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up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey,

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it's dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Richard Campbell.

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Speaker 1: We're here for episode nineteen hundred and eighty five. Yeah,

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the year that we both graduated from high school.

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Speaker 2: Right, no, graduating eighty four. But you know I'm an overachiever.

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Speaker 1: Well that's true. You skipped a grade I and only

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one only what I mean? Okay, Well, anyway, we're here

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with Schmooley Angel. We'll be talking to him in a

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few minutes. But first, well, as long as we're on

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nineteen eighty five, let's run through what happened, all right?

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All right? Well, International Youth Year, United Nations. It was

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a tragic year for Ethiopia. The famine in Ethiopia prompted

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international humanitarian efforts and I got to thinking.

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Speaker 2: That's live AID.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Live Aid. Happened, you know, feed the world. But

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also like there's so many more famines that have happened

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in the last I don't know ten years that are

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just as huge, and you know, we've become kind of

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immune to hearing about them. I think.

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Speaker 2: Well, the other reality, of course, is that we make

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far more calories than is needed to feed everyone in

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the world. All payments now are political. Yeah, there's enough food,

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it's just you choose to feed people or not.

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Speaker 1: Mikha Al Gorbachev became the leader of the Soviet Union,

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and there was some earthquakes and an eruption in Columbia

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of Nevada Del Ruiz, Mexico City had an earthquake, but

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windows one point zero yes.

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Speaker 2: Ye hundred bucks for one point oh.

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Speaker 1: I remember it was basically a DOS shell. It was terrible.

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That was it was a good proof of concept. The

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Domain Name system was created DNS in nineteen eighty five.

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Very cool.

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Speaker 2: The first dot com eroil gets registered. Then you want

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to guess what it was. I don't know nothing. It's

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nothing fun Like you would think it'd be sex dot

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com or something, but no, it was Symbolics dot com Symbolics. Yeah, wow,

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it was company okay.

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Speaker 1: Top ten movies Back to the Future, Rambo, First Blood

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Part two, Beverly Hills, Cop Rocky four, Cocoon, The Goonies,

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Witness Loved Witness, Police Academy two, their first assignment of

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view to a Kill, and The Breakfast Club.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Of course, the Color Purple Reanimator, Fright Night. There's a

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lot of good movies in nineteen eighty five.

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Speaker 2: But maybe it's just our age that we like all

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the movies from nineteen eighty five.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Probably, I mean this was our movie time, right, Yeah,

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so you have some you have a list, I hear.

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Speaker 2: I do as usual. I'm not going to go on

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the shuttle side. There were nine Shuttle missions in nineteen

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eighty five. I'm not going to list them all to

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Discovery the shuttle. Discovery did the most work that year,

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flew five of the missions, so they would turning them

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over pretty fast. Right, We're just a year before the

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Challenger disaster, which changes everything. Speaking of Challenger, in nineteen

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eighty five, Challenger had the only ever abort to orbit incident.

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This was sts fifty one f so on the way up.

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So if you remember how Shuttle flies, it's about two

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and a half minutes with the solid rocker bushes and

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its separated. At three and a half minutes, there was

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a sensor failure on the fuel turbopump for the center

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and SSME the center engine. It was reading as over

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temperature and so it failed and then which is serious.

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But about two minutes later, at five point forty three,

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the second sensor failed. With both sensors down, the computer

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automatically shuts off the engine.

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Speaker 1: So did they know that it was the sensors that

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failed or did they just see these high temperature readings.

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Speaker 2: They're seeing the high temperature readings, and there is an engineer,

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her name is Jenny Howard, the booster systems engineer, who's

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analyzing what's going on and realizes that it's likely the

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sensor around the time at the eight minute mark where

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sensor fails on the right engine.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: And she realizes if the second sensor fails, the computer

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will shut off that engine and they'll lose the orbiter

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and its crew. And so in that time span, imagine

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this whole thing's happen in four or five minutes. You've

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got to figure it out enough that she tells the

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crew to disable the or inhibit automatic shutdowns. Just yeah,

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and this would be a good movie. It was if

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it came out in nineteen eighty five, right, It just

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happened so quickly, like the entire we forget that the

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entire time runtime of those engines is like eight and

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a half minutes, and then they're in orbit, and so

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now the reality is being down an engine. And this

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is before the software was fantasy enough to run the

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other engines for longer. So at the end of the

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eight and a half minutes when it shuts down, they

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are aboording to orbit. So they have not reached the

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orbiting intended which was three hundred and eighty five kilometers.

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They're two hundred and sixty five kilometers. That's high enough

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to stay in orbit. It's about one hundred and seventy miles,

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and so they do their entire mission from that lower orbit.

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Only time an engine ever failed on the Shuttle on

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the way up, and only because of the quick thinking

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of this engineer of Jenny Howard, that they saved that

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entire mission. Jenny Howard hero Challenger flew three times that year,

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including that particular mission. And then this was the first

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year that the Shuttle Atlantis was flying, and so Atlantis

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will fly twice.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Eighty five is also we're coming up on Haley's comets return,

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which is actually eighty six, and so Japan launches a

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spacecraft called Sekakaki specifically to go observe Haley's comment by

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and doing that becomes only the third nation ever at

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the time to send off an interplanetary flight something above

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orbit Earth orbit, and it's to go out to Haley's comment.

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Later in the same year, the Europead Space Agency will

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launch Gyatto, which is doing the same thing you're going

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after Haley's comment.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: And we'll talk more about that in the next show

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in nineteen eighty six, when Haley actually comes to the

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view around Earth and how a big deal that was.

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On the Soviet side, the Soviets fly to had actually

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launched two more missions to Venuses are the Vega missions

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versus the Venera missions. These are newer vehicles they launched

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in December of eighty four, but they actually reached Vetus

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in eighty five. Their fly by probes, the carrier vehicles

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that actually drop the landers down on Venus then do

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a slingshot around Venus to go also intercept Haley's comment,

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so they both of those did that, and then the

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Landers themselves were very much like the Veanera missions. They

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went down to the surface. But most of what we

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know about Venus comes from these Venera and Vega missions.

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All of these will be the last. That's it for space.

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I want to talk about two general science things. One

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I think is very well, they're both relevant to us,

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but very relevant to you. Is this is the year

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that Robert Ballard founds the Titanic. Yeah, that's right, and

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that's side of woods Hole, just not that far from you.

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Speaker 1: And he landed at the Mystic Aquarium that's his home

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center now and he's got a lot of Titanic exhibit

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And of course I grew up in Mystic, so yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is it's important to me. You're part of

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the world, so I don't know how much you know

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of the story. Of course, after Titanic sinks, with folks

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like Jacob Astris over going down there and the Guggenheims

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were on there too and died on the ship, there's

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a lot of interest in finding and recovering the ship,

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maybe recovering bodies. There's a lot of ealth that went

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down and so forth, and there's all these ideas, but

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of course they're ridiculous. They never go anywhere. The first

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real attempts to find Titanic at all. It's actually a

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wealthy oil man. This is a nineteen eighty a guy

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named Jack Grimm. Before the tech billionaires, there were wealthy

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oil people that did silly things with their money, and

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so he had some sonar systems and so forth. He

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had multiple missions over several years and never found Titanic,

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although once Titanic was found, they realized that in nineteen

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eighty three his crew and equipment traveled almost directly over

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Titanic with their senses just weren't able to detect it.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: In that same time span, Robert Ballad is actually doing

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work for the Navy with a system they called Argo

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and Jason, as in Jason and the Argonauts. And Argo

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was a deep water submerciol designed to be towed behind

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a ship that then had a tethered rover that could

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call Jason that would go out from under that. Now,

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this was actually a classified system built for the Navy

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to find Thresher and Scorpion American submarines that had imploded

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him around the bottom, and he succeeded in doing that

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and what so Ballard basically was operating the system on

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behalf of the Nighty to learn how to find lost

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submarines and to maintain the equipments of it. Ever happened again,

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they could get to it quicker, right, They Threshered, the

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Scorpion had gone down decades before. And one of the

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things he learned any published papers on this is this

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whole when a disaster like this happens and the vehicle

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breaks up, the submarine or the ship, the lighter debris

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falls in a wider area, and you have these debris

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field effects, right that can cover kilometers. You know, the

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vehicle itself is small, the ship itself will be small,

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but it makes a big debris field. And so one

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of his insights from that is to search for the

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debris field rather than the search for the ship itself.

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Speaker 1: Because the debris fields kind of like breadcrumbs that'll lead

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you to the big parts exactly.

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Speaker 2: And so he had done this to find Thresher, and

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in between the times that he's doing searches for thresh

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Sure and Scorpion, while he still has a crew out,

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he would get a little bit of time to go

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do Titanic this is all in the Atlantic area, more

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or less, and sure enough, with only a week of

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time after doing search, after locating Thresher, he had a

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week of time. He goes looking for the debris field

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and finds a boiler which leads to another piece of debris,

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another piece of debris that leads them to Titanic.

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Speaker 1: He also found the Lusitania. If I'm not mistaken, didn't he.

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Speaker 2: He found the Lusitania. He found Bismarck like he's the man,

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but you know, he's also taught a lot of other

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people how to do it. Now, Paul Allen's crew who've

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gone after used to go after World War two ships

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Paul Alans passed away now found Musashi and so forth.

