WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>In the nineteen seventies, San Francisco cemented itself in history

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<v Speaker 1>as a place with a thriving gay community. It was

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<v Speaker 1>a place people could flock to and live their lives. However,

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<v Speaker 1>though it was a place the LGBTQ community could prosper,

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<v Speaker 1>they had to do so at night, as there were

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<v Speaker 1>still a looming stigma around their way of life. So

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<v Speaker 1>people took to the shadows to have fun and romantic encounters.

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<v Speaker 1>The only problem is that in the shadows, evil also

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<v Speaker 1>is able to fester. It was here that a mysterious

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<v Speaker 1>man would sketch his victims before viciously attacking them under

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<v Speaker 1>the guise of romance. This is the unsolved tale of

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<v Speaker 1>the man simply known as the Doodler.

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<v Speaker 2>My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked Ingram,

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<v Speaker 2>a true crime podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>The following material more mature audience listeners. Hot Coffee, hot Tea,

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<v Speaker 1>and a true crime podcast. I mean, this is going

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<v Speaker 1>to be a good episode, right ready to go. It's

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<v Speaker 1>always a good episode when you have a good drink

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<v Speaker 1>in your hand. And I want to clarify when I

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<v Speaker 1>say a good drink in your hand could be alcoholic,

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<v Speaker 1>could be non right now, we're enjoying non alcoholic ones.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Well it is Friday, though, so you forgot what

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<v Speaker 2>you could have put Carolines in there?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, I know I had carolines earlier this week, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think it was Tuesdays.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, because like Friday, Saturday, Saturday, Sunday. It's like

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<v Speaker 2>kind of fair game. I guess.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I usually irish up my coffee. I guess if

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<v Speaker 1>you want to put in that terms on the weekends,

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<v Speaker 1>and yeah, starting Friday, I usually do that if I want.

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<v Speaker 1>But I took a cheat day this week, so I

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<v Speaker 1>need to make up for it, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>We had a very married life conversation right before this.

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<v Speaker 1>We did. We really did.

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<v Speaker 2>Then had like a fuzzy or something on his eyelid,

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<v Speaker 2>and I like stopped and I was like, can you

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<v Speaker 2>take that? Also, I don't have to stare at it

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<v Speaker 2>this whole hour episode or whatever.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we recorded the intro and Nicole stopped the recording.

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<v Speaker 1>She's like, you need to fucking take care of that.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not staring at that for the next fucking hour

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<v Speaker 1>while we record. So here we are.

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<v Speaker 2>I would literally, I don't know, just like with my

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<v Speaker 2>OCD and shit, I would just be staring at that

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<v Speaker 2>the whole time, like it would not go well.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like a piece of lettuce in someone's teeth or something.

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<v Speaker 1>I gotcha, I feel you.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh anyway, that's what That's what you get for being

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<v Speaker 2>married for fifteen years, I guess.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, and it's only the beginning as long as hey,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what, we enjoying a full life, you know

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<v Speaker 1>what I mean?

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, there you go.

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<v Speaker 1>But we are talking about a unsolved case today. I know,

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<v Speaker 1>I get shipped from you primarily, but a lot a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of other people as well. When all of a

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<v Speaker 1>sudden at the end, it's like, oh my god, it's unsolved.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm warning you flat out this is an unsolved case.

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<v Speaker 1>And I will also warn you I wish I had

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<v Speaker 1>more time to do a deeper dive into this tale.

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<v Speaker 2>Could it have been a deep dive?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, it definitely could be a deep dive. Yeah, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>with all unsolved cases, there is only so much information

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<v Speaker 1>out there, of course, but I just really wish that

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<v Speaker 1>I had more time to really get into the nitty

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<v Speaker 1>gritty of this one. So I'm gonna after this episode,

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<v Speaker 1>I want you guys to Hey, if you feel the

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<v Speaker 1>same way, go ahead and dive deeper into it, because

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<v Speaker 1>I have a feeling it's gonna be worth it. Okay, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>because I know I will be.

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<v Speaker 2>I also have to say that I like, I'm obsessed

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<v Speaker 2>with San Francisco. It's one of my favorite cities.

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<v Speaker 1>I've never been, but everything I've heard it's fabulous.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean that both like in a joking way, ye,

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<v Speaker 1>in a literal just it just sounds fucking fabulous.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I've been there twice, but I haven't been there.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh. Like the last time I was there was

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<v Speaker 2>probably six or so years ago, so it's been a while.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, get prepared to take a little bit of

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<v Speaker 1>a travel back into San Francisco because we are going

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<v Speaker 1>to the nineteen seventies. Okay, So we are diving into

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<v Speaker 1>a time that is far less accepting than the world

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<v Speaker 1>we are living in today. Although I know that there's

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<v Speaker 1>many political and social troubles going on with much of

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<v Speaker 1>the world, so let's just throw that aside. This time

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<v Speaker 1>period that we're going to is definitely still less accepting

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<v Speaker 1>than today now. Despite that, it in fact, it did

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<v Speaker 1>help shape many of the rights and freedoms that people

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<v Speaker 1>do have in the modern age. Because like after the

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<v Speaker 1>gay liberation movement in the late sixties and early seventies,

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<v Speaker 1>the city of San Francisco, like of course, this is

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<v Speaker 1>the United States, became a beacon for the LGBTQ plus

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<v Speaker 1>unity and its people.

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<v Speaker 2>Yep.

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<v Speaker 1>So it was seen as a rare place where people

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<v Speaker 1>in this community could actually live openly, free from you know,

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<v Speaker 1>constant fear of persecution that followed them elsewhere anywhere in

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<v Speaker 1>the world where they would live right. The city's vibrant

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<v Speaker 1>nightlife created opportunities to connect fine community community, like minded individuals,

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<v Speaker 1>and simply exist without shame. But not everyone welcomed this

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<v Speaker 1>new cultural shift. The San Francisco Police Department, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>which had you know, a deeply conservative ties at the time,

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<v Speaker 1>had an official policy against hiring LGBTQ plus officers. In fact,

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<v Speaker 1>in an interview, a police officer outright stated that the

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<v Speaker 1>LGBTQ plus people were quote bad moral characters whah yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and made it clear that they had no intention of

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<v Speaker 1>hiring covert homosexual holy shit.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I guaranteed they had probably some on their force.

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<v Speaker 2>But then those poor individuals.

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<v Speaker 1>Just had to hide it exactly. So that's what we're

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<v Speaker 1>looking at here. There's a lot of this community that's

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<v Speaker 1>the riving and people are flocking to it for this. However,

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<v Speaker 1>they still have to hide who they are. It's just

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<v Speaker 1>this community has its certain areas or clubs or you know,

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<v Speaker 1>nights where they you know, can thrive. Ye, so under

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<v Speaker 1>the daylight, it's kind of like a vampire situation in

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<v Speaker 1>a satirical way. You know, during the day, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you've got to blend in. You you can't really do

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<v Speaker 1>your thing. You got to just wait till the night

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<v Speaker 1>comes and then you can, you know, go out and

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<v Speaker 1>and be what you want to be.

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<v Speaker 2>Which sucks. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, the police regularly rated gay bars, harassed people on

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<v Speaker 1>the streets, and even resorted to physical violence, all which

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<v Speaker 1>rarely made the mainstream news. Because of this, many of

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<v Speaker 1>the community didn't trust the police and often avoided reporting crimes,

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<v Speaker 1>even when they were the victims of some serious offenses themselves.

