Speaker 1: You may recall that Heidigan All was on the show
Speaker 1: a month, no, a few weeks ago. It's all running
Speaker 1: together as a blur during election season, asking some questions
Speaker 1: about certain things that she had seen or was concerned
Speaker 1: about when it came to our election integrity. And now
Speaker 1: she's out again saying, hey, can we have a conversation
Speaker 1: about this? And I thought i'd bring her back on
Speaker 1: because there are some local newspapers who are given her
Speaker 1: crap about asking the questions.
Speaker 2: Heidi, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 3: First of all, Hey, Mandy, it's great to be on.
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the questions that you are asking
Speaker 1: and why you are asking them. Okay, let's start with that,
Speaker 1: because I had a conversation with Matt Crane from the
Speaker 1: Colorado Clerks Association. He was on Ross's show today specifically about.
Speaker 2: Some of these issues.
Speaker 1: But I want to know why they came to your
Speaker 1: radar in the first place and why you decided to say, look,
Speaker 1: we need to talk about this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Mandie, Well, after my election in twenty two, it's
Speaker 4: been two years, I decided to just take a look
Speaker 4: into some of the things I was hearing on the
Speaker 4: campaign trail. People's concerns because twenty five percent of Republicans
Speaker 4: did not show up to vote in that election. A
Speaker 4: lot of that was because of their concerns around the elections.
Speaker 3: So I just said, let's just dig in and see.
Speaker 4: And so Kurt Hoffman and I asked for a recount
Speaker 4: in Douglas County in his race because his numbers were
Speaker 4: really odd and he's the only Republican that didn't win
Speaker 4: in that county, and he was in an orplus ten districts,
Speaker 4: so he should have won by ten points. So we
Speaker 4: start digging in and we got I mean, we got
Speaker 4: blocked every which way to Sunday, and that's a Republican county,
Speaker 4: and we were getting blocked from asking questions, getting access
Speaker 4: to information.
Speaker 3: So we kept digging.
Speaker 4: A hired an attorney and we were able to after
Speaker 4: a year do a pretty full audit of paper ballots
Speaker 4: in that county.
Speaker 3: We scanned over eighty three thousand of them.
Speaker 4: But what came up were things that we weren't necessarily
Speaker 4: looking at, Like drop boxes are not as secure as
Speaker 4: we like to think. The US Post Office invoicing was
Speaker 4: not undeliverable, ballots are not tracked well, and that's the
Speaker 4: law they have to be. We found that there was
Speaker 4: remote Wi Fi access in Douglas County's voting system, and
Speaker 4: the clerk said there is not, and the county attorney
Speaker 4: said there is not when we asked them face to face.
Speaker 4: But when we looked at the purchase records of the equipment,
Speaker 4: we found that it was and they had to end
Speaker 4: up admitting that it was. And then Matt Crane eventually
Speaker 4: admitted that there were twelve counties that had remote access
Speaker 4: in their voting systems after Jennick Griswold said absolutely not.
Speaker 4: It's all removed in the Trusted Bill. It's stripped of
Speaker 4: any access. She said that in twenty twenty. So fast
Speaker 4: forward to now and what's happening in Mesa County with
Speaker 4: these three votes that were put through the system. That
Speaker 4: leads to another issue, which is signature verification. And there's
Speaker 4: all kinds of issues with signature verification. I didn't even
Speaker 4: bring that up when I did my press conference because
Speaker 4: I was kind of I was trying to keep things
Speaker 4: simple and addressings that we could fix before the election.
Speaker 3: But this is a whole new bag of worms.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to address a couple of things because
Speaker 1: I asked him specifically about a couple of these issues.
Speaker 1: And I want to talk for a second about the
Speaker 1: undeliverable ballots and the reconciliation that the various organizations get.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that Matt told me was
Speaker 1: those undeliverable numbers also include undeliverable mail, just general mail.
Speaker 2: So he said, those.
Speaker 1: Numbers are never going to match, they're never going to
Speaker 1: be the same because they don't separate out the ballots
Speaker 1: from the undeliverable mail. So is there any other information
Speaker 1: other than that about there being undeliverable mail?
