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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 8: Good Evening, a true recounting of the high profile Oregon
Speaker 8: murder case that led to Carly's Law. Part memoir, part
Speaker 8: investigative journalism. This is the story and rule called I
Speaker 8: Must Read. Reminiscent of Capodi's in Cold Blood. The book
Speaker 8: has been written in the tradition of new journalism. The
Speaker 8: writer's proximity to the people involved make for unrelenting storytelling.
Speaker 8: As Carly's abuse escalates, the investigations unravel at a rapid firepace.
Speaker 8: The book that we're featuring this evening is Carly Shean
Speaker 8: True Crime of Carly's Law with my special guest, journalist
Speaker 8: and author Karen Spears Zacharias. Welcome to the program, and
Speaker 8: thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Karen
Speaker 8: Spears Zacharias, Thank.
Speaker 7: You, Dan. It's always great to be with listeners around
Speaker 7: the globe.
Speaker 8: Thank you, And like I mentioned, this is a story
Speaker 8: that many stories affect me, but this one I think
Speaker 8: is unparalleled in terms of just heart wrench incredible story.
Speaker 8: And I want to just congratulate you on the writing
Speaker 8: to bring this incredible story to life. Thanks, Let's get
Speaker 8: right into this. Oh, you're welcome. Let's get right into
Speaker 8: your as we talked about in the introduction, your proximity
Speaker 8: to this case, tell us how you know Sarah, and
Speaker 8: tell us just to tell us about your relationship with
Speaker 8: Sarah and her parents and how you came to get
Speaker 8: to know her and how you got to know Carly.
Speaker 7: She in. So Sarah was Carly's mom that I had
Speaker 7: met Sarah years before when she herself was thirteen fourteen
Speaker 7: years old, and I have a degree in education and
Speaker 7: I was doing some substitute teaching and a small rural
Speaker 7: organ town called Helix. Sarah was a student there, and
Speaker 7: she was in a program for in school suspension basically.
Speaker 8: And.
Speaker 7: I had my husband is an educator as well, and
Speaker 7: over the years we had invited trouble kids into her
Speaker 7: home and you know, just formed relationships in a mentoring way.
Speaker 7: Sarah is hard to miss in a crown and in
Speaker 7: a small classroom even more hard to miss. Not that
Speaker 7: she's loud or boisterous or any of that. She's very quiet,
Speaker 7: very self spoken, but extremely beautiful. And she is biracial
Speaker 7: and was living in a community that had like a
Speaker 7: four percent minority rate, so right off the bat she
Speaker 7: was noticeable. But she was also chrismatic and engaging and sweet.
Speaker 7: She just had a very sweet kind of vulnerability to her,
Speaker 7: so that anybody, and there were plenty of people, not
Speaker 7: just me, There were plenty of people in the community
Speaker 7: in which Sarah lived and I lived that surrounded her
Speaker 7: and encouraged her in a mentoring way. So that's where
Speaker 7: I first met Sarah, and we developed that kind of
Speaker 7: mentoring friendship. Not I mean it listened. There were we
Speaker 7: had four kids of our own, my husband and I.
Speaker 7: There were kids in and out of our home all
Speaker 7: the time. Sarah just became one of those kids who
Speaker 7: was in and out of our homes. We didn't know
Speaker 7: when I first met her, but we attended church with
Speaker 7: sarah parents, Jane and Carol Brill Sarah. I learned over
Speaker 7: a course of time that Sarah had been adopted. She
Speaker 7: was adopted as a baby, and she was the oldest
Speaker 7: of Jeane and Carol's kids. They went on to have
Speaker 7: two children of their own, not through adoption but through
Speaker 7: natural process, and so I knew Sarah's brother, I knew
Speaker 7: of her sister. I didn't know her sister that well. Her.
Speaker 7: I believe her brother had been a student of my husband's,
Speaker 7: but we all went to the same church, and we
Speaker 7: didn't know that initially that we learned that over time.
Speaker 7: Sarah's mother worked at the junior high so I had
Speaker 7: had some encounters with her. Sarah's father was in the
Speaker 7: medical business, so I knew of him that I didn't
Speaker 7: know him that well. Uh. Sarah would come in and
Speaker 7: out of our home and developed a friendship that way,
Speaker 7: just that mentoring. She felt like a kind of like
Speaker 7: a I had three daughters of my own, so kind
Speaker 7: of like a fourth daughter to me, and I regarded
Speaker 7: her that way. When Sarah graduated from high school, she
Speaker 7: was a fabulous runner and very well read student, but
Speaker 7: not necessarily because of her own discipline issues, not high
Speaker 7: achieving student. But she had earned a scholarship to I
Speaker 7: believe it was Michigan, but her parents didn't want her
Speaker 7: to go, so she ended up going to the local
Speaker 7: community college there in Pendleton, Oregon called Blue Mountain Community College.
Speaker 7: And during that first year at Blue Mountain Community College,
Speaker 7: Sarah showed up at our house. What are you being?
Speaker 7: Told me that she was pregnant and asked if my
Speaker 7: husband and I would be willing to adopt that child.
Speaker 7: I was quite taken back by that. Of course, my
Speaker 7: youngest was ten years old. My husband was all on board.
Speaker 7: My husband would have adopted thirty children if I just
Speaker 7: stay home and take care of them, right, He used
Speaker 7: agree with kids, and I loved kids as well. We
Speaker 7: had four of them, and like I said, they were
Speaker 7: in and over our home. But the notion of adopting
Speaker 7: a baby was daunting to me because my youngest was
Speaker 7: ten and I had gone through that stage with my children,
Speaker 7: so I wasn't quite as eager about it as my
Speaker 7: husband was. But of course I was willing to help
Speaker 7: out anyway, even if that meant But as I told
Speaker 7: Sarah at the time, you know, sure, we're willing to
Speaker 7: do this with a few caveats. If if we adopt
Speaker 7: this child, we want you involved in this child's life.
Speaker 7: We want our relationship with you to continue. But lastly,
Speaker 7: the one qualifier for us was that if we were
Speaker 7: going to raise jan in Carol's grandchild in that small community.
Speaker 7: We wanted gen and Carol Burrill's permission to do that
Speaker 7: or blessing, because I you know, I knew how I
Speaker 7: would fill as a mother if this were my daughter,
Speaker 7: So I put that requirement. We put that requirement in place,
Speaker 7: and Sarah was annoyed by that. She did not understand
Speaker 7: why in the world we would need Jeene and Carroll's permission.
Speaker 7: But when she asked her parents about it, of course
Speaker 7: they were not supported, but that in any way because
Speaker 7: it would be mostly hard, difficult for them, I'm sure.
Speaker 7: So Oddly enough, it seemed on to me at the
Speaker 7: time Sarah went off to come to Washington to a
Speaker 7: home for unwed beatherds, and that just seemed to me
Speaker 7: to be a pretty archaic approach too, you know, a
Speaker 7: problem that's existed since human kind came around, So teenage
Speaker 7: pregnancy at that time, this was the late nineties. At
Speaker 7: that time, I just I mean, Sarah was nineteen years old,
Speaker 7: so it wasn't like you're daily with a fourteen year
Speaker 7: old at that time. She was nineteen, she was in college.
Speaker 7: I saw no reason at all for her to go
Speaker 7: to a home for unwed mothers. I was not involved
Speaker 7: in that decision. I don't know how it came about,
Speaker 7: but once I found out that's where she was, I
Speaker 7: made several trips up to the home myself and visit
Speaker 7: with Sarah. It just seemed a very depressing place to be.
Speaker 7: Sarah seemed completely out of sorts there. I didn't know
Speaker 7: if it had been her decision to go there or
Speaker 7: her parents' decision that she go there. It seemed to
Speaker 7: fill her with shame, and I was loath about the
Speaker 7: whole thing. You know, we explained to Sarah that we
Speaker 7: could not adopt her baby because we couldn't live in
Speaker 7: the town with her parents knowing all of that. So
Speaker 7: we left that.
Speaker 8: Go and.
Speaker 7: Let her kind of work through some of that with
Speaker 7: her parents. But eventually we were involved in introducing her
Speaker 7: to the family that did adopt that first child.
Speaker 8: Yeah, you talk about this couple, Chuck and Missy McDonald,
Speaker 8: and you talk about how once this child was adopted,
Speaker 8: and you said you knew you thought you knew Sarah
Speaker 8: quite well, and you admired her very much, but what
Speaker 8: did you note from her behavior with her child and
Speaker 8: this adopted couple.
Speaker 7: Well, so this adopted couple was a friend of a
Speaker 7: friend somebody I knewed through Bible study. Actually, a nurse
Speaker 7: had come to me and said that she had a
Speaker 7: friend in Portland and they had They had a similar family, tars,
Speaker 7: lots of older kids, and they had been trying to
Speaker 7: have another child and had not been able to so
Speaker 7: they had been wanting to adopt. So I didn't know
Speaker 7: the couple that well, but I trusted my girlfriend who
Speaker 7: recommended them, and I went to Sarah and said, you know,
Speaker 7: I know about this couple. Would you like to meet them?
