Speaker 1: Morning. The following podcast and Jean's grab content and material
Speaker 1: intended for a mature audience.
Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 1: Happy Tuesday. What's up? Guys? Whoa?
Speaker 2: Whoa?
Speaker 1: Are you? Okay?
Speaker 2: My balls just dropped? Sorry, shit, I don't know what
Speaker 2: happened there.
Speaker 1: That was interesting?
Speaker 2: No kidding? Wow, Welcome to Wicked.
Speaker 1: And Crimps, where it's ran by a how old am
Speaker 1: I thirty three and a thirteen year old? Currently?
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a true crime podcast. What's up? Welcome
Speaker 2: to the show.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Wicked and Grim? Did you say that?
Speaker 2: Did we say Wicked?
Speaker 1: Ingram? I don't know? Wicked and Graham? Welcome.
Speaker 2: This was one hell of an intro. So we're all
Speaker 2: over the place. Sorry, this is Wicked and Graham, a
Speaker 2: true crime podcast. My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, And yeah,
Speaker 2: you're listening to the show Wicked and Grim. I think
Speaker 2: we said that like three times.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so now you really know what the hell you're like?
Speaker 2: Percent But you're listening to part two today of the
Speaker 2: Black Dahlia.
Speaker 1: Yes, you made this wait a whole week.
Speaker 2: I did. And this was not an easy case to
Speaker 2: research because, oh my god, the rabbit holes are ridiculous.
Speaker 1: There's a lot to it.
Speaker 2: Hey, oh hell yeah. There are theories left, right and center.
Speaker 2: There's subtle little details and nuances that you can go
Speaker 2: off for hours on. It's it's crazy. There's movies, there's books,
Speaker 2: there's documentaries, there's forums, there's websites, you name it. It's
Speaker 2: it's it's a roller coaster.
Speaker 1: Sounds fun but not fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was hell to search button. Man, it was.
Speaker 2: It was fun to go into. So before we get
Speaker 2: into it, though, what do we got to talk about today?
Speaker 1: Well, for one, we're drinking very tasty hot chocolates because
Speaker 1: well today we're recording this on a Monday, it's National
Speaker 1: Hot Chocolate Day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so happy National Hot Chocolate Day. We gotta get.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're listening to this tomorrow, your day late.
Speaker 1: But that's okay. You can still have a hot chocolate
Speaker 1: you know what.
Speaker 2: It might not be National Hot Chocolate Day, but every
Speaker 2: day is hot chocolate Day.
Speaker 1: I freaking love hot chocolate. I could drink it every day.
Speaker 1: It's it's fucking good, so good, so good. It's like
Speaker 1: your chocolate milk.
Speaker 2: Almost okay for you, it's good, but nothing can beat
Speaker 2: chocolate milk. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: So good.
Speaker 2: I mean, they they're pretty similar. I'll give them that.
Speaker 1: It's like a warm hug and a cup.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well chocolate milk is like, no, that doesn't sound right.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say an orgasm in a cup. That
Speaker 2: does not sound right.
Speaker 1: Ew yeah, that's wow. So you might have just ruined
Speaker 1: chocolate for like everyone listening.
Speaker 2: Impossible, so silky deliciousness?
Speaker 1: Oh god? Okay, what else?
Speaker 2: We got to thank patrons again because you guys are
Speaker 2: continuing to support us and you're absolutely amazing. If you
Speaker 2: want to support us, head over to Patreon you can
Speaker 2: sign up. And we got to thank our people who
Speaker 2: signed up this week, so we got to think. Of course,
Speaker 2: we gotta think, hold on, my list is out here.
Speaker 1: You need help, I need help?
Speaker 2: Hold on?
Speaker 1: Oh there we go.
Speaker 2: I think I got it. Where do we leave off?
Speaker 2: We left off of.
Speaker 1: Caitlyn last time, right, Caitlin Black?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So after Caitlin, Laurie Brennan signed up and then
Speaker 2: we got and I'm sorry if I pronounced your last
Speaker 2: name wrong. Nicole's like, you can do it because I'm
Speaker 2: not going to try to pronounce your name, so she's
Speaker 2: leaving it to me. So I'm sorry if I butcher,
Speaker 2: but Lauri Egan or I don't know, but Laura, Laura,
Speaker 2: you're awesome, Yes, one hundred percent. You're wicked us wicked
Speaker 2: and desiree Salarin. I hope I said your last name too.
Speaker 2: Either way, if I said your name's wrong or right,
Speaker 2: I am so sorry. But you guys are wicked awesome.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for supporting us.
Speaker 1: Thank you. We can't thank you enough, really we can't.
Speaker 2: But we can say your name wrong.
Speaker 1: We can do that in like wicked and grim style.
Speaker 2: Yep, while drinking hot chocolate.
Speaker 1: There you go.
Speaker 2: So yeah, thank you very much for signing up for
Speaker 2: patron and being awesome.
Speaker 1: And then the other thing we have to talk about
Speaker 1: is how probably an accumulating accumulation of twenty minutes today
Speaker 1: I have talked about and different times, how sore your
Speaker 1: arms are.
Speaker 2: My arms are so sore, like so sore. Okay, So
Speaker 2: story like with pre covid, brought it up. Pre covid,
Speaker 2: I was starting to go to the gym like lots was.
Speaker 2: I ripped.
Speaker 1: No, but we were both doing a really good action.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're starting getting pretty good shape. Yeah, I was
Speaker 2: almost at two hundred pounds. I was I think two
Speaker 2: nine at my lowest, and currently I am at my
Speaker 2: all time heaviest at two hundred and thirty eight pounds.
Speaker 2: So that's not fun. So I got to go back
Speaker 2: to the gym. And I went back to the gym
Speaker 2: for the first time the other day. I thought I
Speaker 2: did a light workout.
Speaker 1: You did not. Clearly, turns out my arms are dead.
Speaker 2: I can't even straighten them. My biceps are so seized
Speaker 2: up there you're just flexed at I'm permaflexed right now,
Speaker 2: like in a relaxed state. My biceps are solid and
Speaker 2: flex they are so seized up it's it hurts. I love.
Speaker 1: It's just like such a guy thing too, that you're
Speaker 1: just like totally okay with saying how much you weigh,
Speaker 1: because I don't think I would ever just be like casually,
Speaker 1: this is how much I used to weigh, this is
Speaker 1: how much I weigh now, like that's like thirty pounds more.
Speaker 1: Holy shit.
Speaker 2: I personally don't think people should be ashamed.
Speaker 1: I know they shouldn't, but it's just it is like,
Speaker 1: I feel like guys and girls are quite different with
Speaker 1: how open they are. I definitely understand to discuss that, right.
Speaker 2: Well, maybe maybe me being able to discuss my highest
Speaker 2: weight ever is going to give someone else's ability to
Speaker 2: maybe not feel so self conscious about them with their
Speaker 2: highest weight.
Speaker 1: I'm definitely at my highest weight right now too, which
Speaker 1: is kind of sad.
Speaker 2: Not going to divulge it though, No, no.
Speaker 1: Don't source me.
Speaker 2: I wasn't forcing you. I was just asking what your
Speaker 2: intentions were.
Speaker 1: But I also kind of don't really want to be
Speaker 1: like fixated on that number like I had before, and
Speaker 1: more so just developing a healthy lifestyle where I can
Speaker 1: I can like maintain it down the road and it's
Speaker 1: not just like, oh, for one month, I'm going to
Speaker 1: like eat really healthy. In the next month, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: eat chick Chico Chicken. Off fucking mind.
Speaker 2: I fucking love Chico Chicken.
Speaker 1: We love Chico Chicken. But is that I wonder if
Speaker 1: that's in the States too.
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm pretty sure it is.
Speaker 1: It probably is. But yeah, so that's kind of my
Speaker 1: goal and just like feel like I can go maybe
Speaker 1: up a flight of stairs without being winded. That would
Speaker 1: be my ideal being healthy.
