Speaker 1: With Laurent's segele end from London and Gerard Reed from Berlin.
Speaker 2: This is redefining.
Speaker 1: Energy today on refer Energy JR. Finally, that's episode on
Speaker 1: Blackouts The Blackout.
Speaker 2: Yeah, looking forward to this one. Ron obviously highly.
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Speaker 1: Back to the show, there's been so much things written,
Speaker 1: including you, so we put the link in the show
Speaker 1: note what did you sing in yourself stack?
Speaker 2: Well, ultimately what I said it was all about the
Speaker 2: playing game, just nobody putting hands up and taking responsibility.
Speaker 2: I mean, there was a series of mistakes made, so
Speaker 2: best thing to do is put your hand up, say
Speaker 2: made mistakes, can learn from move on. Didn't get that
Speaker 2: from anybody and that's very concerning.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a series of reports and every report
Speaker 1: was puaranting in the other guy's direction.
Speaker 3: So it's the grid operator, it's hyber droller, it's solar,
Speaker 3: it's it's the friendships, and everybody would get blamed.
Speaker 1: It's just mad. You could only laugh at it.
Speaker 2: Just sorry, sometimes you make a mistake. Put your hand up,
Speaker 2: say it made a mistake.
Speaker 1: So all of a sudden, there were hundreds of expects
Speaker 1: of blackouts. But I think we need to go back
Speaker 1: to the source and job. We bring you an extraordinary guest.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. We bring in a guy known many years
Speaker 2: called Steve Berberish, and he was formerly the head of
Speaker 2: the system operator in California, and he's lived through a
Speaker 2: lot of stress. Can imagine. Just I think we see
Speaker 2: this all the time as the stress in the California
Speaker 2: grid because of climate wildfires, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So no
Speaker 2: better a person to come in and hear that. And also,
Speaker 2: by the way, so I don't forget the California grid.
Speaker 2: It's just full of soul. Right sent to Spain.
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, let's bring Steve on the show. Steve, it's
Speaker 1: great to have you on the show.
Speaker 4: It's a pleasure to be here. I've looked forward to
Speaker 4: speaking with both of you for some time now, and
Speaker 4: the provocative writings you've been doing a drawer or I
Speaker 4: think spurring a lot of conversation. So it's great to
Speaker 4: be here.
Speaker 1: So Steve, we're going to talk about blackouts, and you
Speaker 1: were yourself at the head of Kaiso into A twenty
Speaker 1: and you experience blackout. So can you remind us a
Speaker 1: bit what happened and how do you manage to get
Speaker 1: yourself out of it?
Speaker 4: I can. I think it's important to understand that all
Speaker 4: blackouts are different. There are some common themes. In our case,
Speaker 4: we dropped about five hundred megawats of load on a
Speaker 4: Friday night and a Saturday night in August of twenty twenty. Enough,
Speaker 4: it was the midst of COVID, but it was a
Speaker 4: very very hot time in California, and there's a lot
Speaker 4: of things that came to ahead, which is thematic across
Speaker 4: most of these blackouts. The principal issue was there was
Speaker 4: not enough supply to meet demand, but it's also a
Speaker 4: lack of adequate planning, and I think in a lot
Speaker 4: of cases there's a theme across these blackouts a lack
Speaker 4: of adequate planning. And let me set the stage for you.
Speaker 4: California has and had been importing twenty five percent of
Speaker 4: its power from out of state resources, and over the
Speaker 4: last few years leading up to twenty twenty, a lot
Speaker 4: of the resources, big thermal resources like coal had been
Speaker 4: retired or were retiring, so California could not lean as
Speaker 4: much on the West as it had when there might
Speaker 4: have been some gaps. The second thing is that California
Speaker 4: has a very high portfolio from a renewable perspective, and
Speaker 4: obviously there's a significant ramp out of those resources in
Speaker 4: the evening. So if you have a very hot period
Speaker 4: in California, so then you have air conditioning load that
Speaker 4: hangs onto the system into the evening, you have no solar,
Speaker 4: you have to count on the rest of the West. Well,
Speaker 4: when you get a big heat domb over the West,
Speaker 4: you now have competition for all that power. And there
Speaker 4: simply was not enough power across the West for California
Speaker 4: to lean on the West to bring in the power
Speaker 4: that it had, So we were forced to shed load
Speaker 4: because we simply did not have enough power to serve
Speaker 4: the load. However, There was not an issue of instability,
Speaker 4: frequency deviation, voltage VLAD or anything like that. It was
Speaker 4: simply a matter of supply and demand.
