Speaker 1: This is a studio both and production. Everyone. In this episode,
we'll be discussing multiple maps, specifically infrastructure maps, and those
will be available on Facebook and Instagram on Tuesday morning
if you'd like to use them to follow along.
Speaker 2: What's the easiest one that I find is even with
your help up, you're really close.
Speaker 3: I think you had said like a quarter mile past
the parking lot ended up being about a half mile,
but beyond that it was yeah, did.
Speaker 2: You have was there something like that.
Speaker 4: In the road or how'd you know where in the
woods it was just because of.
Speaker 2: The berm or was there like poles?
Speaker 5: Sure?
Speaker 3: No, just landmarks, ye, treaties, dragways that I actually saw.
Speaker 4: That didn't take it on my cow bit flat shovel
would have sucked actually digging a hole.
Speaker 2: So here's that dish. I bet he was just gonna
fill it in. Yeah, it was already dug. Wasn't really
only room for one person in the house.
Speaker 1: Back in March of twenty twenty five, I was on
a six hour bus ride through the Andes from Santiago
to Mendoza. It was our first Trova trip and one
of the attendees, Kathy Nation, was sharing with me some
very extensive research she had done on the Keys case,
specifically around infrastructure maps. This was just a few weeks
before I'd find out about Nathan and his story surrounding Keys,
Tammy's missing neighbor, and the hydroelectric dam. Kathy's theory was
one of the most cogent logical theory i'd heard about
how Keys may have cashed and later refound his kill
kits and potentially even victims. So in June I had
Kathy meet with me and most of the team to
share her research, not knowing at the time how important
and impactful it would eventually become. This is true crime
bullshit The Serialized Investigation into Israel Keys Season seven, Episode eleven. Infrastructure, Kathy,
do you want to share with the group what you
shared with me regarding substations?
Speaker 6: Sure?
Speaker 7: So, I've looked at this infrastructure map a few times
when I was trying to figure things out with Keys
and the telephone poll the telephone lines that some of
the stuff is under that Josh has brought up since
like day one, and I can never make any sense
of it. But then this one time I was I
started to look around Laplace and all of a sudden.
Speaker 6: To me, it looked a lot like the two's on
the grid map.
Speaker 1: As a reminder, the grid map is a map recovered
from Keys of the Laplace area of Louisiana, which is
gridlined enumerated. Agent Halla told me it was the only
map they had that had Keysa's writing on it, and
through our most recent FOYA we determined that's not true.
We now have other maps with Keysa's writing. But back
to the grid map. Agent Halla showed Joshua and Dakota
this when they met with him in person last year.
Following their meeting, Joshua hastily did a mock up as
best he could remember. So while not a perfect map,
it's a great demonstration of how Keys used grid maps
and all the numbers that he was using on them,
which we'll get into in just a minute.
Speaker 6: Like the substations. Do you see all these little dots?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 7: Now, the grid map that the SITP guys released is
obviously totally inaccurate.
Speaker 6: It's guesses of where all these number twos are at.
Speaker 7: But just if you like generalize it and you think, like,
what are all these number twos on it? I don't know,
this could be totally nothing, but anyway, that's what I saw.
I was like, wait a minute, what if all those
number twos are are electrical substations, and then he's looking
for substations near like a boat ramp or a cemetery,
because then he knows he can follow the phone lines
from that area and put the cash under a phone line.
And so what I did after I saw this was
I was like, oh my god, that's the first thing
I've come across the looks at all like the grid map.
I was looking at fishing maps, I was looking at
maps of like you know, cemeteries and stuff, and just
nothing looked similar to it. But also I noticed that
the big numbers on the grid map, like the forty
seven and the thirty five are kind of like in
the same spots where these big power plants are on
the infrastructure map.
Speaker 6: See what I'm saying, Yeah, not that that.
Speaker 7: I kind of think that's not even relevant. I'm just
it might be a total coincidence. But because I can't
make sense of out of that number thirty five, especially
because that is in the middle of a weird like
marshland wildlife refuge where there's nothing, no way to get
to it, no landmarks, I don't know what that thirty
five would be marking. I've actually looked at a couple
other possibilities beside substation stuff since then. But coincidentally, like
before this meeting last night, I threw this into chat GPT,
the SITP grid map, and I just said, what do
all these numbers mean? I didn't say anything about any
keys or any cashes or anything, and it said it's
most likely a reconnaissance map to look for somewhere to
cash things. That's fun like that, I mean, take that
with a grain of salt.