Speaker 2: Yeah. See, my goal is I want to drop down
Speaker 2: to two hundred pounds, not because I think I'll be
Speaker 2: healthiest there, but because I want to see the change
Speaker 2: in my body too, dropping to two hundred pounds and
Speaker 2: then from there, I want to understand, Okay, how can
Speaker 2: I make myself my healthiest? Do I need to gain
Speaker 2: a bit more weight? Can I be a little more
Speaker 2: relaxed on myself? So I want to be able to
Speaker 2: have a spot where I can start and then adjust accordingly.
Speaker 1: Because you're like six feet, right, six, So I feel
Speaker 1: like for a six foot dude, being like two hundred
Speaker 1: pounds or over whatever, I don't feel like is crazy.
Speaker 2: Oh no, definitely not even Like two thirty two forty
Speaker 2: is fairly normal for a dude my size. But I
Speaker 2: just want.
Speaker 1: To I want to get to that healthy.
Speaker 2: I don't feel healthy, not whatsoever. Yeah, so I got
Speaker 2: to get healthy, and I think a reset to two
Speaker 2: hundred pounds is a good way of doing it because
Speaker 2: then I can adjust accordingly. Do you gain weight or not?
Speaker 1: Forty pound goal?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Wow, let's do it. That's awesome. Do it.
Speaker 2: I don't think I'm going to stay at two hundred
Speaker 2: because I think that's too little. For the record, I
Speaker 2: think it's way too little. But I want to get
Speaker 2: there just so I ease my mind to be like, Okay,
Speaker 2: now I can go to work.
Speaker 1: I must have to do cardio then like wait, say
Speaker 1: oh yeah.
Speaker 2: But I gotta get my muscles back to being used
Speaker 2: to doing things.
Speaker 1: I want to squeeze them so bad.
Speaker 2: Maybe when I am not hurting.
Speaker 1: Well, like I'm right now, I want to squeeze no
Speaker 1: hurting and just listening to squeal a.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Torture Podcast where my co host and
Speaker 2: wife tortures me.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I don't.
Speaker 2: Let's get back to the show.
Speaker 1: Though, Yeah, let's do. It's okay because you left us off. Okay,
Speaker 1: if I'm remembering correctly here, because I have not re
Speaker 1: listened to the episode, which I wanted to do, but
Speaker 1: I didn't where we were going to start be going
Speaker 1: over theories and such, right, correct, which I'm kind of excited.
Speaker 2: So we did go over one theory in the last episode,
Speaker 2: which I'm just opening last episode's notes to remember. Said
Speaker 2: dude's name, Robert Redmanly. That's who it was, so went
Speaker 2: over that theory. He was the one who drove Elizabeth
Speaker 2: back to la and was one of the last people
Speaker 2: to see her alive at the hotel. He dropped her.
Speaker 1: Basically Yeah, So.
Speaker 2: I'm going to do a bit of a recap on
Speaker 2: the whole case of Elizabeth here, so you can get
Speaker 2: your mind all freshened up. So black Dolly apart, two
Speaker 2: buckle up.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 2: In nineteen forty seven, Elizabeth was taken by someone, possibly
Speaker 2: near the Baltimore Hotel in Los Angeles, kept for several
Speaker 2: days under horrific savage conditions, beaten, tortured, killed, and then
Speaker 2: her body desecrated and dumped in an empty lot. She
Speaker 2: was found nude, drained of her blood, cut in half
Speaker 2: at the waist, with three inch cuts from her the
Speaker 2: corner of her mouth up towards her ear, forcing a
Speaker 2: horrific smile on her cold face. There were letters sent
Speaker 2: to the police and media from the alleged killer, taunting
Speaker 2: them and even sending them personal effects from Elizabeth. But
Speaker 2: even with over one hundred suspects, police still couldn't find
Speaker 2: her killer, and the case is unsolved to this day.
Speaker 2: Everyone trying to understand what happened to Elizabeth Short.
Speaker 1: That's just brutal. Yeah, it's just brutal.
Speaker 2: Oh it is. Now there are some reports and stories
Speaker 2: out there that spend the whole tale of a young
Speaker 2: woman who is desperate for money while walking among the
Speaker 2: flashing Hollywood lights, desperate to make an income while she
Speaker 2: tried to keep her dream of becoming a film star
Speaker 2: live by turning into a sex worker, a job she
Speaker 2: hated but simply had to do. The reports continued to
Speaker 2: paint Elizabeth as a man hating wannaby actress who would
Speaker 2: get caught up in party scenes being involved in unsavory people.
Speaker 2: And let's just say, we're about to dive into some
Speaker 2: of the most popular and convincing theories surrounding Elizabeth's short
Speaker 2: aka to Black Dahlia, and we're going to divault some
Speaker 2: of this information whether it's true or false.
Speaker 1: Okay, you know, I just hate this so that it's
Speaker 1: not solved. I just hate unsolved cases.
Speaker 2: I personally like unsolved cases, but there are some I dislike.
Speaker 2: I would really really love if this was solved.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. I mean it's it's fun in the sense
Speaker 1: we're not fun, but like brain fun, I guess you
Speaker 1: could say, in the sense where you're like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: like what could it be, and you're like trying to
Speaker 1: think it through and going over all the theories and
Speaker 1: like trying to solve it in your brain and stuff.
Speaker 1: But then I don't know just that it actually isn't
Speaker 1: solved as so sad. But there's like solf cases out
Speaker 1: there too that are wrong.
Speaker 2: So that's true. That's very true, and like years later
Speaker 2: they've been proven wrong and then like they're like, oh shit,
Speaker 2: we got the wrong guy.
Speaker 1: So I prefer an unsolved versus something that's solved but wrong.
Speaker 2: That's true. So anyways, we're going to start this off
Speaker 2: by talking about a person by the name of Leslie
Speaker 2: Dylan Okay okay so. Leslie was a twenty seven year
Speaker 2: old bell hop and was an aspiring writer and former
Speaker 2: mortician's assistant who became a suspect when he began writing
Speaker 2: to Lost Angeles the Los Angeles Police Department psychiatrist doctor J.
Speaker 2: Paul De River or d River. I think it's two
Speaker 2: words d River. I'll go with that sounds better than
Speaker 2: it does. Sounds like I'm talking with a speech impediment
Speaker 2: over by de River. So Dee River in October of
Speaker 2: nineteen forty eight. Now, Leslie was living in Florida at
Speaker 2: the time of his correspondence with Dee River, but had
Speaker 2: formerly lived in Los Angeles. He read a story about
Speaker 2: the case of the Black Dahlia in a true detective
Speaker 2: style magazine in which Dee River was quoted and wrote
Speaker 2: to Dee River regarding his theories of the case. Now,
Speaker 2: he offered up one of his friends, Jeff Connors, as
Speaker 2: a likely suspect. Over the course of their correspondence, d
Speaker 2: River began to believe that Connors did not actually exist
Speaker 2: and that Leslie had committed the murder himself.
Speaker 1: Wow, could you imagine that that's the case.
Speaker 2: It's definitely not, because they always say, like the perpetrator
Speaker 2: returns to the scene of the crime. That's very common.
Speaker 2: So this is definitely a way of him like staying
Speaker 2: in touch with the case kind of proverbally proverbal perfect
Speaker 2: perverbally perverb I can't say the word, but basically reaching
Speaker 2: out and still keeping in touch with the case. So
Speaker 2: he's making those correspondents and kind of weasling his way
Speaker 2: back in it almost.
Speaker 1: Or going to their funerals and stuff. I've heard of that.
Speaker 2: Too, exactly.
Speaker 1: Just horrific.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no kidding, no, don't do that. If you're in
Speaker 2: like Hollywood movie lots of time, you're always the person
Speaker 2: in the back with a mysterious black umbrella in the suit,
Speaker 2: standing under a tree while it's pouring rain. People are like,
Speaker 2: who's that guy? I don't know?
Speaker 1: And then they just disappear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and when you go look back, they're gone, yep,
Speaker 2: that sort of shit.
Speaker 1: Hate that.
Speaker 2: Fuck those people. That's all I gotta say. But please
Speaker 2: please do that at my funeral. Someone do that when
Speaker 2: I pass away. Stand off in a distance and be
Speaker 2: a total creeper. Yes, clad in black, whether it's sunny
Speaker 2: or raining, bring an umbrella, whether it's overcast, whether it's winter, spring,
Speaker 2: I don't care. Black umbrella is a must.