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<v Speaker 1>The lack of protection led to a significant rise in

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<v Speaker 1>violence against the LGBTQ plus community. In fact, one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and twenty nine people of this community were murdered in

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<v Speaker 1>San Francisco in nineteen seventy four alone, followed by another

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<v Speaker 1>one hundred and thirty one in nineteen seventy five.

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<v Speaker 2>Holy shit, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So you are over. You're nearly three hundred people in

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<v Speaker 1>two years older.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So to help paint this picture, there was an

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<v Speaker 1>incident in nineteen seventy three where a gay man was

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<v Speaker 1>pulled over for a minor traffic violation. Now, this traffic violation,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not exactly sure what it was, whether it was speeding,

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<v Speaker 1>rolling a stop sign, I don't know, that's kind of unclear.

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<v Speaker 1>But what I do know, Yeah, what I do know

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<v Speaker 1>is this traffic stop should have been a routine stop,

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<v Speaker 1>right However, it turned brutal fast. The officers actually beat

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<v Speaker 1>this man so severely that he suffered permanent brain damage. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>he did later receive a six figure settlement, but no

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<v Speaker 1>charges were ever actually filed against the officers.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like, I don't know, I know, I don't even think.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean cool, like you got some money, but not

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<v Speaker 2>like that's not okay.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not okay. But the problem is, what's he going

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<v Speaker 1>to do if he files a complaint, which no formal

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<v Speaker 1>complaint was filed. What's gonna happen of it? It's probably

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<v Speaker 1>even if it does go through, it's going to paint

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<v Speaker 1>a picture on him. Officers are gonna come seeking him out, you.

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<v Speaker 2>Know, probably. But I mean I'm just saying, like your

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<v Speaker 2>health is priceless, right, Like no amount of money is

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<v Speaker 2>gonna like help with that to fix that really.

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<v Speaker 1>Which is exactly why he didn't form a complaint because

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<v Speaker 1>his livelihood, his his well being was more important than

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<v Speaker 1>filing complaint against the officers because it could mean his

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<v Speaker 1>life is on the line if he did.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like so right now he still is able to

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<v Speaker 2>He's still alive.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess exactly, now, I know what you're meaning. Like

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<v Speaker 1>the six figure settlement meant nothing, because it's like your

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<v Speaker 1>health is more important.

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<v Speaker 2>He has like brain damage now, right exactly, I know.

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<v Speaker 1>What you're meaning. It just totally goes along the lines

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<v Speaker 1>of why no formal complat was filed. So but with

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<v Speaker 1>that no complaint being filed, nothing happened to the officers.

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<v Speaker 1>They walked away Scott free.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh that is terrible.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so, like no, like everyone knew that speaking out

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<v Speaker 1>just basically would make things worse, not better. Now, as

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<v Speaker 1>one of the community members put it, quote, even in

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<v Speaker 1>a place like San Francisco, being gay meant living with

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<v Speaker 1>constant judgment. The police were more interested in shutting down

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<v Speaker 1>bars and targeting us in public spaces than protecting us

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<v Speaker 1>from real threats. And this is unfortunately the life that

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<v Speaker 1>many people were living. And honestly, it's even sadder to

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<v Speaker 1>think that this is where people were flocking to because

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<v Speaker 1>this was the best place to be openly gay at

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<v Speaker 1>the time, well as openly gay as you could.

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<v Speaker 2>This is kind of just like piss us off, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like, oh, definitely, Oh well, if I'm infamal,

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<v Speaker 1>honest like, that's that's kind of the worst of the uh,

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<v Speaker 1>discriminatory acts right there. Yeah, I'm telling you kind of

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<v Speaker 1>like the climate of what it's like in the era

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<v Speaker 1>and what it's like in you know, San Francisco, even

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<v Speaker 1>because you know, I'm painting a picture of the times,

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<v Speaker 1>right So the times were bad and it was in

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<v Speaker 1>this climate that you know, fear and distrust led to

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<v Speaker 1>a serial killer named the Doodler to be born, and

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<v Speaker 1>he was able to target gay men relentlessly because of

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<v Speaker 1>this atmosphere. Now, he attacked at least five and possibly

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<v Speaker 1>as many as fourteen people during his serial killing career,

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<v Speaker 1>let's put it that way, leaving behind three survivors because

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<v Speaker 1>you know, of their social status, none of them would

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<v Speaker 1>come forward to testify. So with no conviction, he simply

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<v Speaker 1>faded into history, getting away with these crimes. And that's

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<v Speaker 1>what we're looking at. So let's actually get into the

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<v Speaker 1>events and not just the history of San Francisco and communities.

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<v Speaker 2>Sounds good.

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<v Speaker 1>So in the quiet hours of the night, Ocean Beach

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<v Speaker 1>Golden Gate Park took on an eerie stillness. Now by

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<v Speaker 1>the day it was filled with energy of tourists and

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<v Speaker 1>locals going outside and enjoying San Francisco's you know, green

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<v Speaker 1>spaces and parks and you know, going for leisurely walks, jogs, whatever. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>But after dark that all changed. It was a place

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<v Speaker 1>where people could, you know, slip away and get a

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<v Speaker 1>little privacy in the dark for some well private encounters.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I see what you're saying.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So on this day, it was just before two

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<v Speaker 1>am on Sunday, January twenty seventh, nineteen seventy four, when

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<v Speaker 1>a man's body was found near the water's edge at

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<v Speaker 1>Ocean Beach. It was close to the eastern boundary of

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<v Speaker 1>Golden Gate Park, he had been stabbed multiple times. His

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<v Speaker 1>hands had deep defensive wounds, which of course suggests that

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<v Speaker 1>there was a desperate struggle to survive as he likely

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<v Speaker 1>tried to escape. You know, the victim or sorry, the

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<v Speaker 1>the culprit, the attacker.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>When authorities searched the man's body and effort to try

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<v Speaker 1>and identify him, they discovered that whoever it had killed

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<v Speaker 1>him had also taken the man's identification, leaving him as

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<v Speaker 1>an anonymous John Doe for now. The early signs of

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<v Speaker 1>rigamortis were setting in on the remains, and it suggested

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<v Speaker 1>that the two investigators that he had been murdered somewhere

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<v Speaker 1>between late Saturday night and in the early hours of

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<v Speaker 1>Sunday morning, the same morning which his body was discovered.

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<v Speaker 1>Eventually the victim would be identified, and he was found

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<v Speaker 1>to be forty nine year old Gerald Earl Cavanaugh, a

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<v Speaker 1>Canadian immigrant who had made San Francisco his home. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>not a whole lot is known about Gerald and what

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<v Speaker 1>his life was like, but we do know that he

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<v Speaker 1>worked in a mattress factory and was practicing Catholic. Also,

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<v Speaker 1>on his corner report, under marital status, the word never

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<v Speaker 1>married was put which was also likely a subtle stab

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<v Speaker 1>at his identity as a potential gay man.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, not necessarily, but yeah, not necessarily, but it how

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<v Speaker 2>would the coroner know that he's never married? I guess, Oh, geez,

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<v Speaker 2>oh gosh, okay, I guess yes, wow, huh.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean at a time where you know, marying gay

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<v Speaker 1>was highly illegal and you couldn't do it.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Okay, my brain just didn't, like, doesn't go there,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess, like, which is good.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it means that, yeah, you're kind of a little

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<v Speaker 1>more on the innocent side and not someone who would

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<v Speaker 1>think that, oh, you know, gay people can't get married,

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<v Speaker 1>Like that's honestly, in today's society, that's where we should

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<v Speaker 1>be at, like people can get married, Like what are

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<v Speaker 1>you're talking about? Yeah, to just be a standard, but

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<v Speaker 1>unfortunately that's not always the case.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So that was kind of like, yeah, that meant okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I see.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Now, where his body was found near water would

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<v Speaker 1>prove to be rather significant, or at least in these

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<v Speaker 1>parks in this area, but that comes later. Now, as

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<v Speaker 1>I already already mentioned, at the time, violence against you know,

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<v Speaker 1>this LGBTQ plus community was disturbingly common and in this case,

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<v Speaker 1>police had little evidence to work with still, though they

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<v Speaker 1>collected biological samples at the scene, though forensic technology wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>quite advanced enough to make anything any use of them.

