WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.640
<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI

2
00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:07.240
<v Speaker 1>AM six forty, live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. Well,

3
00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:10.199
<v Speaker 1>my next guest is someone I am very excited to

4
00:00:10.199 --> 00:00:12.439
<v Speaker 1>have on the show. He's the author of the best

5
00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:17.440
<v Speaker 1>selling book The All Are Nothing Marriage, How the Best

6
00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:20.280
<v Speaker 1>Marriages Work. Now, He's not just some dating coach sitting

7
00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:24.079
<v Speaker 1>on TikTok. He's a professor at Northwestern University and also

8
00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:30.320
<v Speaker 1>Kellogg's School of Management. He studies romantic relationships and American politics. Whoop,

9
00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:34.960
<v Speaker 1>that's a collision, and The Economist once declared him one

10
00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:38.840
<v Speaker 1>of the leading lights in the realm of relationship psychology.

11
00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:42.079
<v Speaker 1>Doctor Eli Finkel, thanks so much for joining the Doctor

12
00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:42.880
<v Speaker 1>Wendy Wall Show.

13
00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:45.799
<v Speaker 2>I'm happy to be here, Thanks for having me, and.

14
00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:49.560
<v Speaker 1>I am excited to hear about your take on marriage.

15
00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:51.520
<v Speaker 3>Before we get into.

16
00:00:51.359 --> 00:00:54.240
<v Speaker 1>What I like to call news, you can use tips

17
00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:57.159
<v Speaker 1>for people and love hacks. Can we talk a little

18
00:00:57.240 --> 00:01:00.960
<v Speaker 1>bit about the whole idea of marriage. Some people think

19
00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:05.040
<v Speaker 1>that marriage is becoming extinct. Can we remind people the

20
00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:08.959
<v Speaker 1>history of marriage and what its cultural reason for being

21
00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:09.959
<v Speaker 1>even is.

22
00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:13.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I love the question. Most of us, right, we

23
00:01:13.959 --> 00:01:18.239
<v Speaker 2>live in one particular historical and cultural moment, and we

24
00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:21.359
<v Speaker 2>think that marriage just is that that's what it always was.

25
00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:24.760
<v Speaker 2>But of course marriage is a social institution. It changes

26
00:01:24.799 --> 00:01:28.280
<v Speaker 2>over time. And one of the things that I learned

27
00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:32.200
<v Speaker 2>a lot from doing is tracking how marriage has changed

28
00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:36.439
<v Speaker 2>over time, the expectations that we bring. And it turns

29
00:01:36.439 --> 00:01:39.239
<v Speaker 2>out that we are in an era where we have

30
00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:42.239
<v Speaker 2>changed the institution of marriage in a way that makes

31
00:01:42.280 --> 00:01:45.519
<v Speaker 2>it more fragile but also makes the best marriages better

32
00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:48.519
<v Speaker 2>than the best marriages of earlier eras, right.

33
00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:51.239
<v Speaker 1>And I actually have one of those great marriages. Now

34
00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:54.079
<v Speaker 1>I just got married and obvious, so I'll let you

35
00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:58.280
<v Speaker 1>know in five years. But let's go back into history.

36
00:01:58.680 --> 00:02:02.000
<v Speaker 1>So let's go back to way back. So in our

37
00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:05.400
<v Speaker 1>anthropological past, obviously marriage didn't exist.

38
00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:07.359
<v Speaker 3>But what was you think the advent?

39
00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:10.719
<v Speaker 1>Do you think it was when we moved into agriculture

40
00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:14.719
<v Speaker 1>or when did this whole concept of one heterosexual male,

41
00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:18.680
<v Speaker 1>one heterosexual female to gather in one abode, helping offspring

42
00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:19.800
<v Speaker 1>that came from both of them.