Speaker 1: On the top of that, you had the nuclear plant
Speaker 1: was supposed to be there or was not there anymore.
Speaker 4: Well, that kind of goes back to the resources. Sant
Speaker 4: and no Free is the I believe the nuclear plant
Speaker 4: you're referring to, Santa No Free had retired several years
Speaker 4: before this incident, so it did not play a role. However,
Speaker 4: it is consistent with the fact that resources across the
Speaker 4: West had been retiring and there was less to go
Speaker 4: around that and combined with large coal plants that were
Speaker 4: also retired in the West.
Speaker 5: Steve and I mean you, I ask you to talk
Speaker 5: a little bit about the so called Duck curve, maybe
Speaker 5: to explain to people what.
Speaker 2: This is and how you dealt with it, because I
Speaker 2: think this is also a critical part of preparing for
Speaker 2: a future.
Speaker 4: Exactly right, And it's an interesting The Duck curve was
Speaker 4: an interesting theme. As the grid operator, what we had
Speaker 4: done and I was the CEO when the Duck Curve
Speaker 4: came to be, what it was trying to do was
Speaker 4: illustrate as you add renewables onto the system. What other
Speaker 4: resources do you need around those renewables, And what it
Speaker 4: highlighted was that, of course we all know, when you
Speaker 4: have a high solar portfolio, you're going to have a
Speaker 4: very high rate operate in the morning, and then you're
Speaker 4: going to have a very high out ramp in the evening.
Speaker 4: And if you look at that in the inverse of that,
Speaker 4: it basically shows the non renewable resources going down very
Speaker 4: deep into the belly and then coming back up very
Speaker 4: much in the ramp in the evening, which gives you
Speaker 4: the duck. The duck also tells you something else. It
Speaker 4: shows that when you have these resources, you need the
Speaker 4: ramp in the evening. They need to be on during
Speaker 4: the day so they can do that. That adds power
Speaker 4: onto the system. That ultimately leads to overgeneration, which ultimately
Speaker 4: leads to significant curtailment. And the curtailment numbers in California
Speaker 4: have grown astronomically over the last several years as solars
Speaker 4: have been added to the system. But it is thematic
Speaker 4: of the fact that you have to look at the
Speaker 4: system as it is and then assess the resources you have.
Speaker 4: And another example is that the head of the duck
Speaker 4: where the big ramp is in the evening. We assessed
Speaker 4: continually whether the system had the necessary ramping resources to
Speaker 4: be able to do that, and the ramp would give
Speaker 4: as extreme as about thirteen or fourteen thousand megawatts per
Speaker 4: hour in the evening, so it's a very very significant ramp.
Speaker 4: A lot of people thought that the Duck curve was
Speaker 4: anti renewable and that we were pointing out the issues
Speaker 4: with renewables, which I couldn't disagree with more. The fact is,
Speaker 4: what we were trying to do is show how the
Speaker 4: renewables behaved so that we could very clear mindedly plan
Speaker 4: the system.
Speaker 1: So what solution were found in the past five years
Speaker 1: to change the system? Was it regulatory? Was it putting
Speaker 1: more thermal backup? And of course we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about batteries, So how did the system evolve?
Speaker 4: In California's case, largely it has been solved with batteries,
Speaker 4: and I believe the last count they had about ten
Speaker 4: thousand megawatts of capacity of batteries. You can see on
Speaker 4: the California ISO website when they're charged and discharged. And
Speaker 4: it's an outstanding marriage with the DUC chart because in
Speaker 4: the middle of the day, when you would be otherwise
Speaker 4: curtailing renewables, you can soak up those low cost green
Speaker 4: electrons and then discharge them into the ramp into the evening.
Speaker 4: So it's actually a very very good marriage. Large scale
Speaker 4: storage is a critical enabler to decarbonizing the grid and
Speaker 4: deploying large scale renewvals.
Speaker 5: And Steve can I ask that about the whole need
Speaker 5: for backup generation and inertia and all that.
