1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: Right now, like, at this exact, very moment, the complex 2 00:00:03,359 --> 00:00:08,599 mathematical algorithms that astronomers originally designed to well to stare 3 00:00:08,759 --> 00:00:12,119 into the terrifying, totally invisible abyss of a black hole, 4 00:00:12,679 --> 00:00:16,160 those same algorithms are actually being used in a hospital, 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,000 probably down the street from you, to find a microscopic 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:20,559 tumor in a human lung. 7 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I mean, it is one of the most 8 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,359 profound paradoxes of human civilization. 9 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:26,719 Speaker 1: That's totally insane. How did that even happen? 10 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,879 Speaker 2: Well, it happened because we were looking for aliens. We 11 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,840 hurl our most advanced technology into the cold, you know, 12 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,600 seemingly empty void of space, searching for something that is 13 00:00:36,759 --> 00:00:39,920 entirely disconnected from our daily survival, right and in the 14 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,679 process we sort of accidentally invent the exact tools that 15 00:00:42,719 --> 00:00:43,920 save our lives here on Earth. 16 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: It blows my mind. But anyway, welcome to thrilling threads. 17 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,200 Today we are taking hold of a massively complex, intertwining 18 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,920 thread that connects the uh the microscopic chemistry of distant planets, 19 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,880 to the deepest, honestly most fragile parts of human psychology. 20 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 2: Absolutely weirdd on some truly staggering insights from astrophysicists Sarah Seger. 21 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:04,920 Today we are. 22 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: But I want to make something incredibly clear right from 23 00:01:07,239 --> 00:01:10,840 the start for you listening, this edition of Thrilling Threads 24 00:01:11,079 --> 00:01:15,040 is not It's not some whimsical conversation about little green 25 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,200 men or you know, blurry UFO sightings, right, No, tinfoil hats. 26 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:26,280 Today exactly we are talking about the impending, literal, world shattering, 27 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,280 philosophical earthquake that is going to strike humanity when we 28 00:01:30,359 --> 00:01:33,400 finally find definitive proof of life beyond Earth. 29 00:01:33,719 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 2: Because the hunt is no longer just theoretical, is it. 30 00:01:36,599 --> 00:01:39,719 Speaker 1: No, not at all. The math, the chemistry, the sheer 31 00:01:39,719 --> 00:01:42,680 scale of our observations right now, they're closing in on 32 00:01:42,719 --> 00:01:46,599 a reality that will force us to completely dismantle everything 33 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:48,400 we believe about our place in the universe. 34 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: And that really is the crux of Seger's work and 35 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,519 honestly the core of our discussion today. Yeah, the scientific 36 00:01:53,519 --> 00:01:56,280 community is currently standing on the precipice of a paradigm 37 00:01:56,359 --> 00:02:00,480 shift so severe that it well, it basically threatens the 38 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,760 very foundation of human exceptionalism. 39 00:02:02,879 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: Wow, human exceptionalism, right. 40 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 2: Because we're so accustomed to viewing the cosmos as this 41 00:02:07,959 --> 00:02:11,960 magnificent but passive backdrop to the drama of human history, 42 00:02:12,199 --> 00:02:12,800 like it's just. 43 00:02:12,759 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: A painted sky for our specific play exactly. 44 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,159 Speaker 2: We think we're the main event, but the data we 45 00:02:19,199 --> 00:02:23,000 are receiving from our telescopes and probes right now, it's 46 00:02:23,039 --> 00:02:25,240 painting a very, very different picture. 47 00:02:25,319 --> 00:02:26,879 Speaker 1: It's a picture of a crowded stage. 48 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:31,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, a crowded stage where humanity might honestly merely be 49 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:32,719 a background extra. 50 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: Okay, So to really grasp the magnitude of this shock 51 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,840 wave that's heading for you, the listener, we have to 52 00:02:39,879 --> 00:02:43,319 start by looking at the actual physical mechanics of the 53 00:02:43,319 --> 00:02:47,280 search that's happening right now, like in our own cosmic backyard. 54 00:02:46,879 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 2: Which is fascinating because we aren't just scanning the sky 55 00:02:49,439 --> 00:02:51,000 for radio signals anywhere. 56 00:02:50,719 --> 00:02:52,879 Speaker 1: Right the old SETI approach. We're actually looking for something 57 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,280 called a second genesis. And I want to pause here 58 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,479 because well, this term gets thrown around a lot in 59 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,319 popular science. Right here, coctuli, but we need to understand 60 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,439 the actual biological and chemical mechanics of what that means. 61 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,479 Why is a second genesis the Holy Grail? 62 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 2: Well, to understand the second Genesis, we first have to 63 00:03:09,599 --> 00:03:14,280 understand the sheer stubbornness of the first genesis. 64 00:03:13,759 --> 00:03:14,879 Speaker 1: So one that created us. 65 00:03:15,159 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 2: Exactly, every single living thing on Earth, from the bacteria 66 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,439 in your gut to the blue whale in the ocean 67 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,159 to the oak tree in your front yard, right, they 68 00:03:24,199 --> 00:03:28,680 all share the exact same underlying biological architecture. We all use. 69 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: DNA and RNA, we all use the same basic set 70 00:03:32,039 --> 00:03:35,000 of amino acids to build proteins. We do, so it's 71 00:03:35,039 --> 00:03:38,560 like we're all running on the exact same operating system precisely. 72 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it. And in chemistry, 73 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,520 there is this fascinating concept called chirality. 74 00:03:45,039 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: Chirality, Okay, what is that? 75 00:03:46,479 --> 00:03:50,479 Speaker 2: It basically means handedness. Molecules can be structured in a 76 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,360 way that they are exact mirror images of each other, 77 00:03:53,599 --> 00:03:55,280 kind of like your left and right hand. Okay, so 78 00:03:55,319 --> 00:03:57,960 they have all the same components, but you can't perfectly 79 00:03:58,000 --> 00:03:59,560 superimpose them on top of one. 80 00:03:59,479 --> 00:04:01,879 Speaker 1: Another, like trying to put a left glove on a 81 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:02,400 right hand. 82 00:04:02,479 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: Exactly now here on Earth, almost all biological amino acids 83 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,319 are left handed, and all biological sugars are right handed. 84 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: Kay, really, is there a reason for that? 85 00:04:11,159 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 2: Well? No, there's no fundamental law of physics that says 86 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,279 it has to be this way. It's just the random 87 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,040 chemical choice that our specific tree of life made, you know, 88 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:23,040 billions of years ago. 89 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: Okay, So let me make sure I'm getting this. If 90 00:04:24,879 --> 00:04:27,600 we send a rover up to Mars, right, Yeah, and 91 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,199 it scoops up a microbe in the dirt, and we 92 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,759 analyze that microbe and we find that it uses DNA 93 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,519 and it uses left handed amino acids, what does that 94 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:38,480 actually tell us? 95 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,439 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it would be an incredible discovery obviously, 96 00:04:41,759 --> 00:04:44,279 but scientifically it would be highly ambiguous. 97 00:04:44,319 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: Ambiguous. Finding life on Mars would be. 98 00:04:46,319 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 2: Ambiguous scientifically speaking, yes, because planets actually exchange material. 99 00:04:51,519 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: Oh, like meteorites. 100 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 2: Right. Meteorites blast off the surface of Earth when we 101 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,720 get hit by massive asteroids, and some of those rocks 102 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:58,839 eventually land on Mars. 103 00:04:59,000 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: Ah. 104 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,399 Speaker 2: So if we find a microbe on Mars with our 105 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,279 exact chemical signature, our left handed amino acids and DNA, 106 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:11,240 the most logical conservative explanation is that it's simply a hitchhiker. 