Speaker 7: And I made arrangements for her to meet with this mother.
Speaker 7: And this happened in a small town on the coast
Speaker 7: where my sister lives in Washington State. So we all
Speaker 7: met there and they hit it off right off the bet.
Speaker 7: So it was an interesting moment for me because it
Speaker 7: was like I was grieving a baby that I wasn't
Speaker 7: going to have. But I was happy first there because
Speaker 7: I could tell that she connected with this mom, So
Speaker 7: that was great. But what happened then is Sarah went
Speaker 7: into labor and she called me. She was in Tacoma.
Speaker 7: I was in Pendleton. She called and asked me to
Speaker 7: come up, and I said, is your mom there? And
Speaker 7: she said yes, and I said, Sarah, I'm not coming up.
Speaker 7: If your mom is there and miss she is there,
Speaker 7: I don't belong there, right And Sarah was very upset
Speaker 7: that I would not come up, But I just felt
Speaker 7: I was just trying to be respectful of every you know,
Speaker 7: her mom's feelings and Missy's feelings. I didn't feel like
Speaker 7: I had a place there other than, you know, to
Speaker 7: be that emotional connection with Sarah that up, said Sarah
Speaker 7: that I didn't come up a few days, so I
Speaker 7: didn't see her interaction with the baby to begin with.
Speaker 7: A few days later, I got a phone call from Missy.
Speaker 7: Sarah was getting ready to check on the hospital and
Speaker 7: she didn't want to let the baby go. And I
Speaker 7: was of two minds on that. Right, Like, I felt
Speaker 7: like Sarah was completely capable, well at age nineteen, of
Speaker 7: taking care of a baby on her own. If that's
Speaker 7: what she chose to do, I knew that she would
Speaker 7: do it. I felt at that point that she would
Speaker 7: do a good job. Missy was distraught in that way
Speaker 7: that adopted moms can get sometimes in those situations, is
Speaker 7: so full of emotion, and so I just said to Missy, listen,
Speaker 7: why didn't you and by Sarah home, because I mean,
Speaker 7: you know, we Sarah had been living with us through
Speaker 7: part of our not at that time, but we had
Speaker 7: opened the door and said to her after the baby's born,
Speaker 7: why don't you come live with us, you can go
Speaker 7: to college here, you can live with us, because the
Speaker 7: situation between their and her mom had deteriorate it badly
Speaker 7: through those fragnancy and so we had opened that door.
Speaker 7: But Sarah wasn't ready to let call the baby. And
Speaker 7: I mean I didn't care whether she let call the
Speaker 7: baby or not. I didn't have a vested interests at
Speaker 7: that point other than I wanted it all to be
Speaker 7: Sarah's choice. Let her make the decision, because she was
Speaker 7: the one that would have to live with the consequences
Speaker 7: of it. And so Kathy, Kathy and Missy and Chuck
Speaker 7: invited Sarah to their homes and Sarah went home with
Speaker 7: them for about two weeks, long enough for the baby
Speaker 7: shower to happen. And that is when I first encountered
Speaker 7: Sara with the baby, and she was very tender, She
Speaker 7: seemed very attentive, actually very concerned, but she, like any
Speaker 7: girl in that situation, was confused about what she really wanted,
Speaker 7: and I think she found a lot of pressure from
Speaker 7: Missy and Chuck on what to do. Eventually, she did
Speaker 7: leave their home and she came to live with them,
Speaker 7: and she left the baby with them.
Speaker 8: Now, tell us about what happens with Missy and you.
Speaker 8: You are continuing contact with Missy as well regarding Sarah,
Speaker 8: and there are Missy tells you some things that are
Speaker 8: surprised to you about her. So tell us what those
Speaker 8: things are and how you end your relationship with Missy.
Speaker 8: Who do you side with?
Speaker 7: Well? So there was a natural drawing away of miss
Speaker 7: between Sarah and her. I don't think that surprised me
Speaker 7: at all, Missy. It's I mean, I don't mean this
Speaker 7: in a cross way at all. They are great Missy
Speaker 7: and Chuck are great people, and they have a beautiful,
Speaker 7: loving family. But there comes that point where the mom
Speaker 7: who's given up the child can't help but feel marginalized
Speaker 7: or neglected. Missy had been very attended since Sarah up
Speaker 7: until she adopted the baby. Then of course all of
Speaker 7: the focus goes on that child. My focus from the
Speaker 7: get go had always been on Sarah and less on
Speaker 7: this baby. That I was not adopting. Apparently there had
Speaker 7: been an exchange of uncomfortable words between Sarah and Missy
Speaker 7: a since where Missy felt like she had given Sarah
Speaker 7: opportunity to build a relationship with this infant and Sarah
Speaker 7: didn't take advantage.
Speaker 3: Of it, or.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 7: There came a point where Missy felt like she needed
Speaker 7: to cut off contact with Sarah for the health of
Speaker 7: her own family, and I was probably, well, I wasn't probably.
Speaker 7: I was definitely very protective of Sarah at that point.
Speaker 7: I had had a teen pregnancy myself at age seventeen
Speaker 7: and had had an abortion, and Sarah knew that, and
Speaker 7: so it was easy for me to relate to the
Speaker 7: emotional conflict that Sarah found herself in because I had
Speaker 7: found myself in similar conflict. So I was extremely protective
Speaker 7: of Sarah and annoyed, I think at Missy's comments, and
Speaker 7: I felt a little bit like Sarah had been used
Speaker 7: and I didn't like that. So there came a point
Speaker 7: where where I cut off, where we mutually, I think
Speaker 7: came to I think Missy had written me a letter
Speaker 7: and kind of cut things off. I think there had
Speaker 7: been an exchange of letters back and forth, and so
Speaker 7: that was fine. Sarah continued to live with us for
Speaker 7: about a year while she was attending the local community college.
Speaker 7: She dated off and on during that time. Uh, we
Speaker 7: had a nursing loving relationship. Absolutely loved Sarah and she
Speaker 7: knew that I did, and so did my kids, our
Speaker 7: whole family did. She was part of our Christmas card
Speaker 7: that year. We both loved reading and writing, so we
Speaker 7: shared that. And she was just always so much fun.
Speaker 7: But I was troubled by her relationship with men. She
Speaker 7: had started dating someone in town that I felt like
Speaker 7: the reason she was dating him was for selfish reasons,
Speaker 7: for materialistic reasons. Sarah was fun and she loved to party.
Speaker 7: She at that time partied to me, Joseph, you know,
Speaker 7: hanging out. I didn't. I was unaware of any drug
Speaker 7: use or alcohol used. We didn't drink in our home.
Speaker 7: We had had taken in other kids prior, and so
Speaker 7: the rule of the house had always been, you know,
Speaker 7: no drinking, no drugs. If Sarah was using anything or
Speaker 7: abusing anything at that point, I was completely unaware of it.
Speaker 7: But I did feel like she was leading. She would
Speaker 7: inter really reationships with men, young men and lead them
Speaker 7: on and used them, and I saw this as a
Speaker 7: pattern throughout that year and it concerned me greatly.
Speaker 8: Now tell us about how things seem to change in
Speaker 8: your eyes and a lot of people's eyes when she
Speaker 8: meets this David Shean, and you could tell us a
Speaker 8: little bit about David she and how they met before
Speaker 8: we talk about what happened soon after in their relationship.
Speaker 7: Yeah, So we had at throughout the year, encouraged Sarah
Speaker 7: to go off to university, and we both my husband
Speaker 7: and I are graduates of Oregon State University and Kerballis
Speaker 7: which was about a six and a half hour drive
Speaker 7: from Tennelton where we were living. Throughout that year that
Speaker 7: she lived with us, we just encouraged Sarah to go
Speaker 7: away to Corballence, to go to Orgon State. She was
Speaker 7: a bright girl. She could have studied anything and done
Speaker 7: really well. We encouraged her go to Isshue, so she did.
Speaker 7: She went down to is Shoe. I was working as
Speaker 7: a reporter and journalist, had four kids teenagers on my
Speaker 7: own at that time, was working on some other book
Speaker 7: projects as well. This was a very busy time of
Speaker 7: life press. But one day we get this phone call
Speaker 7: from Sarah saying she had somebody she wanted to bring
Speaker 7: by to meet us, and it was a fellow by
Speaker 7: the name of David she Han, and he was from Ireland.
Speaker 7: And my husband, who had grown up in Ecuador, is
Speaker 7: a big soccer fan, and so was David she Han.
Speaker 7: So when Sarah brought David to the house, we adored
Speaker 7: him from the get go. Oh my gosh, I couldn't
Speaker 7: I couldn't have been more happy for Sarah that this
Speaker 7: was a guy she met, She was married and they
Speaker 7: were moving to Ireland, and I was ecstatic because I
Speaker 7: felt that David was funny and kind and absolutely adored Sarah.