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Very much similar techniques. So man missions to the two

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Titanic will happen the next year. But this was the

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find and just I don't think most people realize, like

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largely financed by the US Navy to deal with submarine issues.

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All right, what more science one and this is also

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a long This is the year of the first practical

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lithium ion battery. Now, lithium ion batteries have been around

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long before that we associate this battery with a guy

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named Akira Yoshino, but you know other names and they're

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all like the three people shared a Nobel Prize in

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Chemistry in twenty nineteen for the lithium ion battery. M

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Stanley Whittington, who built the original batdies in the seventies.

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He used titanium diceulfide and lithium aluminum which had a

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tendency to create fires and it was a dangerous battery

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but worked. And then John B. Goodenough, the English fellow.

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Lots of people know that name nineteen eighty. His name,

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last name is literally good Enough, and this guy is

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an incredible inventor, Like the British are super proud of him.

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His story's awesome and you know, a little off the path,

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but he definitely improved the design in nineteen eighty by

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changing the catho to lithium cobald oxides. But it's a

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Kira Yashino that came up with the carbonaceous anode working

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at a company called the Sashi Casse and that battery

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design will be commercialized by Ashi Casse in their work

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with Sony to make the first commercial lithium I in

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batteriesnineteen nineties. But that battery design was completed by a

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Kirioshino net.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, very cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I couldn't pass either one of those up. They

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just seemed super relevant, right right, okay. On the competing side,

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nineteeny five is a banner year beyond Shawstrup publishes the

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C plus plus programming Language book and really sets the

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plus plus on its path.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: There. Microsoft also puts out quick Basic one point zero

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almost the same, No, not all, not at all the same.

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But if it's on a three hundred and sixty K

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five and a quarter inch floppy, so.

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Speaker 1: I down small pick Basic one point Oh yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Don't think it did.

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Speaker 1: No, I did from a from a bulletin board, you know.

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Speaker 2: No, yeah, there was bbs is then.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Most people remember version two because it's the one who

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had the id unit. I mentioned symbolics dot comedy in

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the first domain registered also in networking land NSF net

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that's the National Science Foundation. Net starts up using ecipip

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to connect a bunch of supercomputing centers together Princeton, Pittsburgh,

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University of California, San Diego, University of Illinois, a Berta,

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Champaigne and Cornell. As soon as then they use TCPIP,

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which kind of a big deal new network at major

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universities all TCPIP. Within a few years, dozens of more

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educational networks are tied on to that as well. This

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is also around the time that ARPAET starts to break up.

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Parts of it will go to NSF net and other

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parts will go over to the military side to mill net.

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But you now have the foundation of what's going to

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become the Internet. In nineteen eighty five, very cool, Intel

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puts out the eighty three eighty six, the first full

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thirty two bit processor made by Intel. The three eighty

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six will lead to new machines, the three eighty six. Yes,

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Michael Dell, in his his dorm room in university starts

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a company called PC's Unlimited and he makes a Turbo

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PC compatible PC Compatible for seven ninety five, and they'll

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eventually become del It's also the year that the Amiga

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one thousand is released.

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Speaker 1: Ah, very cool. I remember playing that thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, twelve ninety five without a monitor and the inside

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of the case had the designer signatures on it, including

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the pawprint of j Minor's dog. Mitchie and Natari releases

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their Atari st as the competitor, the amigaan in the

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same year. Yeah, and it has a gem based guy

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in it as well. I used plenty of both. And

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last but not least, the new manifestow being GANU is

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not unix by Richard Stalman, the whole idea of software

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free software, but if you're going to use it or

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contribute to it, you contribute back. A new manifesto is

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sort of the foundation of modern open source thinking for

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Richard Stalman. Again, lots more to that story, but that's

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the foundation of it. And that's what I got when

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we're talking about nineteen eighty five. Oh my god, I

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told you it was a big list. She's he's been

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very patient, hanging out. I apologize.

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Speaker 1: I apologize. Okay, Well let's go on to better know

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framework roll.

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Speaker 2: All right, man, what do you got?

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Speaker 1: Okay? This is another creation from one Simon crop Ah.

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Speaker 2: Simon.

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Speaker 1: He's such a genius he and he's very prolific.

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Speaker 2: He is too.

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Speaker 1: So you know what Mermaid is, right.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that the sort of a woman not really a woman,

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might have been a dougong.

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Speaker 1: Kind of half fish half no. No. So this is

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a JavaScript tool that came out in twenty fourteen. Oh,

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to create I guess you would call them flow charts,

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but organizational charts.

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Speaker 2: And relationship charts. I presume his data relationship charts. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So Simon basically created a tool that you send it

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a database connection string and it generates a chart of

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the nice entire database. That's crazy. Yeah, take a look

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at it. I mean it's beautiful. Mermaid is beautiful, by

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the way, it's just uh, it's just great. But you

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know this will take a sequel server database or Enny

307
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framework core model h and just generate beautiful UI.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, awesome, dude, that's cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And Simon Simon, he posted in the general channel

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of our slack of apppnax slack and he goes, yeah,

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I did this.

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Speaker 2: I did a thing.

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Speaker 1: I did a thing. Yeah. It's like, oh, of course

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you did.

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Speaker 2: Of course he did. He does things.

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Speaker 1: Spend some time with your wife, Simon.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just signs about marriage breaking down. Is that what

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we're talking about it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? He is that or all the kids have flown

320
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the coop and he doesn't have anybody to right, All right, Okay,

321
00:16:53,039 --> 00:16:55,399
cool stuff, man, Well that's what I got Richard, who's

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talking to us?

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Speaker 2: Grady comment of the show twelve sixty seven. I know

324
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,639
we're going to talk about about employment, and it made

325
00:17:01,679 --> 00:17:04,359
me go back and look at when we talked about

326
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deployment mechanisms and continuous integration and stuff a lot, which

327
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is a while ago. This is a comment from Jeffrey

328
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Pillermo show called Azure Continuous Delivery. It's from twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: And as also, we did a bunch of shows on

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Octopus deployments, so we're like, we just haven't talked about

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deployment much lately now. This particular comment, and again its

333
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a few years ago, has comes from Keith Williams where

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he says, great show. It's good to hear that people

335
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having success with Team City and Octopus deploy that's what

336
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we're talking about at that time. It's also refreshing to

337
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hear someone downplay the thirty four releases per day type stories.

338
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Remember that was a thing. We were so excited about

339
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your deploy all the time, and now we just don't

340
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ever talk about that. Yeah, he does go out to say,

341
00:17:42,759 --> 00:17:44,400
you know, we do continue to deploy to our test

342
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site and that can get up to tenploymes a day.

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But come on, I know, but a nitpick small organizations

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do and need the custom software from time to time.

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My first yeah gets supported the custom SEQL server back

346
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end with Microsoft Access front end. Ouch held records of

347
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a best dose within customer properties for a twenty person company.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: We manage the continuous delivery by place in the ADP

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pile into a shared folder and writing a log on

351
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script and VBA to copy it to each user's desktop

352
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,119
during log it. So in your version was just to

353
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log out, log into update clever. This is back in

354
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two thousand and five, to the best of my knowledge,

355
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still going to this day because old software never dies.

356
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Friend never ever dies. But true enough, well some of

357
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:32,519
it should, Yeah, but no, not wrong and probably tricky

358
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to make work on a phone. But but you know,

359
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,400
he makes a valid point. A company specializing with dealing

360
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,839
with his best dose and they need a particular day store.

361
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I wonder if now they'd have an M three sixty

362
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five account so they'd be doing it as a power app.

363
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Who knows it is interesting to think you know a storm.

364
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,279
But Keith, thank you so much for your commented. A

365
00:18:51,319 --> 00:18:52,680
copy of music cobi is on its way to you,

366
00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:54,559
and if you'd like a copy of music cobuy write

367
00:18:54,599 --> 00:18:56,240
a comment on the website at don at Rocks dot

368
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,119
com or on the facebooks. We publish every show there,

369
00:18:58,279 --> 00:18:59,799
and if you comment there when I read in the show,

370
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:00,480
id your copy?

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00:19:00,599 --> 00:19:03,400
Speaker 1: Music? Go Music to Code by twenty two tracks of

372
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,000
twenty five minute goodness music that will help you stay

373
00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:10,880
in a state of flow while you're writing code. Track

374
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:12,880
twenty three. I didn't get it out for Christmas, but

375
00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,279
it's coming very soon. All right, cool, and you can

376
00:19:16,319 --> 00:19:19,240
get the entire collection in MP three, flak or wave

377
00:19:19,279 --> 00:19:22,480
formats at music to Code by dot net. All right,

378
00:19:22,559 --> 00:19:26,759
let's bring on Smoothly Anglard. We first met years and

379
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,240
years ago in New York City. I can't remember the event.

380
00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:31,319
Richard probably does.

381
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Speaker 2: I don't know, man, that's a long time ago.

382
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,680
Speaker 1: It was so it was a long time ago.

383
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:38,359
Speaker 3: I think it was the road trip.

384
00:19:38,839 --> 00:19:43,920
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, yeah, all right, So let me read his

385
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,720
bio cutting his programming chops on the dot net two

386
00:19:46,799 --> 00:19:51,039
o betas in two thousand and five. Smoothly Anglard grew

387
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,519
to love developing software. He started out using vb net,

388
00:19:54,519 --> 00:19:57,519
but moved to C sharp quickly and never looked back. Well.