Speaker 2: What else is happening there?
Speaker 4: Yes, there's two big issues with what he said. One
Speaker 4: is the law requires that the post office bill the
Speaker 4: county invoice the county for every undeliverable ballot that they handle.
Speaker 4: That's technically how they're accounting for all the undeliverable ballots
Speaker 4: they're getting back. If they are not doing that and
Speaker 4: breaking it out so that it's easy to understand for
Speaker 4: the clerk, that is an issue in itself. But what
Speaker 4: Bob Cooper found when he dug in was it's actually
Speaker 4: really easy to tell by the weighting of the items
Speaker 4: in the invoice which ones are ballots and I can
Speaker 4: send you an example of this or tweet it out
Speaker 4: so everybody can see. It's not complicated to see in
Speaker 4: the invoicing how you can break it out.
Speaker 3: So that's not accurate. But really it comes down.
Speaker 4: To it's the law that they are supposed to track
Speaker 4: these undeliverable ballots. And we found thirty thousand that were
Speaker 4: unaccounted for in nine counties. That's not okay, Like, what's
Speaker 4: happening to these ballots?
Speaker 1: So you guys use the actual invoices that have the weight.
Speaker 1: So you pulled out the balloting from the undeliverable mail,
Speaker 1: that's where you came up with that number.
Speaker 4: Yes, you can look at the invoicing or it's called
Speaker 4: a ballot I can't remember the name of it, a
Speaker 4: ballot reconciliation document, and you can actually see how it's
Speaker 4: split out.
Speaker 3: Wait, and you know which ones are balid.
Speaker 4: So and even if say that that's not true and
Speaker 4: you couldn't figure it out, that's not following the law.
Speaker 3: The law says that you have the.
Speaker 4: Post Office has to charge for every ballot that they handle,
Speaker 4: and that's their way of accounting for it. Now, do
Speaker 4: I agree that that's the best way to account No.
Speaker 4: This is one thing that really bothers me, Mandy, is
Speaker 4: throughout all these processes they are not using general accounting
Speaker 4: standard practices. We don't have good auditing processes in place,
Speaker 4: whether it's the signature verification or the undeliverable ballots or
Speaker 4: even the machines and knowing if they have remote Wi
Speaker 4: Fi access, there should be outside forensic auditors in whatever
Speaker 4: thing you're looking at that come in and look at
Speaker 4: what's happening and make sure that the government is doing
Speaker 4: the right things. Because to your point in your episode,
Speaker 4: in your segment earlier, not many people trust the government
Speaker 4: to do a lot right now. And to restore that trust,
Speaker 4: we need sunshine, We need transparency. And that's what I'm
Speaker 4: trying to do, was provide transparency and good information and
Speaker 4: asking the right questions, the hard questions, so that voters
Speaker 4: can trust the process again and feel good about voting.
Speaker 1: And I told Matt that I want people to have
Speaker 1: faith in the system like that is and just like
Speaker 1: you want to have people have faith in the system.
Speaker 1: But at one point I asked him specifically about about
Speaker 1: the drop box cameras because some of these drop boxes
Speaker 1: are not well lit. They have poor quality cameras. So
Speaker 1: somebody did want to monitor who was dropping off, you know,
Speaker 1: a group of ballots, harvested ballots. Maybe they do have
Speaker 1: a legit purpose. Maybe that's all their family members. You
Speaker 1: don't really have that option. And he said, look, we've
Speaker 1: just not had that happen before. And I told him,
Speaker 1: point blink, that's not a good answer. When you have
Speaker 1: people that are concerned about election integrity going forward, it
Speaker 1: hasn't happened yet is not comforting, right, So I think
Speaker 1: the camera situation is probably the easy to fix. And
Speaker 1: have you had any conversations or any follow up with
Speaker 1: any clerks who have said, you know what, we're going
Speaker 1: to upgrade our cameras. We want to make sure that
Speaker 1: people have confidence in the system.
