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Every 52 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:33.439 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 53 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:38.039 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 54 00:02:38.439 --> 00:02:54.000 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. Good Evening, When, if ever, 55 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:56.520 does a thought cross the line and become a crime? 56 00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:00.080 Raw Deal is the untold story of former News New 57 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:04.000 York City police officer Gil Valley, who in twenty twelve 58 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:07.919 became known throughout the world as the Cannibal Cop. It 59 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:10.759 is part of the controversial saga of a man who 60 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:13.879 is imprisoned for thought crimes, and a look into a 61 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:17.439 world of dark sexuality and violence that most readers don't 62 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:22.280 know exists, except maybe in their nightmares. After Valley's arrest, 63 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:26.080 media coverage exploded in a frenzy of lurid tabloid headlines 64 00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:30.879 and stories about the cop charged with planning the kidnap, torture, rape, 65 00:03:31.039 --> 00:03:35.280 and eat women, including his own wife. But here's the 66 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:39.319 fascinating part. There was no such plan. In reality, Valley 67 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:43.479 was simply engaging in his own private fantasies, albeit fantasies 68 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:46.280 that are born and grotesque, and for that he was 69 00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:49.599 thrown into prison. Valley faced life in prison for his 70 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:52.039 charges and served twenty one months for nothing more than 71 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:56.599 having online chats about his fantasies. Is finally exonerated of 72 00:03:56.639 --> 00:04:01.120 all charges. Raw Deal raises the question of when does 73 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:04.800 thought become a crime, a question that goes beyond his 74 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:09.080 perverse sexuality, to answers societies must deal with in order 75 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:12.400 to meet the challenge of terrorism. It will challenge the 76 00:04:12.439 --> 00:04:16.680 reader's beliefs about free speech, the right to privacy, and 77 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:20.560 government's role in watching over us. The book they're featuring 78 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:25.000 this evening is Raw Deal, The Untold story of New 79 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:31.240 York Police Departments Cannibal cop with my special guests, author 80 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:36.399 and journalists Gil Valley and Brian Whitney. Welcome to the program, gentlemen, 81 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:38.399 Gil Valley and Brian Whitney. 82 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:41.800 Thank you ver much, thanks for having us. 83 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:48.279 Thank you very much. Let's start with you, Gil, Thank 84 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:50.800 you very much for coming on to do this interview, 85 00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:53.920 and congratulations on this book. Very very very interesting. 86 00:04:55.759 --> 00:04:56.879 Let's shots. 87 00:04:57.000 --> 00:05:01.720 Tell us how we get to You're welcome. Now, tell 88 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:05.920 us how you came to get a publisher to publish 89 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:10.759 this story. This is basically a memoir. This is your story. 90 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:14.360 So tell us just a little bit about how you 91 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:17.480 came to Wild Blue Press and how they agreed to 92 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:19.160 let you write this book. 93 00:05:20.759 --> 00:05:26.720 Well, there were people interested in this story for the 94 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:30.920 longest time. I knew I had wanted to write a 95 00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:33.800 book because there was still so much misinformation out there. 96 00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:37.920 A lot of the facts out in the media were incorrect, 97 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:40.040 and I just felt I owed it to myself and 98 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:42.279 to my family and the people who's afforded me to 99 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:46.079 get the full, accurate story out there. So I hooked 100 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:49.519 up with Brian. We clicked pretty much right away, and 101 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:54.199 Wild Blue was one of the first, I think the 102 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:58.160 first publisher we actually directly contacted, and it was important 103 00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:01.040 for me to tell the story a way I wanted 104 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:03.079 it to. You know, it was my story, so I 105 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:07.839 didn't want a situation where someone would agree and then 106 00:06:07.959 --> 00:06:09.920 kind of hijack the story. I wanted it to be 107 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:12.759 done my way, and Wild Blue was very bold and 108 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:16.360 brave because there's a lot of graphic stuff in this book. 109 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:19.040 Dan and you read it, I'm sure you can agree 110 00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:19.319 with that. 111 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:22.680 Sure, So. 112 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:26.399 You know, I just have to thank them. You know, 113 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:30.399 they gave me the platform to finally for the first time, 114 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:34.319 and this has been going on now for four years, 115 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:35.759 four years out of my life, and this is the 116 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:39.079 first time the full story has been out there. So 117 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:41.319 I owe them a lot for giving me the opportunity 118 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:42.399 to tell my. 119 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:46.319 Story, certainly, and it's for those people that have seen 120 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:51.680 Cannibal Cop on Netflix, Aaron Carr's documentary, this is a 121 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:55.360 lot different, an incredibly different story that is being told 122 00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:57.920 rather than that documentary. And we'll talk about that a 123 00:06:57.959 --> 00:07:00.399 little bit later, as you do in your book. Now, 124 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:05.000 Brian uh tell us why you became interested in this 125 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:09.319 story and working on this story with Gil Valley. 