Speaker 6: I don't know.
Speaker 4: So.
Speaker 1: Substations their facilities in an electrical power system, where voltage
is transformed, switched, and controlled to move power from generation
to consumers safely and reliably. Essentially, they're the electrical interface
between an electricity generator like perhaps a hydroelectric dam, and
the wider power grid. And while they are separate systems
from telephone wires, substations generally depend on telecom networks to
be remotely monitored and controlled. Essentially, they tend to follow
and exist on the same grids, so while they have
limited affiliation with each other, you can often find them
in the same locations.
Speaker 7: So anyway, after I saw this, I decided to see
if this would apply at Blake False Reservoirs, since that's
the only other known cash location that wasn't in like
his home base. Yes, So I'm just going to show
you guys something because I always thought first it was
kind of weird the way he described to them how
to get to that cash, and then also how did
he remember or know or pick.
Speaker 6: Which reservoir to put that out?
Speaker 7: I thought that was so weird because there's like a
bazillion reservoirs up there. But as soon as I looked
at this, like every time I've tried to look up
the Blake Falls Reservoir cash, I've always had a hard
time finding it on a regular Google map. So on
here when you look at it, like, I can already
see the exact cash location. I'm in the zoom an
I'm not for you guys, but it's literally right here
where my mouse is.
Speaker 6: Right here, wow, right there.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: And if you zoom back out and you look at this,
look at all these reservoirs, all this area, all this stuff.
To me that one I was like, oh, I don't
think that's a coincidence. I kind of don't who knows,
but it's right next to a hydro dowm, a substation,
and a boat ramp and then it's literally right here
where where the phone lines make that bend.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that is the cash spot.
Speaker 7: So I mean, if I was Israel Keys and I
was like, where did I put that cash? In the
middle of the Adirondacks, this would be really a really
easy way to remember.
Speaker 1: So while Kathy was showing us this, we pulled up
the s curve at Raqat River on.
Speaker 2: The Tumper Lake thing. You had agents up there with
the cameras, but you just wanted to talk about the
bank robbery or were you.
Speaker 4: Well, what we had set up was we just had
them at the bank robbery parking lot to show you
the LIFEbeat that we could do.
Speaker 6: We didn't talk about whatever you want to talk about.
Speaker 4: We didn't have any expectations, but we thought the natural
progression because of what we've been talking, would be in
that general area.
Speaker 2: So we wanted to get things move in.
Speaker 4: There, right, you know, and if you wanted to just
like pull out of the parking lot and then take
us to the river.
Speaker 6: But yeah, that's like right right by Tupper Lake, right, Yeah,
it's right here.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and then there's substations on both sides of that.
The substations like are kind of within walking distance. I
just think he's like the closest substation that runs by
telephone lines run right by the water. I mean, who
knows with the with the Raquet River thing, there's also
the vault toilet there.
Speaker 6: He might have been looking for this.
Speaker 7: Really, I got really thrown off the other day because
of Hawk Mountain. No markers at that one other than
a wildlife sanctuary but which also seems.
Speaker 6: To be a thing.
Speaker 7: Maybe, But there's no none of the none of this stuff.
There's no boat ramp or anything. But I don't know
if you guys saw I think I posted on the
Facebook about what I found with Hawk Mountain. But anyway,
this is what Josh wanted me to show yourselves.
Speaker 6: Stick fascinating.
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Speaker 7: The infrastructure map I'm showing you guys right now didn't
exist in twenty twelve. I wrote to the guy who
put this out, and he made this map in twenty sixteen,
I think, but.
Speaker 6: Like anyone could go look at it.
Speaker 7: It just wasn't put together in a way where so
easily for me to find. But you would have to go,
like to look online for either open street maps. I
think it's called Israel could have made his own maps
of anywhere.
Speaker 8: What's that he had an Open street Maps account.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's right there.
Speaker 7: You go.