107 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:13,879 Speaker 1: It's just Earth life that took a really rough trip 108 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,000 through the Solar System a few billion years ago. 109 00:05:16,319 --> 00:05:19,879 Speaker 2: Exactly. It doesn't actually prove the universe's teeming with life. 110 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,800 It just proves that life can survive a very very 111 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:23,680 rough commute. 112 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 1: Okay, so this is where the operating system analogy really 113 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,279 clicks for me. What's your Finding a microbe on Mars 114 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,720 with our DNA is like, it's like finding an alien 115 00:05:32,759 --> 00:05:34,680 computer buried in the sand, but when you boot it 116 00:05:34,759 --> 00:05:37,199 up it runs Windows ninety five. Right, it just means 117 00:05:37,199 --> 00:05:38,759 someone from Earth probably left it. 118 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,639 Speaker 2: There, exactly. But a second genesis is entirely different. 119 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,519 Speaker 1: Because it wouldn't be a Windows ninety five right. 120 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 2: Finding a microbe that operates on a completely alien chemical structure, 121 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,600 say it uses right handed amino acids, or maybe it 122 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:54,120 uses a liquid solvent other. 123 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,879 Speaker 1: Than water, like what liquid methane? 124 00:05:56,959 --> 00:05:59,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, like liquid methane. If you find that, that 125 00:06:00,199 --> 00:06:01,639 is the moment everything changes. 126 00:06:01,439 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: Because there's no way it came from Earth exactly. 127 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 2: That is the second genesis. If you find a completely 128 00:06:07,399 --> 00:06:11,439 different chemical operating system, you have definitive proof that life 129 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:16,040 emerged independently a second time, entirely from scratch. It means 130 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,839 life wasn't just this miraculous one off fluke that required 131 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,439 the exact perfect impossible conditions of early Earth. 132 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: It proves that biology is just a standard fundamental property 133 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:28,079 of the universe. 134 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,439 Speaker 2: Yes, just like gravity or thermodynamics. If you have the 135 00:06:31,519 --> 00:06:35,120 right raw materials and a little bit of energy, the 136 00:06:35,199 --> 00:06:37,920 universe naturally organizes itself into living things. 137 00:06:37,959 --> 00:06:40,759 Speaker 1: Man. It's like, Okay, imagine you flick on the lights 138 00:06:40,759 --> 00:06:42,879 in your kitchen at night, okay, and you see one 139 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,199 type of bug screwing by the fridge. You might think, oh, 140 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:47,680 bug got in. But if you look up and see 141 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,600 a completely different, genetically distinct type of bug crawling on 142 00:06:51,639 --> 00:06:52,560 the ceiling. 143 00:06:52,319 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 2: Right, you don't just have a couple of wandering. 144 00:06:53,959 --> 00:06:56,639 Speaker 1: Insects exactly, you have a totally infested house. 145 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 2: That's a disturbing but very accurate And the house we 146 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,240 are currently inspecting, our own solar system, is presenting us 147 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,439 with environments that are deeply, deeply provocative. 148 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: Because we aren't just looking at the dry, dusty surface 149 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:13,800 of Mars anymore, are we. 150 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,279 Speaker 2: No, we're not. Though we have found complex organic molecules there, 151 00:07:18,519 --> 00:07:22,720 and we strongly suspect there are liquid water reservoirs deep underground, 152 00:07:22,959 --> 00:07:24,800 you know, protected from the radiation, right. 153 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,399 Speaker 1: But the search has expanded way beyond that to places 154 00:07:27,399 --> 00:07:30,040 that frankly challenge our very definition. 155 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 2: Of habitability, which brings us to Venus. 156 00:07:32,079 --> 00:07:36,639 Speaker 1: Okay, Venus. Venus is by all human metrics. Venus is 157 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:41,439 an absolute healthscape. The surface pressure is like ninety times 158 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,120 that of Earth. It would crush a nuclear submarine like 159 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,319 a tin can easily. The temperature is high enough to 160 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:53,399 melt lead. It literally rains sulfuric acid. And yet scientists 161 00:07:53,439 --> 00:07:56,000 are looking at Venus as a prime candidate for life. 162 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:57,560 How does that make any sense at all? 163 00:07:57,639 --> 00:07:59,279 Speaker 2: Well, it makes sense when you stop looking at the 164 00:07:59,319 --> 00:08:02,600 surface and you start looking at the atmosphere. Roughly fifty 165 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,560 kilometers above the surface of Venus, there's a sweet spot. 166 00:08:06,439 --> 00:08:10,079 The pressure drops to match Earth's sea level pressure, and 167 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,399 the temperature cools down to a completely comfortable range like 168 00:08:13,519 --> 00:08:17,240 Rouen temperature. Yeah, basically, and in that specific cloud layer 169 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,000 you have liquid droplets. 170 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,079 Speaker 1: Okay, but wait, aren't those droplets made of sulfuric acid? 171 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,759 Speaker 2: They are. They are droplets of sulfuric acid mixed with 172 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,000 a little water, which is incredibly hostile to life as 173 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:28,439 we know it. 174 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds terrible. 175 00:08:30,079 --> 00:08:33,399 Speaker 2: But remember the second genesis. Alien life doesn't need to 176 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,440 play by Earth's rules, and we have recently detected traces 177 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:42,200 of gases in those clouds, specifically phosphine phosphene right, and 178 00:08:42,279 --> 00:08:46,840 on Earth, phosphine is strictly associated with biological processes. 179 00:08:46,879 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: Wait, hold on, break that down for me. Why is 180 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,320 one specific gas a red flag for biology? 181 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,519 Speaker 2: Well, phosphine is a molecule made of one phosphorus atom 182 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,360 and three hydrogen atomska, and it is incredibly difficul to 183 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,879 make naturally on a rocky planet. Fast firuts and hydrogen 184 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,559 just don't really want to bond together unless they are 185 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,399 forced to under immense energy, like you know, in the 186 00:09:09,399 --> 00:09:11,399 crushing depths of a gas giant like Jupiter. 187 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,159 Speaker 1: Oh so it shouldn't just be floating around on a 188 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,159 rocky planet like Venus. 189 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: Exactly, unless it's forced by biological organisms that use energy 190 00:09:19,519 --> 00:09:21,080 to create that chemical reaction. 191 00:09:21,279 --> 00:09:23,039 Speaker 1: Okay, so where do we find it? On Earth? 192 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,759 Speaker 2: We manufacture it industrially, but it's also produced naturally by 193 00:09:26,879 --> 00:09:30,240 anaerobic microbes bacteria that don't need oxygen like where, like 194 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:35,159 those found in swamps, or weirdly enough, the guts of penguins. Okay, yeah, 195 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,120 so finding phosphene on a rocky planet like Venus, where 196 00:09:39,159 --> 00:09:42,960 it should rapidly break down in that acidic atmosphere. It 197 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,879 suggests something might be continuously producing it. Wow, it's not 198 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,960 definitive proof of life, but it is a massive, glowing 199 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,639 anomaly that absolutely demands an explanation. 200 00:09:53,919 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: I got to say, it is almost scarier to me 201 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,720 if we find life floating in the toxic, acidic clouds 202 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,399 of v Venus then if we find ancient buried ruins 203 00:10:03,399 --> 00:10:03,919 on Mars. 204 00:10:04,279 --> 00:10:05,399 Speaker 2: Really, why is that? 205 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: Because Mars is at least somewhat familiar. It's a rock 206 00:10:07,639 --> 00:10:09,879 with some ice. It's like a really bad desert. But 207 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,679 if life can find a mechanism to emerge and actually 208 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:17,039 survive in the hyperacidic atmospheric layers of Venus, yeah, what 209 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,600 does that say about the sheer, terrifying resilience of biology. 210 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 2: It says that life is not some fragile, delicate little 211 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,200 flower that needs a perfect garden to bloom exactly. It 212 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,720 suggests life is an aggressive, opportunistic infection of the cosmos. 