126 00:07:10.439 --> 00:07:14.360 Sure, when it first came out, it was it was 127 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:17.759 just all over the news, is that this this really 128 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:21.199 scary cop was like trying to kidnap these women and 129 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:23.879 and he was going to like kidnap them, He's going 130 00:07:23.920 --> 00:07:25.839 to kill them, He's going to eat them, and so 131 00:07:25.879 --> 00:07:28.519 on and so forth. And then very quickly it became 132 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:32.439 really apparent to me, and I would think any anybody 133 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:35.480 that was really paying attention that that he hadn't done anything, 134 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:38.600 that these were just fantasies, and that that you know, 135 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:41.040 there was no real intent. So then when he was 136 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:45.560 actually convicted and and sent to prison, I actually tried 137 00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:47.519 to get in touch with Gil back then, Like I 138 00:07:47.560 --> 00:07:49.240 tried to get in touch with him through his lawyer 139 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:53.480 back then when he was when he was incarcerated, and 140 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:55.279 didn't have any luck on that, And then when he 141 00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:59.959 was exonerated, I reached out through his lawyer, the same lawyer, 142 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:02.959 and she put us in touch. So I've been wanting 143 00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:05.680 to work with him on it for critical years. 144 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:11.959 What is your background informs your decision to work on 145 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:16.240 this case? Basically on this book, I should say, but 146 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:22.360 also what does your background include you talked about the ALCU. 147 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:25.600 Yeah, I worked for the American Civil Liberties Union as 148 00:08:25.639 --> 00:08:30.720 a as a prisoner advocate. Basically it was called a 149 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:34.840 prison law coordinator position. But I've been ghostwriting co authoring 150 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:36.679 for a while. I did not ghost write this with Gil. 151 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:39.639 We definitely co authored it the whole way, but I've 152 00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:42.320 been doing some ghostwriting work. And I was also already 153 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:47.679 really interested in prisoner civil rights, and also I'm really 154 00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:52.120 interested in people being sort of judged because of having 155 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:56.080 thoughts that don't fit in with the norm, which gil 156 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:00.159 Gil certainly fits into that category. The whole thing is 157 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:01.200 really interesting to me. 158 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:06.639 Yeah, there's no denying you know that. I mean, there's 159 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:10.960 some weird, deving things. But the question isn't whether people 160 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:14.039 agree with that or if people like me for that. 161 00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:16.360 The question is did I belong in prison? And anyone 162 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:20.879 who pays attention, anyone who takes the time to read 163 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:24.879 the book, will hopefully reach that right conclusion that I 164 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:27.000 didn't you know, of course, no, I did not belong 165 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:27.440 in prison. 166 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:31.320 Now, just like any book, we are going to have 167 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:35.000 to go back in this story, as you do, to 168 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:37.080 tell us how you grew up. How you got to 169 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:41.759 the point where these fantasies were important enough that you 170 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:46.759 risk certain things in your life and you were discovered. 171 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:50.320 So let's at least find out how you grew up. 172 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:53.320 Everybody wants to know how. Again, they have an idea 173 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:56.000 of who you are and how you became that way. 174 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:59.720 But in the book, you tell us how you grew 175 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:02.279 up in Queens, New York, So tell. 176 00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:07.279 Us, Yeah, what your was like? Yeah, extremely normal childhood. 177 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:10.360 My parents separated when I was very young, that was 178 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:14.639 about the only thing that wasn't normal. But I went 179 00:10:14.679 --> 00:10:16.960 to Catholic school my whole life. I had no problems 180 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:19.799 making friends. I played baseball. I was basically the all 181 00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:25.159 American kid. When I hit puberty, I started realizing that 182 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:27.879 I was getting aroused by certain things. I would see 183 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:31.600 a TV show or a movie and I would see 184 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:34.600 scenes of a woman tied up, and that's what aroused me. 185 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:40.080 It's not something I ever volunteered to people. I didn't think. 186 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:42.600 I mean, I just didn't want to tell anyone that, 187 00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:44.919 you know, it was something I kept to myself. It 188 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:48.639 never affected me at all. I was a honor roll 189 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:51.360 student in high school, I took college courses. I was 190 00:10:51.399 --> 00:10:53.240 a deansless student in college. I mean, none of this 191 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:57.480 stuff ever affected who I was in real life. But 192 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:00.000 it was still something I wanted to keep to myself 193 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:03.279 because I was kind of afraid how people would react. 