Speaker 7: And I felt like that emptiness that she felt in
Speaker 7: her soul having been adopted and then adopting out a baby,
Speaker 7: I felt like David would bring healing to that, and
Speaker 7: she seemed genuinely happy at the time they both did.
Speaker 7: They did go and live in Ireland for a while.
Speaker 7: I can't remember. I think it was about eighteen months
Speaker 7: they came back to Corvellis and Sarah got pregnant with
Speaker 7: Carly she had. I first met Carly right around her
Speaker 7: christening day. I think she was about six weeks old.
Speaker 7: When I first could get away to get down to
Speaker 7: Corballis to see Carly, and my daughter was with me,
Speaker 7: and when they knew we were coming, when we arrived,
Speaker 7: only David was there with this infant daughter, and Sarah
Speaker 7: had gone out golfy, and I thought that was strange
Speaker 7: that Sarah would not be there knowing. I mean, she
Speaker 7: loved my daughters and she loved me, and I just thought, well,
Speaker 7: this is just odd. And we spent the afternoon with
Speaker 7: Day and with Carling. She was wonderful and sweede and
Speaker 7: all of those things. We had a great visit. And
Speaker 7: during that time period, I had a book published, so
Speaker 7: we were we were very, very busy. We ended up
Speaker 7: moving that year all of those things. Somewhere during that year,
Speaker 7: about when Carly was a year old, Sarah called me
Speaker 7: and in the new town we were living in Hermiston,
Speaker 7: and she said that she wanted to talk to me.
Speaker 7: It was a very tumultuous time in my life. I
Speaker 7: was working on a memoir about my father's stuff in Vietnam,
Speaker 7: and I was literally in the throes of quitting my
Speaker 7: job and going to Vietnam. Like I was leaving that
Speaker 7: next week for Vietnam. And this was during the time
Speaker 7: here of the war in Iraq, and so it was
Speaker 7: very chaotic for a news journalist like I was. Sarah
Speaker 7: called and we were just I just had an upsetting
Speaker 7: from call at work, and then I had this call
Speaker 7: from Sarah, so I know exactly where I was. I
Speaker 7: pulled over to talk to Sarah and she told me
Speaker 7: that she was leaving David. And you know, probably because
Speaker 7: of where I was emotionally myself working on the memoir
Speaker 7: about my father's death, and as much as anything, I
Speaker 7: just blew up at Sarah. I was like, what do
Speaker 7: you mean You're leaving David? Like David's like the best
Speaker 7: thing that's ever happened in her life. Why would you
Speaker 7: be leaving him? And she said, I'm just bored, I'm
Speaker 7: not happy, and I was really like, I lost it.
Speaker 7: My youngest saugh was home, my other three kids had
Speaker 7: come off to college at that time. Was just I
Speaker 7: think a combustion of a lot of bad Carmen at
Speaker 7: that point. I had never ever yelled at there before.
Speaker 7: I had never I mean, she did things like anybody
Speaker 7: when you're living together, there'd be things that agitate you.
Speaker 7: But I'd never been dreamly upset with her over anything.
Speaker 7: But that day over Carly. I just had this sinking,
Speaker 7: sick feeling, not that any harm would come to Carly,
Speaker 7: but that it would be the worst decision ever for
Speaker 7: her to leave Dave and for her to be the
Speaker 7: parent of Carly, because I think I knew in that
Speaker 7: moment that and I'm probably had a sense of that
Speaker 7: throughout the years that Sarah's big struggle had always been
Speaker 7: that Sarah put Sarah first, and so I just told
Speaker 7: her that she couldn't do this, that Carly needed her dad.
Speaker 7: We just had a big fight. That's just what I
Speaker 7: built down to. I left for Vietnam the next week.
Speaker 7: That was I can't So that would have been in February,
Speaker 7: I think of two thousand and three or four three, yeah, three,
Speaker 7: And I did not see Sarah again per years, did
Speaker 7: not even speak to her again for years.
Speaker 8: What you read, what you read in the book is
Speaker 8: that you actually added, like again in your anger, you said, listen,
Speaker 8: you are not going to be always able to trade
Speaker 8: off on your looks, and someday you're going to be
Speaker 8: old and ugly, and what are you going to do?
Speaker 8: And I guess that was part of the insult. And
Speaker 8: you didn't speak to her again it was till two
Speaker 8: thousand and seven when you say you made a trip
Speaker 8: with your husband Tim to Bend, Oregon March two thousand
Speaker 8: and seven to visit two of your four children, Stefan
Speaker 8: and Connie, and you found that day's newspaper and you
Speaker 8: saw Sarah's photo holding up holding up a burnt dollar bill.
Speaker 8: It didn't have a name there, but you saw, you recognized,
Speaker 8: and you all recognized Sarah's photo. So tell us what
Speaker 8: happened that eventful day from them.
Speaker 7: So, I actually had not seen the photo. My son
Speaker 7: saw it. Stephen had seen it, and he held up
Speaker 7: the newspaper to me that morning over breakfast and said, Mom,
Speaker 7: isn't this Sarah? And I took one look at it
Speaker 7: and I knew it was And I said, yes, what
Speaker 7: was the article say? And he said, doesn't say anything
Speaker 7: about her. It just as about a bunch of girls
Speaker 7: out on the town and some of their money got
Speaker 7: caught in a fire pit. And I said, so is
Speaker 7: Sarah living here in Ben Dorgan because my daughter just
Speaker 7: moved there and my son was already living there. And
Speaker 7: of course, because I had not been in contact with Sarah,
Speaker 7: nobody had been in contact with Sarah and yes, I
Speaker 7: had been very blunt was Sarah about trading off on
Speaker 7: her looks, because I knew that that was a pattern
Speaker 7: when she lived with us and had continued to be
Speaker 7: a pattern. And so I said, is she living here?
Speaker 7: And nobody knew. I didn't have a phone number, for
Speaker 7: by this time, we're all using cell phones, and it's
Speaker 7: not like you could go look somebody up in the elephant,
Speaker 7: you know, white pages. So I prayed that morning in
Speaker 7: the shower, God, you know stairs here, let me run
Speaker 7: into her, which is just kind of a ridiculous prayer
Speaker 7: on some level, but it's just, you know, the way
Speaker 7: I operate my life sometimes. And so that afternoon we
Speaker 7: were out for a walk in bend Orgon and literally
Speaker 7: two blocks from my daughter's house, there is this girl
Speaker 7: in these high hills, which is an unusual site in Bendorgon.
Speaker 7: This was kind of a it's an outdoors areas most
Speaker 7: people have on sneakers or sandals, so to see a
Speaker 7: woman in high hills at ben Doregon was incongruent. So
Speaker 7: I know her. I know her high hills before I
Speaker 7: noticed her, and I walked up and it was my
Speaker 7: daughter saw her first, and she goes, Mom, it's Sarah,
Speaker 7: and I'm like, you're kidding now, it was her, and
Speaker 7: we ran into each other. She was there with a
Speaker 7: relator looking at this house around the corner from my
Speaker 7: daughter's house, and we hagged and she was very effusive
Speaker 7: and said to the religor excuse me, but this is
Speaker 7: my family, because that's how she considered us, and I,
Speaker 7: you know, we made plans to meet at my daughter's
Speaker 7: house when she was done with her business. She came
Speaker 7: up not very long afterwards. We're seeing around talking and
Speaker 7: my husband said that he could tell something was wrung
Speaker 7: right away, but I didn't. I couldn't, you know. I
Speaker 7: was just so happy to see her and to kind
Speaker 7: of restore that brokenness that had happened between us, because
Speaker 7: I'm not the kind of person that goes for years
Speaker 7: without speaking to my friends. I stay in touch with
Speaker 7: lots of people, and so I was just chatting to
Speaker 7: tell me what she was doing. We talked about all
Speaker 7: the kids and about my dad. You know, this memoir
Speaker 7: about my dad published and so my you know, in
Speaker 7: my head, I'm figuring out how old Carly is, and
Speaker 7: I'm thinking, okay, she would be you know, at this
Speaker 7: point she would be five, so she would be in school.
Speaker 7: So I said, I made the assumption that Carly was
Speaker 7: living with David and going to school in Queer Valence.
Speaker 7: And so I said, just Sarah something along that line
Speaker 7: as Carly with her dad, and the whole like this
Speaker 7: silence just fell over the room like it was I
Speaker 7: can still just you know, it's so real to me still,
Speaker 7: that kind of silence I've only encountered one other time,
Speaker 7: and that was when my dad died. And Sarah said,
Speaker 7: she started twisting her hair, which I knew was a
Speaker 7: nervous tick of hers, and she said, Carly is dead
Speaker 7: and I'm having a very hard day, so I don't
Speaker 7: want to talk about it. Wow, you know, I just
Speaker 7: I just looked at him, and he looked at me.
