WEBVTT

1
00:00:01.919 --> 00:00:05.280
<v Speaker 1>What's going on? Everybody? Welcome to another episode of Adventures

2
00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:09.759
<v Speaker 1>and DevOps. I'm actually flying solo today. Warren and Jillian

3
00:00:09.880 --> 00:00:13.199
<v Speaker 1>both had conflicts and couldn't be here for the recording,

4
00:00:13.839 --> 00:00:17.760
<v Speaker 1>but I do have the CTO and co founder of

5
00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:22.280
<v Speaker 1>Cortexshta Ganesh. How are you doing?

6
00:00:22.280 --> 00:00:23.519
<v Speaker 2>Great? Load to hear?

7
00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:28.440
<v Speaker 1>Awesome man, looking forward to it. So Cortex is a

8
00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:34.000
<v Speaker 1>platform engineering tool, right, yes, we are an internal developmore

9
00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:38.439
<v Speaker 1>right on cool? So what decisions did you make in

10
00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:41.479
<v Speaker 1>your life that decided that you needed to create an

11
00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:42.960
<v Speaker 1>internal developer portal?

12
00:00:43.880 --> 00:00:49.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's it's pretty funny actually, So I actually

13
00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:51.000
<v Speaker 2>a lot of things. I think, let up this and

14
00:00:51.159 --> 00:00:52.920
<v Speaker 2>maybe a little bit of a ramble here. So I

15
00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:57.000
<v Speaker 2>went to I went to UC San Diego, and one

16
00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:00.240
<v Speaker 2>of my roommates in college introduced me to another friend

17
00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:03.039
<v Speaker 2>of his from high school who is now my co

18
00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:05.959
<v Speaker 2>founder and CEO, and another one is my co founder

19
00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:08.680
<v Speaker 2>in chief architect at Cortex. So didn't know these guys,

20
00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:12.439
<v Speaker 2>and I met him in met him in undergrad. I

21
00:01:12.519 --> 00:01:15.920
<v Speaker 2>graduated in my undergrad a year early, and I promise

22
00:01:15.959 --> 00:01:18.159
<v Speaker 2>this will be all relevant in just a few minutes.

23
00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:22.799
<v Speaker 2>I graduated undergrad a year early started working at lend Up,

24
00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:27.840
<v Speaker 2>and it just so happened to work out that they

25
00:01:27.879 --> 00:01:30.959
<v Speaker 2>were pulling the first service out of the monolith at

26
00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:32.359
<v Speaker 2>the time. So I got to join the team that's

27
00:01:32.359 --> 00:01:34.959
<v Speaker 2>pulling the first service in the monolith. So timing was impeccable.

28
00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:37.040
<v Speaker 2>If I joined the year later, if I graduated on time,

29
00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:39.480
<v Speaker 2>I would maybe have been on a different team. I

30
00:01:39.480 --> 00:01:42.200
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't have seen that experience. And so it worked out

31
00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:43.680
<v Speaker 2>that I was on this team as they were pulling

32
00:01:43.719 --> 00:01:47.439
<v Speaker 2>out the first the first service, and a lot of

33
00:01:47.480 --> 00:01:52.719
<v Speaker 2>the learnings that came from that ended up being I

34
00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:57.599
<v Speaker 2>guess really stemming from pain, like a lot of spreadsheets,

35
00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:00.480
<v Speaker 2>a lot of getting Paige at two am and it's

36
00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:03.120
<v Speaker 2>some Game of Thrones character that you have no idea

37
00:02:03.159 --> 00:02:05.400
<v Speaker 2>what this service does and you're like digging through confliments

38
00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:08.000
<v Speaker 2>and whatnot. And for its worth, like we'd invested quite

39
00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:09.680
<v Speaker 2>a bit in all the tooling and the infrastructure and

40
00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:12.120
<v Speaker 2>all the stuff, and so it was like generally pretty decent.

41
00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:14.840
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't even like we had, you know, ignored the

42
00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:18.919
<v Speaker 2>necessary investments for MICROSOFCE architecture, but we had all this

43
00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:22.879
<v Speaker 2>pain and a niche was working at Uber at the

44
00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:26.960
<v Speaker 2>time with my other co founder and CEO, and we

45
00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:29.560
<v Speaker 2>were just grabbing a beer and we were talking about

46
00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:33.240
<v Speaker 2>like just stuff of work, and I remember asking him like, hey,

47
00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:35.639
<v Speaker 2>you're a uber, Like you guys have so many micro services.

48
00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:37.080
<v Speaker 2>How do you solve this, Like how do you keep

49
00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:39.400
<v Speaker 2>track of owners? And he's like, dude, you just slack

50
00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:42.759
<v Speaker 2>people and you just hope for the best. And so

51
00:02:42.840 --> 00:02:45.639
<v Speaker 2>all that to say that if I hadn't roomed with

52
00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:47.520
<v Speaker 2>the right person in college, and if I hadn't met

53
00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:49.680
<v Speaker 2>these two guys and they weren't working at Uber and Toyo,

54
00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:51.840
<v Speaker 2>and I hadn't joined the team that I was working

55
00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:55.080
<v Speaker 2>on the first micro service coming out of the monolith.

56
00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:57.560
<v Speaker 2>Because I joined at the right time, maybe Quartex wouldn't

57
00:02:57.560 --> 00:02:59.039
<v Speaker 2>have happened. And so a lot of things we had

58
00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:01.879
<v Speaker 2>to go right for for us to land on this idea.

59
00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:04.639
<v Speaker 2>Maybe maybe I would have ended there in a different path,

60
00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:08.400
<v Speaker 2>but you know, things, things work out for the best.

61
00:03:08.599 --> 00:03:11.080
<v Speaker 2>So I promise it would all come together, and I

62
00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:11.439
<v Speaker 2>hoped it.

63
00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:15.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure, that's cool. Like there was in the

64
00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:20.080
<v Speaker 1>in the nineties, there was this show on PBS called Connections,

65
00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:23.840
<v Speaker 1>and I can't remember the host's name. But he would

66
00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:26.879
<v Speaker 1>tell like a similar story where every episode was like

67
00:03:26.919 --> 00:03:30.319
<v Speaker 1>this series of events over like two hundred years and

68
00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:33.879
<v Speaker 1>how it led to like the invention of some something

69
00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:38.639
<v Speaker 1>that just changed civilization and it's like, wow, that's that

70
00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:41.039
<v Speaker 1>was a whole lot of steps that could have steered

71
00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:41.919
<v Speaker 1>that off course.