Speaker 1: Can you explain it a little bit about what you
Speaker 1: have to do there.
Speaker 4: I don't want to get into the technical details of
Speaker 4: operating the grid too deeply, but Jared, what you're referring
Speaker 4: to is there are a number of things you have
Speaker 4: to do to operate the grid so that it's stable,
Speaker 4: and one of the things you refer to is inertia. Now,
Speaker 4: inertia is sort of the horsepower that you ump into
Speaker 4: the system to keep it stable, and you traditionally got
Speaker 4: inertia from spinning masses which come out of power plants. However,
Speaker 4: there is a concept of synthetic inertia that you can
Speaker 4: get from inverters, and in fact, inverters are much faster
Speaker 4: at reacting to system events. And the example I give
Speaker 4: is having a table that's held by one leg. Obviously,
Speaker 4: three legs is better, four is better, yet five is better.
Speaker 1: Yet.
Speaker 4: From a stability perspective, and the more inverters you have
Speaker 4: out there, actually you're more stable than if you would
Speaker 4: have just a couple of thermal resources at hand. From
Speaker 4: an inertia perspective, you need to make sure you have
Speaker 4: that reaction potential, but it can also come from inverters.
Speaker 1: So these are the famous Greek forming in rets because
Speaker 1: first the sort out, you are Greek. Following now they
Speaker 1: are great forming. So can you explain a bit what
Speaker 1: it is because we hear that a lot, but nobody
Speaker 1: explained it.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm not an electrical engineer, so I'm not going
Speaker 4: to go too deep into it. But inverters can provide
Speaker 4: reactive power which will manage the voltage on the system.
Speaker 4: And I know, let me fast forward to the red
Speaker 4: electrical issue. They had some issues with voltage that was
Speaker 4: spiking on their system. But you can use the inverters
Speaker 4: to boost and back, which are voltage terms of the system.
Speaker 4: So they basically can provide the same kind of resources.
Speaker 4: The other side of that is frequency, and an inverter
Speaker 4: can very quickly increase its frequency or decrease its frequency,
Speaker 4: depending on what's going on with the system, and can
Speaker 4: then smooth it and it can have roughly the same
Speaker 4: counter response as you would get from spinning resources.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go to Spain. Now, if I look at
Speaker 1: all the black out the past ten years, whether it's
Speaker 1: South Australia in two sixteen, so your you're blackouts in
Speaker 1: two or twenty, well, Louisiana earlier this year, and of
Speaker 1: course winter storm jury and in Ireland. They're all are
Speaker 1: linked to very severe weather events, whether it's storm, winter storm,
Speaker 1: heat waves. But in Spain apparently the weather was okay.
Speaker 1: So Jad, you just wrote a report on Spain. Can
Speaker 1: you remind our listener exactly what happened?
Speaker 5: Well, I'll be one hundred percent clear and say we're
Speaker 5: still not one hundred percent sure what happened.
Speaker 6: But what is clear is that you had a.
Speaker 1: Litany of mistakes.
Speaker 5: And it starts, for definitely, with quid planning, and one
Speaker 5: mistake led to another mistake, so led to another mistake,
Speaker 5: and then you.
Speaker 1: Had a problem.
Speaker 2: That's sort of what happened.
Speaker 5: But again it did start with bad planning, and the
Speaker 5: fact about it is there are no batteries in the system,
Speaker 5: there's not enough back of power in the system. I mean,
Speaker 5: there's a whole pile of reasons you could look at it,
Speaker 5: but it certainly does seem to lay most of the
Speaker 5: blame with Red Electric because the reality is just because
Speaker 5: one SOLDA plan goes off. Great Steve, you just talked
Speaker 5: about it. One plan goes off. I mean, that's your
Speaker 5: job to go make sure there's enough power there to
Speaker 5: match that, or you rejuiced.
Speaker 1: To minda whatever. They didn't do their job.
Speaker 4: I mean, that's the reality, Jared, I completely agree with you.