43
00:02:19.879 --> 00:02:24.479
<v Speaker 2>Only, well, there's been you know, it has formed in

44
00:02:24.520 --> 00:02:26.879
<v Speaker 2>all sorts of cultural contexts, in all sorts of ways,

45
00:02:26.919 --> 00:02:29.759
<v Speaker 2>with all sorts of structures. The thing that I found

46
00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:33.319
<v Speaker 2>especially useful to do was to unpack how it was

47
00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:37.599
<v Speaker 2>structured when you know, Europeans first started colonizing this land

48
00:02:37.719 --> 00:02:40.199
<v Speaker 2>and then track it up until the present day. And

49
00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:43.479
<v Speaker 2>if you look at that first era, it was an

50
00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:47.439
<v Speaker 2>agricultural era, and the way we think about marriage today

51
00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:50.840
<v Speaker 2>just would not make much sense. People of course, preferred

52
00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:53.080
<v Speaker 2>to love their spouse, and if the sex was good,

53
00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:56.800
<v Speaker 2>that was even better. But people didn't say things like,

54
00:02:56.879 --> 00:03:01.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, gosh, Jeff is a good man, and yet

55
00:03:01.319 --> 00:03:04.319
<v Speaker 2>I don't feel the pitter patter when I, you know,

56
00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:06.719
<v Speaker 2>when we kiss, and therefore I'm not going to marry him.

57
00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:10.199
<v Speaker 2>Because marriage was too important. It was literally about things

58
00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:14.000
<v Speaker 2>like food, clothing, and shelter and these more psychological sorts

59
00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:16.680
<v Speaker 2>of needs. People just couldn't really prioritize them back in

60
00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:17.039
<v Speaker 2>that era.

61
00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:21.879
<v Speaker 1>You know, I remember one time touring a former plantation

62
00:03:22.280 --> 00:03:26.159
<v Speaker 1>down in the south in Louisiana, and I found it

63
00:03:26.240 --> 00:03:30.840
<v Speaker 1>really interesting. Forget about the tragic parts of history. But

64
00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:33.319
<v Speaker 1>one of the things they had in the ladies bedroom

65
00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:36.639
<v Speaker 1>was a glass case that had letters that she had

66
00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:39.800
<v Speaker 1>written to her sister, who was a wife on another

67
00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:43.960
<v Speaker 1>plantation down the way. And they really looked like quite

68
00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:46.479
<v Speaker 1>love letters. And when I asked the tour guide about this,

69
00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:50.800
<v Speaker 1>she said, well, often Irish and English girls were sent

70
00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:53.960
<v Speaker 1>over to the New World to be wise of the

71
00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:58.479
<v Speaker 1>plantation owners, and their closest relationship was often with their sibling.

72
00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:02.120
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't any form of romantic marriage. And yet she

73
00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:04.639
<v Speaker 1>talks about, you know, my dear sister, you are in

74
00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:06.919
<v Speaker 1>my heart at all times. I love you, I can't

75
00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:09.080
<v Speaker 1>wait and see you. It was a love letter to

76
00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:12.800
<v Speaker 1>her because that was really her secure attachment more than

77
00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:13.280
<v Speaker 1>her husband.

78
00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:17.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's also you know, heartbreaking in

79
00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:20.240
<v Speaker 2>its own way, but it is true that again we

80
00:04:20.360 --> 00:04:24.240
<v Speaker 2>stand up in front of our loved ones and you know,

81
00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:27.800
<v Speaker 2>a minister of the faith and say I want to

82
00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:30.480
<v Speaker 2>marry you because you're my best friend or you complete me.

83
00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:33.759
<v Speaker 2>And that just isn't what it used to be about.

84
00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:34.079
<v Speaker 1>Right.

85
00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:37.839
<v Speaker 2>That's why it wasn't crazy for people back in an

86
00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:40.639
<v Speaker 2>earlier era to marry people they had never met, or

87
00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:43.720
<v Speaker 2>have families sort of set up the whole arrangement for us,

88
00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:47.040
<v Speaker 2>because it wasn't primarily about the individual fulfillment of the spouses.

89
00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:50.519
<v Speaker 2>And that's really changed. I mean, it started changing in

90
00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:53.800
<v Speaker 2>a widespread way around the middle of the eighteen hundreds

91
00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:56.720
<v Speaker 2>when we had industrialization and then a bunch of young

92
00:04:56.759 --> 00:05:00.639
<v Speaker 2>people for the first time ever anywhere where graphically and

93
00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:03.519
<v Speaker 2>economically independent of their parents. And it was then that

94
00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:06.120
<v Speaker 2>they started to think, well, I would like to marry

95
00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:09.680
<v Speaker 2>based on my own personal fulfillment. And we've continued to

96
00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:12.040
<v Speaker 2>see that trend up until the present day. And like

97
00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:13.959
<v Speaker 2>I said, I don't want to sound like I'm judging