72
00:03:42.199 --> 00:03:44.240
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, yeah, one hundred percent. I do reasgually

73
00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:45.000
<v Speaker 2>remember that show.

74
00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:51.919
<v Speaker 1>Cool. So, so what are the big pain points that

75
00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:57.800
<v Speaker 1>an internal developer platform, like for someone who doesn't have

76
00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:01.240
<v Speaker 1>an IDP, what are the things in their life that

77
00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:06.759
<v Speaker 1>would make them say, oh wow, that's what that would do.

78
00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:12.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So I think our thinking on this has actually

79
00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:14.199
<v Speaker 2>changed in the last like twelve to eighteen months, and

80
00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:16.439
<v Speaker 2>we'll kind of walk you through why then. When we

81
00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:19.920
<v Speaker 2>first started Cortex, it was really just I don't know

82
00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:23.160
<v Speaker 2>what services we have, ownership of these things is really broken.

83
00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:25.240
<v Speaker 2>Let me create a system that we can put all

84
00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:27.360
<v Speaker 2>this stuff into that when there's an incident or something,

85
00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:29.480
<v Speaker 2>I know where to go. And I think over the

86
00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:31.879
<v Speaker 2>last four years it's really changed quite a bit. And

87
00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:35.319
<v Speaker 2>I think over the last eighteen months, what we believe

88
00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:40.040
<v Speaker 2>is if you have any sort of initiative around engineering excellence,

89
00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:43.600
<v Speaker 2>you should be thinking about an IDP and injuring excellence

90
00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:46.560
<v Speaker 2>is a broad phrase, but we define it as the

91
00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:52.560
<v Speaker 2>investment in kind of high performance injuring foundations to enable

92
00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:55.920
<v Speaker 2>business outcomes. So when you think about any organizations that's

93
00:04:55.920 --> 00:05:01.759
<v Speaker 2>investing in security or reliability practices or platform practices or

94
00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:04.959
<v Speaker 2>making their systems more efficient or trying to move faster,

95
00:05:05.560 --> 00:05:08.240
<v Speaker 2>those are usually like injuring foundations, Like those are things

96
00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:10.680
<v Speaker 2>like if you do these things right, you will hopefully

97
00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:15.240
<v Speaker 2>be able to build more features better and deliver in

98
00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:18.519
<v Speaker 2>more innovation or you know, cost productions or whatever those

99
00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:22.319
<v Speaker 2>things are. And I think what's interesting is a lot

100
00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:25.160
<v Speaker 2>of organizations have had teams pop up around these kind

101
00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:27.319
<v Speaker 2>of goals. And so you have like SR teams that

102
00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:30.199
<v Speaker 2>own sec owned reliability, and you have security teams own security.

103
00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:33.000
<v Speaker 2>And if you squint an organization, you kind of see

104
00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:36.040
<v Speaker 2>like injuring excellence as these set of teams that don't

105
00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:40.040
<v Speaker 2>really own product outcomes but own kind of engineering outcomes.

106
00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:43.879
<v Speaker 2>And those happen to be our best stakeholders, like they're

107
00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:46.920
<v Speaker 2>the ones that use the IDP in order to drive

108
00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:50.839
<v Speaker 2>these outcomes. And so if you have a kind of

109
00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:54.199
<v Speaker 2>a service oriented architecture or some sort of complex software

110
00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:57.639
<v Speaker 2>ecosystem and you are looking to invest in these kind

111
00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:01.160
<v Speaker 2>of engineering outcomes, then how can you do that without

112
00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:04.600
<v Speaker 2>a system that is designed for that use case? And

113
00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:07.720
<v Speaker 2>like the example that I always give is like a CRM,

114
00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:12.079
<v Speaker 2>like any sales self respecting sales organization like would not

115
00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:13.839
<v Speaker 2>be operating out of a spreadsheet or a bunch of

116
00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:15.600
<v Speaker 2>confluence pages. Like imagine you went to a VP of

117
00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:17.639
<v Speaker 2>sales and you're like, and they told you, oh, yeah,

118
00:06:17.639 --> 00:06:20.399
<v Speaker 2>I just keep track of all my accounts and confluence pages.

119
00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:22.519
<v Speaker 2>You will la from out of the room, and you know,

120
00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:26.079
<v Speaker 2>a CRM is their way to codify and methodically track

121
00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:28.680
<v Speaker 2>all their accounts and their opportunities and report on things

122
00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:31.399
<v Speaker 2>and like make sure their sales organization is following sales

123
00:06:31.399 --> 00:06:34.079
<v Speaker 2>practices and all these things. So why is engineering any different,

124
00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:35.959
<v Speaker 2>Like that's what we do today, Like we have a

125
00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:38.199
<v Speaker 2>bunch of confluence pages and we like just pray for

126
00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:40.680
<v Speaker 2>the best. We have SRA teams and security teams who

127
00:06:40.680 --> 00:06:42.600
<v Speaker 2>are trying to drive these best practices, but you don't

128
00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:45.160
<v Speaker 2>have a way of methodically doing it. And so IDPs

129
00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:47.360
<v Speaker 2>I think are men for organizations that are trying to

130
00:06:48.079 --> 00:06:50.800
<v Speaker 2>invest in the injuring foundations to drive those outcomes and

131
00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:53.079
<v Speaker 2>do so in a methodical, kind of data driven way.

132
00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:58.120
<v Speaker 2>Those are our best customers. Like folks that see engineering

133
00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:02.000
<v Speaker 2>and software as a competitive advantage and believe in investing

134
00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:04.319
<v Speaker 2>in injuring foundations as a way to drive business outcomes

135
00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:07.959
<v Speaker 2>should have a system that enables that set of practices.

136
00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:11.879
<v Speaker 2>Broply speaking, so long would an answer, but if you if

137
00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:14.480
<v Speaker 2>you were investing in injuring excellence and IDP is probably

138
00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:16.399
<v Speaker 2>part of that journey in some way.

139
00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:18.920
<v Speaker 1>Long winded answers are Okay, we got a whole podcast

140
00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:19.439
<v Speaker 1>to fill here.

141
00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:22.240
<v Speaker 2>No.