194 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:10.679 So it was really about the bondage type stuff, seeing 195 00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:15.799 a woman tied up and helpless. When I discovered pornography 196 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:20.879 in my fifteen sixteen years old, I tended to gravitate 197 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:25.200 toward websites that cater to that stuff. Women tied up, 198 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:29.679 and I discovered one of these cannibal porn websites to college, 199 00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:31.399 and the whole story is told in the books, so 200 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:33.519 I don't want to get into too much detail there, 201 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:39.679 but and you know, from there, I discovered the dark 202 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:41.799 the website, the Dark Side of network. It was a 203 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:46.039 social network with people with similar fantasies could chat and 204 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:52.559 role play about similar things. So that's the cliff notes version. 205 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:56.159 Before we get to all that. Though you talk about 206 00:11:56.200 --> 00:12:00.799 this normal upbringing you normal, you talk about having you 207 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:04.799 what would you call it fixed in terms of just 208 00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:09.080 like a gay person doesn't choose these images, the things 209 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:12.039 that you fantasized about and the things that turned you 210 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:15.799 on initially, like I say, watching television programs that you 211 00:12:15.879 --> 00:12:18.600 had this idea of the bondage, and so you gravitate 212 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:22.799 towards that. But in your real life because this again, 213 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:25.039 this is something you kept secret. This is not something 214 00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:28.480 you shared with anyone, especially in the beginning. What was 215 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:32.120 your real life dating life. Like you talk about college, 216 00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:34.919 you talk about high school, you talk about how shy 217 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.919 you were, So tell our audience who you really were. 218 00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:42.360 And in real life how sexual were you? 219 00:12:44.679 --> 00:12:47.960 Not very sexual? I never had problems making friends. I 220 00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:52.759 had friends, male friends and female friends. If I liked 221 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:54.519 the girl, I tend to get to get a little 222 00:12:54.559 --> 00:12:56.519 shy and I would clam up a bit. I didn't 223 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:59.399 have sex until I was twenty five. There was nothing 224 00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:04.279 that really preoccupied me that much. I wasn't overly concerned 225 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:05.919 and oh my god, I have to have sex before 226 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:08.480 I graduate from college. It just never you know. I 227 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:12.600 was very focused on school and you know, doing well 228 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:16.440 and just setting myself up to succeed in life. But 229 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:23.600 I had very normal relationships. After all this happened, after 230 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:26.000 I was arrested, you know, law enforcement went back to 231 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:30.159 basically every woman I ever crossed paths with and in 232 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:33.480 my life, it was ridiculous, and ninety nine percent of 233 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:35.559 them had nothing but good things to say about me. 234 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:35.759 You know. 235 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:38.159 Yeah, Gill was a normal guy. I never felt threatened 236 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:40.159 by him. We were friends, We hung out all the time, 237 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:47.399 and that's what That's who I really was, just a regular, unassuming, 238 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:48.000 nice guy. 239 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:53.720 How do you become interested you're in college. How do 240 00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:57.360 you become interested because you think going to college thinking 241 00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:01.120 about law enforcement? How is it that you get influenced 242 00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:05.399 to consider law enforcement and take us from there? Once 243 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:07.000 you do have this interest. 244 00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:14.559 Sure, I declared psychology early on as a major. After 245 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:19.039 sophomore year, I had an internship in Manhattan in an 246 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:22.360 office building. Regular nine to five office job paid pretty 247 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:25.000 well for a you know, a twenty year old. But 248 00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:28.159 the one thing I took from there is that there's 249 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:30.679 no way in hell I wanted to be in an 250 00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:32.799 office or sit behind a computer screen for the rest 251 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:35.600 of my life. So when I went back to college, 252 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:38.679 I doubled up on criminal justice and I started taking 253 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:43.960 some classes where I had police officers and retired captains 254 00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:46.240 Down in Maryland. I went to the University of Maryland, 255 00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:51.399 so they made law enforcement sound very interesting, and I 256 00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:55.120 started to look at the NLPD, and the benefits they 257 00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:58.600 offered were outstanding, you know, the whole thing. And I 258 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:01.879 wanted a career where I could kind of do something 259 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:04.279 new every day. I could be outdoors and I could 260 00:15:04.360 --> 00:15:07.039 help people for a living. That's what really drew me 261 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:10.600 to become a police officer. And I loved it, you know, 262 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:14.200 