Speaker 1: Throughout all of our data mining work back in twenty
twenty three, we were able to find accounts that were
attached to Keysa's known email addresses, accounts that had since
been wiped, but we could still see the account data.
Amongst those were multiple geocaching sites and open street maps.
Speaker 7: So open street maps he could overlay different layers and
I don't really an expert.
Speaker 6: Maybe one of you guys could mess around with it,
or I could someday. But you can put in criteria.
You could put in.
Speaker 7: Cemeteries, substations, power lines, whatever, and you could like overlay
it all together and then you could see it. So
like the thirty five and the forty seven and stuff,
it might have been where it's like all these number
twos are substations, but then like the thirty five, that
could mean that there's also a cemetery and a boat
around there, three and a five, or it could mean
there's you know, forty seven could be an abound a
house for sale and a church or whatever, you know
what I mean. Yeah, So anyway, who knows. But I've
looked at a few different places, and I probably should
have prepared better because based on this theory, I could
show you exactly where I would look if I was
at Flaming Gorge.
Speaker 3: As wants to know if you saw a substation when
you were in laplace, it's across.
Speaker 7: The it's across on the other side of that busy road,
the not airport road, but the one that goes the
other way.
Speaker 6: I don't know if you saw it, but that's where.
Speaker 1: It's at I don't recall seeing I love that she's
asking as if she wasn't there with me, I would.
Speaker 3: Have you done top of her sit on like the FBI,
she would bring a shovel.
Speaker 6: I have a shovel in my car right now. No,
just kidding out. If I ever looked for a cash
I definitely would.
Speaker 1: Also, while we were here, we did this with the
coordinates in Stephenville and there was a subscission there as well.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so okay, I don't want to take up this
whole meeting, but I have to tell you guys two things.
So my sister, she's kind of like my my other
half of my research brains.
Speaker 6: She's obsessed with research and keys.
Speaker 7: And we talk about the case probably like two hours
a day minimum, and this is.
Speaker 6: Like our six phone call every day.
Speaker 7: And so uh, it's weird though, because she doesn't she
doesn't know about like the substation stuff so much. She
focuses on like things he said during an interview, or
like weird little things she found in the FOYO file
that seemed to have not been brought up, and then
she'll be like, what the hell. So, for instance, she
starts talking to me about that missing forty miles on
the couriers car, and she starts talking to me about
some comment Key's made where he said he was going
to go up there instead of down there, and she
was like, that doesn't make any sense. Why was he
going north at that time in the conversation and this
doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 6: And she's like, I.
Speaker 7: Think I figured out where you might have a cat,
like you must have put a cash somewhere, and so
that I was like, stop, don't tell.
Speaker 6: Me, don't tell me.
Speaker 7: Let me just look at the infrastructure map and see
if I can guess where you're going to tell me
you think cash is. And we picked the exact same spot.
And then another time that happened with where she goes.
I don't know. I'm looking at the map, I'm listening
to the podcast, I'm listening.
Speaker 6: To the interviews.
Speaker 7: There's this whole talk about this one highway and the
way he goes and he's bearing a cash, he's got
the bank money, and she's like, I think it's somewhere
around Nakadochis And I was like, that's weird you say that,
because somewhere in the conversation I was like, yeah, because
even mentioned Nakadochas in the in the in the when
he was pulled over, and she's like, what the hell
are you talking about?
Speaker 6: She had never heard that before. She's like, what he
mentioned Nakadochas.
Speaker 7: So then she's like, well, I think I figured out
where a cash could be there, and I did the
same exact thing, and I'll show you exactly where we
both were going to point to this same spot. So
I don't know, it's like this weird thing that happens
where it's probably nothing, but I would check those spots
if I was in Texas. I wish I would have
known this before Josh went there.
Speaker 6: Where's Nakadochis to You're right.
Speaker 7: If you look at Nakadochas, there's this lake right here
called not Lake Nakadochus. I think there's a substation right here.
There's a little boat ramp right here, and then the
phone lines right here, and this same phone line, by
the way, Basically, if you followed it, it goes right
to Jimmy Tidwell's backyard, which is right here. And this
is the church where the church where his grandma was
buried is right next to it. Right So there's another
substation and the phone lines go right through his yard.