142
00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:24.680
<v Speaker 1>I like that analogy though. This I hadn't heard the

143
00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:29.360
<v Speaker 1>CRM analogy before though, and that that resonates so well

144
00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:34.879
<v Speaker 1>with me because one of my first jobs in you know,

145
00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:39.680
<v Speaker 1>tech it software engineering was around CRM, because like this

146
00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:46.240
<v Speaker 1>was in what was it, I think it was late nineties,

147
00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:51.000
<v Speaker 1>early two thousands, you know, and everyone like CRMs back

148
00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:55.480
<v Speaker 1>then were like you know AI today, where everybody was

149
00:07:55.560 --> 00:08:01.079
<v Speaker 1>just like pimping it out. But it's true because I

150
00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:05.040
<v Speaker 1>think that that analogy is just so cool because from

151
00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:07.759
<v Speaker 1>my perspective in my day to day work, you know,

152
00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:12.519
<v Speaker 1>you're always like getting pulled off to take a look

153
00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:15.519
<v Speaker 1>at this micro service or that micro service or what's

154
00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:20.000
<v Speaker 1>this alert mean? And so the IDP is like a

155
00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:24.040
<v Speaker 1>common source of knowledge where you can go see like

156
00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:27.279
<v Speaker 1>not only hey, what is this thing, but where is it?

157
00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:29.759
<v Speaker 1>Where's it running at? You know, and how is it

158
00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:32.679
<v Speaker 1>deployed and whatever pieces are connected to it.

159
00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:37.759
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, Like if you know, what's really interesting is that

160
00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:42.039
<v Speaker 2>every single function in an organization has some sort of

161
00:08:42.600 --> 00:08:46.279
<v Speaker 2>system of record, right like HR has HRS systems like

162
00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:49.320
<v Speaker 2>Workday and sales have CRMs, and I guess marketing also

163
00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:51.399
<v Speaker 2>use the CRMs, but they also have things like MARKETO

164
00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:56.000
<v Speaker 2>and finances ERP and then Enguring built all these other CRMs,

165
00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:58.679
<v Speaker 2>but we didn't really have one ourselves. And it's really

166
00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:01.879
<v Speaker 2>interesting because the same things you hear in other functions,

167
00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:05.000
<v Speaker 2>like you know, support ticket comes in. Like imagine if

168
00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:07.039
<v Speaker 2>every time a support ticket came in, your support team

169
00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:08.440
<v Speaker 2>was like who owns this account?

170
00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:08.679
<v Speaker 1>Again?

171
00:09:08.759 --> 00:09:09.759
<v Speaker 2>Like what does this account? Do?

172
00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:10.159
<v Speaker 1>You know?

173
00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:12.519
<v Speaker 2>What kind of customer are they? And you just kind

174
00:09:12.519 --> 00:09:14.360
<v Speaker 2>of ping each other on Slack at a conflience s

175
00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:16.480
<v Speaker 2>Pase you do that, it'd be insane, but like that's

176
00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:19.080
<v Speaker 2>what happens today. In engineering is like, hey, I have

177
00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:22.039
<v Speaker 2>a question about the payment's API. Who do I go to? Again?

178
00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:24.279
<v Speaker 2>Like who do I talk to about that? Like like

179
00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:26.919
<v Speaker 2>that is the current state of affairs for most organizations

180
00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:30.080
<v Speaker 2>and so like the fact that every other function software

181
00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:31.919
<v Speaker 2>drinking teams have solved that for everyone else, but we

182
00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:34.679
<v Speaker 2>haven't sold it for ourselves is like such a bizarre

183
00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:37.399
<v Speaker 2>chicken or the egg problem to me. And you know,

184
00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:40.080
<v Speaker 2>I think the other like best example of this is

185
00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:43.279
<v Speaker 2>the fact that most of these other functions use their

186
00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:46.519
<v Speaker 2>system of record to drive kind of like purpose build

187
00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:49.240
<v Speaker 2>process for it. And I'll give you an example of this,

188
00:09:49.399 --> 00:09:52.480
<v Speaker 2>Like you know, sales teams they have you know, medpick

189
00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:54.840
<v Speaker 2>or whatever kind of like sales methodology they want to

190
00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:57.840
<v Speaker 2>use to drive like quality leads. Like a sales leader

191
00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:00.679
<v Speaker 2>will come in and say, hey, I you know, I'm

192
00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:02.840
<v Speaker 2>not gonna treat this as a real deal unless you

193
00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:04.600
<v Speaker 2>know what the pain is in this account and you

194
00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:06.799
<v Speaker 2>know who the decision maker is, and like you've done

195
00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:09.039
<v Speaker 2>all this discovery until you do that, Like, I don't

196
00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:11.840
<v Speaker 2>even treat this as a real deal, and all that

197
00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:14.679
<v Speaker 2>stuff has codified it into this CRM, Like you cannot

198
00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:17.120
<v Speaker 2>move a deal forward in stages and unless it has

199
00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:19.799
<v Speaker 2>that information and like that forces the behavior you want.

200
00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:22.480
<v Speaker 2>But in engineering, like we don't really have that, Like

201
00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:25.080
<v Speaker 2>if you the the best example of this is like

202
00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:28.000
<v Speaker 2>production readiness process, right, it's like, hey, you have to

203
00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:30.320
<v Speaker 2>follow all these standards and like meet these requirements and

204
00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:31.840
<v Speaker 2>you have to do things in a certain way so

205
00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:33.480
<v Speaker 2>that when you go to production, like we're not gonna

206
00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:36.320
<v Speaker 2>waste time being like where the fuck are the logs?

207
00:10:36.440 --> 00:10:38.159
<v Speaker 2>Sorry for mind you, where the logs for this thing are?

208
00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:42.240
<v Speaker 2>Like you know, like who's on call for this? Like

209
00:10:42.360 --> 00:10:45.240
<v Speaker 2>is there an escalation policy? Like is there an uptime honitor?

210
00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:46.360
<v Speaker 2>Why did this go off?

211
00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:47.200
<v Speaker 1>Like that?