98
00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:16.560
<v Speaker 2>or castigating people. I'm delighted that I live in this

99
00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:21.000
<v Speaker 2>era of marriage, and you know, it is more fragile

100
00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:23.680
<v Speaker 2>because there are marriages that would have been totally sufficient

101
00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:26.639
<v Speaker 2>for our grandparents, and today we say no, not for

102
00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:29.639
<v Speaker 2>the expectations I'm bringing, not for the things I'm looking

103
00:05:29.639 --> 00:05:32.040
<v Speaker 2>to get from the marriage. But what we forget is

104
00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:36.000
<v Speaker 2>along with those expectations comes something positive, which is we're

105
00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:41.040
<v Speaker 2>seeking a deeper emotional, spiritual, psychological sort of connection than

106
00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:44.079
<v Speaker 2>people were seeking, say a few hundred years ago, but

107
00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:46.839
<v Speaker 2>even fifty or seventy five years ago, and some of

108
00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:49.120
<v Speaker 2>us are sticking the landing on that. And it's pretty

109
00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:50.480
<v Speaker 2>great when we're able to do that.

110
00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:53.519
<v Speaker 1>When it does happen. Now, your book is called the

111
00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:57.480
<v Speaker 1>all or nothing marriage. Does that allude to the fact

112
00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:02.800
<v Speaker 1>that today people want not just a you know, protector, provider, caregiver,

113
00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:06.959
<v Speaker 1>a survival marriage, but they also want a best friend,

114
00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:10.160
<v Speaker 1>They want intellectual stimulation, they want emotional support. Is this

115
00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:13.399
<v Speaker 1>the part of the all that we want in our marriage?

116
00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:17.759
<v Speaker 2>Yes? And really the all or nothing marriage is. What

117
00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:20.839
<v Speaker 2>has happened as a result of those changing expectations is

118
00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:24.040
<v Speaker 2>that the average marriage, at least in the US, if

119
00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:26.519
<v Speaker 2>you track this stuff over time, the average marriage has

120
00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:29.879
<v Speaker 2>gotten worse. You know, divorce rates are much higher than

121
00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:31.680
<v Speaker 2>they were one hundred years ago or three hundred years

122
00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:35.600
<v Speaker 2>ago and so forth. And our level of satisfaction, even

123
00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:37.680
<v Speaker 2>in those marriages that make it is a little lower

124
00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:39.040
<v Speaker 2>on average, but there is a.

125
00:06:39.000 --> 00:06:41.759
<v Speaker 1>Substantial minoritations are so high.

126
00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:44.560
<v Speaker 2>That's right, that's right, because we end up disappointed with

127
00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:47.560
<v Speaker 2>the things aren't The marriage isn't delivering everything we'd ask.

128
00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:50.360
<v Speaker 2>But again, some of them are pretty good. And so

129
00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:53.160
<v Speaker 2>when I say the all or nothing marriage, I'm referring

130
00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:56.480
<v Speaker 2>to this current era where the average marriage is worse

131
00:06:56.519 --> 00:06:58.639
<v Speaker 2>than before, but the best marriages are better than ever.

132
00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:02.480
<v Speaker 1>You know, I had a friend, I have a friend,

133
00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:04.959
<v Speaker 1>and she was in a terrible marriage for years, and

134
00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:06.360
<v Speaker 1>I always you say, you gotta leave them, you got

135
00:07:06.439 --> 00:07:08.759
<v Speaker 1>to leave them, And she said, you know, you just

136
00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:10.680
<v Speaker 1>like things to be better than I need them to be.

137
00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:14.000
<v Speaker 1>Like it was struck from the outside. I was like,

138
00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:15.639
<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't put up with it even for all that

139
00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:16.720
<v Speaker 1>money he's thrown in there.

140
00:07:16.759 --> 00:07:17.879
<v Speaker 3>But she was happy with the money.

141
00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:22.839
<v Speaker 2>Wichard. You know what's fascinating about that is I think

142
00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:24.959
<v Speaker 2>that that the two of you have you've just described

143
00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:29.720
<v Speaker 2>your temperaments, you are more likely to have a truly

144
00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:32.920
<v Speaker 2>extraordinary connection because of how demanding you are, what your

145
00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:36.319
<v Speaker 2>expectations are. But at the same time, you're more likely

146
00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:38.879
<v Speaker 2>to be disappointed in a marriage that's like kind of

147
00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:42.519
<v Speaker 2>okay and like pretty good. But she's she's doing just

148
00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:45.040
<v Speaker 2>fine with that marriage. And for you it wouldn't work,

149
00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:46.319
<v Speaker 2>but for her it works just fine.