Speaker 4: You and I had a conversation shortly that, you know before,
Speaker 4: and I had seen at least the frequency readouts and
Speaker 4: voltage readouts of what had transpired, and I told that
Speaker 4: I didn't think Red Electrica was operating the system correctly,
Speaker 4: and that's what led to it. And what Jared's I
Speaker 4: agree with the hundred percent is usual a mistake upon
Speaker 4: mistake upon mistake that caused the problem. But there are
Speaker 4: some things I can observe from it that part of
Speaker 4: its planning, part of it was system operation. And let
Speaker 4: me give you some examples. I saw that there were
Speaker 4: significant oscillations on the system. A grid operator's job is
Speaker 4: to make sure that doesn't happen. Now, what was causing
Speaker 4: those oscillations, I don't know yet, but there are ways
Speaker 4: to control them, and there are ways to mitigate them,
Speaker 4: and they probably should have had more resources on the
Speaker 4: system to make sure they could respond to such things.
Speaker 4: And that's a grid opera's first responsibility is to run
Speaker 4: the grid securely, secure from loss of resources, from resource issues,
Speaker 4: from loss of transmission. You do a regular I know
Speaker 4: in California we did in every five minute review of
Speaker 4: where we stood, and that's the secured operation of the system.
Speaker 4: So I don't know what was causing the oscillations, but
Speaker 4: the oscillations, in my opinion, led to the blackout. And
Speaker 4: the first thing that happened was a large solar resource
Speaker 4: of the system dropped off. And let me explain why
Speaker 4: that might happen and draw this back to California experience
Speaker 4: as well. Inverters have got to be properly programmed to
Speaker 4: be able to ride through a grid disturbance or they
Speaker 4: will drop off. And in one case, we actually had
Speaker 4: where a much larger system in California than Red electricas is,
Speaker 4: so we could absorb it, but we lost seventeen hundred
Speaker 4: megawatts of solar one time because we had a grid disturbance.
Speaker 4: And then we went about analyzing that and figured out
Speaker 4: that the inverters could be programmed to ride through these
Speaker 4: issues much better than they are, and so we did that.
Speaker 4: Now we shared that with the international community, and Frankly
Speaker 4: red electrically as part of that international community. We shared
Speaker 4: it with. What I don't know is if those inverters
Speaker 4: could have been programmed better and then you would not
Speaker 4: have the oscillations, but you would not have lost that
Speaker 4: large chunk of solar. That's my hypothesis. I don't know
Speaker 4: that for fact, but if the inverters were operating i'll
Speaker 4: call it within parameter, they would not have dropped off,
Speaker 4: and in fact, they would have provided some help in
Speaker 4: dampening those oscillations. So that goes to planning. First, you
Speaker 4: got to plan the system. Do I have the resources
Speaker 4: or they programmed correctly? Can they operate in these various
Speaker 4: scenarios one is an oscilling scenario or other kind of
Speaker 4: grid disturbance. Once then the solar dropped off the system,
Speaker 4: it was a classic blackout, which is frequency collapses all
Speaker 4: the generators drop off the system because they're automatic generation
Speaker 4: control tries to protect them, and you get a classic blackout,
Speaker 4: and that's what happened. I believe the blackout could have
Speaker 4: been arrested with appropriate planning and finding. I still don't
Speaker 4: know what caused the oscillation. We got to get to that.
Speaker 4: The final thing I'll say is if they could have
Speaker 4: solve this with additional thermal commitments. I don't know what
Speaker 4: else they had to thermally commit that would have provided
Speaker 4: some resources for care operation. Or they could have deployed
Speaker 4: batteries which they don't have. But this goes back to
Speaker 4: you cannot just throw renewables onto the system. You have
Speaker 4: to plan the system around the rubles, make sure you
Speaker 4: have the necessary voltage control, make sure you have the
Speaker 4: necessary synthetic inertia, and make sure you have quick reaction resources.
Speaker 4: If you're going to retire thermal plants gas plants as
Speaker 4: an example, you're going to have to have batteries.
Speaker 1: You made a very very varied point. In Spain there
Speaker 1: are thirty giga out of gas plants. I know there
Speaker 1: have been policy question about capacity payments, which have been
Speaker 1: shelved and are planned again. But when you don't have
Speaker 1: batteries when your interconnection are weak. Because the interconnection is
Speaker 1: only with France, and you have thirty giga out of ccgts,
Speaker 1: you need to run those ccgts thirty gigawaut You're not
Speaker 1: going to run all of them all the time. But look,
Speaker 1: id of know you're you're the experts, So what do
Speaker 1: you say again?
