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Terms and 44 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:03.519 conditions of the playing see website for details. 45 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:15.800 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 46 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:18.919 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 47 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:26.280 written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 48 00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:30.000 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 49 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:34.639 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 50 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:38.240 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 51 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:52.120 Good Evening, a true recounting of the high profile Oregon 52 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:56.800 murder case that led to Carly's Law. Part memoir, part 53 00:02:56.840 --> 00:03:00.960 investigative journalism. This is the story and rule called I 54 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:06.120 Must Read. Reminiscent of Capodi's in Cold Blood. The book 55 00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:09.560 has been written in the tradition of new journalism. The 56 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:13.800 writer's proximity to the people involved make for unrelenting storytelling. 57 00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:20.360 As Carly's abuse escalates, the investigations unravel at a rapid firepace. 58 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:23.800 The book that we're featuring this evening is Carly Shean 59 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:28.039 True Crime of Carly's Law with my special guest, journalist 60 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:32.280 and author Karen Spears Zacharias. Welcome to the program, and 61 00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:35.000 thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Karen 62 00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:38.360 Spears Zacharias, Thank. 63 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:42.439 You, Dan. It's always great to be with listeners around 64 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:44.680 the globe. 65 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:51.000 Thank you, And like I mentioned, this is a story 66 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:55.319 that many stories affect me, but this one I think 67 00:03:55.439 --> 00:04:01.520 is unparalleled in terms of just heart wrench incredible story. 68 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:03.840 And I want to just congratulate you on the writing 69 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:08.000 to bring this incredible story to life. Thanks, Let's get 70 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:12.639 right into this. Oh, you're welcome. Let's get right into 71 00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:19.199 your as we talked about in the introduction, your proximity 72 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:22.879 to this case, tell us how you know Sarah, and 73 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:26.959 tell us just to tell us about your relationship with 74 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:29.199 Sarah and her parents and how you came to get 75 00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:33.160 to know her and how you got to know Carly. 76 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:38.800 She in. So Sarah was Carly's mom that I had 77 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:44.800 met Sarah years before when she herself was thirteen fourteen 78 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:48.879 years old, and I have a degree in education and 79 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:52.600 I was doing some substitute teaching and a small rural 80 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:58.639 organ town called Helix. Sarah was a student there, and 81 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:08.040 she was in a program for in school suspension basically. 82 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:08.720 And. 83 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:14.199 I had my husband is an educator as well, and 84 00:05:14.439 --> 00:05:19.920 over the years we had invited trouble kids into her 85 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:25.639 home and you know, just formed relationships in a mentoring way. 86 00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:31.680 Sarah is hard to miss in a crown and in 87 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:36.279 a small classroom even more hard to miss. Not that 88 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:40.360 she's loud or boisterous or any of that. She's very quiet, 89 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:47.720 very self spoken, but extremely beautiful. And she is biracial 90 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:51.839 and was living in a community that had like a 91 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:58.720 four percent minority rate, so right off the bat she 92 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:06.759 was noticeable. But she was also chrismatic and engaging and sweet. 93 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:15.199 She just had a very sweet kind of vulnerability to her, 94 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:19.399 so that anybody, and there were plenty of people, not 95 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:23.600 just me, There were plenty of people in the community 96 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:28.600 in which Sarah lived and I lived that surrounded her 97 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:34.040 and encouraged her in a mentoring way. So that's where 98 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:39.000 I first met Sarah, and we developed that kind of 99 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:43.879 mentoring friendship. Not I mean it listened. There were we 100 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:46.360 had four kids of our own, my husband and I. 101 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:48.759 There were kids in and out of our home all 102 