213 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,919 Speaker 1: I love that phrase, an opportunistic infection. 214 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,799 Speaker 2: And we see the same aggressive potential when we look 215 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,840 away from the Sun out toward the gas giants. 216 00:10:39,519 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: Right Jupiter and Saturn. 217 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're surrounded by these icy moons Europa and selad 218 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,559 as Titan. For a really long time, we just assumed 219 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,639 these moons were dead frozen rocks because they're. 220 00:10:51,519 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: So incredibly far from the warmth of the Sun. They're 221 00:10:54,279 --> 00:10:57,720 way outside the traditional habitable zone where liquid water can 222 00:10:57,759 --> 00:10:58,720 exist on a surface. 223 00:10:58,879 --> 00:11:01,919 Speaker 2: Exactly. We completely failed to account for gravity. 224 00:11:02,039 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: Gravity generates heat. 225 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 2: It does in this context, these moons are locked in 226 00:11:07,039 --> 00:11:09,919 a massive gravitational tug of war with their host planets 227 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,080 and the other surrounding boons. Okay, this constant pulling and 228 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,679 squeezing literally stretches the moons. It generates immense internal friction, 229 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:19,320 a process we call tidal heating. 230 00:11:19,759 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 1: So it's like bending a paper clip back and forth 231 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:22,399 until it gets hot. 232 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 2: That's a perfect analogy. The friction melts the ice from 233 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,799 the inside out. We now know, beyond a shadow of 234 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,440 a doubt, that beneath the miles of frozen crust on 235 00:11:31,519 --> 00:11:35,720 moons like Enceladus, there are vast global liquid water oceans. 236 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,159 Speaker 1: And we are just guessing about this right Like, we've 237 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,360 literally flown spacecraft through the water. 238 00:11:40,519 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 2: We absolutely have. The Cassini spacecraft flew right through these 239 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,120 massive plumes of water vapor that Enceladus was shooting out 240 00:11:48,159 --> 00:11:50,279 into space through cracks in its. 241 00:11:50,159 --> 00:11:53,759 Speaker 1: Ice, just geysers of ocean water blasting into space. 242 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and Cassini actually analyzed that water. It essentially tasted it. 243 00:11:58,559 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: And what did it find. 244 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 2: It found salt, It found complex organic molecules, and crucially, 245 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,519 it found silica nanoparticles. 246 00:12:06,879 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: Why is silica important because it. 247 00:12:09,039 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 2: Strongly indicates the presence of hydrothermal vents at the bottom 248 00:12:12,159 --> 00:12:14,120 of that dark alien. 249 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,639 Speaker 1: Ocean, hydrothermal vents, which is exactly where many biologists believe 250 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,039 life may have originated right here on Earth. 251 00:12:19,799 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 2: Exactly deep in the pitch black ocean, completely independent of sunlight, 252 00:12:24,399 --> 00:12:26,960 just feeding off the chemical energy of the planet itself. 253 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: So if we put all these pieces together, the complex 254 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,919 organics on Mars, the atmospheric anomalies on Venus, the chemical 255 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,559 rich subsurface oceans of the outer moons. 256 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,519 Speaker 2: The scientific momentum is pointing in one overwhelming direction. 257 00:12:39,799 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: The universe possesses all the ingredients, the energy, and the 258 00:12:43,039 --> 00:12:45,360 diverse environments required for biology. 259 00:12:45,519 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 2: Right and if a second genesis has occurred, the math 260 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,600 just scales up exponentially. 261 00:12:49,919 --> 00:12:53,639 Speaker 1: Because there are billions of stars in our galaxy, each 262 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:55,200 with their own planet exactly. 263 00:12:55,559 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 2: The conclusion is unavoidable. Somewhere out there, intelligent life like exists, 264 00:13:01,159 --> 00:13:04,279 and humanity is hurtling toward a moment where we will 265 00:13:04,279 --> 00:13:07,360 have to psychologically process that reality. 266 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: Which brings us to the psychological earthquake. 267 00:13:09,159 --> 00:13:11,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is where it gets really messy. 268 00:13:11,039 --> 00:13:14,759 Speaker 1: For you, the listener. Consider how this fundamentally shifts your 269 00:13:14,759 --> 00:13:19,120 personal cosmology. The universe goes from being a cold, dead, 270 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:24,159 sterile museum where Earth is the only exhibit, to a vibrant, chaotic, 271 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,240 deeply crowded jungle. You aren't standing alone in an empty room. 272 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,720 You are standing in a forest, and you realize the 273 00:13:30,759 --> 00:13:31,720 trees are full of eyes. 274 00:13:31,799 --> 00:13:33,879 Speaker 2: That is a haunting image. 275 00:13:33,399 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: But as a real world story, it perfectly illustrates. Human 276 00:13:36,879 --> 00:13:40,240 beings really really hate the idea that we aren't the 277 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:41,279 center of the universe. 278 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 2: We despise it. Our entire cognitive framework is basically structured 279 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,799 around human exceptionalism. And this brings us to a deeply 280 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:53,279 revealing anecdote shared by Sarah Seeger a number of years ago. 281 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:54,960 She traveled to thunder Bay, Ontario. 282 00:13:55,159 --> 00:13:56,039 Speaker 1: Okay, thunder Bay. 283 00:13:56,159 --> 00:13:58,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, she went there to serve as the keynote speaker 284 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,000 for the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada. 285 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: Oh so a pretty prestigious event. 286 00:14:03,399 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 2: Very it draws people who were deeply invested in the 287 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:07,320 science of the cosmos. 288 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,799 Speaker 1: But the real revelation didn't happen on the stage, did it. 289 00:14:10,039 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 2: No, it didn't. It happened in a living room. While 290 00:14:13,159 --> 00:14:15,519 she was in thunder Bay, Seger was billeted by a 291 00:14:15,519 --> 00:14:19,200 woman she affectionately described as oh spunky widow. 292 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: A spunky widow, I love that, right, And. 293 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,879 Speaker 2: This widow is a devout Catholic, heavily involved in her 294 00:14:24,879 --> 00:14:28,240 local community, and she was very eager for Seger to 295 00:14:28,279 --> 00:14:31,960 meet her circle of friends. Okay, now, prior to Seger arriving, 296 00:14:32,279 --> 00:14:34,679 the widow had been trying to share some basic astronomy 297 00:14:34,679 --> 00:14:37,600 with her friends. She was trying to explain the simple, 298 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,320 scientifically verified fact that there are other planets out there 299 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:46,279 in the universe orbiting other stars, exo planets, exactly exoplanets. 300 00:14:46,519 --> 00:14:48,799 Speaker 1: I want to be really clear about this for the listener, though. 301 00:14:49,039 --> 00:14:51,720 We aren't talking about the widow telling her friends about 302 00:14:51,759 --> 00:14:55,919 little Green men or UFOs or alien civilizations right now. 303 00:14:55,799 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 2: No, not at all. She was simply telling them that 304 00:14:58,039 --> 00:14:58,879 other rocks. 305 00:14:58,639 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: Exist just of gas and rock orbiting distant suns, a 306 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,200 completely uncontroversial, basic astronomical fact. 307 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: And yet her friends flat out refuse to believe it. 308 00:15:09,919 --> 00:15:10,799 Speaker 1: They just deny it. 309 00:15:10,879 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 2: They actively deny the existence of other planets. They told 310 00:15:14,039 --> 00:15:16,879 the widow it simply wasn't true. Wow. And when Seger 311 00:15:16,919 --> 00:15:21,080 analyzes why they had this reaction, she hits on something profound. 312 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,679 The very concept of other planets presented a quote harsh 313 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:27,639 reality for their own system of thinking. 314 00:15:27,799 --> 00:15:29,919 Speaker 1: I need to pause you there, because the psychology of 315 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,679 this is just fascinating. Why is a sterile rock floating 316 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,240 a thousand light years away a threat to a person 317 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,440 sitting in a living room in Ontario. It screams of 318 00:15:39,559 --> 00:15:41,200 ultimate main character syndrome. 