150
00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:47.959
<v Speaker 3>It works just fine. Exactly.

151
00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:49.839
<v Speaker 1>Listen, when we come back, we have to go to

152
00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:51.480
<v Speaker 1>a break. I want to talk about some of your

153
00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:54.959
<v Speaker 1>must try love hacks from your book, and also I'm

154
00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:56.319
<v Speaker 1>going to ask you if you tried any of these

155
00:07:56.319 --> 00:07:59.600
<v Speaker 1>hacks with your wife. My guest doctor Eli Finkel, author

156
00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:03.680
<v Speaker 1>of The All or Nothing Marriage, how the best marriages work.

157
00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:07.519
<v Speaker 1>And also, I forgot to say, co host of one

158
00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:13.680
<v Speaker 1>of my favorite podcasts, Love Factually, Love Fact Doctor, Eli,

159
00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:17.680
<v Speaker 1>how did you come up with this idea for a podcast? Oh?

160
00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:20.839
<v Speaker 2>So this is a podcast I'm doing with Paul Eastwick.

161
00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:22.600
<v Speaker 2>I think he's been a guest on your show recently

162
00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:26.199
<v Speaker 2>as well. He and I are both relationships researchers, and

163
00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:30.519
<v Speaker 2>we came to this sort of disconcerting realization that, you know,

164
00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:33.639
<v Speaker 2>there are literally hundreds of people who devote their careers

165
00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:36.919
<v Speaker 2>to trying to use the methods of science that is,

166
00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:41.559
<v Speaker 2>developing hypotheses and collecting data and evaluating the evidence with

167
00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:45.399
<v Speaker 2>regard to what makes relationships good or bad, and most

168
00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:50.039
<v Speaker 2>of those findings are cloistered in like academic libraries. And

169
00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:52.519
<v Speaker 2>so we had this idea that, like, what if we

170
00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:55.720
<v Speaker 2>could get those insights, the best scientific insights, out to

171
00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:58.159
<v Speaker 2>the public in a way that was just really fun

172
00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:01.039
<v Speaker 2>for everybody. And so what we decided to do is

173
00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:04.919
<v Speaker 2>is do that through the realm, or through the mechanism

174
00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:08.399
<v Speaker 2>of movies. Popular romance movies like When Harry Met Sally,

175
00:09:08.519 --> 00:09:11.360
<v Speaker 2>or La La Land or you know whatever else Jerry Maguire.

176
00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:16.120
<v Speaker 2>These movies inject into the culture ideas about how relationships work. Well,

177
00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:17.679
<v Speaker 2>we have the data.

178
00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:20.840
<v Speaker 3>To wrong ideas, by the way, Yeah.

179
00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:23.399
<v Speaker 2>That's right, that's totally right. But one thing it's been satisfying.

180
00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:26.120
<v Speaker 2>Each episode is about a particular movie, and one thing

181
00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:28.320
<v Speaker 2>that we force ourselves to do in each episode to say, like,

182
00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:29.879
<v Speaker 2>what does the movie get right and what does the

183
00:09:29.879 --> 00:09:32.799
<v Speaker 2>movie get wrong? And it is it is definitely a

184
00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:37.000
<v Speaker 2>mixed bag. It's our opportunity to you know, fact check Hollywood,

185
00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:39.919
<v Speaker 2>and sometimes they do get it right also, so it's

186
00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:41.720
<v Speaker 2>been fun to try to take a sober lens to

187
00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:42.240
<v Speaker 2>those things.

188
00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:44.240
<v Speaker 1>Well, one of the things that I've always said about

189
00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:46.639
<v Speaker 1>romantic comedies is that they end at the beginning.

190
00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:48.360
<v Speaker 3>They end at the beginning of it really well.