389
00:19:57,559 --> 00:20:00,200
Most of his work is in C sharp Smoothly has

390
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,640
professional experience with cross platform development and Java c plus plus,

391
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:09,279
web development and JavaScript noe JS, and database development with

392
00:20:09,519 --> 00:20:13,720
Microsoft seql server, Postcress SQL and my sqel, and data

393
00:20:13,759 --> 00:20:20,079
integration services using different transport protocols like Jason GeoJSON XML

394
00:20:20,319 --> 00:20:24,599
and Google protocol buffers. Welcome, Schmooley, Thank you.

395
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:26,960
Speaker 3: I have to say it sounds a lot nicer when

396
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:28,039
you're reading my description.

397
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,160
Speaker 1: Well I had to third personize it. But that's that

398
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,200
comes with a job, you know's it.

399
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,279
Speaker 2: Aren't you a blue badge Smoothly.

400
00:20:37,079 --> 00:20:39,440
Speaker 3: Now, I am. That's a relatively recent thing.

401
00:20:39,839 --> 00:20:41,200
Speaker 2: Oh gratulations.

402
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,279
Speaker 3: Well it feels recent. It's now been, dear God, nearly

403
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,039
five years. I will be five years in April. Wow wow,

404
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:48,240
it feels like yesterday.

405
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,279
Speaker 1: Wow wow. That's great. So what are you working on?

406
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:57,079
Speaker 3: I work on the Microsoft Store to clarify the app

407
00:20:57,079 --> 00:20:59,559
on your computer. Not the lovely website where you buy

408
00:20:59,559 --> 00:21:00,519
surface computers.

409
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,640
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, yeah, it's the software store.

410
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:05,680
Speaker 3: Yes, And you're one of the few people who when

411
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,119
I tell that, they don't say, oh, you have an

412
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,960
app store, Yes, we have an app store.

413
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it used to be called the

414
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,359
Windows Store. But I don't think you call it that anymore,

415
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,279
right is now? Is it the Microsoft Store?

416
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:15,559
Speaker 1: Now?

417
00:21:15,599 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 3: It is the Microsoft Store? Right if it makes you

418
00:21:18,039 --> 00:21:20,599
feel better. I have been in many meetings where high

419
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,200
up executives still call it the Windows Store.

420
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Speaker 2: Nice. Yeah, but I mean that really was started around

421
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,599
the Windows eight time frame, right, Like, that's that's when

422
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,160
we needed a store because they were going after the

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tablet market.

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Speaker 3: That was the you had your eight, you had win

425
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,880
on those RT right store or nothing?

426
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:41,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was no other way to load stuff onto

427
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:42,640
an RT device.

428
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:43,079
Speaker 1: Yep.

429
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Speaker 3: And there are parts of the code base that are

430
00:21:45,039 --> 00:21:48,680
from back then. You look at them and you're like,

431
00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:51,720
why does this be? Why is the code? Oh right,

432
00:21:51,759 --> 00:21:53,960
it's that old. Okay, now this makes sense now it's.

433
00:21:53,799 --> 00:21:55,880
Speaker 2: From two thousand and eight. Yeah, oh man.

434
00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,880
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, because of versioning system changes, we don't actually have

435
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,680
the history all that way, all the way back unfortunately.

436
00:22:03,759 --> 00:22:07,359
Oh sure, we only have the history for I think

437
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,839
it goes maybe a year before I joined, so it's

438
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,119
not very far back. We can actually go so a

439
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,480
lot of time decisions we literally have no idea anymore.

440
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:16,559
It's like, why was it done this way?

441
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,920
Speaker 2: I don't know Is that all in GitHub? Now? Is

442
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,079
that why they migrated the GitHub and the history was lost? Oh?

443
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,559
Speaker 3: I wish that was it. No, it was it was

444
00:22:24,559 --> 00:22:28,359
a case of changing teams and they didn't know how

445
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,599
to apparently, I guess they didn't understand how to move

446
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:32,799
things properly with gets. So the history we just have

447
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,079
a giant initial commit effectively.

448
00:22:35,279 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 2: Oh man, but.

449
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,759
Speaker 3: No, we're in We're in Azure DevOps.

450
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, So you know a few things about distributing

451
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,960
Windows applications. It looks like you, I know, well, it

452
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,440
looks like you've been doing it a long time, you know,

453
00:22:50,519 --> 00:22:51,960
with various technologies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is kind of my day job now at

455
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,200
this point. But I've done them all. I've done I've

456
00:22:58,279 --> 00:23:01,839
used Wix. God have a love hate with that. Yeah,

457
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,960
but now we m that's our lovely MSI. But now

458
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,039
we have MSIX much nicer, yes, in my opinion at least,

459
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,720
But yeah, no, we want Distributing apps is hard. We've

460
00:23:12,759 --> 00:23:14,440
all done it. It's how do I get my app

461
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:18,960
out to a bajillion people? Used to be Floppyes, then

462
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,240
it was CDs. Then you had downloading it, you had click.

463
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Once we had we had our silver light apps where oh,

464
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,279
just go to this website you don't even enough to

465
00:23:30,279 --> 00:23:33,920
install anything. Yeah, and now we have app stores. Mostly

466
00:23:34,319 --> 00:23:36,799
everyone has their app store. That's how we're doing on

467
00:23:36,839 --> 00:23:37,240
the phone.

468
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 2: Should we be distributing regular apps via app store?

469
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:41,319
Speaker 1: Like?

470
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 2: Is that advantageous in any way?

471
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:44,039
Speaker 3: Generally?

472
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Speaker 1: Yes?

473
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,599
Speaker 3: I mean then you don't have to deal with hosting,

474
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,440
although most apps you're not dealing with that anyways. Most

475
00:23:49,519 --> 00:23:52,799
apps nowadays, if you're not in an app store, you're

476
00:23:52,839 --> 00:23:55,640
probably hosting an open source app on GitHub, so they're

477
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,480
doing the releases for you. But if you're doing that,

478
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,119
that means you have to you have to now deal

479
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,079
with telling people where to go hope they find your app.

480
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:07,799
And then there's always the fun of how do I

481
00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:09,839
update it right? And that is one of the big

482
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,000
things app stores give you is that it's not only

483
00:24:12,079 --> 00:24:14,400
how do I get it, but it's how do.

484
00:24:14,319 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 1: I update it right? It's one thing if I build.

485
00:24:17,519 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 3: An app and it's distributed on get ub I now

486
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,720
have to find an updater. And yes, there are bajillion

487
00:24:22,759 --> 00:24:24,680
ways to do it. I've built some of my own

488
00:24:24,839 --> 00:24:28,200
over the years, but how do I deal with updates?

489
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,519
How do I check for them where they host it.

490
00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:32,599
How do I I have to do version checks and

491
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,559
all that. I don't have to if it's in the store,

492
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,200
I just give them my new version of my app.

493
00:24:38,599 --> 00:24:41,680
Updating is the problem of the store. How they download it?

494
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,279
Do they do deltas do so it's more efficient? Do

495
00:24:44,319 --> 00:24:46,640
they do it? How do they check for it? That's

496
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,240
not my headache. I just now have to worry about

497
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,000
how do I build my app, not how do I

498
00:24:51,079 --> 00:24:52,200
install it and update it?

499
00:24:52,279 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 2: Right?

500
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,640
Speaker 1: This is one of the things that Mac users listen

501
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,359
to conversations like this and like, what are you talking about?

502
00:24:58,400 --> 00:24:59,799
You know, I just go and I see there's a

503
00:24:59,839 --> 00:25:03,319
new version, and I download it because it's you know,

504
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,359
it's built into the platform. And whereas the Microsoft Store

505
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,319
is kind of an option for people who've been doing it,

506
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,359
you know, in all these kind of janky ways for

507
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:15,119
over the years.

508
00:25:15,279 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a bajillion ways. And it should be noted

509
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,319
that going into the store doesn't mean we take over updates.

510
00:25:21,839 --> 00:25:23,279
That doesn't need to be how we do it. That

511
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,680
is the golden path. We'll provide everything for you, but

512
00:25:26,759 --> 00:25:29,400
you have the option of just giving us your exc

513
00:25:29,559 --> 00:25:31,880
You have an exc it installs your app. You can

514
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,519
submit that to us and we will now distribute that

515
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,799
updating is now on you. That installer is now on you.

516
00:25:37,839 --> 00:25:39,440
But now we're just a distution channel.

517
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,799
Speaker 1: So there isn't anything where you could go to like

518
00:25:41,839 --> 00:25:44,279
Programs and Features and control panel. Look at all your

519
00:25:44,279 --> 00:25:47,200
apps and see the ones that need updating. Right click

520
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,319
and update right I mean.

521
00:25:49,319 --> 00:25:51,519
Speaker 3: Right now, not in settings, but if you in the

522
00:25:51,559 --> 00:25:54,319
store we did. We have somewhat recently added the fact

523
00:25:54,319 --> 00:25:57,599
that we will show updates for those apps that aren't

524
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,839
managed by us if we can. Sometimes we do know,

525
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,039
sometimes we don't. It's up to the apps how well

526
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:08,960
their installers work. A somewhat funny example recently was a

527
00:26:09,039 --> 00:26:11,839
discord they're now in the store, but we don't handle

528
00:26:11,839 --> 00:26:15,759
their updates. They had a bug where they would not

529
00:26:16,039 --> 00:26:19,720
correctly update the version information in Windows when they updated.