00:06:48.839 --> 00:06:52.879 the time. Sarah just became one of those kids who 103 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:56.160 was in and out of our homes. We didn't know 104 00:06:56.279 --> 00:06:59.399 when I first met her, but we attended church with 105 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:05.399 sarah parents, Jane and Carol Brill Sarah. I learned over 106 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:08.800 a course of time that Sarah had been adopted. She 107 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:13.240 was adopted as a baby, and she was the oldest 108 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:16.759 of Jeane and Carol's kids. They went on to have 109 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:23.439 two children of their own, not through adoption but through 110 00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:31.279 natural process, and so I knew Sarah's brother, I knew 111 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:35.720 of her sister. I didn't know her sister that well. Her. 112 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:40.519 I believe her brother had been a student of my husband's, 113 00:07:40.759 --> 00:07:43.680 but we all went to the same church, and we 114 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:46.360 didn't know that initially that we learned that over time. 115 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:53.279 Sarah's mother worked at the junior high so I had 116 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:58.480 had some encounters with her. Sarah's father was in the 117 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:03.759 medical business, so I knew of him that I didn't 118 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:07.240 know him that well. Uh. Sarah would come in and 119 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:13.920 out of our home and developed a friendship that way, 120 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:19.639 just that mentoring. She felt like a kind of like 121 00:08:19.959 --> 00:08:23.079 a I had three daughters of my own, so kind 122 00:08:23.079 --> 00:08:26.920 of like a fourth daughter to me, and I regarded 123 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:31.920 her that way. When Sarah graduated from high school, she 124 00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:38.919 was a fabulous runner and very well read student, but 125 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:47.159 not necessarily because of her own discipline issues, not high 126 00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:52.840 achieving student. But she had earned a scholarship to I 127 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:58.559 believe it was Michigan, but her parents didn't want her 128 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:00.879 to go, so she ended up going to the local 129 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:06.600 community college there in Pendleton, Oregon called Blue Mountain Community College. 130 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:11.799 And during that first year at Blue Mountain Community College, 131 00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:14.440 Sarah showed up at our house. What are you being? 132 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:21.159 Told me that she was pregnant and asked if my 133 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:24.559 husband and I would be willing to adopt that child. 134 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:31.559 I was quite taken back by that. Of course, my 135 00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:35.840 youngest was ten years old. My husband was all on board. 136 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:39.360 My husband would have adopted thirty children if I just 137 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:41.679 stay home and take care of them, right, He used 138 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:46.000 agree with kids, and I loved kids as well. We 139 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:49.000 had four of them, and like I said, they were 140 00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:52.279 in and over our home. But the notion of adopting 141 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:56.120 a baby was daunting to me because my youngest was 142 00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:01.279 ten and I had gone through that stage with my children, 143 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.240 so I wasn't quite as eager about it as my 144 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:09.399 husband was. But of course I was willing to help 145 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:13.039 out anyway, even if that meant But as I told 146 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:17.679 Sarah at the time, you know, sure, we're willing to 147 00:10:17.799 --> 00:10:22.559 do this with a few caveats. If if we adopt 148 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:26.960 this child, we want you involved in this child's life. 149 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:35.720 We want our relationship with you to continue. But lastly, 150 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:39.519 the one qualifier for us was that if we were 151 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:44.960 going to raise jan in Carol's grandchild in that small community. 152 00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:50.320 We wanted gen and Carol Burrill's permission to do that 153 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:55.200 or blessing, because I you know, I knew how I 154 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:57.600 would fill as a mother if this were my daughter, 155 00:10:58.759 --> 00:11:03.759 So I put that requirement. We put that requirement in place, 156 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:08.600 and Sarah was annoyed by that. She did not understand 157 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:12.440 why in the world we would need Jeene and Carroll's permission. 