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<v Speaker 1>Yet all they know is that they had, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a murder against someone in this community, which honestly isn't

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<v Speaker 1>all that uncommon, as we discussed earlier, and they're going

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<v Speaker 1>to collect some some samples, some evidence and beyond their day.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm curious if they even like gave it there

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<v Speaker 2>all really, Like, I don't know if you'll get to that,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm curious.

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<v Speaker 1>Well by the statter to them, by the sounds of it,

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<v Speaker 1>the police were doing their job, yes, okay, I mean

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<v Speaker 1>the only problem is, like, as I mentioned, there's like

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<v Speaker 1>one hundred and thirty plus murders in a year. So

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<v Speaker 1>how can you give it you're all on a case

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<v Speaker 1>when there's that many cases, you know what I mean?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that's just murders like within this community, right, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>so I'm sure there's more than that, but that's just of.

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<v Speaker 1>This that's just of this community in this city.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Yeah, that is not okay, that is so many

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<v Speaker 2>I know, holy shit.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, Gerald was laid to rest on Holy Cross Catholic

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<v Speaker 1>Cemetery in Colma, and his murder was added to a

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<v Speaker 1>long list of unsolved cases. As the months passed, more

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<v Speaker 1>victims followed, and a pattern began to emerge among them.

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<v Speaker 1>It was when another man by the name of Joseph

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<v Speaker 1>or also known as Jay Stevens so first named Joseph,

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<v Speaker 1>last name Stevens, but we'll be calling him Jay, was

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<v Speaker 1>found deceased, investigators began to connect the dots between the two.

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<v Speaker 1>Now originally from Texas, Jay had come to San Francisco

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<v Speaker 1>in his late teens, like so many others, drawn to

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<v Speaker 1>the city with promise of freedom in his sexuality. As

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<v Speaker 1>he and so many others in the community saw it,

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<v Speaker 1>San Francisco was a haven for young people seeking to

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<v Speaker 1>live their life, you know, and be themselves without fear.

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<v Speaker 1>And Jay lived life that blurred lines between performance and reality.

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<v Speaker 1>So by day, Jay navigated the world as a man,

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<v Speaker 1>but by night, under the bright lights of San Francisco's

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<v Speaker 1>club scene, Jay transformed into a glamorized female impersonator, entertaining

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<v Speaker 1>the crowds with dazzling costumes and lip sync performances. Or

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00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:22.679
<v Speaker 1>simply put, Jay was a drag queen performer, and by

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<v Speaker 1>the sounds of it, he was fucking good at what

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<v Speaker 1>he did.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>While it's unclear what pronouns Jay personally identified with, historical

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<v Speaker 1>records suggests Jay lived publicly as a man so like

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<v Speaker 1>outside his performances as such, So that's what I'll be

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<v Speaker 1>referring to Jay as is, you know, he in him.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the most famous venues in San Francisco's drag

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<v Speaker 1>scene was a place called Finuccinos, a club that had

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<v Speaker 1>been a cornerstone in the city's night life since it

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00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:52.440
<v Speaker 1>started as a speakeasy in nineteen thirty three until it

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<v Speaker 1>eventually closed in nineteen ninety nine. Now, the word finaccio finccio,

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<v Speaker 1>not finicccino, I should correct myself there. It's finaccio means

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<v Speaker 1>fennel in Italian. But it was also used as a

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00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:10.480
<v Speaker 1>slur against gay men. Now regardless, Finiccchio eventually became known

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<v Speaker 1>for its high caliber drag performances, which I honestly kind

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00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:17.640
<v Speaker 1>of fucking love because it's like, we're taking this slur

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<v Speaker 1>against the community and we're using it to like make

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<v Speaker 1>us proud of our community, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Okay, you know what I'm meanure. Yeah, I wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>sure how that was going to go. Like, okay, so

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<v Speaker 2>they like it actually is a welcomed place, like they

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<v Speaker 2>are welcoming.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, no, this is it's. Finccio's is a place

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<v Speaker 1>known for its like drag performances, Entertainers donned extravagant gowns,

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<v Speaker 1>lip syncs popular songs.

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<v Speaker 2>It was.

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<v Speaker 1>It was unlike much of the other like dingier or

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<v Speaker 1>even like grittier underground, kind of like LGBTQ plus bars.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>Finccio's had a high class, polished and even a tour

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<v Speaker 1>tourist friendly reputation. So this was a gay hot spot

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00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:02.640
<v Speaker 1>to put it in short term, like a safe place definitely.

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<v Speaker 1>Now the club was located in North Beach and it

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<v Speaker 1>had a culturally diverse neighborhood that was home to poets, punks,

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<v Speaker 1>Indian immigrants, and of course the LGBTQ plus. It was

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<v Speaker 1>here that Finaccios became a landmark of its time. Now

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<v Speaker 1>j had been a fixture in the city's drag scene

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<v Speaker 1>for nearly a decade at this point before he died,

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<v Speaker 1>and he had just secured himself a summer performance spot

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<v Speaker 1>at Finiccio's. It was a dream come true for him,

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<v Speaker 1>and a significant milestone in his career as well, one

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<v Speaker 1>that unfortunately would have been cut short.

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<v Speaker 2>Like did he get to a perform there at all?

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<v Speaker 1>Or do you know, as far as I'm aware, no,

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<v Speaker 1>he did not.

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<v Speaker 2>Ah shit.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, In recent months, Jay had been exploring comedy as

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<v Speaker 1>well as a new creative outlet, expanding beyond the traditional

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00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:54.079
<v Speaker 1>drag female impersonators and that sort of thing. Right, He's

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<v Speaker 1>trying new avenues of his repertoire, and on the night

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<v Speaker 1>of Monday, June twenty fourth, nineteen seventy four, Jay was

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<v Speaker 1>last spotted leaving the Cabaret Club, another North Beach hotspot.

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<v Speaker 1>It's unknown whether Jay had left alone that night or

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<v Speaker 1>if he had left the club with someone else, but

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<v Speaker 1>police later suspected that he had at least arranged to

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<v Speaker 1>meet someone that night, suggesting no witnesses had actually reported

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<v Speaker 1>being seen accompanying him outside the bar. Early the next morning,

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<v Speaker 1>a woman was walking her dog through Golden Gate Park

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<v Speaker 1>and she made a grim discovery Jay's body laying in

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<v Speaker 1>the bushes near Spreckle's Lake. He had been stabbed three times,

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00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:38.079
<v Speaker 1>and blood around his nose and mouth suggested he had

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<v Speaker 1>been attacked violently. His wallet his jewelry were missing, preventing

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<v Speaker 1>immediate identification. Now, of course, he would be later identified, right,

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<v Speaker 1>but this was becoming to be a little bit of

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<v Speaker 1>a pattern already.

