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<v Speaker 1>You may recall that Heidigan All was on the show

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<v Speaker 1>a month, no, a few weeks ago. It's all running

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<v Speaker 1>together as a blur during election season, asking some questions

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<v Speaker 1>about certain things that she had seen or was concerned

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<v Speaker 1>about when it came to our election integrity. And now

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<v Speaker 1>she's out again saying, hey, can we have a conversation

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<v Speaker 1>about this? And I thought i'd bring her back on

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<v Speaker 1>because there are some local newspapers who are given her

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<v Speaker 1>crap about asking the questions.

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<v Speaker 2>Heidi, welcome back to the show.

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<v Speaker 3>First of all, Hey, Mandy, it's great to be on.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let's talk about the questions that you are asking

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<v Speaker 1>and why you are asking them. Okay, let's start with that,

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<v Speaker 1>because I had a conversation with Matt Crane from the

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<v Speaker 1>Colorado Clerks Association. He was on Ross's show today specifically about.

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<v Speaker 2>Some of these issues.

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<v Speaker 1>But I want to know why they came to your

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<v Speaker 1>radar in the first place and why you decided to say, look,

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<v Speaker 1>we need to talk about this.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Mandie, Well, after my election in twenty two, it's

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<v Speaker 4>been two years, I decided to just take a look

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<v Speaker 4>into some of the things I was hearing on the

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<v Speaker 4>campaign trail. People's concerns because twenty five percent of Republicans

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<v Speaker 4>did not show up to vote in that election. A

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<v Speaker 4>lot of that was because of their concerns around the elections.

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<v Speaker 3>So I just said, let's just dig in and see.

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<v Speaker 4>And so Kurt Hoffman and I asked for a recount

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<v Speaker 4>in Douglas County in his race because his numbers were

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<v Speaker 4>really odd and he's the only Republican that didn't win

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<v Speaker 4>in that county, and he was in an orplus ten districts,

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<v Speaker 4>so he should have won by ten points. So we

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<v Speaker 4>start digging in and we got I mean, we got

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<v Speaker 4>blocked every which way to Sunday, and that's a Republican county,

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<v Speaker 4>and we were getting blocked from asking questions, getting access

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<v Speaker 4>to information.

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<v Speaker 3>So we kept digging.

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<v Speaker 4>A hired an attorney and we were able to after

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<v Speaker 4>a year do a pretty full audit of paper ballots

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<v Speaker 4>in that county.

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<v Speaker 3>We scanned over eighty three thousand of them.

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<v Speaker 4>But what came up were things that we weren't necessarily

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<v Speaker 4>looking at, Like drop boxes are not as secure as

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<v Speaker 4>we like to think. The US Post Office invoicing was

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<v Speaker 4>not undeliverable, ballots are not tracked well, and that's the

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<v Speaker 4>law they have to be. We found that there was

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<v Speaker 4>remote Wi Fi access in Douglas County's voting system, and

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<v Speaker 4>the clerk said there is not, and the county attorney

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<v Speaker 4>said there is not when we asked them face to face.

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<v Speaker 4>But when we looked at the purchase records of the equipment,

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<v Speaker 4>we found that it was and they had to end

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<v Speaker 4>up admitting that it was. And then Matt Crane eventually

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<v Speaker 4>admitted that there were twelve counties that had remote access

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<v Speaker 4>in their voting systems after Jennick Griswold said absolutely not.

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<v Speaker 4>It's all removed in the Trusted Bill. It's stripped of

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<v Speaker 4>any access. She said that in twenty twenty. So fast

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<v Speaker 4>forward to now and what's happening in Mesa County with

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<v Speaker 4>these three votes that were put through the system. That

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<v Speaker 4>leads to another issue, which is signature verification. And there's

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<v Speaker 4>all kinds of issues with signature verification. I didn't even

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<v Speaker 4>bring that up when I did my press conference because

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<v Speaker 4>I was kind of I was trying to keep things

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<v Speaker 4>simple and addressings that we could fix before the election.

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<v Speaker 3>But this is a whole new bag of worms.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I want to address a couple of things because

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<v Speaker 1>I asked him specifically about a couple of these issues.

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<v Speaker 1>And I want to talk for a second about the

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<v Speaker 1>undeliverable ballots and the reconciliation that the various organizations get.

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<v Speaker 1>And one of the things that Matt told me was

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<v Speaker 1>those undeliverable numbers also include undeliverable mail, just general mail.

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<v Speaker 2>So he said, those.

