1 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:17,879 Speaker 1: This is a studio both and production. Everyone. In this episode, 2 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:23,399 we'll be discussing multiple maps, specifically infrastructure maps, and those 3 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,559 will be available on Facebook and Instagram on Tuesday morning 4 00:00:26,679 --> 00:00:28,679 if you'd like to use them to follow along. 5 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 2: What's the easiest one that I find is even with 6 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:41,520 your help up, you're really close. 7 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 3: I think you had said like a quarter mile past 8 00:00:44,359 --> 00:00:47,079 the parking lot ended up being about a half mile, 9 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,000 but beyond that it was yeah, did. 10 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 2: You have was there something like that. 11 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 4: In the road or how'd you know where in the 12 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:56,960 woods it was just because of. 13 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: The berm or was there like poles? 14 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 5: Sure? 15 00:01:00,479 --> 00:01:05,879 Speaker 3: No, just landmarks, ye, treaties, dragways that I actually saw. 16 00:01:05,719 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 4: That didn't take it on my cow bit flat shovel 17 00:01:08,159 --> 00:01:09,760 would have sucked actually digging a hole. 18 00:01:09,799 --> 00:01:11,799 Speaker 2: So here's that dish. I bet he was just gonna 19 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:19,159 fill it in. Yeah, it was already dug. Wasn't really 20 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,040 only room for one person in the house. 21 00:01:27,519 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: Back in March of twenty twenty five, I was on 22 00:01:30,359 --> 00:01:33,719 a six hour bus ride through the Andes from Santiago 23 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,599 to Mendoza. It was our first Trova trip and one 24 00:01:36,599 --> 00:01:40,040 of the attendees, Kathy Nation, was sharing with me some 25 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,000 very extensive research she had done on the Keys case, 26 00:01:43,799 --> 00:01:49,200 specifically around infrastructure maps. This was just a few weeks 27 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,560 before I'd find out about Nathan and his story surrounding Keys, 28 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,879 Tammy's missing neighbor, and the hydroelectric dam. Kathy's theory was 29 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,000 one of the most cogent logical theory i'd heard about 30 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,719 how Keys may have cashed and later refound his kill 31 00:02:03,799 --> 00:02:08,599 kits and potentially even victims. So in June I had 32 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:10,800 Kathy meet with me and most of the team to 33 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,280 share her research, not knowing at the time how important 34 00:02:14,319 --> 00:02:21,800 and impactful it would eventually become. This is true crime 35 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:34,639 bullshit The Serialized Investigation into Israel Keys Season seven, Episode eleven. Infrastructure, Kathy, 36 00:02:34,759 --> 00:02:36,639 do you want to share with the group what you 37 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,319 shared with me regarding substations? 38 00:02:40,599 --> 00:02:40,879 Speaker 6: Sure? 39 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,599 Speaker 7: So, I've looked at this infrastructure map a few times 40 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:46,719 when I was trying to figure things out with Keys 41 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,800 and the telephone poll the telephone lines that some of 42 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,400 the stuff is under that Josh has brought up since 43 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,400 like day one, and I can never make any sense 44 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:00,319 of it. But then this one time I was I 45 00:03:00,439 --> 00:03:04,960 started to look around Laplace and all of a sudden. 46 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:11,199 Speaker 6: To me, it looked a lot like the two's on 47 00:03:11,319 --> 00:03:12,000 the grid map. 48 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: As a reminder, the grid map is a map recovered 49 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:21,120 from Keys of the Laplace area of Louisiana, which is 50 00:03:21,199 --> 00:03:24,960 gridlined enumerated. Agent Halla told me it was the only 51 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,400 map they had that had Keysa's writing on it, and 52 00:03:27,439 --> 00:03:30,199 through our most recent FOYA we determined that's not true. 53 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,840 We now have other maps with Keysa's writing. But back 54 00:03:33,879 --> 00:03:36,879 to the grid map. Agent Halla showed Joshua and Dakota 55 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,000 this when they met with him in person last year. 56 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,319 Following their meeting, Joshua hastily did a mock up as 57 00:03:42,319 --> 00:03:45,280 best he could remember. So while not a perfect map, 58 00:03:45,919 --> 00:03:49,120 it's a great demonstration of how Keys used grid maps 59 00:03:49,439 --> 00:03:51,479 and all the numbers that he was using on them, 60 00:03:52,199 --> 00:03:55,639 which we'll get into in just a minute. 61 00:03:54,879 --> 00:03:57,439 Speaker 6: Like the substations. Do you see all these little dots? 62 00:03:57,639 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: Yeah? 63 00:03:58,719 --> 00:04:02,599 Speaker 7: Now, the grid map that the SITP guys released is 64 00:04:02,639 --> 00:04:04,680 obviously totally inaccurate. 65 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 6: It's guesses of where all these number twos are at. 66 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:11,199 Speaker 7: But just if you like generalize it and you think, like, 67 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,319 what are all these number twos on it? I don't know, 68 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,399 this could be totally nothing, but anyway, that's what I saw. 69 00:04:17,399 --> 00:04:19,040 I was like, wait a minute, what if all those 70 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:24,839 number twos are are electrical substations, and then he's looking 71 00:04:24,879 --> 00:04:29,199 for substations near like a boat ramp or a cemetery, 72 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,480 because then he knows he can follow the phone lines 73 00:04:32,519 --> 00:04:36,480 from that area and put the cash under a phone line. 74 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,160 And so what I did after I saw this was 75 00:04:40,199 --> 00:04:42,560 I was like, oh my god, that's the first thing 76 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,639 I've come across the looks at all like the grid map. 77 00:04:46,079 --> 00:04:48,399 I was looking at fishing maps, I was looking at 78 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,839 maps of like you know, cemeteries and stuff, and just 79 00:04:52,879 --> 00:04:56,759 nothing looked similar to it. But also I noticed that 80 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,480 the big numbers on the grid map, like the forty 81 00:05:00,519 --> 00:05:03,600 seven and the thirty five are kind of like in 82 00:05:03,639 --> 00:05:06,759 the same spots where these big power plants are on 83 00:05:06,959 --> 00:05:08,199 the infrastructure map. 84 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,079 Speaker 6: See what I'm saying, Yeah, not that that. 85 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 7: I kind of think that's not even relevant. I'm just 86 00:05:13,639 --> 00:05:16,720 it might be a total coincidence. But because I can't 87 00:05:16,759 --> 00:05:19,360 make sense of out of that number thirty five, especially 88 00:05:19,399 --> 00:05:22,279 because that is in the middle of a weird like 89 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,920 marshland wildlife refuge where there's nothing, no way to get 90 00:05:25,959 --> 00:05:29,480 to it, no landmarks, I don't know what that thirty 91 00:05:29,519 --> 00:05:32,800 five would be marking. I've actually looked at a couple 92 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:39,360 other possibilities beside substation stuff since then. But coincidentally, like 93 00:05:39,399 --> 00:05:42,879 before this meeting last night, I threw this into chat GPT, 