Speaker 1: All the weather outside is frightful, but the fire is
Speaker 1: so delightful.
Speaker 2: And since we've no place to go, let it snow,
Speaker 2: Let it snow.
Speaker 1: Let it snow.
Speaker 2: Man, it doesn't show signs is stopping.
Speaker 3: And I've brought me some corn for Poppa.
Speaker 2: The lights are turned to weed down load, Let it snow.
Speaker 1: Let it snow. When we're finally kissed, good night.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's Christmas time going out. The classics are being played.
Speaker 4: Everyone's doing the last minute shopping and trying to get
Speaker 4: in the mood. And it is Christmas is a prelude
Speaker 4: to the big day coming up here. And I hope
Speaker 4: you're doing well. Welcome to earth, ancients. I'm your host,
Speaker 4: Cliff Dunning. And if you're not in the spirit, I
Speaker 4: hope you're getting in the spirit. And I've always talked
Speaker 4: about eggnog and brandy and good food and companions and
Speaker 4: you know, friends and things like that. And that's what
Speaker 4: Christmas is all about, is gathering. And I hope you
Speaker 4: are preparing for the holidays and whatever way that I
Speaker 4: usually used to do a tree, now it's more of
Speaker 4: a wreath and lights. Some people do big production. My
Speaker 4: brother who has the annual Christmas event has this huge ceiling,
Speaker 4: I think it's ceiling, and it's like seventeen fifteen, seventeen
Speaker 4: feet high, and he gets a huge tree. The tree
Speaker 4: is about twelve feet and my sister in law decorates
Speaker 4: the tree as lavishly as she can each year. And
Speaker 4: it's really it's fun to live vicariously through others because
Speaker 4: I don't want to go do all that preparation and
Speaker 4: then have to take it all down. So anyhow, we're
Speaker 4: getting close. We're getting close to Christmas, and I hope
Speaker 4: you're getting in the mood in the season. I just
Speaker 4: got back from an amazing tour two weeks in Guatemala.
Speaker 4: Had never been there before, and I got to say
Speaker 4: that the group we had to a person, were wonderful,
Speaker 4: really good people, and together we experienced the ancient world
Speaker 4: of the Maya at places like to Call and we
Speaker 4: started at Guatemala City and then we did a tour.
Speaker 4: I got to mention this. The museums in Guatemala, the
Speaker 4: National Ethropological Museum, is really fabulous and if you want
Speaker 4: to see a few of the photographs that represent this
Speaker 4: one major anthropological museum, go to Earth Ancients Facebook page.
Speaker 4: I'm posting groupings of photographs the sculpture, this standing sculpture
Speaker 4: is really quite wonderful, and there's one piece in particular
Speaker 4: where this king is is really emerging from the stone,
Speaker 4: beautifully carved arms, legs, his clothing, and his face is
Speaker 4: pretty much worn down, but you get a sense of
Speaker 4: what he must have looked like when he was carved.
Speaker 4: And it's just one of many pieces that I feature
Speaker 4: in these galleries, and I'll continue to post these galleries
Speaker 4: for the next couple of weeks as I can download
Speaker 4: the information. I have a unique special edition that's coming
Speaker 4: out next week as kind of a Christmas present, where
Speaker 4: I interview one of the local archaeologists, a Guatemalan archaeologist,
Speaker 4: who has a completely different take on what we consider
Speaker 4: tolleric energy coming out of these pyramids, and I was
Speaker 4: surprised that he hadn't been indoctrinated into the hole there's
Speaker 4: no energy. These are temples built to the gods kind
Speaker 4: of thing. This perception that I recorded will be surprising
Speaker 4: to a lot of people because basically their belief is
Speaker 4: from the generations of earlier families in Maya that these
Speaker 4: are energy generators, and they don't quite know how that
Speaker 4: energy was used because there's no more information. The earlier
Speaker 4: generations didn't leave much on how to work with that energy.
Speaker 4: But we actually all together climbed to the Lost World
Speaker 4: pyramid in Tikal and sat up at the very top,
Speaker 4: and you can feel, if you close your eyes a
Speaker 4: low frequency of some kind of pulsation of energy that
Speaker 4: was emerging from this pyramid. And this is exactly what
Speaker 4: I've been talking about for years about John Burke's work,
Speaker 4: this scientist businessman who climbed to the top of the
Speaker 4: Lost World and to call and actually conducted testing on
Speaker 4: how much energy is coming out, what the energy seems
Speaker 4: to be doing, and the time of day when it's
Speaker 4: the strongest. And we were there in the as I see,
Speaker 4: the afternoon, so the field energy was a lot weaker,
Speaker 4: but you can still feel it. And we were up there,
Speaker 4: our group with some other people, and I wondered if
Speaker 4: all those people were dissipating the energy. I would have
Speaker 4: liked to have gone up there alone, but it's just
Speaker 4: not possible because to cause a very popular place. So anyhow,
Speaker 4: this interview that I'll feature next week with this archaeologist
Speaker 4: is a little bit of an eye opener and it's
Speaker 4: a breath of fresh air. And I'm really glad that
Speaker 4: I was able to interview him and get a sense
Speaker 4: of what the local thinking is on these pyramids. So
Speaker 4: you can expect that next week now Today's programs with
Speaker 4: returning guest Adam Young. Adam used to be a regular
Speaker 4: in the very beginnings of Earth Ancients. He was a
Speaker 4: research investigator and at the time he had in his
Speaker 4: possession some of these stone were were from Egypt that
Speaker 4: we didn't really pay a great deal of attention to,
Speaker 4: other than the fact that they were cut with a
Speaker 4: level of perfection and precision that was strangely out of
Speaker 4: sorts for the time period they were found in. And
Speaker 4: these plates and vases and bowls now have been recognized
Speaker 4: as very very early pre Dynastic representations of an unknown civilization.
Speaker 4: And they're very hard stone, and we think they're cut
Speaker 4: on lays, but now we're not so sure, and they
Speaker 4: are falling into the classification of out of place artifacts.
Speaker 4: That means that they are so anomalous that no one
Speaker 4: has a clue. In fact, at the end of this
Speaker 4: interview today, you'll hear from Adam that he doesn't even
Speaker 4: know after years of analysis. Our technology just is not
Speaker 4: able to perceive. Current technology is not able to perceive
Speaker 4: how these were cut, how they were shaped, how they
Speaker 4: were polished, and above all were they used for everyday
Speaker 4: household items holding liquids, holding food, whatever or has been.
Speaker 4: Van Kirkwick, who he had on a few months ago,
Speaker 4: likes to think they may be a form of technology.
Speaker 4: They may be part of a machine, because the tolerances
Speaker 4: that they are cut at are so precise that it
Speaker 4: doesn't make sense that they'd be just used for simple
Speaker 4: household use. Hence the term stoneware, like you would get
Speaker 4: that you would buy at a store, plates and bulls
Speaker 4: and cups and such. So that's our program today, And
Speaker 4: I gotta tell you there is a series of photographs
Speaker 4: that Adam has sent to me which represents the testing pieces,
Speaker 4: but also there's some other images of machinery testing devices
Speaker 4: that were used to get a sense of just how
Speaker 4: perfect and how precise these objects were cut. So today's
Speaker 4: program is out of place artifacts from ancient Egypt. And
Speaker 4: my guest is Adam Young. Yeah, I got a new
Speaker 4: product for you. It's called Nord VPN. What's a VPN.
Speaker 4: It's a virtual private network, a tool that creates a
Speaker 4: encrypted tunnel for your data, protect your online identity by
Speaker 4: hiding your IP address, and allow you to enjoy increased
Speaker 4: security from all networks. With a VPN, you can protect
Speaker 4: your Internet connection and increase your privacy online. But that's
Speaker 4: not all. If you're tired of the streaming service you've
Speaker 4: been using, you can actually go outside of your own
Speaker 4: service and take a spin around the world. If you've
Speaker 4: heard about other streaming services, consider using Nord VPN and
Speaker 4: checking out other programs. With five thousand plus server options,
Speaker 4: no show is out of your reach. Grab your exclusive
Speaker 4: Nord VPN deal by going to NordVPN dot com, Forward
Speaker 4: Slash Earth Ancients to get a huge discount off your
Speaker 4: Nord VPN plan plus four additional months. On top of that,
Speaker 4: it's completely risk free with Nord's thirty day money back guarantee.
Speaker 4: Don't forget there is literally no risk to you with
Speaker 4: their thirty day money back guarantee. Give it a try
Speaker 4: and if you like it great. If you don't, they'll
Speaker 4: issue a refund and you can pretend the entire situation
Speaker 4: never happened. Check it out NordVPN dot com, Forward Slash
Speaker 4: Earth Ancients and get your subscriptions started today. The term
Speaker 4: out of place artifacts has been in vogue for a
Speaker 4: while now. And when we talk about ancient Egypt, artifacts
Speaker 4: are collected in the thousands, if they're not the millions,
Speaker 4: and a number of them are out of place. In
Speaker 4: other words, they are unique in many ways. Mohammedan Imbrahim
Speaker 4: and introduced me to a number of stone where pieces.
Speaker 4: This is about almost eight ninety years ago, and I
Speaker 4: didn't realize that they not only are available to see
Speaker 4: in the museums, but they're collected by people. And I
Speaker 4: remember when we had Adam Young on the program. He
Speaker 4: was discussing these and I didn't pay attention until Been
Speaker 4: Kirkwick brought him up and was just talking about him.
Speaker 4: And we've had Adam on, Adams coming back to us.
Speaker 4: We had Adam on quite regularly about seven eight years ago,
Speaker 4: and we have him back with this to talk about
Speaker 4: these these artifacts. And you know, Adam's like, hey, look,
Speaker 4: I got I have these for many years and I
Speaker 4: wasn't paying attention, and I'm paying attention now. And Adam
Speaker 4: is a research investigator. He's done not only some excellent
Speaker 4: work in describing these out of place artifacts, but he's
Speaker 4: shown up and was part of the Cosmic Summit which
Speaker 4: just happened in North Carolina and was presenting these. So hey, Adam, great,
Speaker 4: welcome back, buddy, and thanks for joining me.
Speaker 1: Well, thanks, Cliff. Yeah, it's been too long.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's funny because you know, I remember you telling
Speaker 4: me about these items that you had, and I thought
Speaker 4: at the time maybe my head wasn't screwed on, right,
Speaker 4: but they were very, very unique because of the precision.