212
00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:49.960
<v Speaker 2>That's kind of the current state in production readiness process

213
00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:52.440
<v Speaker 2>is like this is a very manual thing, and you

214
00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:54.399
<v Speaker 2>know with SRR teams, you have SR teams that like

215
00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:57.159
<v Speaker 2>will interrogate you before the thing goes to production, like

216
00:10:57.200 --> 00:10:58.600
<v Speaker 2>have you done all the things you should do? And

217
00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:01.159
<v Speaker 2>they're like yes, I have, like trust me, and it's

218
00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:03.519
<v Speaker 2>an honor system thing, and so why is that any

219
00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:06.720
<v Speaker 2>different from a sales team kind of like codifying these

220
00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:09.879
<v Speaker 2>things in a system. If sales can codify things, why

221
00:11:09.879 --> 00:11:13.080
<v Speaker 2>can't the function that codifies things for a living codify

222
00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:15.399
<v Speaker 2>those things into a system too. And so you know,

223
00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:17.679
<v Speaker 2>like product readiness is a very common thing people do

224
00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:20.480
<v Speaker 2>with IDPs because you have kind of your core catalog

225
00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:22.879
<v Speaker 2>with services and ownership and all this metadata. Now that

226
00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:24.720
<v Speaker 2>you have that, you can say like, these are the

227
00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:26.960
<v Speaker 2>things that I care about from a product readiness process,

228
00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:28.759
<v Speaker 2>and I'm going to codify this. I'm going to valuate

229
00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:30.600
<v Speaker 2>all these things are true and I we'll just tell

230
00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:32.720
<v Speaker 2>you if you're not getting those requirements. And so I

231
00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:34.519
<v Speaker 2>don't know then now. The moment we came up with

232
00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:38.039
<v Speaker 2>this analogy was like like suddenly, you know, everything clicked

233
00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:40.639
<v Speaker 2>because every function has the same problems, Like we're just

234
00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:44.919
<v Speaker 2>reinventing the wheel, and why do that when we've learned

235
00:11:44.919 --> 00:11:46.840
<v Speaker 2>these lessons the hard way over and over again and

236
00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:50.519
<v Speaker 2>like every single function And so I really really love

237
00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:51.159
<v Speaker 2>that analogy.

238
00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:56.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's cool. It just works so well. You mentioned that,

239
00:11:56.159 --> 00:12:01.200
<v Speaker 1>like your SRE teams are your biggest advocates of this,

240
00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:07.279
<v Speaker 1>what kind of like what are the big challenges for

241
00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:12.840
<v Speaker 1>them to get that, to get like support across the

242
00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:13.399
<v Speaker 1>org for that.

243
00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:17.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, I would say like our biggest advocates

244
00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:22.480
<v Speaker 2>are usually platform engineers, sorry security and like developer experience,

245
00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:25.879
<v Speaker 2>though I think developer experience has been generally subsumed by

246
00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:29.399
<v Speaker 2>like DeVos platform groups at this point. SORR is a

247
00:12:29.480 --> 00:12:33.440
<v Speaker 2>really interesting one because they don't necessarily see an IDP

248
00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:35.480
<v Speaker 2>as just a platform or like the system record is

249
00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:38.639
<v Speaker 2>a platform, you know, kind of extend this extending this

250
00:12:38.679 --> 00:12:41.759
<v Speaker 2>analogy a little bit. It's like your customer success team.

251
00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:44.200
<v Speaker 2>You know, they probably don't own the CRM, but they

252
00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:47.320
<v Speaker 2>are like major stakeholders, and if they don't have information

253
00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:50.080
<v Speaker 2>about your customers, their lives are a lot harder. And

254
00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:51.519
<v Speaker 2>so SRA teams are kind of the same, where they

255
00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:54.600
<v Speaker 2>just have a very specific pain point and it's usually

256
00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:57.559
<v Speaker 2>around you know, being the first line of defense during

257
00:12:57.559 --> 00:13:02.200
<v Speaker 2>incidents or running production by processes and whatnot. You know,

258
00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:07.320
<v Speaker 2>like let's say an e commerce company. For example, we

259
00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:11.519
<v Speaker 2>work with a really, really well known e commerce company

260
00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:14.960
<v Speaker 2>and every year they run a production readiness process to

261
00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:17.000
<v Speaker 2>get ready for Black Friday, because you know, majority of

262
00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:20.200
<v Speaker 2>the revenue comes in on Black Friday, and so you

263
00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:21.840
<v Speaker 2>can imagine that they probably have some of the best

264
00:13:21.879 --> 00:13:24.679
<v Speaker 2>production readiness processes in the world because you you bet

265
00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:27.440
<v Speaker 2>their systems are precurely ready come Black Friday, cyber Monday,

266
00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:29.960
<v Speaker 2>and so your SORRY team comes in and they run

267
00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:33.000
<v Speaker 2>this entire process around it. So things like load testing

268
00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:36.559
<v Speaker 2>and contract testing and you know, monitoring and alerting and

269
00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:39.039
<v Speaker 2>logging and all these things are like those things have

270
00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:41.840
<v Speaker 2>to be ready to go come black Friday, and so

271
00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:44.480
<v Speaker 2>how do they do that today? You know, it's generally

272
00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:48.440
<v Speaker 2>a combination of spreadsheets and you know, tracking down service

273
00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:51.480
<v Speaker 2>owners and like manual processes around this kind of thing.

274
00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:53.759
<v Speaker 2>And you do that year over year over over year,

275
00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:56.480
<v Speaker 2>and it's just like and you end up in a

276
00:13:56.480 --> 00:13:58.080
<v Speaker 2>state where there's tons of drift. Right, it's your I

277
00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:01.679
<v Speaker 2>SR team owns the outcome of reliability. So you know,

278
00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:04.679
<v Speaker 2>from a CTO perspective or a business perspective, they're the

279
00:14:04.679 --> 00:14:08.039
<v Speaker 2>ones that are kind of the single choke point for reliability.

280
00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:10.320
<v Speaker 2>If things don't work the way they expect, the first

281
00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:12.519
<v Speaker 2>question is like, hey, SR team, what happened?

282
00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:12.960
<v Speaker 1>Right?

283
00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:15.759
<v Speaker 2>And so it's like they have invested interest in making

284
00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:19.440
<v Speaker 2>sure that reliability practices are codified and it's not just them.

285
00:14:19.480 --> 00:14:22.519
<v Speaker 2>I think SAR is unique in the sense, like all

286
00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:24.440
<v Speaker 2>these kind of core teams I mentioned, like Platform and

287
00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:27.480
<v Speaker 2>Sorry insecurity are unique in the sense that they don't

288
00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:30.039
<v Speaker 2>really have a direct impact on what other teams do.