94 00:05:43,519 --> 00:05:47,759 the SITP grid map, and I just said, what do 95 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,040 all these numbers mean? I didn't say anything about any 96 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,360 keys or any cashes or anything, and it said it's 97 00:05:53,399 --> 00:05:56,920 most likely a reconnaissance map to look for somewhere to 98 00:05:56,959 --> 00:06:02,000 cash things. That's fun like that, I mean, take that 99 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:02,839 with a grain of salt. 100 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 6: I don't know. 101 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 4: So. 102 00:06:04,439 --> 00:06:09,439 Speaker 1: Substations their facilities in an electrical power system, where voltage 103 00:06:09,519 --> 00:06:14,079 is transformed, switched, and controlled to move power from generation 104 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:19,800 to consumers safely and reliably. Essentially, they're the electrical interface 105 00:06:19,879 --> 00:06:25,160 between an electricity generator like perhaps a hydroelectric dam, and 106 00:06:25,199 --> 00:06:29,199 the wider power grid. And while they are separate systems 107 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:34,079 from telephone wires, substations generally depend on telecom networks to 108 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,720 be remotely monitored and controlled. Essentially, they tend to follow 109 00:06:38,759 --> 00:06:41,759 and exist on the same grids, so while they have 110 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,920 limited affiliation with each other, you can often find them 111 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:46,160 in the same locations. 112 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 7: So anyway, after I saw this, I decided to see 113 00:06:52,319 --> 00:06:55,360 if this would apply at Blake False Reservoirs, since that's 114 00:06:55,399 --> 00:06:58,759 the only other known cash location that wasn't in like 115 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,360 his home base. Yes, So I'm just going to show 116 00:07:02,399 --> 00:07:06,160 you guys something because I always thought first it was 117 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:07,959 kind of weird the way he described to them how 118 00:07:07,959 --> 00:07:12,720 to get to that cash, and then also how did 119 00:07:12,759 --> 00:07:15,079 he remember or know or pick. 120 00:07:14,839 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 6: Which reservoir to put that out? 121 00:07:16,279 --> 00:07:18,079 Speaker 7: I thought that was so weird because there's like a 122 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,959 bazillion reservoirs up there. But as soon as I looked 123 00:07:21,959 --> 00:07:24,680 at this, like every time I've tried to look up 124 00:07:24,839 --> 00:07:27,560 the Blake Falls Reservoir cash, I've always had a hard 125 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,240 time finding it on a regular Google map. So on 126 00:07:30,439 --> 00:07:34,000 here when you look at it, like, I can already 127 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,879 see the exact cash location. I'm in the zoom an 128 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,240 I'm not for you guys, but it's literally right here 129 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:41,639 where my mouse is. 130 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 6: Right here, wow, right there. 131 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:48,959 Speaker 1: Yeah. 132 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,279 Speaker 7: And if you zoom back out and you look at this, 133 00:07:51,519 --> 00:07:55,360 look at all these reservoirs, all this area, all this stuff. 134 00:07:55,879 --> 00:07:58,720 To me that one I was like, oh, I don't 135 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,360 think that's a coincidence. I kind of don't who knows, 136 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:07,160 but it's right next to a hydro dowm, a substation, 137 00:08:07,759 --> 00:08:10,240 and a boat ramp and then it's literally right here 138 00:08:10,319 --> 00:08:12,800 where where the phone lines make that bend. 139 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 6: Yeah, that is the cash spot. 140 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,439 Speaker 7: So I mean, if I was Israel Keys and I 141 00:08:20,519 --> 00:08:22,279 was like, where did I put that cash? In the 142 00:08:22,319 --> 00:08:25,680 middle of the Adirondacks, this would be really a really 143 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:26,680 easy way to remember. 144 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: So while Kathy was showing us this, we pulled up 145 00:08:31,319 --> 00:08:34,799 the s curve at Raqat River on. 146 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 2: The Tumper Lake thing. You had agents up there with 147 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,080 the cameras, but you just wanted to talk about the 148 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:41,679 bank robbery or were you. 149 00:08:41,399 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 4: Well, what we had set up was we just had 150 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:48,039 them at the bank robbery parking lot to show you 151 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:49,799 the LIFEbeat that we could do. 152 00:08:50,919 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 6: We didn't talk about whatever you want to talk about. 153 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 4: We didn't have any expectations, but we thought the natural 154 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,159 progression because of what we've been talking, would be in 155 00:08:58,200 --> 00:08:59,039 that general area. 156 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,639 Speaker 2: So we wanted to get things move in. 157 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 4: There, right, you know, and if you wanted to just 158 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,840 like pull out of the parking lot and then take 159 00:09:06,919 --> 00:09:08,720 us to the river. 160 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,799 Speaker 6: But yeah, that's like right right by Tupper Lake, right, Yeah, 161 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:15,519 it's right here. 162 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,519 Speaker 7: Yeah, and then there's substations on both sides of that. 163 00:09:19,759 --> 00:09:22,759 The substations like are kind of within walking distance. I 164 00:09:22,879 --> 00:09:25,559 just think he's like the closest substation that runs by 165 00:09:25,919 --> 00:09:29,039 telephone lines run right by the water. I mean, who 166 00:09:29,039 --> 00:09:32,639 knows with the with the Raquet River thing, there's also 167 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:33,799 the vault toilet there. 168 00:09:33,879 --> 00:09:36,639 Speaker 6: He might have been looking for this. 169 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,519 Speaker 7: Really, I got really thrown off the other day because 170 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:45,120 of Hawk Mountain. No markers at that one other than 171 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,360 a wildlife sanctuary but which also seems. 172 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:49,519 Speaker 6: To be a thing. 173 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 7: Maybe, But there's no none of the none of this stuff. 174 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:55,399 There's no boat ramp or anything. But I don't know 175 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,399 if you guys saw I think I posted on the 176 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,159 Facebook about what I found with Hawk Mountain. But anyway, 177 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:03,000 this is what Josh wanted me to show yourselves. 178 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,039 Speaker 6: Stick fascinating. 