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<v Speaker 1>Numbers are never going to match, they're never going to

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<v Speaker 1>be the same because they don't separate out the ballots

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<v Speaker 1>from the undeliverable mail. So is there any other information

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<v Speaker 1>other than that about there being undeliverable mail?

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<v Speaker 2>What else is happening there?

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, there's two big issues with what he said. One

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<v Speaker 4>is the law requires that the post office bill the

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<v Speaker 4>county invoice the county for every undeliverable ballot that they handle.

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<v Speaker 4>That's technically how they're accounting for all the undeliverable ballots

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<v Speaker 4>they're getting back. If they are not doing that and

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<v Speaker 4>breaking it out so that it's easy to understand for

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<v Speaker 4>the clerk, that is an issue in itself. But what

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<v Speaker 4>Bob Cooper found when he dug in was it's actually

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<v Speaker 4>really easy to tell by the weighting of the items

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<v Speaker 4>in the invoice which ones are ballots and I can

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<v Speaker 4>send you an example of this or tweet it out

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<v Speaker 4>so everybody can see. It's not complicated to see in

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<v Speaker 4>the invoicing how you can break it out.

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<v Speaker 3>So that's not accurate. But really it comes down.

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<v Speaker 4>To it's the law that they are supposed to track

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<v Speaker 4>these undeliverable ballots. And we found thirty thousand that were

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<v Speaker 4>unaccounted for in nine counties. That's not okay, Like, what's

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<v Speaker 4>happening to these ballots?

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<v Speaker 1>So you guys use the actual invoices that have the weight.

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<v Speaker 1>So you pulled out the balloting from the undeliverable mail,

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<v Speaker 1>that's where you came up with that number.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, you can look at the invoicing or it's called

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<v Speaker 4>a ballot I can't remember the name of it, a

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<v Speaker 4>ballot reconciliation document, and you can actually see how it's

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<v Speaker 4>split out.

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<v Speaker 3>Wait, and you know which ones are balid.

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<v Speaker 4>So and even if say that that's not true and

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<v Speaker 4>you couldn't figure it out, that's not following the law.

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<v Speaker 3>The law says that you have the.

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<v Speaker 4>Post Office has to charge for every ballot that they handle,

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<v Speaker 4>and that's their way of accounting for it. Now, do

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<v Speaker 4>I agree that that's the best way to account No.

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<v Speaker 4>This is one thing that really bothers me, Mandy, is

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<v Speaker 4>throughout all these processes they are not using general accounting

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<v Speaker 4>standard practices. We don't have good auditing processes in place,

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<v Speaker 4>whether it's the signature verification or the undeliverable ballots or

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<v Speaker 4>even the machines and knowing if they have remote Wi

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<v Speaker 4>Fi access, there should be outside forensic auditors in whatever

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<v Speaker 4>thing you're looking at that come in and look at

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<v Speaker 4>what's happening and make sure that the government is doing

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<v Speaker 4>the right things. Because to your point in your episode,

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<v Speaker 4>in your segment earlier, not many people trust the government

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<v Speaker 4>to do a lot right now. And to restore that trust,

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<v Speaker 4>we need sunshine, We need transparency. And that's what I'm

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<v Speaker 4>trying to do, was provide transparency and good information and

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<v Speaker 4>asking the right questions, the hard questions, so that voters

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<v Speaker 4>can trust the process again and feel good about voting.

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<v Speaker 1>And I told Matt that I want people to have

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<v Speaker 1>faith in the system like that is and just like

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<v Speaker 1>you want to have people have faith in the system.

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<v Speaker 1>But at one point I asked him specifically about about

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<v Speaker 1>the drop box cameras because some of these drop boxes

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<v Speaker 1>are not well lit. They have poor quality cameras. So

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<v Speaker 1>somebody did want to monitor who was dropping off, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a group of ballots, harvested ballots. Maybe they do have

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<v Speaker 1>a legit purpose. Maybe that's all their family members. You

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<v Speaker 1>don't really have that option. And he said, look, we've

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<v Speaker 1>just not had that happen before. And I told him,

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<v Speaker 1>point blink, that's not a good answer. When you have

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<v Speaker 1>people that are concerned about election integrity going forward, it

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<v Speaker 1>hasn't happened yet is not comforting, right, So I think

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<v Speaker 1>the camera situation is probably the easy to fix. And

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<v Speaker 1>have you had any conversations or any follow up with

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<v Speaker 1>any clerks who have said, you know what, we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to upgrade our cameras. We want to make sure that

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<v Speaker 1>people have confidence in the system.

