WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Morning. The following podcast and Jean's grab content and material

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<v Speaker 1>intended for a mature audience.

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<v Speaker 2>Listener discretion is advised.

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<v Speaker 1>Happy Tuesday. What's up? Guys? Whoa?

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<v Speaker 2>Whoa?

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<v Speaker 1>Are you? Okay?

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<v Speaker 2>My balls just dropped? Sorry, shit, I don't know what

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<v Speaker 2>happened there.

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<v Speaker 1>That was interesting?

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<v Speaker 2>No kidding? Wow, Welcome to Wicked.

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<v Speaker 1>And Crimps, where it's ran by a how old am

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<v Speaker 1>I thirty three and a thirteen year old? Currently?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is a true crime podcast. What's up? Welcome

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<v Speaker 2>to the show.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, Wicked and Grim? Did you say that?

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<v Speaker 2>Did we say Wicked?

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<v Speaker 1>Ingram? I don't know? Wicked and Graham? Welcome.

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<v Speaker 2>This was one hell of an intro. So we're all

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<v Speaker 2>over the place. Sorry, this is Wicked and Graham, a

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<v Speaker 2>true crime podcast. My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, And yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you're listening to the show Wicked and Grim. I think

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<v Speaker 2>we said that like three times.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so now you really know what the hell you're like?

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<v Speaker 2>Percent But you're listening to part two today of the

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<v Speaker 2>Black Dahlia.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, you made this wait a whole week.

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<v Speaker 2>I did. And this was not an easy case to

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<v Speaker 2>research because, oh my god, the rabbit holes are ridiculous.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a lot to it.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, oh hell yeah. There are theories left, right and center.

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<v Speaker 2>There's subtle little details and nuances that you can go

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<v Speaker 2>off for hours on. It's it's crazy. There's movies, there's books,

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<v Speaker 2>there's documentaries, there's forums, there's websites, you name it. It's

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's a roller coaster.

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<v Speaker 1>Sounds fun but not fun.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was hell to search button. Man, it was.

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<v Speaker 2>It was fun to go into. So before we get

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<v Speaker 2>into it, though, what do we got to talk about today?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, for one, we're drinking very tasty hot chocolates because

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<v Speaker 1>well today we're recording this on a Monday, it's National

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<v Speaker 1>Hot Chocolate Day.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so happy National Hot Chocolate Day. We gotta get.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, if you're listening to this tomorrow, your day late.

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<v Speaker 1>But that's okay. You can still have a hot chocolate

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<v Speaker 1>you know what.

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<v Speaker 2>It might not be National Hot Chocolate Day, but every

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<v Speaker 2>day is hot chocolate Day.

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<v Speaker 1>I freaking love hot chocolate. I could drink it every day.

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<v Speaker 1>It's it's fucking good, so good, so good. It's like

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<v Speaker 1>your chocolate milk.

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<v Speaker 2>Almost okay for you, it's good, but nothing can beat

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<v Speaker 2>chocolate milk. I'm sorry.

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<v Speaker 1>So good.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, they they're pretty similar. I'll give them that.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like a warm hug and a cup.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well chocolate milk is like, no, that doesn't sound right.

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<v Speaker 2>I was gonna say an orgasm in a cup. That

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<v Speaker 2>does not sound right.

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<v Speaker 1>Ew yeah, that's wow. So you might have just ruined

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<v Speaker 1>chocolate for like everyone listening.

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<v Speaker 2>Impossible, so silky deliciousness?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh god? Okay, what else?

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<v Speaker 2>We got to thank patrons again because you guys are

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<v Speaker 2>continuing to support us and you're absolutely amazing. If you

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<v Speaker 2>want to support us, head over to Patreon you can

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<v Speaker 2>sign up. And we got to thank our people who

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<v Speaker 2>signed up this week, so we got to think. Of course,

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<v Speaker 2>we gotta think, hold on, my list is out here.

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<v Speaker 1>You need help, I need help?

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<v Speaker 2>Hold on?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh there we go.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I got it. Where do we leave off?

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<v Speaker 2>We left off of.

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<v Speaker 1>Caitlyn last time, right, Caitlin Black?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So after Caitlin, Laurie Brennan signed up and then

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<v Speaker 2>we got and I'm sorry if I pronounced your last

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<v Speaker 2>name wrong. Nicole's like, you can do it because I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not going to try to pronounce your name, so she's

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<v Speaker 2>leaving it to me. So I'm sorry if I butcher,

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<v Speaker 2>but Lauri Egan or I don't know, but Laura, Laura,

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<v Speaker 2>you're awesome, Yes, one hundred percent. You're wicked us wicked

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<v Speaker 2>and desiree Salarin. I hope I said your last name too.

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<v Speaker 2>Either way, if I said your name's wrong or right,

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<v Speaker 2>I am so sorry. But you guys are wicked awesome.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for supporting us.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you. We can't thank you enough, really we can't.

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<v Speaker 2>But we can say your name wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>We can do that in like wicked and grim style.

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<v Speaker 2>Yep, while drinking hot chocolate.

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<v Speaker 1>There you go.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, thank you very much for signing up for

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<v Speaker 2>patron and being awesome.

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<v Speaker 1>And then the other thing we have to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>is how probably an accumulating accumulation of twenty minutes today

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<v Speaker 1>I have talked about and different times, how sore your

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<v Speaker 1>arms are.

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<v Speaker 2>My arms are so sore, like so sore. Okay, So

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<v Speaker 2>story like with pre covid, brought it up. Pre covid,

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<v Speaker 2>I was starting to go to the gym like lots was.

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<v Speaker 2>I ripped.

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<v Speaker 1>No, but we were both doing a really good action.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're starting getting pretty good shape. Yeah, I was

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<v Speaker 2>almost at two hundred pounds. I was I think two

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<v Speaker 2>nine at my lowest, and currently I am at my

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<v Speaker 2>all time heaviest at two hundred and thirty eight pounds.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's not fun. So I got to go back

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<v Speaker 2>to the gym. And I went back to the gym

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<v Speaker 2>for the first time the other day. I thought I

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<v Speaker 2>did a light workout.

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<v Speaker 1>You did not. Clearly, turns out my arms are dead.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't even straighten them. My biceps are so seized

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<v Speaker 2>up there you're just flexed at I'm permaflexed right now,

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<v Speaker 2>like in a relaxed state. My biceps are solid and

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<v Speaker 2>flex they are so seized up it's it hurts. I love.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just like such a guy thing too, that you're

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<v Speaker 1>just like totally okay with saying how much you weigh,

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<v Speaker 1>because I don't think I would ever just be like casually,

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<v Speaker 1>this is how much I used to weigh, this is

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<v Speaker 1>how much I weigh now, like that's like thirty pounds more.

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<v Speaker 1>Holy shit.

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<v Speaker 2>I personally don't think people should be ashamed.

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<v Speaker 1>I know they shouldn't, but it's just it is like,

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like guys and girls are quite different with

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<v Speaker 1>how open they are. I definitely understand to discuss that, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, maybe maybe me being able to discuss my highest

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<v Speaker 2>weight ever is going to give someone else's ability to

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<v Speaker 2>maybe not feel so self conscious about them with their

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<v Speaker 2>highest weight.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm definitely at my highest weight right now too, which

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<v Speaker 1>is kind of sad.

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<v Speaker 2>Not going to divulge it though, No, no.

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<v Speaker 1>Don't source me.

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't forcing you. I was just asking what your

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<v Speaker 2>intentions were.

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<v Speaker 1>But I also kind of don't really want to be

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<v Speaker 1>like fixated on that number like I had before, and

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<v Speaker 1>more so just developing a healthy lifestyle where I can

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<v Speaker 1>I can like maintain it down the road and it's

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<v Speaker 1>not just like, oh, for one month, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>like eat really healthy. In the next month, I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 1>eat chick Chico Chicken. Off fucking mind.

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<v Speaker 2>I fucking love Chico Chicken.

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<v Speaker 1>We love Chico Chicken. But is that I wonder if

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<v Speaker 1>that's in the States too.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, I'm pretty sure it is.

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<v Speaker 1>It probably is. But yeah, so that's kind of my

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<v Speaker 1>goal and just like feel like I can go maybe

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<v Speaker 1>up a flight of stairs without being winded. That would

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<v Speaker 1>be my ideal being healthy.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. See, my goal is I want to drop down

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<v Speaker 2>to two hundred pounds, not because I think I'll be

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<v Speaker 2>healthiest there, but because I want to see the change

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<v Speaker 2>in my body too, dropping to two hundred pounds and

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<v Speaker 2>then from there, I want to understand, Okay, how can

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<v Speaker 2>I make myself my healthiest? Do I need to gain

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<v Speaker 2>a bit more weight? Can I be a little more

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<v Speaker 2>relaxed on myself? So I want to be able to

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<v Speaker 2>have a spot where I can start and then adjust accordingly.

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<v Speaker 1>Because you're like six feet, right, six, So I feel

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<v Speaker 1>like for a six foot dude, being like two hundred

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<v Speaker 1>pounds or over whatever, I don't feel like is crazy.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh no, definitely not even Like two thirty two forty

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<v Speaker 2>is fairly normal for a dude my size. But I

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<v Speaker 2>just want.

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<v Speaker 1>To I want to get to that healthy.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't feel healthy, not whatsoever. Yeah, so I got

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<v Speaker 2>to get healthy, and I think a reset to two

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<v Speaker 2>hundred pounds is a good way of doing it because

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<v Speaker 2>then I can adjust accordingly. Do you gain weight or not?

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<v Speaker 1>Forty pound goal?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, let's do it. That's awesome. Do it.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think I'm going to stay at two hundred

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<v Speaker 2>because I think that's too little. For the record, I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's way too little. But I want to get

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<v Speaker 2>there just so I ease my mind to be like, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>now I can go to work.

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<v Speaker 1>I must have to do cardio then like wait, say

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<v Speaker 1>oh yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>But I gotta get my muscles back to being used

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<v Speaker 2>to doing things.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to squeeze them so bad.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe when I am not hurting.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, like I'm right now, I want to squeeze no

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<v Speaker 1>hurting and just listening to squeal a.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to the Torture Podcast where my co host and

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<v Speaker 2>wife tortures me.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my gosh, I don't.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's get back to the show.

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<v Speaker 1>Though, Yeah, let's do. It's okay because you left us off. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>if I'm remembering correctly here, because I have not re

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<v Speaker 1>listened to the episode, which I wanted to do, but

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't where we were going to start be going

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<v Speaker 1>over theories and such, right, correct, which I'm kind of excited.

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<v Speaker 2>So we did go over one theory in the last episode,

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<v Speaker 2>which I'm just opening last episode's notes to remember. Said

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<v Speaker 2>dude's name, Robert Redmanly. That's who it was, so went

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<v Speaker 2>over that theory. He was the one who drove Elizabeth

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<v Speaker 2>back to la and was one of the last people

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<v Speaker 2>to see her alive at the hotel. He dropped her.

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<v Speaker 1>Basically Yeah, So.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to do a bit of a recap on

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<v Speaker 2>the whole case of Elizabeth here, so you can get

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<v Speaker 2>your mind all freshened up. So black Dolly apart, two

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<v Speaker 2>buckle up.

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<v Speaker 1>So.

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<v Speaker 2>In nineteen forty seven, Elizabeth was taken by someone, possibly

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<v Speaker 2>near the Baltimore Hotel in Los Angeles, kept for several

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<v Speaker 2>days under horrific savage conditions, beaten, tortured, killed, and then

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<v Speaker 2>her body desecrated and dumped in an empty lot. She

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<v Speaker 2>was found nude, drained of her blood, cut in half

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<v Speaker 2>at the waist, with three inch cuts from her the

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<v Speaker 2>corner of her mouth up towards her ear, forcing a

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<v Speaker 2>horrific smile on her cold face. There were letters sent

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<v Speaker 2>to the police and media from the alleged killer, taunting

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<v Speaker 2>them and even sending them personal effects from Elizabeth. But

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<v Speaker 2>even with over one hundred suspects, police still couldn't find

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<v Speaker 2>her killer, and the case is unsolved to this day.

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<v Speaker 2>Everyone trying to understand what happened to Elizabeth Short.