179 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: It's the beginning of the year, new you, new habits, 180 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,279 and I'm sure, like me, eating better is one of them. 181 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,200 But also like me, you have zero time and even 182 00:10:16,279 --> 00:10:19,759 less energy to make that happen. Factor doesn't ask you 183 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,519 to meal prep or follow recipes. It just removes the 184 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:29,559 entire problem. Two minutes, real food, real delicious done. I 185 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,240 love cooking and I love eating healthy, but I also 186 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,240 love relaxing after a long day of work. And I'm 187 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,080 learning more and more that that doesn't mean I'm failing 188 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,840 at cooking and eating healthy. It just means that I'm 189 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,240 failing at, you know, having three much needed extra hours 190 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,759 in my day. Well, lucky for you and me, Factor 191 00:10:46,879 --> 00:10:51,919 is already made by chefs, designed by dietitians, and delivered 192 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:54,919 right to your door. You heat it for two minutes 193 00:10:55,159 --> 00:10:58,480 and eat. So what exactly is Factor delivering? I'm so 194 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:03,200 glad you asked. Lean proteins, colorful veggies, whole food ingredients, 195 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,120 and healthy fats, the stuff you'd be making at home 196 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,879 if you had extra time and energy. Plus there's no 197 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:13,440 refined sugars, artificial sweeteners, or refined seed oils. Factor offers 198 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,840 one hundred rotating meals each week, including high protein, calorie 199 00:11:17,879 --> 00:11:22,360 smart Mediterranean GLP one support, and ready to eat salads, 200 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,039 so you can peruse their meal plans and pick whatever 201 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,399 supports your goals, whether it's a late night at the 202 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,320 studio or a tired night on the couch. Factor has 203 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,759 been a game changer and a life saver. Head to 204 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:39,320 Factor Meals dot com slash tc BS fifty off and 205 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,919 use code tc BS fifty off to get fifty percent 206 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:48,840 off your first Factor box plus free breakfast for one year. 207 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,480 That offer is only valid for new Factor customers with 208 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:55,919 code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase. Make healthier eating 209 00:11:56,159 --> 00:11:57,639 easy with Factor. 210 00:11:58,879 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 7: The infrastructure map I'm showing you guys right now didn't 211 00:12:02,399 --> 00:12:05,480 exist in twenty twelve. I wrote to the guy who 212 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,960 put this out, and he made this map in twenty sixteen, 213 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:09,960 I think, but. 214 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,519 Speaker 6: Like anyone could go look at it. 215 00:12:12,519 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 7: It just wasn't put together in a way where so 216 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,639 easily for me to find. But you would have to go, 217 00:12:17,799 --> 00:12:23,159 like to look online for either open street maps. I 218 00:12:23,159 --> 00:12:25,440 think it's called Israel could have made his own maps 219 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:26,080 of anywhere. 220 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 8: What's that he had an Open street Maps account. 221 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's right there. 222 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:34,919 Speaker 7: You go. 223 00:12:35,519 --> 00:12:38,039 Speaker 1: Throughout all of our data mining work back in twenty 224 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,360 twenty three, we were able to find accounts that were 225 00:12:41,399 --> 00:12:45,360 attached to Keysa's known email addresses, accounts that had since 226 00:12:45,399 --> 00:12:48,559 been wiped, but we could still see the account data. 227 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:54,360 Amongst those were multiple geocaching sites and open street maps. 228 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 7: So open street maps he could overlay different layers and 229 00:12:59,279 --> 00:13:00,639 I don't really an expert. 230 00:13:00,639 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 6: Maybe one of you guys could mess around with it, 231 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,320 or I could someday. But you can put in criteria. 232 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:07,360 You could put in. 233 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:13,039 Speaker 7: Cemeteries, substations, power lines, whatever, and you could like overlay 234 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,759 it all together and then you could see it. So 235 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,799 like the thirty five and the forty seven and stuff, 236 00:13:18,919 --> 00:13:20,799 it might have been where it's like all these number 237 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,919 twos are substations, but then like the thirty five, that 238 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,480 could mean that there's also a cemetery and a boat 239 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,960 around there, three and a five, or it could mean 240 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,000 there's you know, forty seven could be an abound a 241 00:13:33,039 --> 00:13:36,639 house for sale and a church or whatever, you know 242 00:13:36,639 --> 00:13:40,320 what I mean. Yeah, So anyway, who knows. But I've 243 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:45,159 looked at a few different places, and I probably should 244 00:13:45,159 --> 00:13:49,840 have prepared better because based on this theory, I could 245 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,919 show you exactly where I would look if I was 246 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:55,840 at Flaming Gorge. 247 00:13:56,039 --> 00:13:58,279 Speaker 3: As wants to know if you saw a substation when 248 00:13:58,279 --> 00:14:02,279 you were in laplace, it's across. 249 00:14:01,879 --> 00:14:04,799 Speaker 7: The it's across on the other side of that busy road, 250 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,039 the not airport road, but the one that goes the 251 00:14:07,039 --> 00:14:07,440 other way. 252 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 6: I don't know if you saw it, but that's where. 253 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,399 Speaker 1: It's at I don't recall seeing I love that she's 254 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:16,039 asking as if she wasn't there with me, I would. 255 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 3: Have you done top of her sit on like the FBI, 256 00:14:21,399 --> 00:14:22,360 she would bring a shovel. 257 00:14:24,159 --> 00:14:25,919 Speaker 6: I have a shovel in my car right now. No, 258 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,600 just kidding out. If I ever looked for a cash 259 00:14:28,679 --> 00:14:29,519 I definitely would. 260 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,679 Speaker 1: Also, while we were here, we did this with the 261 00:14:33,759 --> 00:14:39,799 coordinates in Stephenville and there was a subscission there as well. 262 00:14:41,919 --> 00:14:44,639 Speaker 7: Yeah, so okay, I don't want to take up this 263 00:14:44,679 --> 00:14:47,679 whole meeting, but I have to tell you guys two things. 264 00:14:48,279 --> 00:14:51,559 So my sister, she's kind of like my my other 265 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:53,000 half of my research brains. 266 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,559 Speaker 6: She's obsessed with research and keys. 267 00:14:54,559 --> 00:14:56,759 Speaker 7: And we talk about the case probably like two hours 268 00:14:56,799 --> 00:14:59,399 a day minimum, and this is. 269 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 6: Like our six phone call every day. 270 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 7: And so uh, it's weird though, because she doesn't she 271 00:15:06,759 --> 00:15:10,000 doesn't know about like the substation stuff so much. She 272 00:15:10,159 --> 00:15:14,200 focuses on like things he said during an interview, or 273 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,039 like weird little things she found in the FOYO file 274 00:15:17,039 --> 00:15:18,840 that seemed to have not been brought up, and then 275 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,000 she'll be like, what the hell. So, for instance, she 276 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,919 starts talking to me about that missing forty miles on 277 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,000 the couriers car, and she starts talking to me about 278 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,240 some comment Key's made where he said he was going 279 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,120 to go up there instead of down there, and she 280 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:33,879 was like, that doesn't make any sense. Why was he 281 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,240 going north at that time in the conversation and this 282 00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:38,240 doesn't make any sense. 