289
00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:33.279
<v Speaker 2>They're more like influencers in an organization. They can say

290
00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:35.440
<v Speaker 2>these are the things that I need you to be doing.

291
00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:39.120
<v Speaker 2>But unless there's a mandate from like a VP, begeering

292
00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:42.000
<v Speaker 2>or CTO, they can't hold other teams accountable.

293
00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:42.159
<v Speaker 1>Right.

294
00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:44.519
<v Speaker 2>It's more like, here's a process that we're going to

295
00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:46.960
<v Speaker 2>put in place, and like hopefully you get buy in

296
00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:49.720
<v Speaker 2>from the leadership team to use those as gates. But

297
00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:51.360
<v Speaker 2>like that's one of the biggest pain points is that

298
00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:54.600
<v Speaker 2>there's like there's the problem of they're being held accountable

299
00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:58.440
<v Speaker 2>to a major business outcome, but they don't have the

300
00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:02.960
<v Speaker 2>quote unquote how we're to enforce that across their peer groups,

301
00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:06.039
<v Speaker 2>and so they're kind of in this weird situation. And

302
00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:08.480
<v Speaker 2>so I think that's why they love IDPs is because

303
00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:11.519
<v Speaker 2>now they can codify this requirement in a systematic way.

304
00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:14.039
<v Speaker 2>So they use the catalog and they codify their pressure

305
00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:17.039
<v Speaker 2>readingness process, and they can generate reports for leadership. They

306
00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:19.720
<v Speaker 2>can you know, assign action items to developers, and they

307
00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:22.480
<v Speaker 2>have a way to like continuously monitor these things. And

308
00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:24.639
<v Speaker 2>I think that's the other thing about IDPs is like

309
00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:27.639
<v Speaker 2>I sorry. Teams obviously are pushing the idea of like

310
00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:30.480
<v Speaker 2>observability and monitoring and all these things, And so if

311
00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:33.120
<v Speaker 2>we really care about real time visibility into those things,

312
00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:35.600
<v Speaker 2>why do we treat a process like pressure waightingness as

313
00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:37.440
<v Speaker 2>a one and done thing, right, It's like, oh, you

314
00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:39.720
<v Speaker 2>check it off and like we'll come back in six months.

315
00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:42.480
<v Speaker 2>When anything can change in six months, I could, you know,

316
00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:45.000
<v Speaker 2>blow away my page duty rotation And I would never

317
00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:47.200
<v Speaker 2>know that until something went wrong and people are like, oh,

318
00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:49.360
<v Speaker 2>why did you get paid? Well, ah, my bad, Like

319
00:15:49.399 --> 00:15:52.519
<v Speaker 2>I accidentally turn off all the notification settings on this thing,

320
00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:55.320
<v Speaker 2>and so why wouldn't you continuously monitor that? So I

321
00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:57.000
<v Speaker 2>think that's one of the reasons why I Sory teams

322
00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:00.600
<v Speaker 2>are kind of such strong stakeholders is because they want

323
00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:04.799
<v Speaker 2>a methodical, automated way to codify their practices and drive

324
00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:08.960
<v Speaker 2>behavior change across the organization using like a system rather

325
00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:12.080
<v Speaker 2>than just like an honor process. And then of course

326
00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:13.840
<v Speaker 2>having a catalog and ownership and all those things are

327
00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:17.240
<v Speaker 2>really important because when there's an incident there, they don't

328
00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.799
<v Speaker 2>own those services, and their first thing is like who

329
00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:20.440
<v Speaker 2>do I go to?

330
00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:21.440
<v Speaker 1>How do I like?

331
00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:23.240
<v Speaker 2>How do I loopen the right people here and if

332
00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:25.279
<v Speaker 2>you don't have a system for that, again, you're like

333
00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:29.080
<v Speaker 2>at here who owns payments and you can wait, you know.

334
00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:30.879
<v Speaker 2>And so like being able to go to a place

335
00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:33.720
<v Speaker 2>that says a show's payments and I will wake them

336
00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:36.960
<v Speaker 2>up because this is Brandon down somewhere and like validated.

337
00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:39.039
<v Speaker 2>So my life is so much better. So that's why

338
00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:40.879
<v Speaker 2>your teams love IDPs for that reason.

339
00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:46.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the at here message is like the the pleas

340
00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:49.120
<v Speaker 1>and then the at channel is like, Okay, this isn't

341
00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:51.480
<v Speaker 1>This isn't a funny question anymore.

342
00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:55.279
<v Speaker 2>Exactly exactly, that's exactly right.

343
00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:00.039
<v Speaker 1>There's always that big side when you get paiged and

344
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:02.919
<v Speaker 1>you look at the alert and you're like, wow, I've

345
00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:06.640
<v Speaker 1>never even heard of this service before. Exactly, this should

346
00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:07.079
<v Speaker 1>be fun.

347
00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:09.920
<v Speaker 2>It's just like your heart sinks and it's like, oh

348
00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:12.880
<v Speaker 2>my god, what is this thing? Like this does not

349
00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:14.440
<v Speaker 2>sound like a thing that it should exist.

350
00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:15.440
<v Speaker 1>Right.

351
00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:19.440
<v Speaker 2>I will say I think I was definitely a culprit

352
00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:21.680
<v Speaker 2>of this in my last job. I'm a sucker for

353
00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:25.880
<v Speaker 2>great micro service names. But I will say I think

354
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:29.440
<v Speaker 2>over the last few years, most organizations we work with

355
00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:31.920
<v Speaker 2>have gotten much better about just naming things what they do.

356
00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:37.039
<v Speaker 2>Cortex included for the most part. We definitely have our

357
00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:39.319
<v Speaker 2>culprits here and there. But I think it's a lot

358
00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:44.359
<v Speaker 2>easier to understand when something is named payment service versus

359
00:17:44.839 --> 00:17:47.599
<v Speaker 2>bank emoji or something like something stupid like that.

360
00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:51.599
<v Speaker 1>Oh for sure. Yeah, yeah. I remember when I first

361
00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:55.119
<v Speaker 1>started my career, like there was for several years there

362
00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:58.559
<v Speaker 1>was this big trend to name all of your servers

363
00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:04.359
<v Speaker 1>after like Simpson's characters or Lord of the Rings characters,

364
00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:06.799
<v Speaker 1>and so you would get paged in the middle of

365
00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:11.000
<v Speaker 1>the night because Homer has crashed and you're like, this

366
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:14.200
<v Speaker 1>is not helpful information.