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<v Speaker 1>That's just brutal. Yeah, it's just brutal.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh it is. Now there are some reports and stories

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<v Speaker 2>out there that spend the whole tale of a young

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<v Speaker 2>woman who is desperate for money while walking among the

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<v Speaker 2>flashing Hollywood lights, desperate to make an income while she

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<v Speaker 2>tried to keep her dream of becoming a film star

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<v Speaker 2>live by turning into a sex worker, a job she

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<v Speaker 2>hated but simply had to do. The reports continued to

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<v Speaker 2>paint Elizabeth as a man hating wannaby actress who would

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<v Speaker 2>get caught up in party scenes being involved in unsavory people.

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<v Speaker 2>And let's just say, we're about to dive into some

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<v Speaker 2>of the most popular and convincing theories surrounding Elizabeth's short

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<v Speaker 2>aka to Black Dahlia, and we're going to divault some

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<v Speaker 2>of this information whether it's true or false.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, you know, I just hate this so that it's

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<v Speaker 1>not solved. I just hate unsolved cases.

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<v Speaker 2>I personally like unsolved cases, but there are some I dislike.

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<v Speaker 2>I would really really love if this was solved.

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<v Speaker 1>Mm hmm. I mean it's it's fun in the sense

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<v Speaker 1>we're not fun, but like brain fun, I guess you

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<v Speaker 1>could say, in the sense where you're like, oh my gosh,

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<v Speaker 1>like what could it be, and you're like trying to

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<v Speaker 1>think it through and going over all the theories and

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<v Speaker 1>like trying to solve it in your brain and stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>But then I don't know just that it actually isn't

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<v Speaker 1>solved as so sad. But there's like solf cases out

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<v Speaker 1>there too that are wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's true. That's very true, and like years later

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<v Speaker 2>they've been proven wrong and then like they're like, oh shit,

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<v Speaker 2>we got the wrong guy.

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<v Speaker 1>So I prefer an unsolved versus something that's solved but wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>That's true. So anyways, we're going to start this off

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<v Speaker 2>by talking about a person by the name of Leslie

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<v Speaker 2>Dylan Okay okay so. Leslie was a twenty seven year

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<v Speaker 2>old bell hop and was an aspiring writer and former

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<v Speaker 2>mortician's assistant who became a suspect when he began writing

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<v Speaker 2>to Lost Angeles the Los Angeles Police Department psychiatrist doctor J.

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<v Speaker 2>Paul De River or d River. I think it's two

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<v Speaker 2>words d River. I'll go with that sounds better than

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<v Speaker 2>it does. Sounds like I'm talking with a speech impediment

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<v Speaker 2>over by de River. So Dee River in October of

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen forty eight. Now, Leslie was living in Florida at

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<v Speaker 2>the time of his correspondence with Dee River, but had

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<v Speaker 2>formerly lived in Los Angeles. He read a story about

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<v Speaker 2>the case of the Black Dahlia in a true detective

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<v Speaker 2>style magazine in which Dee River was quoted and wrote

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<v Speaker 2>to Dee River regarding his theories of the case. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>he offered up one of his friends, Jeff Connors, as

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<v Speaker 2>a likely suspect. Over the course of their correspondence, d

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<v Speaker 2>River began to believe that Connors did not actually exist

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<v Speaker 2>and that Leslie had committed the murder himself.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, could you imagine that that's the case.

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<v Speaker 2>It's definitely not, because they always say, like the perpetrator

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<v Speaker 2>returns to the scene of the crime. That's very common.

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<v Speaker 2>So this is definitely a way of him like staying

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<v Speaker 2>in touch with the case kind of proverbally proverbal perfect

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<v Speaker 2>perverbally perverb I can't say the word, but basically reaching

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<v Speaker 2>out and still keeping in touch with the case. So

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<v Speaker 2>he's making those correspondents and kind of weasling his way

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<v Speaker 2>back in it almost.

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<v Speaker 1>Or going to their funerals and stuff. I've heard of that.

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<v Speaker 2>Too, exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Just horrific.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no kidding, no, don't do that. If you're in

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<v Speaker 2>like Hollywood movie lots of time, you're always the person

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<v Speaker 2>in the back with a mysterious black umbrella in the suit,

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<v Speaker 2>standing under a tree while it's pouring rain. People are like,

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<v Speaker 2>who's that guy? I don't know?

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<v Speaker 1>And then they just disappear.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and when you go look back, they're gone, yep,

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of shit.

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<v Speaker 1>Hate that.

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<v Speaker 2>Fuck those people. That's all I gotta say. But please

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<v Speaker 2>please do that at my funeral. Someone do that when

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<v Speaker 2>I pass away. Stand off in a distance and be

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<v Speaker 2>a total creeper. Yes, clad in black, whether it's sunny

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<v Speaker 2>or raining, bring an umbrella, whether it's overcast, whether it's winter, spring,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't care. Black umbrella is a must.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, oh god.

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<v Speaker 2>Even better if you are like a super sad woman

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<v Speaker 2>all black lace and everything and you're like crying, because

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00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:12.000
<v Speaker 2>then it's like, oh shit, did Ben have like a

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00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:14.039
<v Speaker 2>second family or something? What the fuck is this? And

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00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:15.320
<v Speaker 2>it really gets people.

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<v Speaker 1>Guessing, wow, I don't well, I'm glad that I know

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00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:23.200
<v Speaker 1>this ahead of her. I guess wow.

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<v Speaker 2>Just to really get people questioning, oh.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you just want to fuck with everyone from the grave?

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<v Speaker 2>Eh it? Yeah? One lass ura right there you go.

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<v Speaker 2>Well anyways, In December of nineteen forty eight, Dylan agreed

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<v Speaker 2>to meet with de Rivers. Sorry, Leslie, Dylan Leslie agreed

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<v Speaker 2>to meet with Dee Rivers and was given the choice

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<v Speaker 2>of one of three cities, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Los Angeles,

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<v Speaker 2>Los Angeles Phoenix, Arizona, or Los Angeles Nevada. There we

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<v Speaker 2>go Los Angeles, Phoenix, Arizona, or Los Angeles, Nevada. That

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<v Speaker 2>took me really long time to get it because this

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<v Speaker 2>is the way I wrote it. It was just really weird.

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<v Speaker 2>But anyways, Leslie expressed reservations about Los Angeles and chose

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<v Speaker 2>Las Vegas instead. So Dee River and undercover LAPD's officer,

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<v Speaker 2>Sergeant John JJ O'Mara of the Los Angeles Police Department,

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<v Speaker 2>who served under already said he was LAPD double information

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<v Speaker 2>for you. Anyways, he served as an undercover. He served

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<v Speaker 2>undercover as his chauffeur and bodyguard smart E right. Also

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<v Speaker 2>Lieutenant William joined along as well as being undercover as well.

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<v Speaker 2>So we had basically two chauffeurs slash bodyguards go along

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<v Speaker 2>with him, which were undercover cops.

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<v Speaker 1>And was this dude had the reputation that he would

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<v Speaker 1>need a body bodyguard.

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<v Speaker 2>So I don't know, but I mean he is. He's

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<v Speaker 2>in correlation with the LAPD. So it's like you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we're just going to send you some drivers or chauffeur

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<v Speaker 2>or whatever.

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<v Speaker 1>Rate.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a business trip, business expense sort of thing. Yeah,

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00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:05.720
<v Speaker 2>so that's kind of what I took it as. Anyways,

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<v Speaker 2>So anyways, the two police officers met Dee River at

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00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:14.600
<v Speaker 2>his home and drove to meet with Leslie. Now de

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00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:18.399
<v Speaker 2>River and undercover LPED officers met Leslie in Las Vegas

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<v Speaker 2>for a couple of days, and then they proceeded to

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00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:24.480
<v Speaker 2>drive back to California. Once there, Leslie and d River

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00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:28.320
<v Speaker 2>traveled to San Francisco to look for their suspect, Jeff Connor,

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00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:35.039
<v Speaker 2>who Leslie claimed was involved. However, they were unsuccessful in

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<v Speaker 2>searching or in finding this individually.

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<v Speaker 1>Didn't exist. Right, Well, we'll get to that.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll get to that. Okay, So you're thinking he does

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<v Speaker 2>not exist, that's what your your thought is.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, Sure, I don't know if I have enough information

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00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:53.360
<v Speaker 1>to say say for sure, but I'm going to go

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<v Speaker 1>with that.

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<v Speaker 2>Well that's a speculation of authorities currently.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, I'm going to go with that.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I'm going to tell you at this point in time,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to tell you what I know, but

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<v Speaker 2>while researching, at this point in time, I agree.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, Okay, so that means that's wrong. But let's go.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just not saying it's

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00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:12.440
<v Speaker 2>right either. It could be either.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Now. During the time they spent together, Leslie apparently offered

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<v Speaker 2>up intimate details about the crime and talked very disturbingly

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<v Speaker 2>over certain things, one of which being a conversation about

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<v Speaker 2>Elizabeth Short and why her body would be cut in half.

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00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:32.799
<v Speaker 2>Sergeant O'Mara said that there was talk when discussing Elizabeth's body,

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<v Speaker 2>the incision and the cut through the body. Specifically, Yeah, Leslie,

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<v Speaker 2>according to Sergeant O'Mara, said, he was He said this,

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<v Speaker 2>This is a quote directly from Leslie. The person would

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<v Speaker 2>want to see how far his penis went into the person.

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<v Speaker 1>What.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so that's his theory on why she was cut

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<v Speaker 2>in half.

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<v Speaker 1>Mother of god, I was not expecting that.

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<v Speaker 2>Neither was I. That is fucked up.

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<v Speaker 1>I hate that. Yeah, Like that is disturbing.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, that is beyond disturbing.

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<v Speaker 1>That is fact, one of the most horrend disturbing things

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<v Speaker 1>I think I've ever heard.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, so we went there sleep with that information tonight.

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00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:17.839
<v Speaker 1>Wow, Holy shit, you good. This is why Monday nights,

378
00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:19.000
<v Speaker 1>I never sleep well.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, specifically because of this ship that gets.

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<v Speaker 1>In my brain and then I have to go to bed.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the fact that there's people out there with that

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<v Speaker 2>sort of mentality is so fucked up.

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00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:33.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I don't think. I don't even think I could

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<v Speaker 1>ever go there.

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00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:38.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, the fact that executing it is far, like it's

386
00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:40.720
<v Speaker 2>of course the farthest you can go. But even just

387
00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:46.279
<v Speaker 2>thinking it is bad enough. Yeah, like thinking like, oh,

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00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:47.400
<v Speaker 2>someone would totally do that.

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00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:50.319
<v Speaker 1>They can't even go there. It just doesn't go there.

390
00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:53.359
<v Speaker 2>Yet me either, I was like, what they fucking excuse

391
00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:54.480
<v Speaker 2>me when I read that?

392
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<v Speaker 1>Holy shit, I hate it. So I don't like this

393
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<v Speaker 1>person at all, Like, no dom with them.

394
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:01.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I feel you.

395
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:02.200
<v Speaker 1>Now.

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00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:04.799
<v Speaker 2>After arriving in LA and taking Leslie to the location

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00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:08.680
<v Speaker 2>where Elizabeth's bondy was found, Leslie was visibly distressed and

398
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:12.400
<v Speaker 2>potentially even began to realize he himself was a suspect.

399
00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:16.160
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't long before Leslie was actually taken into custody

400
00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:19.640
<v Speaker 2>and booked as a suspect on January tenth, nineteen forty nine,

401
00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:23.319
<v Speaker 2>at the Highland Park Station. Now police soon discovered that

402
00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:30.000
<v Speaker 2>Leslie's friend, Jeff Connors did exist, did indeed exist? His

403
00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:34.759
<v Speaker 2>real name was Artie Lane. Lane had lived in Los

404
00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:37.319
<v Speaker 2>Angeles at the time of the murder and was employed

405
00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:41.240
<v Speaker 2>as a maintenance man by Columbia Studios, a favorite hangout

406
00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:47.680
<v Speaker 2>of Elizabeth's. Oh so there is potential tie there, Okay. Now,

407
00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:50.720
<v Speaker 2>Dee River made recordings of his interviews with Leslie Dylon

408
00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:54.480
<v Speaker 2>where he garan sorry, where he questioned his suspect about

409
00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:57.319
<v Speaker 2>the detail of Elizabeth Shorts murders. And I actually have

410
00:19:57.640 --> 00:19:59.960
<v Speaker 2>a little bit of their conversation, So I'm going to

411
00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:02.960
<v Speaker 2>back and forth here a little bit. So de River said,

412
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:05.759
<v Speaker 2>what do you think the killer did with the hair

413
00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:09.319
<v Speaker 2>shaved off the private parts of the body of Elizabeth Short?