Speaker 7: And the thing is, I had been traveling around the
Speaker 7: country with a photographer from New York. We were interviewing
Speaker 7: a lot of gold Star families at that time. These
Speaker 7: are women and children who had lost loved ones in
Speaker 7: Iraq and Afghanistan by two thousand and seven. And I
Speaker 7: just come off that gig. So when a gold Star
Speaker 7: wife says to me she can't talk, I know to
Speaker 7: respect that. So I allowed Sarah that same respect that
Speaker 7: whatever happened she did not want to talk about right then,
Speaker 7: and that was okay. I would give her that space.
Speaker 7: I had no idea what it happened. I didn't know
Speaker 7: if Carly had died of a brain tumor you know,
Speaker 7: childhood lukem Yord been killed in a car wreck. I
Speaker 7: had no idea. We made plans to go out to
Speaker 7: dinner that night. We went out to dinner, and we
Speaker 7: had a good time, and everything was just restorative. Really,
Speaker 7: it was just like it had always been. She was
Speaker 7: part of our family and we loved her. But that night,
Speaker 7: after dinner, I said to you know, my daughter, and
Speaker 7: then to my husband, whatever has happened to Carly. She
Speaker 7: feels guilty about it, and I, you know, it's got
Speaker 7: a different kind of guilt that you are since that
Speaker 7: you have. Maybe through my years of reporting, I could
Speaker 7: tell the difference between something that happened where a parent
Speaker 7: wasn't responsible versus where a parent felt that they were responsible.
Speaker 7: And I could tell that Sarah felt that responsibility. The
Speaker 7: next morning she called me. We made plans to get
Speaker 7: together again. I apologized to her and told her I
Speaker 7: was sorry I had not been there with her through
Speaker 7: that time of losing Carly. I felt horrible about that.
Speaker 7: We get in the car, my husband and I are
Speaker 7: driving home. It's a long drive. We didn't have iPhones
Speaker 7: at that point. But I said to my husband, whatever
Speaker 7: happened to Carly? I don't know that Sarah feels bad
Speaker 7: about this. It's like she thinks it's her fault. And
Speaker 7: in my mind, what I'm thinking is that she has
Speaker 7: been on her phone or she had been in some
Speaker 7: sort of car wreck and that had caused Carly's death.
Speaker 7: And my husband said, that's not what happened. And I said, well,
Speaker 7: how do you know what happened? He said, because Stephen
Speaker 7: looked it up last night. And I said, well what happened?
Speaker 7: And he said, you don't want to know. And I said, Tim,
Speaker 7: you have to tell me what happened. I'm a jernalist.
Speaker 7: As soon as I get home, I'm going to google
Speaker 7: this myself. So tell me what happened. And he just
Speaker 7: really was reluctant and took him a few minutes, and
Speaker 7: he said, Carly's boyfriend tortured and murder Carly, or Sarah's
Speaker 7: boyfriend torture to murdered Carly. I literally couldn't breathe when
Speaker 7: he told me. I just I was physically ill at
Speaker 7: that moment. I just felt like all the air had
Speaker 7: been sucked out of me. I could I just I
Speaker 7: couldn't get my mind around it. I was shocked, absolutely shocked,
Speaker 7: walked by it, and then we had that four and
Speaker 7: a half hour drive home. I did not google it.
Speaker 7: I didn't google it for months. But what I did
Speaker 7: do was I called David right away because, as I
Speaker 7: could sing, this murder had happened in two thousand and five. Well,
Speaker 7: two thousand and five was the year the memoir and
Speaker 7: my Dad came out. And I had only been home
Speaker 7: six weeks out of that whole year because I was
Speaker 7: traveling and speaking so much about Warren It's impact on
Speaker 7: children and families. So I hadn't seen the news. And
Speaker 7: my kids had seen it, but they had put it
Speaker 7: together like they had seen, you know, that a child
Speaker 7: had been killed, but you know, they just had not
Speaker 7: put it all together. And so I called David first
Speaker 7: thing and said I want to come see you. We
Speaker 7: made I literally got in the car and droped down
Speaker 7: there the next day and uh David, I met per
Speaker 7: coffee and I told him, then I will write the
Speaker 7: story if you give your blot saints and he did,
Speaker 7: and I wrote the story of what happened to Carly?
Speaker 7: What of our things?
Speaker 2: I mean?
Speaker 7: I thought writing about the story of my dad's death
Speaker 7: in Vietnam would be the hardest story I would ever
Speaker 7: write in my life, but Carly topped it.
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Speaker 7: Now.
Speaker 8: You had this heart wrenching conversation with David. You hadn't
Speaker 8: even heard the news, You had missed the trial. You
Speaker 8: wanted now his permission to write this book, and being
Speaker 8: a journalist and being so involved in this, and we
Speaker 8: will talk about it a little bit later. You got
Speaker 8: an incredible break from somebody unusually. It was an unusual
Speaker 8: break to get information from a defense attorney. So we'll
Speaker 8: talk about that when you think it's appropriate about that
Speaker 8: information that you gained from that and how unusual that is.
Speaker 8: So how did you once you knew that there was
Speaker 8: this murder? And again you said you didn't even look online,
Speaker 8: google anything for a few months. How did you first
Speaker 8: start to undergo to do this book? The research necessary?
Speaker 7: So I threw an interview with David. What had happened,
Speaker 7: you know, just the very basics. When did the wind? Why? How?
Speaker 7: What had happened? I had learned that David had literally
Speaker 7: been Curly's caretaker for the bulk of her life, so
Speaker 7: divorce was not a big dale to him. By that
Speaker 7: time the divorce came around, he was so exhaust said
Speaker 7: was Sarah, that he was happy to be shunned of
Speaker 7: her because Sarah, as I would come to learn through
Speaker 7: my research and my own you know, memories of her
Speaker 7: was a narcissist, and that narcissism can just be exhausting
Speaker 7: to deal with senna gambling habit. She had a lot
Speaker 7: of problems, but David had been Carly's primary caretaker, so
Speaker 7: I had not That's why when I was there just
Speaker 7: you know, a few weeks after her birth, David was
Speaker 7: the one there and Sarah was gone from infancy. From
Speaker 7: as I would learn from the medical records, from even
Speaker 7: the very first hours after she was born, a nurse
Speaker 7: made notes in the medical records that Sarah was an
Speaker 7: interested in Carly, that David was the primary caregiverer even
Speaker 7: at the hospital, right, so the you know, after talking
Speaker 7: with David, the first place I went to was the
Speaker 7: Bent County Courthouse and pulled as many records. I you know,
Speaker 7: I'd been a cop reporter, so I knew how to
Speaker 7: pull records. I went and pulled all the records I
Speaker 7: could get through the county clerk, who when she handed
Speaker 7: over you know, when we got to the document stage,
Speaker 7: she even she pulled me aside and said, listen, because
Speaker 7: you know this family, because you know this child. I'm
Speaker 7: just warning you that when you get to the picture
Speaker 7: phase of this you need to be very careful about
Speaker 7: what you look at because of your her own emotional health,
Speaker 7: and so I went I just did the basic footwork.
Speaker 7: I did not contact the reporter of the newspaper who
Speaker 7: had covered this story because I did not want my
Speaker 7: writing and my research to be tainted by those stories
Speaker 7: in the paper. I wanted to get my own research,
Speaker 7: so I started calling all of the parties involved, the
Speaker 7: police officers who had responded to phone calls, the DHS worker,
Speaker 7: the daycare provider, the prosecutor in the case, the defense
Speaker 7: attorney in the case. And I had been a cop
Speaker 7: reporter or so I already had a pretty good working
Speaker 7: relationship in the state with Oregon State Police, the lieutenant
Speaker 7: and Pendleton was a good friend of mine socially because
Speaker 7: our kids dated. Pendleton's a small town, so we knew
Speaker 7: each other. And I had good working relationships with both
Speaker 7: defense and prosecutors in New Mantila County. So it was
Speaker 7: actually one of the defense attorneys in New Mantila County
Speaker 7: that had said to me when he knew what I
Speaker 7: was working on, listen, if anybody needs a reference, have
Speaker 7: him call me. He was one of the most well
Speaker 7: respected defense attorneys in the state. So that's what I did, is,
Speaker 7: you know, I would just go in and introduce myself
Speaker 7: and say, if you need a reference, here's some people
Speaker 7: you can call. I did that with the defense attorney
Speaker 7: in this particular case.
Speaker 6: And.
Speaker 7: He did call, and the next time I visited with him,
Speaker 7: he turned over all of his files to me everything.
Speaker 7: I was shocked. Yeah, I mean, you know that just
Speaker 7: defense attorneys don't do that sort of thing.
Speaker 8: Oh, no, they don't.
Speaker 7: So of course, I mean you're talking six thousand pages
Speaker 7: of documents. Because the trial was that long and that complicated.