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<v Speaker 2>Man. He seemed I mean, I'm sure the other one,

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<v Speaker 2>the uh Jared I think was the other guy's name, Gerald, Gerald,

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<v Speaker 2>like both awesome guys. But Jay just seemed like he

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<v Speaker 2>had so much like potential and he was like this

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<v Speaker 2>creative person that was like, you know, making a name

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<v Speaker 2>for himself and like the community kind of.

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<v Speaker 1>Well exactly, and that's what he was doing. He was

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<v Speaker 1>literally making a name for himself. Yeah, I mean he's

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<v Speaker 1>about to perform at the yeah, the place to be

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<v Speaker 1>for drag, right, So I mean, good on him, But unfortunately, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>he fell victim to the wrong person. Now, the scene

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<v Speaker 1>born unsettling similarities to the murder of Jerald Cavanaugh. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>Gerald's body had been found just a mile away on

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<v Speaker 1>Ocean Beach earlier that year, from where Jay was now found.

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<v Speaker 1>Investigators also discovered Jay's abandoned car parked near the crime scene,

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<v Speaker 1>leading them to believe that he had either driven himself

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<v Speaker 1>there or had been accompanied by someone he trusted. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>given the secluded nature of the spot, it was likely

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<v Speaker 1>chosen as a place for a private encounter, something that

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00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:56.440
<v Speaker 1>was rather common practice for you know, gay men at

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00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:59.440
<v Speaker 1>the time. They're trying to be openly affection in public

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00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.000
<v Speaker 1>and that carried risks. So, hey, you're in a park

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00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:05.920
<v Speaker 1>where it's a little bit more quiet, little dark people

395
00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:10.160
<v Speaker 1>can't see they're doing their thing, right now, Most signs

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00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:13.359
<v Speaker 1>pointed to Jay Willingly going to Spreckels Lake expecting to

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<v Speaker 1>have this intimate moment with someone new. Instead, however, this

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<v Speaker 1>encounter didn't turn out out as expected, and instead the

399
00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:25.319
<v Speaker 1>moment of romance met in violence. Now, whether the killer

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00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:28.599
<v Speaker 1>was someone that he met at this cabaret club or

401
00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:31.160
<v Speaker 1>perhaps was a stranger looking in the shadows of the

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00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:34.440
<v Speaker 1>park remains a mystery because there is a potential that

403
00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:38.200
<v Speaker 1>he went there to meet someone and along the way

404
00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:43.279
<v Speaker 1>someone else crossed his path, right right, So yep. Now,

405
00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:45.160
<v Speaker 1>What was becoming clear to you authorities, though, was that

406
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<v Speaker 1>San Francisco's LGBTQ plus community was being targeted and the

407
00:21:50.119 --> 00:21:53.279
<v Speaker 1>murders were likely far from over and they were right.

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<v Speaker 1>Claus Chrisman was a thirty one year old German national

409
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<v Speaker 1>visiting San Francisco, and he was staying with friends mister

410
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<v Speaker 1>and Missus Booker Williams. He had been in the city

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00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:06.400
<v Speaker 1>for three months while his wife and two children remained

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<v Speaker 1>at Germany. Early on the morning of Sunday, July seventh,

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventy four, a woman, again walking her dog, was

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<v Speaker 1>the one to make the discovery of finding Klaus's body

415
00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:21.920
<v Speaker 1>lying in Lincoln Way, a street connecting Golden Gate Park

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<v Speaker 1>and Ocean Beach.

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<v Speaker 2>Gosh, is it the same woman? Could you imagine that? Man,

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<v Speaker 2>brig I would definitely be changing.

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<v Speaker 1>My root No kidding, And honest, we've had this conversation before,

420
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<v Speaker 1>like how often does a body get discovered by someone

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<v Speaker 1>going out in water?

422
00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:41.359
<v Speaker 2>I know, I just hate that. I don't know. You

423
00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:44.920
<v Speaker 2>kind of envision like how you would act, but I

424
00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:48.039
<v Speaker 2>don't even think you can predict that. Really, No, it's terrible.

425
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:49.759
<v Speaker 1>But I mean, honestly, if you look at it, there

426
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:52.359
<v Speaker 1>is a silver lining in everything. And the silver lining

427
00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.000
<v Speaker 1>I pulled from from that of you know, you go

428
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:56.559
<v Speaker 1>and walk your dog, you're going to find a body

429
00:22:56.599 --> 00:22:59.839
<v Speaker 1>because that happens lots. The silver lining I find is

430
00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:04.480
<v Speaker 1>dogs make you active, dogs will get you outside because

431
00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:07.400
<v Speaker 1>it's not very often that just someone walking alone finds

432
00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:10.839
<v Speaker 1>a body. You find someone walking a dog, so they're

433
00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:13.880
<v Speaker 1>getting outside and enjoying time with a companion. That's the

434
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:14.440
<v Speaker 1>silver line.

435
00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:16.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that poor dog's never going to get to go

436
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:19.119
<v Speaker 2>for a walk again. I'm just kidding.

437
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:22.440
<v Speaker 1>They'll get a private yard. They'll buy a house and

438
00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:25.160
<v Speaker 1>have a yard, and that's where the dog will get Yeah.

439
00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:29.200
<v Speaker 1>But anyways, I digress, enough of the jokes. Back into this. Now,

440
00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:31.720
<v Speaker 1>where the body was found was only mere two miles

441
00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:34.519
<v Speaker 1>from Spreckles Lake where Jay Stevens had been found, and

442
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:37.000
<v Speaker 1>less than a mile from Ocean Beach in the crime

443
00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:40.519
<v Speaker 1>scene where Gerald Cavanaugh had been found. Now, the attack

444
00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:44.920
<v Speaker 1>on close was particularly brutal. One investigator, who had also

445
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:48.599
<v Speaker 1>worked on the infamous Zodiac killer case described it as

446
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:54.000
<v Speaker 1>the most savage stabbing he had ever seen. The coroner

447
00:23:54.039 --> 00:23:57.160
<v Speaker 1>even suggested that the killer may have attempted to decapitate

448
00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:02.440
<v Speaker 1>him gosh. Now, like the other victims, Klaus's identification was missing,

449
00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:05.720
<v Speaker 1>leaving him classified as a John Doe until authorities could

450
00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:06.599
<v Speaker 1>find his identity.

451
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:10.079
<v Speaker 2>What the hell is with the decapitation? I don't understand

452
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:12.680
<v Speaker 2>why someone would even like go there. You know that

453
00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:16.039
<v Speaker 2>seems so weird and gross.

454
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:19.319
<v Speaker 1>The way I look at it, there's two possibilities. There's one,

455
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:25.400
<v Speaker 1>there's aggression being taken out, and two, I think morbid curiosity.

456
00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:27.799
<v Speaker 1>Those are the two reasons that I can think of

457
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:28.359
<v Speaker 1>in my head.

458
00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:30.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I guess so. I mean, you watch a lot

459
00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:34.759
<v Speaker 2>of movies and stuff and in war or or like

460
00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:36.920
<v Speaker 2>any kind of fight. We watched like a Viking show

461
00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:39.599
<v Speaker 2>the other day and like, yeah, there was a decapitation

462
00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:43.200
<v Speaker 2>in there, So maybe it comes from entertainment and you're like, oh,

463
00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:44.200
<v Speaker 2>I wonder what that would be.