530
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 2: Oh man, an update bug.

531
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 3: We would perpetually think there was an update, but there

532
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,920
wasn't one, and we didn't know because we're looking at

533
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,680
the version installed, the latest version. Oh there's an update,

534
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,799
we should give it to you. So they recently got

535
00:26:33,839 --> 00:26:35,799
that in they got the We were able to get

536
00:26:35,839 --> 00:26:37,440
them to squeeze that in before the new year, so

537
00:26:37,599 --> 00:26:40,039
most people should now have that update. But now they

538
00:26:40,079 --> 00:26:43,599
correctly update that information and we correctly don't think there's

539
00:26:43,599 --> 00:26:46,839
an update. So that is the downside they had to build.

540
00:26:46,839 --> 00:26:49,920
They've built an update, it had bugs, and that's on

541
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,599
them instead of our update. Now, yes, our updater could

542
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,039
have bugs, but it's not on.

543
00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: You, right, yeah, yeah, you know that the whole purpose

544
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,240
of the cloud to have somebody new to blame.

545
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, And more importantly, you pay to get blame

546
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:06,960
them blamed.

547
00:27:07,519 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 2: Yes, I give you money. Now I get to blame

548
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:16,160
you for style. Yes, oh man, I mean the classic

549
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,880
argument here is this is why we do web apps

550
00:27:19,079 --> 00:27:22,759
because zero deployment, like deployment has always been a challenge.

551
00:27:22,839 --> 00:27:26,119
It's just it's good to get into. You know, what's

552
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,759
the twenty twenty sixth way that deploy an app if

553
00:27:28,759 --> 00:27:30,359
you're going to build a client side app.

554
00:27:30,599 --> 00:27:35,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it varies, and web apps are great, but

555
00:27:35,079 --> 00:27:36,599
you can still put them in the store. The store

556
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,400
has a lot of web apps from straight up PWAs

557
00:27:39,519 --> 00:27:42,880
you can find in the store, as well as apps

558
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,240
that are web apps but they're locally hosted, like say discord.

559
00:27:46,279 --> 00:27:48,200
We all know they wrote it. It's a web app,

560
00:27:48,319 --> 00:27:51,039
but they're running an electron they're not dealing one in

561
00:27:51,079 --> 00:27:53,799
the store. Electrons in the store. Slack is in the store,

562
00:27:53,839 --> 00:27:56,400
and Slack is using our updator, so you can be

563
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,680
an electron app and use our updater. Those are not

564
00:27:58,759 --> 00:28:03,279
mutually exclusively, so Slacks in the store, they're in updated

565
00:28:04,319 --> 00:28:08,680
PWA's that are in the store would be Facebook is

566
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,599
in the Facebook and I'm blanking on the other one.

567
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,880
I was going to use us my example now, but

568
00:28:15,079 --> 00:28:15,599
they're in the.

569
00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:18,319
Speaker 2: Store WhatsApps of PWA. But yeah, there's a whole.

570
00:28:18,079 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 3: Bunch WhatsApp actually is in a PWA. Okay, well, not

571
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:27,960
a conventional PWI. They are an interesting case. Facebook Messenger

572
00:28:28,039 --> 00:28:31,680
recently just got fortunately they got rid of it. I

573
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,880
can't think of the word brain, but they were actually

574
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,720
an interesting case of the PWA you installed from the

575
00:28:37,759 --> 00:28:39,759
store and the PWA you would installed from the web

576
00:28:39,799 --> 00:28:42,480
we're in't the same thing. Actually, when you installed it

577
00:28:42,519 --> 00:28:46,359
from the store, they installed a notification process in the

578
00:28:46,359 --> 00:28:50,799
background that was native code, so there was actually a difference.

579
00:28:50,839 --> 00:28:52,759
And luckily enough, the icons were also different, so you

580
00:28:52,759 --> 00:28:56,400
could slightly tell which one you had, but you will

581
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,480
find PWA's in the store. And the advantage there is

582
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,720
find a searchability. When you search in the store, you'll

583
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,160
find them. That's one of the advantages also you get

584
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,359
from even if you don't use our update, if you're

585
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,119
in the store, people will search for them. We can

586
00:29:11,119 --> 00:29:15,000
handle those things, and we integrate with many parts of Windows.

587
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,039
You're typing into the search and start, we will suggest

588
00:29:18,079 --> 00:29:21,839
apps from us. A feature we're currently experimenting with and

589
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,720
I think some insiders have now is the open with dialogue.

590
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,799
Instead of us just showing you, hey, these are applications

591
00:29:27,799 --> 00:29:30,400
that are installed on your system, we will actually show you,

592
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,039
like the top three apps that can handle that file format,

593
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:34,480
even if you don't have them installed.

594
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: Right, So just the open width has been improved exactly.

595
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,519
Speaker 3: And if you're not in the store, we can't show

596
00:29:41,559 --> 00:29:42,599
that information about you.

597
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,079
Speaker 2: It's a great sales channel.

598
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 3: So even if you are APWA and sure you don't

599
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,960
need to go through us, you're not getting our update

600
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,079
advantages and all that. But now you have the ability

601
00:29:53,079 --> 00:29:56,279
to say, hey, I can open this file format, do

602
00:29:56,319 --> 00:29:58,119
you want to use it? And now you can be

603
00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:58,799
installed there.

604
00:29:58,839 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: All right, this seems like good place to take a break,

605
00:30:01,279 --> 00:30:03,960
so we'll take a quick break for some important messages

606
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,240
when we come back. I got some questions about the updator,

607
00:30:06,359 --> 00:30:14,200
so stick around and we're back. It's dot net Rocks.

608
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,799
I'm Carl Franklin. That's my buddy Richard Campbell. Hey, and

609
00:30:16,839 --> 00:30:20,599
that's our old friend Schmoui Angelard. We're talking about distributing

610
00:30:20,799 --> 00:30:24,599
Windows apps, and you mentioned a couple of times they're

611
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,599
using our updator. They're not using our updator yep. So

612
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,839
if I have an application that I want to distribute

613
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:36,559
through the through the Microsoft Store, the Microsoft Store, right, yeah, yep.

614
00:30:36,599 --> 00:30:39,839
And I wanted to be helpful with updates, what does

615
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,839
that do for me? Exactly?

616
00:30:42,079 --> 00:30:45,839
Speaker 3: The updater having us do the updates. Mainly, the big

617
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,839
thing is that you don't deal with them yourself. It's

618
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,319
our CDN, so you don't have to worry about how

619
00:30:51,359 --> 00:30:54,799
you're distributing it. We have the up checking logic, Hey,

620
00:30:54,839 --> 00:30:56,920
is there an update? Is there not an update? We

621
00:30:57,039 --> 00:30:59,880
handle making sure that you don't have to worry about

622
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:04,039
Oh so someone's hitting my update server pajillion times. And

623
00:31:04,119 --> 00:31:06,039
we will also do delta updates for you.

624
00:31:06,079 --> 00:31:08,559
Speaker 1: But how does that manifest itself? To the user, like

625
00:31:08,599 --> 00:31:11,240
does the user when they run my program, does a

626
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,119
dialogue box pop up and say there's a new version available,

627
00:31:14,119 --> 00:31:15,039
do you want to download it now?

628
00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:17,559
Speaker 3: Because that's that is actually up to the app we

629
00:31:17,839 --> 00:31:20,400
in the background. By default, we will be updating your

630
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,720
apps once we check once a day. By default, the

631
00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:25,000
user can click the check for updates as much as

632
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,160
they like. But apps have control over if they want

633
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,680
to force an update. For example, what's app does that?

634
00:31:31,759 --> 00:31:33,759
They will do a check and if your version is

635
00:31:33,799 --> 00:31:35,759
two out of date, they will force you to update.

636
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,880
There are some apps that I know will do a

637
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,200
check and then that you They let you decide.

638
00:31:41,759 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: So is there an RSS feed or something like that

639
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:44,839
that we subscribe to?

640
00:31:44,839 --> 00:31:49,279
Speaker 3: So there's an API. We have the store APIs on Windows.

641
00:31:49,519 --> 00:31:52,519
There win our tapis, so you can use them from

642
00:31:52,519 --> 00:31:55,559
any app and they let you say check is there

643
00:31:55,559 --> 00:31:58,319
an update? You can then pop up a dialogue about it.

644
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,200
You can force the update. You can even say hey down,

645
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,799
download it, but only update it once the user restarts me.

646
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: Right, so, and all the logic of you know, remind

647
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,960
me in three days, five days whatever. You could do

648
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:10,720
all that yourself.

649
00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, those kind of things so we don't as

650
00:32:14,279 --> 00:32:16,400
we don't do the reminding. That's up to you, but

651
00:32:16,839 --> 00:32:18,960
we give you that power. You have the ability to

652
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,519
do that, and then we'll update you if your app

653
00:32:22,559 --> 00:32:25,119
is run. If the app is running, we won't force updated.

654
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,279
Apps can say we are allowed to, but the we won't.

655
00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:32,880
So that way you don't lose your important context or

656
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:33,759
whatever it is you're doing.

657
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:34,359
Speaker 1: Right.