Not that the phone lines have to do with like
everything keys did. It's just like, was this like a
was this his like map? Like I could take someone
and then I could drop off their car and then
I could walk the phone lines back to the cemetery
where my car is.
Speaker 1: Anyone's seeing me exactly what he did with Tidwell. If
he did Tidwell, which I believe he did, because I
went out there and it's where his car was parked.
Is a direction I know's the phone line?
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yep, yeah, Or to the cemetery. If you
were to go across the street from where his car
was parked, that one goes right to that cemetery. So
he either could have picked him up at his house
or at the cemetery. Either way, he could have picked
the spot where his truck was dropped off because he
took the phone lines back.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 8: Where was the Vermont one that you and your sister?
Speaker 7: Okay, so the Vermont one? So do you remember in
the files anything about Sandbar?
Speaker 1: That's where he went fishing.
Speaker 7: That's where they thought he went fishing, which is over here.
This is the Sandbar fishing area.
Speaker 1: Somewhere.
Speaker 7: We're here, But where I think he went fishing is
this weird little neighborhood fishing boat ramp thing called the
Lamoi River Fishing Ramp or something. It's right here, and
then there's this substation and the phone line right there,
and so if I was looking for a cash, I
would look right here, right there where that phone line is.
Speaker 1: And this actually makes a lot of sense, way more
sense than the Sandbar fishing spot, which I've been to.
It's on a main road, it's very crowded, it's the
only road that connects upstate New York to Burlington directly,
and it's incredibly visible, basically from three hundred and sixty degrees.
So if Keys was out there fishing and staking out spots,
like he told the FBI, it would be a very
stupid place to do anything, because anyone at any point
anywhere in the area would see you.
Speaker 3: I was driving around. Well, first of all, I was fishing,
So I was fishing and driving around. I had got
a Vermont fishing license. That was kind of my owlibi
for being there, I guess, And plus I, yeah, I
just wanted to check out the area. So I was
doing a lot of driving around, and I was looking
for churches, houses, and I was in the motel that
I had stayed at a couple other times, I think,
And and I was also in that area because I
wanted to dig up those.
Speaker 2: Guns that I had buried there.
Speaker 3: They had been there for a few years, and I
wanted to check on them, make sure they were they
were full of water.
Speaker 2: And so I don't really I think. What I think
the way it worked is.
Speaker 3: I went fishing for a day, then I went down
and found the guns, brought them back up to the
motel room, and you know, worked on.
Speaker 2: Them for a while getting everything working again.
Speaker 9: You mentioned that you were I think your plan was
to say that you would come to the area to
do some fishing. Is it is that right?
Speaker 2: Well, not so much a plan, that is actually what
I was doing.
Speaker 5: I was, I was.
Speaker 2: I was fishing.
Speaker 5: I mean.
Speaker 2: I was fishing along the I don't know.
Speaker 3: What you call it, like there's a there's a breakwater
that goes out into Lake Champlain.
Speaker 2: I think it was. I was there right after the flooding.
Speaker 3: There was a big flood and there was a lot
of damage that was done to the parks along the
water waterways. There so I was, I was driving around
out there looking at all that all the flooded campgrounds
and damaged trees.
Speaker 2: And there were quite a few people fishing.
Speaker 3: So I stopped and asked them what they were, what
they were fishing for and if they had any luck, and.
Speaker 2: Decided that I was going to stop.
Speaker 3: And my originally I wasn't even planning on staying in Vermont.
I was, you know, planning on going on to New
Hampshire and maybe staying there for a couple of days.
And but yeah, I just I just decided I wanted
to try fishing there, and I already had any fishing
gear with me.
Speaker 2: Not really.
Speaker 1: No, do you have a license?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I did, I did get I think I got a
three day license or something.
Speaker 9: Okay, Yeah, I don't want to I don't want you
to get jumped up for fishing without a license.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there after me for poaching already.
Speaker 9: So I mean that's a that's a serious offense at Vermont.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 9: But uh anyway, Uh so so you're I mean, are
there are other areas in Vermont did that you're that
you are familiar with or is it just because this
is off the ferry route kind of that that you
you decided to stay in Essex.