Speaker 1: Okay, oh god.
Speaker 2: Even better if you are like a super sad woman
Speaker 2: all black lace and everything and you're like crying, because
Speaker 2: then it's like, oh shit, did Ben have like a
Speaker 2: second family or something? What the fuck is this? And
Speaker 2: it really gets people.
Speaker 1: Guessing, wow, I don't well, I'm glad that I know
Speaker 1: this ahead of her. I guess wow.
Speaker 2: Just to really get people questioning, oh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you just want to fuck with everyone from the grave?
Speaker 2: Eh it? Yeah? One lass ura right there you go.
Speaker 2: Well anyways, In December of nineteen forty eight, Dylan agreed
Speaker 2: to meet with de Rivers. Sorry, Leslie, Dylan Leslie agreed
Speaker 2: to meet with Dee Rivers and was given the choice
Speaker 2: of one of three cities, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Los Angeles,
Speaker 2: Los Angeles Phoenix, Arizona, or Los Angeles Nevada. There we
Speaker 2: go Los Angeles, Phoenix, Arizona, or Los Angeles, Nevada. That
Speaker 2: took me really long time to get it because this
Speaker 2: is the way I wrote it. It was just really weird.
Speaker 2: But anyways, Leslie expressed reservations about Los Angeles and chose
Speaker 2: Las Vegas instead. So Dee River and undercover LAPD's officer,
Speaker 2: Sergeant John JJ O'Mara of the Los Angeles Police Department,
Speaker 2: who served under already said he was LAPD double information
Speaker 2: for you. Anyways, he served as an undercover. He served
Speaker 2: undercover as his chauffeur and bodyguard smart E right. Also
Speaker 2: Lieutenant William joined along as well as being undercover as well.
Speaker 2: So we had basically two chauffeurs slash bodyguards go along
Speaker 2: with him, which were undercover cops.
Speaker 1: And was this dude had the reputation that he would
Speaker 1: need a body bodyguard.
Speaker 2: So I don't know, but I mean he is. He's
Speaker 2: in correlation with the LAPD. So it's like you know,
Speaker 2: we're just going to send you some drivers or chauffeur
Speaker 2: or whatever.
Speaker 1: Rate.
Speaker 2: It's a business trip, business expense sort of thing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so that's kind of what I took it as. Anyways,
Speaker 2: So anyways, the two police officers met Dee River at
Speaker 2: his home and drove to meet with Leslie. Now de
Speaker 2: River and undercover LPED officers met Leslie in Las Vegas
Speaker 2: for a couple of days, and then they proceeded to
Speaker 2: drive back to California. Once there, Leslie and d River
Speaker 2: traveled to San Francisco to look for their suspect, Jeff Connor,
Speaker 2: who Leslie claimed was involved. However, they were unsuccessful in
Speaker 2: searching or in finding this individually.
Speaker 1: Didn't exist. Right, Well, we'll get to that.
Speaker 2: We'll get to that. Okay, So you're thinking he does
Speaker 2: not exist, that's what your your thought is.
Speaker 1: Sure, Sure, I don't know if I have enough information
Speaker 1: to say say for sure, but I'm going to go
Speaker 1: with that.
Speaker 2: Well that's a speculation of authorities currently.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to go with that.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to tell you at this point in time,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to tell you what I know, but
Speaker 2: while researching, at this point in time, I agree.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, so that means that's wrong. But let's go.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just not saying it's
Speaker 2: right either. It could be either.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Now. During the time they spent together, Leslie apparently offered
Speaker 2: up intimate details about the crime and talked very disturbingly
Speaker 2: over certain things, one of which being a conversation about
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Short and why her body would be cut in half.
Speaker 2: Sergeant O'Mara said that there was talk when discussing Elizabeth's body,
Speaker 2: the incision and the cut through the body. Specifically, Yeah, Leslie,
Speaker 2: according to Sergeant O'Mara, said, he was He said this,
Speaker 2: This is a quote directly from Leslie. The person would
Speaker 2: want to see how far his penis went into the person.
Speaker 1: What.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's his theory on why she was cut
Speaker 2: in half.
Speaker 1: Mother of god, I was not expecting that.
Speaker 2: Neither was I. That is fucked up.
Speaker 1: I hate that. Yeah, Like that is disturbing.
Speaker 2: Oh, that is beyond disturbing.
Speaker 1: That is fact, one of the most horrend disturbing things
Speaker 1: I think I've ever heard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so we went there sleep with that information tonight.
Speaker 1: Wow, Holy shit, you good. This is why Monday nights,
Speaker 1: I never sleep well.
Speaker 2: Hey, specifically because of this ship that gets.
Speaker 1: In my brain and then I have to go to bed.
Speaker 2: Well, the fact that there's people out there with that
Speaker 2: sort of mentality is so fucked up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think. I don't even think I could
Speaker 1: ever go there.
Speaker 2: Well, the fact that executing it is far, like it's
Speaker 2: of course the farthest you can go. But even just
Speaker 2: thinking it is bad enough. Yeah, like thinking like, oh,
Speaker 2: someone would totally do that.
Speaker 1: They can't even go there. It just doesn't go there.
Speaker 2: Yet me either, I was like, what they fucking excuse
Speaker 2: me when I read that?
Speaker 1: Holy shit, I hate it. So I don't like this
Speaker 1: person at all, Like, no dom with them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel you.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: After arriving in LA and taking Leslie to the location
Speaker 2: where Elizabeth's bondy was found, Leslie was visibly distressed and
Speaker 2: potentially even began to realize he himself was a suspect.
Speaker 2: It wasn't long before Leslie was actually taken into custody
Speaker 2: and booked as a suspect on January tenth, nineteen forty nine,
Speaker 2: at the Highland Park Station. Now police soon discovered that
Speaker 2: Leslie's friend, Jeff Connors did exist, did indeed exist? His
Speaker 2: real name was Artie Lane. Lane had lived in Los
Speaker 2: Angeles at the time of the murder and was employed
Speaker 2: as a maintenance man by Columbia Studios, a favorite hangout
Speaker 2: of Elizabeth's. Oh so there is potential tie there, Okay. Now,
Speaker 2: Dee River made recordings of his interviews with Leslie Dylon
Speaker 2: where he garan sorry, where he questioned his suspect about
Speaker 2: the detail of Elizabeth Shorts murders. And I actually have
Speaker 2: a little bit of their conversation, So I'm going to
Speaker 2: back and forth here a little bit. So de River said,
Speaker 2: what do you think the killer did with the hair
Speaker 2: shaved off the private parts of the body of Elizabeth Short?
Speaker 2: Because her pubic care had been trimmed at least. I
Speaker 2: don't know if it was fully shaved, but it was
Speaker 2: at least trimmed, forcefully trimmed, like by the killer sort
Speaker 2: of thing.
Speaker 1: But it wasn't all right.
Speaker 2: I don't believe it was fully.
Speaker 1: Because I feel like I saw a picture and there
Speaker 1: was that some there.
Speaker 2: The picture is also very deceiving because she had a
Speaker 2: lot of cuts in that area too.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, And I definitely like zoom in to look.
Speaker 1: So yes, okay, okay.
Speaker 2: So Dylan's response was, I think the killer such as
Speaker 2: he was would probably have thrown the hair in the
Speaker 2: toilet and flush it. Dee River, what do you think
Speaker 2: a killer such as he would want would do with
Speaker 2: a piece of flesh with a tattoo on it that
Speaker 2: he cut off her thigh? This was a new piece
Speaker 2: of information that I did not find until running across this. Okay,
Speaker 2: Apparently she had a small tattoo. I don't know of what,
Speaker 2: but it was removed and cut from her body as well.
Speaker 1: Interesting, that's something a killer would keep us, like a trophy.
Speaker 2: Definitely. Yeah, So Dylan responded, well, I think you would
Speaker 2: probably have thrown that down the toilet and flushed it.
Speaker 1: No, that's a keeper.