Speaker 4: So Manny Mark Millman's been working on this for a
Speaker 4: couple of years and he is in Boulder County and
Speaker 4: he's tried relentlessly to get them to upgrade the cameras.
Speaker 4: There's a very inexpensive system that you can put in
Speaker 4: place that's effective, that works well. Now.
Speaker 3: I come from Camp Balow where we have webcams all
Speaker 3: over the place. They're high definition.
Speaker 4: It's not hard, but they have been resistant to doing that,
Speaker 4: and as we looked at the systems across the state,
Speaker 4: the ones that we could monitor or see, we were
Speaker 4: very disappointed. We found very very few camera systems.
Speaker 3: That were high quality.
Speaker 4: And that's important because, according to the Rule seven, the
Speaker 4: minimal standards that have to be met to submit evidence
Speaker 4: to court if there is wrongdoing, these systems don't meet
Speaker 4: that evidence. So even if it is pointed in the
Speaker 4: right direction, which very very few are now, Douglas County
Speaker 4: just put theirs on live stream. But if you look
Speaker 4: at them, Mandy, they're so far away. You can't see
Speaker 4: how many ballots people are putting in, and you can't
Speaker 4: see a person's face, you can't see a license plate.
Speaker 4: So Matt's saying, they haven't had this be a problem.
Speaker 4: How do they know. They don't review the footage, they
Speaker 4: don't watch it, they don't pay attention, and in most
Speaker 4: of the cameras you can't see what's going on.
Speaker 1: That to me seems the most easily fixable problem, Like
Speaker 1: that should be a no brainer. We should be able
Speaker 1: to do that right now. And Heidi, you know, I
Speaker 1: understand Matt's frustration, because Matt's like, Ah, all of these
Speaker 1: conversations just undermine people's confidence in the system. And where
Speaker 1: he's sitting and I don't want to put words in
Speaker 1: his mouth. That's not what I'm doing here, But I
Speaker 1: feel like where he's sitting as the as the head
Speaker 1: of the Clerk of Courts organization in Colorado, he knows
Speaker 1: all of the things and he listed him off on
Speaker 1: Ross's show all of the things they're trying to do
Speaker 1: to ensure voter integrity. How do we get from a
Speaker 1: point where we and me and you and everybody out
Speaker 1: there who's listening can just say, Okay, you know what,
Speaker 1: this is as secure as it can be without going
Speaker 1: back to in person voting with a voter ID, which
Speaker 1: would honestly be my preference at this point.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean he first met needs to pick up
Speaker 3: the phone and call me.
Speaker 4: I've tried reaching out to him many times in the
Speaker 4: last couple of months, and he hasn't responded. Instead, he
Speaker 4: gives information to other people to report on air. Same
Speaker 4: with Sherry Davis, the clerk in Douglas County. I've asked
Speaker 4: her for meetings since April since we did this audit,
Speaker 4: and sh and her team have been very like resistant
Speaker 4: to meeting with me, and instead they come out and
Speaker 4: do a press conference and talk about how great everything
Speaker 4: is instead of just talking and having a debate or
Speaker 4: a conversation about how to make things better. The last
Speaker 4: thing is, you know, I want to trust our elections.
Speaker 4: I want everyone to vote with their whole heart in
Speaker 4: the next week.
Speaker 3: It's only a week away.
Speaker 4: But that doesn't mean that we should just blindly trust
Speaker 4: these people. And especially when Jenner Griswold lied to us
Speaker 4: about whether there was remote access in these machines, and
Speaker 4: Matt said that too over the last couple of years,
Speaker 4: and many clerks have And I don't blame the clerks.
Speaker 4: The clerks are not technology experts. They're trusting what they're
Speaker 4: hearing from the Secretary of State and then head of
Speaker 4: their clerks association. But why don't we have an open
Speaker 4: debate after the election? Why don't Mandy you could host
Speaker 4: a debate. I've also somebody could host a debate. We
Speaker 4: get our experts, they get out their experts, and.