319 00:15:41,399 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: It is the absolute ultimate manifestation of it. Because for centuries, 320 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,120 our theological, philosophical, and legal frameworks have been built on 321 00:15:50,159 --> 00:15:53,440 a concept historically known as the Great chain of being. 322 00:15:53,759 --> 00:15:54,799 Speaker 1: The Great chain of being. 323 00:15:55,080 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 2: Yes, or at the very least, a deeply ingrained anthropocentrism, 324 00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:04,679 the idea that Earth is the sole stage for the 325 00:16:04,759 --> 00:16:06,240 grand cosmic drama. 326 00:16:06,559 --> 00:16:10,159 Speaker 1: God or the universe created this specific place just for us. 327 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,399 Speaker 2: Exactly if you introduce the reality of billions of other planets, 328 00:16:14,559 --> 00:16:18,159 you immediately dilute the uniqueness of the human narrative. 329 00:16:18,399 --> 00:16:21,279 Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, imagine you're sitting in a dark theater 330 00:16:21,759 --> 00:16:24,080 watching a movie that you've always been told as a 331 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,000 documentary about your life. Yukah, You're the star, but suddenly 332 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,399 the camera pans away and you realize you are just 333 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,799 an out of focus extra standing in the background of 334 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,440 a massive, sprawling epic that has absolutely nothing to do 335 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:34,639 with you. 336 00:16:34,879 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 2: Ye. 337 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,879 Speaker 1: The cognitive dissonance of that is physically painful because if 338 00:16:38,879 --> 00:16:41,879 there are other planets, well, what if there is other life? 339 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 2: Right? The question's just cascade. 340 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: What does that mean for human salvation? Are we the 341 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,000 only ones created in the divine image? Or is the 342 00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:49,960 divine image something completely alien? 343 00:16:50,159 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 2: It creates an immediate theological and philosophical crisis. So what happens. 344 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,159 The defense mechanism kicks in. Deny the rocks, exactly, deny 345 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,679 the rocks. If the exo planet don't exist, the crisis 346 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:02,159 goes away. 347 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: That is wild. So Seger is an elite astrophysicist. She 348 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:11,599 literally studies the atmospheric compositions of these exact planets for 349 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,039 a living right, And she's sitting in a living room 350 00:17:14,039 --> 00:17:18,799 with people who are actively aggressively denying that her entire 351 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,119 field of study even exists because it makes them uncomfortable. 352 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 2: Quite the dinner party. 353 00:17:23,559 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: How do you even handle that? Do you just start 354 00:17:25,519 --> 00:17:27,960 drawing orbital mechanics on a napkin? Do you pull up 355 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,759 the Kepler telescope data and say, look at the light 356 00:17:30,839 --> 00:17:32,559 transit dips you're wrong? 357 00:17:32,759 --> 00:17:35,319 Speaker 2: Well, see, that is exactly what a lot of scientists 358 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,279 would do, and it is exactly why a lot of 359 00:17:37,319 --> 00:17:38,880 science communication totally fail. 360 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: Oh, because it puts people on the defensive. 361 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,519 Speaker 2: Exactly, if someone's worldview is threatened, attacking them with raw 362 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,559 data only makes them build their defensive walls higher. 363 00:17:47,759 --> 00:17:48,039 Speaker 1: Right. 364 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,519 Speaker 2: This is where Seger demonstrated profound empathy and pedagogical brilliance. 365 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,960 She didn't mock them, she didn't bury them in spectral 366 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:56,920 analysis grafts. 367 00:17:57,079 --> 00:17:57,839 Speaker 1: So what did she do? 368 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,279 Speaker 2: The widow simply asked Seager to that her to explain 369 00:18:02,319 --> 00:18:06,279 to her friends that astronomy is a legitimate field and 370 00:18:06,319 --> 00:18:07,960 that she wasn't just making this up. 371 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: So Seger met them exactly where they were. 372 00:18:10,319 --> 00:18:14,319 Speaker 2: She did. She sat with them and gently legitimized the science. 373 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,240 She walked them through how we know what we know 374 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,319 without being condescending about it. Okay, she explained the methods, 375 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,880 and crucially, she also clearly stated the boundaries of our 376 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,559 current knowledge, meaning what she told them, Yes, we have 377 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,480 undeniable evidence of planets, but we do not have evidence 378 00:18:32,519 --> 00:18:34,279 of earthlike planets or life yet. 379 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,839 Speaker 1: Ah. So she gave them the truth, but she didn't 380 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,119 force them to confront the ultimate existential dread all at. 381 00:18:41,039 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 2: Once, exactly, and the result of that empathy was extraordinary. 382 00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:46,960 What happened, well, The source material was that this intervention 383 00:18:47,039 --> 00:18:49,559 had a massive impact. They ended up staying awake late 384 00:18:49,599 --> 00:18:52,279 into the night, just talking. The friends later referred to 385 00:18:52,319 --> 00:18:54,880 this deep, late night conversation as the awakening. 386 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:56,039 Speaker 1: The awakening. Wow. 387 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, they accepted the reality of the planets, and they 388 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,759 began the incredibly difficult, uncomfortable work of regrouping their own 389 00:19:03,839 --> 00:19:07,279 theological thinking to accommodate this larger universe. 390 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: The awakening is a beautiful term for it. It implies 391 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,759 moving from a state of comfortable sleep into a startling 392 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,119 but you know, ultimately more authentic reality. 393 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:18,599 Speaker 2: It really does, but it also. 394 00:19:18,519 --> 00:19:21,519 Speaker 1: Raises a terrifying question for anyone listening. Think about this. 395 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,440 A group of well adjusted adults experienced a miniature existential 396 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,759 crisis and had to completely restructure their worldview just over 397 00:19:30,799 --> 00:19:32,039 the existence. 398 00:19:31,519 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 2: Of empty rock empty sterile rocks. 399 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:36,319 Speaker 1: Yes, what is going to happen when we find the 400 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:36,920 real deal? 401 00:19:37,039 --> 00:19:38,319 Speaker 2: That's the billion dollar question. 402 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,599 Speaker 1: If society panics over barren planets, the discovery of actual, 403 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,599 definitive biological life, let alone intelligent life, is going to 404 00:19:46,599 --> 00:19:49,640 be a psychological earthquake that fractures our global institutions. 405 00:19:50,039 --> 00:19:54,039 Speaker 2: It is the ultimate test of human adaptability. If we 406 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:58,440 extrapolate that living room in Thunder Bay to the global stage, 407 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:02,359 we are looking at a scenario where major world religions, 408 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:07,319 governmental bodies, and philosophical schools will face an immediate crisis 409 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,039 of relevance. Oh absolutely, How do you preach human supremacy 410 00:20:11,559 --> 00:20:14,960 in a universe where we might be the cosmic equivalent 411 00:20:15,079 --> 00:20:17,400 of an ant hill next to a super highway? 412 00:20:17,599 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: Right? And how do geopolitical conflicts over tiny strips of 413 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,240 land on Earth feel When we realize we are surrounded 414 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:25,799 by a biological. 415 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 2: Galaxy, It shrinks everything down. 416 00:20:27,319 --> 00:20:30,039 Speaker 1: I can just imagine the theological gymnastics. It won't just 417 00:20:30,039 --> 00:20:31,880 be a press conference at NASA. It's going to be 418 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,599 a crisis of meaning for billions of people. 419 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. 420 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: But you know, when we talk about this impending shockwave, 421 00:20:37,799 --> 00:20:39,640 I think we are heavily influenced by movies. 422 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,039 Speaker 2: Oh, definitely, Hollywood has ruined our expectations. 