464
00:24:44.119 --> 00:24:47.119
<v Speaker 1>Like I don't know, and if we're going back into history,

465
00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:49.680
<v Speaker 1>like removing someone's head like that, it was. It was

466
00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:52.359
<v Speaker 1>a tactic of It was a scare tactic, right, Yeah,

467
00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:54.680
<v Speaker 1>like a head on a pike outside, you know, a village,

468
00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:57.279
<v Speaker 1>removing the king's head and holding it up so his

469
00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:00.079
<v Speaker 1>army could see those sort of things. It was a

470
00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:03.200
<v Speaker 1>scare tactic and like a thing of power removing the

471
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:06.119
<v Speaker 1>head of someone. So maybe there is that power dynamic

472
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:09.480
<v Speaker 1>in there as well. Okay, Yeah, Now, details from the

473
00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:12.079
<v Speaker 1>coroner's report painted a picture of white what might have

474
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:16.359
<v Speaker 1>led Klaus to that secluded area. Now, his pants were unzipped,

475
00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:18.960
<v Speaker 1>suggesting that he had gone there for a consensual encounter

476
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:22.599
<v Speaker 1>before being attacked. In his pocket, police found a tube

477
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:25.160
<v Speaker 1>of face paint, and beneath his clothes, he wore bright

478
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:30.359
<v Speaker 1>orange bikini shorts. Now, these details led investigators to speculate

479
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.440
<v Speaker 1>that he may have secretly been involved in drag performances,

480
00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:37.640
<v Speaker 1>though they were uncertain. This was the third murder happening

481
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:42.240
<v Speaker 1>in close proximity to the others and with strikingly similar circumstances,

482
00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:45.920
<v Speaker 1>Police officially began investigating the killings as the work of

483
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:50.000
<v Speaker 1>a serial killer. Their working theory was that the killer

484
00:25:50.079 --> 00:25:54.319
<v Speaker 1>was motivated by internalized shame of their own sexuality, engaging

485
00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:58.079
<v Speaker 1>in sexual encounters with men before turning violent, either during

486
00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:02.359
<v Speaker 1>or immediately afterwards. Now there is also the potential, I

487
00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:05.400
<v Speaker 1>do want to point out that he led them there

488
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:09.039
<v Speaker 1>and then never did actually have these encounters and raged

489
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:09.640
<v Speaker 1>prior to.

490
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:13.279
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, but I yeah, even like at the start

491
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:15.880
<v Speaker 2>of this, I was wondering if he himself, you know,

492
00:26:16.680 --> 00:26:20.720
<v Speaker 2>was struggling or identified as differently than you know, what

493
00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:22.319
<v Speaker 2>he actually wanted to be and stuff.

494
00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:27.440
<v Speaker 1>So now, the Sentinel and LGBTQ plus publication that followed

495
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:30.680
<v Speaker 1>the case more closely than mainstream media did, because hey,

496
00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:33.079
<v Speaker 1>you know, mainstream media didn't care too much to publish

497
00:26:33.079 --> 00:26:36.079
<v Speaker 1>that about what the community was suffering, and instead just

498
00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:40.839
<v Speaker 1>went with hey, you know, literal mainstream. But I digress now.

499
00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:43.279
<v Speaker 1>The Sentinel ran a series of articles in August of

500
00:26:43.319 --> 00:26:46.599
<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventy four reporting that police had formally linked the

501
00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:49.839
<v Speaker 1>three murders. In one article from August ninth, they summarized

502
00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:54.359
<v Speaker 1>the growing concerns quote all apparently involved the victim meeting

503
00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:57.519
<v Speaker 1>someone who suggested driving to a remote area such as

504
00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:01.440
<v Speaker 1>the beach or Golden Gate Park, were viciously stabbed front

505
00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:05.240
<v Speaker 1>and back. All three were stripped of identification and property.

506
00:27:06.359 --> 00:27:09.440
<v Speaker 1>A police bulletin for the reinforce the departments perspective on

507
00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:13.359
<v Speaker 1>the case as well. Quote victims one and two had

508
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:17.440
<v Speaker 1>homosexual propensities, and due to underclothing and makeup in victim

509
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:22.680
<v Speaker 1>number three, Klaus Chrisman in his pocket, he also may

510
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:27.000
<v Speaker 1>have the same propensities. Now, I have to say, propensities

511
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:28.759
<v Speaker 1>is a new word for me, so I don't even

512
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:30.799
<v Speaker 1>really know exactly what that means. But I'm sure we

513
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.240
<v Speaker 1>can all assume. I'm sure you guys know I've never

514
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:34.960
<v Speaker 1>heard that word in my life. It's a new one,

515
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:37.519
<v Speaker 1>so it was tough for me to actually pronounce it.

516
00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:40.920
<v Speaker 1>But now, despite recognizing the emerging pattern in the three

517
00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:45.240
<v Speaker 1>different cases, police faced some challenges. Other violent deaths were

518
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:47.799
<v Speaker 1>also occurring across the city. Now I kind of alluded

519
00:27:47.799 --> 00:27:51.440
<v Speaker 1>to this earlier. Officers were being pulled in multiple different

520
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:54.279
<v Speaker 1>directions as they were chasing leads from case to case.

521
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:57.680
<v Speaker 1>So at the time some speculated that San Francisco had

522
00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:02.519
<v Speaker 1>not just one, but even three step active serial killers

523
00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:03.839
<v Speaker 1>operating at once.

524
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:09.119
<v Speaker 2>Well, honestly, that's not surprising with those numbers, right, it's not. So.

525
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:12.799
<v Speaker 1>While I don't know one hundred percent, this is my

526
00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:17.279
<v Speaker 1>speculation that the authorities were doing their job, regardless of

527
00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:20.759
<v Speaker 1>the community being LGBTQ plus whether it was you know what,

528
00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:24.279
<v Speaker 1>a straight white person, color person, I don't know, regardless

529
00:28:24.279 --> 00:28:26.359
<v Speaker 1>of who the person was, they were treating a murder

530
00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:27.960
<v Speaker 1>case like a murder case, and they were trying to.

531
00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:30.200
<v Speaker 2>Solve that case. Well, we can help, yes.

532
00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:33.519
<v Speaker 1>We can hope, and that is my assumption. But because

533
00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:38.039
<v Speaker 1>of the sheer volume of you know, attacks and violence

534
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:41.039
<v Speaker 1>that were occurring, it was taking their attention away from

535
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:41.880
<v Speaker 1>many of the cases.

536
00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:45.920
<v Speaker 2>Well then also too, I'm just kind of thinking, how

537
00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:49.039
<v Speaker 2>easily would they be able to necessarily chat with the

538
00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:53.000
<v Speaker 2>community that, you know, they had treated so poorly. These

539
00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:56.480
<v Speaker 2>these people who could be like helpful might not want

540
00:28:56.519 --> 00:28:58.480
<v Speaker 2>to talk to them, which is totally fair.

541
00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:02.279
<v Speaker 1>We'll get into that. Oh okay, yeah, trust me, we'll

542
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:05.279
<v Speaker 1>get into that now. In response to everything that was

543
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:08.160
<v Speaker 1>going on, police ramped up their presence in the LGBTQ

544
00:29:08.279 --> 00:29:13.400
<v Speaker 1>plus spaces, visiting bars and clubs in the Castro, the Tenderloin,

545
00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:16.519
<v Speaker 1>and other districts known for their nightlife. It's actually funny,

546
00:29:16.519 --> 00:29:18.599
<v Speaker 1>I recognized the Tenderloin. I don't know if that came

547
00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:21.920
<v Speaker 1>from another case that we covered before, potentially, but I've

548
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:23.680
<v Speaker 1>heard of that place before.

549
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:24.240
<v Speaker 2>It could have.