Speaker 4: There are multiple ways they could have operated the system
Speaker 4: more securely, and you're touching on one of them. Always
Speaker 4: when you're the grid operator, Do I have the necessary
Speaker 4: ramping or out ramping in the case of renewables on
Speaker 4: the system at all time? Do I have enough to
Speaker 4: respond to voltage issues? Do I have enough to respond
Speaker 4: to loss of resources whether it's transmission or generation all
Speaker 4: the time. So this is a constant evaluation of the system.
Speaker 4: And my perspective is they either miscalculated or they aren't
Speaker 4: doing that on a regular basis, because if they had,
Speaker 4: they probably wouldn't needed to commit more of those ccgts
Speaker 4: to make sure they have the resource to fall back on.
Speaker 4: And Lauren, to your point, it sounds like they had them,
Speaker 4: they just weren't committed. And the problem with a CCGT
Speaker 4: is it takes a while to get spun up anyway,
Speaker 4: and again that's a good comparison to a battery, which
Speaker 4: can come on in sub second and respond. So batteries
Speaker 4: are actually very, very very useful when you have a
Speaker 4: large renewable space system.
Speaker 5: So Steve, I suppose just asked to reflections on it,
Speaker 5: what do we need to do across the world that
Speaker 5: to make sure that this type of blackout doesn't happen
Speaker 5: in the future, Because Lauren said earlier on is we're
Speaker 5: definitely seeing more extreme weather events right across the world
Speaker 5: double one. And you could also say, just from a
Speaker 5: let's say a national security point of view, it is.
Speaker 2: Just unacceptable not to have electricity. The society falls apart
Speaker 2: without it. So what do you think we need to
Speaker 2: do to make the system more resilient.
Speaker 4: Fundamentally, we need to take the politics out of it,
Speaker 4: because when a grid operator like myself or what I
Speaker 4: used to do, I'd say that renewables are intermittent, you know,
Speaker 4: and then people would say I'm anti renewable. Well, no
Speaker 4: I'm not. But the fact of the matter is they're intermittent.
Speaker 4: Solar comes up, ramps up very heavily in the morning,
Speaker 4: and ramps down hard in the evening. That's not anti renewable.
Speaker 4: That's how it operates. And then I take that and
Speaker 4: I say, okay, if that's how it operates, how do
Speaker 4: I then design a reliable system around that? And there
Speaker 4: are ways to design a reliable system around that. One
Speaker 4: is operating the system securely knowing the intermittence that's inherent
Speaker 4: in them. That goes back around to your point. Then
Speaker 4: I gotta make sure I have the necessary backup resources committed,
Speaker 4: or I design something like batteries that can come to
Speaker 4: my rescue in cases where I don't have enough thermal
Speaker 4: backup and I can do something else. But I think
Speaker 4: people need to take the politics out of it, because
Speaker 4: let's not lie to ourselves. Renewables are intermittent.
Speaker 1: They are.
Speaker 4: That's okay, that's not bad. You just need to plan
Speaker 4: around it. And I think that's the thing that people
Speaker 4: miss is they get too political about it and then
Speaker 4: they forget about the planning around it. But there are
Speaker 4: a few fundamental things I need to do. One is,
Speaker 4: obviously you have to fill in around the intermittency. The
Speaker 4: second thing you have to do is make sure you
Speaker 4: have fast response resources to respond when things go south.
Speaker 5: Can I ask you about one other thing, which is
Speaker 5: this whole area of dunkel flout. In other words, when
Speaker 5: you've got no win, no soular for three days in
Speaker 5: winter months, what do you do?
Speaker 2: What's the solution there?
Speaker 4: The best solution there is operate regionally, and I think
Speaker 4: that Europe has actually does a much much better job
Speaker 4: than the US does. And the key to that is
Speaker 4: make sure you have enough interconnectivity between the regions to
Speaker 4: share resources. Because generally, generally, if you have I don't
Speaker 4: know the German term you used there, but I presume
Speaker 4: that means the calm winds and there's cloudy guys. So
Speaker 4: that's going to happen, but it may happen in Germany,
Speaker 4: but it's not going to happen in Spain and France
Speaker 4: at the same time. And so regional collaboration I think
Speaker 4: is absolutely the most important thing, and I think that
Speaker 4: Europe does it better than the US. I think the
Speaker 4: US US gets very political about who controls what and
Speaker 4: do all those kind of things. The West, as an example,
Speaker 4: in the US has thirty eight balancing authorities. That's crazy,
Speaker 4: it's inefficient, it cost people money, is bad for renewables.