658
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,119
Speaker 3: Obviously, a user can always force it if they want to.

659
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,880
Users have choice in the end of the day. There, yeah,

660
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,880
and as do companies. We have GPO policy. So a

661
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,440
company wants to say, hey, don't update these apps. I

662
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,640
want them at whatever version they're at, they're stuck there.

663
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: Now.

664
00:32:49,039 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 3: We have GPO policies and we are working on building

665
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,160
more over time. So companies aren't at the mercy.

666
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,559
Speaker 2: So you are able within the store to put your

667
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:03,079
internal company app that are only available to your company employees.

668
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,599
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, no, no, that isn't on us anymore. That's the

669
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,319
Store for business. We had that for a while.

670
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: Well wait before you answer that question, what's a GPO policy?

671
00:33:11,599 --> 00:33:11,799
Speaker 2: Yeah?

672
00:33:11,839 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 3: Sorry, ah, yes, no group policy object.

673
00:33:16,279 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 2: I think group policy objects. Yeah okay, yeah, my memory

674
00:33:19,759 --> 00:33:20,039
is good.

675
00:33:20,319 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: So these are Windows policies basically at the enterprise level.

676
00:33:23,559 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 3: Yep. These are We're mostly used to hearing the term

677
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,480
MDM or mobile device management now and people think of

678
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,680
that for their mobile devices. Windows does do that, but

679
00:33:33,799 --> 00:33:37,200
from historical perspective, we call them group policy objects. Yeah,

680
00:33:38,119 --> 00:33:40,039
and they're the way you can set it. So from

681
00:33:40,079 --> 00:33:42,880
a company's perspective, they have a giant hammer. They can

682
00:33:43,039 --> 00:33:45,960
just literally say you can't run the store. So if

683
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,000
a user tries to launch it, we'll give them a

684
00:33:48,079 --> 00:33:50,599
nice dialogue and says, hey, we're sorry your company blocked us.

685
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,920
We'd obviously love if they didn't do that, but they

686
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,039
do have the giant banhammer. They can also control our

687
00:33:59,119 --> 00:34:01,960
auto updating, and they can control what apps you can install.

688
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,960
So even if we'd love you to not hammer band

689
00:34:06,039 --> 00:34:09,719
the entire store, but you can still limit what apps

690
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,719
the user can and can't install, and we will check

691
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,679
that information before we install apps.

692
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,199
Speaker 2: This has been a run ass topic routinely, but it's like, okay,

693
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,039
we only allow these versions of Adobe Reader, and so

694
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:22,840
I can push out a policy to any of my

695
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,800
company machines that says you can go to the store

696
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,400
and get Adobe Reader, but only these versions.

697
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,519
Speaker 3: That's a bit more complicated there, because we have the

698
00:34:31,559 --> 00:34:34,639
concept of if it's a thing like oh, they have

699
00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:37,400
different products for each version, so twenty twenty five and

700
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,840
twenty twenty four different products. You can do that, but

701
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:42,440
right now we don't have the ability for you to

702
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,400
say only this product, but only this particular version. I

703
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,360
don't think. I admittedly, as I say it, I'm part

704
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,960
of my brain is saying no, you can. But I'm

705
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:52,559
not confident.

706
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure I've done a show on that, truly,

707
00:34:54,920 --> 00:35:00,679
But I'm with you the I mean, you really see

708
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,559
there's different categories here, right there's I have an app

709
00:35:03,599 --> 00:35:05,639
I want to sell. I put it on the store

710
00:35:05,679 --> 00:35:08,559
because it gives you marketing and a sales engine like

711
00:35:08,639 --> 00:35:09,960
you will cut me a check.

712
00:35:10,159 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, we also do that. We to do that,

713
00:35:13,519 --> 00:35:16,119
you have to use our installer. We don't do that

714
00:35:16,159 --> 00:35:18,760
if you don't, and that's for licensing reasons, because if

715
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,119
you're not using our installer, we can't control licensing concepts,

716
00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:24,599
which are required obviously if you buy it. But if

717
00:35:24,599 --> 00:35:27,519
you buy it through us, then it's installed. You can

718
00:35:27,519 --> 00:35:31,880
have it on up to installed onto ten devices actively

719
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,719
at once. So it's not that you get it. You

720
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:37,239
can have it on your laptop. You can have it

721
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,039
on your desktop. You can have it on your Xbox,

722
00:35:40,079 --> 00:35:42,400
which is one of those depending on how you build

723
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,519
your app. You can distribute it even on an Xbox

724
00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:49,199
if you're somehow still running a Windows phone. Even be

725
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:55,280
my guest, it seems unlikely the lemetary logs, my friend

726
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,159
I have a man. Admittedly, all those are people who

727
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,239
are running whin have hacked Windows on ARM onto their phones.

728
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,679
I haven't seen an actual Windows phone in a while,

729
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,360
but I have seen in our logs the store is

730
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,000
running on a Lumia nine point fifty, and I just

731
00:36:10,159 --> 00:36:10,519
love that.

732
00:36:11,119 --> 00:36:12,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, someone is doing it.

733
00:36:12,679 --> 00:36:13,039
Speaker 1: That's cool.

734
00:36:13,119 --> 00:36:15,079
Speaker 2: I've got mine in my in a drawer somewhere. I'm

735
00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:16,880
sure it doesn't hold a charge anymore. It's just a

736
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:18,159
shrine in my sadness.

737
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 3: Oh no, no, that's assuming the battery hasn't expanded on

738
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:21,239
you yet.

739
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it has set fire to the building. So

740
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,760
then there, I mean, there's the I want to be

741
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,840
paid for my app put it in the store. Then

742
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,159
there's the I want to give away my app for free, yep,

743
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,679
handle my distribution and my updates yep.

744
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,199
Speaker 3: So you can do both those. We handle that and

745
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,599
then either way, as you said, you get the marketing,

746
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,639
you get the open with experience, and as we expand

747
00:36:43,679 --> 00:36:47,719
more things, you'll get those. It also allows for from

748
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,239
the enterprise perspective you have in tune. In Tune has

749
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:54,599
access to our catalog. Yeah, so if you're assumed generally

750
00:36:54,599 --> 00:36:56,480
that's only for free app stuff, paid apps get but

751
00:36:56,599 --> 00:37:00,000
more complicated there. But your app now can be automatic

752
00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:04,719
installed on people's machines and then you got it there.

753
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,519
So you've got all that. And then you also have

754
00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:10,519
if you're not using in tune, you also have win get,

755
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,239
so command line access. Wind Get can install all our

756
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:19,440
free apps, so you get a massive amount of development ease.

757
00:37:20,039 --> 00:37:22,519
People can just win get has their configuration files where

758
00:37:22,559 --> 00:37:24,760
they just like configure your repo for you. Well, that

759
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,719
can include installing store apps. So you want to get

760
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,360
Python from the store, be my guest. You want to

761
00:37:30,599 --> 00:37:33,639
get visual studio, it's in the store, visual studio code

762
00:37:33,679 --> 00:37:36,000
it's in the store, and all these things you can

763
00:37:36,079 --> 00:37:40,679
just quickly easily install and you find it. It's nice

764
00:37:40,679 --> 00:37:44,119
and easy like that, and we're constantly adding apps.

765
00:37:44,639 --> 00:37:47,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder if it's a conversation that devs need

766
00:37:47,199 --> 00:37:49,920
to have with their it as well about hey, if

767
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,840
you want me to employ this through the store, because

768
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,719
always the question is do I want this app publicly visible? Ogain?

769
00:37:57,079 --> 00:38:00,199
Speaker 3: Can I control who can see it? You have some

770
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,800
level of control right now. The control is effect. It's

771
00:38:04,159 --> 00:38:05,760
it's kind of more like how you would think of

772
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,280
like test flight on iOS, where you can give a

773
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,519
bunch of msas Microsoft accounts and we will only allow

774
00:38:12,559 --> 00:38:16,679
these people to get the app. So if so, you

775
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,880
can kind of do that. Obviously in a tiny shop

776
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,719
that wouldn't be so bad. Giant corporation not so good.

777
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,000
That's where you start looking at the intune side of things.

778
00:38:25,079 --> 00:38:29,000
But admittedly, the store right now is public only. You're

779
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,400
either in the catalog or you're not. We don't have

780
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,320
the idea of a hidden catalog. The best you could

781
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,159
do is have an app that's not listed, meaning you

782
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,320
have to know it's there to find it kind of thing.

783
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 2: So you can do that. But that's security by obscurity,

784
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:46,119
that's right, That's exactly.

785
00:38:46,519 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it will depends on what it is. If

786
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:50,840
it's an app. We there are apps in the store

787
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,199
where it's like it's obscurity. Plus you need to like

788
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,199
log in, so it's like the app is useless to them,

789
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:57,719
to somebody ran with it.

790
00:38:58,199 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems to me that the store is really

791
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,840
beneficial for those who want to distribute a publicly available application.

792
00:39:06,039 --> 00:39:08,519
Speaker 3: Yes, that is our primary focus.

793
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, because the stuff you're talking about with updates and everything, like,

794
00:39:12,679 --> 00:39:15,119
we could do that stuff. I mean, you know, it's

795
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,280
just looking at a manifest file somewhere, you know, and

796
00:39:19,599 --> 00:39:20,800
a quick API for it.