Speaker 7: There had been three DHS state investigations into possible child
Speaker 7: abuse filed by Carly's staycare provider, who was did all
Speaker 7: the right things. I can't. I mean, I often hear
Speaker 7: from readers about how many people messed up, and they're
Speaker 7: there's plenty of reason for readers to think that, But
Speaker 7: I think it's important to note that of all the
Speaker 7: people involved, the daycare provider did everything within her power
Speaker 7: to protect Carly. She did all the right things.
Speaker 8: She was I would say, over and beyond, over and
Speaker 8: beyond the duty because other people were doing and in retrospect,
Speaker 8: after you spoke to him. They were concerned, but this
Speaker 8: person really took that extra effort. Tell us about those
Speaker 8: DHS investigations. You say this Delean Zolor was instrumental in
Speaker 8: getting the ball rolling. And you know, amazingly when you
Speaker 8: read about the not the indifference, but sort of that,
Speaker 8: people aren't getting they're hearing Sarah's side of the story.
Speaker 8: So tell us about this investigation prompted by this health
Speaker 8: care provider. De Lean his allor.
Speaker 7: Yeah, So what happened was in Augo, sev two thousand
Speaker 7: and four, David had taken Curly and gone Tireland where
Speaker 7: his parents lived. He was not a US citizen at
Speaker 7: the time. That needs to be noted. David was in
Speaker 7: Corvallis working for Hewitt Packard, you know, the computer company.
Speaker 7: He was an engineer, and he did not He was
Speaker 7: here on a work visa. H like I mean, you know,
Speaker 7: they had tons of Irish people. David wasn't the only one.
Speaker 7: There are like two hundred some they brought in to
Speaker 7: work on those projects. But David had not become a
Speaker 7: United States citizen at that point. He is a citizen now,
Speaker 7: but he wasn't then, and so that comes into play
Speaker 7: in those stories. David, Carly goes Ireland. They have a
Speaker 7: wonderful trip. During that trip, Carly's just vibrant and fun
Speaker 7: and sweet and all of the things that make up
Speaker 7: who Carly was. When they came back from Ireland, David
Speaker 7: and Sarah had agreed to a shared custody at least
Speaker 7: eighty percent of the time. David kept Carly anyway, because
Speaker 7: Sarah didn't. She was too busy. She wanted to go
Speaker 7: out with her girlfriends, she wanted to golf, she wanted
Speaker 7: to party. So they had this arrangements, you know, as
Speaker 7: part of the divorce proceedings that they had agreed to.
Speaker 7: I've shared custody. Sarah would have her so many days.
Speaker 7: David would have her so many days. Most of the time,
Speaker 7: David had her up until September of two thousand. For
Speaker 7: Sarah met a man by the name of Sean Field.
Speaker 7: Shaun Field was a local Corbalacet boy. His dad worked
Speaker 7: for Hewitt Packard. He had had a thirty year career
Speaker 7: with Ewitt Packard, and his mom was stay at home mom.
Speaker 7: Sean had lived on the north side of town, in
Speaker 7: the more upper class section near the golf course. He
Speaker 7: came from a well to do family. They owned Shones
Speaker 7: and her Valas and in central Oregon and in Arizona.
Speaker 7: Sewan has had an older brother who died of a
Speaker 7: heroin overdose several years before. Sarah mount Shawn at a
Speaker 7: place where she worked. She worked at a pizza company
Speaker 7: and bar, and she mostly worked the bar, and they
Speaker 7: had met and within two weeks of meeting had moved
Speaker 7: in together. Now during those times, Sarah kept her own apartment.
Speaker 7: Throughout all of this, Sarah kept her own apartment, so
Speaker 7: it was never a situation where financially she needed to
Speaker 7: depend upon shot. Sarah had came from an upper middle
Speaker 7: class family. Herself and her parents often paid for things
Speaker 7: and provided for her. David had helped provide for her,
Speaker 7: offering even to send her back to college, because in
Speaker 7: David's mind, a well educated mother makes for a better mom.
Speaker 7: So there, I can't stress enough because in times, the
Speaker 7: perception is that child abuse happened to poor women who
Speaker 7: find themselves financially dependent upon the abuse of men. That
Speaker 7: was not this case, And oddly enough, the fact that
Speaker 7: it wasn't played against the investigation because it didn't fit
Speaker 7: the stereotime. Within two weeks of Carly at being home
Speaker 7: and now Sarah has This is mid September, and she
Speaker 7: has introduced her daughter to a man she barely knows.
Speaker 7: He has told her that he's got several master's degrees,
Speaker 7: that he you know, works all these different jobs and
Speaker 7: yet he never really works.
Speaker 6: And so.
Speaker 7: With it. So this is mid October. She's moved in
Speaker 7: with him by mid I mean mid September. By mid October,
Speaker 7: Sarah is writing false diary entries that would later come
Speaker 7: out in court. And these false diary entries are things
Speaker 7: where she's accusing David of abuse using words that she are,
Speaker 7: stories that she's made up that she's attributing to Carly.
Speaker 7: It's just, you know, a bizarre thing to have done,
Speaker 7: that you would write these diary entries accusing your husband
Speaker 7: of abuse that's never even taken place. But Carly. During
Speaker 7: this time period, that four weeks time period, Dlynne Zolar,
Speaker 7: her daycare provider, starts noticing changes in Carly's appearance and
Speaker 7: her demeanor she comes to daycare. She's more tired than normal,
Speaker 7: she seems depressed, doesn't want to engage, isn't her light
Speaker 7: lively self? She has odd bruising and her hair seems
Speaker 7: to be sinny, and Carly had beautiful blonde sohead hair,
Speaker 7: but it was never like really sick to begin with,
Speaker 7: but now it's stanny. And so one day Dylanne is
Speaker 7: talking to Carly about some scratches that she sees, and
Speaker 7: Carly says, my daddy did this, And d Lynne's like, what,
Speaker 7: she knew that David would not be that person to
Speaker 7: do this kind of thing, and she said, my daddy
Speaker 7: hits me, my daddy pulls my hair. And to Lynne,
Speaker 7: you know, she does the appropriate things. She contacts DHS,
Speaker 7: the States Offices of Abuse, she calls the Abuse Outline
Speaker 7: Number reports it. David and Sarah are ordered to meet
Speaker 7: with the pediatricians. Now, the thing about it is that
Speaker 7: Carly's doctor also happened to be Sarah's primary care doctor.
Speaker 7: So this is you know, this is a doctor Sarah
Speaker 7: saw when she was pregnant with Carly, and so she's
Speaker 7: already got an established relationship with this doctor. It never
Speaker 7: occurs to the doctor. Because here's where the things that
Speaker 7: came into play, Right, Why would a mother lie about
Speaker 7: those source of troublesome signs on her daughter? Why would
Speaker 7: an educated, beautiful, smart intelligent woman, why about such things?
Speaker 7: It just never entered her mind that Sarah would be
Speaker 7: lying about Carly's welfare. Why would any mother do that?
Speaker 7: So DHS looks into those early on in October, comes
Speaker 7: back with the ruling in November and says that there's, uh,
Speaker 7: it's inconclusive that they can find those signs of abuse.
Speaker 7: That maybe, you know, Carly's got some health issues. So
Speaker 7: the doctor's running all of these tests looking for health issues.
Speaker 7: There is a disorder that children can get where they
Speaker 7: tear out their own hair. Sarah learns this, and she
Speaker 7: begins repeating them, saying that Carly is doing those to
Speaker 7: her herself, right and all the while the abuse is
Speaker 7: continuing all the while and Carly. I asked the doctor
Speaker 7: during the course of this investigation, why did Carly never
Speaker 7: tell anybody what was happening? And she said children don't
Speaker 7: tell because they love their mother. And that just kind
Speaker 7: of blew me away to think about it. Part of
Speaker 7: writing Carly's story is to talk about how the court
Speaker 7: system and the law enforcement system is bringing its own
Speaker 7: biases to bear in that we assume that moms are
Speaker 7: the better caretakers and the least likely to abuse children,
Speaker 7: and that is just statistically not held up. And in fact,
Speaker 7: mothers acting alone are more likely to abuse their own
Speaker 7: children than fathers than boyfriends, and that just goes against
Speaker 7: everything all of us to have assumed and believed. The fact.
Speaker 8: You also talk about that that bias leads to a
Speaker 8: neglect of proper normal procedure. When we talked later about us,
Speaker 8: you know, people being questioned apart from each other. And
Speaker 8: a crucial moment is when you have this, Officer Cox,
Speaker 8: maybe you can tell us about this incident because this
Speaker 8: is important to this investigation, you say, and derailing it
Speaker 8: quite a while.
Speaker 7: So this becomes the most critical derail moment for me
Speaker 7: and I think for all of us in that among
Speaker 7: a whole host of critical derailments. But Officer So, one day,
Speaker 7: Sarah and David hannah pattern of making an exchange on
Speaker 7: Saturdays with Curly at the local Starbucks, kind of a
Speaker 7: halfway meeting point for the both of them. One day,
Speaker 7: Sarah contacts David and says, Carly is not feeling well.