Speaker 2: I think so too. That's a trophy, like you say.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now, On another recording of interview with them, Dee River asked,
Speaker 2: are you the one who murdered Elizabeth Short? Dylan responded,
Speaker 2: doctor d River, the trouble with this is that you
Speaker 2: first reached your own conclusion about the case, and then
Speaker 2: you try dig up things to prove that your conclusions
Speaker 2: are correct. De River, what do you think I am
Speaker 2: a child? What do you mean by talking to me
Speaker 2: that way. I'm a person who has been around. That's
Speaker 2: all I could find of said recording and the transcription
Speaker 2: that came from it. Now, this seems weird to me,
Speaker 2: just saying because I agree with you. Any person in
Speaker 2: the right mind seeing that a killer carved out a
Speaker 2: tattoo from a person would obviously say that's a trophy.
Speaker 2: They're keeping that shit. So he's almost looking guilty to
Speaker 2: me saying the fact, Oh, he just threw it in
Speaker 2: the toilet, just like everything else. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I find this whole thing super odd with this guy.
Speaker 1: But then I also think that if he actually did
Speaker 1: do something, I don't know if he'd be going this far. Like,
Speaker 1: I just think he's almost kind of just like really odd.
Speaker 2: He was quite the odd individual, especially they found that
Speaker 2: out when they were driving and stuff. He was really
Speaker 2: weird because.
Speaker 1: I think if he actually did this, I can't see
Speaker 1: that he would be like going this far because he's
Speaker 1: just like incriminating himself so much.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So his friend that he says was responsible, Jeff Connors,
Speaker 2: he was not able to be tied to the crime.
Speaker 2: And now, also, contrary to popular belief and many other sources,
Speaker 2: Leslie could not be conclusively placed in San Francisco, where
Speaker 2: he claimed to be at the time of the murders.
Speaker 2: He also couldn't be conclusively placed in la where Elizabeth
Speaker 2: was murdered. In fact, police never could account for his
Speaker 2: whereabouts between January ninth and January fifteenth in nineteen forty seven,
Speaker 2: the same time she disappeared and was tortured and murdered.
Speaker 1: Hmmm, interesting, I just still don't think it's him, though, No,
Speaker 1: why don't you think it's him? Well, because I already
Speaker 1: said I just don't think.
Speaker 2: Do you just think he wouldn't go this far?
Speaker 1: Because I can understand sometimes like okay, like sending letters, phoning,
Speaker 1: but I don't think you'd go to this extent where he's, like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, traveling with them, and it just too far.
Speaker 1: I just think it's just too far. That's just not smart.
Speaker 2: Now you have a point, now, Leslie would have was
Speaker 2: eventually released due to a lack of evidence, and he
Speaker 2: later filed a one hundred thousand dollars lawsuit against the
Speaker 2: city of Los Angeles, Oh Boy, but dropped the lawsuit
Speaker 2: after it emerged that he was wanted by Santa Monica
Speaker 2: Police for robbery. Okay, so he kind of fucked himself
Speaker 2: over there with that.
Speaker 1: But the whole thing is just really weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: In two thousand and four, Dee River's daughter Jackie Daniel,
Speaker 2: published a book called the Curse of the Black Dahlia,
Speaker 2: in which she expressed her belief that her father had
Speaker 2: been unfairly ignorant in seeking out Leslie as a suspect
Speaker 2: in Elizabeth's case. So she believes her dad was actually
Speaker 2: wrong and was basically just prejudiced towards Leslie in this particular,
Speaker 2: just trying to make the glove fit. I said the word,
Speaker 2: I said proverbial.
Speaker 1: Oh there you go, yes, win, Yeah, that made me happy. Sorry,
Speaker 1: she thinks that it was Leslie or wasn't Leslie.
Speaker 2: Sorry she thinks it was not. I mind you. I
Speaker 2: didn't read this book yet, so I didn't go into detail.
Speaker 2: I did way too much reading on other things to
Speaker 2: get into books. There's too many books, fair, god knows what.
Speaker 2: So I don't know for sure if she thinks it
Speaker 2: was Leslie or not, but I do know that she
Speaker 2: she thinks it was unfair of her father to pursue
Speaker 2: Leslie so much. And thinks it was ignorant of him
Speaker 2: to do. So.
Speaker 1: Wow, I wonder how their father daughter relationships going.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I would imagine that he's actually well,
Speaker 2: he might not even be alive anymore.
Speaker 1: So, I know what that is, such a thing to
Speaker 1: put in a book published like that.
Speaker 2: Well, there's no, that's not the only father child's accusations
Speaker 2: within this.
Speaker 1: Case, really really okay.
Speaker 2: The most popular one we're going to talk about at
Speaker 2: the end here is a crazy one, and that's a
Speaker 2: son accusing his father. But before that, we got to
Speaker 2: talk about another individual here. George Knowlton, now Janie Knowlton,
Speaker 2: now sixty seven, was ten years old and living in
Speaker 2: Westminster when the nude body of Elizabeth was found. This
Speaker 2: is also I just realized. I just clicked in, yeah,
Speaker 2: that it's a daughter father.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was just like, okay, yep.
Speaker 2: Now, more than forty years later, she inserted herself into
Speaker 2: one of the city's most sensational and gruesome unsolved murders ever,
Speaker 2: the Black Dahlia. She said, Oh, I just lost my spot.
Speaker 2: She said, horrific, horrifying. Long repressed memories had convinced her
Speaker 2: that her father had been the murder and the one
Speaker 2: who caused all this. Now, there's little reliable information that
Speaker 2: is available on George Nolton except that he lived in
Speaker 2: the Los Angeles area at the time of the Black
Speaker 2: Dahlia murder and he died in an automobile accident in
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty two. The rest comes from Janis and her family.
Speaker 2: Janis was previously a professional singer and public relations firm
Speaker 2: owner who lived in Anaheim Hills. Janis claims she witnessed
Speaker 2: her rage filled father beat Elizabeth to death with a
Speaker 2: claw hammer in the detached grudge of the family home
Speaker 2: in Westminster. Okay, that would be one hell of a
Speaker 2: fucking thing to see.
Speaker 1: Well, no shit, I mean, and you would definitely probably
Speaker 1: suppress that.
Speaker 2: Yep. Her claims of the horrific murder are based largely
Speaker 2: on recovered memories that surface during therapy for depression after
Speaker 2: a hysterectomy. So, huh, these memories that she had repressed
Speaker 2: came up. I don't know. I'm really conflicted about that.
Speaker 2: I understand people repressing memories, but that seems like something
Speaker 2: like it would scar you. I just don't know how
Speaker 2: you could forget that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I have heard like people suppressed pretty graphic
Speaker 1: groupsome things. But then also it's like, would that just
Speaker 1: come up in like a therapy counseling session or would
Speaker 1: it almost have to be like a hypnosis.
Speaker 2: Yeah, hypnotherapy. I don't know. I couldn't find if because
Speaker 2: I looked in to see if it was a hypnotherapy thing, yeah,
Speaker 2: and I couldn't find anything on that.
Speaker 1: Huh. So, I mean I've had some counseling sessions though,
Speaker 1: where it's like you recall things, but it's nothing like that.
Speaker 1: I like, really very deep, I think, right, but I
Speaker 1: don't even know if I have anything that I buried
Speaker 1: real deep inside.
Speaker 2: But until next session when you bring that shit up
Speaker 2: that you've been repressing, you never know.
Speaker 1: You never know. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now, based on these recovered memories, though, Jen has published
Speaker 2: a book called Daddy Was the Black Dahlia Killer.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, with a veteran crime writer Michael Newton in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety five.
Speaker 1: I just feel like that if that would just be
Speaker 1: things that I don't know, would you want to be
Speaker 1: like at the time of the book going out, the
Speaker 1: dad was dead dead right, Yes, Like that just seems
Speaker 1: like a terrible thing to be putting out there. Like
Speaker 1: when your dad is dead and can't talk to him
Speaker 1: about it and I don't know. Okay, okay, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: you good, I'm good.
Speaker 2: You sure?
Speaker 1: Yep, that's summer two, okay.