797
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 3: But then you have we can do it, but then

798
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:24,599
you have to have the logic to check. And then

799
00:39:24,639 --> 00:39:26,519
you have to deal with if your app is huge,

800
00:39:27,159 --> 00:39:30,039
now you're downloading the entire thing again, do Delta updates

801
00:39:30,039 --> 00:39:31,920
for you. We will calculate the difference.

802
00:39:32,079 --> 00:39:34,679
Speaker 2: And then you have to deal with remote workers. Like

803
00:39:34,679 --> 00:39:36,159
it's one thing to set up a file on an

804
00:39:36,199 --> 00:39:38,320
internal server and everybody in the office gets a new version.

805
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,079
It's another thing when you have a bunch of remote workers.

806
00:39:40,159 --> 00:39:41,920
Now it's got to be through the cloud, or it's

807
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,760
got to be through a VPN. Having help you right, like, yeah,

808
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,280
hevn help you. This is the I need you all

809
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,000
the log into the VPN to get a new version

810
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,960
of the app. And just watch your VPN crow yeah, right,

811
00:39:54,159 --> 00:39:55,559
your multi gigabyte file.

812
00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:01,559
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of all the commercial Windows apps that I use.

813
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,719
Most of them are hosted on their own branded website

814
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,480
and you download them and then they should they phone

815
00:40:08,519 --> 00:40:10,360
home and check for updates and tell you when you've

816
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:11,599
got a new version.

817
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,039
Speaker 3: Because they're a giant corporation, right exactly. When you're Adobe,

818
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,360
sure you have that reach, right, but you're a developer,

819
00:40:18,519 --> 00:40:21,480
even as medium sized developer team may not have that reach.

820
00:40:21,559 --> 00:40:24,480
We have CDN servers all over the world.

821
00:40:24,559 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 1: Which means yep, that's a benefit, and.

822
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 3: We're hosting it. It's our CDN. If you're using our installer,

823
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,400
at least, it's our CDN, which means you're going through

824
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,360
our system. And it's the same CDN we use for

825
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,719
other things like say Windows updates. So unless you're in

826
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,639
a place where they're blocking Windows update, our CDN will

827
00:40:41,679 --> 00:40:42,119
get through.

828
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: And if you are go somewhere else, come on, yeah,

829
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:47,400
we would block Windows updates.

830
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 3: It's like, uh, that's Richard's territory, I believe.

831
00:40:51,639 --> 00:40:53,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean he's he's with me, I'm sure.

832
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:58,039
I mean updates provide security, you know, in the in

833
00:40:58,079 --> 00:40:59,159
the big shops too.

834
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,599
Speaker 2: A lot of shops, like updates in the past have

835
00:41:03,199 --> 00:41:06,000
been blocked. Do you know that behavior is really you

836
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:07,760
know we now we talk about the bigger risk here

837
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,440
is on patch servers than it is bad updates. Yeah,

838
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,480
and so you know you're better off to get the

839
00:41:12,519 --> 00:41:14,719
update as quickly as possible to deal with the effects,

840
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,000
and you are to hold the update, find out you

841
00:41:18,079 --> 00:41:19,920
had a patch that could have fixed the problem, and

842
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:21,840
then you've got the problem because you didn't have time

843
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:22,679
to test the update.

844
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, so it's not as big a thing anymore. Yeah,

845
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,480
so we've got that, you've got our reach. You don't

846
00:41:29,519 --> 00:41:32,480
have to deal with that. But if you are a

847
00:41:32,519 --> 00:41:36,159
giant corporation like Adobe, Acrobat Reader is in the store

848
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,559
and they're not using our installer, but they get our reach,

849
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,360
and then you have other features like we recently rolled

850
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,960
out the multi installer where a person can have a

851
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,239
bunch of different apps and click install in one go.

852
00:41:48,039 --> 00:41:50,960
So Adobe now is once again part of that. It's

853
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:52,679
as Richard said, it's the marketing angle.

854
00:41:53,079 --> 00:41:55,199
Speaker 2: I usually do that with a wind gat script, but

855
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,239
you're telling me I can just do the store now.

856
00:41:57,159 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 3: We have a UI for it. It's not as controlled, right,

857
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,079
now it's experimental rolling it out. Uh, it has its limits,

858
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,280
but yeah, we are giving you the ability to install

859
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,039
multiple apps at one go.

860
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 2: At least if you know you've got five things, you

861
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,119
want the fact that you don't have to wait for

862
00:42:14,159 --> 00:42:16,679
each to install and go, here's the five things go.

863
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,840
That's a little more pleasant when Yeah, if you're whiting

864
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:22,840
a wind get script, it's because you're a geek and

865
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:24,800
you build a lot of machines. Like you want to

866
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,719
see a guy who knows how to configure machine fast.

867
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,760
You watch a guy like Paul Tharrott, and that guy

868
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,679
tests three or four laptops a week. Oh yes, his

869
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,199
box configuration process is polished. I've watched him in action

870
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,320
because he just does it so much. He's not a

871
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,440
normal hen Like most people don't build that many machines, right,

872
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,440
but in it you did all the time.

873
00:42:44,679 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, And the multi install experience is mostly the

874
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,440
idea is you just turned you've got a new computer.

875
00:42:50,039 --> 00:42:51,760
You want to install a bunch of apps kind of

876
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,159
thing that's you know what you want is focused? Yeah, yeah,

877
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,960
but we also have another advantage of going through us

878
00:42:58,039 --> 00:43:01,280
is that new PC experience the user logs and got

879
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,920
a new computer they log in, we can Windows itself

880
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,719
will offer the restore experience where we put back files

881
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,679
and stuff that includes apps that are using our installer.

882
00:43:10,679 --> 00:43:13,639
If you're in the store using our installer tech, then

883
00:43:14,039 --> 00:43:16,800
we will we can let the user just click the

884
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,199
restore button and we'll start reinstalling those apps for them,

885
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,079
like you can look almost like migrating.

886
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 2: Only if you're using your installer. Like yet another reason

887
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,920
to use your installer, as it means you'll be included.

888
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:28,320
You don't have to be top of mind.

889
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 3: I personally would say the only reason to not use

890
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,679
our installer is generally momentum, because you have your own

891
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,800
installer already, yeah, and you already using it. That's the

892
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,000
biggest reason I find is like it's a case of yes,

893
00:43:43,039 --> 00:43:45,239
there are advantages, but the effort it requires for us

894
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,599
to move it. The other reason is when you start

895
00:43:47,599 --> 00:43:51,559
getting into cross platform stuff, right, because obviously our installer

896
00:43:51,639 --> 00:43:55,400
is Windows only. Technically it can run on other platforms,

897
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,000
but I don't think anyone actually uses it for.

898
00:43:58,119 --> 00:44:01,039
Speaker 2: That, right. Yeah, But if you're making an app that

899
00:44:01,079 --> 00:44:02,440
also runs natively on a.

900
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,599
Speaker 3: Mac, yeah, that now it's a bit more complicated. It

901
00:44:05,639 --> 00:44:08,679
doesn't mean make using our installer doesn't make sense. See

902
00:44:08,679 --> 00:44:11,679
WhatsApp they use our stuff and yet their cross platform.

903
00:44:12,039 --> 00:44:15,039
But if you want to have one installer kind of thing,

904
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,920
then yeah, ours doesn't make as much sense. But for

905
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,800
a lot of apps, it's a very easy process. The

906
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,360
our installer is the MSIX both loved and hated. It

907
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,000
is pretty much just a zip. It's a zip file

908
00:44:27,039 --> 00:44:29,960
pretty much of your app, all the files you need

909
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,079
for it, and then an XML file that describes what

910
00:44:32,079 --> 00:44:34,480
you're installing in manifest, and in there you can do

911
00:44:35,039 --> 00:44:38,119
the manifest exactly and there you describe how to create

912
00:44:38,159 --> 00:44:41,519
start menu entries, what application, what excuse me, what file

913
00:44:41,559 --> 00:44:43,719
formats you can handle. You can also use it to

914
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,599
register more advanced concept you have a Windows service, you

915
00:44:47,639 --> 00:44:50,599
can register one. You're going back into calm days and

916
00:44:50,639 --> 00:44:53,000
you need to do out of process comm stuff. You

917
00:44:53,039 --> 00:44:56,280
can register that. You want to register a file, not

918
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:57,960
just a file handler, but you want to say, hey,

919
00:44:58,039 --> 00:45:01,199
I will give properties for the file or a right

920
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,039
click menu, all those things we will do.

921
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 2: And with that XML, yeah, is there a privilege request

922
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:09,480
and things like that. This is where you set up

923
00:45:09,519 --> 00:45:11,199
the rules for Hey, I want your camera and I

924
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:12,079
want this I want that.

925
00:45:12,079 --> 00:45:14,679
Speaker 3: It's all the manifest that's also where you document all

926
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,599
those things, right, and that's how it's the same system.

927
00:45:17,639 --> 00:45:19,519
You say, oh, I want to be able to elevate,

928
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,360
I want to be able to access the whole file system,

929
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,000
or I only need your documents folder and all those things.