414
00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:13.839
<v Speaker 2>Because her pubic care had been trimmed at least. I

415
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:15.240
<v Speaker 2>don't know if it was fully shaved, but it was

416
00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:20.720
<v Speaker 2>at least trimmed, forcefully trimmed, like by the killer sort

417
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:20.960
<v Speaker 2>of thing.

418
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:22.680
<v Speaker 1>But it wasn't all right.

419
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:24.119
<v Speaker 2>I don't believe it was fully.

420
00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:25.599
<v Speaker 1>Because I feel like I saw a picture and there

421
00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:26.839
<v Speaker 1>was that some there.

422
00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:29.480
<v Speaker 2>The picture is also very deceiving because she had a

423
00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:31.319
<v Speaker 2>lot of cuts in that area too.

424
00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:35.279
<v Speaker 1>Oh okay, And I definitely like zoom in to look.

425
00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:38.119
<v Speaker 1>So yes, okay, okay.

426
00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:41.839
<v Speaker 2>So Dylan's response was, I think the killer such as

427
00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:43.920
<v Speaker 2>he was would probably have thrown the hair in the

428
00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:47.640
<v Speaker 2>toilet and flush it. Dee River, what do you think

429
00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:51.559
<v Speaker 2>a killer such as he would want would do with

430
00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:53.759
<v Speaker 2>a piece of flesh with a tattoo on it that

431
00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:56.039
<v Speaker 2>he cut off her thigh? This was a new piece

432
00:20:56.079 --> 00:20:59.400
<v Speaker 2>of information that I did not find until running across this. Okay,

433
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:02.119
<v Speaker 2>Apparently she had a small tattoo. I don't know of what,

434
00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:05.519
<v Speaker 2>but it was removed and cut from her body as well.

435
00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:08.319
<v Speaker 1>Interesting, that's something a killer would keep us, like a trophy.

436
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:14.359
<v Speaker 2>Definitely. Yeah, So Dylan responded, well, I think you would

437
00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:16.640
<v Speaker 2>probably have thrown that down the toilet and flushed it.

438
00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:19.759
<v Speaker 1>No, that's a keeper.

439
00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:23.240
<v Speaker 2>I think so too. That's a trophy, like you say.

440
00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:24.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

441
00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:28.519
<v Speaker 2>Now, On another recording of interview with them, Dee River asked,

442
00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:33.599
<v Speaker 2>are you the one who murdered Elizabeth Short? Dylan responded,

443
00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:37.640
<v Speaker 2>doctor d River, the trouble with this is that you

444
00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:40.920
<v Speaker 2>first reached your own conclusion about the case, and then

445
00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:43.839
<v Speaker 2>you try dig up things to prove that your conclusions

446
00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:47.200
<v Speaker 2>are correct. De River, what do you think I am

447
00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:49.880
<v Speaker 2>a child? What do you mean by talking to me

448
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:53.519
<v Speaker 2>that way. I'm a person who has been around. That's

449
00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:57.039
<v Speaker 2>all I could find of said recording and the transcription

450
00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:03.000
<v Speaker 2>that came from it. Now, this seems weird to me,

451
00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:06.400
<v Speaker 2>just saying because I agree with you. Any person in

452
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:09.039
<v Speaker 2>the right mind seeing that a killer carved out a

453
00:22:09.079 --> 00:22:12.799
<v Speaker 2>tattoo from a person would obviously say that's a trophy.

454
00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:17.799
<v Speaker 2>They're keeping that shit. So he's almost looking guilty to

455
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:19.039
<v Speaker 2>me saying the fact, Oh, he just threw it in

456
00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:20.759
<v Speaker 2>the toilet, just like everything else. I don't know.

457
00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:23.039
<v Speaker 1>I find this whole thing super odd with this guy.

458
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:27.079
<v Speaker 1>But then I also think that if he actually did

459
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:29.920
<v Speaker 1>do something, I don't know if he'd be going this far. Like,

460
00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:32.119
<v Speaker 1>I just think he's almost kind of just like really odd.

461
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:34.960
<v Speaker 2>He was quite the odd individual, especially they found that

462
00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:36.799
<v Speaker 2>out when they were driving and stuff. He was really

463
00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:38.279
<v Speaker 2>weird because.

464
00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:40.720
<v Speaker 1>I think if he actually did this, I can't see

465
00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:43.319
<v Speaker 1>that he would be like going this far because he's

466
00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:45.359
<v Speaker 1>just like incriminating himself so much.

467
00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:52.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So his friend that he says was responsible, Jeff Connors,

468
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:55.200
<v Speaker 2>he was not able to be tied to the crime.

469
00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:59.240
<v Speaker 2>And now, also, contrary to popular belief and many other sources,

470
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:03.400
<v Speaker 2>Leslie could not be conclusively placed in San Francisco, where

471
00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:05.079
<v Speaker 2>he claimed to be at the time of the murders.

472
00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:10.279
<v Speaker 2>He also couldn't be conclusively placed in la where Elizabeth

473
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:13.160
<v Speaker 2>was murdered. In fact, police never could account for his

474
00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:17.160
<v Speaker 2>whereabouts between January ninth and January fifteenth in nineteen forty seven,

475
00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:19.720
<v Speaker 2>the same time she disappeared and was tortured and murdered.

476
00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:25.559
<v Speaker 1>Hmmm, interesting, I just still don't think it's him, though, No,

477
00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:28.240
<v Speaker 1>why don't you think it's him? Well, because I already

478
00:23:28.279 --> 00:23:29.279
<v Speaker 1>said I just don't think.

479
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:31.640
<v Speaker 2>Do you just think he wouldn't go this far?

480
00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:35.680
<v Speaker 1>Because I can understand sometimes like okay, like sending letters, phoning,

481
00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:38.960
<v Speaker 1>but I don't think you'd go to this extent where he's, like,

482
00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:43.920
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, traveling with them, and it just too far.

483
00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:46.400
<v Speaker 1>I just think it's just too far. That's just not smart.

484
00:23:46.599 --> 00:23:49.960
<v Speaker 2>Now you have a point, now, Leslie would have was

485
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:52.720
<v Speaker 2>eventually released due to a lack of evidence, and he

486
00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:55.640
<v Speaker 2>later filed a one hundred thousand dollars lawsuit against the

487
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:58.680
<v Speaker 2>city of Los Angeles, Oh Boy, but dropped the lawsuit

488
00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:01.279
<v Speaker 2>after it emerged that he was wanted by Santa Monica

489
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:04.960
<v Speaker 2>Police for robbery. Okay, so he kind of fucked himself

490
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:05.599
<v Speaker 2>over there with that.

491
00:24:05.559 --> 00:24:08.240
<v Speaker 1>But the whole thing is just really weird.

492
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:10.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

493
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:10.400
<v Speaker 1>Now.

494
00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:14.599
<v Speaker 2>In two thousand and four, Dee River's daughter Jackie Daniel,

495
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:17.440
<v Speaker 2>published a book called the Curse of the Black Dahlia,

496
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:20.200
<v Speaker 2>in which she expressed her belief that her father had

497
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:23.400
<v Speaker 2>been unfairly ignorant in seeking out Leslie as a suspect

498
00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:26.880
<v Speaker 2>in Elizabeth's case. So she believes her dad was actually

499
00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:30.839
<v Speaker 2>wrong and was basically just prejudiced towards Leslie in this particular,

500
00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:35.039
<v Speaker 2>just trying to make the glove fit. I said the word,

501
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:35.799
<v Speaker 2>I said proverbial.

502
00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:40.200
<v Speaker 1>Oh there you go, yes, win, Yeah, that made me happy. Sorry,

503
00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:43.559
<v Speaker 1>she thinks that it was Leslie or wasn't Leslie.

504
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:46.599
<v Speaker 2>Sorry she thinks it was not. I mind you. I

505
00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:48.759
<v Speaker 2>didn't read this book yet, so I didn't go into detail.

506
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:50.640
<v Speaker 2>I did way too much reading on other things to

507
00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:53.799
<v Speaker 2>get into books. There's too many books, fair, god knows what.

508
00:24:54.920 --> 00:24:57.599
<v Speaker 2>So I don't know for sure if she thinks it

509
00:24:57.680 --> 00:24:59.880
<v Speaker 2>was Leslie or not, but I do know that she

510
00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:02.839
<v Speaker 2>she thinks it was unfair of her father to pursue

511
00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:05.440
<v Speaker 2>Leslie so much. And thinks it was ignorant of him

512
00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:06.359
<v Speaker 2>to do. So.

513
00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:10.200
<v Speaker 1>Wow, I wonder how their father daughter relationships going.

514
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:15.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't know. I would imagine that he's actually well,

515
00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:17.039
<v Speaker 2>he might not even be alive anymore.

516
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:19.039
<v Speaker 1>So, I know what that is, such a thing to

517
00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:21.519
<v Speaker 1>put in a book published like that.

518
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:29.079
<v Speaker 2>Well, there's no, that's not the only father child's accusations

519
00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:29.599
<v Speaker 2>within this.

520
00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:32.480
<v Speaker 1>Case, really really okay.

521
00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:34.319
<v Speaker 2>The most popular one we're going to talk about at

522
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:37.599
<v Speaker 2>the end here is a crazy one, and that's a

523
00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:40.279
<v Speaker 2>son accusing his father. But before that, we got to

524
00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:44.960
<v Speaker 2>talk about another individual here. George Knowlton, now Janie Knowlton,

525
00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:47.799
<v Speaker 2>now sixty seven, was ten years old and living in

526
00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:50.640
<v Speaker 2>Westminster when the nude body of Elizabeth was found. This

527
00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:53.920
<v Speaker 2>is also I just realized. I just clicked in, yeah,

528
00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:54.960
<v Speaker 2>that it's a daughter father.

529
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:57.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I was just like, okay, yep.

530
00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:01.920
<v Speaker 2>Now, more than forty years later, she inserted herself into

531
00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:05.400
<v Speaker 2>one of the city's most sensational and gruesome unsolved murders ever,

532
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:09.480
<v Speaker 2>the Black Dahlia. She said, Oh, I just lost my spot.

533
00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:14.359
<v Speaker 2>She said, horrific, horrifying. Long repressed memories had convinced her

534
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:18.000
<v Speaker 2>that her father had been the murder and the one

535
00:26:18.039 --> 00:26:21.480
<v Speaker 2>who caused all this. Now, there's little reliable information that

536
00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:25.559
<v Speaker 2>is available on George Nolton except that he lived in

537
00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:27.279
<v Speaker 2>the Los Angeles area at the time of the Black

538
00:26:27.319 --> 00:26:30.400
<v Speaker 2>Dahlia murder and he died in an automobile accident in

539
00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:33.680
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty two. The rest comes from Janis and her family.

540
00:26:34.279 --> 00:26:38.160
<v Speaker 2>Janis was previously a professional singer and public relations firm

541
00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:42.400
<v Speaker 2>owner who lived in Anaheim Hills. Janis claims she witnessed

542
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:46.119
<v Speaker 2>her rage filled father beat Elizabeth to death with a

543
00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:49.519
<v Speaker 2>claw hammer in the detached grudge of the family home

544
00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:53.319
<v Speaker 2>in Westminster. Okay, that would be one hell of a

545
00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:54.160
<v Speaker 2>fucking thing to see.

546
00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:57.200
<v Speaker 1>Well, no shit, I mean, and you would definitely probably

547
00:26:57.240 --> 00:26:57.799
<v Speaker 1>suppress that.