423 00:20:42,079 --> 00:20:44,319 Speaker 1: We have this image ingrained in our heads of how 424 00:20:44,599 --> 00:20:47,079 first contact or the discovery of life is going to 425 00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:49,799 go down. Like the President interrupts the Super Bowl, looks 426 00:20:49,799 --> 00:20:52,599 into the camera and says, my fellow Americans, we are 427 00:20:52,599 --> 00:20:53,160 not alone. 428 00:20:53,279 --> 00:20:54,799 Speaker 2: Right, Cue the dramatic music. 429 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: People panic in the streets. UFO cults emerge overnight, and 430 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,079 by Tuesday, human history is fundamentally severed into a before 431 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:03,759 and after. 432 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 2: It is a super compelling narrative, but historically speaking, it 433 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:10,480 is completely inaccurate. 434 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: Really. 435 00:21:11,079 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. To understand how humanity will likely process the discovery 436 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,720 of alien life, we have to look backward at how 437 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,720 we have processed massive paradigm shifts in the past. Okay, 438 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:27,279 Segar draws a brilliant, highly instructive parallel to Nicholas Copernicus. 439 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,079 Speaker 1: The Copernican Revolution, the moment we realize the Earth wasn't 440 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:31,480 the center of the universe. 441 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 2: Exactly prior to Copernicus, the dominant universally accepted model of 442 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,400 the cosmos was the Ptolemaic system. It was geocentric, erst 443 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,000 in the middle right, Earth sat entirely motionless at the 444 00:21:42,039 --> 00:21:45,599 dead center of creation, and the Moon, the Sun, the planets, 445 00:21:45,599 --> 00:21:48,640 and all the stars revolved around us in these perfect 446 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:49,799 crystalline spheres. 447 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: It was the ultimate validation of that great chain of 448 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,160 being we just talked about. The physics perfectly matched the theology. 449 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,119 God put us in the center. So obviously everything revolves 450 00:21:58,119 --> 00:21:58,640 around us. 451 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,559 Speaker 2: And it wasn't just a religion belief either. It was 452 00:22:01,559 --> 00:22:04,359 the established science of the day, backed by the immense 453 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,240 political and cultural power of the Catholic Church. So to 454 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,799 challenge it, to challenge it wasn't just to challenge a 455 00:22:09,799 --> 00:22:12,079 math equation. It was to challenge the authority of the 456 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,880 Church and the divine order of humanity itself. 457 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: Wow. 458 00:22:16,319 --> 00:22:21,519 Speaker 2: So when Copernicus formulated his heliocentric model, the radical mathematical 459 00:22:21,599 --> 00:22:24,480 proof that the Earth is actually a planet hurtling through 460 00:22:24,519 --> 00:22:25,519 space orbiting the. 461 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: Sun, he knew exactly how dangerous that idea was. 462 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 2: Oh, he was terrified. He was so terrified of the 463 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,480 backlash that he basically refused to polish his masterpiece to 464 00:22:34,599 --> 00:22:38,359 Revolutionibus until he was literally on his deathbed in fifteen 465 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:38,960 forty three. 466 00:22:39,079 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: He knew it was heresy. He knew it would shatter 467 00:22:41,319 --> 00:22:44,559 the worldview of the spunky widows of the sixteenth century. 468 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 2: He absolutely did. But here's the critical point Seeker makes 469 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,799 about this monumental shift in human understanding. What's that There 470 00:22:51,839 --> 00:22:57,000 was no cinematic overnight revolution. Copernicus published the book, and 471 00:22:57,079 --> 00:23:00,359 the world did not instantly change. There was no single 472 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,079 Tuesday where the peasants of Europe woke up, slapped their 473 00:23:04,079 --> 00:23:06,400 foreheads and said, oh wow, the Earth goes around the sun. 474 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,200 How exciting. Our entire worldview is different now. 475 00:23:09,279 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: So the Hollywood narrative is just a lie completely. We 476 00:23:12,799 --> 00:23:15,839 love the Eureka moment in human culture, don't we. We 477 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,119 love the idea of the lone genius holding up a 478 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,079 piece of paper and suddenly the crowd gasps, the music swells, 479 00:23:22,079 --> 00:23:24,240 and a new era of enlightenment begins. 480 00:23:24,319 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 2: It's a great story, but the reality is agonizingly slow. Yeah, 481 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,799 it is a generational grind. When Copernicus published his work, 482 00:23:32,039 --> 00:23:36,559 the reaction wasn't immediate acceptance. It was fierce entrenched resistance. 483 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,079 Speaker 1: EBA fought back hard. 484 00:23:38,519 --> 00:23:40,839 Speaker 2: It took decades for the math to even be taken 485 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,400 seriously by other astronomers, and when it did start gaining traction, 486 00:23:44,759 --> 00:23:49,720 the institutions doubled down. Decades later, Galileo built a telescope, 487 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,640 looked at Jupiter, saw moons orbiting it instead of Earth, 488 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:54,680 and championed the Copernican model. 489 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:55,839 Speaker 1: And what happened to him? 490 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 2: He was arrested, right, Yeah, He was tried by the 491 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,640 Inquisition in sixteen thirty three, found vehemently suspect of heresy, 492 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,559 forced to publicly recant his findings, and spent the rest 493 00:24:05,559 --> 00:24:06,880 of his life under house arrest. 494 00:24:07,279 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: The institutions doubled down on their defense mechanisms. They literally 495 00:24:11,279 --> 00:24:13,200 put the truth under house arrest. 496 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,599 Speaker 2: Exactly integrating a new reality that dismantles old power structures 497 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,119 requires immense societal friction. It took hundreds of years and 498 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,759 a mountain of definitive, unavoidable proof before the heliocentric model 499 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:28,640 fully permeated. 500 00:24:28,079 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: The culture, and Seeger is arguing that finding definitive signs 501 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,240 of extraterrestrial life is going to follow the exact same 502 00:24:34,279 --> 00:24:36,440 blueprint it really is. It is not going to be 503 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,720 a sudden flashpoint. It is going to be a slow, messy, 504 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,759 centuries long integration into our culture. 505 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 2: We have to analyze the psychological resistance to new paradigms. 506 00:24:47,079 --> 00:24:50,400 The physicist Max Planck famously coined what is now known 507 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:51,440 as Plank's principle. 508 00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:52,799 Speaker 1: Oh I've heard of this, yeah. 509 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,279 Speaker 2: He essentially said that a new scientific truth does not 510 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,319 triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, 511 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,200 but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new 512 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,359 generation grows up that is familiar with it. 513 00:25:04,559 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: Science advances one funeral at a time that is incredibly dark, 514 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,880 but it makes perfect sense. Generational die off is the 515 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:13,319 engine of paradigm shifts. 516 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 2: Exactly when we find the chemical signature of life on 517 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,200 an exoplanet, there will be immediate modern heresy. 518 00:25:20,279 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: Oh, there will be intense denial. 519 00:25:21,799 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 2: You will see counter studies funded by organizations that refuse 520 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:29,079 to accept the findings. Pundits will argue on television that 521 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,440 the data is flawed, that the atmospheric models are wrong, 522 00:25:32,839 --> 00:25:34,359 that the scientists are biased. 523 00:25:35,039 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: So how does the definitive proof actually permeate our modern culture? 524 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,839 Speaker 2: Slowly, the older generation that refuses to let go of 525 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,839 Earth's unique biological supremacy will eventually pass away, and the 526 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,440 new generation will simply be taught the existence of alien 527 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,599 microbes as a basic, somewhat boring fact in their fifth 528 00:25:52,599 --> 00:25:53,880 grade science textbooks. 