930
00:45:25,039 --> 00:45:27,320
The things we think of for mobile apps usually oh,

931
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,119
this app is going to access your camera. Well, we

932
00:45:29,159 --> 00:45:32,159
do the same, and you can say no, yeah, and

933
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,639
so the user gets that. Obviously you don't want the

934
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:38,880
user to say no. Admittedly, a user nicety is that

935
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,760
it's easier to uninstall, but obviously as developer, you never

936
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,199
want them to get there. Yeah, but it is a

937
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,400
nicer experience for uninstalled if they need to and it

938
00:45:49,039 --> 00:45:51,000
are there limits to it? Yes, there are a few

939
00:45:51,039 --> 00:45:55,039
things you can't do. The biggest one is drivers. If

940
00:45:55,079 --> 00:45:57,559
you need to install a driver, you're going to have

941
00:45:57,599 --> 00:46:01,039
a bit of a headache. Technically, there's nothing stopping you

942
00:46:01,079 --> 00:46:03,480
from installing a driver from a technical perspective, but we

943
00:46:03,519 --> 00:46:07,880
will block you. We scan all our you submit an app,

944
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:09,840
we are scanning it, we are putting it. We will

945
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,079
trial install it on VMS in the cloud and see

946
00:46:12,079 --> 00:46:15,000
what you've done so, and we will run down through

947
00:46:15,039 --> 00:46:18,480
this virus scanner, malicious scanner and all those different things.

948
00:46:18,519 --> 00:46:21,159
So we are checking that you're not doing something we

949
00:46:21,159 --> 00:46:21,639
didn't tell.

950
00:46:21,519 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 1: You to do.

951
00:46:22,199 --> 00:46:24,039
Speaker 2: But the bottom line is, if you have an app

952
00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:26,880
that absolutely needs a driver, you need to go about

953
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:27,920
this a different way.

954
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:28,079
Speaker 1: Yeah.

955
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 3: Generally, yes, Obviously if you're a giant isv things get

956
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,880
a bit more complicated. Sure, like you're Intel or whatever.

957
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,000
We have ways to do that, but the over general,

958
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,719
the general rule is unless the driver is signed by Microsoft,

959
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,480
it's not in the store. Right, So that's how CIS

960
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:47,800
internals can install a driver. CIS Internals a powerful app.

961
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,400
It's in the store using our installer, So I like

962
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:52,599
to use them as the example. If cis internals can

963
00:46:52,639 --> 00:46:55,039
do us, then anyone.

964
00:46:54,679 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 2: Can, right. You just have to go through the rule.

965
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 1: So this internals works for you now, right.

966
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:00,760
Speaker 2: Microsoft?

967
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:07,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, right, yes, we really wanted him, but you

968
00:47:07,679 --> 00:47:12,159
know it will take your product too. Well. Yeah, but

969
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,800
they're in the store using our updator and they do

970
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,440
install a driver, but it's a Microsoft sign driver, so

971
00:47:18,599 --> 00:47:24,039
it's fine. Interesting, But yeah, generally speaking, there are very

972
00:47:24,039 --> 00:47:26,519
few apps I can think of that I would have

973
00:47:26,559 --> 00:47:29,719
installed on my computer. That wouldn't make sense. And the

974
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,679
biggest one, honestly is visual Studio. Code is Visual Studio,

975
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:36,079
not even Visual Studio code visual Studio. They're not going

976
00:47:36,079 --> 00:47:38,239
to use our installer because it's actually not one products,

977
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:39,800
it's like twenty different products.

978
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the install process is crazy.

979
00:47:42,039 --> 00:47:44,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, they have their own installer. That's how big it is.

980
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:46,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there are a case where it makes sense,

981
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:51,800
but most apps it doesn't. You don't need to be you.

982
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,119
What are you installing one thing? Your your got as

983
00:47:55,159 --> 00:47:56,440
I like to put it. If you can be X

984
00:47:56,519 --> 00:47:59,199
copy installed, yeah, you are perfect candidate.

985
00:47:59,280 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: Yep.

986
00:47:59,559 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 3: There is nothing you can pretty much be doing at

987
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,079
that point that we can't handle. Sure, and even those

988
00:48:04,079 --> 00:48:07,199
we can. As I said, Windows Services integration points with

989
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,599
Windows you don't have to deal with the registry. You're

990
00:48:09,639 --> 00:48:11,679
filling out an XML thing that we will tell you

991
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:13,840
when you try to create a package. Yeah, you did

992
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,719
something wrong, right, It's not you installing it into the

993
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:18,679
registry and now hoping you got it right.

994
00:48:19,159 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 2: So can we talk a bit about the various update

995
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,599
strategies because I know we have versions we hate and

996
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:29,920
versions we can tolerate. I use the Azure Explorer all

997
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,360
the time, and it'll always pop up and thinks says, hey,

998
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,719
there's an update. Do you want to install it now

999
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,559
or when you're finished? And I'm like, hey, I appreciate

1000
00:48:37,639 --> 00:48:40,400
that because I got stopped to do That's why I

1001
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,440
spend this and updating you wasn't one of them.

1002
00:48:45,599 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 1: Yep.

1003
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 3: So by default we do a check every twenty four

1004
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,199
hours right to see if there's updates, and if there are,

1005
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,639
we'll try to install them. If the app is in use,

1006
00:48:56,679 --> 00:48:58,840
we will still download it, but the install will then

1007
00:48:59,599 --> 00:49:01,800
fail and we see, oh you're using it will late

1008
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:06,199
to later when we retry, there's different logic and algorithms.

1009
00:49:06,599 --> 00:49:09,159
With a back off, we'll say okay, we try a bit, Nope,

1010
00:49:09,199 --> 00:49:10,880
still not fine. I'll try again later.

1011
00:49:11,599 --> 00:49:13,760
Speaker 2: So, as me as a dev, do I have some

1012
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:15,519
control here? Like? How did they?

1013
00:49:16,199 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 3: You do have some You can force it to be faster?

1014
00:49:19,079 --> 00:49:21,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, how did Azure Storage know how to pop that

1015
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:22,239
thing up? To me?

1016
00:49:22,519 --> 00:49:25,159
Speaker 3: You can do it faster? As a developer, you can.

1017
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,840
There's an API We'll we'll definitely put in the links

1018
00:49:28,679 --> 00:49:31,000
that you can say, hey, I want to know if

1019
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,519
there's updates and if there are, apply them, now apply

1020
00:49:34,639 --> 00:49:37,119
them when I'm done running whatever. So a lot of

1021
00:49:37,159 --> 00:49:41,920
apps do that, but you don't need to, and you can.

1022
00:49:42,159 --> 00:49:45,000
It's your choice. We're not going to force you to,

1023
00:49:45,079 --> 00:49:46,039
but you do.

1024
00:49:46,519 --> 00:49:46,679
Speaker 2: Now.

1025
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 3: The one thing we don't have is pinning. So if

1026
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,599
an app, when you install the app, it will be updated.

1027
00:49:54,119 --> 00:49:56,239
You can delay it as much as you'd like, but

1028
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,159
it will be updated because, as we said, with security,

1029
00:49:59,199 --> 00:50:02,039
we don't want Yes, you may want to hold onto

1030
00:50:02,079 --> 00:50:05,320
your version forever, but we don't really understand the concept

1031
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,960
of security versus Oh, I added a billion new features

1032
00:50:08,159 --> 00:50:11,960
with a billion new bugs, right, and therefore you will

1033
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:13,360
get your update. There's no question.

1034
00:50:13,559 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, because then what's the other way that? I mean,

1035
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:17,280
it's the awful way, which is you go to open

1036
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,239
the app and goes there's an update, and you will

1037
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,599
sit here while I update. Yeah. I also like how

1038
00:50:22,639 --> 00:50:25,320
the browsers do it where you get little icons just

1039
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,840
like hey, you should close this and reopen it for

1040
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,440
the new version, and it starts off with just like

1041
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,159
a little yellow and it gets right, it's like you

1042
00:50:32,199 --> 00:50:34,880
really need to do this, Oh yeah, you know it's

1043
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,679
been that week. I really really need you to do this.

1044
00:50:38,079 --> 00:50:40,800
Speaker 3: Yes, and you could do that. You will have to

1045
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,079
write the UI to do it, to check for updates

1046
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,920
and then show that button, and plenty of apps do that,

1047
00:50:46,039 --> 00:50:46,880
but you don't have to.

1048
00:50:47,159 --> 00:50:50,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, And I just appreciate if I'm working with

1049
00:50:50,639 --> 00:50:53,719
you that I will still want to give my by

1050
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,400
using the Microsoft Update or I'm not guaring taying my

1051
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:58,199
customer a bad experience.

1052
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is at the end of the day, and

1053
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,719
if the customer wants to force the update, they can.

1054
00:51:04,559 --> 00:51:06,800
In the store, we show you the list of apps

1055
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,599
that have updates, and if you try to update an app

1056
00:51:09,519 --> 00:51:12,519
that's currently running, we'll first time we say no, it's running,

1057
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,920
and then the user can say I don't care update anyways,

1058
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,519
and then it will be updated. Right, So the user

1059
00:51:18,559 --> 00:51:20,320
still is in control, right.

1060
00:51:20,199 --> 00:51:22,519
Speaker 2: Or at least they feel like they're in control.

1061
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 1: And that's the most important thing, like that feel think

1062
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:25,559
they're in control.