Speaker 2: No, I've been. I've been all through Vermont various occasions.
Speaker 3: I don't I don't always stay in like Burlington area.
Speaker 2: It's uh, it's kind of on the way to New
York though, from get route I take, so.
Speaker 1: Well, I know what I'm doing now.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I was thinking I wish I would have found
this spot because this was what that conversation where my
sister was like, I think he was going north to
bury a cash and I was just like, stop right there.
And it turns out this is I think something like
twelve miles from Essex Junction.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's it's it's it's like a fifteen minute drive.
Speaker 7: Right, so like one or two trips to this cash
would make forty miles on your car. Also, this phone
line runs exactly to his hotel. Oh yeah, it does,
and the hotel, and it also continues past his hotel
and ends.
Speaker 1: Up at the cash, ends up at.
Speaker 7: Where the cash was, which was probably right around here,
which also had a substation right there.
Speaker 8: He could have walked that under the cover of darkness
and had no problems.
Speaker 7: I mean, that could be why he picked that hotel
and why he stayed there twice.
Speaker 1: Actually more than twice. If you listen to that clip carefully,
you'll hear Key say he stayed in that hotel a
couple of times before his trip in June of twenty eleven.
Speaker 6: Because you could walk that phone line instead of walking
down that.
Speaker 7: Susie whatever road or whatever that is, you could walk
behind all the businesses. It goes right to the parking
lot where the courier's car was left, which is literally
like the phone line goes right through it. And then
I guess the cash was somewhere near the dog park,
which this is.
Speaker 6: The dog park, so I don't know.
Speaker 7: I in the recordings I heard, I looked at the
map and said, this is where I would look for
a cash. I don't know where they thought his cash was,
but this is where I think it probably was.
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slash TCBs. Jordan, would any of this line up with
like army training for you?
Speaker 8: So a lot of a lot of things we would
do with maps would be train associations. So you'd you'd
find a some sort of notable landmark and you'd base
your movements off of that landmark. And sometimes when you're uh,
when you're going to like if you're if you're going
to set up like a fighting position, you would measure
out to a specific object, like in a field or something,
and you'd know exactly how far away that thing was
in relation to you and the next group of people.
So yeah, it tracks and makes sense. If he were
using the substations in where the telephone lines is like
a landmark, he would probably have exactly how far away
from that spot he would be. And I know infantry
guys are trained more in keeping what they call a
pace count. So like we use like beads on a
piece of rope, and every count how many steps you
take to make like a meter, and then for every
fifty meters you keep counting your steps in your head,
and every fifty meters you take a beat over to
the other side so you can measure your distance. So
and that's common practice with them, So I wouldn't be
the least bit surprised if he knew from his landmark
exactly how far away everything was.
Speaker 1: Since this call, I was able to get my hands
on the US Army Special Forces cashing technique side. It's
about forty pages, so I obviously you won't read it
all to you. But in addition to what Jordan just explained,
there were few points that I thought were worth mentioning.
In discussion around burial sites, it says to consider activities
of the local population. Normal activity, such as construction of
a new building, may uncover the cash site or impede
access to it. As this relates to what we're talking about,
substations likely will not be moved at any point. In
discussing concealment, it says that concealment requires the use of permanent,
man made or natural features to hide or disguise the cash.
When discussing criteria for site selection, it says to make
sure there are at least two secure routes to and
from the site, and in map surveying, it says usually
a thorough systematic survey of the general area designated for
the cash is required. The survey is best done with
a large scale map of the u area as is available.
It will provide the indispensable reference points for locating a
cache site, such as confluences of streams, the Dungeness Spit, campground,
dams and waterfalls. As we've previously mentioned, road junctures and
distance markers, villages, bridges, churches and cemeteries. There's a cemetery
on the same road half a mile down from Blake
Falls Reservoir. When discussing personal reconnaissance, it says, ordinarily an
observer who is not a known resident of the area
can pose as a tourist or a newcomer with some
reason for visiting the area Allah Laplace. However, if the
observer is a known resident of the area, he cannot
suddenly take up hunting, fishing, or wildlife photography without arousing
interest and perhaps suspicion, but he must build up a
reputation for being a devote of his sport or hobby.