for the most part. Six years. I passed the sergeant exam. 263 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:17.200 There were things, of course, I didn't like, but that's 264 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:20.519 any job. I do miss it. I wish I had 265 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:25.480 my old life back. But that ship, unfortunately has sailed, 266 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:26.360 and here we are. 267 00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:31.039 You can say you enjoyed being a cop. You were 268 00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:33.279 a good cop, you were in you were a cop 269 00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:37.000 for the right reasons, and you didn't take advantage of 270 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:38.200 being a cop you were. 271 00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:45.039 And yeah, six years. I never had one civilian complaint 272 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:49.200 on my record. I never had any disciplinary problems. As 273 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:54.000 I said, I passed a sarganst exam on the first attempt. 274 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:58.200 I had a very good and rewarding six years. And 275 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:00.840 it's something that no one can take for me. I know, 276 00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:04.279 I was a good cop. I was well respected by 277 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:07.919 my peers, by my supervisors, and by the community. So 278 00:16:09.559 --> 00:16:11.120 you know, like I said, there are things I miss. 279 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:14.039 I missed that career of helping people, you know, for 280 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:20.600 a living. There's no greater calling, I think, you know, 281 00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:22.879 but that said something I don't think I can ever 282 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:24.159 do again, unfortunately. 283 00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:29.879 Now you also talk about relationships that you had were 284 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:35.240 long standing relationships that never really evolved into romantic relationships, 285 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:39.720 like Melanie and k from Maryland. So tell us first 286 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:46.120 about Melanie and basically what really it entailed the relationship, 287 00:16:46.759 --> 00:16:50.799 What did you would have liked in real life? And 288 00:16:50.840 --> 00:16:53.919 then what was your fantasy at that time, so that 289 00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:56.799 we can understand a little bit of your thought process 290 00:16:57.720 --> 00:16:58.360 in real life. 291 00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:02.799 And the fact Melanie's not her real name. There are 292 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:06.319 some names I changed in the book. I just didn't 293 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:10.880 feel like it was appropriate to bring these women back 294 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:13.279 into the whole thing again. You know, they did nothing wrong, 295 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:14.640 they didn't want to be involved in any of this, 296 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:18.519 so I decided to change their name. So well, you know, 297 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:20.839 we'll stick with Melanie. But she was the first girl 298 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:23.279 I fell in love with, and everyone remembers the first 299 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:25.440 person they fall in love with. I was sixteen years old, 300 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:27.079 and I just I had it bad for her. You know, 301 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:30.359 she like she could do no wrong. We would hang 302 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:32.160 out and she was frustrating, you know, we had a 303 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:35.319 tumultuous back and forth. We would have an argument and 304 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:38.039 we'd moved up again. And this was like eight nine 305 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:42.759 years where nothing ever, nothing ever happened. You know, the 306 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:45.599 more mature me would move on like right away. But 307 00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:49.599 I don't know, It's just always it was one of 308 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:52.559 those things, you know, where I always held out hope, 309 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:57.920 but it never happened. And the fantasies I was having 310 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:05.559 were the same fantasies A bondage, domination and all that 311 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:07.799 kind of stuff, and I and I centered them around 312 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:11.240 women that I knew in my life. That's where although 313 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:14.880 my fantasies are unusual and abnormal and deviate, the fact 314 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:17.319 that I centered them around women that I knew is 315 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:20.039 not unusual at all. I think when people have fantasies, 316 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:24.240 they they center them around people they know when they realize. 317 00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:32.319 I don't think there's anything abnormal about that aspect, you know, right. 318 00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:35.599 So you again, you as you talk about you have 319 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:41.240 these normal relationships. They're platonic. Uh, they're you're close friends, 320 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:45.799 mind you, and but you have a fantasy life that 321 00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:50.039 is can we say fair, it is evolving. You are 322 00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:54.039 now interested in some websites. We talk about Mookie's Kitchens. 323 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:59.720 So just when is it that you again add cannibalism 324 00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:04.039 to part of your fantasy. 325 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:08.720 It was I think by sophomore year college. I was 326 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:12.799 about twenty years old and I discovered that website, and 327 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:17.359 it was it was more about the idea of a 328 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:21.839 woman being tied up and like in preparation to be cooked. 