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<v Speaker 4>So Manny Mark Millman's been working on this for a

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<v Speaker 4>couple of years and he is in Boulder County and

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<v Speaker 4>he's tried relentlessly to get them to upgrade the cameras.

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<v Speaker 4>There's a very inexpensive system that you can put in

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<v Speaker 4>place that's effective, that works well. Now.

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<v Speaker 3>I come from Camp Balow where we have webcams all

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<v Speaker 3>over the place. They're high definition.

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<v Speaker 4>It's not hard, but they have been resistant to doing that,

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<v Speaker 4>and as we looked at the systems across the state,

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<v Speaker 4>the ones that we could monitor or see, we were

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<v Speaker 4>very disappointed. We found very very few camera systems.

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<v Speaker 3>That were high quality.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's important because, according to the Rule seven, the

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<v Speaker 4>minimal standards that have to be met to submit evidence

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<v Speaker 4>to court if there is wrongdoing, these systems don't meet

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<v Speaker 4>that evidence. So even if it is pointed in the

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<v Speaker 4>right direction, which very very few are now, Douglas County

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<v Speaker 4>just put theirs on live stream. But if you look

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<v Speaker 4>at them, Mandy, they're so far away. You can't see

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<v Speaker 4>how many ballots people are putting in, and you can't

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<v Speaker 4>see a person's face, you can't see a license plate.

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<v Speaker 4>So Matt's saying, they haven't had this be a problem.

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<v Speaker 4>How do they know. They don't review the footage, they

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<v Speaker 4>don't watch it, they don't pay attention, and in most

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<v Speaker 4>of the cameras you can't see what's going on.

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<v Speaker 1>That to me seems the most easily fixable problem, Like

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<v Speaker 1>that should be a no brainer. We should be able

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<v Speaker 1>to do that right now. And Heidi, you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>understand Matt's frustration, because Matt's like, Ah, all of these

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<v Speaker 1>conversations just undermine people's confidence in the system. And where

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<v Speaker 1>he's sitting and I don't want to put words in

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<v Speaker 1>his mouth. That's not what I'm doing here, But I

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<v Speaker 1>feel like where he's sitting as the as the head

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<v Speaker 1>of the Clerk of Courts organization in Colorado, he knows

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<v Speaker 1>all of the things and he listed him off on

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<v Speaker 1>Ross's show all of the things they're trying to do

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<v Speaker 1>to ensure voter integrity. How do we get from a

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<v Speaker 1>point where we and me and you and everybody out

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<v Speaker 1>there who's listening can just say, Okay, you know what,

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<v Speaker 1>this is as secure as it can be without going

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<v Speaker 1>back to in person voting with a voter ID, which

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<v Speaker 1>would honestly be my preference at this point.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. I mean he first met needs to pick up

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<v Speaker 3>the phone and call me.

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<v Speaker 4>I've tried reaching out to him many times in the

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<v Speaker 4>last couple of months, and he hasn't responded. Instead, he

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<v Speaker 4>gives information to other people to report on air. Same

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<v Speaker 4>with Sherry Davis, the clerk in Douglas County. I've asked

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<v Speaker 4>her for meetings since April since we did this audit,

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<v Speaker 4>and sh and her team have been very like resistant

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<v Speaker 4>to meeting with me, and instead they come out and

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<v Speaker 4>do a press conference and talk about how great everything

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<v Speaker 4>is instead of just talking and having a debate or

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<v Speaker 4>a conversation about how to make things better. The last

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<v Speaker 4>thing is, you know, I want to trust our elections.

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<v Speaker 4>I want everyone to vote with their whole heart in

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<v Speaker 4>the next week.

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<v Speaker 3>It's only a week away.

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<v Speaker 4>But that doesn't mean that we should just blindly trust

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<v Speaker 4>these people. And especially when Jenner Griswold lied to us

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<v Speaker 4>about whether there was remote access in these machines, and

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<v Speaker 4>Matt said that too over the last couple of years,

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<v Speaker 4>and many clerks have And I don't blame the clerks.

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<v Speaker 4>The clerks are not technology experts. They're trusting what they're

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<v Speaker 4>hearing from the Secretary of State and then head of

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<v Speaker 4>their clerks association. But why don't we have an open

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<v Speaker 4>debate after the election? Why don't Mandy you could host

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<v Speaker 4>a debate. I've also somebody could host a debate. We

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<v Speaker 4>get our experts, they get out their experts, and.