283 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:38,879 Speaker 6: And she's like, I. 284 00:15:38,879 --> 00:15:41,559 Speaker 7: Think I figured out where you might have a cat, 285 00:15:41,759 --> 00:15:44,320 like you must have put a cash somewhere, and so 286 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:45,799 that I was like, stop, don't tell. 287 00:15:45,679 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 6: Me, don't tell me. 288 00:15:46,679 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 7: Let me just look at the infrastructure map and see 289 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:50,440 if I can guess where you're going to tell me 290 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:55,919 you think cash is. And we picked the exact same spot. 291 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:01,480 And then another time that happened with where she goes. 292 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,120 I don't know. I'm looking at the map, I'm listening 293 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,000 to the podcast, I'm listening. 294 00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 6: To the interviews. 295 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 7: There's this whole talk about this one highway and the 296 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,600 way he goes and he's bearing a cash, he's got 297 00:16:13,639 --> 00:16:16,559 the bank money, and she's like, I think it's somewhere 298 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,960 around Nakadochis And I was like, that's weird you say that, 299 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,200 because somewhere in the conversation I was like, yeah, because 300 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,440 even mentioned Nakadochas in the in the in the when 301 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:29,960 he was pulled over, and she's like, what the hell 302 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:30,720 are you talking about? 303 00:16:30,799 --> 00:16:33,559 Speaker 6: She had never heard that before. She's like, what he 304 00:16:33,679 --> 00:16:34,720 mentioned Nakadochas. 305 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:36,919 Speaker 7: So then she's like, well, I think I figured out 306 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,519 where a cash could be there, and I did the 307 00:16:39,559 --> 00:16:44,440 same exact thing, and I'll show you exactly where we 308 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,360 both were going to point to this same spot. So 309 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,519 I don't know, it's like this weird thing that happens 310 00:16:49,559 --> 00:16:53,519 where it's probably nothing, but I would check those spots 311 00:16:53,519 --> 00:16:55,159 if I was in Texas. I wish I would have 312 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,000 known this before Josh went there. 313 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,519 Speaker 6: Where's Nakadochis to You're right. 314 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,799 Speaker 7: If you look at Nakadochas, there's this lake right here 315 00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:09,559 called not Lake Nakadochus. I think there's a substation right here. 316 00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:14,680 There's a little boat ramp right here, and then the 317 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:20,640 phone lines right here, and this same phone line, by 318 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,839 the way, Basically, if you followed it, it goes right 319 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:32,920 to Jimmy Tidwell's backyard, which is right here. And this 320 00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:36,920 is the church where the church where his grandma was 321 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,480 buried is right next to it. Right So there's another 322 00:17:39,519 --> 00:17:42,319 substation and the phone lines go right through his yard. 323 00:17:42,759 --> 00:17:44,359 Not that the phone lines have to do with like 324 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,519 everything keys did. It's just like, was this like a 325 00:17:49,039 --> 00:17:51,720 was this his like map? Like I could take someone 326 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,440 and then I could drop off their car and then 327 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,640 I could walk the phone lines back to the cemetery 328 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:57,559 where my car is. 329 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: Anyone's seeing me exactly what he did with Tidwell. If 330 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,160 he did Tidwell, which I believe he did, because I 331 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,519 went out there and it's where his car was parked. 332 00:18:07,279 --> 00:18:09,880 Is a direction I know's the phone line? 333 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yep, yeah, Or to the cemetery. If you 334 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:14,319 were to go across the street from where his car 335 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,559 was parked, that one goes right to that cemetery. So 336 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,279 he either could have picked him up at his house 337 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,880 or at the cemetery. Either way, he could have picked 338 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,519 the spot where his truck was dropped off because he 339 00:18:25,599 --> 00:18:26,759 took the phone lines back. 340 00:18:27,079 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 341 00:18:28,279 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 8: Where was the Vermont one that you and your sister? 342 00:18:31,039 --> 00:18:34,839 Speaker 7: Okay, so the Vermont one? So do you remember in 343 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:36,279 the files anything about Sandbar? 344 00:18:36,759 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 1: That's where he went fishing. 345 00:18:39,039 --> 00:18:41,559 Speaker 7: That's where they thought he went fishing, which is over here. 346 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:43,920 This is the Sandbar fishing area. 347 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:44,319 Speaker 1: Somewhere. 348 00:18:44,319 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 7: We're here, But where I think he went fishing is 349 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,680 this weird little neighborhood fishing boat ramp thing called the 350 00:18:51,759 --> 00:18:57,680 Lamoi River Fishing Ramp or something. It's right here, and 351 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:02,119 then there's this substation and the phone line right there, 352 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,720 and so if I was looking for a cash, I 353 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,480 would look right here, right there where that phone line is. 354 00:19:08,039 --> 00:19:11,519 Speaker 1: And this actually makes a lot of sense, way more 355 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,079 sense than the Sandbar fishing spot, which I've been to. 356 00:19:15,839 --> 00:19:19,720 It's on a main road, it's very crowded, it's the 357 00:19:19,759 --> 00:19:23,160 only road that connects upstate New York to Burlington directly, 358 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,960 and it's incredibly visible, basically from three hundred and sixty degrees. 359 00:19:28,799 --> 00:19:31,759 So if Keys was out there fishing and staking out spots, 360 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,519 like he told the FBI, it would be a very 361 00:19:35,559 --> 00:19:40,240 stupid place to do anything, because anyone at any point 362 00:19:40,759 --> 00:19:42,920 anywhere in the area would see you. 363 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 3: I was driving around. Well, first of all, I was fishing, 364 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,960 So I was fishing and driving around. I had got 365 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:55,359 a Vermont fishing license. That was kind of my owlibi 366 00:19:55,519 --> 00:19:58,440 for being there, I guess, And plus I, yeah, I 367 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:02,279 just wanted to check out the area. So I was 368 00:20:02,319 --> 00:20:04,359 doing a lot of driving around, and I was looking 369 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:10,960 for churches, houses, and I was in the motel that 370 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,480 I had stayed at a couple other times, I think, 371 00:20:13,759 --> 00:20:18,799 And and I was also in that area because I 372 00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:20,119 wanted to dig up those. 