Speaker 4: But what was attraction? What was the attraction for you
Speaker 4: when you began collect these I don't know, it's been
Speaker 4: at least ten years now, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think I probably wasn't as knowledgeable back then, so
Speaker 1: I was describing what I thought was anomalous, and I
Speaker 1: think I had only conducted a few, you know, somewhat
Speaker 1: rudimentary or initial scans in that analysis afterwards, and just
Speaker 1: didn't really know how big it would be or how
Speaker 1: prevalent this sort of data is. And since then, we've,
Speaker 1: you know, we've I've created a pretty big team of
Speaker 1: researchers from mostly North America and Europe, and we've been
Speaker 1: conducting this in concert with institutions like museums and universities,
Speaker 1: and so it's really grown a lot and we have
Speaker 1: a lot more data. We have a bigger story oftell
Speaker 1: I think at this point, and you know, it's taken
Speaker 1: a while, but it's difficult because of the thousands of
Speaker 1: years of sort of like dogmatic archaeological accepted, mainstream ideas
Speaker 1: that we had to you know, overcome.
Speaker 4: Do you now feel that these items are much more
Speaker 4: important than just being vases and plates and bowls for
Speaker 4: everyday household use or do they have more of a
Speaker 4: place as machines or devices that are part of machines,
Speaker 4: or sophisticated applications of some kind.
Speaker 1: That's a great question. I really don't know. I think
Speaker 1: it could go either way. I have a strong sense
Speaker 1: that they were made using advanced knowledge of machining and
Speaker 1: techniques to achieve the levels of precision and very little
Speaker 1: tolerance as that we're seeing. But what to what end? Well,
Speaker 1: if this was just easy and very possible, it's it's
Speaker 1: conceivable that the rudimentary, like normal objects would would be made.
Speaker 1: We don't really make anything today purely by hand that's
Speaker 1: designed to be purposeful, right, So like most of our
Speaker 1: most art is made by hand today, but not things
Speaker 1: that you find in your kitchen and bathroom that's generally
Speaker 1: made using machines just because it's easier, it's faster. So
Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything wrong with saying these were
Speaker 1: mundane objects. They were vases and stoneware or platewaar, things
Speaker 1: like that. That could potentially be true, or they could
Speaker 1: be components in something different, something with higher function. It's
Speaker 1: been speculated by Kristow and others that potentially there's resonant
Speaker 1: properties and some of these things that they could have
Speaker 1: functioned in harmony in some sort of a monumental building
Speaker 1: like a pyramid or other places. I just don't know
Speaker 1: enough to say whether or not. You know, I have
Speaker 1: an opinion on that. I'm more concerned with kind of
Speaker 1: when these are made and by who, and less so
Speaker 1: to what end. It would be great to have answers
Speaker 1: to all of these questions, so maybe one day we'll
Speaker 1: have a little bit more than we do now.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly did Petrie collect these items? I know he's
Speaker 4: got like cores. I was at the Peatrie Museum in
Speaker 4: London a couple of years ago, and the cores are
Speaker 4: very obviously some form of machinery. But does he collect
Speaker 4: I didn't. I don't think I saw any of the
Speaker 4: bulls or vases that are very popular right now.
Speaker 1: You know, Petrie was all he was in Giza, he
Speaker 1: was in Abydos, he was he was up and down
Speaker 1: the Nile, and he he did, he collected them. He
Speaker 1: he brought back hundreds of thousands of objects from Egypt.
Speaker 1: So these were a big part of it. He was
Speaker 1: fascinated by these. He thought these were originally he thought
Speaker 1: they were made by like he said, he used the
Speaker 1: term aliens, but he was talking about aliens that were
Speaker 1: not native to the region. So he thought there were
Speaker 1: some sort of invaders or Libyans or something like that
Speaker 1: that had come into the to the area and potentially
Speaker 1: found in Egypt. Because he he he had excavated some
Speaker 1: of these in very old sites and said, oh this,
Speaker 1: these people must have been who built all this stuff.
Speaker 1: And because there's so much more advanced than any of
Speaker 1: the other pottery or or lithics or or whatever surviving
Speaker 1: in these in these burials, it's not much pottery would survive.
Speaker 1: Generally would wouldn't, but sometimes it would if it was
Speaker 1: preserved in the desert, and it was especially the Middle
Speaker 1: and Lake Kingdom. We see, we do see wood objects,
Speaker 1: but these were just of a much different nature, and
Speaker 1: they seemed to be replicated in other mediums potentially later on,
Speaker 1: such as such as the pottery. You see some pottery
Speaker 1: that seems to be emulating a lot of a stone.
Speaker 1: And so yet he was he was obsessed, uh, with
Speaker 1: a lot of this. He he was in themes, he
Speaker 1: was in the Fayoum, Nakada, of course Albudo's lux or Armana,
Speaker 1: a lot of different places, and he he found these
Speaker 1: in relatively small quantities in specific geographical locations. A French
Speaker 1: archaeologist later on uh up to probably up to thirty
Speaker 1: years after Patree first started finding these in recording them,
Speaker 1: found many thousands of these at Sakara. So it wasn't
Speaker 1: just Petrie, was others. But Petrie started really documenting this
Speaker 1: and he was He's called the father of Egyptology for
Speaker 1: a reason, right. He introduced He introduced really at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, he was he just really cared
Speaker 1: more than anyone else, and he didn't think this was
Speaker 1: a treasure hunting game. He thought this stuff had to
Speaker 1: be protected in some way, and so he did take
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff back, but he's and he gave
Speaker 1: it to his benefactors and museums and sold some stuff. Yes,
Speaker 1: but what he didn't do was destroy it. He never
Speaker 1: used dynamite. He was very careful. He was concerned about
Speaker 1: preservation because he recognized the importance of this a lot
Speaker 1: of this material.
Speaker 4: What is the unique factors in these vases and the
Speaker 4: I'm just going to call him stoneware because that's what
Speaker 4: I considered them as I have. Two years ago, I
Speaker 4: got a part of a cup that was cut right
Speaker 4: in half. I got it from an archaeologist. From that
Speaker 4: Muhammad introduced to me. And the level of precision is machined,
Speaker 4: is some form of machinery. But describe the uniqueness of
Speaker 4: these vases, bulls whatever, that makes them really out of
Speaker 4: place for the time period, and why there's such a
Speaker 4: unique item.
Speaker 1: I think it's important to recognize that not everything we
Speaker 1: dig up and look at is super impressive, right, and
Speaker 1: not every stone base is very precise. A lot of
Speaker 1: them are a lot of the ones that we're interested
Speaker 1: in analyzing end up being that way because we can
Speaker 1: see that they are before. We can see that they
Speaker 1: look symmetrical, right, they look very geometric. They look like
Speaker 1: they were made by hands or something that wasn't making
Speaker 1: the other stuff, and so you know, we have a
Speaker 1: bit of a selection bias. Not there's millions of objects
Speaker 1: that were taken out of Egypt. You know, we don't
Speaker 1: have the time or the energy or the interest analyze everything.
Speaker 1: But when we're talking about like the different categories, perhaps
Speaker 1: generally the ones that are the most precise are the oldest,
Speaker 1: So that is that's something that really needs to be clarified.
Speaker 1: Many of them are labeled pre dynastic. They were found
Speaker 1: in burials that pre date any of the dynasties by
Speaker 1: up to thousands of years, up to one to two
Speaker 1: thousand years at least, and I've heard other excavations have
Speaker 1: potentially uncovered things that were even older. But there's there's
Speaker 1: a gap in the archaeological record also. But what we're
Speaker 1: seeing is complex spherical geometry in these vessels called in
Speaker 1: phases if you like, That is not of a simple
Speaker 1: cylindrical nature. Cylinders are not that difficult to get around.
Speaker 1: We can use grinding tech. Very rudimentary grinding techniques given
Speaker 1: enough time, will in part round us. They have you know,
Speaker 1: potentially low friction as well, so you can carve a
Speaker 1: really really round cylinder with primitive techniques. But these are
Speaker 1: complex spherical geometry. Sometimes there's there's hyperbolic features. Sometimes they're elliptical,
Speaker 1: which is crazy. We could talk about that and a
Speaker 1: bit too like ol in nature. So there's effectively too
Speaker 1: radio folk. We don't know how they were made, but
Speaker 1: we haven't. I haven't seen anyone make them really today,
Speaker 1: even with modern machinery. We think it's possible. Sure, a
Speaker 1: lot of people think it's possible, but it's expensive and
Speaker 1: time consuming and so, like you were asking me earlier,
Speaker 1: some of these used to be cheap one hundreds of
Speaker 1: dollars or a few thousand dollars. That wouldn't really make
Speaker 1: sense if it was very difficult and laborious to create.
Speaker 1: Not to mention the the old the different geometric features
Speaker 1: like the interiors that a contour to the outside for
Speaker 1: to some extent, whether or it's not just a cordial
Speaker 1: or cylindrical dig out, it's really contour and that's extremely
Speaker 1: difficult to do in any hearts igneous rock. Right, So
Speaker 1: we're talking about grantite diarte sometimes porphyry and serpentine and
Speaker 1: others like that, but we're not really talking about, or
Speaker 1: at least not enough is the alabaster, so that there's
Speaker 1: a whole lot of alabaster. Alabaster was an industry in
Speaker 1: Egypt all the way through the New Kingdom, and so
Speaker 1: we know that Dynastic Egyptians did make a lot of alabaster.
Speaker 1: The ones that they appear to have made, we don't
Speaker 1: really see the level of quite the level of precision
Speaker 1: that we see in the older ones, but we do
Speaker 1: see some alabaster that appear to be old, that appear
Speaker 1: to be as precise as the igneous rock ones too.
Speaker 1: So it's a long period of time. There's thousands of
Speaker 1: years that evolved that went on there, and there was
Speaker 1: different groups doing different things. But I think it's, you know,
Speaker 1: something that that really was never It wasn't studied enough.
Speaker 1: It was came to vogue in the Victorian error and
Speaker 1: archaeologists to use something called form based dating to try
Speaker 1: to date some of these things. So they were found
Speaker 1: in tombs, and if the tombs, if we think we
Speaker 1: know the tomb is to twenty five years old or
Speaker 1: six nine to see whatever, then they would describe that
Speaker 1: age to the object. Irrespective of the fact that every
Speaker 1: rooms are handed down right, So that was always ignored.