367
00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:17.440
<v Speaker 2>That that honestly didn't change with micro services. I think

368
00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:21.400
<v Speaker 2>like my last job we named and again I thought

369
00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:24.400
<v Speaker 2>this was awesome, Like we had a you know or

370
00:18:24.440 --> 00:18:27.319
<v Speaker 2>automated like decisioning stack for like credit card decisions and stuff,

371
00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:30.680
<v Speaker 2>and it was all named after like Espresso, because you know,

372
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:34.279
<v Speaker 2>you have Brewer, which like takes the stuff from Espresso

373
00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:36.680
<v Speaker 2>and then like or like the beans and then extracts

374
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:38.759
<v Speaker 2>things out of it. So it's like a feature feature

375
00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:41.240
<v Speaker 2>extraction tool for the machine leading models. I was like,

376
00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:43.039
<v Speaker 2>Brewer is such a great name for that. You know

377
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:45.359
<v Speaker 2>and like you know, stuff like that, and like that

378
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:48.279
<v Speaker 2>was a whole theme around that. And but now looking back,

379
00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:50.559
<v Speaker 2>I'm like imagining a new engineer joining the team and

380
00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:53.000
<v Speaker 2>you're looking at like what are these like coffee services?

381
00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:56.119
<v Speaker 2>Like what is this to do with anything? So, yeah,

382
00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:00.720
<v Speaker 2>I make coffee exactly exactly? Is that a side business?

383
00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:02.319
<v Speaker 2>Like Nope, definitely not.

384
00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:08.319
<v Speaker 1>Cool. So a lot of this paints an organization or

385
00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:14.960
<v Speaker 1>steers an organization to a new level of maturity. But

386
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:20.000
<v Speaker 1>what's the entry level of maturity to get started down

387
00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:21.880
<v Speaker 1>this path? Like do you kind of have to have

388
00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:24.519
<v Speaker 1>a pretty good grip on where your environment is to

389
00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:27.480
<v Speaker 1>start getting benefits from implementing an IDP.

390
00:19:28.519 --> 00:19:30.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm really glad you asked this question because this question

391
00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:32.359
<v Speaker 2>probably comes up like six times a week. I mean,

392
00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:34.599
<v Speaker 2>I think it's a natural question asked. It's like, hey,

393
00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:36.799
<v Speaker 2>if we're telling folks that you know, you should be

394
00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:38.559
<v Speaker 2>more data driven in the way you operate than the

395
00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:40.279
<v Speaker 2>force of the question is well, my data sucks, Like

396
00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:42.559
<v Speaker 2>where do I start? And it's kind of this chicken

397
00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:44.319
<v Speaker 2>or the egg problem, right, It's like, well, do I

398
00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:46.319
<v Speaker 2>go back and clean up all my data first, or

399
00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:49.119
<v Speaker 2>do I start with an IDP, and then you know

400
00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:51.279
<v Speaker 2>which direction do I go? And my answer is always,

401
00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:54.200
<v Speaker 2>if you don't have a system of record, how do

402
00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:55.960
<v Speaker 2>you even know if your data is clean? Like you

403
00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:58.079
<v Speaker 2>can sit there scrubbing all day long and you will

404
00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:00.400
<v Speaker 2>just never know when you've actually reached a reasonable point.

405
00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:02.640
<v Speaker 2>And so like the way you think about it is

406
00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:07.720
<v Speaker 2>when you first start everything, like to take a famous line,

407
00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:10.079
<v Speaker 2>everything is an unknown unknown, right, It's like you just

408
00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:12.759
<v Speaker 2>literally have no idea. Everything is just a black box.

409
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:15.119
<v Speaker 2>And then you put it into a system, like you know,

410
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:17.160
<v Speaker 2>like an IDP and the catalog and all these things,

411
00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:19.960
<v Speaker 2>and then you write scorecards and like kind of data

412
00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:22.519
<v Speaker 2>quality checks around those things. Now, all of a sudden,

413
00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:24.519
<v Speaker 2>you may still want to know things, but we've turned

414
00:20:24.519 --> 00:20:27.000
<v Speaker 2>the unknown unknowns into the no unknowns, like hey, I

415
00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:28.559
<v Speaker 2>don't really know what the service does, or I don't

416
00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:30.839
<v Speaker 2>know where it's deployed, or is this thing even a

417
00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:33.240
<v Speaker 2>production service anymore? Like which team owns it and whatnot?

418
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:35.039
<v Speaker 2>And so like at least now you know that that

419
00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:37.200
<v Speaker 2>thing exists and you know that you don't know things

420
00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:39.279
<v Speaker 2>about it, and then you can start to fill in

421
00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:42.039
<v Speaker 2>the gaps with like automation or like human in the

422
00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:44.880
<v Speaker 2>loop processes or whatnot, and so like, without a system,

423
00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:47.519
<v Speaker 2>how do you even know where, like if you're making

424
00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:49.920
<v Speaker 2>any progress against this or where to go against this. Like,

425
00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:52.160
<v Speaker 2>for example, one of the things that we always hear

426
00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:53.480
<v Speaker 2>is like, oh, well, well, first we need to figure

427
00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:57.440
<v Speaker 2>out ownership for all of our services and and then

428
00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:00.000
<v Speaker 2>we'll ask people like that contacts about those services and whatnot.

429
00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:04.480
<v Speaker 2>And what's what's really interesting is, you know, we've we've

430
00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:06.759
<v Speaker 2>solved the ownership problem in a really interesting way where

431
00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:09.920
<v Speaker 2>we can use like machine learning techniques to determine owners

432
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:11.599
<v Speaker 2>of services and so that that's not really a problem

433
00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:13.759
<v Speaker 2>anymore because we can like tell you with like a

434
00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:16.359
<v Speaker 2>ninety five percent accuracy which team who thinks owns owns

435
00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:19.119
<v Speaker 2>a given service or repo. But even without that, like

436
00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:22.759
<v Speaker 2>it's probably easier for most organizations to say, these like

437
00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:26.640
<v Speaker 2>ten services over here generally make up like the payments

438
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:29.279
<v Speaker 2>system of things, and so like, being able to like

439
00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:33.200
<v Speaker 2>at least classify repos and services into these buckets then

440
00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:35.759
<v Speaker 2>allows you to say, well, not just do I not

441
00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:38.359
<v Speaker 2>know anything about these services other than the fact they're

442
00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:40.759
<v Speaker 2>in payments, I can start to make more data informed

443
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:43.160
<v Speaker 2>decisions around we're to start collecting that data, are cleaning

444
00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:45.920
<v Speaker 2>up the data, like, hey, you know the the Payments

445
00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:48.759
<v Speaker 2>Organization sixty percent of their stuff. We have no idea

446
00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:50.680
<v Speaker 2>what it is, so you know what, let's like ignore

447
00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:52.480
<v Speaker 2>everything else for now. And it's really focused on like

448
00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:55.079
<v Speaker 2>getting that data in order because that stuff is really

449
00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:57.160
<v Speaker 2>really critical, and then we'll get to the other stuff.