Speaker 7: This is early December. Now Carly is not feeling well,
Speaker 7: so can I bring her to your house today instead
Speaker 7: of meeting you at Starbucks David's thinking Carly has a flu,
Speaker 7: and so David says, sure, you know, fine, bring her by.
Speaker 7: Sarah shows up with Carly. Carly is completely bald, she
Speaker 7: has no hair at this point. She has bruce marks
Speaker 7: all along the side of her head. Fingerprint bruce marks
Speaker 7: all along her head. She looked. I've got pictures of her,
Speaker 7: you can find them online. She look like a chemo patient.
Speaker 7: When Sarah opened. When David opens the door and he
Speaker 7: sees Carly, he's incomplete and utters shock and of course outrage,
Speaker 7: and he just says, there, what the hell has happened here?
Speaker 7: And Sarah said, this is on me, and that's all
Speaker 7: she said, and she leaves. Well, David's concern immediately turns
Speaker 7: to Carly. But now he's in a situation where, number one,
Speaker 7: he's not a US citizen. Number two, he's just had
Speaker 7: a DHS investigation in which, you know, Carly has told
Speaker 7: her or at least you know, the report from Dylann
Speaker 7: is that Carly had told her that her daddy had
Speaker 7: been abusing her. Now he's got this child that absolutely
Speaker 7: has been abused. There's no question in his mind she's
Speaker 7: been abused. But nobody's seen the exchange take place. So
Speaker 7: how do you call the cops and tell them.
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Speaker 7: You don't know for sure exactly what's happened, And the
Speaker 7: minute you call the cops, they're going to figure you
Speaker 7: for this because as Sarah can just say that you
Speaker 7: pat her, Who's it's going to be your word against
Speaker 7: Sarah's At those points, right, David didn't know what to do,
Speaker 7: and of course he didn't want to do anything that
Speaker 7: would be them taking Carly away from him that day
Speaker 7: because she needed her daddy at that point is the
Speaker 7: catch twenty two. So what he did do was go
Speaker 7: to a neighbor's house, a good friend of his, to say,
Speaker 7: you know, to ask what should I do. This was
Speaker 7: a married couple that had been friends with him and Sarah,
Speaker 7: who knew Sarah very well. And what he didn't know
Speaker 7: is that she was having a baby shower that day
Speaker 7: for a friend of her and among that crowd was
Speaker 7: a teacher, and teachers are mandatory reporters. When tho those
Speaker 7: women saw that baby in that condition, that mandatory reporter
Speaker 7: called the Corvellis police and reported it. Carly didn't let debt.
Speaker 7: Her dad sent her down all day long, even to
Speaker 7: go to the bathroom was a problem for him, not Carly,
Speaker 7: because she just didn't want to let cover dad. He
Speaker 7: finally gets her to bed eleven o'clock at night. Here
Speaker 7: comes this officer from Corvelli's police department beating on the door,
Speaker 7: demanding to see Carly, whom David has just recently gotten
Speaker 7: to bed. He goes Cox, goes in there with a flashlight,
Speaker 7: pulls the covers back completely, shucks an already traumatized girl,
Speaker 7: accuses David of this abuse, leaves there and goes to
Speaker 7: see Sean and Sarah and interviews them together separately, then
Speaker 7: writes a very cursory report, again pointing fingers. Said David
Speaker 7: along terms a female cop who has been reading all
Speaker 7: the headlines about Catholic sex abuse that's been reported in
Speaker 7: the Portland papers at the time, and David is a
Speaker 7: devoted Catholic, and this female cop and this DHS worker
Speaker 7: from that point on start pointing everything at David, and
Speaker 7: of course Sarah leads them to continue to think that.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's an incredible turn of events. It's also you
Speaker 8: say that David suffered some naivety a while too, because
Speaker 8: instead of what she was doing was subtly accusing him
Speaker 8: that he was defending her to a great degree and
Speaker 8: thinking even that he had no evidence. He was very,
Speaker 8: like you say, diplomatic. He didn't think that Sean Field,
Speaker 8: he had no evidence that he was doing anything, and
Speaker 8: he just really didn't want to believe Sarah could do
Speaker 8: anything to her own child, did he?
Speaker 7: Yeah he could, he really, David is he operates from
Speaker 7: a different perspective. Number one. His biggest fear was he
Speaker 7: was going to be deported and never to see Carly again.
Speaker 7: I mean that undergirded everything he thought about. I'm not
Speaker 7: a US citizen. I don't know the US court system.
Speaker 7: I don't know how all this works. Sarah's accusing me
Speaker 7: of this. I could be deported, I could lose my job,
Speaker 7: I could lose all contact with Carly. He was terrified
Speaker 7: of that. I can't stress that enough. Did he make
Speaker 7: all the right decisions? David would tell you, first of all,
Speaker 7: like Curly's dead, Like there's so many things he would
Speaker 7: have done differently now, but he didn't know. You know,
Speaker 7: it's easy for any of us to go back and judge,
Speaker 7: in hindsight, what way we do differently to stop the
Speaker 7: death of a loved one? Right, if we could do that,
Speaker 7: David believed in this system. David believed that if they
Speaker 7: did their investigation the right way, that they would find
Speaker 7: the proof. He believed in his heart that Sean was
Speaker 7: abusing Carly. He interrogated Carly over and over again. Carly
Speaker 7: would never say that Sean was abusing her. She never
Speaker 7: said that. And when you ask professionals why children don't tell, well,
Speaker 7: I mean, this is why the bulk of child abuse
Speaker 7: takes place four children ages four and under, because they
Speaker 7: can be controlled. A lot of them aren't articulate. They
Speaker 7: are afraid. We don't know what kind of things Sean
Speaker 7: said to Carly to keep her quiet. We don't know
Speaker 7: what threats he made. Did he tell her that he
Speaker 7: would kill her daddy if she's said anything? She never said,
Speaker 7: And David asked over and over again. That made him
Speaker 7: second guess everything, because Carly was articulate, She was a
Speaker 7: bright girl, She had full sentence structures. She could have
Speaker 7: put it together, but she would And he never could
Speaker 7: quite grasp why if this man is hurting her, why
Speaker 7: she's not saying that. But like I said, we don't
Speaker 7: know the threats that Sean made to Carly that she believed.
Speaker 7: So David trusted the system in a way that he
Speaker 7: should He knows now he should never have trusted. He
Speaker 7: didn't understand the internal biases. He couldn't. He's such a
Speaker 7: good guy that he couldn't believe that anybody would actually
Speaker 7: think he would abuse his own daughter, right, Like, this
Speaker 7: was his life. So the concept that anybody thought he
Speaker 7: was guilty of hurting the one thing he lived and
Speaker 7: breathed for was just so foreign to him. And then
Speaker 7: you know, he had been married to Sarah. He loved her.
Speaker 7: He wanted to believe that she would not put her
Speaker 7: daughter in a situation to be harmed. It was a
Speaker 7: very confusing time for him. He just didn't he didn't
Speaker 7: appreciate the forces working against him. He had some sense
Speaker 7: of it through the DHS investigator and through the female
Speaker 7: cop Karen I can't think of her last name right now,
Speaker 7: daughter the slaughter I don't name right anyway, So he
Speaker 7: just he had some sense of it because Stoddard was
Speaker 7: so aggressive in her approach to him, and but that
Speaker 7: just you know, if it were me, as someone came
Speaker 7: at me like that, I would push back. And I'm
Speaker 7: a US citizen, so I don't live with the fear
Speaker 7: being deported.
Speaker 8: Let's talk about how in these meetings and these DHS
Speaker 8: meetings is because we probably won't have time to go
Speaker 8: through there's so much more to this book and to
Speaker 8: the trial and to but let's talk about her culpability
Speaker 8: because we can just say that she was never charged
Speaker 8: with anything. But in all the research she did, you
Speaker 8: talk about some very very disturbing things, like the living
Speaker 8: arrangement you said you talked about she always maintained her
Speaker 8: apartment with her friend Shelley. But at the same time,
Speaker 8: she had said in these DH meetings that she had
Speaker 8: just moved to this apartment with Sean Field. And from
Speaker 8: that point they attributed Carly's strange behavior pulling out her
Speaker 8: hair or hitting herself. They said that she hit herself
Speaker 8: all self inflicted with right, But one of the crucial
Speaker 8: things to gain trust with the doctor Desosa and to
Speaker 8: and with everyone was the promise that she was going
Speaker 8: to move out. Tell us about this promise and tell
Speaker 8: us about the reality.
Speaker 7: So after the third investment or the second investigation with THHS,
Speaker 7: which again was real unfounded, right, Like, they knew she
Speaker 7: was being abused, but they couldn't point who was doing
Speaker 7: the abuse. Or maybe she wasn't being abused, Maybe she
Speaker 7: was just upset by her mom's new boyfriend and so
Speaker 7: she's pulling out her own hair and she's harming herself.