373 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:21,039 Speaker 2: Guns that I had buried there. 374 00:20:21,079 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 3: They had been there for a few years, and I 375 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,759 wanted to check on them, make sure they were they 376 00:20:26,839 --> 00:20:27,640 were full of water. 377 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 2: And so I don't really I think. What I think 378 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:32,759 the way it worked is. 379 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 3: I went fishing for a day, then I went down 380 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,759 and found the guns, brought them back up to the 381 00:20:40,799 --> 00:20:43,200 motel room, and you know, worked on. 382 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,519 Speaker 2: Them for a while getting everything working again. 383 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 9: You mentioned that you were I think your plan was 384 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,720 to say that you would come to the area to 385 00:20:53,759 --> 00:20:56,599 do some fishing. Is it is that right? 386 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 2: Well, not so much a plan, that is actually what 387 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:01,839 I was doing. 388 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:02,839 Speaker 5: I was, I was. 389 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 2: I was fishing. 390 00:21:03,839 --> 00:21:04,279 Speaker 5: I mean. 391 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 2: I was fishing along the I don't know. 392 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,279 Speaker 3: What you call it, like there's a there's a breakwater 393 00:21:13,319 --> 00:21:15,480 that goes out into Lake Champlain. 394 00:21:15,599 --> 00:21:19,759 Speaker 2: I think it was. I was there right after the flooding. 395 00:21:19,799 --> 00:21:21,799 Speaker 3: There was a big flood and there was a lot 396 00:21:21,839 --> 00:21:24,519 of damage that was done to the parks along the 397 00:21:24,559 --> 00:21:28,079 water waterways. There so I was, I was driving around 398 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,759 out there looking at all that all the flooded campgrounds 399 00:21:31,799 --> 00:21:33,200 and damaged trees. 400 00:21:32,839 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 2: And there were quite a few people fishing. 401 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 3: So I stopped and asked them what they were, what 402 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,279 they were fishing for and if they had any luck, and. 403 00:21:41,839 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 2: Decided that I was going to stop. 404 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:47,759 Speaker 3: And my originally I wasn't even planning on staying in Vermont. 405 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,799 I was, you know, planning on going on to New 406 00:21:51,839 --> 00:21:58,079 Hampshire and maybe staying there for a couple of days. 407 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,039 And but yeah, I just I just decided I wanted 408 00:22:01,039 --> 00:22:04,480 to try fishing there, and I already had any fishing 409 00:22:04,519 --> 00:22:05,039 gear with me. 410 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:06,039 Speaker 2: Not really. 411 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: No, do you have a license? 412 00:22:08,839 --> 00:22:09,039 Speaker 3: Yeah? 413 00:22:09,079 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 2: I did, I did get I think I got a 414 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:11,799 three day license or something. 415 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 9: Okay, Yeah, I don't want to I don't want you 416 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,400 to get jumped up for fishing without a license. 417 00:22:16,839 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, there after me for poaching already. 418 00:22:19,759 --> 00:22:22,799 Speaker 9: So I mean that's a that's a serious offense at Vermont. 419 00:22:23,039 --> 00:22:24,559 Speaker 2: Yeah. 420 00:22:25,319 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 9: But uh anyway, Uh so so you're I mean, are 421 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,920 there are other areas in Vermont did that you're that 422 00:22:35,079 --> 00:22:37,960 you are familiar with or is it just because this 423 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,839 is off the ferry route kind of that that you 424 00:22:41,839 --> 00:22:43,400 you decided to stay in Essex. 425 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 2: No, I've been. I've been all through Vermont various occasions. 426 00:22:50,039 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 3: I don't I don't always stay in like Burlington area. 427 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 2: It's uh, it's kind of on the way to New 428 00:22:57,559 --> 00:22:59,920 York though, from get route I take, so. 429 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: Well, I know what I'm doing now. 430 00:23:02,559 --> 00:23:05,279 Speaker 7: Yeah, I was thinking I wish I would have found 431 00:23:05,279 --> 00:23:08,279 this spot because this was what that conversation where my 432 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,319 sister was like, I think he was going north to 433 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,720 bury a cash and I was just like, stop right there. 434 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,440 And it turns out this is I think something like 435 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,240 twelve miles from Essex Junction. 436 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's it's it's it's like a fifteen minute drive. 437 00:23:22,759 --> 00:23:25,839 Speaker 7: Right, so like one or two trips to this cash 438 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,880 would make forty miles on your car. Also, this phone 439 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,799 line runs exactly to his hotel. Oh yeah, it does, 440 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,200 and the hotel, and it also continues past his hotel 441 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:41,079 and ends. 442 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,279 Speaker 1: Up at the cash, ends up at. 443 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 7: Where the cash was, which was probably right around here, 444 00:23:47,839 --> 00:23:49,680 which also had a substation right there. 445 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 8: He could have walked that under the cover of darkness 446 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:53,480 and had no problems. 447 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 7: I mean, that could be why he picked that hotel 448 00:23:57,319 --> 00:23:58,960 and why he stayed there twice. 449 00:23:59,079 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 1: Actually more than twice. If you listen to that clip carefully, 450 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,480 you'll hear Key say he stayed in that hotel a 451 00:24:07,519 --> 00:24:11,640 couple of times before his trip in June of twenty eleven. 