191
00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:51.600
<v Speaker 2>You're right, you are absolutely right. It's like, well, we

192
00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:53.559
<v Speaker 2>worked through that, we had the meat too, and then

193
00:09:53.559 --> 00:09:56.080
<v Speaker 2>we had the conflict, and then we like realized it

194
00:09:56.120 --> 00:09:58.039
<v Speaker 2>was all okay, and we fell in love, and then

195
00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:00.399
<v Speaker 2>the movie ends, right, well, there is the next sixty

196
00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:01.279
<v Speaker 2>years and.

197
00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:02.360
<v Speaker 3>Now the work comes.

198
00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:03.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly.

199
00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:07.200
<v Speaker 1>Well, anyway to everybody, if you're listening, Love Factually is

200
00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:10.960
<v Speaker 1>available on the iHeartRadio app as well. Okay, let's get

201
00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:13.600
<v Speaker 1>back to the all or nothing marriage, how the best

202
00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:17.559
<v Speaker 1>marriages work? What are some of your must try love

203
00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:18.720
<v Speaker 1>hacks for all of us?

204
00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:19.759
<v Speaker 3>And I'm taking notes here.

205
00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:24.519
<v Speaker 2>Well, the idea of the love hack is, you know,

206
00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:28.039
<v Speaker 2>you get people like me to, you know, talk on

207
00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:31.000
<v Speaker 2>shows about how to make relationships good, and mostly it's

208
00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:33.799
<v Speaker 2>conversations about a lot of work. Right. It's like, here

209
00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:36.159
<v Speaker 2>are the ways that you can invest, and here's how

210
00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:38.600
<v Speaker 2>to have a more active sex life to work at it,

211
00:10:38.639 --> 00:10:40.600
<v Speaker 2>and here are the communication things you need to do,

212
00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:42.639
<v Speaker 2>and it's going to be hard, and all those things

213
00:10:42.679 --> 00:10:43.080
<v Speaker 2>are good.

214
00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:43.279
<v Speaker 1>Right.

215
00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:45.399
<v Speaker 2>In the book and the All and Nothing Marriage, I

216
00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:48.159
<v Speaker 2>talk about those things, but I also spend the chapter

217
00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:51.240
<v Speaker 2>basically saying, are there any quick and dirty things we

218
00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:53.200
<v Speaker 2>can do? Not the things that are going to make

219
00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:55.320
<v Speaker 2>a bad marriage a good marriage. You need to work

220
00:10:55.320 --> 00:10:57.200
<v Speaker 2>hard to do that. But are the things that we

221
00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:00.000
<v Speaker 2>can do to make things just a little bit better

222
00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:02.840
<v Speaker 2>regardless of how good the marriage is. And yeah, there's

223
00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:05.279
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of sort of quick and easy things we

224
00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:08.960
<v Speaker 2>can do. One of my favorites, I've actually called it

225
00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:12.480
<v Speaker 2>the marriage hack. Right. It's trying to think about conflict

226
00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:16.200
<v Speaker 2>in our relationship, not through our regular vantage point, not

227
00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:18.840
<v Speaker 2>through our own two eyes, but from the perspective of

228
00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:22.240
<v Speaker 2>a neutral third party who wants the best for everybody.

229
00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:26.039
<v Speaker 1>And we ran a we ran a candid camera in

230
00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:26.480
<v Speaker 1>the room.

231
00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:30.279
<v Speaker 2>That's exactly right, a fly on the wall or something. Yeah,

232
00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:33.000
<v Speaker 2>it's a more friendly than candid camera perhaps, But we

233
00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:36.480
<v Speaker 2>ran a study where we randomly assigned couples to do this,

234
00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:39.159
<v Speaker 2>and then we tracked them versus a control condition of

235
00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:42.480
<v Speaker 2>couples who didn't get this advice, and we found that

236
00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:45.679
<v Speaker 2>their marriage was literally better over time. And all they

237
00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:47.639
<v Speaker 2>had done throughout the course of the study is they'd

238
00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:49.559
<v Speaker 2>written for twenty one minutes over the course of the

239
00:11:49.639 --> 00:11:53.399
<v Speaker 2>year trying to think about conflict in their relationship from

240
00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:56.039
<v Speaker 2>this neutral third party perspective. And so that's one of

241
00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:57.799
<v Speaker 2>those quick and dirty things we can do to make

242
00:11:57.840 --> 00:12:00.000
<v Speaker 2>ourselves a little bit happier in our marriage.

243
00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:03.360
<v Speaker 1>Just imagine you're watching it going on and taking both

244
00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:05.080
<v Speaker 1>people's sides, like, oh, come on, you.