Speaker 2: Now. In the book, she alleged that her father had
Speaker 2: been having an affair with Elizabeth and that she was
Speaker 2: staying in a makeshift bedroom in the garage, where she
Speaker 2: suffered a miscarriage. The claim continues that George murdered Elizabeth
Speaker 2: in the garage and bisected her in the sink, then
Speaker 2: forced his then ten year old daughter Janis to accompany
Speaker 2: him when he disposed of the body. Seems a little
Speaker 2: bit far fetched with me. Why would he force his
Speaker 2: daughters to do that? That's just weird. Not saying people
Speaker 2: don't do that, they fucking do, which is weird as
Speaker 2: fuck to start with. But I just trying to get
Speaker 2: away with murder. Why would you include more?
Speaker 1: You know, well, your kid, yeah, like your little kid.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, according to Janice, Elizabeth was a sex worker
Speaker 2: and a procurer of children for a child trafficking ring.
Speaker 2: Janis also claimed that a former member of the Los
Speaker 2: Angeles Sheriff's Department told her that her father was at
Speaker 2: one time considered to be a suspect in the case,
Speaker 2: a claim that is unsupported by public records. Police to
Speaker 2: police did take her claim seriously, even excavating grounds around
Speaker 2: the childhood home where she grew up searching for evidence,
Speaker 2: but they found nothing to chie to tie George to
Speaker 2: the crime at all.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I don't think you would after that amount
Speaker 1: of time.
Speaker 2: Really No, I don't think so. Well, not necessarily. I mean,
Speaker 2: if there are bones, bones would stay. But and her
Speaker 2: body was recovered.
Speaker 1: But then wasn't all her bones with her body?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so her body was recovered, So I just yeah,
Speaker 2: but I mean potential other victims.
Speaker 1: Who knows, right, truche Yeah.
Speaker 2: Los Angeles Police Department, John P. Saint John awesome name
Speaker 2: by the way, just saying that was talked to I
Speaker 2: had talked to Janice and does not believe that there's
Speaker 2: a connection between the Black Dahlia murder and her father.
Speaker 2: He's quoted to say, we have a lot of people
Speaker 2: offering up their fathers in various relatives to the black
Speaker 2: or sorry as the Black Doahlia killer. The things that
Speaker 2: she is saying are not consistent with the facts of
Speaker 2: the case.
Speaker 1: So why are people just offering.
Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe they're convinced, they've convinced themselves in
Speaker 2: some way. I'm not sure. Maybe there is coincidences that
Speaker 2: are lining up that just seem too perfect for them
Speaker 2: to let go.
Speaker 1: Yes, jeez, I don't like this person. I want to
Speaker 1: just like pretend in my head that they did this, yeah,
Speaker 1: and offer them to the police. Like that's just really weird.
Speaker 1: Yeah it is, Okay, this whole case is kind of
Speaker 1: weird though.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you could say that we're not even into the
Speaker 2: fucking the deep waters of this.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now.
Speaker 2: On March fifth, two thousand and four, Janis Nolton died
Speaker 2: of an overdose of prescription drugs in what was deemed
Speaker 2: a suicide by an Orange County, California corner's office. In
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, Newton wrote that Janice Nolton's relatives confirmed that
Speaker 2: her father, George, was capable of violent abuse, and further
Speaker 2: reported that his boasts of having unprosecuted homicides. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: there's some shit going down.
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, that's really it's sad.
Speaker 2: Actually, Yeah, Unfortunately, the entire thing it lacks substantial evidence.
Speaker 2: There's there's nothing to really show any of it. But
Speaker 2: I mean, if he did kill some people and got
Speaker 2: away with it, that ain't cool either.
Speaker 1: Yeah. You have to wonder though, why she ended up
Speaker 1: killing herself. If it was just memories that coming back
Speaker 1: that she can't control.
Speaker 2: Well, and she really couldn't let this go either. She
Speaker 2: actually became somewhat infamous with an online black Dolia discussion
Speaker 2: within sorry, the online black Dolia discussion communities for her
Speaker 2: insistence that the LPD was engaged in a conspiracy to
Speaker 2: discredit her story in order to conceal their knowledge of
Speaker 2: his of her father's involvement. So she was quite quite
Speaker 2: into this, and she was quite adamant, and she couldn't
Speaker 2: let it go. So I think it was something that
Speaker 2: just over y ate up at her and just took over.
Speaker 2: Whether it's factual or whether she was can just convincing
Speaker 2: herself is who's to say.
Speaker 1: And she just died in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2: Two thousand and nine.
Speaker 1: Oh okay nine.
Speaker 2: Now, I do want to set the record straight before
Speaker 2: we go any further. Elizabeth Short was not a sex
Speaker 2: worker or a call girl. Elizabeth Short was not an
Speaker 2: actress or a failed actress. There's no proof to support
Speaker 2: the idea that she even applied for being an extra,
Speaker 2: not to say that she didn't dream of it, but
Speaker 2: there is no proof that she ever even tried. Elizabeth
Speaker 2: Short was also not sexually infatile and capable of intercourse,
Speaker 2: which apparently there are accusations out there of that Elizabeth
Speaker 2: was not pregnant at the time for her disappearance and
Speaker 2: death and confirmed by her autopsy, so the whole pregnancy
Speaker 2: thing is also off the board. She was not an alcoholic,
Speaker 2: she was not a lesbian, which apparently there's also allegations
Speaker 2: of that, she was not a man hater. And finally,
Speaker 2: as some theories draw similar lines between Alisa Lamb and
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Short, there are only quincides this is at best,
Speaker 2: and Elizabeth was not at the Cecil Hotel before she disappeared.
Speaker 1: Wow, this case is a lot of rumors going around
Speaker 1: oday and just people making a lot of things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, whether it's media looking for a good story
Speaker 2: or just rumors getting out a hand like, Elizabeth's name
Speaker 2: has been dragged through the mud since her unfortunate end,
Speaker 2: which is terribly sad.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's really sad.
Speaker 2: So to set the record straight on all those you
Speaker 2: got that information straight now, she was none of those things.
Speaker 2: She was not pregnant. She was just your average woman
Speaker 2: living in Los Angeles who potentially was aspiring to be
Speaker 2: an actress.
Speaker 1: And sorry in that because you went kind of fast
Speaker 1: for all of them. Did you say that she had
Speaker 1: never been pregnant?
Speaker 2: Uh, not been pregnant at the time of her disappearance
Speaker 2: and DEAs and con she was not pregnant at the
Speaker 2: time of her death or her disappearance, okay, which is
Speaker 2: confirmed by her autopsy. Now, I do not think she
Speaker 2: had a child as far as my research has shown.
Speaker 2: Mind you, I didn't look that up specifically, but I
Speaker 2: do not believe she's ever had a child, know.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay? Now, she was pretty young too, right.
Speaker 2: She was, I believe she was. I can't remember her
Speaker 2: exact age, but I believe twenty two to twenty five somewhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, Now on to the last.
Speaker 2: One, now we will. This is the most notable one, okay,
Speaker 2: and it's probably one of the most like high prolific
Speaker 2: ones that people are more familiar with.
Speaker 1: Is this one you've been teasing with me for weeks?
Speaker 2: Yes, finally, this is George Hodell and I it's hours
Speaker 2: of information to talk about, hours days probably even so
Speaker 2: if I miss information, I am so sorry. I tried
Speaker 2: to wrap this up as best I can. All right, okay, but.
Speaker 1: You already mentioned it, George, But this is a totally different,
Speaker 1: totally different George.
Speaker 2: Okay, new George, new George. Now Steve Hodell's father, George
Speaker 2: had passed away and may have nineteen ninety nine, and
Speaker 2: he quickly found himself sorting through his father's belongings, trying
Speaker 2: to tie up loose ends, as one does when a
Speaker 2: family member unfortunately passes away. George Hodell was born in
Speaker 2: October tenth, nineteen oh seven, and passed away on May sixteenth,
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine. He was an American physician and proudly
Speaker 2: boasted about his one hundred and eighty six IQ, well
Speaker 2: above Albert Einstein's one sixty.
Speaker 1: You already said something of interest, but keep going.
Speaker 2: I know I did.
Speaker 1: What was it, the surgeon thing?
Speaker 2: I said, physician?