158 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:16.600 But when she asked her parents about it, of course 159 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:22.240 they were not supported, but that in any way because 160 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:25.720 it would be mostly hard, difficult for them, I'm sure. 161 00:11:27.879 --> 00:11:33.159 So Oddly enough, it seemed on to me at the 162 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:38.519 time Sarah went off to come to Washington to a 163 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:44.200 home for unwed beatherds, and that just seemed to me 164 00:11:45.080 --> 00:11:52.480 to be a pretty archaic approach too, you know, a 165 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:58.879 problem that's existed since human kind came around, So teenage 166 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:03.120 pregnancy at that time, this was the late nineties. At 167 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:06.879 that time, I just I mean, Sarah was nineteen years old, 168 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:10.039 so it wasn't like you're daily with a fourteen year 169 00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:13.840 old at that time. She was nineteen, she was in college. 170 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:17.600 I saw no reason at all for her to go 171 00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:21.080 to a home for unwed mothers. I was not involved 172 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:23.919 in that decision. I don't know how it came about, 173 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:29.679 but once I found out that's where she was, I 174 00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:38.039 made several trips up to the home myself and visit 175 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:44.720 with Sarah. It just seemed a very depressing place to be. 176 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:50.320 Sarah seemed completely out of sorts there. I didn't know 177 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:53.759 if it had been her decision to go there or 178 00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:58.600 her parents' decision that she go there. It seemed to 179 00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:04.720 fill her with shame, and I was loath about the 180 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:10.039 whole thing. You know, we explained to Sarah that we 181 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:13.720 could not adopt her baby because we couldn't live in 182 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:20.279 the town with her parents knowing all of that. So 183 00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:21.879 we left that. 184 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:24.639 Go and. 185 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:29.000 Let her kind of work through some of that with 186 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:36.519 her parents. But eventually we were involved in introducing her 187 00:13:37.159 --> 00:13:42.840 to the family that did adopt that first child. 188 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:49.159 Yeah, you talk about this couple, Chuck and Missy McDonald, 189 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:54.360 and you talk about how once this child was adopted, 190 00:13:54.519 --> 00:13:57.679 and you said you knew you thought you knew Sarah 191 00:13:57.759 --> 00:14:01.360 quite well, and you admired her very much, but what 192 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:06.600 did you note from her behavior with her child and 193 00:14:06.759 --> 00:14:07.799 this adopted couple. 194 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:14.559 Well, so this adopted couple was a friend of a 195 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:18.960 friend somebody I knewed through Bible study. Actually, a nurse 196 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:21.600 had come to me and said that she had a 197 00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:26.679 friend in Portland and they had They had a similar family, tars, 198 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:33.600 lots of older kids, and they had been trying to 199 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:36.919 have another child and had not been able to so 200 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:41.679 they had been wanting to adopt. So I didn't know 201 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:49.039 the couple that well, but I trusted my girlfriend who 202 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:55.679 recommended them, and I went to Sarah and said, you know, 203 00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:59.000 I know about this couple. Would you like to meet them? 204 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:04.360 And I made arrangements for her to meet with this mother. 205 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:09.759 And this happened in a small town on the coast 206 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:15.679 where my sister lives in Washington State. So we all 207 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:20.120 met there and they hit it off right off the bet. 208 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:25.840 So it was an interesting moment for me because it 209 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:28.559 was like I was grieving a baby that I wasn't 210 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:31.519 going to have. But I was happy first there because 211 00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:35.639 I could tell that she connected with this mom, So 212 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:40.519 that was great. But what happened then is Sarah went 213 00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:45.720 into labor and she called me. She was in Tacoma. 214 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:49.039 I was in Pendleton. She called and asked me to 215 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:52.639 come up, and I said, is your mom there? And 216 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:57.679 she said yes, and I said, Sarah, I'm not coming up. 217 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:00.799 If your mom is there and miss she is there, 218 00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:07.240 I don't belong there, right And Sarah was very upset 219 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:11.240 that I would not come up, But I just felt 220 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:17.120 I was just trying to be respectful of every you know, 221 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:22.000 her mom's feelings and Missy's feelings. I didn't feel like 222 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:26.159 I had a place there other than, you know, to 223 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:32.960 be that emotional connection with Sarah that up, said Sarah 224 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:36.799 that I didn't come up a few days, so I 225 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:39.960 didn't see her interaction with the baby to begin with. 226 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:44.799 A few days later, I got a phone call from Missy. 