When discussing reference points, any durable landmark that is identifiable
by its title or simple description can be an immediate
reference point, for example, the only Roman Catholic church in
a certain village or the only bridge on a named
road between two villages. The instructions must also include a
final reference point, which must meet four requirements. One it
must be identifiable, including at least one feature that can
be used as a precise reference point. Two it must
be an object that will remain fixed as long as
the cache may be used. Three it must be near
enough to the cash to pinpoint the exact location of
the cache by precise linear measurements from the final resting
point to the cache. And four it should be related
to the immediate reference point by a simple route description
which proceeds from the immediate reference point to the final
resting place. The following objects, when available, are sometimes ideal
reference points. Small unfrequented bridges and dams, boundary markers, mile
markers and culverts along unfrequented roads, a geodetic survey marker,
battle monuments, and wayside shrines. When such reference points are
not available at an otherwise suitable cash site, natural or
man made objects may serve as final resting points. Distinct rocks,
posts for power or telephone lines, intersections in stone fences
or hedgerows, and gravestones in isolated cemeteries. In discussing marking techniques,
it reads the marker must be an object that is
easily recognizable, but that it is meaningless to an unwitting observer.
For example, a small rock or a branch with its
butt placed at the point selected for the emplacement of
the cache. Needless to say, this guide, which Israel would
have been trained on, points to all the known locations
and presumed locations of Keyes's cases.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I was always thinking.
Speaker 7: The way he talks, it seems like he did something
like that, like when he talks about worst amount is
out and stuff.
Speaker 1: January is here and we often spend the entire month
fretting about turning ourselves inside out to become the best
version of ourselves. But sometimes the best version of yourself
is the one who allows themselves to pursue attainable goals
and more importantly, let go of the stresses and worries
that no longer serve you. My greatest takeaway from my
therapist Jane is not to fret about the things I
can't control, and that means letting go of how others
perceive me and not trying to take on everyone around
these problems. It's been an uphill but emancipating battle. And
maybe this January, instead of beating yourself up for not
being perfect, you just take care of yourself by working
with a licensed therapist were you too can learn to
let go and grow into a better version of yourself.
Better Help makes it easy to get matched online with
a qualified therapist. Sign up and get ten percent off
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Speaker 7: Here's the flaming Gorge spot that I think. I don't
know if you checked here, but.
Speaker 1: I went there. It's yeah, I would love it. I
went there. It's massive, and I just got to the
point where I was like, I.
Speaker 7: I know it might be a lot less massive now
if you check it again, because okay, there's flaming gorge, right,
there's only really one substation.
Speaker 6: Well there's one up here too.
Speaker 7: There's a couple areas, but this, if you just zoom
weigh in, this is actually super weird because if you
look at it on a Google map, you'll see what's
around here.
Speaker 6: What's the guy's name who they just found his truck
last summer.
Speaker 1: Kathy's referring to Steven Willard Anderson, who we covered last season.
He disappeared on June third, two thousand and four, while
driving from Salt Lake City to his family cabin on
the Flaming Gorge Reservoir. Keys had just returned from Utah
that February and was seen again in Utah the week
that Stephen went missing. Of course, that sighting is unverifiable.
Just this past summer, Stephen's truck was found submerged in
Flaming Gorge Reservoir. His remains were still in the truck,
and while the police suspect no foul play, they have
not been able to determine his cause of death.
Speaker 7: But he was on his way to his cabin, which
is right next to this, which I found out after
all of this.
Speaker 6: I was like, where do I know that name from?
Speaker 7: But anyway, there is a little boat ramp right here,
right here, there's a parking lot, like a dirt parking
lot right there for that boat ramp, and the power
line runs right here. So if it was me, that's
probably where I would check is under this power line.
In fact, probably right here would be my first spot.
There's also another good spot. I think it's right here
this power line. So that's probably the area I would
focus on if I went back to Lavy Gorge.
Speaker 1: Can you go to southern California?
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, you yeah. So here's parents and here's Bernascobi Beach.
Here's the power line that runs behind it. Of the
rocks where it sounded like maybe he went up that
hill but I don't know.