Speaker 1: But yeah, oh, but yes, yeah, I in my brain,
Speaker 1: I'm like, this guy's a surgeon. He's guilty.
Speaker 2: But yes, you're You're definitely on the right track there.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Now, After the success of George's medical practice and becoming
Speaker 2: head of the County's Social Hygiene Bureau. Hodell liked to
Speaker 2: enjoy the finer things in life, one of which being art.
Speaker 2: He befriended an artist and photographer Man Ray, film director
Speaker 2: John Houston, and many other associates. Together him and his friends,
Speaker 2: they shared a fondness for things others, like other things
Speaker 2: in the finer lifestyle, like partying, drinking, womanizing. And there's
Speaker 2: many stories out there of a very darker side of
Speaker 2: the sexual activities they involved that they involved.
Speaker 1: Themselves in this group of friends.
Speaker 2: Basically, yes, many of them being very aggressive and dark,
Speaker 2: such as beating individuals during intercourse BDSM without the safe
Speaker 2: word pretty much.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: So that's a whole other topic. But I just wanted
Speaker 2: to just throw that in there, that that's.
Speaker 1: A possible and they're basically brought like wealthy, powerful men, Yes,
Speaker 1: very much.
Speaker 2: So. Now, none of this was a secret to Steve.
Speaker 2: He saw it all growing up. As he went through
Speaker 2: his father's possessions, Steve ended up finding a photo album
Speaker 2: tucked away in a box he was small enough to
Speaker 2: fit in his palm, and it was tucked away, like
Speaker 2: I said in this night neat little wooden box. It
Speaker 2: was filled with the usual pictures of his mom, his dad,
Speaker 2: and brothers, and as well portraits of his family taken
Speaker 2: by the artist and photographer Man Ray so professional photographers
Speaker 2: by this artist friend. Okay, but towards the back there's
Speaker 2: something that caught his eye. Two pictures of a young woman,
Speaker 2: her eyes cast downward, with curly, deep black hair and
Speaker 2: pausing for a moment. Steve stared at the pictures and
Speaker 2: something clicked and he said, my god, this looks like
Speaker 2: the black Dahlia.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: A connection that was all too easy for Steve Hodell,
Speaker 2: who was an ex LAPD detective. Holy shit, yep.
Speaker 1: Imagine finding that.
Speaker 2: Egh, no kidding.
Speaker 1: I think I would be like shaken.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean to see something like that'd be like,
Speaker 2: there's an obvious connection here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's fucked. But I almost feel like if
Speaker 1: it's in that certain photo al but maybe it's like
Speaker 1: another kid of sorts, a secret child or something kind
Speaker 1: of where my head went right away.
Speaker 2: I mean, it could be I never really thought of that,
Speaker 2: I don't know. Or it could be a sacred.
Speaker 1: Lover that too. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So now, one of the most immediate suspicions of George
Speaker 2: Hodell being was the murder in this way was Elizabeth
Speaker 2: was cut in half, Because, like we talked about, he's
Speaker 2: a physician, and Elizabeth was cut in half. It was
Speaker 2: extremely precise, with little to no damage done in the process.
Speaker 2: In fact, there is a medical name for said process.
Speaker 2: Elizabeth had been given a I'm gonna butcher this, but
Speaker 2: I'm gonna try hemi corporal hemi corpor rectomy. Huh, a
Speaker 2: procedure that slices the body beneath the lumbar spine, the
Speaker 2: only spot where the body can be severed in half
Speaker 2: without breaking bone.
Speaker 1: Really, Oh, there's actually a spot.
Speaker 2: There's a specific spot.
Speaker 1: I didn't know.
Speaker 2: That, now you do. And that's where she.
Speaker 1: Was way not knowing that.
Speaker 2: I feel like I would have been okay, knowing a
Speaker 2: lot of things, or without knowing a lot of things
Speaker 2: from this case. So welcome to my word.
Speaker 1: From a lot from a lot of our cases.
Speaker 2: Really, Yeah, that's true, that's true. I think I'm repressing
Speaker 2: a lot of those things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're gonna have to start going and counseling and
Speaker 1: bringing up ship that we're suppressing from all this show.
Speaker 2: Probably we talk about a lot of fucked up assholes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like it's ridiculous that's the majority of our conversations.
Speaker 2: I don't know, even like making dinner and stuff, just
Speaker 2: like talking about douche canoes and like, what's the next case, Oh,
Speaker 2: you should hear it, it's fucking.
Speaker 1: Horrific, or just weird shit in general.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or or my favorite one, how much my arm's
Speaker 2: fucking her hurts so much.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that I brought this up. People, they hurt. Okay,
Speaker 1: I have literally heard that. Probably I should have counted
Speaker 1: I should asserted itally this morning just for fun, and
Speaker 1: not even have told you, well, probably fifty times.
Speaker 2: Let's see if we can get to one hundred by
Speaker 2: the night's end.
Speaker 1: That's okay, that's not.
Speaker 2: Challenge accepted, all right. So that the hemi corporrectomy, it
Speaker 2: was actually a procedure taught in the nineteen thirties, the
Speaker 2: time when George had been to medical school.
Speaker 1: Why was this taught? Sorry, I don't know, if you're
Speaker 1: going there.
Speaker 2: I don't know why it was taught. Okay, It's one
Speaker 2: of those things that I didn't look into. There's too
Speaker 2: much for me to look into.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really odd.
Speaker 2: And it seems like it's a little bit of a
Speaker 2: if you want to learn. I mean, by all means,
Speaker 2: go go for it. Tell us why this was actually taught.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm assuming it's something to do with
Speaker 2: autopsies or something of the life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my search has seen bad enough things. I'm giving
Speaker 1: it a break.
Speaker 2: Oh, the FBI is looking at her computers, going, what
Speaker 2: the fuck? We are definitely being surveillanced. Oh, I guarantee it.
Speaker 2: So anyways, Steve surveyed this case from scratch, digging through witnesses, interviews,
Speaker 2: newspaper archives, and once he set his eye on the
Speaker 2: letters that were from the Black Dellia murders, Steve made
Speaker 2: another connection the letters that had been sent to the
Speaker 2: police and the press. The one that was handwritten, specifically,
Speaker 2: bore a chilling resemblance to his dad's hand, so much
Speaker 2: so that Steve swears to this day that the writing
Speaker 2: is one hundred percent his father's, no doubt in his mind.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Oh me could just breathe my face. Oh dog, you've
Speaker 2: got stinky breast. Good girl, but cool laid.
Speaker 1: Down to her.
Speaker 2: That was rawnch wow o meek. Oh, this whole place
Speaker 2: needs like aired out.
Speaker 1: Now, are you okay? It's not that bad?
Speaker 2: I don't know if she was just licking her butt
Speaker 2: or something, but that was bad anyways. So with this information, uh,
Speaker 2: Steve ended up filing a Freedom of Information Act to
Speaker 2: retrieve the FBI files on the murder and the information
Speaker 2: that the bureau had collected on his father. He sent
Speaker 2: the photographs that he had found of his father's photo
Speaker 2: album for facial recognition experts to examine. One remains unknown
Speaker 2: and the other one has been identified potentially as another woman,
Speaker 2: both not being certain.
Speaker 1: Oh, like, they're not certain it's even her.
Speaker 2: They're not photos, but they can't conclusively say yes or no. Now,
Speaker 2: I've I've seen mixed reviews on if the one woman
Speaker 2: had actually been identified in the in one photo. Hm,
Speaker 2: So I'm not certain if it's this woman has been
Speaker 2: identified as a certain individual, or has been identified that
Speaker 2: this is not Elizabeth Okay, Again, mixed reviews on that one. However,
Speaker 2: the second photo, for sure is inconclusive whether it's her
Speaker 2: or not.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Now, a handwriting expert determined that there was strong likelihood
Speaker 2: that the father's handwriting match to script on some of
Speaker 2: the notes that the killer had sent the LBPD, but
Speaker 2: the results again were also inconclusive.
Speaker 1: Because i feel like actually people, it's as she when
Speaker 1: I don't know, just back in the day when everyone
Speaker 1: kind of was right handwriting like the same. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: feel like it could actually be resemblance without potentially there's.