452 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 6: Because you could walk that phone line instead of walking 453 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:15,319 down that. 454 00:24:15,319 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 7: Susie whatever road or whatever that is, you could walk 455 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,119 behind all the businesses. It goes right to the parking 456 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,920 lot where the courier's car was left, which is literally 457 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,839 like the phone line goes right through it. And then 458 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,119 I guess the cash was somewhere near the dog park, 459 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:33,079 which this is. 460 00:24:33,039 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 6: The dog park, so I don't know. 461 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 7: I in the recordings I heard, I looked at the 462 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:41,400 map and said, this is where I would look for 463 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,640 a cash. I don't know where they thought his cash was, 464 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,480 but this is where I think it probably was. 465 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,319 Speaker 1: It's a new year, which means colder days like below zero. 466 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,920 If you're where I am, and this is the moment 467 00:24:53,039 --> 00:24:56,680 your winter wardrobe really needs to deliver. If you're craving 468 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,839 a winter reset, start with pieces truly made to last 469 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,880 season after season, and quince springs together premium materials, thoughtful 470 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,119 design and enduring quality so you stay warm. Look sharp, 471 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,240 and feel your best all season long. Quinn says everything 472 00:25:12,279 --> 00:25:16,359 you need men's Mongolian cashmere sweaters, wool coats, leather and 473 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,720 swede outerwear that actually hold up to daily wear and 474 00:25:19,799 --> 00:25:23,279 still look good. Their outerwear is especially impressive. Think like 475 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,000 down jackets, wool coats, and Italian leather outerwear that keep 476 00:25:27,039 --> 00:25:30,440 you warm when it's actually cold. Quince's classic styles that 477 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,079 will hold up year after year. And if you know me, 478 00:25:33,279 --> 00:25:35,400 you know that the way I look is pretty important 479 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,200 to me. I'm very into fashion and I love Quince 480 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,119 and go back time and time again. I think I 481 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,799 already told you about the Mongolian kashmere hoodie that I 482 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,039 was eyeing. Well, it's super comfortable, it looks good, and 483 00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:49,079 I basically wear it every night now when I get 484 00:25:49,079 --> 00:25:51,680 home and comfy. I even got my friend Steph some 485 00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:54,799 Quince basics for the holiday, and she too has been 486 00:25:54,839 --> 00:25:57,559 wearing them an awful lot around town. That's how great 487 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,160 Quince is. Refresh your winter wardrobe with Quints. Go to 488 00:26:01,279 --> 00:26:04,759 quints dot com slash t c b S for free 489 00:26:04,799 --> 00:26:07,720 shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five 490 00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:11,920 day returns now available in Canada too. That's quints q 491 00:26:12,279 --> 00:26:17,440 u I n CE dot com slash TCBs free shipping 492 00:26:17,559 --> 00:26:20,920 and three hundred sixty five day returns quins dot com 493 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:26,319 slash TCBs. Jordan, would any of this line up with 494 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,319 like army training for you? 495 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 8: So a lot of a lot of things we would 496 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,519 do with maps would be train associations. So you'd you'd 497 00:26:34,519 --> 00:26:38,480 find a some sort of notable landmark and you'd base 498 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:44,279 your movements off of that landmark. And sometimes when you're uh, 499 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:46,839 when you're going to like if you're if you're going 500 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,680 to set up like a fighting position, you would measure 501 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,000 out to a specific object, like in a field or something, 502 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,160 and you'd know exactly how far away that thing was 503 00:26:56,519 --> 00:26:59,200 in relation to you and the next group of people. 504 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,319 So yeah, it tracks and makes sense. If he were 505 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,880 using the substations in where the telephone lines is like 506 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:12,960 a landmark, he would probably have exactly how far away 507 00:27:13,839 --> 00:27:18,079 from that spot he would be. And I know infantry 508 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,480 guys are trained more in keeping what they call a 509 00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:25,640 pace count. So like we use like beads on a 510 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,279 piece of rope, and every count how many steps you 511 00:27:29,319 --> 00:27:34,599 take to make like a meter, and then for every 512 00:27:35,279 --> 00:27:37,559 fifty meters you keep counting your steps in your head, 513 00:27:37,559 --> 00:27:39,400 and every fifty meters you take a beat over to 514 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,799 the other side so you can measure your distance. So 515 00:27:43,079 --> 00:27:45,599 and that's common practice with them, So I wouldn't be 516 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,079 the least bit surprised if he knew from his landmark 517 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,039 exactly how far away everything was. 518 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,559 Speaker 1: Since this call, I was able to get my hands 519 00:27:54,599 --> 00:27:58,079 on the US Army Special Forces cashing technique side. It's 520 00:27:58,079 --> 00:28:00,720 about forty pages, so I obviously you won't read it 521 00:28:00,799 --> 00:28:04,039 all to you. But in addition to what Jordan just explained, 522 00:28:04,079 --> 00:28:06,599 there were few points that I thought were worth mentioning. 523 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:12,440 In discussion around burial sites, it says to consider activities 524 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,599 of the local population. Normal activity, such as construction of 525 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,519 a new building, may uncover the cash site or impede 526 00:28:19,559 --> 00:28:23,279 access to it. As this relates to what we're talking about, 527 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,839 substations likely will not be moved at any point. In 528 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,559 discussing concealment, it says that concealment requires the use of permanent, 529 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,440 man made or natural features to hide or disguise the cash. 530 00:28:39,839 --> 00:28:43,960 When discussing criteria for site selection, it says to make 531 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,039 sure there are at least two secure routes to and 532 00:28:47,079 --> 00:28:51,880 from the site, and in map surveying, it says usually 533 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,559 a thorough systematic survey of the general area designated for 534 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,559 the cash is required. The survey is best done with 535 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,559 a large scale map of the u area as is available. 536 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,240 It will provide the indispensable reference points for locating a 537 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:10,960 cache site, such as confluences of streams, the Dungeness Spit, campground, 538 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:17,440 dams and waterfalls. As we've previously mentioned, road junctures and 539 00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:24,440 distance markers, villages, bridges, churches and cemeteries. There's a cemetery 540 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,960 on the same road half a mile down from Blake 541 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:33,880 Falls Reservoir. When discussing personal reconnaissance, it says, ordinarily an 542 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,480 observer who is not a known resident of the area 543 00:29:36,559 --> 00:29:39,279 can pose as a tourist or a newcomer with some 544 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,640 reason for visiting the area Allah Laplace. However, if the 545 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,319 observer is a known resident of the area, he cannot 546 00:29:47,359 --> 00:29:51,240 suddenly take up hunting, fishing, or wildlife photography without arousing 547 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,200 interest and perhaps suspicion, but he must build up a 548 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,720 reputation for being a devote of his sport or hobby. 