548
00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:01.839
<v Speaker 2>Yep. Her claims of the horrific murder are based largely

549
00:27:01.880 --> 00:27:07.119
<v Speaker 2>on recovered memories that surface during therapy for depression after

550
00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:13.720
<v Speaker 2>a hysterectomy. So, huh, these memories that she had repressed

551
00:27:13.960 --> 00:27:19.079
<v Speaker 2>came up. I don't know. I'm really conflicted about that.

552
00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:23.680
<v Speaker 2>I understand people repressing memories, but that seems like something

553
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:27.279
<v Speaker 2>like it would scar you. I just don't know how

554
00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:28.400
<v Speaker 2>you could forget that.

555
00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:34.359
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I have heard like people suppressed pretty graphic

556
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:37.519
<v Speaker 1>groupsome things. But then also it's like, would that just

557
00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:41.160
<v Speaker 1>come up in like a therapy counseling session or would

558
00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:43.319
<v Speaker 1>it almost have to be like a hypnosis.

559
00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:45.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, hypnotherapy. I don't know. I couldn't find if because

560
00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:49.000
<v Speaker 2>I looked in to see if it was a hypnotherapy thing, yeah,

561
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:50.640
<v Speaker 2>and I couldn't find anything on that.

562
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:55.680
<v Speaker 1>Huh. So, I mean I've had some counseling sessions though,

563
00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:59.039
<v Speaker 1>where it's like you recall things, but it's nothing like that.

564
00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:01.640
<v Speaker 1>I like, really very deep, I think, right, but I

565
00:28:01.640 --> 00:28:03.359
<v Speaker 1>don't even know if I have anything that I buried

566
00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:04.359
<v Speaker 1>real deep inside.

567
00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:07.640
<v Speaker 2>But until next session when you bring that shit up

568
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:10.279
<v Speaker 2>that you've been repressing, you never know.

569
00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:13.480
<v Speaker 1>You never know. Yeah.

570
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:16.279
<v Speaker 2>Now, based on these recovered memories, though, Jen has published

571
00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:20.039
<v Speaker 2>a book called Daddy Was the Black Dahlia Killer.

572
00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:21.160
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

573
00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:24.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, with a veteran crime writer Michael Newton in nineteen

574
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:25.480
<v Speaker 2>ninety five.

575
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:28.119
<v Speaker 1>I just feel like that if that would just be

576
00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:30.319
<v Speaker 1>things that I don't know, would you want to be

577
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:32.759
<v Speaker 1>like at the time of the book going out, the

578
00:28:32.839 --> 00:28:36.000
<v Speaker 1>dad was dead dead right, Yes, Like that just seems

579
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:38.880
<v Speaker 1>like a terrible thing to be putting out there. Like

580
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:41.799
<v Speaker 1>when your dad is dead and can't talk to him

581
00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:45.920
<v Speaker 1>about it and I don't know. Okay, okay, okay, okay,

582
00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:46.920
<v Speaker 1>you good, I'm good.

583
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:47.599
<v Speaker 2>You sure?

584
00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:49.880
<v Speaker 1>Yep, that's summer two, okay.

585
00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:52.799
<v Speaker 2>Now. In the book, she alleged that her father had

586
00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:54.720
<v Speaker 2>been having an affair with Elizabeth and that she was

587
00:28:54.759 --> 00:28:57.480
<v Speaker 2>staying in a makeshift bedroom in the garage, where she

588
00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:02.880
<v Speaker 2>suffered a miscarriage. The claim continues that George murdered Elizabeth

589
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:06.599
<v Speaker 2>in the garage and bisected her in the sink, then

590
00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:10.119
<v Speaker 2>forced his then ten year old daughter Janis to accompany

591
00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:13.920
<v Speaker 2>him when he disposed of the body. Seems a little

592
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:15.279
<v Speaker 2>bit far fetched with me. Why would he force his

593
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:17.519
<v Speaker 2>daughters to do that? That's just weird. Not saying people

594
00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:20.400
<v Speaker 2>don't do that, they fucking do, which is weird as

595
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:22.960
<v Speaker 2>fuck to start with. But I just trying to get

596
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:24.480
<v Speaker 2>away with murder. Why would you include more?

597
00:29:24.920 --> 00:29:27.200
<v Speaker 1>You know, well, your kid, yeah, like your little kid.

598
00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:32.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So, according to Janice, Elizabeth was a sex worker

599
00:29:32.200 --> 00:29:35.680
<v Speaker 2>and a procurer of children for a child trafficking ring.

600
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.319
<v Speaker 2>Janis also claimed that a former member of the Los

601
00:29:38.359 --> 00:29:41.319
<v Speaker 2>Angeles Sheriff's Department told her that her father was at

602
00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:44.240
<v Speaker 2>one time considered to be a suspect in the case,

603
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:50.839
<v Speaker 2>a claim that is unsupported by public records. Police to

604
00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:55.680
<v Speaker 2>police did take her claim seriously, even excavating grounds around

605
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:58.519
<v Speaker 2>the childhood home where she grew up searching for evidence,

606
00:29:58.599 --> 00:30:01.519
<v Speaker 2>but they found nothing to chie to tie George to

607
00:30:01.720 --> 00:30:02.839
<v Speaker 2>the crime at all.

608
00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:06.480
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, I don't think you would after that amount

609
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:06.799
<v Speaker 1>of time.

610
00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:10.880
<v Speaker 2>Really No, I don't think so. Well, not necessarily. I mean,

611
00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:14.039
<v Speaker 2>if there are bones, bones would stay. But and her

612
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:15.480
<v Speaker 2>body was recovered.

613
00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:17.759
<v Speaker 1>But then wasn't all her bones with her body?

614
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:20.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so her body was recovered, So I just yeah,

615
00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:22.240
<v Speaker 2>but I mean potential other victims.

616
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:24.880
<v Speaker 1>Who knows, right, truche Yeah.

617
00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:30.079
<v Speaker 2>Los Angeles Police Department, John P. Saint John awesome name

618
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:33.519
<v Speaker 2>by the way, just saying that was talked to I

619
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:36.079
<v Speaker 2>had talked to Janice and does not believe that there's

620
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:38.720
<v Speaker 2>a connection between the Black Dahlia murder and her father.

621
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:41.359
<v Speaker 2>He's quoted to say, we have a lot of people

622
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:44.480
<v Speaker 2>offering up their fathers in various relatives to the black

623
00:30:44.599 --> 00:30:47.119
<v Speaker 2>or sorry as the Black Doahlia killer. The things that

624
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:49.839
<v Speaker 2>she is saying are not consistent with the facts of

625
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:50.440
<v Speaker 2>the case.

626
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:53.880
<v Speaker 1>So why are people just offering.

627
00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:58.079
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, maybe they're convinced, they've convinced themselves in

628
00:30:58.119 --> 00:31:02.000
<v Speaker 2>some way. I'm not sure. Maybe there is coincidences that

629
00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:04.559
<v Speaker 2>are lining up that just seem too perfect for them

630
00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:04.920
<v Speaker 2>to let go.

631
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:08.160
<v Speaker 1>Yes, jeez, I don't like this person. I want to

632
00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:11.839
<v Speaker 1>just like pretend in my head that they did this, yeah,

633
00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:15.480
<v Speaker 1>and offer them to the police. Like that's just really weird.

634
00:31:17.160 --> 00:31:20.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah it is, Okay, this whole case is kind of

635
00:31:20.599 --> 00:31:21.079
<v Speaker 1>weird though.

636
00:31:23.079 --> 00:31:25.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you could say that we're not even into the

637
00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:27.079
<v Speaker 2>fucking the deep waters of this.

638
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:28.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Now.

639
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:31.160
<v Speaker 2>On March fifth, two thousand and four, Janis Nolton died

640
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:33.799
<v Speaker 2>of an overdose of prescription drugs in what was deemed

641
00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:37.960
<v Speaker 2>a suicide by an Orange County, California corner's office. In

642
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:42.160
<v Speaker 2>twenty nineteen, Newton wrote that Janice Nolton's relatives confirmed that

643
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:45.359
<v Speaker 2>her father, George, was capable of violent abuse, and further

644
00:31:45.400 --> 00:31:54.119
<v Speaker 2>reported that his boasts of having unprosecuted homicides. So, yeah,

645
00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:56.160
<v Speaker 2>there's some shit going down.

646
00:31:57.079 --> 00:32:00.559
<v Speaker 1>Wow, Okay, that's really it's sad.

647
00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:07.720
<v Speaker 2>Actually, Yeah, Unfortunately, the entire thing it lacks substantial evidence.

648
00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:12.279
<v Speaker 2>There's there's nothing to really show any of it. But

649
00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:14.359
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if he did kill some people and got

650
00:32:14.359 --> 00:32:15.680
<v Speaker 2>away with it, that ain't cool either.

651
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:20.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. You have to wonder though, why she ended up

652
00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:23.480
<v Speaker 1>killing herself. If it was just memories that coming back

653
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:25.119
<v Speaker 1>that she can't control.

654
00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:28.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, and she really couldn't let this go either. She

655
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:32.200
<v Speaker 2>actually became somewhat infamous with an online black Dolia discussion

656
00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:35.960
<v Speaker 2>within sorry, the online black Dolia discussion communities for her

657
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.880
<v Speaker 2>insistence that the LPD was engaged in a conspiracy to

658
00:32:39.079 --> 00:32:42.880
<v Speaker 2>discredit her story in order to conceal their knowledge of

659
00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:47.559
<v Speaker 2>his of her father's involvement. So she was quite quite

660
00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:49.799
<v Speaker 2>into this, and she was quite adamant, and she couldn't

661
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:51.279
<v Speaker 2>let it go. So I think it was something that

662
00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:55.839
<v Speaker 2>just over y ate up at her and just took over.

663
00:32:56.559 --> 00:33:00.480
<v Speaker 2>Whether it's factual or whether she was can just convincing

664
00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:02.599
<v Speaker 2>herself is who's to say.

665
00:33:03.079 --> 00:33:05.000
<v Speaker 1>And she just died in twenty nineteen.

666
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:06.640
<v Speaker 2>Two thousand and nine.

667
00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:08.079
<v Speaker 1>Oh okay nine.

668
00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:10.359
<v Speaker 2>Now, I do want to set the record straight before

669
00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:13.440
<v Speaker 2>we go any further. Elizabeth Short was not a sex

670
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:16.319
<v Speaker 2>worker or a call girl. Elizabeth Short was not an

671
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:19.359
<v Speaker 2>actress or a failed actress. There's no proof to support

672
00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:22.160
<v Speaker 2>the idea that she even applied for being an extra,

673
00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:24.480
<v Speaker 2>not to say that she didn't dream of it, but

674
00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:27.759
<v Speaker 2>there is no proof that she ever even tried. Elizabeth

675
00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:32.160
<v Speaker 2>Short was also not sexually infatile and capable of intercourse,

676
00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:35.680
<v Speaker 2>which apparently there are accusations out there of that Elizabeth

677
00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:37.960
<v Speaker 2>was not pregnant at the time for her disappearance and

678
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:43.000
<v Speaker 2>death and confirmed by her autopsy, so the whole pregnancy

679
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:47.200
<v Speaker 2>thing is also off the board. She was not an alcoholic,

680
00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:50.839
<v Speaker 2>she was not a lesbian, which apparently there's also allegations

681
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:53.759
<v Speaker 2>of that, she was not a man hater. And finally,

682
00:33:53.799 --> 00:33:57.160
<v Speaker 2>as some theories draw similar lines between Alisa Lamb and

683
00:33:57.559 --> 00:34:01.279
<v Speaker 2>Elizabeth Short, there are only quincides this is at best,

684
00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:05.079
<v Speaker 2>and Elizabeth was not at the Cecil Hotel before she disappeared.

685
00:34:06.519 --> 00:34:10.519
<v Speaker 1>Wow, this case is a lot of rumors going around

686
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:13.440
<v Speaker 1>oday and just people making a lot of things.

687
00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:15.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Now, whether it's media looking for a good story

688
00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:19.159
<v Speaker 2>or just rumors getting out a hand like, Elizabeth's name

689
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:21.599
<v Speaker 2>has been dragged through the mud since her unfortunate end,

690
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:22.920
<v Speaker 2>which is terribly sad.

691
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:24.840
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that's really sad.