529 00:25:54,079 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 1: I want to frame this for you, the listener, because 530 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,480 you might actually live through the beginning of this slow 531 00:25:58,519 --> 00:26:02,960 motion revolution. What about how you experience major historical shifts today? 532 00:26:03,079 --> 00:26:03,519 Speaker 2: Good point. 533 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: We are living through the adoption of artificial intelligence or 534 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,400 the undeniable realities of climate change. The data is there, 535 00:26:10,759 --> 00:26:14,319 the reality is practically undeniable to anyone looking at the numbers. 536 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:20,119 But the cultural absorption is incredibly messy. It's heavily politicized, 537 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,920 it's full of bad faith arguments, and it takes decades 538 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,079 to fully adapt our behavior and laws. 539 00:26:26,319 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 2: The discovery of extraterrestrial life will not feel like a 540 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,599 sci fi thriller. It will feel like a drawn out, 541 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,839 highly technical, incredibly bureaucratic debate. 542 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: Imagine your actual day. You are sitting on the train 543 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,799 on a Tuesday morning, commuting to a job you don't 544 00:26:39,799 --> 00:26:43,640 really love. You're drinking a lukewarm coffee, scrolling on your phone, 545 00:26:43,799 --> 00:26:48,519 and suddenly you see a push notification from NASA. Definitive 546 00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:52,240 bisignatures confirmed in the atmosphere of exoplanet K two eighteen 547 00:26:52,319 --> 00:26:57,039 B statistical certainty of biological activity ninety nine point nine percent. 548 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:58,519 Speaker 2: The biggest news in history. 549 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: It is, without hyperbole, the most significant discovery in the 550 00:27:01,519 --> 00:27:05,279 history of human civilization. It answers the oldest philosophical question 551 00:27:05,319 --> 00:27:06,440 we have ever asked. 552 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 2: As a species, And what do you do? 553 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,759 Speaker 1: You read the headline, You stare at it for a minute, 554 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,759 and then your train arrives at your stop. You put 555 00:27:14,759 --> 00:27:15,680 your phone in your pocket. 556 00:27:15,839 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 2: Still have to go to work. 557 00:27:16,759 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 1: You still have to go to work. You still have 558 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,240 to take your read By the first of the month, 559 00:27:19,279 --> 00:27:21,440 you still have to sit in a meaningless marketing meeting 560 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:27,839 at ten am. The profound, crushing anti climax of monumental 561 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,200 scientific discovery. 562 00:27:29,759 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 2: It is a striking juxtaposition that really highlights the duality 563 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:38,039 of the human condition. The universe expands infinitely in our minds, 564 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,680 our place in the cosmos is fundamentally rewritten, yet our 565 00:27:41,839 --> 00:27:48,480 daily earthly obligations remain entirely rigid and unchanged. The grand 566 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,519 revelation simply becomes background noise to the mundane reality of 567 00:27:52,599 --> 00:27:55,640 human survival. As Secer notes, it will just become another 568 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,039 part of our culture, digested over hundreds. 569 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 1: Of years, which brings up a really cynical, entirely fair question. 570 00:28:01,519 --> 00:28:02,279 Speaker 2: Okay, laying on me. 571 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,839 Speaker 1: If it takes three hundred years for society to accept 572 00:28:04,839 --> 00:28:08,359 the truth without throwing scientists into metaphorical house arrest, and 573 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,359 if the search itself causes existential dread, cultural friction, and 574 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,480 theological crises, why are we doing this? 575 00:28:16,759 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 2: That's the big question. 576 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 1: Why do we spend billions of dollars and dedicate the 577 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,400 greatest minds of our generation to looking up at all? 578 00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:27,799 Speaker 2: That is the eternal pragmatic question faced by every skeptic 579 00:28:27,839 --> 00:28:32,599 of space exploration. When there is rampant poverty, systemic disease, 580 00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:36,319 decaying infrastructure, and endless conflict on. 581 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,839 Speaker 1: Earth, how can we justify spending ten billion dollars on 582 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:41,319 the James Web space telescope? 583 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 2: Exactly? Well, the search for life in the stars lead 584 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,240 to any practical, immediate discoveries that help us here. 585 00:28:47,319 --> 00:28:49,559 Speaker 1: And what is Seeger's answer, Her. 586 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,119 Speaker 2: Brutally honest answer to that is it's all really to 587 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:52,759 be determined. 588 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,799 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but if I go to an investment board 589 00:28:54,839 --> 00:28:57,079 and say give me ten billion dollars and the return 590 00:28:57,119 --> 00:29:00,359 on investment is to be determined. I'm getting life out 591 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,640 of the room. Oh absolutely, that sounds like the worst 592 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:03,519 pitch in history. 593 00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 2: It does sound deeply counterintuitive to our modern, hyper capitalist, 594 00:29:08,279 --> 00:29:12,680 results driven mindset. We demand immediate quarterly returns on our investments. 595 00:29:13,039 --> 00:29:16,440 But this is where we must passionately defend the necessity 596 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,640 of the random walk through science. We have to understand 597 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:24,559 the fundamental philosophical difference between applied science and pure science. 598 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: Let's break that down. Applied science is goal oriented, right, yes. 599 00:29:28,039 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 2: Applied science is looking at a specific known problem, like 600 00:29:33,119 --> 00:29:37,279 trying to synthesize a specific enzyme to cure a specific 601 00:29:37,359 --> 00:29:41,319 type of leukemia, okay, or trying to engineer a stronger 602 00:29:41,319 --> 00:29:45,240 steel alloy to build a taller bridge, and working directly, 603 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,960 methodically toward that goal. You know what you want to achieve, 604 00:29:49,079 --> 00:29:50,920 and you fund the specific path to get there. 605 00:29:51,039 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: Makes sense and pure science. 606 00:29:52,839 --> 00:29:56,039 Speaker 2: Pure science, however, is entirely different. Pure science is simply 607 00:29:56,079 --> 00:29:58,680 pointing at something unknown and asking, what is that over there? 608 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,680 How does that work? Just curre It is human curiosity, 609 00:30:01,799 --> 00:30:04,880 completely untethered from a specific profitable outcome. 610 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: But history proves that pure science, this random walk of 611 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,839 just poking at the universe to see what happens actually 612 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,440 leads to incredibly great, completely unrelated world changing place oh constantly. 613 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:18,559 The source material gives us some mind blowing examples of this, 614 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,759 and I want to dig into the mechanics of these 615 00:30:20,799 --> 00:30:24,720 because the connections are almost unbelievable. Let's start with medicine. 616 00:30:24,799 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 2: Let's look at modern medical imaging. When you are a 617 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,400 loved one go to the hospital for an MRI a 618 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,920 magnetic resonance imaging scan to detect a torn ligament or 619 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,759 a tumor, you are relying on technology that was profoundly 620 00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:42,920 shaped by the random walk of astronomy. 621 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,599 Speaker 1: Wait, how does looking at stars translate to looking at 622 00:30:46,599 --> 00:30:47,640 a human kidney? 623 00:30:47,759 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 2: It comes down to the mathematics of signal processing. Decades ago, 624 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,799 radio astronomers had a massive problem. 625 00:30:54,079 --> 00:30:54,279 Speaker 1: Is it. 626 00:30:54,359 --> 00:30:56,839 Speaker 2: They were building giant radio dish arrays to listen to 627 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,319 the incredibly faint radio waves emitted by dist galaxies, quasars, 628 00:31:01,319 --> 00:31:04,960 and pulsars. Okay, but the universe is noisy, our atmosphere 629 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,640 is noisy, our electronics are noisy. 630 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,319 Speaker 1: So they're just getting static. 