Speaker 2: Potential, but there's little nuances on how someone writes something.
Speaker 1: The director, the pressure, the pressure.
Speaker 2: The direction you write a letter, if you if we
Speaker 2: all do in a zero, we're all going to do
Speaker 2: it differently. We'll start at a different spot and we'll
Speaker 2: go a different direction. We'll do different sizes. It might
Speaker 2: slant slightly, it might be shorter and fatter, it might
Speaker 2: be taller skin. There's a lot of little things that
Speaker 2: give it away. Now, in the archives that Steve had
Speaker 2: actually been able to get from the authorities, Steve found
Speaker 2: a folder containing receipts for contract working in his childhood home.
Speaker 2: One of the receipts showed a purchase of a few
Speaker 2: days before schwartz murder, ten five pound bags of concrete. Now,
Speaker 2: at the scene of the crime, not too far away,
Speaker 2: there was a bag that was found of concrete. And
Speaker 2: this was the same brand and same size of said
Speaker 2: concrete bag that had been found.
Speaker 1: What does that mean? Sorry, So, when she was put
Speaker 1: in the concrete bag, or that they this person had plans.
Speaker 2: Potentially they believe that in one of these bags that
Speaker 2: I had found by the crime scene, that the killer
Speaker 2: may have used this bag for transport, transport and carry
Speaker 2: her body. Now, the bag was from a brand of concrete. Okay,
Speaker 2: powder that you mix up and everything. The bags in
Speaker 2: said receipt were the same size of bag and the
Speaker 2: same brand of bag that was found at the scene
Speaker 2: of the crime.
Speaker 1: Okay, But would the dad have had any other use
Speaker 1: for this concrete? Maybe he's buying for something.
Speaker 2: Maybe, So sorry, I'm just like you're playing devil's advocates.
Speaker 2: I usually do that.
Speaker 1: I really am here.
Speaker 2: It's a good though now as a civilian. As a
Speaker 2: civilian now, because he has retired, Steve doesn't have access
Speaker 2: to the original police files, and an officer actually admitted
Speaker 2: to him he even if he did have access, majority
Speaker 2: of the physical evidence has been lost over the years,
Speaker 2: most of the witnesses are dead, and the original cops
Speaker 2: that worked the case are also deceased.
Speaker 1: So this is just like never going to get solved,
Speaker 1: probably mean.
Speaker 2: Most likely. But yeah, Now, in two thousand and one,
Speaker 2: after two years of researching the case full time, Hodell
Speaker 2: or Steve Hodell turned to another individual, Stephen Kay, an
Speaker 2: acquaintance of it who worked at the Los Angeles County
Speaker 2: District Attorney's office. Steve still wasn't sure he could be
Speaker 2: he could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that his father
Speaker 2: was the Black Dahlia Killer, but he was convinced his
Speaker 2: investigation had unearthed enough new material to justify a fresh
Speaker 2: look from law enforcement officials into the into the case.
Speaker 2: So his friend Steve Kay agreed. He said, all right,
Speaker 2: let's review the files. So he went in, and six
Speaker 2: weeks later Kay responded to him with a glowing letter
Speaker 2: saying this, thanks to some great detective work by this
Speaker 2: Sorry I butchered that sentence. Thanks to some great detective
Speaker 2: work by his courageous son Steve, the name of doctor
Speaker 2: George Hodell will live in infamy. What do you think
Speaker 2: that means?
Speaker 1: I have no idea. Actually, I was going to ask that,
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm asking too many Well, so I
Speaker 1: just didn't.
Speaker 2: Let's just say this. He continued to say that if
Speaker 2: George was still alive, he would file two charges of
Speaker 2: murder against him. Oh wow, he believes Steve was right.
Speaker 1: Wow. Hey, yeah, huh okay, But I also just still
Speaker 1: find this so interesting that like these parents and stuff
Speaker 1: are dead and then the kids are just like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, I feel like i'd bury that, but I
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe that makes me a terrible person. I
Speaker 1: don't know.
Speaker 2: You don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know how far I would dig into this, right,
Speaker 1: you know?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's it's a bit different because he
Speaker 2: is and he's a retired detective.
Speaker 1: True, that's true, very true.
Speaker 2: So I mean it's yeah, you would.
Speaker 1: Be very curious, but then how far would you go
Speaker 1: with it too? Is just what I'm kind of getting
Speaker 1: at here.
Speaker 2: So if you were a retired detective and your father
Speaker 2: could be a prolific murderer or serial killer, you you
Speaker 2: can't tell me you wouldn't try to do something write
Speaker 2: about that, or you'd cover it up for him.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if I should answer this.
Speaker 2: In case your dad is listening. Uh well, moving on
Speaker 2: from that, I won't put that pressure on you. I'll
Speaker 2: take that pressure off. Steve Lopez. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: Steves in this, by the way. Steve Lopez, a columnist
Speaker 2: at the Los Angeles Times, received a copy of Steve's
Speaker 2: book that he wrote shortly after this and decided to
Speaker 2: write about it. While in fact checking his column, Lopez
Speaker 2: asked the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office for more
Speaker 2: information on the murder. The DA's office complied, and Lopez
Speaker 2: received access to a file that Lieutenant Frank Jemison, one
Speaker 2: of the original officers involved in the investigation, had left
Speaker 2: behind in a safe in the basement at the District
Speaker 2: Attorney's office. The file a copy of which the District
Speaker 2: Attorney also shared with The Guardian. You know, the Guardian
Speaker 2: write the articles.
Speaker 1: The new source of the newspaper kind of thing yep.
Speaker 2: Contains an assortment of photographs, newspapers, clippings, and several hundred
Speaker 2: pages of typed interview notes, pixelated with age and compiled
Speaker 2: and blah blah blah blah now burieden said notes is
Speaker 2: the bombshell that Steve had been hoping for. The Los
Speaker 2: Angeles Police Department was focused on six suspects back in
Speaker 2: the day, back when this case was originally occurring in
Speaker 2: the forties, and George Hodell was one of those six.
Speaker 1: In the original file Wow, no way.
Speaker 2: Yes way now. Originally he gained attention from the police.
Speaker 2: In late nineteen forty nine, George's teenage daughter Tamar accused
Speaker 2: him of sexual abuse and impregnating her.
Speaker 1: Okay that his kid.
Speaker 2: Yep, his daughter.
Speaker 1: I hate that.
Speaker 2: The daughter gave birth to a wow to a daughter
Speaker 2: named Fauna, and her birth father was unknown.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Troubled Tomorrow gave up Fauna for adoption. Fauner later learned
Speaker 2: of her true origins and unfortunately she never really ever
Speaker 2: found out who her true father was and it's unknown
Speaker 2: to this day.
Speaker 1: Humh.
Speaker 2: Now, George Hodell was acquitted after a widely publicized trial.
Speaker 2: Two witnesses to the alleged abuse testified at the trial.
Speaker 2: A third recanted their earlier testimony and refused to come forward,
Speaker 2: with one theory being that Hodell threatened them into silence. Now,
Speaker 2: Tomar's testimony was perceived as contradictory and nothing more than
Speaker 2: attention seeking.
Speaker 1: Well, money can do a lot of things for.
Speaker 2: You too, that's true. So just to point this out,
Speaker 2: I believe his daughter Tomorrow was sixteen when she gave birth.
Speaker 1: Holy hat. Yes, So this guy is just pure evil?
Speaker 2: Yes really yes, if he is doing these things, he
Speaker 2: is fucking disgusting.
Speaker 1: Fuck this guy, which I also think it's so incredible
Speaker 1: that his son went to go and be a detective.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, definitely, because Okay, this I don't know if
Speaker 1: I should be saying this, but I feel like it's
Speaker 1: almost one or the other. When you have just like
Speaker 1: a terrible upbringing, I feel like you're either going to
Speaker 1: become a police officer or you're going to become a
Speaker 1: serial killer. Like it's like one or the other, almost,
Speaker 1: isn't it.
Speaker 2: I Mean I don't think it's always that.
Speaker 1: Now, but it's like you hear about that often. Yeah,
Speaker 1: either you're following their footsteps or you're doing the complate
Speaker 1: opposite to like save people.