692
00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:27.280
<v Speaker 2>So to set the record straight on all those you

693
00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:31.119
<v Speaker 2>got that information straight now, she was none of those things.

694
00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:35.840
<v Speaker 2>She was not pregnant. She was just your average woman

695
00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:38.719
<v Speaker 2>living in Los Angeles who potentially was aspiring to be

696
00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:39.280
<v Speaker 2>an actress.

697
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:42.199
<v Speaker 1>And sorry in that because you went kind of fast

698
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:44.360
<v Speaker 1>for all of them. Did you say that she had

699
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:45.320
<v Speaker 1>never been pregnant?

700
00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:49.440
<v Speaker 2>Uh, not been pregnant at the time of her disappearance

701
00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:53.199
<v Speaker 2>and DEAs and con she was not pregnant at the

702
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:57.280
<v Speaker 2>time of her death or her disappearance, okay, which is

703
00:34:57.320 --> 00:35:00.480
<v Speaker 2>confirmed by her autopsy. Now, I do not think she

704
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:02.800
<v Speaker 2>had a child as far as my research has shown.

705
00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:05.800
<v Speaker 2>Mind you, I didn't look that up specifically, but I

706
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:07.880
<v Speaker 2>do not believe she's ever had a child, know.

707
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:13.079
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Okay? Now, she was pretty young too, right.

708
00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:15.199
<v Speaker 2>She was, I believe she was. I can't remember her

709
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:17.239
<v Speaker 2>exact age, but I believe twenty two to twenty five somewhere.

710
00:35:17.320 --> 00:35:20.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, Now on to the last.

711
00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:23.920
<v Speaker 2>One, now we will. This is the most notable one, okay,

712
00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:28.559
<v Speaker 2>and it's probably one of the most like high prolific

713
00:35:28.599 --> 00:35:29.960
<v Speaker 2>ones that people are more familiar with.

714
00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:32.199
<v Speaker 1>Is this one you've been teasing with me for weeks?

715
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:38.800
<v Speaker 2>Yes, finally, this is George Hodell and I it's hours

716
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:42.760
<v Speaker 2>of information to talk about, hours days probably even so

717
00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:46.199
<v Speaker 2>if I miss information, I am so sorry. I tried

718
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:48.920
<v Speaker 2>to wrap this up as best I can. All right, okay, but.

719
00:35:48.920 --> 00:35:51.039
<v Speaker 1>You already mentioned it, George, But this is a totally different,

720
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:52.199
<v Speaker 1>totally different George.

721
00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:58.519
<v Speaker 2>Okay, new George, new George. Now Steve Hodell's father, George

722
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:01.280
<v Speaker 2>had passed away and may have nineteen ninety nine, and

723
00:36:01.320 --> 00:36:04.360
<v Speaker 2>he quickly found himself sorting through his father's belongings, trying

724
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:06.719
<v Speaker 2>to tie up loose ends, as one does when a

725
00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:10.920
<v Speaker 2>family member unfortunately passes away. George Hodell was born in

726
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:15.440
<v Speaker 2>October tenth, nineteen oh seven, and passed away on May sixteenth,

727
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:19.039
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety nine. He was an American physician and proudly

728
00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:23.360
<v Speaker 2>boasted about his one hundred and eighty six IQ, well

729
00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:25.639
<v Speaker 2>above Albert Einstein's one sixty.

730
00:36:26.119 --> 00:36:28.239
<v Speaker 1>You already said something of interest, but keep going.

731
00:36:29.079 --> 00:36:29.960
<v Speaker 2>I know I did.

732
00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:31.920
<v Speaker 1>What was it, the surgeon thing?

733
00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:33.000
<v Speaker 2>I said, physician?

734
00:36:33.079 --> 00:36:36.159
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, oh, but yes, yeah, I in my brain,

735
00:36:36.440 --> 00:36:38.400
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, this guy's a surgeon. He's guilty.

736
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:41.559
<v Speaker 2>But yes, you're You're definitely on the right track there.

737
00:36:41.719 --> 00:36:42.079
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

738
00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:45.639
<v Speaker 2>Now, After the success of George's medical practice and becoming

739
00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:50.480
<v Speaker 2>head of the County's Social Hygiene Bureau. Hodell liked to

740
00:36:50.599 --> 00:36:54.199
<v Speaker 2>enjoy the finer things in life, one of which being art.

741
00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:58.360
<v Speaker 2>He befriended an artist and photographer Man Ray, film director

742
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:02.880
<v Speaker 2>John Houston, and many other associates. Together him and his friends,

743
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:07.360
<v Speaker 2>they shared a fondness for things others, like other things

744
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:12.519
<v Speaker 2>in the finer lifestyle, like partying, drinking, womanizing. And there's

745
00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:16.239
<v Speaker 2>many stories out there of a very darker side of

746
00:37:16.280 --> 00:37:19.719
<v Speaker 2>the sexual activities they involved that they involved.

747
00:37:19.400 --> 00:37:21.159
<v Speaker 1>Themselves in this group of friends.

748
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:27.280
<v Speaker 2>Basically, yes, many of them being very aggressive and dark,

749
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:34.239
<v Speaker 2>such as beating individuals during intercourse BDSM without the safe

750
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:35.639
<v Speaker 2>word pretty much.

751
00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:36.639
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

752
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:39.400
<v Speaker 2>So that's a whole other topic. But I just wanted

753
00:37:39.400 --> 00:37:40.920
<v Speaker 2>to just throw that in there, that that's.

754
00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:44.360
<v Speaker 1>A possible and they're basically brought like wealthy, powerful men, Yes,

755
00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:45.039
<v Speaker 1>very much.

756
00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:48.719
<v Speaker 2>So. Now, none of this was a secret to Steve.

757
00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:51.400
<v Speaker 2>He saw it all growing up. As he went through

758
00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:54.679
<v Speaker 2>his father's possessions, Steve ended up finding a photo album

759
00:37:54.760 --> 00:37:57.159
<v Speaker 2>tucked away in a box he was small enough to

760
00:37:57.159 --> 00:37:59.559
<v Speaker 2>fit in his palm, and it was tucked away, like

761
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:03.199
<v Speaker 2>I said in this night neat little wooden box. It

762
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:06.159
<v Speaker 2>was filled with the usual pictures of his mom, his dad,

763
00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:09.920
<v Speaker 2>and brothers, and as well portraits of his family taken

764
00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:14.559
<v Speaker 2>by the artist and photographer Man Ray so professional photographers

765
00:38:14.599 --> 00:38:18.239
<v Speaker 2>by this artist friend. Okay, but towards the back there's

766
00:38:18.280 --> 00:38:22.239
<v Speaker 2>something that caught his eye. Two pictures of a young woman,

767
00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:26.760
<v Speaker 2>her eyes cast downward, with curly, deep black hair and

768
00:38:26.800 --> 00:38:29.519
<v Speaker 2>pausing for a moment. Steve stared at the pictures and

769
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:33.840
<v Speaker 2>something clicked and he said, my god, this looks like

770
00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:35.119
<v Speaker 2>the black Dahlia.

771
00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:37.280
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

772
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:41.159
<v Speaker 2>A connection that was all too easy for Steve Hodell,

773
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:46.639
<v Speaker 2>who was an ex LAPD detective. Holy shit, yep.

774
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:47.880
<v Speaker 1>Imagine finding that.

775
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:49.360
<v Speaker 2>Egh, no kidding.

776
00:38:49.480 --> 00:38:50.800
<v Speaker 1>I think I would be like shaken.

777
00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:53.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean to see something like that'd be like,

778
00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:56.760
<v Speaker 2>there's an obvious connection here.

779
00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:02.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so that's fucked. But I almost feel like if

780
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:03.960
<v Speaker 1>it's in that certain photo al but maybe it's like

781
00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:10.000
<v Speaker 1>another kid of sorts, a secret child or something kind

782
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:11.760
<v Speaker 1>of where my head went right away.

783
00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:15.079
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it could be I never really thought of that,

784
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:19.159
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Or it could be a sacred.

785
00:39:18.920 --> 00:39:20.679
<v Speaker 1>Lover that too. Yeah.

786
00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:24.079
<v Speaker 2>So now, one of the most immediate suspicions of George

787
00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:27.639
<v Speaker 2>Hodell being was the murder in this way was Elizabeth

788
00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:29.960
<v Speaker 2>was cut in half, Because, like we talked about, he's

789
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:34.159
<v Speaker 2>a physician, and Elizabeth was cut in half. It was

790
00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:37.320
<v Speaker 2>extremely precise, with little to no damage done in the process.

791
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:40.280
<v Speaker 2>In fact, there is a medical name for said process.

792
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:44.320
<v Speaker 2>Elizabeth had been given a I'm gonna butcher this, but

793
00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:49.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna try hemi corporal hemi corpor rectomy. Huh, a

794
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:52.840
<v Speaker 2>procedure that slices the body beneath the lumbar spine, the

795
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:55.360
<v Speaker 2>only spot where the body can be severed in half

796
00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:56.960
<v Speaker 2>without breaking bone.

797
00:39:57.480 --> 00:39:59.239
<v Speaker 1>Really, Oh, there's actually a spot.

798
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:01.119
<v Speaker 2>There's a specific spot.

799
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:01.960
<v Speaker 1>I didn't know.

800
00:40:01.960 --> 00:40:04.800
<v Speaker 2>That, now you do. And that's where she.

801
00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:06.480
<v Speaker 1>Was way not knowing that.

802
00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:08.719
<v Speaker 2>I feel like I would have been okay, knowing a

803
00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:10.679
<v Speaker 2>lot of things, or without knowing a lot of things

804
00:40:10.679 --> 00:40:13.480
<v Speaker 2>from this case. So welcome to my word.

805
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:15.039
<v Speaker 1>From a lot from a lot of our cases.

806
00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:17.760
<v Speaker 2>Really, Yeah, that's true, that's true. I think I'm repressing

807
00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:19.039
<v Speaker 2>a lot of those things.

808
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:21.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we're gonna have to start going and counseling and

809
00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:25.159
<v Speaker 1>bringing up ship that we're suppressing from all this show.

810
00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:28.719
<v Speaker 2>Probably we talk about a lot of fucked up assholes.

811
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:33.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Like it's ridiculous that's the majority of our conversations.

812
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:38.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, even like making dinner and stuff, just

813
00:40:38.360 --> 00:40:41.079
<v Speaker 2>like talking about douche canoes and like, what's the next case, Oh,

814
00:40:41.480 --> 00:40:43.320
<v Speaker 2>you should hear it, it's fucking.

815
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:45.519
<v Speaker 1>Horrific, or just weird shit in general.

816
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:50.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, or or my favorite one, how much my arm's

817
00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:52.639
<v Speaker 2>fucking her hurts so much.

818
00:40:53.719 --> 00:40:58.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry that I brought this up. People, they hurt. Okay,

819
00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:00.719
<v Speaker 1>I have literally heard that. Probably I should have counted

820
00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:03.159
<v Speaker 1>I should asserted itally this morning just for fun, and

821
00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:06.920
<v Speaker 1>not even have told you, well, probably fifty times.

822
00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:08.599
<v Speaker 2>Let's see if we can get to one hundred by

823
00:41:08.599 --> 00:41:09.079
<v Speaker 2>the night's end.

824
00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:10.079
<v Speaker 1>That's okay, that's not.

825
00:41:10.280 --> 00:41:15.199
<v Speaker 2>Challenge accepted, all right. So that the hemi corporrectomy, it

826
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:17.679
<v Speaker 2>was actually a procedure taught in the nineteen thirties, the

827
00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:20.639
<v Speaker 2>time when George had been to medical school.

828
00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:23.840
<v Speaker 1>Why was this taught? Sorry, I don't know, if you're

829
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:24.519
<v Speaker 1>going there.

830
00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:27.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't know why it was taught. Okay, It's one

831
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:29.480
<v Speaker 2>of those things that I didn't look into. There's too

832
00:41:29.559 --> 00:41:30.400
<v Speaker 2>much for me to look into.

833
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:31.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's really odd.

834
00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:34.280
<v Speaker 2>And it seems like it's a little bit of a

835
00:41:34.480 --> 00:41:36.280
<v Speaker 2>if you want to learn. I mean, by all means,

836
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:39.679
<v Speaker 2>go go for it. Tell us why this was actually taught.