450
00:21:57.240 --> 00:21:58.759
<v Speaker 2>So how do you do that with that IDP? And

451
00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:00.319
<v Speaker 2>so that's why like with the chicken or the thing,

452
00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:03.160
<v Speaker 2>and then you have to start with the IDP as

453
00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:05.960
<v Speaker 2>a way to like codify this stuff and use it

454
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.880
<v Speaker 2>as a forcing function to turn the unknown unknowns into

455
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:11.599
<v Speaker 2>the NOE unknowns and hopefully eventually the no nones and

456
00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:13.599
<v Speaker 2>then maybe a long tail of no unknowns. And so

457
00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:15.599
<v Speaker 2>that's the kind of way I think about that problem.

458
00:22:16.519 --> 00:22:19.079
<v Speaker 1>Right. So it's like the difference between knowing I'm screwed

459
00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:20.640
<v Speaker 1>and knowing how screwed I am.

460
00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:23.799
<v Speaker 2>Exactly exactly, that's exactly right.

461
00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:30.319
<v Speaker 1>Cool. So then you can just kind of like almost

462
00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:35.440
<v Speaker 1>just create a process where first step is look for

463
00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:38.799
<v Speaker 1>this thing, something something draws your attention, you look for

464
00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:42.000
<v Speaker 1>it in the IDP, and if it's not, their first

465
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:45.039
<v Speaker 1>step is to add it to it exactly.

466
00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:47.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, hopefully the IDP you're using is able to

467
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:50.000
<v Speaker 2>like suck in everything, and so it's like that's kind

468
00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:52.519
<v Speaker 2>of what we do is point us to your tools

469
00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:54.759
<v Speaker 2>and we will just suck in as much as we can,

470
00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:56.799
<v Speaker 2>so at least we know that those things exist in

471
00:22:56.839 --> 00:22:58.960
<v Speaker 2>your world, and then you can start like filling in

472
00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:01.599
<v Speaker 2>the gaps. So that's kind of where we would start,

473
00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:04.319
<v Speaker 2>is like this this thing exists, and hoole like we

474
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:06.319
<v Speaker 2>started like plugging in the holes and the data, you know,

475
00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:08.359
<v Speaker 2>hopefully with automation or like a human in the loop.

476
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:10.720
<v Speaker 2>And so you can always go to the IDP and

477
00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:12.480
<v Speaker 2>start there and then kind of jump out into the

478
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:13.480
<v Speaker 2>other tools if you need to.

479
00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:17.400
<v Speaker 1>Right, And so you pointed at like your your cloud

480
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:20.400
<v Speaker 1>provider and data ge hub, your data.

481
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:23.160
<v Speaker 2>Hug, your AWS and all that kind of stuff and

482
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:25.920
<v Speaker 2>say like here's everything we found. Let's second as much

483
00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:27.839
<v Speaker 2>as we can. So now you have like a starting

484
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:32.839
<v Speaker 2>point again kind of turning the uh, the unknown nons

485
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:35.319
<v Speaker 2>into the non unknowns until like being able to then

486
00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:36.920
<v Speaker 2>quin a quarry against this and say, you know what,

487
00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:39.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna like ignore all the things that haven't had

488
00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:41.519
<v Speaker 2>to commit in like four years, like those repos that

489
00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:43.559
<v Speaker 2>just don't want and so you can like run a

490
00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:46.039
<v Speaker 2>report on that in the IDP and like put those

491
00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:48.200
<v Speaker 2>aside and then folks on all the other things. And like,

492
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:50.880
<v Speaker 2>because we all know there's like a thousand repos out

493
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:53.200
<v Speaker 2>of if you have a thousand repos, eight hundred of

494
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:55.759
<v Speaker 2>them are probably random script repos and tour into them

495
00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:58.920
<v Speaker 2>are real. So like how do you start to categorize

496
00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:01.720
<v Speaker 2>those things and like meaningful ways and you know, being

497
00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:04.519
<v Speaker 2>using IDPs like being able to put things aside and

498
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:05.920
<v Speaker 2>like start to focus on things. This is like an

499
00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:07.319
<v Speaker 2>interesting way of something that problem.

500
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:11.279
<v Speaker 1>If gethub ever decides to start charging per repo, we're

501
00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:11.839
<v Speaker 1>all screwed.

502
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:15.359
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, that would yeah, that would be a

503
00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:20.200
<v Speaker 2>bad day. Yeah. Most organizations definitely have more repos than people,

504
00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:21.119
<v Speaker 2>for better or worse.

505
00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:25.920
<v Speaker 1>Oh for sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So from a

506
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:30.519
<v Speaker 1>I think it's really easy to sell the story of

507
00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:35.079
<v Speaker 1>an IDP to your DevOps and SR and infrastructure teams.

508
00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:38.000
<v Speaker 1>What about to like the developers who are building the

509
00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:42.039
<v Speaker 1>micro services. What's the what's the incentive for them?

510
00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:44.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's it's an important question. I think. You know,

511
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:46.839
<v Speaker 2>our thinking around this has kind of changed quite a

512
00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:50.799
<v Speaker 2>bit when idp's first came around, especially like you know,

513
00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:53.839
<v Speaker 2>the open source framework from Spotify backstage and stuff like.