Speaker 1: Well, and that like it. There's a bunch of like rocks,
like the like the rocks he hit it under in
Blake Falls Reservoir, which are also the at Hawk Mountain too,
And it's all right along that ridge right there. During
the filming of Citizen Detective, retired FBI agent Bobby Chicone
and I met at Lake Paris and as we surveyed
Bernisconi Beach where the very credible sighting of keys digging
up a cash occurred, Chaconne pointed to that specific crop
of rocks and said that that right there is where
keys would hide a kill kit.
Speaker 7: But yeah, I mean it kind of it narrows down
the search field. If if it's definitely going to be
tied to phone lines and stuff, I mean, you had
to have some kind of method.
Speaker 1: I think it's the most sound thing we've seen so far.
Speaker 6: I hope it turns.
Speaker 7: I hope it pounds out, and I just want them
to find some evidence.
Speaker 6: Man, it would be so amazing.
Speaker 1: There has to be some simplicity to all this because
he remembered it all so effortlessly. I think this makes
this makes it easier because I think even if you're
like looking for a boat ramp or a cemetery, that's
going to be harder to find. But if you're looking for.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, all these years, I've been like, because I
live like right by deep Obey, so I've always been like,
if I I thought he was bearing cash is way
back then I would be how would I even know
where to look? Though, there's a boat ramp every every
like half a mile, there's a river, there's a campground,
there's a trailhead. So I'm like, how did he do this?
It's crazy? But there has to be something. So I
read the Army Training Manual for casing and stuff, and
there's always something. There's got to be, like you know,
railroads or something. But with him, I really feel like
you've been onto it for since the start with the
phone lines, and I think maybe just like zeroing in
more on the substations and then he knows there's phone
lines going whichever directions from that.
Speaker 8: Well, keVs just made a good point. They're they're very
permanent structure, so they're not going to be going anywhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, they could build a shopping mall out there at
Flaming Gorge and probably they're not going to move those
phone lines.
Speaker 6: It would be a huge deal if they did.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is very interesting.
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, really interesting.
Speaker 6: Saying thank you.
Speaker 1: That's also in the same stretch that is highlighted on
the map.
Speaker 8: So mm hmm, Hey he didn't do that, watch yourself.
Speaker 2: Too many us not to put.
Speaker 5: Break up the thoughts.
Speaker 1: So this episode was written, researched, edited and produced by
Josh Hallmark, with additional research by Kathy Nation, Jordan Taylor,
and Michelle Tooker. This episode featured Kathy Nation, Jordan Taylor,
Michelle Tooker, and Shana Lensky and the episode was made
possible by the following Patreon producers Amy Basil, Kendall, c
Ash Fish, Heather Horton, Whedon, Sherry d Kristin Hoffman, Dale Axton,
Stephanie Taylor, Drew Vipond, Amelia Hancock, Christina Sisson, Nicole and
Dennis Henry, Julian, Natalelna Holiday, Rural, Jur Tuesday Woodworth, Kathleen
s Nnett, l Casey Jensen, Richardson, sc Benjamin Choppa, Fong,
Dan del Rossi, Trista, Nicole Pink, jenj Cory D, Robin Carroll, Michelle, Jordan, M. K. Luser,
Sarah C. John Comery, Kathy Nation, Virginia Williams, Carry, Jordan
T Bethany, David Begley, Ally, Lauren Ferry, Chris S. Tory Meyer,
Sabrina Abbott, Megan Dagel, Ashley Cooplan, Michael Randall, Dwayne C.
Gentricola and Trixie. Thank you to True Crime Bullshit's newest
Patreon supporters, Mark G. Christine M Betsy Kristin, Noir, Slickfreak, Sarah,
Emily B. Reese, Jessica L Liz B. Needy, Heather E
and Miriam R. To support the investigation and get AD
free episodes, go to Patreon dot com, slash Studio both
and This episode included music by Sonic Yard, with featured
music by the Foundry Field Recordings starting the line taking
the trucks holding the time and smalls.
Speaker 6: He trowsing, does fust a crystal.
Speaker 5: No one exclaim how did you es?
Speaker 7: No f f.
Speaker 6: Father the press.
Speaker 5: Then he goes the track. Now it is time that
gown up. That's perfect storming. Still need to extends this
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