837
00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:43.039
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I'm assuming it's something to do with

838
00:41:43.159 --> 00:41:44.599
<v Speaker 2>autopsies or something of the life.

839
00:41:44.679 --> 00:41:48.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, my search has seen bad enough things. I'm giving

840
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:49.119
<v Speaker 1>it a break.

841
00:41:49.239 --> 00:41:51.719
<v Speaker 2>Oh, the FBI is looking at her computers, going, what

842
00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:57.119
<v Speaker 2>the fuck? We are definitely being surveillanced. Oh, I guarantee it.

843
00:41:58.840 --> 00:42:05.159
<v Speaker 2>So anyways, Steve surveyed this case from scratch, digging through witnesses, interviews,

844
00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:08.480
<v Speaker 2>newspaper archives, and once he set his eye on the

845
00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:11.519
<v Speaker 2>letters that were from the Black Dellia murders, Steve made

846
00:42:11.559 --> 00:42:14.880
<v Speaker 2>another connection the letters that had been sent to the

847
00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:19.960
<v Speaker 2>police and the press. The one that was handwritten, specifically,

848
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:25.519
<v Speaker 2>bore a chilling resemblance to his dad's hand, so much

849
00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:28.760
<v Speaker 2>so that Steve swears to this day that the writing

850
00:42:28.920 --> 00:42:32.920
<v Speaker 2>is one hundred percent his father's, no doubt in his mind.

851
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:35.679
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

852
00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:38.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh me could just breathe my face. Oh dog, you've

853
00:42:38.360 --> 00:42:42.039
<v Speaker 2>got stinky breast. Good girl, but cool laid.

854
00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:43.320
<v Speaker 1>Down to her.

855
00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:49.480
<v Speaker 2>That was rawnch wow o meek. Oh, this whole place

856
00:42:49.559 --> 00:42:50.480
<v Speaker 2>needs like aired out.

857
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:53.440
<v Speaker 1>Now, are you okay? It's not that bad?

858
00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:55.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if she was just licking her butt

859
00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:02.199
<v Speaker 2>or something, but that was bad anyways. So with this information, uh,

860
00:43:02.360 --> 00:43:05.199
<v Speaker 2>Steve ended up filing a Freedom of Information Act to

861
00:43:05.239 --> 00:43:08.800
<v Speaker 2>retrieve the FBI files on the murder and the information

862
00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:12.280
<v Speaker 2>that the bureau had collected on his father. He sent

863
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:15.119
<v Speaker 2>the photographs that he had found of his father's photo

864
00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:19.679
<v Speaker 2>album for facial recognition experts to examine. One remains unknown

865
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:23.320
<v Speaker 2>and the other one has been identified potentially as another woman,

866
00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:25.960
<v Speaker 2>both not being certain.

867
00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:28.480
<v Speaker 1>Oh, like, they're not certain it's even her.

868
00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:33.119
<v Speaker 2>They're not photos, but they can't conclusively say yes or no. Now,

869
00:43:33.199 --> 00:43:37.119
<v Speaker 2>I've I've seen mixed reviews on if the one woman

870
00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:40.280
<v Speaker 2>had actually been identified in the in one photo. Hm,

871
00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:44.559
<v Speaker 2>So I'm not certain if it's this woman has been

872
00:43:44.599 --> 00:43:47.880
<v Speaker 2>identified as a certain individual, or has been identified that

873
00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:53.199
<v Speaker 2>this is not Elizabeth Okay, Again, mixed reviews on that one. However,

874
00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:56.960
<v Speaker 2>the second photo, for sure is inconclusive whether it's her

875
00:43:57.039 --> 00:43:57.239
<v Speaker 2>or not.

876
00:43:57.559 --> 00:43:57.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

877
00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:04.440
<v Speaker 2>Now, a handwriting expert determined that there was strong likelihood

878
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:06.679
<v Speaker 2>that the father's handwriting match to script on some of

879
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:09.119
<v Speaker 2>the notes that the killer had sent the LBPD, but

880
00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:11.800
<v Speaker 2>the results again were also inconclusive.

881
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:14.960
<v Speaker 1>Because i feel like actually people, it's as she when

882
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:18.039
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, just back in the day when everyone

883
00:44:18.119 --> 00:44:21.360
<v Speaker 1>kind of was right handwriting like the same. Yeah, I

884
00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:25.599
<v Speaker 1>feel like it could actually be resemblance without potentially there's.

885
00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:30.280
<v Speaker 2>Potential, but there's little nuances on how someone writes something.

886
00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:32.800
<v Speaker 1>The director, the pressure, the pressure.

887
00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:35.960
<v Speaker 2>The direction you write a letter, if you if we

888
00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:38.320
<v Speaker 2>all do in a zero, we're all going to do

889
00:44:38.360 --> 00:44:41.199
<v Speaker 2>it differently. We'll start at a different spot and we'll

890
00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:44.119
<v Speaker 2>go a different direction. We'll do different sizes. It might

891
00:44:44.199 --> 00:44:47.199
<v Speaker 2>slant slightly, it might be shorter and fatter, it might

892
00:44:47.239 --> 00:44:50.880
<v Speaker 2>be taller skin. There's a lot of little things that

893
00:44:50.920 --> 00:44:55.519
<v Speaker 2>give it away. Now, in the archives that Steve had

894
00:44:55.559 --> 00:45:00.320
<v Speaker 2>actually been able to get from the authorities, Steve found

895
00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:04.480
<v Speaker 2>a folder containing receipts for contract working in his childhood home.

896
00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:07.119
<v Speaker 2>One of the receipts showed a purchase of a few

897
00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:13.280
<v Speaker 2>days before schwartz murder, ten five pound bags of concrete. Now,

898
00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:15.760
<v Speaker 2>at the scene of the crime, not too far away,

899
00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:19.880
<v Speaker 2>there was a bag that was found of concrete. And

900
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:23.679
<v Speaker 2>this was the same brand and same size of said

901
00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:26.000
<v Speaker 2>concrete bag that had been found.

902
00:45:28.280 --> 00:45:30.920
<v Speaker 1>What does that mean? Sorry, So, when she was put

903
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:34.000
<v Speaker 1>in the concrete bag, or that they this person had plans.

904
00:45:34.039 --> 00:45:37.639
<v Speaker 2>Potentially they believe that in one of these bags that

905
00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:40.159
<v Speaker 2>I had found by the crime scene, that the killer

906
00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:43.719
<v Speaker 2>may have used this bag for transport, transport and carry

907
00:45:43.719 --> 00:45:49.280
<v Speaker 2>her body. Now, the bag was from a brand of concrete. Okay,

908
00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:53.400
<v Speaker 2>powder that you mix up and everything. The bags in

909
00:45:53.559 --> 00:45:56.760
<v Speaker 2>said receipt were the same size of bag and the

910
00:45:56.800 --> 00:45:59.480
<v Speaker 2>same brand of bag that was found at the scene

911
00:45:59.519 --> 00:45:59.920
<v Speaker 2>of the crime.

912
00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:05.519
<v Speaker 1>Okay, But would the dad have had any other use

913
00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:08.199
<v Speaker 1>for this concrete? Maybe he's buying for something.

914
00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:13.880
<v Speaker 2>Maybe, So sorry, I'm just like you're playing devil's advocates.

915
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:15.760
<v Speaker 2>I usually do that.

916
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:16.519
<v Speaker 1>I really am here.

917
00:46:16.599 --> 00:46:20.079
<v Speaker 2>It's a good though now as a civilian. As a

918
00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:23.320
<v Speaker 2>civilian now, because he has retired, Steve doesn't have access

919
00:46:23.320 --> 00:46:27.719
<v Speaker 2>to the original police files, and an officer actually admitted

920
00:46:27.719 --> 00:46:33.079
<v Speaker 2>to him he even if he did have access, majority

921
00:46:33.079 --> 00:46:35.599
<v Speaker 2>of the physical evidence has been lost over the years,

922
00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:39.920
<v Speaker 2>most of the witnesses are dead, and the original cops

923
00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:42.159
<v Speaker 2>that worked the case are also deceased.

924
00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:44.519
<v Speaker 1>So this is just like never going to get solved,

925
00:46:44.519 --> 00:46:45.599
<v Speaker 1>probably mean.

926
00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:50.760
<v Speaker 2>Most likely. But yeah, Now, in two thousand and one,

927
00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:54.760
<v Speaker 2>after two years of researching the case full time, Hodell

928
00:46:55.119 --> 00:46:59.360
<v Speaker 2>or Steve Hodell turned to another individual, Stephen Kay, an

929
00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:02.000
<v Speaker 2>acquaintance of it who worked at the Los Angeles County

930
00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:06.199
<v Speaker 2>District Attorney's office. Steve still wasn't sure he could be

931
00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:08.360
<v Speaker 2>he could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that his father

932
00:47:08.519 --> 00:47:12.400
<v Speaker 2>was the Black Dahlia Killer, but he was convinced his

933
00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:16.440
<v Speaker 2>investigation had unearthed enough new material to justify a fresh

934
00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:19.559
<v Speaker 2>look from law enforcement officials into the into the case.

935
00:47:20.840 --> 00:47:27.199
<v Speaker 2>So his friend Steve Kay agreed. He said, all right,

936
00:47:27.519 --> 00:47:31.280
<v Speaker 2>let's review the files. So he went in, and six

937
00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:34.519
<v Speaker 2>weeks later Kay responded to him with a glowing letter

938
00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:39.280
<v Speaker 2>saying this, thanks to some great detective work by this

939
00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:44.320
<v Speaker 2>Sorry I butchered that sentence. Thanks to some great detective

940
00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:47.559
<v Speaker 2>work by his courageous son Steve, the name of doctor

941
00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:53.679
<v Speaker 2>George Hodell will live in infamy. What do you think

942
00:47:53.679 --> 00:47:54.079
<v Speaker 2>that means?

943
00:47:55.159 --> 00:47:58.679
<v Speaker 1>I have no idea. Actually, I was going to ask that,

944
00:47:58.719 --> 00:48:01.039
<v Speaker 1>I feel like I'm asking too many Well, so I

945
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:01.920
<v Speaker 1>just didn't.

946
00:48:02.280 --> 00:48:04.280
<v Speaker 2>Let's just say this. He continued to say that if

947
00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:06.880
<v Speaker 2>George was still alive, he would file two charges of

948
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:12.119
<v Speaker 2>murder against him. Oh wow, he believes Steve was right.

949
00:48:12.840 --> 00:48:19.639
<v Speaker 1>Wow. Hey, yeah, huh okay, But I also just still

950
00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:23.239
<v Speaker 1>find this so interesting that like these parents and stuff

951
00:48:23.239 --> 00:48:26.480
<v Speaker 1>are dead and then the kids are just like, I

952
00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:29.360
<v Speaker 1>don't know, I feel like i'd bury that, but I

953
00:48:29.360 --> 00:48:32.239
<v Speaker 1>don't know. Maybe that makes me a terrible person. I

954
00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:32.639
<v Speaker 1>don't know.

955
00:48:33.119 --> 00:48:33.519
<v Speaker 2>You don't know.

956
00:48:33.880 --> 00:48:35.880
<v Speaker 1>I don't know how far I would dig into this, right,

957
00:48:35.960 --> 00:48:36.159
<v Speaker 1>you know?

958
00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:38.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean it's it's a bit different because he

959
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:41.199
<v Speaker 2>is and he's a retired detective.

960
00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:42.840
<v Speaker 1>True, that's true, very true.

961
00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:46.000
<v Speaker 2>So I mean it's yeah, you would.

962
00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:47.760
<v Speaker 1>Be very curious, but then how far would you go

963
00:48:47.840 --> 00:48:49.719
<v Speaker 1>with it too? Is just what I'm kind of getting

964
00:48:49.719 --> 00:48:50.119
<v Speaker 1>at here.

965
00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:53.400
<v Speaker 2>So if you were a retired detective and your father

966
00:48:53.760 --> 00:48:58.280
<v Speaker 2>could be a prolific murderer or serial killer, you you

967
00:48:58.280 --> 00:49:00.239
<v Speaker 2>can't tell me you wouldn't try to do something write

968
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:06.119
<v Speaker 2>about that, or you'd cover it up for him.