Speaker 2: You're not wrong, but you're also not right. But you're
Speaker 2: not wrong.
Speaker 1: I'm not wrong because it's just it's probably a very
Speaker 1: small percentage of people.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's it's funny how it works out that way. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: not funny, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just from cases we've researched.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so now, also another piece of information that came
Speaker 2: up was at the time of the murder, there was
Speaker 2: a black car that had been seen around the scene
Speaker 2: of the crime by locals in the area, A car
Speaker 2: that matched the description of George Hodels jeez, yep, wow,
Speaker 2: So we have one more big bomb to drop. There
Speaker 2: was another major bomb with George.
Speaker 1: Yes, here, you feel like you dropped a lot.
Speaker 2: In those files that were recovered, there is a transcript
Speaker 2: from a period in nineteen fifty when the police were
Speaker 2: bugging George Hodell's home. Most of the transcript is dull.
Speaker 2: Hodell has sax, he beats his secretary apparently holy shit,
Speaker 2: talks about money problems. But on ninth, the nineteenth of
Speaker 2: February in nineteen fifty, there's a haunting exchange. Now I
Speaker 2: don't know specifically what this means, so I'm going to
Speaker 2: read it exactly what this line says. Okay, eight twenty
Speaker 2: five pm. Quote, woman screamed, woman screamed again. In brackets,
Speaker 2: it should be noted the woman not heard before the
Speaker 2: scream end quote. So there's a few different ways to
Speaker 2: interpret that. I'm interpreting it as they hear a woman's scream,
Speaker 2: and then they hear a woman scream again, and they
Speaker 2: never heard a woman's voice prior to That's what I
Speaker 2: interpret that as. Okay, Yeah, Now, later in that day,
Speaker 2: also in these transcripts, Hotel talks to a confidant and
Speaker 2: says this, realize there was nothing I could do. Put
Speaker 2: a pillow over her head and cover it with a blanket.
Speaker 2: Get a taxi expired twelve fifty nine. They thought there
Speaker 2: was something fishy anyway, now they have figured it out,
Speaker 2: killed her.
Speaker 1: Huh. Okay, But back to that woman's screaming thing, is
Speaker 1: that like he listening to like a recording or there's
Speaker 1: like someone in his house that he's hurting.
Speaker 2: I went there, well, I mean, coupled with this conversation here,
Speaker 2: to me, it sounds like there's someone he hurt, someone
Speaker 2: he killed.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Okay, Now the surveillance continues routinely, but for one telling moment.
Speaker 2: This is the last transcript that I have here. Quote
Speaker 2: supposing I did kill the black Dohlia, they couldn't prove it.
Speaker 2: Now they can't talk to my secretary anymore because she's dead.
Speaker 1: End quote because he killed her.
Speaker 2: Could have been the woman you heard scream.
Speaker 1: Jeez, how is he How did he not have to
Speaker 1: go to jail even after hearing like those transcripts.
Speaker 2: Because these transcripts cannot legally be taken into account. The
Speaker 2: Hodel household was illegally bugged.
Speaker 1: Well, then why ball they're bugging it?
Speaker 2: I know, right, the conversations that transcripts are effectively moot
Speaker 2: in the court of law. Unfortunately.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I get that, I understand that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So now all these pieces coming together over the
Speaker 2: years brought light to George Hodell's wicked past and potentially
Speaker 2: murderous tendencies as we have now realized. But before I
Speaker 2: move into the final part of this theory, I want
Speaker 2: to revisit a few things. The handwriting the picture on
Speaker 2: George's photo album. There are mixed reviews on both of those.
Speaker 2: Just remember this, just because I want to make sure
Speaker 2: I portray that, so that handwriting is inconclusive either way.
Speaker 2: George swears up and down. There are some professionals who
Speaker 2: say that it's not his writing. There are some professionals
Speaker 2: who say it is. It's inconclusive. Yeah, same with the photos.
Speaker 2: Inconclusive very well, maybe very well, may not. So just
Speaker 2: wanted to touch on that just to get that clear,
Speaker 2: so you can really soak in all the evidence that
Speaker 2: we've got here before we hit the final one. So
Speaker 2: that last part though, of the theory that we're about
Speaker 2: to talk about. Steve believes his father and his love
Speaker 2: for art and how he looked up to his friend
Speaker 2: man Ray could be the final clue. You see, man
Speaker 2: Ray has two pieces of art, in particular, the Leah
Speaker 2: Moore and the Minotaur I'm Moray, sorry, Leah Moray French
Speaker 2: for the Lovers, and it's a composite photography piece that
Speaker 2: depicts lips of man Ray's departed lover Lee Miller, floating
Speaker 2: in the sky above a new woman lying on her side.
Speaker 2: It's believed that the woman may be dreaming a nightmare
Speaker 2: or a Eurotic fantasy. But a cool little side note
Speaker 2: though on this is that the lips actually pictured in
Speaker 2: this piece were the inspiration for the logo and the
Speaker 2: rocky horror picture show Oh Wow, which is really cool,
Speaker 2: but also potentially the inspiration for the Black Dolly is twisted.
Speaker 1: Smile huh, which is this guy's friend.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it could be the Black Dahlia. Her body
Speaker 2: ended up being a twisted piece of art that George
Speaker 2: Hodell was drawing inspiration from Manray's work, just like the
Speaker 2: Smile and this painting or this photograph my apologies. He
Speaker 2: did a similar smile by slicing open the cheeks of
Speaker 2: Elizabeth shortsh Now and the Minotaur is a black and
Speaker 2: white photo of a nude woman's chest. She lays still,
Speaker 2: with the photo cropping her out at the waist, where
Speaker 2: she extends her arms in a relaxed fashion above her head,
Speaker 2: just like Elizabeth Short.
Speaker 1: Okay, but we're not saying that the photographer has anything
Speaker 1: to do with this. It's just George getting inspiration from
Speaker 1: his friend.
Speaker 2: Yes. Steve Hodell argues that it was his father, George's
Speaker 2: way of emulating his friend's art and surrealism, allowing him
Speaker 2: to build what Steve believes his father would refer to
Speaker 2: as a masterpiece, a crime so shocking and horrible it
Speaker 2: would endure and be immortalized through crime lore.
Speaker 1: H Wow.
Speaker 2: Now, Unfortunately, whatever George had done, or anyone else for
Speaker 2: that matter, because we don't conclusively know, the likelihood of
Speaker 2: the case of the Black Dahlia ever being solved is
Speaker 2: almost non Elizabeth has become an icon in her time,
Speaker 2: her tragic story and beauty overtaking the world of crime
Speaker 2: and mystery for what is sure to be years to come.
Speaker 2: And that is all we know. Wow, that is Elizabeth's
Speaker 2: short story, or the Tale of the Black Dahlia.
Speaker 1: Dang I want this to be solved. Hm, my brain's
Speaker 1: gore a mile minute.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like I said, there are a million different paths
Speaker 2: to dive down on this. There is information for days.
Speaker 2: If you guys dive in on this, you find some
Speaker 2: new information or something, please hit us up. That'd be awesome.
Speaker 2: And of course hit us up. Let us know what
Speaker 2: you think. Who do you think is the Black Doll Avenger?
Speaker 2: According to the letters anyways?
Speaker 1: Because they Oh, there's my books, movies and stuff like.
Speaker 2: Everything that you can watch, right, Yeah, multiple books, there
Speaker 2: is at least one recent movie starring Scarlett Johansson. There
Speaker 2: are documentaries, there's subreddits, there's forums. Oh, my god, for
Speaker 2: days for days. Well, look at Steve Hodell researching this
Speaker 2: on his father for years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so wow, interesting, well done, well done.
Speaker 2: So yeah. I I'm really conflicted with the Eizabeth short
Speaker 2: because I I want her to be remembered, but I
Speaker 2: also don't because it seems like that's just what George wanted,
Speaker 2: if it was George, if those theories are accurate, which
Speaker 2: it to me it seems like it is.
Speaker 1: It does seem very logical. It could be that one,
Speaker 1: doesn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fucked up regardless though.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so fucked up. Yeah, brutal.
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