227 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:49.440 Sarah was getting ready to check on the hospital and 228 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:54.399 she didn't want to let the baby go. And I 229 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:57.960 was of two minds on that. Right, Like, I felt 230 00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:02.120 like Sarah was completely capable, well at age nineteen, of 231 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:04.839 taking care of a baby on her own. If that's 232 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:08.880 what she chose to do, I knew that she would 233 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:11.480 do it. I felt at that point that she would 234 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:19.319 do a good job. Missy was distraught in that way 235 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:25.200 that adopted moms can get sometimes in those situations, is 236 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:30.599 so full of emotion, and so I just said to Missy, listen, 237 00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:36.039 why didn't you and by Sarah home, because I mean, 238 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:40.759 you know, we Sarah had been living with us through 239 00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:43.680 part of our not at that time, but we had 240 00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:46.720 opened the door and said to her after the baby's born, 241 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:50.359 why don't you come live with us, you can go 242 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:53.759 to college here, you can live with us, because the 243 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:58.519 situation between their and her mom had deteriorate it badly 244 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:04.480 through those fragnancy and so we had opened that door. 245 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:09.359 But Sarah wasn't ready to let call the baby. And 246 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:11.599 I mean I didn't care whether she let call the 247 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:14.759 baby or not. I didn't have a vested interests at 248 00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:18.079 that point other than I wanted it all to be 249 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:23.720 Sarah's choice. Let her make the decision, because she was 250 00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:26.319 the one that would have to live with the consequences 251 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:33.319 of it. And so Kathy, Kathy and Missy and Chuck 252 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:38.920 invited Sarah to their homes and Sarah went home with 253 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:43.559 them for about two weeks, long enough for the baby 254 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:47.640 shower to happen. And that is when I first encountered 255 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:52.759 Sara with the baby, and she was very tender, She 256 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:59.880 seemed very attentive, actually very concerned, but she, like any 257 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:06.480 girl in that situation, was confused about what she really wanted, 258 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:11.359 and I think she found a lot of pressure from 259 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:17.200 Missy and Chuck on what to do. Eventually, she did 260 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:19.920 leave their home and she came to live with them, 261 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:25.240 and she left the baby with them. 262 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:32.759 Now, tell us about what happens with Missy and you. 263 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:38.920 You are continuing contact with Missy as well regarding Sarah, 264 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:43.279 and there are Missy tells you some things that are 265 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:47.599 surprised to you about her. So tell us what those 266 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:51.279 things are and how you end your relationship with Missy. 267 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:52.599 Who do you side with? 268 00:19:52.799 --> 00:20:00.000 Well? So there was a natural drawing away of miss 269 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:05.119 between Sarah and her. I don't think that surprised me 270 00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:12.799 at all, Missy. It's I mean, I don't mean this 271 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:16.920 in a cross way at all. They are great Missy 272 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:20.759 and Chuck are great people, and they have a beautiful, 273 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:28.599 loving family. But there comes that point where the mom 274 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:34.759 who's given up the child can't help but feel marginalized 275 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:40.079 or neglected. Missy had been very attended since Sarah up 276 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:44.960 until she adopted the baby. Then of course all of 277 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:49.880 the focus goes on that child. My focus from the 278 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:55.000 get go had always been on Sarah and less on 279 00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:03.359 this baby. That I was not adopting. Apparently there had 280 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:10.160 been an exchange of uncomfortable words between Sarah and Missy 281 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:16.640 a since where Missy felt like she had given Sarah 282 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:21.359 opportunity to build a relationship with this infant and Sarah 283 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:23.880 didn't take advantage. 