245
00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:10.240
<v Speaker 2>Guys, that's exactly right. It's just like a reorientation. A

246
00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:14.200
<v Speaker 2>reorientation sometimes people call it self distancing, because from our

247
00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:17.559
<v Speaker 2>own perspective, it's really easy to understand why everything we

248
00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:19.960
<v Speaker 2>did was reasonable and why the other person is being

249
00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:22.679
<v Speaker 2>totally outrageous. It turns out you just force yourself to

250
00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:24.279
<v Speaker 2>be like, well, what would this look like if I

251
00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:26.399
<v Speaker 2>were watching the two of us right now? Would I

252
00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:28.360
<v Speaker 2>be able to see his perspective a little bit better?

253
00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:30.480
<v Speaker 2>Would I be able to understand maybe I'm being a

254
00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:33.519
<v Speaker 2>little hypocritical? We can do that if we try, and

255
00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:34.519
<v Speaker 2>it's not much work.

256
00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:36.679
<v Speaker 1>Can I ask you about gratitude?

257
00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:37.600
<v Speaker 3>Is it a love hack?

258
00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:40.960
<v Speaker 2>I think it is. Yes. So there's lots of different

259
00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:43.480
<v Speaker 2>ways you could go about this, but the love hack

260
00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:49.320
<v Speaker 2>version of gratitude is simply reminding ourselves of the nice

261
00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:53.159
<v Speaker 2>things that our partner has done for us. And one

262
00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:56.120
<v Speaker 2>place that I like to start to think about gratitude again.

263
00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:58.879
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what everybody's sort of worldview is or

264
00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:01.840
<v Speaker 2>religious background, but the best that the scientists can tell

265
00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:05.440
<v Speaker 2>us is that the universe started thirteen point eight billion

266
00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:07.639
<v Speaker 2>years ago, the Earth started around four and a half

267
00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:10.600
<v Speaker 2>or five billion years ago, and we emerged from that

268
00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:14.039
<v Speaker 2>and we are literally stardust. When I say literally, I

269
00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:15.960
<v Speaker 2>mean the best the scientists can tell us is that

270
00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:19.480
<v Speaker 2>we emerge from some big cosmic explosion and from that

271
00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:23.399
<v Speaker 2>point of view, the amount of grievance that we allow

272
00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:25.960
<v Speaker 2>ourselves to feel that we indulge in seems to be

273
00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:31.039
<v Speaker 2>a little excessive. Can we remember that, yes, there are

274
00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:34.759
<v Speaker 2>ways that our partner wasn't perfect, absolutely, but there are

275
00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:37.840
<v Speaker 2>certainly nice things that our partner is doing as well,

276
00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:40.600
<v Speaker 2>and we can make ourselves and our partner happier if

277
00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:43.960
<v Speaker 2>we lean in on those gratitude sorts of feelings.

278
00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:45.279
<v Speaker 3>So I'm going to tell you a story.

279
00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:48.159
<v Speaker 1>So one of the things my husband does is he

280
00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:51.360
<v Speaker 1>leaves drawers open an inch or two in a halfhaszard

281
00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:54.360
<v Speaker 1>way as well as closet doors crack. And one day

282
00:13:54.399 --> 00:13:57.879
<v Speaker 1>it occurred to me that this was my problem, not his,

283
00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:01.639
<v Speaker 1>that it's not his job to make me happy. If

284
00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:05.399
<v Speaker 1>I need an organized environment, that is my issue, not his.

285
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:08.360
<v Speaker 1>And so I decided to reframe it and turn it

286
00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:11.240
<v Speaker 1>into a little workout. Sometimes I do squats as I'm

287
00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:13.799
<v Speaker 1>closing his drawers, and doing it with any so that

288
00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:16.120
<v Speaker 1>I'm getting some benefit. I try to get into weird

289
00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:19.879
<v Speaker 1>contorted body positions as I close ers, so that least

290
00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:22.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm getting work out. But also every time I close

291
00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:24.360
<v Speaker 1>a drawer, I say I love you, Julio I.

292
00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:25.000
<v Speaker 3>Love you, Hula.

293
00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:26.240
<v Speaker 2>How nice is that?

294
00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:27.840
<v Speaker 3>Just to remind my brain?