Speaker 3: We hash it out.
Speaker 1: I would love that. I would absolutely love that. I
Speaker 1: said this earlier, Heidi. You know, I asked Matt some
Speaker 1: of the questions. I'm like, look, I want good answers
Speaker 1: to good questions. What's frustrating to me is that we're
Speaker 1: not even allowed to ask a question. That's the frustrating thing.
Speaker 1: It's like, look, we're trying to be proactive, we're trying
Speaker 1: to address those issues that a reluctant voter might have
Speaker 1: in trusting the system.
Speaker 2: So why can't we all just get on.
Speaker 1: The same page and say, Okay, it may seem redundant
Speaker 1: to me, but if that's going to make everybody else feel.
Speaker 2: Better, then let's do it.
Speaker 1: I mean my mind, that's what should be happening, and
Speaker 1: every voter should want the votes integrity protected.
Speaker 2: And right now in Mason County.
Speaker 1: There are three people who are going to have their
Speaker 1: votes canceled out by fake ballots that were turned in
Speaker 1: by somebody else.
Speaker 2: And that's just the facts. And no matter if they.
Speaker 1: Voted for something else that these fake ballots are voting,
Speaker 1: they lost their right to vote because someone cheated. And
Speaker 1: that's just that needs to be addressed with the forcefulness
Speaker 1: that I think it deserves. And that's not what I
Speaker 1: heard from Matt today. I hear a lot of with
Speaker 1: you know, the system worked, a quarter of the bad
Speaker 1: ballots got through that's not okay with me, shouldn't be
Speaker 1: okay with any votor in.
Speaker 4: Colorado, Mandy, how do we know it's only three votes?
Speaker 4: We're going to say it could be a thousand votes.
Speaker 4: It could be ten thousand votes. We don't know because
Speaker 4: we don't have any outside experts looking at the systems
Speaker 4: and processes we have. It's self regulating, and these are
Speaker 4: not security experts that are looking over these systems. They're
Speaker 4: good intention people who want the best things, but they're
Speaker 4: not security experts.
Speaker 3: And the answers that.
Speaker 4: I got back when we asked the hard security and
Speaker 4: technology questions were hogwash.
Speaker 3: I've learned enough to know that they're hogwash.
Speaker 4: And so if you're going to pretend like everything's great
Speaker 4: and call me reckless and call me an elections conspiracy
Speaker 4: theorist like Jesse Paul with the cart the Sun is,
Speaker 4: he won't even answer a question over email. When I
Speaker 4: pushed back and said, why didn't you interview me, Jesse,
Speaker 4: I have a good.
Speaker 3: Relationship with you.
Speaker 4: Why are you calling me names instead of actually digging
Speaker 4: in and talking about these things?
Speaker 3: All the media is doing that.
Speaker 4: Channel seven interviewed me for ten minutes in the car
Speaker 4: in the parking lot of McDonald's. I gave them all
Speaker 4: the reasons we're doing a public observer dropbox program, and
Speaker 4: they didn't air any of it. Instead, they just listened
Speaker 4: to the Secretary of States talking points and cut out
Speaker 4: everything I said and put a little clip that had
Speaker 4: nothing to do with why we were doing it.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, we'll leave that rhetorical question just hanging
Speaker 1: out there.
Speaker 2: Why they do what they do?
Speaker 1: Heidi, I'm glad you're asking the questions, and I would
Speaker 1: love As a matter of fact, I'm going to get
Speaker 1: working right now after the election is over, so probably January,
Speaker 1: when we get the results of the votes. I'm only
Speaker 1: being half sarcastic there. I will set something up and
Speaker 1: we'll have a conversation because, in my mind, regardless of party,
Speaker 1: election integrity should be very important because everyone should know
Speaker 1: that your vote counts and no one is going to
Speaker 1: cast a fake ballot and cancel it out.
Speaker 2: I don't think that's too much to ask. Hidigan all.
Speaker 2: Great to see you as always, my friend.
Speaker 3: Thanks Mandy for all you do, Thanks for hearing me out.