550
00:29:25.839 --> 00:29:28.759
<v Speaker 1>Now they questioned patrons, hoping to identify, you know, a

551
00:29:28.839 --> 00:29:32.759
<v Speaker 1>suspect or uncover some sort of connections between victims. Right,

552
00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:36.640
<v Speaker 1>But even as the investigation intensified, the murders weren't stopping.

553
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:41.039
<v Speaker 1>Frederick Elmer Kappan, a thirty two year old from Washington State,

554
00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:44.039
<v Speaker 1>had served as a medical corpsman in the Navy during

555
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:47.279
<v Speaker 1>the Vietnam War. He even earned recognition in his service

556
00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:50.359
<v Speaker 1>after his time in the military, he moved to San Francisco,

557
00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:53.759
<v Speaker 1>where he worked as a registered nurse. Despite being far

558
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:57.119
<v Speaker 1>from home, Frederick remained close with his family, particularly his

559
00:29:57.119 --> 00:30:01.599
<v Speaker 1>grandparents and sister in Port Angelus, Washington. But on Monday

560
00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:05.160
<v Speaker 1>May twelfth, nineteen seventy five, a hiker found Frederick's lifeless

561
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:07.839
<v Speaker 1>body laying in the sand dunes just a quarter mile

562
00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:12.039
<v Speaker 1>south of Ocean Beach, the same area, same area where

563
00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:15.720
<v Speaker 1>the first known victim had been found. Now, unlike the others,

564
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:18.839
<v Speaker 1>there were clear drag marks in the sand leading to

565
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:22.680
<v Speaker 1>his remains, which showed that he had been moved after

566
00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:25.720
<v Speaker 1>he was killed, and these drag marks suggested he had

567
00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:27.279
<v Speaker 1>been moved about twenty feet.

568
00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:32.519
<v Speaker 2>That is so creepy. Yeah, oh, the drag marks like

569
00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:35.440
<v Speaker 2>and I'm assuming this hiker you know, what's that? And

570
00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:38.359
<v Speaker 2>when looked like, oh gosh.

571
00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:40.440
<v Speaker 1>Now it also, as far as I can tell, this

572
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:41.519
<v Speaker 1>hiker didn't have a dog.

573
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:43.680
<v Speaker 2>I know, I was wondering where the hell is his dog?

574
00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:46.759
<v Speaker 2>His dog would have gone and looked for now.

575
00:30:46.759 --> 00:30:49.480
<v Speaker 1>The coroner estimated that he had been dead for approximately

576
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:52.400
<v Speaker 1>ten hours, placing his death or his time of death

577
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:55.079
<v Speaker 1>on the night of Sunday, May tenth, he had been

578
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:57.960
<v Speaker 1>stabbed multiple times, with fatal wounds to his heart and

579
00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:01.160
<v Speaker 1>a order. Once again. The murder had taken place in

580
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:05.960
<v Speaker 1>an isolated outdoor location, secluded enough for a private encounter

581
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:08.960
<v Speaker 1>but also for a predator to strike without witness.

582
00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:13.319
<v Speaker 2>It's interesting that because it doesn't seem like he's necessarily

583
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:17.240
<v Speaker 2>hiding the bodies per se, right, So it's interesting that

584
00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:19.839
<v Speaker 2>he would have like even dragged it at all.

585
00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:24.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, there is potentially that maybe the spot like maybe

586
00:31:24.039 --> 00:31:25.400
<v Speaker 1>it was a little bit up on a hump and

587
00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:26.720
<v Speaker 1>it was a little bit more visible, so he's just

588
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:28.279
<v Speaker 1>drugging out of view or something.

589
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:30.759
<v Speaker 2>You know. Yeah, I guess give him.

590
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:33.079
<v Speaker 1>More time to get away and you know, close that

591
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:35.240
<v Speaker 1>gap or so widen the gap of you know, when

592
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:37.839
<v Speaker 1>it was found. So who knows. It's hard to say.

593
00:31:38.839 --> 00:31:42.119
<v Speaker 1>Maybe a wolf grabbed him. Maybe I don't. I'm joking,

594
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:45.400
<v Speaker 1>but you know, used to say, who knows. Now. Frederick

595
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:48.319
<v Speaker 1>was now the fourth confirmed victim in what was clearly

596
00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:51.119
<v Speaker 1>a pattern, but the San Francisco Police Department was still

597
00:31:51.240 --> 00:31:54.359
<v Speaker 1>overwhelmed as they were juggling multiple homicide cases at a

598
00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:57.519
<v Speaker 1>time and trying to determine even which ones were linked

599
00:31:57.559 --> 00:31:59.759
<v Speaker 1>to each other and which ones would be linked in

600
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:03.480
<v Speaker 1>this case. Right, So, five months after Frederick's murder, the

601
00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:07.480
<v Speaker 1>San Francisco Police Department finally released a composite sketch of

602
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:10.599
<v Speaker 1>a suspect. Now, the man they were looking for was

603
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:13.559
<v Speaker 1>described as a black man between nineteen and twenty two

604
00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:17.480
<v Speaker 1>years old, slim, around five foot ten and six foot tall,

605
00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:21.599
<v Speaker 1>and often seeing navy style watch cap. He was known

606
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:24.599
<v Speaker 1>to frequent bars and restaurants in the Upper Marquee and

607
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:29.200
<v Speaker 1>Castro area. Investigators suspected he might have been an art student,

608
00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:32.480
<v Speaker 1>as he had a habit of sketching his victims before

609
00:32:32.599 --> 00:32:37.279
<v Speaker 1>luring them away. Now, despite the progress, the sketch that

610
00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:42.400
<v Speaker 1>was made of this suspect was never made public. Yeah,

611
00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:45.759
<v Speaker 1>which was strange. Now, clearly the police knew more than

612
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:47.400
<v Speaker 1>they were letting on because there was a lot of

613
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:50.720
<v Speaker 1>details released in this They had apparently even identified an

614
00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:54.440
<v Speaker 1>actual suspect. Clearly, Now, when I say they had identified

615
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:57.559
<v Speaker 1>a suspect, I mean they had identified a suspect because

616
00:32:58.759 --> 00:33:02.440
<v Speaker 1>they had someone who is a suspect who reportedly confessed

617
00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:05.279
<v Speaker 1>his actions to a therapist in one of his sessions,

618
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:11.000
<v Speaker 1>confessing to the murders. In this session, what authorities even

619
00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:14.839
<v Speaker 1>spoke to this therapist confirming that a patient, yes, had

620
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:20.559
<v Speaker 1>admitted these killings, but without witnessing sorry, any witnesses coming forward.

621
00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:23.079
<v Speaker 1>Apparently their hands were tied and they could do nothing.

622
00:33:24.039 --> 00:33:27.640
<v Speaker 1>Huh huh, because who's to say this is an actual confession, right?

623
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:30.400
<v Speaker 1>Police might might have questioned this guy. We don't know

624
00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:32.279
<v Speaker 1>because this has happened behind the scenes. Might have questioned

625
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:33.319
<v Speaker 1>this guy and he's like, I don't know what you're

626
00:33:33.319 --> 00:33:36.480
<v Speaker 1>talking about. No, wow, So what can they do?

627
00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:40.599
<v Speaker 2>Oh man? Okay? And like the therapist is allowed to

628
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:44.160
<v Speaker 2>probably I know, there's like so much with confidentiality, right,

629
00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:47.799
<v Speaker 2>but they're allowed to spill the beans there.