284 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:24.400 Of it, or. 285 00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:26.839 You know. 286 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:30.720 There came a point where Missy felt like she needed 287 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:34.440 to cut off contact with Sarah for the health of 288 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:44.160 her own family, and I was probably, well, I wasn't probably. 289 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:48.720 I was definitely very protective of Sarah at that point. 290 00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:55.400 I had had a teen pregnancy myself at age seventeen 291 00:21:55.680 --> 00:22:01.200 and had had an abortion, and Sarah knew that, and 292 00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:06.839 so it was easy for me to relate to the 293 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:13.000 emotional conflict that Sarah found herself in because I had 294 00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:18.920 found myself in similar conflict. So I was extremely protective 295 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:28.160 of Sarah and annoyed, I think at Missy's comments, and 296 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:33.880 I felt a little bit like Sarah had been used 297 00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:38.960 and I didn't like that. So there came a point 298 00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:44.279 where where I cut off, where we mutually, I think 299 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:49.240 came to I think Missy had written me a letter 300 00:22:50.279 --> 00:22:55.160 and kind of cut things off. I think there had 301 00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:58.160 been an exchange of letters back and forth, and so 302 00:22:58.759 --> 00:23:02.720 that was fine. Sarah continued to live with us for 303 00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:09.000 about a year while she was attending the local community college. 304 00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:14.480 She dated off and on during that time. Uh, we 305 00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:21.519 had a nursing loving relationship. Absolutely loved Sarah and she 306 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:25.079 knew that I did, and so did my kids, our 307 00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:29.279 whole family did. She was part of our Christmas card 308 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:35.079 that year. We both loved reading and writing, so we 309 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:41.880 shared that. And she was just always so much fun. 310 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:54.839 But I was troubled by her relationship with men. She 311 00:23:55.039 --> 00:24:00.519 had started dating someone in town that I felt like 312 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:06.880 the reason she was dating him was for selfish reasons, 313 00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:16.279 for materialistic reasons. Sarah was fun and she loved to party. 314 00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:21.119 She at that time partied to me, Joseph, you know, 315 00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:27.000 hanging out. I didn't. I was unaware of any drug 316 00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:31.519 use or alcohol used. We didn't drink in our home. 317 00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:38.519 We had had taken in other kids prior, and so 318 00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:41.960 the rule of the house had always been, you know, 319 00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:48.000 no drinking, no drugs. If Sarah was using anything or 320 00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:51.640 abusing anything at that point, I was completely unaware of it. 321 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:59.319 But I did feel like she was leading. She would 322 00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:03.920 inter really reationships with men, young men and lead them 323 00:25:04.039 --> 00:25:10.279 on and used them, and I saw this as a 324 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:14.519 pattern throughout that year and it concerned me greatly. 325 00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:20.519 Now tell us about how things seem to change in 326 00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:23.200 your eyes and a lot of people's eyes when she 327 00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:26.519 meets this David Shean, and you could tell us a 328 00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:29.960 little bit about David she and how they met before 329 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:34.480 we talk about what happened soon after in their relationship. 330 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:43.039 Yeah, So we had at throughout the year, encouraged Sarah 331 00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:47.400 to go off to university, and we both my husband 332 00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:50.640 and I are graduates of Oregon State University and Kerballis 333 00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:53.200 which was about a six and a half hour drive 334 00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:58.880 from Tennelton where we were living. Throughout that year that 335 00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:01.599 she lived with us, we just encouraged Sarah to go 336 00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:05.319 away to Corballence, to go to Orgon State. She was 337 00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:08.880 a bright girl. She could have studied anything and done 338 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:13.640 really well. We encouraged her go to Isshue, so she did. 339 00:26:13.880 --> 00:26:16.720 She went down to is Shoe. I was working as 340 00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:20.000 a reporter and journalist, had four kids teenagers on my 341 00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:23.119 own at that time, was working on some other book 342 00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:26.640 projects as well. This was a very busy time of 343 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:29.240 life press. But one day we get this phone call 344 00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:33.240 from Sarah saying she had somebody she wanted to bring 345 00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:40.440 by to meet us, and it was a fellow by 346 00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:43.359 the name of David she Han, and he was from Ireland. 