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<v Speaker 3>We hash it out.

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<v Speaker 1>I would love that. I would absolutely love that. I

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<v Speaker 1>said this earlier, Heidi. You know, I asked Matt some

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<v Speaker 1>of the questions. I'm like, look, I want good answers

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<v Speaker 1>to good questions. What's frustrating to me is that we're

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<v Speaker 1>not even allowed to ask a question. That's the frustrating thing.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like, look, we're trying to be proactive, we're trying

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<v Speaker 1>to address those issues that a reluctant voter might have

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<v Speaker 1>in trusting the system.

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<v Speaker 2>So why can't we all just get on.

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<v Speaker 1>The same page and say, Okay, it may seem redundant

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<v Speaker 1>to me, but if that's going to make everybody else feel.

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<v Speaker 2>Better, then let's do it.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean my mind, that's what should be happening, and

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<v Speaker 1>every voter should want the votes integrity protected.

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<v Speaker 2>And right now in Mason County.

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<v Speaker 1>There are three people who are going to have their

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<v Speaker 1>votes canceled out by fake ballots that were turned in

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<v Speaker 1>by somebody else.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's just the facts. And no matter if they.

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<v Speaker 1>Voted for something else that these fake ballots are voting,

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<v Speaker 1>they lost their right to vote because someone cheated. And

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<v Speaker 1>that's just that needs to be addressed with the forcefulness

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<v Speaker 1>that I think it deserves. And that's not what I

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<v Speaker 1>heard from Matt today. I hear a lot of with

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the system worked, a quarter of the bad

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<v Speaker 1>ballots got through that's not okay with me, shouldn't be

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<v Speaker 1>okay with any votor in.

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<v Speaker 4>Colorado, Mandy, how do we know it's only three votes?

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<v Speaker 4>We're going to say it could be a thousand votes.

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<v Speaker 4>It could be ten thousand votes. We don't know because

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<v Speaker 4>we don't have any outside experts looking at the systems

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<v Speaker 4>and processes we have. It's self regulating, and these are

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<v Speaker 4>not security experts that are looking over these systems. They're

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<v Speaker 4>good intention people who want the best things, but they're

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<v Speaker 4>not security experts.

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<v Speaker 3>And the answers that.

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<v Speaker 4>I got back when we asked the hard security and

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<v Speaker 4>technology questions were hogwash.

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<v Speaker 3>I've learned enough to know that they're hogwash.

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<v Speaker 4>And so if you're going to pretend like everything's great

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<v Speaker 4>and call me reckless and call me an elections conspiracy

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<v Speaker 4>theorist like Jesse Paul with the cart the Sun is,

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<v Speaker 4>he won't even answer a question over email. When I

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<v Speaker 4>pushed back and said, why didn't you interview me, Jesse,

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<v Speaker 4>I have a good.

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<v Speaker 3>Relationship with you.

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<v Speaker 4>Why are you calling me names instead of actually digging

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<v Speaker 4>in and talking about these things?

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<v Speaker 3>All the media is doing that.

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<v Speaker 4>Channel seven interviewed me for ten minutes in the car

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<v Speaker 4>in the parking lot of McDonald's. I gave them all

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<v Speaker 4>the reasons we're doing a public observer dropbox program, and

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<v Speaker 4>they didn't air any of it. Instead, they just listened

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<v Speaker 4>to the Secretary of States talking points and cut out

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<v Speaker 4>everything I said and put a little clip that had

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<v Speaker 4>nothing to do with why we were doing it.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, we'll leave that rhetorical question just hanging

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<v Speaker 1>out there.

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<v Speaker 2>Why they do what they do?

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<v Speaker 1>Heidi, I'm glad you're asking the questions, and I would

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<v Speaker 1>love As a matter of fact, I'm going to get

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<v Speaker 1>working right now after the election is over, so probably January,

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<v Speaker 1>when we get the results of the votes. I'm only

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<v Speaker 1>being half sarcastic there. I will set something up and

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<v Speaker 1>we'll have a conversation because, in my mind, regardless of party,

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<v Speaker 1>election integrity should be very important because everyone should know

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<v Speaker 1>that your vote counts and no one is going to

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<v Speaker 1>cast a fake ballot and cancel it out.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think that's too much to ask. Hidigan all.

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<v Speaker 2>Great to see you as always, my friend.

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<v Speaker 3>Thanks Mandy for all you do, Thanks for hearing me out.