969
00:49:06.559 --> 00:49:09.000
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I don't know if I should answer this.

970
00:49:09.159 --> 00:49:15.400
<v Speaker 2>In case your dad is listening. Uh well, moving on

971
00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:16.760
<v Speaker 2>from that, I won't put that pressure on you. I'll

972
00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:19.400
<v Speaker 2>take that pressure off. Steve Lopez. There's a lot of

973
00:49:19.400 --> 00:49:21.760
<v Speaker 2>Steves in this, by the way. Steve Lopez, a columnist

974
00:49:21.760 --> 00:49:24.320
<v Speaker 2>at the Los Angeles Times, received a copy of Steve's

975
00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:27.400
<v Speaker 2>book that he wrote shortly after this and decided to

976
00:49:27.440 --> 00:49:30.679
<v Speaker 2>write about it. While in fact checking his column, Lopez

977
00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:34.039
<v Speaker 2>asked the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office for more

978
00:49:34.039 --> 00:49:37.760
<v Speaker 2>information on the murder. The DA's office complied, and Lopez

979
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:41.920
<v Speaker 2>received access to a file that Lieutenant Frank Jemison, one

980
00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:45.679
<v Speaker 2>of the original officers involved in the investigation, had left

981
00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:48.119
<v Speaker 2>behind in a safe in the basement at the District

982
00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:52.320
<v Speaker 2>Attorney's office. The file a copy of which the District

983
00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:56.360
<v Speaker 2>Attorney also shared with The Guardian. You know, the Guardian

984
00:49:56.400 --> 00:49:57.960
<v Speaker 2>write the articles.

985
00:49:57.559 --> 00:49:59.599
<v Speaker 1>The new source of the newspaper kind of thing yep.

986
00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:04.519
<v Speaker 2>Contains an assortment of photographs, newspapers, clippings, and several hundred

987
00:50:04.519 --> 00:50:08.599
<v Speaker 2>pages of typed interview notes, pixelated with age and compiled

988
00:50:08.599 --> 00:50:12.039
<v Speaker 2>and blah blah blah blah now burieden said notes is

989
00:50:12.280 --> 00:50:16.280
<v Speaker 2>the bombshell that Steve had been hoping for. The Los

990
00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:20.920
<v Speaker 2>Angeles Police Department was focused on six suspects back in

991
00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:25.079
<v Speaker 2>the day, back when this case was originally occurring in

992
00:50:25.119 --> 00:50:29.960
<v Speaker 2>the forties, and George Hodell was one of those six.

993
00:50:30.039 --> 00:50:34.519
<v Speaker 1>In the original file Wow, no way.

994
00:50:34.760 --> 00:50:39.159
<v Speaker 2>Yes way now. Originally he gained attention from the police.

995
00:50:39.159 --> 00:50:44.000
<v Speaker 2>In late nineteen forty nine, George's teenage daughter Tamar accused

996
00:50:44.079 --> 00:50:47.159
<v Speaker 2>him of sexual abuse and impregnating her.

997
00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:49.239
<v Speaker 1>Okay that his kid.

998
00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:50.760
<v Speaker 2>Yep, his daughter.

999
00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:51.480
<v Speaker 1>I hate that.

1000
00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:55.960
<v Speaker 2>The daughter gave birth to a wow to a daughter

1001
00:50:56.079 --> 00:50:59.199
<v Speaker 2>named Fauna, and her birth father was unknown.

1002
00:50:59.519 --> 00:50:59.800
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

1003
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:04.480
<v Speaker 2>Troubled Tomorrow gave up Fauna for adoption. Fauner later learned

1004
00:51:04.519 --> 00:51:10.199
<v Speaker 2>of her true origins and unfortunately she never really ever

1005
00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:13.159
<v Speaker 2>found out who her true father was and it's unknown

1006
00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:13.800
<v Speaker 2>to this day.

1007
00:51:15.320 --> 00:51:16.079
<v Speaker 1>Humh.

1008
00:51:16.360 --> 00:51:21.519
<v Speaker 2>Now, George Hodell was acquitted after a widely publicized trial.

1009
00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:25.440
<v Speaker 2>Two witnesses to the alleged abuse testified at the trial.

1010
00:51:25.760 --> 00:51:29.880
<v Speaker 2>A third recanted their earlier testimony and refused to come forward,

1011
00:51:29.960 --> 00:51:34.199
<v Speaker 2>with one theory being that Hodell threatened them into silence. Now,

1012
00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:38.039
<v Speaker 2>Tomar's testimony was perceived as contradictory and nothing more than

1013
00:51:38.119 --> 00:51:39.119
<v Speaker 2>attention seeking.

1014
00:51:41.639 --> 00:51:43.239
<v Speaker 1>Well, money can do a lot of things for.

1015
00:51:43.239 --> 00:51:47.480
<v Speaker 2>You too, that's true. So just to point this out,

1016
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:51.119
<v Speaker 2>I believe his daughter Tomorrow was sixteen when she gave birth.

1017
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:55.440
<v Speaker 1>Holy hat. Yes, So this guy is just pure evil?

1018
00:51:57.159 --> 00:52:01.159
<v Speaker 2>Yes really yes, if he is doing these things, he

1019
00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:03.119
<v Speaker 2>is fucking disgusting.

1020
00:52:03.280 --> 00:52:06.480
<v Speaker 1>Fuck this guy, which I also think it's so incredible

1021
00:52:06.519 --> 00:52:11.880
<v Speaker 1>that his son went to go and be a detective.

1022
00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:14.920
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, definitely, because Okay, this I don't know if

1023
00:52:14.960 --> 00:52:16.360
<v Speaker 1>I should be saying this, but I feel like it's

1024
00:52:16.360 --> 00:52:18.840
<v Speaker 1>almost one or the other. When you have just like

1025
00:52:18.880 --> 00:52:21.760
<v Speaker 1>a terrible upbringing, I feel like you're either going to

1026
00:52:21.800 --> 00:52:23.679
<v Speaker 1>become a police officer or you're going to become a

1027
00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:26.599
<v Speaker 1>serial killer. Like it's like one or the other, almost,

1028
00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:27.039
<v Speaker 1>isn't it.

1029
00:52:27.440 --> 00:52:29.360
<v Speaker 2>I Mean I don't think it's always that.

1030
00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:33.679
<v Speaker 1>Now, but it's like you hear about that often. Yeah,

1031
00:52:33.719 --> 00:52:36.000
<v Speaker 1>either you're following their footsteps or you're doing the complate

1032
00:52:36.039 --> 00:52:37.639
<v Speaker 1>opposite to like save people.

1033
00:52:37.840 --> 00:52:41.440
<v Speaker 2>You're not wrong, but you're also not right. But you're

1034
00:52:41.480 --> 00:52:41.920
<v Speaker 2>not wrong.

1035
00:52:42.039 --> 00:52:45.199
<v Speaker 1>I'm not wrong because it's just it's probably a very

1036
00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:46.960
<v Speaker 1>small percentage of people.

1037
00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:50.280
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, it's it's funny how it works out that way. Unfortunately,

1038
00:52:50.559 --> 00:52:51.719
<v Speaker 2>not funny, but you know what I mean.

1039
00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:54.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, just from cases we've researched.

1040
00:52:54.639 --> 00:52:57.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so now, also another piece of information that came

1041
00:52:57.800 --> 00:52:59.519
<v Speaker 2>up was at the time of the murder, there was

1042
00:52:59.559 --> 00:53:02.800
<v Speaker 2>a black car that had been seen around the scene

1043
00:53:02.840 --> 00:53:06.039
<v Speaker 2>of the crime by locals in the area, A car

1044
00:53:06.320 --> 00:53:14.039
<v Speaker 2>that matched the description of George Hodels jeez, yep, wow,

1045
00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:19.119
<v Speaker 2>So we have one more big bomb to drop. There

1046
00:53:19.159 --> 00:53:22.840
<v Speaker 2>was another major bomb with George.

1047
00:53:23.159 --> 00:53:25.840
<v Speaker 1>Yes, here, you feel like you dropped a lot.

1048
00:53:26.039 --> 00:53:29.480
<v Speaker 2>In those files that were recovered, there is a transcript

1049
00:53:29.559 --> 00:53:32.800
<v Speaker 2>from a period in nineteen fifty when the police were

1050
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:38.320
<v Speaker 2>bugging George Hodell's home. Most of the transcript is dull.

1051
00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:43.199
<v Speaker 2>Hodell has sax, he beats his secretary apparently holy shit,

1052
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:46.639
<v Speaker 2>talks about money problems. But on ninth, the nineteenth of

1053
00:53:46.679 --> 00:53:52.079
<v Speaker 2>February in nineteen fifty, there's a haunting exchange. Now I

1054
00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:56.159
<v Speaker 2>don't know specifically what this means, so I'm going to

1055
00:53:56.239 --> 00:54:01.119
<v Speaker 2>read it exactly what this line says. Okay, eight twenty

1056
00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:09.039
<v Speaker 2>five pm. Quote, woman screamed, woman screamed again. In brackets,

1057
00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:13.079
<v Speaker 2>it should be noted the woman not heard before the

1058
00:54:13.159 --> 00:54:20.599
<v Speaker 2>scream end quote. So there's a few different ways to

1059
00:54:20.639 --> 00:54:24.039
<v Speaker 2>interpret that. I'm interpreting it as they hear a woman's scream,

1060
00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:26.440
<v Speaker 2>and then they hear a woman scream again, and they

1061
00:54:26.519 --> 00:54:30.440
<v Speaker 2>never heard a woman's voice prior to That's what I

1062
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:35.320
<v Speaker 2>interpret that as. Okay, Yeah, Now, later in that day,

1063
00:54:36.280 --> 00:54:40.159
<v Speaker 2>also in these transcripts, Hotel talks to a confidant and

1064
00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:45.119
<v Speaker 2>says this, realize there was nothing I could do. Put

1065
00:54:45.159 --> 00:54:48.280
<v Speaker 2>a pillow over her head and cover it with a blanket.

1066
00:54:48.760 --> 00:54:53.400
<v Speaker 2>Get a taxi expired twelve fifty nine. They thought there

1067
00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:57.360
<v Speaker 2>was something fishy anyway, now they have figured it out,

1068
00:54:57.880 --> 00:54:58.360
<v Speaker 2>killed her.

1069
00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:03.679
<v Speaker 1>Huh. Okay, But back to that woman's screaming thing, is

1070
00:55:03.679 --> 00:55:05.760
<v Speaker 1>that like he listening to like a recording or there's

1071
00:55:05.800 --> 00:55:07.320
<v Speaker 1>like someone in his house that he's hurting.

1072
00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:12.760
<v Speaker 2>I went there, well, I mean, coupled with this conversation here,

1073
00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:14.920
<v Speaker 2>to me, it sounds like there's someone he hurt, someone

1074
00:55:14.920 --> 00:55:15.400
<v Speaker 2>he killed.

1075
00:55:18.039 --> 00:55:18.800
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

1076
00:55:20.039 --> 00:55:25.760
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Now the surveillance continues routinely, but for one telling moment.

1077
00:55:27.199 --> 00:55:30.239
<v Speaker 2>This is the last transcript that I have here. Quote

1078
00:55:30.599 --> 00:55:34.239
<v Speaker 2>supposing I did kill the black Dohlia, they couldn't prove it.

1079
00:55:34.360 --> 00:55:38.840
<v Speaker 2>Now they can't talk to my secretary anymore because she's dead.

1080
00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:41.199
<v Speaker 1>End quote because he killed her.

1081
00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:44.480
<v Speaker 2>Could have been the woman you heard scream.

1082
00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:47.320
<v Speaker 1>Jeez, how is he How did he not have to

1083
00:55:47.320 --> 00:55:51.559
<v Speaker 1>go to jail even after hearing like those transcripts.

1084
00:55:50.920 --> 00:55:54.920
<v Speaker 2>Because these transcripts cannot legally be taken into account. The

1085
00:55:54.920 --> 00:55:57.239
<v Speaker 2>Hodel household was illegally bugged.