Speaker 1: But then they would they would say, well, this form
Speaker 1: matched another form, we're confident on that date. So then
Speaker 1: everything that looks like that, or most things that look
Speaker 1: like that are now that age just because they look similar, right,
Speaker 1: And what that's led to is just I think inaccuracy
Speaker 1: and dating of all sorts of objects, not just these vases.
Speaker 1: There's extreme it's it's extremely imprecise, is what I would
Speaker 1: the way I would describe it. Yes, we can carbonate
Speaker 1: bodies if you can't carbon date stone, of course, so
Speaker 1: form based dating doesn't make sense, and it relies on
Speaker 1: assumptions like people are going to make the same thing
Speaker 1: for a period of time. We see certain objects that
Speaker 1: are classified, they look very very similar, and the date
Speaker 1: dates can range by two thousand years, which I think
Speaker 1: is just really knowledgical to think that a group of
Speaker 1: people would be making the same thing for two thousand years,
Speaker 1: or that a group of people would even exist for
Speaker 1: two thousand years. Right. So it's a huge subject. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we can talk about it all night, Like, can
Speaker 1: you show us.
Speaker 4: A couple of pieces that you find are great examples
Speaker 4: of perhaps your own collection?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, let's see.
Speaker 4: My curiosity is that you've named a number of very
Speaker 4: hard rocks stone and the initial idea was that they
Speaker 4: were placed on lays and spun a great revolution and
Speaker 4: then cut. But the tools to cut would have to
Speaker 4: be very very sharp. And also there's the issue with
Speaker 4: the handle or the grip. I don't know how I
Speaker 4: should describe it. If they stop and then start again
Speaker 4: and then carve the handle, it's like, how the hell
Speaker 4: did they explain that? You know, it's a very unique vessel.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you're talking about lug handles, you're talking
Speaker 1: about these sort of these things, right or how how
Speaker 1: would that have happened? Right? I don't know. It's it's
Speaker 1: difficult to to really even speculate. But most likely there
Speaker 1: was a toroidal band that was left around the body
Speaker 1: of the ain't it and the materials removed to reveal
Speaker 1: the handles. Uh, we don't. We don't see. What we
Speaker 1: do see is a very high levels of precision in
Speaker 1: the middle of where the handles are, which which would
Speaker 1: not correspond to cutting the whole thing on the leaves.
Speaker 1: So there must have been multiple processes involved. I think
Speaker 1: that's probably not controversial, but we do see you know,
Speaker 1: we see other we see playing that don't. So here's
Speaker 1: a few that don't. This is from the Peture Museum.
Speaker 1: Here's another one from the Peture Museum that we be analyzed.
Speaker 1: This one was remarkably precise, but interestingly enough, the interior
Speaker 1: was much more precise in the exterior.
Speaker 4: Are you showing something because I can't see it? Oh?
Speaker 1: Yes, one second, be able to see this.
Speaker 4: Now I can see the screens in the night. There
Speaker 4: you go. Perfect.
Speaker 1: Yeah. This is an example of a vessel with lug
Speaker 1: handles and then vessels without. On the left. This is
Speaker 1: from the Petring Museum, where the interior is more precise
Speaker 1: in the exterior.
Speaker 4: Hm hmmm.
Speaker 1: So it's not always the other way out. Most of
Speaker 1: the time we've seen xteriors are much more round than
Speaker 1: the interior because the interior is very difficult to cut
Speaker 1: to begin with, let alone to finish to whatever level
Speaker 1: of accuracy or precision that was desired. And I think
Speaker 1: back to your other point, we don't see any that
Speaker 1: are exactly the same. But from these four you can
Speaker 1: see that there's this is this would be something that
Speaker 1: would let it tell to form based dating. So these
Speaker 1: these look very similar. It's a very similar design. They're
Speaker 1: not exactly the same, but these are all different materials.
Speaker 1: That's real red granite to you know, to assault and
Speaker 1: then limestone the right.
Speaker 4: You know what's funny about these adam is that I
Speaker 4: don't have never seen these this this shape. They're all
Speaker 4: kind of similar design, but they're gorgeous, they're beautiful, and
Speaker 4: to say these are just random? What are archaeological What
Speaker 4: are thetological communities saying about these? Are they paying attention
Speaker 4: to the craftsmanship or is it just the general assumption
Speaker 4: that this is just the way it is with the
Speaker 4: Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom, New Cakedom. You know, how are
Speaker 4: they explaining this.
Speaker 1: Well in terms of how First of all, in terms
Speaker 1: of dating, there there's there's there is, there's consensus with
Speaker 1: respect to you know, we think we know who made
Speaker 1: these things. We think they think they know where most
Speaker 1: of uh, the pharaohs and kings were eventually buried right
Speaker 1: not inside pyramids namely, but and in other areas. There's
Speaker 1: there's burials around Abbeydoss burials and their Gizes burials in
Speaker 1: the around Luxwre and u value of the kings and queens.
Speaker 1: But in terms of like who made things. That's a lot,
Speaker 1: it's a lot less clear. Uh. You may find the
Speaker 1: name of someone on a on a building or on
Speaker 1: a wall, and that's typically who who is who is
Speaker 1: attributed to having made that thing. But what if you
Speaker 1: don't right, what if there's no what if there's no
Speaker 1: name on something that still needs a name, It still
Speaker 1: needs to be attributed to someone. And so that's where
Speaker 1: I think the theory came in. That's where the you know,
Speaker 1: the practice of that we still sort of see today.
Speaker 1: It started in the eighteen hundreds and it's persisted, and
Speaker 1: that's archaeologists are very reluctant to question those ideas, like
Speaker 1: did Pharaohs build the very impressive pyramids? Did dynastic Egyptians
Speaker 1: make this stuff? Some of this stuff? They were very
Speaker 1: impressive people. Yeah, they were astronomers, physicists, like spectacular doctors
Speaker 1: and musicians, everything. They were extremely impressive. However, I think
Speaker 1: with some of these objects, we don't see any evidence
Speaker 1: that they had the tools of the technology to make them.
Speaker 1: I think I think some of these vessels are an
Speaker 1: example of that. But we have something also very interesting
Speaker 1: in that a lot of these vessels, a lot of
Speaker 1: the very precise ones were actually not found in the
Speaker 1: possession of dynastic Egyptians. They were found in a precursor
Speaker 1: civilization that was much less advanced. Yeah, and that's namely Nakata.
Speaker 1: And so that's that's really probably my favorite part of
Speaker 1: the story because this culture was living in mud husts.
Speaker 1: They they trade it a lot, so who knows where
Speaker 1: they got them from. But then they were found buried
Speaker 1: with these and so that's what Petri was excavating and
Speaker 1: was very focused on for much of his life. But
Speaker 1: this culture didn't have spindles. They didn't have the wheel
Speaker 1: as far as we know, and they did have pottery. Coincidentally,
Speaker 1: their pottery was handmade. It was made by coiling or
Speaker 1: pinching the clay. What they didn't have a pottery wheel.
Speaker 1: These objects, these these stone vessels, appear to have been
Speaker 1: made on something that's rotating. You can see rotational marks
Speaker 1: in a lot of these. You see grooves, you see
Speaker 1: the evidence of pantoles. Or imagine something spinning on a
Speaker 1: lathe and you holding an object to it. You see
Speaker 1: that pressure equally rotating around the object. That's that had
Speaker 1: to have been done by revolving equipment of some sort
Speaker 1: right indicating the wheel or the lay that was used.
Speaker 1: That doesn't seem to have been in Egypt until three
Speaker 1: thousand years oh, three thousand BC, and it certainly wasn't
Speaker 1: in Nakata. They didn't use it for anything else, so
Speaker 1: they must not have had it.
Speaker 4: What's caught a time frame that these are found is
Speaker 4: that like four thousand BC.
Speaker 1: I think it's roughly three to five. A lot of
Speaker 1: these are found in that sort of forest, a little
Speaker 1: Singakata two a lot in a lot of times, which
Speaker 1: is like thirty five hundred to four or up to
Speaker 1: forty five hundred pc. So sometimes I think it's you
Speaker 1: can say one to two thousand years before thy dastic Egypt.
Speaker 4: What are two thousand years? So are you speculating that
Speaker 4: this is from a culture that is Ice age, like
Speaker 4: perhaps nine thousand, five hundred or earlier, prior to the
Speaker 4: hypothesis of the catastrophe, the Younger Driest hypothesis.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Again, it's really hard to speculate that this is
Speaker 1: evidence of the turning marks I was referring to. Oh excellent, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: So this this the thing was being rotated right on
Speaker 1: a fixed axis spindle something something that was rotating in
Speaker 1: a circular motion. That's why you see those lines like that.
Speaker 4: Your exercise very precise cuts too.
Speaker 1: There. You wouldn't get that if you were holding it
Speaker 1: and scraping it right, you wouldn't see that. So they're
Speaker 1: made using rotating tools. It's of some sort. The timeline
Speaker 1: that you're asking about is tricky, so let's just use
Speaker 1: five thousand BC as the start of Nikata, just for argument.
Speaker 1: Seeing we don't see much in the filesil record or
Speaker 1: in the archaeological record, excuse me, from five to ten
Speaker 1: thousand BC, there's very little. I don't know. Why. Is
Speaker 1: that because Nikata found them? All right? I don't know.
Speaker 1: Was there something else at play? Did Nikata? Did they?
Speaker 1: Did they trade for these things? They were world travelers.
Speaker 1: They were all up and down Africa, they were in
Speaker 1: the Middle East, all the way up to Syria. Did
Speaker 1: they trade for these and bring them back somewhere else?
Speaker 1: I don't know. But a lot of these were you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of these were found during that time period
Speaker 1: and not much before. I've heard stories that some of
Speaker 1: these have been found before. I haven't really seen documentation
Speaker 1: of it yet. So that's very interested to see that.