631 00:31:08,039 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 2: A ton of static. The astronomers were taking in massive 632 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,519 amounts of visible data, and they needed a mathematical way 633 00:31:14,519 --> 00:31:17,960 to filter out the useless background noise to isolate the tiny, 634 00:31:18,039 --> 00:31:20,160 pure signal of the star they actually wanted to. 635 00:31:20,079 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: Study and then convert that invisible data into a readable, 636 00:31:23,599 --> 00:31:25,000 comprehensible image. 637 00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:28,599 Speaker 2: Exactly. They needed to find a needle of data in 638 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:33,079 a massive haystack of cosmic static so they heavily utilized 639 00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:39,119 and refined complex mathematical algorithms, specifically Fouryer transforms to reconstruct 640 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,720 images from limited noisy data sets. 641 00:31:41,799 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: Okay, so that's the astronomy side. How does that get 642 00:31:44,279 --> 00:31:45,000 to the hospital? 643 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,039 Speaker 2: Fast forward to the medical field. Doctors wanted to use 644 00:31:48,039 --> 00:31:50,680 magnetic fields and radio ways to see inside the human 645 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,039 body without cutting it open, right the MRI. But the 646 00:31:54,119 --> 00:31:57,640 human body is mostly water and it's incredibly noisy on 647 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,160 a molecular level. The signals bouncing back from the hydrogen 648 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:02,640 atoms in your body are chaotic. 649 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: It's it's the exact same problem, exactly. 650 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 2: How do you filter out the noise of the surrounding 651 00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:11,319 tissue to isolate the specific, tiny signal of a tumor. 652 00:32:11,279 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: Use the exact same math the astronomers use to filter 653 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,039 out the cosmic noise to see the galaxy. 654 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 2: Precisely, the algorithms designed to see a swirling galaxy millions 655 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,640 of light years away are practically identical to the algorithms 656 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,400 used to reconstruct a three D image of a tumor 657 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:27,799 inside a human lung. 658 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,119 Speaker 1: That is wild. 659 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,839 Speaker 2: The astronomers weren't trying to cure cancer. They were just 660 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,599 curious about radio waves in space, but their random walk 661 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,720 provided the specific mathematical key that unlocked modern radiology. 662 00:32:39,839 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: That is an absolute miracle of unintended consequences. 663 00:32:43,079 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 2: It really is. 664 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: And Seeger points out another example that is perhaps the 665 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,039 most universally applicable to every single person listening right now, 666 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,480 GPS Global Positioning Systems. 667 00:32:52,559 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 2: Right. 668 00:32:53,039 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: I use GPS every single day. I use it to 669 00:32:55,799 --> 00:32:58,720 navigate traffic. I use it to find a coffee shop 670 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,440 that is literally three blocks away. We all do our 671 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:07,319 entire modern logistics grid, planes, ships, uber it all relies 672 00:33:07,359 --> 00:33:08,119 on GPS. 673 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 2: But as Seeger rightly points out, do you think someone 674 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,960 in the nineteen fifties sat down in a boardroom and planned, Hey, 675 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,359 we need to invent a global network of satellites communicating 676 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,880 with pocket sized supercomputers so that people can instantly find 677 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,720 the fastest route to the grocery store. 678 00:33:22,799 --> 00:33:23,519 Speaker 1: Absolutely not. 679 00:33:23,759 --> 00:33:27,319 Speaker 2: No, GPS was born from pure science, from people simply 680 00:33:27,359 --> 00:33:29,160 fooling around with rocketry and physics. 681 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:30,559 Speaker 1: They just wanted to see if they could launch a 682 00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:32,599 piece of metal fast enough to not fall back down. 683 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 2: It's exactly It started with Sputnik. When the Soviets launched Sputnik, 684 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,880 American scientists realized they could track it by listening to 685 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,799 the Doppler shift of its radio signals. Okay, if you 686 00:33:43,799 --> 00:33:46,839 know your exact location on Earth, you can track the satellite. 687 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,799 Then the pure scientists flipped the equation, if. 688 00:33:50,599 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: We know the exact location of the satellite, we can 689 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:54,559 track our location on Earth. 690 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 2: Yes, But the physics of making that actually work is 691 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,119 insane because it involves Einstein. 692 00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: It deeply involves Einstein's theories of relativity. 693 00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 2: Wait, really, how to. 694 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,519 Speaker 1: Make GPS work. You need incredibly precise atomic clocks on 695 00:34:10,559 --> 00:34:13,760 the satellites. But because the satellites are moving so fast 696 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,400 relative to the people on Earth, that's special relativity. Their 697 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,519 clocks actually tick slightly slower. 698 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:20,159 Speaker 2: Okay. 699 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 1: Furthermore, because the satellites are further away from the mass 700 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,880 of the Earth, they experience less gravity. That's general relativity, 701 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,039 which makes their clocks tick slightly faster. 702 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,199 Speaker 2: So time is literally moving at a different speed for 703 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,400 the satellite than it is for your phone in your car. 704 00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:38,559 Speaker 1: Yes, it's wild. And if the pure scientists, the theoretical 705 00:34:38,559 --> 00:34:41,360 physicists who are just thinking about the weird nature of 706 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:46,440 space and time decades earlier, hadn't formulated those equations, the 707 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,599 GPS system would fail completely. 708 00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 2: The errors would just build up. 709 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: The navigation error would accumulate by miles every single day. 710 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,280 GPS works because physicists were curious about the fabric of 711 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,519 space time, not because they wanted to improve tra flow. 712 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 2: This perfectly illustrates what I call the Tinkerer's garage analogy. 713 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: Oh I like that. Let's hear it. 714 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,599 Speaker 2: Imagine you have a garage and you only ever buy 715 00:35:08,639 --> 00:35:12,239 the exact tool to fix the exact plumbing or electrical 716 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,840 problem you have today. Okay, you buy a wrench to 717 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,239 fix the sink, you buy a screwdriver to fix the outlet. 718 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,360 You will be a very competent homeowner. But you will 719 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,400 only ever fix what is already broken. Right, You will 720 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,800 never ever invent anything new. To invent the future, you 721 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,159 have to buy weird parts. You have to buy random 722 00:35:30,199 --> 00:35:33,400 circuit boards, strange metals, and bizarre chemicals just to see 723 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:34,519 what they do when you combine them. 724 00:35:34,599 --> 00:35:36,079 Speaker 1: You have to tinker without a purpose. 725 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 2: That is the essence of pure science. Giant revolutionary leaps 726 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,320 forward for humanity are few and far between, and the 727 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,159 crucial takeaway is that they cannot be arrived at purposely. 728 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,079 Speaker 1: You can't just schedule a breakthrough exactly. 729 00:35:51,159 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 2: You cannot mandate a paradigm shift by setting a corporate goal. 730 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,920 You have to stumble into it in the dark, through 731 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:58,360 this random walk oft discovery. 732 00:35:58,519 --> 00:36:00,559 Speaker 1: So let me push you on this because it leads 733 00:36:00,599 --> 00:36:04,119 to a fascinating conclusion. Sure, is the search for aliens 734 00:36:04,199 --> 00:36:06,400 actually just a magnificent trojan horse? 