347 00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:48.079 And my husband, who had grown up in Ecuador, is 348 00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:52.160 a big soccer fan, and so was David she Han. 349 00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:56.839 So when Sarah brought David to the house, we adored 350 00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:00.319 him from the get go. Oh my gosh, I couldn't 351 00:27:01.119 --> 00:27:04.759 I couldn't have been more happy for Sarah that this 352 00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:09.880 was a guy she met, She was married and they 353 00:27:09.880 --> 00:27:16.240 were moving to Ireland, and I was ecstatic because I 354 00:27:16.279 --> 00:27:28.079 felt that David was funny and kind and absolutely adored Sarah. 355 00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:32.000 And I felt like that emptiness that she felt in 356 00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:37.119 her soul having been adopted and then adopting out a baby, 357 00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:42.200 I felt like David would bring healing to that, and 358 00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:46.559 she seemed genuinely happy at the time they both did. 359 00:27:48.039 --> 00:27:51.960 They did go and live in Ireland for a while. 360 00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:55.319 I can't remember. I think it was about eighteen months 361 00:27:56.119 --> 00:28:05.359 they came back to Corvellis and Sarah got pregnant with 362 00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:12.640 Carly she had. I first met Carly right around her 363 00:28:12.759 --> 00:28:16.680 christening day. I think she was about six weeks old. 364 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:20.119 When I first could get away to get down to 365 00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:25.319 Corballis to see Carly, and my daughter was with me, 366 00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:33.119 and when they knew we were coming, when we arrived, 367 00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:39.839 only David was there with this infant daughter, and Sarah 368 00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:45.799 had gone out golfy, and I thought that was strange 369 00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:50.039 that Sarah would not be there knowing. I mean, she 370 00:28:50.200 --> 00:28:55.440 loved my daughters and she loved me, and I just thought, well, 371 00:28:55.640 --> 00:28:59.680 this is just odd. And we spent the afternoon with 372 00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:03.640 Day and with Carling. She was wonderful and sweede and 373 00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:09.480 all of those things. We had a great visit. And 374 00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:19.359 during that time period, I had a book published, so 375 00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:22.759 we were we were very, very busy. We ended up 376 00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:27.799 moving that year all of those things. Somewhere during that year, 377 00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:33.119 about when Carly was a year old, Sarah called me 378 00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:37.480 and in the new town we were living in Hermiston, 379 00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:44.279 and she said that she wanted to talk to me. 380 00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:47.079 It was a very tumultuous time in my life. I 381 00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:50.279 was working on a memoir about my father's stuff in Vietnam, 382 00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:55.519 and I was literally in the throes of quitting my 383 00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:58.720 job and going to Vietnam. Like I was leaving that 384 00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:05.480 next week for Vietnam. And this was during the time 385 00:30:05.559 --> 00:30:08.440 here of the war in Iraq, and so it was 386 00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:14.799 very chaotic for a news journalist like I was. Sarah 387 00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:18.599 called and we were just I just had an upsetting 388 00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:22.240 from call at work, and then I had this call 389 00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:26.200 from Sarah, so I know exactly where I was. I 390 00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:31.359 pulled over to talk to Sarah and she told me 391 00:30:31.720 --> 00:30:37.519 that she was leaving David. And you know, probably because 392 00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:41.119 of where I was emotionally myself working on the memoir 393 00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:47.440 about my father's death, and as much as anything, I 394 00:30:47.559 --> 00:30:50.680 just blew up at Sarah. I was like, what do 395 00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:55.240 you mean You're leaving David? Like David's like the best 396 00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:58.039 thing that's ever happened in her life. Why would you 397 00:30:58.119 --> 00:31:04.440 be leaving him? And she said, I'm just bored, I'm 398 00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:08.279 not happy, and I was really like, I lost it. 399 00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:12.759 My youngest saugh was home, my other three kids had 400 00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:17.839 come off to college at that time. Was just I 401 00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:22.559