630
00:33:48.119 --> 00:33:51.599
<v Speaker 1>I think when it comes to harm of an individual, yeah,

631
00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:54.200
<v Speaker 1>so like harm of yourself or someone else. If you're

632
00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:56.119
<v Speaker 1>like I'm gonna hurt myself, yeah, they can call in,

633
00:33:56.240 --> 00:33:59.319
<v Speaker 1>like this guy's gonna hurt himself, right, or it's like

634
00:33:59.319 --> 00:34:01.160
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna kill some one or I have killed someone.

635
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:04.640
<v Speaker 1>It's like, you know, imagine.

636
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:06.680
<v Speaker 2>Just sitting in a room with this person a and

637
00:34:06.680 --> 00:34:08.159
<v Speaker 2>they confessing shit like that.

638
00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:14.039
<v Speaker 1>No kidding. Now, That same publication, The Sentinel was dedicated

639
00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:16.360
<v Speaker 1>to covering this case, and once reported that you know,

640
00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:19.280
<v Speaker 1>police had detained this man fitting the suspects description at

641
00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:25.360
<v Speaker 1>a nightclub. Witnesses had even seen him offering sketches to patrons.

642
00:34:26.679 --> 00:34:33.440
<v Speaker 1>Now officers approached him and allegedly he dropped a butcher knife. Yeah,

643
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:36.639
<v Speaker 1>the man. Psychiatrists later confirmed that he confessed these murders.

644
00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.920
<v Speaker 1>But still, regardless of the butcher knife the apparent confession,

645
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:41.840
<v Speaker 1>nothing came of it.

646
00:34:42.599 --> 00:34:43.760
<v Speaker 2>Hmm. Okay.

647
00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:49.159
<v Speaker 1>Now I mentioned that without witnesses the police couldn't do anything.

648
00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:52.119
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, and I was just thinking too, I guess

649
00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:55.280
<v Speaker 2>they don't really like have DNA and all that sort

650
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:58.599
<v Speaker 2>of jazz really back then either, exactly. Now.

651
00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:05.719
<v Speaker 1>The unfortunate part, though, was police technically weren't without witnesses. See,

652
00:35:05.719 --> 00:35:10.920
<v Speaker 1>there were actually three witnesses, three men who had encountered

653
00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:15.639
<v Speaker 1>the man and survived. One of these survivors was a

654
00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:18.440
<v Speaker 1>well known entertainer, and he recounted a meeting with a

655
00:35:18.440 --> 00:35:23.000
<v Speaker 1>young man who offered to draw his portrait. Another survivor

656
00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:26.360
<v Speaker 1>was a European diplomat. A similar experience was had and

657
00:35:26.440 --> 00:35:28.719
<v Speaker 1>he had approached it was approached by a man who

658
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:33.039
<v Speaker 1>sketched him before attempting to take him somewhere private. Now

659
00:35:33.079 --> 00:35:35.480
<v Speaker 1>apparently he was moments away from going home with him

660
00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:38.239
<v Speaker 1>until he dropped a knife from out of his coat.

661
00:35:38.679 --> 00:35:41.960
<v Speaker 2>Gosh, why is he just dropping butcher knife from his coat?

662
00:35:41.960 --> 00:35:43.320
<v Speaker 2>That is I don't know, not Okay.

663
00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:46.880
<v Speaker 1>Now, a third survivor was actually attacked and was even

664
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:52.440
<v Speaker 1>stabbed six times, but managed to escape. The only problem

665
00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:55.840
<v Speaker 1>was none of them were willing to work with police

666
00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:59.920
<v Speaker 1>or testify really because they were concerned for their own safety.

667
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:02.239
<v Speaker 1>They were that afraid of police.

668
00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh jeez, oh, I hate that.

669
00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:08.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So I remember when you were saying that if

670
00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:10.800
<v Speaker 1>only they work with police, Yeah, I said, we'll talk

671
00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:11.239
<v Speaker 1>about that.

672
00:36:11.719 --> 00:36:13.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're here, we're talking about that.

673
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:17.000
<v Speaker 1>They were not willing to because of that stigma because

674
00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:19.199
<v Speaker 1>you know, because of how they were treated.

675
00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:24.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which is just so terrible, because like it could

676
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:27.519
<v Speaker 2>save lives and stuff, right, But then I mean, you

677
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:32.800
<v Speaker 2>gotta protect yourself too, right, So that's just a really

678
00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:33.599
<v Speaker 2>tough position.

679
00:36:33.880 --> 00:36:38.559
<v Speaker 1>It's seriously tough and very unfortunate. Now in nineteen seventy

680
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:40.960
<v Speaker 1>San Francisco, we also have to talk about, like it's

681
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:43.599
<v Speaker 1>not just the you know, fear of the police. They

682
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.840
<v Speaker 1>were also afraid of, you know, being publicly identified as gay,

683
00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:52.079
<v Speaker 1>which could destroy careers, reputations, break apart families. You know,

684
00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:56.000
<v Speaker 1>many of these men probably or these individuals were probably married,

685
00:36:56.199 --> 00:36:58.840
<v Speaker 1>right and living a day life, you know, covering their

686
00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:01.119
<v Speaker 1>their true set els so they could go out and

687
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:06.400
<v Speaker 1>live at night and do what they really wanted to do. Yeah,

688
00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:09.400
<v Speaker 1>so they had These men had survived their encounter, but

689
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:12.400
<v Speaker 1>they were just not willing to risk coming forward and

690
00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:16.320
<v Speaker 1>without that cooperation, police had no case.

691
00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:17.960
<v Speaker 2>Now.

692
00:37:18.039 --> 00:37:20.840
<v Speaker 1>During this time, a writer by the name of Armistead

693
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:24.039
<v Speaker 1>Maupin was documenting his life in San Francisco through the

694
00:37:24.039 --> 00:37:27.440
<v Speaker 1>Tales of a City series. In his writings, he even

695
00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:31.719
<v Speaker 1>referenced the elusive murderer known as the Doodler, describing him

696
00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:34.679
<v Speaker 1>as a sinister black man who sat at the bar

697
00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:39.239
<v Speaker 1>and sketched your face before taking you home to murder you.

698
00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:42.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't even know how that would work like nowadays.

699
00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:46.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm just thinking if someone was like just sketching you like,

700
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:49.519
<v Speaker 2>you would be like, holy shit, well you are creep

701
00:37:49.639 --> 00:37:51.360
<v Speaker 2>and I'm getting the hell away from you.

702
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:54.320
<v Speaker 1>It's kind of funny because it's reminiscent of some creators

703
00:37:54.360 --> 00:37:56.719
<v Speaker 1>I've seen on like TikTok and Instagram and stuff. They

704
00:37:56.760 --> 00:37:59.519
<v Speaker 1>go on like trains, and then they'll like sketch a person.

705
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:01.960
<v Speaker 1>They'll give the sketch and it's like, oh my god,

706
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:03.920
<v Speaker 1>that's so cool, thank you, and stuff like that. And

707
00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:06.519
<v Speaker 1>you see it with photographers too. Photographers will go out

708
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:08.480
<v Speaker 1>take a photo of someone they have like a little

709
00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:11.519
<v Speaker 1>mini portable printer, quickly edited up on their phone, printed out,

710
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:15.280
<v Speaker 1>and give them their portrait. It's no different. It's the

711
00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:19.320
<v Speaker 1>same thing that's happening. Just the only difference is this

712
00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:21.519
<v Speaker 1>man was like, now I'm gonna stab you.

713
00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:23.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But in all those cases that you just listed,

714
00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:26.599
<v Speaker 2>I think i'd be like, no.