295
00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:32.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because you just as easily could have said what

296
00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:35.080
<v Speaker 2>a jerk. How easy would it be for him to

297
00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:37.399
<v Speaker 2>have closed this? I've asked him thirty times. He knows

298
00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:39.840
<v Speaker 2>it's important to me. You would have been totally within

299
00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:42.080
<v Speaker 2>your rights. It would have been a reasonable way to respond,

300
00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:44.440
<v Speaker 2>and yet you chose this other way to respond, and

301
00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:45.559
<v Speaker 2>both of you are much happier.

302
00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:47.720
<v Speaker 1>Yes, of course now he leaves things open more often

303
00:14:47.720 --> 00:14:48.519
<v Speaker 1>because he likes to hear that.

304
00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:53.519
<v Speaker 3>I love you. Oh insensive, I'm kind of rewarding it.

305
00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:56.799
<v Speaker 1>Okay, we have very little time left, but I do

306
00:14:56.840 --> 00:14:59.519
<v Speaker 1>want to ask you for one more quick hack. And

307
00:14:59.559 --> 00:15:01.120
<v Speaker 1>have you tried them all on your wife?

308
00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:04.759
<v Speaker 2>Have I tried all of them? One of my favorite

309
00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:07.200
<v Speaker 2>hacks is really straightforward one. It's related to what we

310
00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:11.240
<v Speaker 2>were talking about here, which is, there are circumstances that

311
00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:13.519
<v Speaker 2>exist in the world. Those are real, but what the

312
00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:18.039
<v Speaker 2>circumstance means that's up to us. The world like facts exist,

313
00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:20.159
<v Speaker 2>but they don't interpret themselves, and so we get to

314
00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:22.480
<v Speaker 2>interpret what we want to do. And you have just

315
00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:24.960
<v Speaker 2>offered a great example with regard to the open drawer.

316
00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:27.200
<v Speaker 2>You get to interpret that however you want. Have I

317
00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:31.080
<v Speaker 2>used all eight of the love hacks in my own marriage?

318
00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:33.759
<v Speaker 2>My guess is that I have. I haven't been systematic,

319
00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:35.519
<v Speaker 2>I haven't gone one to eight to do it, But

320
00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:37.720
<v Speaker 2>if I look through the list of eight, I'm confident

321
00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:39.399
<v Speaker 2>that I have tried to use them in my own

322
00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:40.000
<v Speaker 2>marriage as well.

323
00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:43.960
<v Speaker 1>Yes, so you literally being a relationship expert, a relationship researcher,

324
00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:46.600
<v Speaker 1>does your wife feel threatened or grateful?

325
00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:50.039
<v Speaker 2>She just rolls her eyes. She just thinks this idea.

326
00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:52.879
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the dedication of my book is to my wife, Allison,

327
00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:55.759
<v Speaker 2>who thinks it's hilarious that I'm a marriage expert.

328
00:15:56.600 --> 00:15:58.480
<v Speaker 1>Now, Julio tells his friends, if I can't have a

329
00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:01.120
<v Speaker 1>healthy relationship with this one, I can't have it with anybody.

330
00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:03.720
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's interesting, that's interesting.

331
00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:06.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, thank you so much for joining us. The book

332
00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:09.840
<v Speaker 1>is the All or Nothing Marriage, How the Best Marriages Work,

333
00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:12.759
<v Speaker 1>and the podcast is Love Factually?

334
00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:13.799
<v Speaker 3>Get It? Love Actually?

335
00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:14.080
<v Speaker 2>Is It?

336
00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:16.200
<v Speaker 1>Love Actually is one of my favorite movies, by the way,

337
00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:20.120
<v Speaker 1>But Love Factually there's an f in there, Doctor Eli Finkle,

338
00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:21.919
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for joining us.

339
00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:23.440
<v Speaker 2>Thank you for having me.

340
00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:27.000
<v Speaker 1>And that brings the Doctor Wendy Wall Show to eight Clothes.

341
00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.159
<v Speaker 1>I'm always here for you every Sunday night from seven

342
00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:31.159
<v Speaker 1>to nine. You can also follow me on my social

343
00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:35.320
<v Speaker 1>media at doctor Wendy Walsh. You've been listening to The

344
00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:38.240
<v Speaker 1>Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI AM six forty Live

345
00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:40.799
<v Speaker 1>everywhere on the iHeartRadio app