Speaker 1: I don't know when they were made. But Nikata is
Speaker 1: really the only civilization that predates Dynastic Egypt that we
Speaker 1: really know much about it all. There's Badarians, There's a
Speaker 1: number of other cultures that existed back then. None of
Speaker 1: them were sophisticated. They weren't even close to Dynastic Egypt
Speaker 1: from what we believe is true. They were much simpler,
Speaker 1: were rudimentary people. So who made these is a big
Speaker 1: question and when? How is it how? Of course it
Speaker 1: is an audious question, but who and when? We haven't
Speaker 1: Literally no, I don't think anyone knows.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the latest uh genre of thought on ancient cultures
Speaker 4: has the idea of reuse of temples, reuse of buildings,
Speaker 4: reuse of artifacts. In fact, I had we've had Kara Cooning,
Speaker 4: doctor Cooney from UCLA come on a few times, who
Speaker 4: has had written a whole book called Reusing for the Dead,
Speaker 4: whereas where they were using their tomb goods and the
Speaker 4: artifacts and items for the dead over and over and
Speaker 4: over again over hundreds of years, which was a shock.
Speaker 4: But we now are thinking that these temples like Karnak
Speaker 4: looks Are and then Dera were used and perhaps were
Speaker 4: pre Deluvian and so if that's the case, that's the
Speaker 4: evidence of the of an earlier race of people who
Speaker 4: could be behind these these stone stoneware. But there's no
Speaker 4: way to know because there's no writing. But I think
Speaker 4: the only thing you can really track is the sophistication
Speaker 4: of these temples. And these megalithic temples are very very
Speaker 4: difficult to put together, and if they are being used
Speaker 4: continually over thousands of years, maybe they do have a
Speaker 4: connection to these stoneware items that you are presenting.
Speaker 1: We can't prove that what you said is na true, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can't prove. We can't prove that it was not
Speaker 1: made by an earlier civilization because there's no evidence that
Speaker 1: anyone made it that we have been told yea productively,
Speaker 1: I see, yeah, I see strong overlaps in the geometry
Speaker 1: and symmetry, the medium, the types of stone that was
Speaker 1: used in these objects and in larger buildings like the pyramids,
Speaker 1: like there's there's I suspect it was the same group
Speaker 1: of people, And I don't think that the Dynastic Egyptians
Speaker 1: had the technology or the tools of the know how
Speaker 1: to build either one of those personally, So I do
Speaker 1: think it was someone else. But I don't. We don't.
Speaker 1: There's no evidence to say it. So it's older than
Speaker 1: it's pretty lit be it's total than years old. There's
Speaker 1: no evidence for that, but there's no evidence. I don't
Speaker 1: think there's any evidence that suggests Nakata or curly dynastic
Speaker 1: Egyptions made these either. Yeah.
Speaker 4: We're going to take a short commercial break to allow
Speaker 4: our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly
Speaker 4: with my guest today, Adam Young, discussing out of place
Speaker 4: artifacts from ancient Egypt. Will be right back.
Speaker 3: I never had much for winter eyes and snow leaves
Speaker 3: me totally cold, but something's up each eve in December.
Speaker 3: I love it like a mine loves gold. It's never
Speaker 3: about the presence of the turkey or the Christmas tree.
Speaker 3: It's all about the glow in my baby's eyes.
Speaker 4: My guest today is Adam Young. He is a research
Speaker 4: investigator who has a collection of very very early pre
Speaker 4: dynastic bulls, plates and vases that he has analyzed over
Speaker 4: the years and discovered some quite unique aspects to these
Speaker 4: ancient stoneware. Let's talk a little bit about this new
Speaker 4: analysis you've taken. Simply conceiving of a sophisticated society into
Speaker 4: the lab and are doing some very very inhabitantent need
Speaker 4: you to do some very very sophisticated analysis. Talk a
Speaker 4: little bit about what you have been able to find
Speaker 4: with the use of present day technology.
Speaker 1: So here's an image of us at the Petrie Museum.
Speaker 1: This is Kyleie Poker. He's another member of the Artifact Foundation.
Speaker 1: He has his own independent podcast as well. It's called
Speaker 1: the Ancient Technology Podcast. He's on YouTube. So he's a
Speaker 1: member of the Artifact Foundation with me, and we've gone
Speaker 1: into a number of museums in the last couple of years.
Speaker 1: This is the Petrie Museum in London. I was in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four and so we're using a laser scanner.
Speaker 1: This just accumulates data points around that object and puts
Speaker 1: it into a point cloud data set which is like
Speaker 1: a Cartesian xyz coordinate system that you can then bring
Speaker 1: with you portable right, so you can now do the
Speaker 1: analysis anywhere you want. Oh wow, and so you know
Speaker 1: this is kind of what looks like on the screen
Speaker 1: where we're just captains.
Speaker 4: How did you get permission to pull U don't wear
Speaker 4: from Peatries Museum?
Speaker 1: Jeez? They were the they're the most friendly really apparently
Speaker 1: establish a relationship with them a while ago, and we've
Speaker 1: we've also been to the Term Museum in Italy, the
Speaker 1: Brooklyn Museum here in York, and then the MFA in Boston.
Speaker 1: The MFA actually took the longest dight. It took me
Speaker 1: a couple of years to ingratiate ourselves with them. But
Speaker 1: we were not seeking to challenge the narrative or to
Speaker 1: challenge anything, you know, We're looking to analyze first and foremost.
Speaker 1: There's a preservation aspect here. But if we get something
Speaker 1: like this digitized, it's uh, it can then be shared
Speaker 1: and stored by the museum.
Speaker 4: Oh right, so you share your your your researching, your analysis.
Speaker 1: Certainly the scans, you know, the research and analysis. I
Speaker 1: think traditional institutions are probably less interested in that. They're
Speaker 1: it's curious to them, but I don't think they're they're
Speaker 1: thinking of the implications yet just yet.
Speaker 4: Are they having any is does anyone else scanned their Uh,
Speaker 4: there's stoneware same manner.
Speaker 3: That you are.
Speaker 1: Since us, others have been there and used other equipment.
Speaker 1: But in all the places we've been, we were the first.
Speaker 1: We were the first to even ask them wow. Generally,
Speaker 1: or we were the first that they allowed, they generally
Speaker 1: don't allow this level of that's fantastic, but it's not.
Speaker 1: It's non destructive, right, we're not touching the objects aside
Speaker 1: from placing them on a pedestal or a rotating table
Speaker 1: like an inspection table, not touching them. So we're not
Speaker 1: taking prints. We're not using like wax or rubber or
Speaker 1: anything else, no chemicals, it's just light. Effectively, it's laser light.
Speaker 1: These are or photo photographmetry, capturing photographs and stitching them together.
Speaker 1: There are there machines like like CMM machines. We don't
Speaker 1: have anything that's portable that would be more accurate that
Speaker 1: does involve touching, So it's really a question of what
Speaker 1: are the policies. Petrie considered this as teaching material, so
Speaker 1: this was like probably the bottom five percent of the
Speaker 1: object he brought back and he eventually donated and sold
Speaker 1: these to this museum here at this college in London,
Speaker 1: which maintains it, and they allow researchers here. While we
Speaker 1: were here, there was another table next to us with
Speaker 1: someone doing something else, not the same thing, but they
Speaker 1: were also doing research.
Speaker 4: How extensive is his collection Adam. Does he have like
Speaker 4: a whole room of vases and plates and bowls and
Speaker 4: things or is it limited?
Speaker 1: There's eighty or ninety thousand objects in this museum, I
Speaker 1: would say, you know, there's less than thirty or forty
Speaker 1: of these types of hard rock vessels that we were
Speaker 1: interested in. He also has fragments and shards. But again,
Speaker 1: most of his the best stuff that he found generally
Speaker 1: might say the best, like the most interesting from a
Speaker 1: variety of perspectives, was given or sold given to his
Speaker 1: benefactors and the people that he worked with in concert
Speaker 1: with his family retained a lot, and then other stuff
Speaker 1: was sold off. So you know what we found here
Speaker 1: is let me hope you can see this file. We're
Speaker 1: able to see this, Yeah, So this is just a
Speaker 1: comparison of the different objects we saw and we and
Speaker 1: we analyzed, and so across the bottom is the circularity
Speaker 1: median circularity, which is the deviance from a perfect circle.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: If we take a scan image of an object, we
Speaker 1: then cut it into vertical slices, maybe thousands of slices,
Speaker 1: and then each slice we overlay a circle on and
Speaker 1: we measure the distance from each point to a circle.
Speaker 1: So if it was perfect, there'd be no deviation. Every
Speaker 1: point would be on that circle. We just we just
Speaker 1: layer it on right, photoshopped on. Effectively, if the less
Speaker 1: perfect it is, the more either damage, wear and tear,
Speaker 1: or just the less round it is, the more deviation,
Speaker 1: the more of these points are going to vary from
Speaker 1: true circular at your perfection. And so that this is
Speaker 1: the object I was showing me. Really the inside it
Speaker 1: was more on the all way and the left. Did
Speaker 1: you see four one oh five three where the inside
Speaker 1: was more precise in the exterior and then and then
Speaker 1: it kind of ranges. So this is These are not
Speaker 1: the best results we've seen. We've seen other objects, particularly
Speaker 1: in private collections, that are more precise than this, far
Speaker 1: more precise in some cases. But even the ones here
Speaker 1: that that seem to be less precise are still are
Speaker 1: still very interesting and are probably I believe, not not
Speaker 1: possible to do strictly by head. You would need some
Speaker 1: sort of machining apparatus.
Speaker 4: So they're considered machine. They're considered machine basically by me.
Speaker 1: I would consider these machined by archaeologists. No, they're not.
Speaker 1: Archaeologists have a mainstream set of instructions that involve I'll
Speaker 1: go through it real quick. So you get like a
Speaker 1: stone boulder. You know, if you find the target stone,
Speaker 1: you carve it into like some sort of a round
Speaker 1: spherical object using dolorate pounders, which is about a six
Speaker 1: on the most go. So it's quite hard. It's almost
Speaker 1: it's not quite as hard as granted, and copper chisels.
Speaker 1: Copper has to make its way in there somewhere. You
Speaker 1: pierce the top of it using a tube drill also
Speaker 1: made of copper. Now and it might have it's going
Speaker 1: to have something some sort of removal material that could
Speaker 1: potentially be like coroundulum or quartz which is all over Egypt,
Speaker 1: to hollow that out. You then fix it somewhere. So
Speaker 1: the traditional story goes, you fix this into a hole
Speaker 1: or at a work table. You then use flint and
Speaker 1: you attach the flint to a fork stick and you
Speaker 1: turn it into basically like a forked drill that you
Speaker 1: then rotate around by hand. So everything, everything in the
Speaker 1: traditional story is is you know, we're revolves around hand tools.