1086
00:55:57.440 --> 00:55:58.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, then why ball they're bugging it?

1087
00:55:59.159 --> 00:56:05.239
<v Speaker 2>I know, right, the conversations that transcripts are effectively moot

1088
00:56:05.280 --> 00:56:07.000
<v Speaker 2>in the court of law. Unfortunately.

1089
00:56:07.639 --> 00:56:09.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, I get that, I understand that.

1090
00:56:09.920 --> 00:56:14.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So now all these pieces coming together over the

1091
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:17.679
<v Speaker 2>years brought light to George Hodell's wicked past and potentially

1092
00:56:17.960 --> 00:56:23.039
<v Speaker 2>murderous tendencies as we have now realized. But before I

1093
00:56:23.079 --> 00:56:25.039
<v Speaker 2>move into the final part of this theory, I want

1094
00:56:25.079 --> 00:56:27.719
<v Speaker 2>to revisit a few things. The handwriting the picture on

1095
00:56:27.800 --> 00:56:30.800
<v Speaker 2>George's photo album. There are mixed reviews on both of those.

1096
00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:32.360
<v Speaker 2>Just remember this, just because I want to make sure

1097
00:56:32.360 --> 00:56:36.159
<v Speaker 2>I portray that, so that handwriting is inconclusive either way.

1098
00:56:36.599 --> 00:56:40.320
<v Speaker 2>George swears up and down. There are some professionals who

1099
00:56:40.360 --> 00:56:44.559
<v Speaker 2>say that it's not his writing. There are some professionals

1100
00:56:44.559 --> 00:56:48.320
<v Speaker 2>who say it is. It's inconclusive. Yeah, same with the photos.

1101
00:56:48.679 --> 00:56:53.960
<v Speaker 2>Inconclusive very well, maybe very well, may not. So just

1102
00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:55.880
<v Speaker 2>wanted to touch on that just to get that clear,

1103
00:56:56.639 --> 00:56:58.280
<v Speaker 2>so you can really soak in all the evidence that

1104
00:56:58.280 --> 00:57:01.199
<v Speaker 2>we've got here before we hit the final one. So

1105
00:57:01.239 --> 00:57:03.840
<v Speaker 2>that last part though, of the theory that we're about

1106
00:57:03.880 --> 00:57:07.360
<v Speaker 2>to talk about. Steve believes his father and his love

1107
00:57:07.400 --> 00:57:11.039
<v Speaker 2>for art and how he looked up to his friend

1108
00:57:11.159 --> 00:57:15.519
<v Speaker 2>man Ray could be the final clue. You see, man

1109
00:57:15.639 --> 00:57:19.079
<v Speaker 2>Ray has two pieces of art, in particular, the Leah

1110
00:57:19.119 --> 00:57:26.039
<v Speaker 2>Moore and the Minotaur I'm Moray, sorry, Leah Moray French

1111
00:57:26.079 --> 00:57:31.719
<v Speaker 2>for the Lovers, and it's a composite photography piece that

1112
00:57:31.800 --> 00:57:36.920
<v Speaker 2>depicts lips of man Ray's departed lover Lee Miller, floating

1113
00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:40.320
<v Speaker 2>in the sky above a new woman lying on her side.

1114
00:57:40.519 --> 00:57:43.440
<v Speaker 2>It's believed that the woman may be dreaming a nightmare

1115
00:57:43.559 --> 00:57:48.400
<v Speaker 2>or a Eurotic fantasy. But a cool little side note

1116
00:57:48.440 --> 00:57:50.840
<v Speaker 2>though on this is that the lips actually pictured in

1117
00:57:50.840 --> 00:57:53.360
<v Speaker 2>this piece were the inspiration for the logo and the

1118
00:57:53.400 --> 00:57:56.119
<v Speaker 2>rocky horror picture show Oh Wow, which is really cool,

1119
00:57:56.960 --> 00:58:00.800
<v Speaker 2>but also potentially the inspiration for the Black Dolly is twisted.

1120
00:58:00.440 --> 00:58:04.960
<v Speaker 1>Smile huh, which is this guy's friend.

1121
00:58:05.320 --> 00:58:10.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it could be the Black Dahlia. Her body

1122
00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:14.920
<v Speaker 2>ended up being a twisted piece of art that George

1123
00:58:14.920 --> 00:58:19.119
<v Speaker 2>Hodell was drawing inspiration from Manray's work, just like the

1124
00:58:19.159 --> 00:58:23.239
<v Speaker 2>Smile and this painting or this photograph my apologies. He

1125
00:58:23.679 --> 00:58:27.960
<v Speaker 2>did a similar smile by slicing open the cheeks of

1126
00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:33.199
<v Speaker 2>Elizabeth shortsh Now and the Minotaur is a black and

1127
00:58:33.239 --> 00:58:36.320
<v Speaker 2>white photo of a nude woman's chest. She lays still,

1128
00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:39.599
<v Speaker 2>with the photo cropping her out at the waist, where

1129
00:58:39.639 --> 00:58:43.719
<v Speaker 2>she extends her arms in a relaxed fashion above her head,

1130
00:58:44.880 --> 00:58:46.880
<v Speaker 2>just like Elizabeth Short.

1131
00:58:48.079 --> 00:58:50.480
<v Speaker 1>Okay, but we're not saying that the photographer has anything

1132
00:58:50.519 --> 00:58:53.480
<v Speaker 1>to do with this. It's just George getting inspiration from

1133
00:58:53.519 --> 00:58:53.960
<v Speaker 1>his friend.

1134
00:58:54.360 --> 00:58:58.440
<v Speaker 2>Yes. Steve Hodell argues that it was his father, George's

1135
00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:02.320
<v Speaker 2>way of emulating his friend's art and surrealism, allowing him

1136
00:59:02.320 --> 00:59:06.639
<v Speaker 2>to build what Steve believes his father would refer to

1137
00:59:06.679 --> 00:59:11.920
<v Speaker 2>as a masterpiece, a crime so shocking and horrible it

1138
00:59:11.960 --> 00:59:15.639
<v Speaker 2>would endure and be immortalized through crime lore.

1139
00:59:16.679 --> 00:59:19.840
<v Speaker 1>H Wow.

1140
00:59:21.320 --> 00:59:25.079
<v Speaker 2>Now, Unfortunately, whatever George had done, or anyone else for

1141
00:59:25.199 --> 00:59:29.559
<v Speaker 2>that matter, because we don't conclusively know, the likelihood of

1142
00:59:29.599 --> 00:59:32.239
<v Speaker 2>the case of the Black Dahlia ever being solved is

1143
00:59:32.440 --> 00:59:37.239
<v Speaker 2>almost non Elizabeth has become an icon in her time,

1144
00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:41.320
<v Speaker 2>her tragic story and beauty overtaking the world of crime

1145
00:59:41.440 --> 00:59:44.480
<v Speaker 2>and mystery for what is sure to be years to come.

1146
00:59:45.239 --> 00:59:51.920
<v Speaker 2>And that is all we know. Wow, that is Elizabeth's

1147
00:59:51.920 --> 00:59:55.519
<v Speaker 2>short story, or the Tale of the Black Dahlia.

1148
00:59:56.960 --> 01:00:01.000
<v Speaker 1>Dang I want this to be solved. Hm, my brain's

1149
01:00:01.039 --> 01:00:01.880
<v Speaker 1>gore a mile minute.

1150
01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:06.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Like I said, there are a million different paths

1151
01:00:06.920 --> 01:00:10.559
<v Speaker 2>to dive down on this. There is information for days.

1152
01:00:11.039 --> 01:00:12.559
<v Speaker 2>If you guys dive in on this, you find some

1153
01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:15.119
<v Speaker 2>new information or something, please hit us up. That'd be awesome.

1154
01:00:15.800 --> 01:00:17.360
<v Speaker 2>And of course hit us up. Let us know what

1155
01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:21.360
<v Speaker 2>you think. Who do you think is the Black Doll Avenger?

1156
01:00:21.719 --> 01:00:23.119
<v Speaker 2>According to the letters anyways?

1157
01:00:23.440 --> 01:00:26.440
<v Speaker 1>Because they Oh, there's my books, movies and stuff like.

1158
01:00:26.519 --> 01:00:29.719
<v Speaker 2>Everything that you can watch, right, Yeah, multiple books, there

1159
01:00:29.800 --> 01:00:35.599
<v Speaker 2>is at least one recent movie starring Scarlett Johansson. There

1160
01:00:35.639 --> 01:00:40.440
<v Speaker 2>are documentaries, there's subreddits, there's forums. Oh, my god, for

1161
01:00:40.559 --> 01:00:46.920
<v Speaker 2>days for days. Well, look at Steve Hodell researching this

1162
01:00:47.039 --> 01:00:48.280
<v Speaker 2>on his father for years.

1163
01:00:48.559 --> 01:00:52.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so wow, interesting, well done, well done.

1164
01:00:53.000 --> 01:01:00.599
<v Speaker 2>So yeah. I I'm really conflicted with the Eizabeth short

1165
01:01:00.639 --> 01:01:06.039
<v Speaker 2>because I I want her to be remembered, but I

1166
01:01:06.039 --> 01:01:09.280
<v Speaker 2>also don't because it seems like that's just what George wanted,

1167
01:01:10.440 --> 01:01:13.599
<v Speaker 2>if it was George, if those theories are accurate, which

1168
01:01:13.639 --> 01:01:15.400
<v Speaker 2>it to me it seems like it is.

1169
01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:17.960
<v Speaker 1>It does seem very logical. It could be that one,

1170
01:01:17.960 --> 01:01:18.400
<v Speaker 1>doesn't it.

1171
01:01:18.880 --> 01:01:21.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's fucked up regardless though.

1172
01:01:21.840 --> 01:01:25.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's so fucked up. Yeah, brutal.

1173
01:01:25.400 --> 01:01:28.039
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, you guys, thank you for listening. If you

1174
01:01:28.039 --> 01:01:29.760
<v Speaker 2>want to sign up for Patreon, you want to follow

1175
01:01:29.800 --> 01:01:32.440
<v Speaker 2>us on Instagram, Facebook, or whatever. All the stuff is

1176
01:01:32.519 --> 01:01:34.239
<v Speaker 2>down in the show notes below and the little description.

1177
01:01:34.639 --> 01:01:36.280
<v Speaker 2>You can even go buy merch if you want.

1178
01:01:36.760 --> 01:01:37.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we have some sweet merch.

1179
01:01:38.039 --> 01:01:39.280
<v Speaker 2>We do even blankets.

1180
01:01:39.559 --> 01:01:42.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, t shirts or notebooks into the blankets lately.

1181
01:01:42.800 --> 01:01:44.599
<v Speaker 2>Actually the blankets are sick though too.

1182
01:01:44.800 --> 01:01:46.280
<v Speaker 1>They are oh really cool.

1183
01:01:46.320 --> 01:01:50.039
<v Speaker 2>Side note on my own Facebook, I had a ad

1184
01:01:50.039 --> 01:01:53.360
<v Speaker 2>for Red Bubble pop up advertising our own blanket to me.

1185
01:01:53.519 --> 01:01:55.320
<v Speaker 1>Yep, you thought that was super sweet.

1186
01:01:55.440 --> 01:01:58.360
<v Speaker 2>It's probably because I was on Red Bubble already clicking

1187
01:01:58.360 --> 01:02:01.400
<v Speaker 2>on her blanket and shit. But still it was awesome.

1188
01:02:01.519 --> 01:02:03.119
<v Speaker 1>No, no, that's not why it was there.

1189
01:02:03.559 --> 01:02:06.760
<v Speaker 2>Definitely not. But yes, thank you guys. Go check out

1190
01:02:06.760 --> 01:02:09.920
<v Speaker 2>the blankets merch or Instagram whatever, even if you're just

1191
01:02:09.920 --> 01:02:12.400
<v Speaker 2>going to listen to the next episode or episodes prior.

1192
01:02:12.559 --> 01:02:14.320
<v Speaker 2>We appreciate it, even if it was just this one.

1193
01:02:14.559 --> 01:02:15.960
<v Speaker 2>You're awesome and you're wicked.

1194
01:02:16.800 --> 01:02:18.920
<v Speaker 1>Thank you day Wicked