329 00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:26.759 My fantasy's never got to the part where you know, 330 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:29.240 it was actually carving and it like the all the 331 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:32.119 bloody stuff. It never got that far. It was more 332 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:36.400 about the bonded stuff. And I liked the scenario where 333 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:41.079 she'd be, you know, helpless and like that would be 334 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:46.920 the peak of it. Yeah, part of this is pretty 335 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:50.400 I mean, it's still like it's one thing to write 336 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:52.880 it in a book and to write about it in 337 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:56.920 an email. It's still pretty difficult to talk about it, 338 00:19:57.039 --> 00:19:58.759 even on the phone, you know what I mean. It's 339 00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:02.279 it's it's something I'll never get used to again. I 340 00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:04.079 didn't want any of this stuff out there. That this 341 00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:06.759 is out there, not by my choice, but it's out there. 342 00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:08.160 I wrote a book, so I know I have to 343 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:10.039 talk about it. But that doesn't mean that it's that 344 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:11.799 it's easy. 345 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:14.200 No, I was just going to say quickly. I mean, 346 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:16.720 this to me is one of the most interesting aspects 347 00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:20.759 of the of the whole scenario because because so many 348 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:25.480 different people have very odd fantasies. Some of them are 349 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:27.440 some of them are dark, some of them are scary, 350 00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:29.559 some of them are really silly. I mean, there's so 351 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:34.079 many different paraphilias and fetishes that that people have. But 352 00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:35.920 I mean, Gill is the only person I can think 353 00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:41.799 of that was actually you know, incarcerated for thinking these 354 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:44.279 types of things. So I think even him trying to 355 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:48.960 explain the explain the type of things that he was into. 356 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:51.680 It's it's if we were all forced to explain the 357 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:53.400 types of things that we were really into, I think 358 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:55.279 would all be most of us are a lot of 359 00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:57.680 us that we might be a little bit uncomfortable. 360 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:04.240 Explain that way. I can, Yeah, I have, I can 361 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:07.279 relate to that. Yes, you're you're absolutely right. So maybe 362 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.160 we'll what I just wanted to tell what I wanted 363 00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:12.359 to go ahead, Sorry. 364 00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:14.640 No, I was just gonna just take you back all that. 365 00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:17.039 This isn't three guys, you know, grabbing a beer. This 366 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:19.000 is this is a show, and you know people are 367 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:23.079 listening to those people I don't know, and it's just anyway, 368 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:26.319 the points made. It's tough to talk about. So let's uh, 369 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:28.839 let's keep it moving now. 370 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:31.480 The other part of this is that you like very 371 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:34.720 much like a Penthouse Forum. You know, if you could 372 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:38.039 believe every one of those letters into the editor on 373 00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:41.799 Penhouse Forum, very much of this. You had an interest 374 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:46.240 in the writing, and you're a good writer, obviously from 375 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.079 this book, but also that you write in this book 376 00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:52.480 that you were creative and you were half of this 377 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:55.880 or a good portion of this is the storytelling aspect, 378 00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:58.480 So maybe you can tell us about the websites you 379 00:21:58.599 --> 00:22:04.200 gravitated towards and really what happened in terms of finding 380 00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:08.160 people that you've chatted with and were more interested in, 381 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:11.480 say the regular people that were on this, say forum 382 00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:14.279 or site. 383 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:18.920 Well, the website Dark Fetish Network it was. It kind 384 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:21.720 of builds itself as a Facebook for people, like a 385 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:26.079 social network for people with unusual fetishes, and it's more 386 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:30.960 about communication people talking about the things they're into. And 387 00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:34.160 then you find they divide those site into groups, so 388 00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:38.039 you get into who's more into bondage and domination. You 389 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:41.680 see the members who are you know, into that stuff. 390 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:50.359 And you know, some people wrote better than others. So 391 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:54.839 I would chat and communicate with people who, like me, 392 00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:59.240 were decent storytellers and you know, not to brag about 393 00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:01.839 my writing skills, but I got the FBI to believe 394 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:05.359 that I was a real kidnapper. You know, I was 395 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:08.920 gonna really kidnap three you know, women on different continents 396 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:11.279 on the same day. I mean, the FBI actually believed 397 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:15.440 in that, As ridiculous as that sounds, but yeah, so 398 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:19.880 I enjoyed the scenes. They were collaborative role plays, They 399 00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:25.640 were fictional stories, but they were detailed. They sounded detailed, 400 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:28.359 they sounded very graphic, and the whole idea it's like, 401 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:31.359