Speaker 1: So here's another.
Speaker 4: So I don't understand, even in the face of advanced
Speaker 4: engineering and machining, they still go by this rudimentary handcut
Speaker 4: stone ball or stone vase.
Speaker 1: And here's why. These are pictures from tombs of the
Speaker 1: nobles on the rad hand side, which isn't hieroglyphs. By
Speaker 1: the way, this is painted on basically with effectively plaster walls.
Speaker 1: So this was New Kingdom and they're talking about making
Speaker 1: you can see on the lower right rectangle here they're
Speaker 1: talking about making a big jar. So this is a
Speaker 1: description of life back in their day. They're also making
Speaker 1: wooden furnisure and other things. And archaeological archaeologists have extrapolated
Speaker 1: this to explain how everything was made based on a
Speaker 1: couple of accounts, third party accounts, potentially many thousands of
Speaker 1: years later. And I think these stories are probably meant
Speaker 1: to relate to both pottery and limestone or calcite. So yeah,
Speaker 1: so limestone vessels, calcite alabaster, those are very soft and
Speaker 1: you can cut these things with bronze copper. You don't
Speaker 1: even really need an abrasive. The Romans were doing that
Speaker 1: too without an abrasive. And this whole concept of beforek drill.
Speaker 1: I believe this was used in the Egyptian alabaster industry.
Speaker 1: The problem is it's not capable of precision at all,
Speaker 1: and when we analyze these vessels, they're off by orders
Speaker 1: of magnitude one to two orders of magnitude, which is
Speaker 1: between ten and one hundred times less precise. And that's
Speaker 1: where the traditional narrative comes from.
Speaker 4: I think there's a book in there somewhere, Adam, there's
Speaker 4: a book with some the alternative view with engineering analysis
Speaker 4: and some of the equipment and the analytical tools that
Speaker 4: you've used. To wake people up, because this is crazy.
Speaker 4: To keep thinking that they're using hand tools to create
Speaker 4: these bowls, vases and plates. It's just crazy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I want to share something with you also,
Speaker 1: This is we haven't really been talking about yet because
Speaker 1: we haven finished our analysis. We just pull it up.
Speaker 1: So about to share my screen here. This is a vessel.
Speaker 1: This is a vessel from from the term Museum in Italy.
Speaker 1: And so the term Museum is like the second largest
Speaker 1: collection of Egyptian objects outside of the Cairo Museum in
Speaker 1: the world. It was it was really like the first
Speaker 1: Egyptian museum outside of Cairo.
Speaker 4: And now when did the Italians start collecting such volume.
Speaker 1: It was late eighteen hundreds. It was it was private
Speaker 1: collection then that that was then gifted or sold to
Speaker 1: the museum.
Speaker 4: Oh so that was during the Nomad period of Egypt,
Speaker 4: when there's nobody out there and they could just kind
Speaker 4: of come in and oh yeah.
Speaker 1: The Italians were The Italians were prolific in archaeology, as
Speaker 1: well as the French, Austrians, Germans, and then of course
Speaker 1: the BRITSKAY. So this is a you know, I don't
Speaker 1: remember the actual dating, but most of these are either
Speaker 1: Early Dynastic Egypt or before pre Dynastic, including Kata. So
Speaker 1: when we were analyzing this, we at first we thought, well,
Speaker 1: you know, I love it when there are these these
Speaker 1: feldspar inclusions to either court. When you see these big things.
Speaker 1: These crystals are either quarts or felsparget typically, and they're
Speaker 1: usually a lot harder than the grand mass than the
Speaker 1: ground mass, which is that the blackish material. Usually the
Speaker 1: crystals are harder. Quartz is sort of like a seven
Speaker 1: on the most scale. I think feldspar is close. So
Speaker 1: it would have been really hard to cut and make this. However,
Speaker 1: it can be done you using techniques that have low friction,
Speaker 1: like grinding. So I think we have an idea that
Speaker 1: sure this was possible. Obviously somebody made it using something,
Speaker 1: but when we looked at it, we realized it's not
Speaker 1: perfectly round. We were looking at in the top down
Speaker 1: and it just didn't seem to be round. But what
Speaker 1: it did look like was an oval. Said, okay, this
Speaker 1: looks like an oval, and so how do we put
Speaker 1: this together? Recently on the right, so this is a silhouette.
Speaker 1: So this is the object. The exterior walls are in
Speaker 1: red and blue, and the reason it's suit forerent colors
Speaker 1: is because we rotated the object night degrees, So the
Speaker 1: red is a ninety degree rotated view of the blue,
Speaker 1: and you can see that it is a mobile. There's
Speaker 1: a better way of showing this. Well, we need to
Speaker 1: show three dimensionally. This is an oval, so it's ellipsoid.
Speaker 1: There's effectively there's there's two axes in here. So if
Speaker 1: you think these were made on a lathe, I have
Speaker 1: never seen a lave that has two axes. The layer
Speaker 1: would be rotating in an old fashion at some point, right,
Speaker 1: or the grinding apparatus, whatever you're using to cut the
Speaker 1: stone would have to be rotating around it in an
Speaker 1: oval fashion. Yeah, I don't know. It is the word perfect.
Speaker 1: It's not a perfect not a tough thing is perfect.
Speaker 1: There's no perfect circles, there's no perfect stoneware, there's no
Speaker 1: perfect ovals. But this is pretty oval.
Speaker 4: I think the other thing that makes this remarkable vase
Speaker 4: is this these unusual grip or hand holding protrusions at
Speaker 4: the top. It's like, wow, that is so cool. It's
Speaker 4: almost modern thought, you know it's not. I mean, wow,
Speaker 4: it's pretty beautiful.
Speaker 1: This was like eighteen interest. This was huge too. It
Speaker 1: was large.
Speaker 4: No, it's big, huh.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. The blood handles have always been a point
Speaker 1: of interest. They're they're potentially functional, like to pick something
Speaker 1: up easier. Yes, but yeah, only some of these have them,
Speaker 1: you know, I might relative minority of objects have walg candles.
Speaker 4: I mean, this goes beyond a lathe spinning. This is
Speaker 4: something entirely unique. Is there any way through microscope or
Speaker 4: or fine imaging that you can see cut lines, any
Speaker 4: kind of chipping away or carving on that on that vase,
Speaker 4: this one.
Speaker 1: In particular, Yeah, I don't recall what we were looking at.
Speaker 1: There is, though, there's and there's evidence of hand tooling
Speaker 1: on a lot of these, so in some of them. Okay,
Speaker 1: here's an image of the og vessel. This is a
Speaker 1: and I'll share it in a microphone camera. I'm click too.
Speaker 1: So this is the og base. It's it's red granite,
Speaker 1: potentially a sway and granite. You can see it's it's
Speaker 1: very nice. It's not perfect, nothing's perfect, but this is
Speaker 1: one of the highest precision objects we've we've ever measured.
Speaker 1: Now there's enough close picture of it. Right here we go.
Speaker 1: So this is a lug handle. Now you can see
Speaker 1: besides there seems to be some some wear or tear
Speaker 1: tooling or something. Yeah, there's there's evidence that something else
Speaker 1: was touching this. So you do see this in a
Speaker 1: lot of these where the body is perfect and there's
Speaker 1: something there's a top or a lip or a lug handle,
Speaker 1: and there seems to be evidence that maybe somebody went
Speaker 1: by with a some sort of hand tool would finish
Speaker 1: it off or was removing was removing a feature that
Speaker 1: wasn't meant to be there.
Speaker 4: Mm hm. When you say lug handle, it's got a
Speaker 4: hole in it. Was there something attached to that so
Speaker 4: it was easier to lift, or holes or something.
Speaker 1: The lug handles in some cases, in many cases were
Speaker 1: drilled out, so you'll see that drilled out. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: so you see this drill, this is a drill.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a beautiful I mean, that's a perfect hole
Speaker 4: that's been cut.
Speaker 1: That's almost like it looks like it from one side,
Speaker 1: but if you look at the other side, they don't align.
Speaker 1: They're almost they're almost always destroying. They're not parallel or
Speaker 1: symmetrical to each other. Sometimes it looks like they came
Speaker 1: in from two different sides and didn't quite meet. Really. Yes,
Speaker 1: so yeah, I suspect that these holes were made much
Speaker 1: later by a different civilization. Same thing here. I think
Speaker 1: the holes were all pretty much all added later. Maybe
Speaker 1: not all the time, but from what I've seen, it
Speaker 1: looks at the case amazing because we've seen we've seen
Speaker 1: in a number with with no holes as well.
Speaker 4: So with the analysis that you and your team has
Speaker 4: have have been using, what are some of the takeaways.
Speaker 1: That you have formulated, you know, I would say, yeah,
Speaker 1: we don't know how these were made. We suspect that
Speaker 1: there's there's various methods and some of them could be
Speaker 1: could be very simple. They could be they could they
Speaker 1: could appear to be complex or modern, but maybe aren't.
Speaker 1: Here's a here's a video of what's called centerless grinding.
Speaker 1: So you're basically setting up two rotating wheels and you
Speaker 1: have the piece in the middle, and this this can
Speaker 1: make a cylinder that's remarkably precise. A cylinder though right
Speaker 1: it's it's going to be used for a very specific purpose.
Speaker 1: So that's based on some complex mathematics as you see here,
Speaker 1: But you could also iterate this. You could figure this
Speaker 1: out by trial and error. It doesn't mean that you
Speaker 1: need to have advanced trigonometric capabilities to build a centerless
Speaker 1: grinding tool. It means that you just experiment by moving
Speaker 1: things in different configurations until you get something that works,
Speaker 1: and given enough time, you can Here's another sort of
Speaker 1: bad drawing of minds showing how potentially the bottom of
Speaker 1: these vessels may have had kind of like a stalk
Speaker 1: or a piece left off it. So this bottom spindle
Speaker 1: and this effects of this functions like a spindle to
Speaker 1: hold the workpiece, and that could have been rotated and
Speaker 1: then at the end, once you're done grinding or whatever else,
Speaker 1: you snap that bottom piece off and then just finish
Speaker 1: off the base. So if the bases on a lot
Speaker 1: of these don't seem very precise, and that could explain that,
Speaker 1: and then you see you would effectively remove that and
Speaker 1: end up with finished product. Ah okay, I think you know.