1063
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:32,639
Speaker 2: Feelings all right. Now, I get this and it makes

1064
00:51:32,639 --> 00:51:36,920
a good case for I just it lightens my load

1065
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,679
if I'm prepared to jump through the hoops deploying into

1066
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:42,000
the store in terms of making apps available, and then

1067
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,280
I can just push my updates up to the store

1068
00:51:44,519 --> 00:51:47,280
through the API, and that's then handled for it.

1069
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 3: You can do continuous integration.

1070
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:50,320
Speaker 2: And then if I want to make it pretty, I

1071
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:51,880
can write some code and interact with it.

1072
00:51:52,039 --> 00:51:55,079
Speaker 3: Yep, you can do continuous integration. As we were saying,

1073
00:51:55,159 --> 00:51:59,360
you have your fancy CI. We have actions for GitHub,

1074
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:03,360
actions for debt as your pipelines as well as just

1075
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,599
an outright command line tool that you can run and

1076
00:52:06,639 --> 00:52:09,280
you can therefore push your updates up to us and

1077
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,639
then boom, now we have the new version. So it

1078
00:52:11,679 --> 00:52:14,920
doesn't require you will need manual interactions for the first

1079
00:52:15,119 --> 00:52:17,559
upload because you've got to tell us all about your app.

1080
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,039
But when you're doing updates, you don't have to. You

1081
00:52:20,079 --> 00:52:23,199
can just have it as magical automation and we'll get

1082
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:24,320
it and distribute it.

1083
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: So have we talked about pricing yet We haven't.

1084
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,079
Speaker 3: And the good news is we recently rolled out that

1085
00:52:30,159 --> 00:52:32,800
now to go through US is completely free.

1086
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:34,199
Speaker 2: Oh that's a good price.

1087
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:37,039
Speaker 3: We don't charge you anything unless you make your users

1088
00:52:37,079 --> 00:52:40,239
pay something. We won't charge you, not even for registration.

1089
00:52:40,639 --> 00:52:40,880
Speaker 1: Wow.

1090
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,559
Speaker 3: So you have an app if it's free, there is

1091
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:45,079
literally zero cost to you.

1092
00:52:45,519 --> 00:52:49,119
Speaker 2: Wow. An is it the typical thirty percent?

1093
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 3: Yep, it's the thirty percent I think there are some

1094
00:52:52,039 --> 00:52:54,920
different numbers there based on like how much your app

1095
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,719
is used or whatever. I don't know the details, admittedly, sure,

1096
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:01,000
but it is a system of yeah, if you are

1097
00:53:01,159 --> 00:53:03,880
now charging your users will take the thirty percent cut.

1098
00:53:04,079 --> 00:53:05,039
But you don't have to.

1099
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:07,639
Speaker 1: But I'll let you also handle all the money, right,

1100
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:11,079
so people buy it from the store and then you

1101
00:53:11,119 --> 00:53:12,840
cut me check at the end of the month.

1102
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 3: There we deal with taxes.

1103
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,599
Speaker 2: And when you say handle all the money, you mean taxes,

1104
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:19,159
like that's the service.

1105
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:23,320
Speaker 3: We will handle sales tax and all that. We will

1106
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:26,599
handle conversion between units. We will handle your payment options.

1107
00:53:26,599 --> 00:53:28,639
The user wants to pay using PayPal, they want to

1108
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,280
use a credit card, we deal with that. And then

1109
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,599
also we're dealing with your licensing. As I said, you

1110
00:53:33,639 --> 00:53:36,280
install it now you have ten licenses to it, right, right,

1111
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,639
it's our headache, not yours. You don't have to do

1112
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,039
the check of oh is this user allowed to run

1113
00:53:41,079 --> 00:53:43,440
the app? There's no. You don't have to have an

1114
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,119
account system if you don't want it and all that. Nope,

1115
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:47,840
no user logs in and we're good.

1116
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,599
Speaker 1: Nice And again you said you can handle like Xbox

1117
00:53:50,679 --> 00:53:52,519
games and things like that. If I want to put

1118
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:54,159
ye a game out there.

1119
00:53:54,079 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 3: You want to make an app that runs on the Xbox,

1120
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,239
you can go through us, and you know what, you

1121
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:00,719
can still be paid also for that.

1122
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:02,760
Speaker 1: Android apps a lot of games that way.

1123
00:54:03,519 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 3: Android apps. Know, unless you're in China, then you get

1124
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:06,800
to be special.

1125
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,079
Speaker 2: But now I normally expect that I deploy iPhone apps

1126
00:54:13,079 --> 00:54:15,159
to the Apple Store. It just knows. They want their

1127
00:54:15,199 --> 00:54:18,400
cat am i Android apps to the Google Store. They

1128
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,079
want their cat Google Play and then Windows stuff.

1129
00:54:21,199 --> 00:54:24,119
Speaker 3: Yeah yeay, you you laugh. But I My favorite bug

1130
00:54:24,119 --> 00:54:27,079
report ever was a user complained that they couldn't install

1131
00:54:27,159 --> 00:54:30,400
a Mac app in the from the Windows Store.

1132
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:31,079
Speaker 2: From the Windows Store.

1133
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,280
Speaker 1: Oh that's funny.

1134
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 2: Done, dun't. Uh, that's awesome.

1135
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, so users can get confused, but yes, it is

1136
00:54:38,559 --> 00:54:40,079
the app store model you're used to.

1137
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:42,159
Speaker 2: It's not like we made stuff easy for him either.

1138
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 3: No, and unlike those other app stores, you don't have

1139
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:49,159
to use our payment system. We don't require it. Interesting,

1140
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,440
you can no legal We are not forced by legal

1141
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,800
or governments to allow it, but we will allow it.

1142
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:58,119
You want to use your payment system, be our guest.

1143
00:54:58,159 --> 00:55:00,639
Obviously we don't help you anymore. You don't get our

1144
00:55:00,679 --> 00:55:04,360
licensing features and all that. But you want to do it,

1145
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,199
it's your you can do it. Just like with the installers,

1146
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,559
will happily still host your app for us. It will

1147
00:55:11,559 --> 00:55:13,480
be effectively a free app as far as we know.

1148
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,599
But you can then have users have to pay somehow.

1149
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,559
Adobe does that for some of the products I know

1150
00:55:21,679 --> 00:55:24,280
for an example, they have where the installer. We have

1151
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:27,559
the installer effectively, but you still need to log in

1152
00:55:27,559 --> 00:55:30,760
with your Adobe account, and then it's Adobe's payment system,

1153
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,480
and then you're not giving us any money. You're giving.

1154
00:55:33,559 --> 00:55:37,800
It's whatever the percentage your payment processor is taking, so nothing.

1155
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,920
So you have options. You can use our installer you cannot.

1156
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:45,400
You can use our payments you cannot. We are very

1157
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,119
much our goal is to be how you get the app.

1158
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,480
Beyond that, we'll give you options, we'll let you do them.

1159
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,599
But if you don't want to use our stuff, I

1160
00:55:54,639 --> 00:55:56,599
mean more pain to you.

1161
00:55:57,159 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: That's pretty cool.

1162
00:55:58,480 --> 00:55:59,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like it.

1163
00:55:59,559 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a believer. Smoothly, Is there anything else that

1164
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,440
you want to say before we sign off?

1165
00:56:06,039 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 3: I'd say we have a discord. There is a we

1166
00:56:09,119 --> 00:56:11,400
are in the Windows App Developer discord. We have a

1167
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:14,199
channel there and we will We are very good about

1168
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:17,280
trying to answer people's questions. So something here you don't know,

1169
00:56:17,639 --> 00:56:19,960
you can reach out there, people can reach out to me.

1170
00:56:20,119 --> 00:56:23,280
We will try our best to help you and looking

1171
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:25,039
forward to having your apps very cool.

1172
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:27,800
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to deal with Microsoft having a discord.

1173
00:56:28,039 --> 00:56:32,119
That's very hipster of you. We had a slack at

1174
00:56:32,119 --> 00:56:34,079
one point. I don't think we do any more. That's

1175
00:56:34,119 --> 00:56:34,639
weird too.

1176
00:56:37,519 --> 00:56:40,039
Speaker 3: Sorry, it will have to migrate to teams right.

1177
00:56:40,079 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 4: Oh no, no, no, no, please, no more teams smoothly.

1178
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:49,880
It's been great catching up with you, and thanks for

1179
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,280
all the great information and I'm sure everybody really.

1180
00:56:52,159 --> 00:56:53,559
Speaker 1: Appreciates it, of course.

1181
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 5: All right, and we'll talk to you next time on

1182
00:56:56,000 --> 00:57:15,639
dot net frocks.

1183
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,679
Speaker 1: Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net

1184
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:24,760
and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video

1185
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:28,880
and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut,

1186
00:57:29,159 --> 00:57:33,960
and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com.

1187
00:57:34,119 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 6: Visit our website at d O T N E t

1188
00:57:36,519 --> 00:57:40,519
R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads,

1189
00:57:40,679 --> 00:57:44,360
mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going

1190
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,559
back to show number one, recorded in September two.

1191
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 1: Thousand and two, and make sure you check out our sponsors.

1192
00:57:50,599 --> 00:57:53,639
They keep us in business. Now go write some code,

1193
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:54,760
see you next time.

1194
00:57:55,800 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 3: Got vans and chime.

1195
00:58:01,519 --> 00:58:05,239
Speaker 1: God, my face is hard than my taxes.

1196
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 3: In line D