Speaker 7: I mean, the finding itself is unbelievable. When you see
Speaker 7: the pictures, you're like, well, everybody were said he had
Speaker 7: just as stupid if they think a child could do
Speaker 7: those to themselves at age three. So uh yeah, so
Speaker 7: Sarah has lied, Like that's why I bring up the
Speaker 7: diary in October. Sarah started lying against David as early
Speaker 7: as four weeks after moving in was shot, and so
Speaker 7: she makes some of those diary entries from that point on.
Speaker 7: There is this whole pattern of line. Every step of
Speaker 7: the way she lied to protect herself and to protect Sean.
Speaker 7: She never wants lied in favor of protecting Carly, not once.
Speaker 7: When I went to the prosecutor and asked, you know,
Speaker 7: the big county prosecutor, why did you not charge Sarah.
Speaker 7: I mean, there's so much evidence that she was complicit
Speaker 7: in the depths of her own daughter. Why in the
Speaker 7: world did you not charge her with anything? Neglect, abuse, anything?
Speaker 7: And he said that he thought that she had suffered enough.
Speaker 7: It was in that moment that I knew. I already
Speaker 7: knew that the courts were slanted toward mothers to begin with,
Speaker 7: But when he said I thought that Sarah had suffered enough,
Speaker 7: I knew that he had made that decision in a
Speaker 7: hate moment of haste to get the goods on Seanfield, which,
Speaker 7: by the way, Sarah never really gave up. The goods
Speaker 7: on Seanfield came from a good investigation post mortem, you know,
Speaker 7: not prior. It came later Sean Field maintained up and
Speaker 7: then forever that he had was not involved in this.
Speaker 7: There's a time lapse even when Carly is found dead,
Speaker 7: and how long had Fair been home before that nine
Speaker 7: to one one call had been played? Right, So I'm
Speaker 7: distilled to this day undecided on whether she contributed physically
Speaker 7: to the abuse of her own daughter. She certainly contributed
Speaker 7: in a complicit way to the abuse of her own daughter.
Speaker 7: She had DHS and said, look, we don't know whether
Speaker 7: your daughter is being abused or not, but she's clearly
Speaker 7: if she's not being abused and she's doing this for herself,
Speaker 7: then you need to quit being with this boyfriend because
Speaker 7: it's not healthy for your daughter. And Sarah agreed to
Speaker 7: that again, lied to do that. She didn't. She never
Speaker 7: quit seeing Seanfield through all of them, she never quit
Speaker 7: seeing him. And so there was a time period where
Speaker 7: she quit taking Carly around him for about two months,
Speaker 7: but by Easter of two thousand five she was taking
Speaker 7: Carly around Schonfield again. And she claims that she had
Speaker 7: broken up with Seanfield. And again, you know, initially one
Speaker 7: of the prosecunion he had wanted me Joan Demerost had
Speaker 7: wanted me to believe that Sarah was that Sean was
Speaker 7: abusive of Sarah. There's no evidence anywhere that Sean was
Speaker 7: ever abusive of Sarah.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 7: Sarah was not a domestic abuse situation. She had her
Speaker 7: own apartment, she had her own money, She had parents
Speaker 7: who are willing to help her, She had friends willing
Speaker 7: to help her. She had David willing to help her
Speaker 7: at the drop of a hat. She never was in
Speaker 7: a situation where she had no other option but to
Speaker 7: leave Carly. Was Sean, She never had that. Sarah willingly
Speaker 7: and at every point, over and over again, put her
Speaker 7: daughter in harm's way without regard for Carly's life.
Speaker 8: Let's talk about that blatant disregard the whole thing with
Speaker 8: the parking lot. It is despicable. It is I don't
Speaker 8: even it's deplorable. But let's talk about June second again,
Speaker 8: the woman that's not supposed to have her daughter alone
Speaker 8: with this Sean. She has been through these investigations. She
Speaker 8: wants to break up with him because she discovers gay
Speaker 8: porn on his computer. Like you say, she's not certainly
Speaker 8: not a battered woman. He's not in control of her.
Speaker 8: But tell us about the water, the water bill and
Speaker 8: the anger and her bar work that evening and when
Speaker 8: she actually came home after that shift tell us all
Speaker 8: about June second.
Speaker 7: So June second, two thousand and five, a few weeks prior,
Speaker 7: Sarah had come across gay porn on shawn computer. And
Speaker 7: it wasn't just a matter of gay porn. She came
Speaker 7: across emails as well that showed that Sean was having
Speaker 7: sexual relations with men in core balance. One of those
Speaker 7: happened to be a prominent university employee. And so when
Speaker 7: she came across that gay porn, she and Sean had
Speaker 7: a huge fight. I think that Sean, you know, if
Speaker 7: I had to guess, I would have to say that
Speaker 7: he was by sexual, but he came from a fundamental's home.
Speaker 7: If his parents had thought for a moment that he
Speaker 7: was by or gay, his parents would have disinherited him.
Speaker 7: And not having access to his parents' money was a
Speaker 7: huge motivating factor for Sewan because as the soul surviving child,
Speaker 7: he and he would inherit everything as parents had, and
Speaker 7: it was sizeable. And so he said to Sara at
Speaker 7: that point they had a big blow up fight and
Speaker 7: he said, you ruined everything. She took Carly and left
Speaker 7: and went back to her own apartment and did not
Speaker 7: have anything to do with him for a couple of weeks.
Speaker 7: That's where she tells the investigators she literally finally broke
Speaker 7: up with Sean. But on June's second, she's back over
Speaker 7: at Sean's and she has to work and she needs
Speaker 7: a ride, and he's yelling at her about you know,
Speaker 7: the water bill. Apparently they shared you know, the bills
Speaker 7: at his place too, and he had given her the money.
Speaker 7: I can't remember exactly how that went. He had given
Speaker 7: her the money to pay the water bill and she
Speaker 7: had not paid it, and they had cut out the
Speaker 7: water or threatened to cut off the water, and so
Speaker 7: she had gone down to the city to pay the bill,
Speaker 7: and that had not gone well. And there was just
Speaker 7: a lot of chaos over that water bill. And yet
Speaker 7: even in the midst of all that, Sarah had to
Speaker 7: work a shift that evening, and instead of calling anybody else,
Speaker 7: she knew that Sean Field was furious at her over
Speaker 7: that water bill. And yet she left Carly Sean that
Speaker 7: night and she went to work. And I mean, it
Speaker 7: was just a stupid waitressing job. It was than anything
Speaker 7: where Sarah needed to work, had to work, was in
Speaker 7: a situation where she couldn't have said, I'm calling in,
Speaker 7: I'm not going in tonight because i want to be
Speaker 7: with my daughter and I'm not about to leave her
Speaker 7: in your care when you're this angry at me. There
Speaker 7: was none of that.
Speaker 5: It was.
Speaker 7: It's you know, David up in Portland. So I'm taking
Speaker 7: Carly and leaving her with Sean, this man that I
Speaker 7: have been fighting with for weeks now. She could have
Speaker 7: left her with Shelley would have been happy to take Carly,
Speaker 7: but no Sarah when and Carly is hysterical. She does
Speaker 7: not want to be left with Sean. She's terrified. She
Speaker 7: just doesn't want to be alone with him. And Sarah
Speaker 7: goes off to the pizza place in the bar and
Speaker 7: she's only supposed to be goun for like four hours,
Speaker 7: but she doesn't come home to well after midnight, And.
Speaker 5: Of the.
Speaker 7: Patrons at the bar that night testified later that he
Speaker 7: had met Sarah out in the parking lot and she'd
Speaker 7: given him a blowjob out in the parking lot. So
Speaker 7: she was not only working because she wanted to work,
Speaker 7: she was working because she was partying. And so she
Speaker 7: doesn't get home till late, and she doesn't check on
Speaker 7: Carly when she gets home. The next morning, when Carly
Speaker 7: gets up, she's complain of adache. These are the pictures
Speaker 7: the clerk advised me not to look at that I did.
Speaker 7: And in that picture you see that Carly has a
Speaker 7: ruptured eyeball. It is I mean, she looks like Muhammad
Speaker 7: Aille after a bad fight. Her eye is swollen, shut,
Speaker 7: completely ruptured, bloodied. There are bruises all over her feet.
Speaker 7: Sarah asked Sean what happened. Sean says that Carly was
Speaker 7: jumping off the bed, the bunk bed and heard herself.
Speaker 7: Sarah does not call for help. She has Carly called
Speaker 7: her dad and her David didn't answer the phone, and
Speaker 7: Carly leaves a message and tells him that she doesn't
Speaker 7: feel good that she misses him. Sarah calls her own
Speaker 7: father and says, Carly seems to have an eye allergy.