735 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 2: A trojan horse? How so do. 736 00:36:08,559 --> 00:36:11,519 Speaker 1: We tell the public and the politicians, Hey, we are 737 00:36:11,559 --> 00:36:13,960 looking for aliens. Give us funding because it's a grand 738 00:36:14,039 --> 00:36:18,280 romantic quest. But secretly the scientific community knows that the 739 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,679 real value is simply funding the random walk. Is looking 740 00:36:22,679 --> 00:36:26,159 for exoplanets just an excuse to force ourselves to invent 741 00:36:26,199 --> 00:36:29,159 the technologies that will eventually cure our earthly diseases. 742 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't call it a deception, but rather a 743 00:36:32,159 --> 00:36:37,199 profound necessary synergy. Human beings are storytelling creatures. We are 744 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,920 motivated by grand narratives. The quest to answer are we alone? 745 00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:45,679 Is the ultimate narrative. It provides the inspirational fuel, the 746 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,519 political will, and the massive financial resources necessary to push 747 00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:54,480 the absolute boundaries of physics, chemistry, engineering, and material science. 748 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: Like the engineers who spent decades building the intricate, hexagonal 749 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,199 goldmere of the James Webb Space Telescope weren't trying to 750 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,000 invent new medical lasers or better eye surgery techniques. 751 00:37:07,079 --> 00:37:08,760 Speaker 2: No, they were just trying to see the infrared dawn 752 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:09,400 of the universe. 753 00:37:09,599 --> 00:37:14,559 Speaker 1: But the extreme, unprecedented precision required to polish those space 754 00:37:14,559 --> 00:37:19,679 mirrors forces technological breakthroughs in optics and manufacturing that eventually 755 00:37:20,039 --> 00:37:24,360 inevitably trickle down into everyday commercial and medical technology. 756 00:37:24,519 --> 00:37:26,679 Speaker 2: So we hurl billions of dollars of metal at the 757 00:37:26,679 --> 00:37:30,840 stars to satisfy our deepest philosophical and theological curiosity. Yeah, 758 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,960 and as a byproduct of that existential yearning, we get 759 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,199 the ability to find tumors faster or navigate our cars 760 00:37:37,199 --> 00:37:38,079 without getting lost. 761 00:37:38,199 --> 00:37:41,320 Speaker 1: Exactly every time you, the listener, pull up a map 762 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,159 on your phone, you are utilizing the direct, tangible byproduct 763 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,719 of humanity's urge to look up into the dark and 764 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,360 ask if anyone else is out there? 765 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 2: It is a beautiful irony. The greatest, most vital discoveries 766 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,199 aren't always the ones we set out to find. Sometimes 767 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,800 the act of looking outward into the deepest voids of 768 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,679 space is exactly what gives us the tools we need 769 00:38:02,039 --> 00:38:05,800 to fix the seemingly insurmountable problems right here at home. 770 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: Sometimes looking for aliens is just the roundabout way we 771 00:38:08,559 --> 00:38:10,400 find our way home. I love that. 772 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,280 Speaker 2: It's very poetic but also practically true. 773 00:38:13,519 --> 00:38:15,679 Speaker 1: Okay, let's take a breath, step back and look at 774 00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:18,679 the massive tapestry we've woven today on this edition of 775 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:19,559 Thrilling Threads. 776 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:20,559 Speaker 2: It's been a journey. 777 00:38:20,679 --> 00:38:23,519 Speaker 1: We started by staring down the raw chemical reality of 778 00:38:23,559 --> 00:38:27,679 a second genesis, the mathematical likelihood that biological life is 779 00:38:27,679 --> 00:38:31,000 not a miracle but a fundamental property of the universe. 780 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,719 Hiding in the acidic clouds of Venus or the dark 781 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,719 hydrothermal vents of Enceladus, we did. We witness the intense, 782 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,880 almost tragic fragility of our own human ego through a 783 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,400 late night conversation in a living room in thunder Bay, 784 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,519 realizing how easily our deeply held belief systems are threatened 785 00:38:47,519 --> 00:38:49,480 by the mere existence of rocks and space. 786 00:38:49,679 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 2: Spunky widow. 787 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,320 Speaker 1: Yes, we learned through the historical echo of Compernicus and 788 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,679 Galileo that digesting the ultimate truth of our demotion from 789 00:38:58,679 --> 00:39:02,039 the center of the universe won't be a sudden cinematic flash, 790 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:07,840 but a slow, messy, multi generational cultural grind, a bureaucratic slog. 791 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,440 And finally we realize that wandering aimlessly through the cosmos, 792 00:39:11,599 --> 00:39:15,880 the pure, untethered curiosity of science is exactly how we 793 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,920 accidentally invent the technology that saves our lives. 794 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,079 Speaker 2: It is a scientific narrative that constantly loops back on itself. 795 00:39:23,519 --> 00:39:27,000 It forces us to continually reevaluate not just the strange 796 00:39:27,079 --> 00:39:29,559 chemistry of what is out there, but the psychology of 797 00:39:29,559 --> 00:39:30,559 who we are down here. 798 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 1: And that brings me to a final, highly provocative thought 799 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,480 for you to chew on today. Okay, we spend so 800 00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:38,199 much time looking at the Fermi paradox, asking why we 801 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,320 haven't heard from anyone yet, Why is the universe so quiet? 802 00:39:41,559 --> 00:39:44,039 We usually assume it's a technological barrier, right, like. 803 00:39:44,039 --> 00:39:46,280 Speaker 2: They destroy themselves or can't travel that far. 804 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,159 Speaker 1: But maybe the universe isn't keeping its distance because our 805 00:39:49,159 --> 00:39:51,960 telescopes aren't big enough. Maybe the universe is waiting for 806 00:39:52,039 --> 00:39:55,360 us to be culturally, theologically and psychologically mature enough to 807 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,719 understand ourselves. If the mere scientific contormation of a single 808 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,199 one thinking microbe on Mars, or the realization of a 809 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,000 barren exo planet orbiting a distant sun is enough to 810 00:40:07,079 --> 00:40:10,400 shake the very foundation of human philosophy and trigger an 811 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:15,079 existential crisis, perhaps the real fragile ecosystem isn't out there 812 00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:18,400 in the harsh radiation of the stars. Perhaps the most 813 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,559 fragile ecosystem in the entire universe is the human ego 814 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:22,559 right here on Earth. 815 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 2: That is a profoundly sobering thought. Until we can reconcile 816 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,000 our own cosmic insignificance without losing our sense of meaning, empathy, 817 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,400 and wonder, we simply may not be ready for the 818 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:34,639 awakening that awaits us. 819 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:36,280 Speaker 1: So we want to hear from you. We want to 820 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,679 bring you directly into this conversation because this is about 821 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,840 your worldview. Yes, please imagine you wake up tomorrow morning, 822 00:40:42,119 --> 00:40:45,400 you check your phone and the newses everywhere. Scientists have 823 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,480 released Undeniable one hundred percent definitive, peer reviewed proof of 824 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,639 intelligent life in another star system. 825 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:53,199 Speaker 2: The debate is completely over. 826 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,559 Speaker 1: They are out there. How would that specific realization change 827 00:40:57,559 --> 00:41:01,840 your personal belief system? Would it shatter your theological worldview 828 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,320 and cause a personal existential crisis, or would it be 829 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,079 the ultimate comforting awakening for you. 830 00:41:08,559 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 2: We truly look forward to reading your perspectives and engaging 831 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:12,320 with your thoughts on this. 832 00:41:12,519 --> 00:41:14,800 Speaker 1: Drop down into the comments and let us know exactly 833 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,159 where you stand. We want to read how you would 834 00:41:17,199 --> 00:41:21,440 process the greatest paradigm shift in history. Thank you so 835 00:41:21,519 --> 00:41:23,920 much for joining us for this incredibly deep addition of 836 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:28,079 thrilling threads. Remember to keep looking up, keep questioning the narrative, 837 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,440 and most importantly, keep pulling at the threads of the universe.