Speaker 4: So my perspective is the best answers to operate regionally
Speaker 4: and Lauren, perhaps even a transmission line or from North
Speaker 4: America to Europe.
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, definitely. It's as you said, it's all based
Speaker 1: on the fact that the peaks are not aligned and
Speaker 1: the wind doesn't blow at the same time. So the
Speaker 1: economics of a trans at antique into connectors are fantastic. Really,
Speaker 1: technically it's going to be difficult, but the strength is
Speaker 1: going to bring to both grids is phenomenal.
Speaker 4: Well, let's just go back to Spain again. If they
Speaker 4: had had additional connectors, they probably also wouldn't have had
Speaker 4: the problem. So there are multiple ways I think they
Speaker 4: could have avoided this problem.
Speaker 1: Look in Front in two twenty two, they lost thirty
Speaker 1: five gigawad of nuclear never had to blackout because they
Speaker 1: are in the middle of the continent and every country
Speaker 1: came to their rescue.
Speaker 4: It's the same way Jorge was just talking about in Germany.
Speaker 4: How does Germany survive the know when no solar days. Well,
Speaker 4: they're heavily connected to other parts of Europe, which I
Speaker 4: think is very very important.
Speaker 1: Well, Steve, it was a great to be on the show.
Speaker 1: Explain us the blackouts. It more here than all the
Speaker 1: reports I've seen and all the Inner Shack expelled on
Speaker 1: LinkedIn all of a sudden. So thank you very.
Speaker 4: Much, thank you Laurn, thank you Jared. It was a
Speaker 4: pleasure to be with you guys, and I'll look forward
Speaker 4: to further conversations.
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot.
Speaker 5: Steve brilliant.
Speaker 2: So Luren, what do you think?
Speaker 1: Well, first, I'm happy that we make this show so
Speaker 1: we have the capacity to invite such great guests as Steve,
Speaker 1: and frankly, I learned more in twenty minutes of discussion
Speaker 1: with him than reading those hundreds of pages of reports.
Speaker 6: I agree with you that, and also it's just very direct.
Speaker 6: You know, he's coming from his experience as well. I
Speaker 6: thought that was an interesting point where you talk about
Speaker 6: the need for new different types of inertia. He answered
Speaker 6: the question very well, but he's also very modest about himself.
Speaker 1: You know. It just great.
Speaker 6: You know, I'm not really an expert in that area.
Speaker 2: Both of course your expert there you rather Grid.
Speaker 1: Great guy.
Speaker 2: Great, great to have a character like that, lout.
Speaker 1: You know, okay, job, before we go, there's this earlier
Speaker 1: report that goes out. We just want to suvute them.
Speaker 1: It's the former VP Statistical Review called the Energy Institute, now,
Speaker 1: isn't it. Yeah, it's the Energy Institute. So they just
Speaker 1: put out their seventy fourth edition with Kenny and KPMG
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna summarize, but it's a look, it's a
Speaker 1: very good I bought. It's important it goes out every year.
Speaker 2: No, absolutely, it's the in terms of statistics, the Bible
Speaker 2: of statistics. In around global energy.
Speaker 1: The findings are win and solar combined grew up by
Speaker 1: sixteen percent, but half of it was from China. Win
Speaker 1: and sola grew nine times faster than total energy demand,
Speaker 1: but forssil fuel also grew one percent, So emissions on
Speaker 1: the top. Basically everything's on the top, you know, col oil, gas,
Speaker 1: renewable hydro. But thanks God, most of the heavy lifting
Speaker 1: in terms of growth now is done by renewable. So
Speaker 1: overall it's so full. Of course, it's not going fast enough,
Speaker 1: but this is Earth we're talking about, so it takes
Speaker 1: a bit of time. Shut us, shut us, okay, my friend,
Speaker 1: great and with thanks Steve and I took you next week.
Speaker 1: Look border bye, thank.
Speaker 2: You for listening to redefining energy.
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