Speaker 7: There's no way in how that looks like an eye allergy.
Speaker 7: The eye is ruptured. Even if Carly had lived, she
Speaker 7: would have been blinded in that eye. The doctor testified
Speaker 7: to a gourd incredible, and Sarah leaves her again. She
Speaker 7: does not take her to the hospital, She does not
Speaker 7: call a friend, she does not seek medical help for
Speaker 7: her daughter. She in fact puts Carly in front of
Speaker 7: the TV with a handful of granola for breakfast, and
Speaker 7: she goes and has sex with Sean Field Sure, and
Speaker 7: then she leaves her daughter again to go work another
Speaker 7: shift at the pizza place. When she comes home, Carly's
Speaker 7: dead on the floor in the other room, or she
Speaker 7: comes home and there's a time lapse and in that
Speaker 7: time lapse, Curly dies. That's never really made clear.
Speaker 8: So there's finally a call to emergency services. And what
Speaker 8: do they find? Again, you had the unfortunate you took
Speaker 8: a look of sport. Unfortunately, what do you talk about
Speaker 8: the fire, fire responder and the police that come there,
Speaker 8: What do they see, what's obvious to them? What has happened?
Speaker 7: So Sarah makes the nine one one calls. She's beyond
Speaker 7: to circle. I've heard lots of nine one one calls.
Speaker 7: This particular nine one one call is is uh is
Speaker 7: different in its sheer intensity, and she's screaming that her
Speaker 7: daughter isn't breathing. Her daughter isn't breathing. According to Sarah's
Speaker 7: testimony in court. She comes home, she has Sean where
Speaker 7: Carly is, and he said she was laying down in
Speaker 7: the other room and not, you know, doing well. Sarah
Speaker 7: coozo in there and Carly isn't breathing, and so during
Speaker 7: this nine to one one call, they're telling her how
Speaker 7: to do CPR. Nobody ever did CPR, and Carly not
Speaker 7: till the mts arrived. When the MT's arrived, they knows
Speaker 7: Sarah because she is a party girl in town and
Speaker 7: they all she's beautiful, they've all had some of them
Speaker 7: have had relations with her, and so they know her
Speaker 7: and they make excuses for her right off the bat,
Speaker 7: not looking at her as a potential person involved in
Speaker 7: the murder of a child, but hey, that's our friend, Sarah.
Speaker 7: And Sean Field's response is he's concerned. He's taken all
Speaker 7: these chairs in the table and he's pushed them up
Speaker 7: against this closet door. Not concerned about Carly, not the
Speaker 7: fact that he has a dead child on the floor
Speaker 7: in its home, but concerned because he has a marijuana
Speaker 7: grow in the closet and he's worried that if the
Speaker 7: police come across the marijuana grow, he's going to be arrested.
Speaker 7: Not worried that he has a dead child on the
Speaker 7: floor that needs to be accounted for, and so the
Speaker 7: MP's get the baby to the hospital. David gets a
Speaker 7: phone call. He's at work in Portland. He gets a
Speaker 7: phone call, you know, saying something's happened to Carly. He
Speaker 7: needs to get to Corvallis right away. It's an hour
Speaker 7: and a half drive. He leaves work and heads back
Speaker 7: and he's calling the hospital to find out what happened,
Speaker 7: and the doctor tells him and a very ugly manner,
Speaker 7: that currently is dead. That's how he learns that that
Speaker 7: his daughter is dead. It is through a doctor who's angry.
Speaker 7: But he's angry because Sarah has told the doctor and
Speaker 7: the staff that David did.
Speaker 8: Yeah, you talk about after. I mean, we don't have
Speaker 8: enough time to go into probably the next part of
Speaker 8: this conversation. We'll probably talk for another an hour and
Speaker 8: a half about this. The investigation finally does clear David.
Speaker 8: It becomes obvious to them that David had nothing to
Speaker 8: do with this. There is a twenty six day trial.
Speaker 8: We can't go into all the heartbreaking stuff like the
Speaker 8: photo on the post mortem table table that was used
Speaker 8: when Sarah was on the stand and dramatic testimony, well
Speaker 8: not dramatic, but it's heartbreaking again for a ten year
Speaker 8: old Sean Field's daughter who lived in the home with
Speaker 8: them and knew Carly was forced to testify. So we
Speaker 8: don't have all that time to go into all of
Speaker 8: those things. Suffice to say that he was finally incarcerated,
Speaker 8: wasn't he?
Speaker 7: Yes, he was, all the while insisting that he did
Speaker 7: not do this. The tapes are clear, he maintains his innocence,
Speaker 7: He had nothing to do with this at all. And
Speaker 7: it isn't until after hours and hours of interrogation that
Speaker 7: he finally says, well, maybe Sarah did that. Maybe Sarah
Speaker 7: did it, and so what you you know, the the
Speaker 7: comps who dealt with this in the aftermath felt like,
Speaker 7: you know, you had two very narcissistic people. And there's
Speaker 7: an excellent book I recommend it to anyone, especially in
Speaker 7: today's world, to read, called The Narcissism Epidemic, which I
Speaker 7: did read during the investigation here. But this investigation, they
Speaker 7: just Sarah and Sean had a chemistry that was an
Speaker 7: uncommon chemistry and inexplicable in many ways, and it was
Speaker 7: like two cons trying to out con each other. Was
Speaker 7: how one of the cops put it to me, two
Speaker 7: cons trying to outcnt each other, and what they're bartering
Speaker 7: with as a little three year old girl in the process.
Speaker 7: And what the curly story reveals to it is that
Speaker 7: we have big misconceptions about how child abuse happens in
Speaker 7: our society. I had been so focused on war and
Speaker 7: its aftermath for so long because of my own childhood experiences.
Speaker 7: Then it never you know, during that time period, during
Speaker 7: that ten year time period that we'd been at war
Speaker 7: in Iraq in Afghanistan, we'd lost somewhere around sixty eight
Speaker 7: hundred soldiers, mothers and fathers. But if you went and
Speaker 7: lined up all of the kids who died of child
Speaker 7: abuse during that same ten year time period and laid
Speaker 7: them out in quilt covered caskets instead of flag draped
Speaker 7: ones here on us soil, we would have seen twenty
Speaker 7: thousand caskets. We lose fifteen hundred children a year to
Speaker 7: child's abuse in this nation, fifteen hundred that we know about.
Speaker 7: We lose five children a day. If Disneyland had to
Speaker 7: ride that lost five children a day, we would shut
Speaker 7: Disneyland down. The first day. But here in this country
Speaker 7: children are living in fear daily. These are just the
Speaker 7: children who die. I get letters weekly from people who
Speaker 7: live through this kind of horror. Thankfully they live, but
Speaker 7: they don't come away dscaped. I think a post traumatic
Speaker 7: stress disorder is something that soldiers live with, but in truth,
Speaker 7: children who've been abused live with it every single day,
Speaker 7: and there are more of them than there are soldiers
Speaker 7: who are dealing with it. That's how prevalent child abuse is.
Speaker 7: And the wealthier you are, the more educated you are,
Speaker 7: the higher you are up in society, the less likely
Speaker 7: your child is going to be believed when they do
Speaker 7: report the abuse, if they ever get around to it.
Speaker 8: I want to congratulate you on this book, Carly she
Speaker 8: and True Crime of Carly's Law. You really do talk
Speaker 8: about the pervasiveness of Sarah and con and it continues
Speaker 8: later in your book as well when we talk about
Speaker 8: Carly's Angels and her raising money conning people again for charity,
Speaker 8: protecting pretending she's a single mom. I want to thank
Speaker 8: you very much. Karen Spears Zacharies. Is there a Facebook
Speaker 8: page or a website that people might go to to
Speaker 8: take a look at further work or about this book.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, they can go to my website at
Speaker 7: Karenzach dot com'ss k r e n Zach dot com.
Speaker 7: You know, kudos to every town out there who has
Speaker 7: survived that so loved to tell. I mean, the work
Speaker 7: that they do in our society to raise good families
Speaker 7: and to be loving people, to heal their own hurts.
Speaker 7: It's it's amazing and overwhelming at times to think about him.
Speaker 7: And you know, I just encourage everyone to be more alert,
Speaker 7: to pay better attention, to think about her own biases,
Speaker 7: and to realize that moms are not always what we
Speaker 7: think they are. And you know, just because a woman
Speaker 7: is beautiful does not make her good hearted. It does not.
Speaker 7: That's not to put anyone down for being that, but
Speaker 7: in Sarah's case, her beauty was the thing that made
Speaker 7: her stumble.
Speaker 8: I want to thank you very much, Karen Spears Zachariice
Speaker 8: for Karly Sheehan truly an incredible book. Thank you for
Speaker 8: this interview. You have a great evening.
Speaker 7: Thank you, Dan, thank you for reading it.
Speaker 8: Thank you and for those two join me on Facebook
Speaker 8: for comments on my personal page. Thank you. Good night,