Speaker 1: It begs a question like and this is what gets
Speaker 1: archaeologists and traditional historians anxiety. Gives them anxiety to talk
Speaker 1: about what's you know, what is what's a machine? These are?
Speaker 1: These are machines from the eighteen hundreds. These are all
Speaker 1: foot and hand powered machines. Because a sewing, sewing machine,
Speaker 1: a pottery wheel, I laid in, a saw, the table
Speaker 1: saw all powered by humans. But these machines, I think, sure,
Speaker 1: So when we're talking about machines, I think these were machined.
Speaker 1: I think there were There were machines used in the
Speaker 1: construction or the manufacturing process of a lot of these,
Speaker 1: But they could have been powered by humans or camels, right,
Speaker 1: And that means that there's still a human involved. And
Speaker 1: we do see a lot of imperfections, we see we
Speaker 1: see various levels of quality and sophistication. But this, this
Speaker 1: story is not told. This is really left out of
Speaker 1: the paradigm. Nobody suggests that they have these types of
Speaker 1: things back then. I'm suggesting that something at least the
Speaker 1: sophisticated must have been used at least we do not think,
Speaker 1: and I don't either, that the Dynastic Egyptians have these
Speaker 1: I don't think I certainly don't think Nakata or Badarian
Speaker 1: on those civilizations pre dynastic had any of these things,
Speaker 1: which leaves the question than who did and when? You know?
Speaker 1: And where are the tools is another big question. So
Speaker 1: in all of Egyptian history, we found only one hundred
Speaker 1: to two hundred copper tools total, saws and drills, we
Speaker 1: found ten to twenty. That's it, Max, And these people
Speaker 1: were using copper for at least two thousand years and
Speaker 1: we found one or two hundred. So where are the tools?
Speaker 1: If this was, like you said, prediliving ten thousand years ago,
Speaker 1: well long gone, repurposed, stolen, rotten, disintegrated, oxidized, whatever. We
Speaker 1: don't necessar sssarily need to find tools to show that
Speaker 1: the evidence of tool use is in. It is in
Speaker 1: the perfection, it's in the witness marks, it's in the symmetry.
Speaker 4: Yes, we're going to take a short commercial break to
Speaker 4: allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return
Speaker 4: shortly with my guest today, research investigator Adam Young, coming
Speaker 4: to us from the East coast of the United States.
Speaker 4: We will be right back every Christmas.
Speaker 2: Baby rain Dass coming out of place across his back
Speaker 2: and the pre.
Speaker 4: My guest today is Adam Young. He has made a
Speaker 4: lifelong study of unusual stoneware from Egypt, found in grave
Speaker 4: sites and at Sakara. These are stoneware bowls, vases, and
Speaker 4: plates that are remarkably precise and come from a period
Speaker 4: of great technological advancement. If you were to pick an
Speaker 4: item that is from what you might think as the
Speaker 4: time period, or perhaps an item that is similar to
Speaker 4: a oz to the stone where what would you choose
Speaker 4: in Egypt? Would you choose a temple that is very
Speaker 4: highly constructed? Would you? I mean the pyramids by themselves
Speaker 4: are enigmatic because there's huge and each stone is minimum
Speaker 4: two point five tons. Egyptologists seem to think that dynastics
Speaker 4: built it. There's no way in hell that they touched it,
Speaker 4: that they dealt with it.
Speaker 1: It came with him.
Speaker 4: But with your net, with your work, what would you
Speaker 4: say is something that would be from a similar time
Speaker 4: period or a similar technology that you can identify?
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know if I, if I, if
Speaker 1: I necessarily would would take one side or the other
Speaker 1: I know the dynastic Egyptians were very capable. I think
Speaker 1: they were rehabbing a lot of these sites. They had
Speaker 1: the minister, like one of the pharaoh's brothers. Forget to
Speaker 1: forget the one. I'm terrible. My Egyptian is not good.
Speaker 1: But the pharaoh had a brother who he appointed a
Speaker 1: ministry of reconstruction rehabilitation. His job was to go around
Speaker 1: and rehab ancient sites. Why would he need a person
Speaker 1: like that if they were making these things, they they
Speaker 1: stumbled upon a lot of these and they tried to
Speaker 1: make them better. Yeah, I don't know why. Is that
Speaker 1: because they were destroyed in a cataclysm, by water, by flooding,
Speaker 1: by by other humans. I don't know. But the Egyptians
Speaker 1: were rehabbing these sites actively. You can see it. That's
Speaker 1: not it's not controversial, right that The controversy as well,
Speaker 1: did they actually build them? Right? They built some things.
Speaker 1: They built beautiful temples. They typically use much smaller stones.
Speaker 1: They used effectively bricks. Like if you look at the
Speaker 1: Washington Monument, that's not an obelisk, that's not a solid
Speaker 1: piece of granite that Those are bricks. Those are blocks,
Speaker 1: construction blocks, right, You can't do that today. But they
Speaker 1: are obelisks. Whoever made the real obelisks? Those are solid
Speaker 1: pieces of stone that are one hundred plus feet tall.
Speaker 1: Sometimes that's incredible, right. The pyramids have they and they
Speaker 1: have you know, less impressive limestone blocks, but they also
Speaker 1: have giant granite that's that's made to unbelievable levels of
Speaker 1: flatness and precision. We were I'll show you one that's
Speaker 1: really that's really incredible. So there's a there's region of
Speaker 1: Egypt called the Fayum. It's a it's south of Cairo,
Speaker 1: south of Giza, so it's not it's not too far away. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm going through my library here and here it is.
Speaker 1: So there's mud break pyramids in this region. There's of
Speaker 1: these four of them are that are surviving. I don't
Speaker 1: know how many, oh, mud brick pyramids. Yeah, like, yes, exactly.
Speaker 1: So this is in the fire region. It's called a
Speaker 1: Lahoune pyramid, so a lah or send it. It's attributed
Speaker 1: to uh send Us read the second, which is a pharaoh.
Speaker 4: I think they can look at all those mud bricks.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 1: So this is a special type of mud. It still
Speaker 1: survives even though It doesn't rain very much here, but
Speaker 1: it used to, and you still see a lot of this.
Speaker 1: It gets it gets very windy there and occasionally when
Speaker 1: it when it does rain, you would expect probably more
Speaker 1: destruction than there has been. So it's a remarkable it's
Speaker 1: a remarkable chemical composition. They're large, they're not small red
Speaker 1: bricks like we think of. They're much bigger. But look
Speaker 1: at what's underneath here. Megalithic limestone blocks seem to form
Speaker 1: the infrastructure, and I think that's the case with a
Speaker 1: lot of these, So they're not just simple mud bricks
Speaker 1: stacked up. There's a grand plan here. If they could
Speaker 1: build with megolithic limestone, we see that all of the place,
Speaker 1: why would they use mud bricks. Well, it turns out
Speaker 1: that there was also casing stones, probably limestone in some
Speaker 1: cases basalt or granite on top of this p tree
Speaker 1: described some casing stones were still in place, and some
Speaker 1: of these pyramids at the bottom you could still see
Speaker 1: where the original casing stones were. So perhaps the mud
Speaker 1: brick was a design element, right, a feature like an
Speaker 1: insulating way, or it was purposeful for some reason. These
Speaker 1: were lazy people. They were like the most accomplished race
Speaker 1: of humans probably, ever, it seems like a crucial component.
Speaker 1: So what's really interesting to me about these pyramids is
Speaker 1: that they're not, at least from what I know, I
Speaker 1: don't know any interior chambers, the chambers, want to call
Speaker 1: them burial chambers whatever. The interesting parts are like below grate,
Speaker 1: they're below the base. They're underground, not really connected to
Speaker 1: the pyramid itself. And p Tree drew this. So this
Speaker 1: is I think at eighteen ninety one, and this is
Speaker 1: where he says, so this is the pyramid. You can
Speaker 1: see the original casing stones which were here covering the
Speaker 1: mud brick, and then this is the base level. So
Speaker 1: you go a few hundred feet away down and then
Speaker 1: back sort of in towards the pyramid. And so all
Speaker 1: these underground shafts and chambers are entirely below grade. They're
Speaker 1: like not connected to the pyramid.
Speaker 4: So is he suggesting that the mud bricks were initially
Speaker 4: designed as a feature of this pyramid.
Speaker 1: I don't know what he said about that, but they
Speaker 1: were certainly designed. The pyramid was built using a megalithic
Speaker 1: limestone core infrastructure. I don't but I don't know what
Speaker 1: that looks like. And then mud brick around it, and
Speaker 1: in some cases in Juaa and other cases there's several
Speaker 1: layers like it might go like rock, mud, brick, rock,
Speaker 1: et cetera. And then in this case there was that
Speaker 1: there were smooth casing stones which I think were limestone. Weird.
Speaker 1: So I think in some of these bodies were found
Speaker 1: of it. Actually, Uh again, all that to me, all
Speaker 1: that says is that dynastic Egyptians found these and put
Speaker 1: dead people inside them. I don't how many evidence to
Speaker 1: suggest they made them. Yeah. So in this chamber here,
Speaker 1: it's got it's a it's a room made of granite. Okay,
Speaker 1: it looks like this this room is granite. Petrie said
Speaker 1: that the walls here and I touched the walls, they
Speaker 1: feel rough.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: The walls were ground to like extreme levels of flatness,
Speaker 1: but not polished. However, this big bathtub shaped box in
Speaker 1: the middle was this was this was cut beautifully and
Speaker 1: then polished where you know, if it was so red
Speaker 1: sea reflection in it.
Speaker 4: So this is kind of like SERAPM site. Is it
Speaker 4: SERAPM size box or is it smaller?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 1: No, much smaller than this. Well, yeah, the dimensions are
Speaker 1: less than half most of the Serapium boxes. We don't
Speaker 1: know what the top is. The top has never found.
Speaker 4: But there's no there's no hieroglyphics on any of this.