549 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,720 When discussing reference points, any durable landmark that is identifiable 550 00:30:04,759 --> 00:30:08,000 by its title or simple description can be an immediate 551 00:30:08,039 --> 00:30:12,319 reference point, for example, the only Roman Catholic church in 552 00:30:12,359 --> 00:30:15,279 a certain village or the only bridge on a named 553 00:30:15,359 --> 00:30:19,240 road between two villages. The instructions must also include a 554 00:30:19,279 --> 00:30:24,599 final reference point, which must meet four requirements. One it 555 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,240 must be identifiable, including at least one feature that can 556 00:30:28,279 --> 00:30:32,319 be used as a precise reference point. Two it must 557 00:30:32,319 --> 00:30:34,920 be an object that will remain fixed as long as 558 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,000 the cache may be used. Three it must be near 559 00:30:39,119 --> 00:30:41,799 enough to the cash to pinpoint the exact location of 560 00:30:41,839 --> 00:30:46,279 the cache by precise linear measurements from the final resting 561 00:30:46,319 --> 00:30:50,480 point to the cache. And four it should be related 562 00:30:50,519 --> 00:30:53,640 to the immediate reference point by a simple route description 563 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,839 which proceeds from the immediate reference point to the final 564 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:02,000 resting place. The following objects, when available, are sometimes ideal 565 00:31:02,039 --> 00:31:08,799 reference points. Small unfrequented bridges and dams, boundary markers, mile 566 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:14,119 markers and culverts along unfrequented roads, a geodetic survey marker, 567 00:31:14,599 --> 00:31:19,400 battle monuments, and wayside shrines. When such reference points are 568 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,079 not available at an otherwise suitable cash site, natural or 569 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,680 man made objects may serve as final resting points. Distinct rocks, 570 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,799 posts for power or telephone lines, intersections in stone fences 571 00:31:32,839 --> 00:31:40,079 or hedgerows, and gravestones in isolated cemeteries. In discussing marking techniques, 572 00:31:40,119 --> 00:31:42,680 it reads the marker must be an object that is 573 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,559 easily recognizable, but that it is meaningless to an unwitting observer. 574 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,039 For example, a small rock or a branch with its 575 00:31:50,119 --> 00:31:53,640 butt placed at the point selected for the emplacement of 576 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:59,880 the cache. Needless to say, this guide, which Israel would 577 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:03,799 have been trained on, points to all the known locations 578 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,160 and presumed locations of Keyes's cases. 579 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:09,759 Speaker 6: Yeah, I was always thinking. 580 00:32:09,799 --> 00:32:11,799 Speaker 7: The way he talks, it seems like he did something 581 00:32:11,839 --> 00:32:13,720 like that, like when he talks about worst amount is 582 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:14,359 out and stuff. 583 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: January is here and we often spend the entire month 584 00:32:19,279 --> 00:32:22,599 fretting about turning ourselves inside out to become the best 585 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,680 version of ourselves. But sometimes the best version of yourself 586 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,720 is the one who allows themselves to pursue attainable goals 587 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,119 and more importantly, let go of the stresses and worries 588 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,039 that no longer serve you. My greatest takeaway from my 589 00:32:37,079 --> 00:32:39,799 therapist Jane is not to fret about the things I 590 00:32:39,839 --> 00:32:42,920 can't control, and that means letting go of how others 591 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,000 perceive me and not trying to take on everyone around 592 00:32:46,039 --> 00:32:51,200 these problems. It's been an uphill but emancipating battle. And 593 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,960 maybe this January, instead of beating yourself up for not 594 00:32:54,079 --> 00:32:57,680 being perfect, you just take care of yourself by working 595 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,759 with a licensed therapist were you too can learn to 596 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,599 let go and grow into a better version of yourself. 597 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,799 Better Help makes it easy to get matched online with 598 00:33:07,839 --> 00:33:11,119 a qualified therapist. Sign up and get ten percent off 599 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,839 at betterhelp dot com slash tcb. That's better h e 600 00:33:16,039 --> 00:33:19,200 LP dot com slash tcb. 601 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 7: Here's the flaming Gorge spot that I think. I don't 602 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:24,119 know if you checked here, but. 603 00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: I went there. It's yeah, I would love it. I 604 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,960 went there. It's massive, and I just got to the 605 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,480 point where I was like, I. 606 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,319 Speaker 7: I know it might be a lot less massive now 607 00:33:34,359 --> 00:33:38,680 if you check it again, because okay, there's flaming gorge, right, 608 00:33:39,839 --> 00:33:41,480 there's only really one substation. 609 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:42,759 Speaker 6: Well there's one up here too. 610 00:33:42,759 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 7: There's a couple areas, but this, if you just zoom 611 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,119 weigh in, this is actually super weird because if you 612 00:33:49,119 --> 00:33:50,880 look at it on a Google map, you'll see what's 613 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:51,440 around here. 614 00:33:53,359 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 6: What's the guy's name who they just found his truck 615 00:33:55,799 --> 00:33:56,359 last summer. 616 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:01,279 Speaker 1: Kathy's referring to Steven Willard Anderson, who we covered last season. 617 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,680 He disappeared on June third, two thousand and four, while 618 00:34:04,759 --> 00:34:07,920 driving from Salt Lake City to his family cabin on 619 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,719 the Flaming Gorge Reservoir. Keys had just returned from Utah 620 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,559 that February and was seen again in Utah the week 621 00:34:15,599 --> 00:34:19,039 that Stephen went missing. Of course, that sighting is unverifiable. 622 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,519 Just this past summer, Stephen's truck was found submerged in 623 00:34:23,599 --> 00:34:26,960 Flaming Gorge Reservoir. His remains were still in the truck, 624 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,519 and while the police suspect no foul play, they have 625 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:32,840 not been able to determine his cause of death. 626 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,559 Speaker 7: But he was on his way to his cabin, which 627 00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:38,679 is right next to this, which I found out after 628 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:39,199 all of this. 629 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:41,599 Speaker 6: I was like, where do I know that name from? 630 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:47,039 Speaker 7: But anyway, there is a little boat ramp right here, 631 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,159 right here, there's a parking lot, like a dirt parking 632 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:55,280 lot right there for that boat ramp, and the power 633 00:34:55,360 --> 00:35:02,159 line runs right here. So if it was me, that's 634 00:35:02,199 --> 00:35:04,519 probably where I would check is under this power line. 635 00:35:04,519 --> 00:35:06,559 In fact, probably right here would be my first spot. 636 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,320 There's also another good spot. I think it's right here 637 00:35:10,679 --> 00:35:14,480 this power line. So that's probably the area I would 638 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,920 focus on if I went back to Lavy Gorge. 