715
00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:30.599
<v Speaker 1>Well, in the videos, I'm pretty sure they always get

716
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:32.679
<v Speaker 1>the consent and talk to the person first. I'm pretty

717
00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:36.639
<v Speaker 1>sure it's staged. But regardless, I digress now. Overtime investigators

718
00:38:36.679 --> 00:38:39.119
<v Speaker 1>came to believe that the Doodler could have killed as

719
00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:43.679
<v Speaker 1>many as fourteen different people during his spree, and here

720
00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:48.000
<v Speaker 1>we are decades later. The case is still unsolved, but

721
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:50.880
<v Speaker 1>it was reopened at one point, with police revisiting at

722
00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:55.880
<v Speaker 1>least five unsolved murders they believe could be connected. Now,

723
00:38:55.880 --> 00:38:59.199
<v Speaker 1>a forensic artists recently updated the original composite sketch aging

724
00:38:59.239 --> 00:39:01.519
<v Speaker 1>the suspect to show what might look what he might

725
00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:03.559
<v Speaker 1>look like now if he was still alive, and the

726
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:08.920
<v Speaker 1>Doodler would be in his sixties. But that's all we have.

727
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:12.960
<v Speaker 1>That's all we know. The story and the identity of

728
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:15.800
<v Speaker 1>the Doodler. It remains a mystery and it remains unsolved

729
00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:20.079
<v Speaker 1>to this day. However, with advances in DNA technology and

730
00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:23.159
<v Speaker 1>renewed interest in the case, many people still hold out

731
00:39:23.199 --> 00:39:27.280
<v Speaker 1>hope that the killer who terrorized San Francisco's LGBTQ plus

732
00:39:27.320 --> 00:39:32.000
<v Speaker 1>community might one day be unmasked and finally held accountable

733
00:39:32.440 --> 00:39:37.280
<v Speaker 1>for his brutal crimes. And that's the story of the

734
00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:38.840
<v Speaker 1>Doodler that.

735
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:42.079
<v Speaker 2>Is interesting because it's it seems as though they know

736
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:43.840
<v Speaker 2>they knew exactly.

737
00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:47.920
<v Speaker 1>Who it was, and then the only problem is prove it.

738
00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:51.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But then so you wonder if you know, a like,

739
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:54.000
<v Speaker 2>did this person just stop killing people and what made

740
00:39:54.039 --> 00:39:57.280
<v Speaker 2>them stop or did they themselves like get killed or something, right,

741
00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:00.840
<v Speaker 2>because an attacker could potentially have like turned on or

742
00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:03.440
<v Speaker 2>a victim could have turned on him, you know.

743
00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:07.679
<v Speaker 1>That definitely, all it takes is for one victim to

744
00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:10.440
<v Speaker 1>also have a knife. You know, if there's stories of

745
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:13.920
<v Speaker 1>this Doodler going around and people I'm sure are you know,

746
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:17.679
<v Speaker 1>arming themselves to protect themselves, and all it takes is

747
00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:20.559
<v Speaker 1>for him to you know, stab someone back, yeah, grow.

748
00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:22.480
<v Speaker 2>Them in the ocean or something.

749
00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:25.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. Or maybe he's now on a list of

750
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:29.280
<v Speaker 1>an unsolved murder as well because someone else murdered him

751
00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:31.400
<v Speaker 1>and now he's actually one of the like you know

752
00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:33.239
<v Speaker 1>what I mean, Yeah, he's on the victim list.

753
00:40:33.519 --> 00:40:37.039
<v Speaker 2>Wow, huh. It just pisses me off though, Like I

754
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:40.440
<v Speaker 2>you almost want to think something like that, because to

755
00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:42.800
<v Speaker 2>think that he took that many people's lives and then

756
00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:45.559
<v Speaker 2>just like got to live his life. It's just such

757
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:46.239
<v Speaker 2>a piss off.

758
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:49.960
<v Speaker 1>I know, I know, I hate it, absolutely hate it.

759
00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:51.280
<v Speaker 1>Whah people get to walk away like that.

760
00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:52.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

761
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:56.679
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, like I say, I do think that there's

762
00:40:56.679 --> 00:41:00.440
<v Speaker 1>more that we could have discussed on this episode. So

763
00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:03.199
<v Speaker 1>I do recommend you know, doing your own research and

764
00:41:03.639 --> 00:41:06.119
<v Speaker 1>watching some documentaries and such on it. I know I'm

765
00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:08.719
<v Speaker 1>going to be, you know, in my spare time checking

766
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:10.559
<v Speaker 1>some more stuff out about it and doing a little

767
00:41:10.599 --> 00:41:12.440
<v Speaker 1>bit more learning. But if you guys want to join

768
00:41:12.440 --> 00:41:14.360
<v Speaker 1>maybe a discussion on this case, I think we're definitely

769
00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:18.199
<v Speaker 1>going to open a thread on you know, our patreon

770
00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:20.360
<v Speaker 1>to really talk about this one, because I do want

771
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:22.239
<v Speaker 1>to talk about it a bit more. You guys can

772
00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:24.559
<v Speaker 1>feel free to message us, email us, or join us

773
00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:26.719
<v Speaker 1>on Patreon, where we will discuss this one a bit more.

774
00:41:26.760 --> 00:41:28.840
<v Speaker 1>All links are in the description of this podcast.

775
00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:33.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's always more, right, Like, the information and

776
00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:35.880
<v Speaker 2>research you can do is like endless.

777
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:38.199
<v Speaker 1>Most cases, it really is. It really is.

778
00:41:38.679 --> 00:41:42.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, but that seems yeah, you cover that well there.

779
00:41:42.159 --> 00:41:46.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, it's sad. I just like sometimes cases

780
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:49.039
<v Speaker 2>get you right, and this one it just feels. It

781
00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:51.559
<v Speaker 2>just feels kind of yucky. I guess at the end

782
00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:52.519
<v Speaker 2>of it, it does.

783
00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:56.360
<v Speaker 1>And the biggest thing for me is that like they

784
00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:59.519
<v Speaker 1>were so helpless, you know what I mean, they had

785
00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:00.519
<v Speaker 1>nowhere to turn to.

786
00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:05.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because it's almost hard to even fathom that. But

787
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:07.599
<v Speaker 2>then it isn't as well, and I know that people

788
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:10.079
<v Speaker 2>to this day still face that sort of thing, right,

789
00:42:10.199 --> 00:42:14.760
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, it just makes you think, yeah and feel

790
00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:16.199
<v Speaker 2>all the fields.

791
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:18.760
<v Speaker 1>Shit, you're getting me in the fields?

792
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:21.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh man? Okay, well, good job.

793
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:23.719
<v Speaker 1>Thank you. We appreciate you being here. If you guys

794
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:25.639
<v Speaker 1>want to give our podcast a review, it helps the

795
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:28.880
<v Speaker 1>show immensely, whether it's one star or five star. Hey,

796
00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:31.199
<v Speaker 1>it's up to you. We'd appreciate a five story, if

797
00:42:31.239 --> 00:42:33.840
<v Speaker 1>I may say so myself. We're an indie podcast, and

798
00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:36.039
<v Speaker 1>all these reviews make a big difference.

799
00:42:36.119 --> 00:42:36.400
<v Speaker 2>Sure do.

800
00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:41.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we're produced, owned, recorded, researched by us in our

801
00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:42.199
<v Speaker 1>tiny home.

802
00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:47.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah there you go. Yeah, So until next episode, stay wicked.