Speaker 1: Not on these, on some of them. There's boxes underneath
Speaker 1: the black pyramid that do have some inscriptions on them,
Speaker 1: but they're generally crude. Like if you go back to
Speaker 1: the Serrapeium, the inscriptions on the side are really rough chiseled.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like later period. They're terrible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they don't look impressive. But this one, this
Speaker 1: is one of my This was Petrie's favorite object. So
Speaker 1: you can see it's off. It's off, it's off cut
Speaker 1: right at the bottom. This side on the left is
Speaker 1: thirty thirty two inches or so I think, and then
Speaker 1: on the other side is thirty six so it's about
Speaker 1: it's about four inch differential and then cut like that diagonally,
Speaker 1: and you can see it if you look at it
Speaker 1: against the back wall too. Right, So this is off
Speaker 1: by four inches left or right? Why where's the top?
Speaker 1: These people were masters of perfection. Look at the rest
Speaker 1: of the of the box.
Speaker 4: I'm just gonna ask you, is it because the floor
Speaker 4: is uneven No, so the floor is perfectly square and level.
Speaker 1: From what I from what I can see that the
Speaker 1: floor is perfectly square and level. Petrie also into so
Speaker 1: he footnoted this really interesting factor in his paper. He said,
Speaker 1: the entrance shaft that led into here, the way we
Speaker 1: got into this room was narrower than the width of
Speaker 1: the box. Mmm, so how did it get here? Effectively?
Speaker 1: What that means is that the room was built around
Speaker 1: the box.
Speaker 4: Oh wow, So maybe the box contains some technology or something.
Speaker 1: I don't know. So that the lipid cheer is incredible.
Speaker 1: It's it's like four thousands of an inch deviation from
Speaker 1: a perfect straight line. That's that's well beyond uh what's
Speaker 1: required in like modern countertop manufacturing. This is much flatter
Speaker 1: than a countertop.
Speaker 4: Does Does Petrie attribute this to old Kingdom?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: This is early Donastic Okay, so that's that I mean
Speaker 4: right there.
Speaker 1: He didn't he wasn't big into dating. I think he
Speaker 1: recognized it was a it was tricky, okay. He originally
Speaker 1: he thought all this stuff was made by a precursor civilization,
Speaker 1: and then his peers kind of convinced him to get
Speaker 1: with the program and he stopped sort of saying that.
Speaker 4: Really did he actually write about that there was a precursor, uh,
Speaker 4: pre civilization.
Speaker 1: I don't remember that he called Yeah, he called these
Speaker 1: he called them he thought there were aliens, uh from
Speaker 1: they were invaders from Libya and he found in Egypt
Speaker 1: and that was his initial Okay, so he calls this box.
Speaker 1: I love this quote. This is one of the greatest
Speaker 1: triumphs of accurate work in such a material that has
Speaker 1: ever been done.
Speaker 4: Hmmm. That's saying a lot from him if he's impressed
Speaker 4: like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he came back here a few times before he died.
Speaker 4: How deep is that uh tomb or that that arcovacus? Underground?
Speaker 4: Is it under the surface or it's just in the
Speaker 4: guts of the pyramid.
Speaker 1: It's not in the pyramid, right, So it's below grade,
Speaker 1: it's below the surface of the earth. It's below the
Speaker 1: base of the pyramids. It's like one hundred feet. I
Speaker 1: think you go down about about eighty or ninety feet
Speaker 1: that walk up a little bit, so it's it's not
Speaker 1: very far. It's a dozen or twenty meters, but it's
Speaker 1: not it's not connected to the pyramid. You don't go
Speaker 1: inside the pyramid. It's underground. So was the pyramid built
Speaker 1: on top of this thing? Or was this thing built later?
Speaker 1: We don't know. This is a to put that in context,
Speaker 1: this is that box again. So the flatness deviation is
Speaker 1: across the one point two seven meters that's the side
Speaker 1: of the narrower side, So it's four thousands of an inch.
Speaker 1: To put in perspective, a modern granite countertop is basically
Speaker 1: never made ladder across the similar span than sixty thousands
Speaker 1: or or six hundreds. So this is over in order
Speaker 1: of magnitude. It's it's more than ten times more precise
Speaker 1: than a grand of countertops made today. With diamond tips,
Speaker 1: circular saws and fine polishing. Now, this is possible, and
Speaker 1: you actually can achieve very high levels of flatness or
Speaker 1: lempage with hand polishing techniques. That's that's well known. There's
Speaker 1: there's ways of getting it down. This this flat. However,
Speaker 1: how do you know? How would you know it's this flat?
Speaker 1: You can't see this, this level of deviations, You can't
Speaker 1: touch this or see this. You would have no idea
Speaker 1: if you're achieving this, and they're maintaining this across the
Speaker 1: whole way. So they have to have some way of measuring,
Speaker 1: some way of of analyzing it, some metrology effectively.
Speaker 4: Is there any kind of gassing or discharge on the
Speaker 4: walls of that chamber that that sarcophagus is laying in.
Speaker 4: I mean, that's one of the things that Christine's always
Speaker 4: harped on, is that there is gassing of hydrogen extracts
Speaker 4: and things like that on the walls. Is there anything
Speaker 4: like that?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I did not really, I wasn't really
Speaker 1: looking at that when we were here or so.
Speaker 4: You actually got that's actually you you taking photograph.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were there. We were there, so all the
Speaker 1: pews of the Artifact Foundation, so where Kyle Allen Ben
Speaker 1: ben Kirkuk was here on and me and Caroly Poka
Speaker 1: we're all here back at two thousand and twenty four.
Speaker 4: Wow, very impressive. It's almost like it's a container for something,
Speaker 4: like it's housing. It's a housing, it houses something, you
Speaker 4: know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does I know what you mean? What you know,
Speaker 1: why do you need to top that flat? Well maybe
Speaker 1: if you wanted to seal it, right, if you wanted
Speaker 1: the container sealed potentially, but they never found a top.
Speaker 1: The serapean boxes are also very similar. The tops are
Speaker 1: remarkably flat, and you would you would get a pretty
Speaker 1: tight you would get almost an erritight. So I don't
Speaker 1: know if it would be perfect, but who knows it
Speaker 1: could have been. It could have been. You know, people
Speaker 1: have theorized that there was chemicals in there, there were
Speaker 1: growing crystals. I've heard and many of these things have
Speaker 1: extraordinary residence properties. And they're not all They don't all
Speaker 1: look like perfectly symmetrical, like rectangular boxes. Not all the time.
Speaker 1: You'll see some edges where there's a really wide radius
Speaker 1: in the uh in the corner, and other times it's
Speaker 1: very tight and maintained across a few meters, So it's
Speaker 1: it's inexplicable. You don't always see extreme levels of precision,
Speaker 1: not always, but sometimes you do, and you can, and
Speaker 1: so it's like, well, why did they sometimes employ extreme
Speaker 1: levels of manufacturing acumen and other times not?
Speaker 4: Do you think that the technology that cut shaped and
Speaker 4: smooth these surfaces is beyond us right now or in
Speaker 4: your analysis, do you think that it's something that's close
Speaker 4: to what we can achieve, perhaps lasers or some kind
Speaker 4: of arc welding or torturing. I don't know how they
Speaker 4: call it. That's that exists, but it's used in a
Speaker 4: difference or sophisticated way.
Speaker 1: Well, we don't really. We don't really work in stone
Speaker 1: like this today. The exception would be in inspection plates
Speaker 1: that are that are this flat and even more flat.
Speaker 1: They're using metrology labs and they're made of granite because
Speaker 1: granted it's less, it's more tolerant to heat and changes
Speaker 1: in teat, humidity and things like that. I think we
Speaker 1: do have the capability of making this stuff. We probably can.
Speaker 1: The question is how so would we use carbide kill tips,
Speaker 1: would we use brinding techniques? I don't know, and no one.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen anyone replicate these today using modern technology,
Speaker 1: partially because it's expensive. You would break through tools, you'd
Speaker 1: be wearing, tearing your equipment. It's cost prohibitive, right, So
Speaker 1: we haven't seen anyone do it. There's no evidence that
Speaker 1: hand tools couldn't make those. A few people have tried,
Speaker 1: but the results don't come close to what we've seen
Speaker 1: and analyzed. So you know, there's a big question. Most
Speaker 1: likely there's some culture had advanced dollars that we're unaware of.
Speaker 4: Well, that was my next question to you, is that
Speaker 4: it's beginning to appear that there's an advanced science behind
Speaker 4: this that we either have not evolved to or it's
Speaker 4: under our nose and we're just not paying attention. It's like,
Speaker 4: we don't cut stone in the way that they did.
Speaker 4: But whatever the hell they were using, it's very very Uh,
Speaker 4: it's a powerful tool. It's and it has an elegance
Speaker 4: to it as well. And when we see these stone.
Speaker 1: Ware, it's us Yeah. Really, some of them are very
Speaker 1: quite striking in the proportions, and some of the sides
Speaker 1: will follow like a quadratic equation. Effectively, they're they're you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's advanced spherical geometry. We don't really do that today. Uh,
Speaker 1: with the exception of marble, So we will use marble
Speaker 1: because marble is very smart. Marbles much softer than these
Speaker 1: these stones. These are all igneous uh granite, dirites, Portyry
Speaker 1: type type stones frescia. Yeah, they're very hard. Marble's not.
Speaker 1: And so when an artist wants to make a statue
Speaker 1: of dated or something, they typically always use marble.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen any anything like this at all, in
Speaker 1: granted not not not all. We've seen cylindrical shapes though
Speaker 1: what I've seen the toothbrusholders made out of what looks
Speaker 1: like granted that are very round, but again it's not
Speaker 1: that hard. What's hard is the complex spherical geometry and
Speaker 1: the interior is being hollowed out. I have not seen
Speaker 1: that done at all.
Speaker 4: Not. Yes, yeah, we haven't even talked about statuary. There's
Speaker 4: a statue in the Cairo Museum of Caffrey that's made
Speaker 4: of door, right or something else, and Muhammed is of
Speaker 4: the belief that is one hundred percent manufactured. And as
Speaker 4: I've been looking at it, I actually wrote an article
Speaker 4: on it. It is one of the most beautiful sculptures
Speaker 4: I've ever seen, and I think that Ramsey's the second
Speaker 4: put his cartouge on the base of it in a
Speaker 4: very scratchy, kind of crappy I was here kind of graffiti. Look,
Speaker 4: have you analyzed any of the you know, stone sculptures
Speaker 4: that we have left to us that are identified by
Speaker 4: our Egyptologists as left by known pharaohs.