639 00:35:17,519 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: Can you go to southern California? 640 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:30,159 Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, you yeah. So here's parents and here's Bernascobi Beach. 641 00:35:31,079 --> 00:35:33,679 Here's the power line that runs behind it. Of the 642 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,719 rocks where it sounded like maybe he went up that 643 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:38,719 hill but I don't know. 644 00:35:39,199 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: Well, and that like it. There's a bunch of like rocks, 645 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,119 like the like the rocks he hit it under in 646 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:50,400 Blake Falls Reservoir, which are also the at Hawk Mountain too, 647 00:35:51,119 --> 00:35:54,079 And it's all right along that ridge right there. During 648 00:35:54,119 --> 00:35:58,679 the filming of Citizen Detective, retired FBI agent Bobby Chicone 649 00:35:58,679 --> 00:36:01,440 and I met at Lake Paris and as we surveyed 650 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,280 Bernisconi Beach where the very credible sighting of keys digging 651 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,800 up a cash occurred, Chaconne pointed to that specific crop 652 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,679 of rocks and said that that right there is where 653 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:15,000 keys would hide a kill kit. 654 00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 7: But yeah, I mean it kind of it narrows down 655 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,119 the search field. If if it's definitely going to be 656 00:36:22,159 --> 00:36:24,119 tied to phone lines and stuff, I mean, you had 657 00:36:24,119 --> 00:36:25,159 to have some kind of method. 658 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,599 Speaker 1: I think it's the most sound thing we've seen so far. 659 00:36:30,079 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 6: I hope it turns. 660 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 7: I hope it pounds out, and I just want them 661 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:35,079 to find some evidence. 662 00:36:35,199 --> 00:36:37,320 Speaker 6: Man, it would be so amazing. 663 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 1: There has to be some simplicity to all this because 664 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:44,880 he remembered it all so effortlessly. I think this makes 665 00:36:45,639 --> 00:36:47,920 this makes it easier because I think even if you're 666 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,599 like looking for a boat ramp or a cemetery, that's 667 00:36:50,639 --> 00:36:52,800 going to be harder to find. But if you're looking for. 668 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,639 Speaker 7: Oh yeah, all these years, I've been like, because I 669 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,480 live like right by deep Obey, so I've always been like, 670 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:01,840 if I I thought he was bearing cash is way 671 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,599 back then I would be how would I even know 672 00:37:04,639 --> 00:37:07,440 where to look? Though, there's a boat ramp every every 673 00:37:07,639 --> 00:37:11,199 like half a mile, there's a river, there's a campground, 674 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,039 there's a trailhead. So I'm like, how did he do this? 675 00:37:14,159 --> 00:37:18,559 It's crazy? But there has to be something. So I 676 00:37:18,599 --> 00:37:21,760 read the Army Training Manual for casing and stuff, and 677 00:37:22,159 --> 00:37:25,000 there's always something. There's got to be, like you know, 678 00:37:25,519 --> 00:37:29,000 railroads or something. But with him, I really feel like 679 00:37:29,079 --> 00:37:31,079 you've been onto it for since the start with the 680 00:37:31,119 --> 00:37:35,760 phone lines, and I think maybe just like zeroing in 681 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,400 more on the substations and then he knows there's phone 682 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,599 lines going whichever directions from that. 683 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,320 Speaker 8: Well, keVs just made a good point. They're they're very 684 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,559 permanent structure, so they're not going to be going anywhere. 685 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:48,079 Speaker 1: Yeah. 686 00:37:48,159 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 7: Yeah, they could build a shopping mall out there at 687 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,400 Flaming Gorge and probably they're not going to move those 688 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:53,840 phone lines. 689 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 6: It would be a huge deal if they did. 690 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is very interesting. 691 00:37:58,119 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, really interesting. 692 00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 6: Saying thank you. 693 00:38:02,119 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 1: That's also in the same stretch that is highlighted on 694 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:05,639 the map. 695 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 8: So mm hmm, Hey he didn't do that, watch yourself. 696 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,760 Speaker 2: Too many us not to put. 697 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 5: Break up the thoughts. 698 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: So this episode was written, researched, edited and produced by 699 00:39:45,079 --> 00:39:48,920 Josh Hallmark, with additional research by Kathy Nation, Jordan Taylor, 700 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,719 and Michelle Tooker. This episode featured Kathy Nation, Jordan Taylor, 701 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,760 Michelle Tooker, and Shana Lensky and the episode was made 702 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,320 possible by the following Patreon producers Amy Basil, Kendall, c 703 00:39:59,519 --> 00:40:02,800 Ash Fish, Heather Horton, Whedon, Sherry d Kristin Hoffman, Dale Axton, 704 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,440 Stephanie Taylor, Drew Vipond, Amelia Hancock, Christina Sisson, Nicole and 705 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,719 Dennis Henry, Julian, Natalelna Holiday, Rural, Jur Tuesday Woodworth, Kathleen 706 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,599 s Nnett, l Casey Jensen, Richardson, sc Benjamin Choppa, Fong, 707 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:20,400 Dan del Rossi, Trista, Nicole Pink, jenj Cory D, Robin Carroll, Michelle, Jordan, M. K. Luser, 708 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,159 Sarah C. John Comery, Kathy Nation, Virginia Williams, Carry, Jordan 709 00:40:24,199 --> 00:40:28,199 T Bethany, David Begley, Ally, Lauren Ferry, Chris S. Tory Meyer, 710 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,840 Sabrina Abbott, Megan Dagel, Ashley Cooplan, Michael Randall, Dwayne C. 711 00:40:32,119 --> 00:40:35,599 Gentricola and Trixie. Thank you to True Crime Bullshit's newest 712 00:40:35,639 --> 00:40:40,719 Patreon supporters, Mark G. Christine M Betsy Kristin, Noir, Slickfreak, Sarah, 713 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,559 Emily B. Reese, Jessica L Liz B. Needy, Heather E 714 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,679 and Miriam R. To support the investigation and get AD 715 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,679 free episodes, go to Patreon dot com, slash Studio both 716 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,800 and This episode included music by Sonic Yard, with featured 717 00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:14,719 music by the Foundry Field Recordings starting the line taking 718 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,800 the trucks holding the time and smalls. 719 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:23,639 Speaker 6: He trowsing, does fust a crystal. 720 00:41:26,559 --> 00:41:30,719 Speaker 5: No one exclaim how did you es? 721 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 7: No f f. 722 00:41:33,559 --> 00:41:34,679 Speaker 6: Father the press. 723 00:41:35,119 --> 00:41:38,400 Speaker 5: Then he goes the track. Now it is time that 724 00:41:38,840 --> 00:43:30,599 gown up. That's perfect storming. Still need to extends this 725 00:44:00,199 --> 00:44:00,320 um