Speaker 1: No, not yet. I you know, Chris John has been
Speaker 1: a little bit more focused on that over his career.
Speaker 1: You know, he's famously looked at the Ramsey statue a
Speaker 1: couple of times. I think a Karnak, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know how precise those are. And but again, like
Speaker 1: when you're saying machined or I guess when when he
Speaker 1: said manufactured with Mohammedan manufactured, he met machined.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know a person holding a grinding a
Speaker 1: grinder or a circular saw, or somebody using a minor
Speaker 1: saw or somebody using a wage like that's I would
Speaker 1: say that's all machining, But it doesn't mean that there's
Speaker 1: nothing that involved. You could have an artist to using
Speaker 1: a grinder. But I do strongly suspect there's whoever was
Speaker 1: making these things, including probably many or some of the
Speaker 1: statue or the statues, was using rotating power tools of
Speaker 1: some sort of a rotating nature. Because you can see
Speaker 1: circular saw marks and yeah, objects throughout all these museums,
Speaker 1: and you know they're circular because the center point is
Speaker 1: that you know, you can see the you can see
Speaker 1: the radius of whatever. We know it was based on
Speaker 1: the length of the cut. Yeah, so something revolving, something rotating.
Speaker 1: I don't know what the power was, I don't know
Speaker 1: what the tools are made out of, and I don't
Speaker 1: know where they are.
Speaker 4: It's really a challenge when you're dealing with sophisticated technology
Speaker 4: and the science behind it, trying to identify it when
Speaker 4: perhaps we're not even up to speed on it. We
Speaker 4: don't we haven't evolved to that level of of science,
Speaker 4: you know, so we're kind of like walking in the
Speaker 4: dark and admiring these artifacts and going, what the hell
Speaker 4: who did these? It's kind of fun. And then, of
Speaker 4: course the big problem is.
Speaker 1: We have a.
Speaker 4: We have a social science of egyptological inquiry that shuts
Speaker 4: the door on anything that is questionable like this and
Speaker 4: relegates it to the dynastic period, which just does not
Speaker 4: make any sense anymore. So as we close out and
Speaker 4: what's your feeling on uh, continual analytics, analyze, analytical study
Speaker 4: of these artifacts? Do we have to come up to
Speaker 4: speed or is someone going to make a breakthrough? What's
Speaker 4: your what's your gut on this? Uh?
Speaker 1: Well, we we know, we have we have plans, we
Speaker 1: have you know, additional projects that we've been working on
Speaker 1: for years, and eventually it's it's a combination of a
Speaker 1: larger data set, partnerships with more institutions. We have a
Speaker 1: few universities that are interested in starting to take interest now,
Speaker 1: so hopefully that continues and more publications before I think
Speaker 1: potentially people I hope will recognize that you can't make
Speaker 1: this stuff with primitive hand tools. That's number one that
Speaker 1: that bags up. That opens up a Pandora's box of questions, right,
Speaker 1: and for career archaeologists and academics, those questions can be existential, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: well if these were made with machine tools, and we're
Speaker 1: very very confident the dynastic Egyptians didn't have them, and
Speaker 1: you know, erdo that the civilization right before them that
Speaker 1: was primitive must not have either. Then you you did
Speaker 1: was an ancient society that was advanced that's gone, and
Speaker 1: so then you have you know, you have the questions
Speaker 1: of like, you know, the Atlantean type topics. I'm sure
Speaker 1: they had a different name for themselves. But there's yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of possibilities. Why were people so focused
Speaker 1: on Egypt, why they're of all places? There's probably there's
Speaker 1: probably an explanation because you really don't see the same
Speaker 1: stuff in many other parts of the world. South America
Speaker 1: is very interesting, but it's very different levels of construction.
Speaker 1: You don't see as many megalithic sites, We don't find
Speaker 1: objects that are made to such you know, heigh precision
Speaker 1: although I have seen things in South America in Asia
Speaker 1: as well, plates and other objects that seem to be extremely,
Speaker 1: extremely precise. So this, this, this level of technology was known,
Speaker 1: it was, it was, it was in other parts of
Speaker 1: the world, but really not to such a high concentration
Speaker 1: and impressiveness as as you see in Egypt.
Speaker 4: Hmmm, amazing. Hey, I want to thank you for joining us. Uh,
Speaker 4: You've given us some uh some good uh material to
Speaker 4: think about. I am these are definitely out of place
Speaker 4: artifacts and there's no other way to explain them. We're
Speaker 4: not getting much help from the Egyptological community, are we. Uh,
Speaker 4: they're not into this at all, and I.
Speaker 1: Give them, give them, give them some time. The younger
Speaker 1: generation eight is they're coming around a little bit. The
Speaker 1: older crowd maybe not. But we have some pretty good
Speaker 1: relationships with some of them. So it's a question of time.
Speaker 1: I think it's a question of time.
Speaker 4: From Egypt or from American universities.
Speaker 1: Egypt, Europe, North America.
Speaker 4: Oh, excellent, excellent, fantastic. Hey, if we can get a
Speaker 4: few photographs for our Facebook page, it would be great.
Speaker 4: I want to thank you, Adam. I definitely see a
Speaker 4: book in this somewhere buddy. I know you're busy as hell.
Speaker 4: You got kids, and you've got a family and you
Speaker 4: got but you got to spit something out one of
Speaker 4: these days, because, uh, you got a lot of data
Speaker 4: and I think some of them love to publish it,
Speaker 4: so we get the word out. We do.
Speaker 1: We do our best to put I wouldn't say we
Speaker 1: do our best. We have been publicizing data on our
Speaker 1: website and we will continue to do that. Sometimes we're
Speaker 1: just not able to immediately be for various reasons. We
Speaker 1: haven't finished analytics, we haven't vented it, or our partner
Speaker 1: doesn't want to release yet. So you can check out
Speaker 1: our website. It's just Artifactfoundation dot org. You know. Check
Speaker 1: out some of the other members of the foundation. So
Speaker 1: Kyrie Polker Ancient Technology podcast, Chris King, who's a precision
Speaker 1: manufacturing expert. He machines like aerospace levels of tolerances. Ahmed
Speaker 1: Adley is another member. He has a YouTube channel devoted
Speaker 1: to the Arab speaking world to communicate a lot of
Speaker 1: this cocination to them. Of course, Ben van Kirkwick jud
Speaker 1: X and then Kyle and Russ Allen. We're brothers of
Speaker 1: the Serpent podcast. You know, we're all, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of us that are that are interested in this in
Speaker 1: the subjected and hopefully we can continue to push it forward.
Speaker 4: Are you Uh, I guess you're all over YouTube, but
Speaker 4: you guys don't have a channel specific to.
Speaker 1: Your work due now. The foundation is really just it's
Speaker 1: it's a it's a nonprofit just devoted to the exploration
Speaker 1: and okay, you know, evidence based work, but many of
Speaker 1: our members.
Speaker 4: Do very cool, very cool. Hey, I really appreciate your time, Adam,
Speaker 4: thank you, and uh uh, let's hopefully there's going to
Speaker 4: be a breakthrough one of these days where you could say, hey,
Speaker 4: we know what it is. It's a special laser because
Speaker 4: we developed it and now that's what they were using,
Speaker 4: you know, right. Really it's a challenge.
Speaker 1: One day, one day. But thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1: If it's been been a pleasure and it's been too long, yeah,
Speaker 1: thanks man, We'll have you back, all right, cheers. You
Speaker 1: got to look at the photographs on the Facebook page.
Speaker 1: If not and you want to jump onto YouTube, you
Speaker 1: can go to our YouTube channel and see some of
Speaker 1: the analysis that Adam and his team came up with.
Speaker 1: We don't know what the source of cutting is.
Speaker 4: We have no idea. Again, it's very likely a technology
Speaker 4: we are not prepared to understand because the science and
Speaker 4: likely the technology behind the cutting tools is we're not
Speaker 4: privy to. We don't understand what it is. We have
Speaker 4: no idea, we don't have the technology to replicate it,
Speaker 4: and it's not cutting blaze whatsoever. Apparently some of the
Speaker 4: early pieces are cutting blaze, but as Adam points out
Speaker 4: in his talk, the precision cuts make us think that
Speaker 4: the cutting blazes are even unusual, so we don't know.
Speaker 4: For more and from on all of this, go to Facebook,
Speaker 4: go to Earth Ancients and you can see the photographs,
Speaker 4: or go to YouTube and see the details. It's pretty amazing. Hey,
Speaker 4: I want to mention if you're thinking about a great
Speaker 4: gift for twenty twenty six, consider our seventh annual Grand
Speaker 4: Egyptian Tour with Muhammad Ambrahem and Saba Tours. This is
Speaker 4: a world class tour that includes mostly private visits without
Speaker 4: the general public. All your accommodations, your flights, your bus, terrors,
Speaker 4: your hotel, all your food and beverage for an excellent
Speaker 4: price half off the general price of this twelve day tour.
Speaker 4: For all the details, go to Earth Ancients dot com,
Speaker 4: Forward slash Tours check it out. This is again a
Speaker 4: fabulous tour about how full We only think about twenty
Speaker 4: twenty five people and it's a wonderful, wonderful gift. We
Speaker 4: like to call the diplomatic tour because you're treated like
Speaker 4: a diplomat from your country, and from the very minute
Speaker 4: you step off the plane in Cairo to the minute
Speaker 4: you get back on the plane to fly back home,
Speaker 4: you are treated like royalty. It's a diplomatic tour from
Speaker 4: start to finish. Come out and join us. It's April
Speaker 4: twenty eighth through May tenth. It's a fabulous tour. For
Speaker 4: more information you go to earth Agents dot com, Forward
Speaker 4: slash Tours. Come out and join us. All right, that's
Speaker 4: it for this program. I want to think my guest
Speaker 4: today Adam Young, coming to us from the East coast
Speaker 4: of the United States. As always the team of Gail
Speaker 4: Tour and Feya, our video expert. You guys rock all right,
Speaker 4: take care of me well, and we will talk to
Speaker 4: you next time. Have a great Christmas.
Speaker 3: A g.