514
00:24:54.200 --> 00:24:59.359
<v Speaker 2>They they really focus the messaging around developer experience, Like

515
00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:03.480
<v Speaker 2>the main thing was just developer experience. And I really

516
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:06.839
<v Speaker 2>think that was a bad framing for ADYPS because it

517
00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:11.000
<v Speaker 2>focused the entire thing on just developers versus how does

518
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:13.480
<v Speaker 2>it fit into injuring excellence and then run you know,

519
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:16.240
<v Speaker 2>then focus that on developers. And you know what I

520
00:25:16.279 --> 00:25:18.759
<v Speaker 2>mean by that is like developer experience we kind of

521
00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:21.920
<v Speaker 2>see as a subset of injuring excellence, right, So it's

522
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:27.720
<v Speaker 2>like injuring excellence is the alignment of your like general

523
00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:31.680
<v Speaker 2>technical strategy to drive business outcomes. And it's like the

524
00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:33.960
<v Speaker 2>it's the entire life cycle, you know, starting from architecture

525
00:25:34.039 --> 00:25:37.160
<v Speaker 2>gains in response to production, to security posture and all

526
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:38.839
<v Speaker 2>these things like that, all of that stuff falls under

527
00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:42.000
<v Speaker 2>injuring excellence. The developer experience is kind of a subset

528
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:44.039
<v Speaker 2>of that, which is, you know, we want to optimize

529
00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:49.759
<v Speaker 2>the developer's workflow, sending tools, documentation CI, reducing friction, cognitive load,

530
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:52.960
<v Speaker 2>like improving sentiment, all those things kind of like fall

531
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:57.960
<v Speaker 2>under the developer experience bucket, right, And I think the

532
00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:01.519
<v Speaker 2>to to kind of bring in another analogy here. Developer

533
00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:04.799
<v Speaker 2>experience is kind of like the ergonomic office chair, right.

534
00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:09.000
<v Speaker 2>It's like you need it for comfort and productivity, and

535
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:11.519
<v Speaker 2>you need it to to not fall apart and have

536
00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:14.279
<v Speaker 2>a bad back in like five years. You could still

537
00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:16.400
<v Speaker 2>probably you know, write a ton of great code if

538
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.920
<v Speaker 2>you were hunched over on your sitting in your bed

539
00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:23.279
<v Speaker 2>and coding. Like it's you can still do good work,

540
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:26.400
<v Speaker 2>but you will probably kind of wither away after a

541
00:26:26.440 --> 00:26:28.440
<v Speaker 2>couple of years and like not beasi reproductive and you're

542
00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:30.200
<v Speaker 2>gonna hate your life and all those things. And so

543
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:34.079
<v Speaker 2>it's like injuring excellence is like the general operational strategy

544
00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:36.559
<v Speaker 2>to like, now that I have a chair and people

545
00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:39.079
<v Speaker 2>are comfortable, how can I you know, how can they

546
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:40.880
<v Speaker 2>write code that actually matters for the business and do

547
00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:42.599
<v Speaker 2>it in the right way? And so like all that

548
00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:44.960
<v Speaker 2>to say, I think when we think about where developers

549
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:48.119
<v Speaker 2>fit in, I think it starts with like, what is

550
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:50.720
<v Speaker 2>the business outcome we care about? So for example, like

551
00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:52.359
<v Speaker 2>I mentioned for the e commerce company, it's like we

552
00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:55.440
<v Speaker 2>want reliability, and for reliability, it's like okay, well, now

553
00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:57.519
<v Speaker 2>the s RA team owns a reliability initiative or on

554
00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:02.000
<v Speaker 2>injuring excellence, and they want to make sure that any

555
00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:04.680
<v Speaker 2>new service that is being deployed to production is following

556
00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:07.799
<v Speaker 2>all these practices, including new ones. And so they go

557
00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:09.400
<v Speaker 2>and work at the platform team and say like, hey,

558
00:27:09.400 --> 00:27:11.839
<v Speaker 2>we want to build a golden path, you know, and

559
00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:14.559
<v Speaker 2>we want to incorporate our SR practices into the golden

560
00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:16.640
<v Speaker 2>path that the platform team is building. And so now

561
00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:19.799
<v Speaker 2>you have your two central teams working together, and they

562
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:23.079
<v Speaker 2>take that and they deliver it to the developer team

563
00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:25.359
<v Speaker 2>and they say like, hey, like this is our production

564
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:27.519
<v Speaker 2>readiness process. You have to meet all these requirements to

565
00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:30.119
<v Speaker 2>go to production. By the way, we also have this

566
00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:32.319
<v Speaker 2>real easy starter where if you click a button, we

567
00:27:32.359 --> 00:27:34.319
<v Speaker 2>will create a repo for you and bootstrap with all

568
00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:36.279
<v Speaker 2>the right things and like registrate with data dog and

569
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:38.599
<v Speaker 2>set up your monitors. And so you can use a

570
00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:40.440
<v Speaker 2>starter and get all these things for free, or you

571
00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:42.240
<v Speaker 2>can kind of go down your own path, but you

572
00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:45.119
<v Speaker 2>will still be set held to the same requirements. And

573
00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:47.079
<v Speaker 2>so now you've kind of tie the two things together.

574
00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:50.519
<v Speaker 2>It's like the develop the seamless developer experience around spinning

575
00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:53.160
<v Speaker 2>up a new service or self serving something is tied

576
00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:55.160
<v Speaker 2>to this kind of like outcome that we care about,

577
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:57.359
<v Speaker 2>and so like that's the way we think about where

578
00:27:57.400 --> 00:28:00.519
<v Speaker 2>IDPs drive value for developers. So it's like you can

579
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:03.880
<v Speaker 2>you still have really great developer experiences around. Hey, I

580
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:05.480
<v Speaker 2>need to figure out who to talk to when I

581
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:06.759
<v Speaker 2>have a question about a thing. Let me go and

582
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:08.799
<v Speaker 2>ask the catalog. Or I'm trying to spin up a

583
00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:10.559
<v Speaker 2>new service, like let me just go click this button

584
00:28:10.599 --> 00:28:13.480
<v Speaker 2>and like get a new service in two minutes versus

585
00:28:13.799 --> 00:28:17.440
<v Speaker 2>going and copying a thousand boilerplate lines and trying to

586
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:19.960
<v Speaker 2>set up things myself. But it's like all baked into

587
00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:22.359
<v Speaker 2>this concept of injuring excellence, you know, like the other

588
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:25.200
<v Speaker 2>examples of this like that we see it with IDPs

589
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:30.279
<v Speaker 2>is things like temporary credentials for database, Like, hey, I

590
00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:33.720
<v Speaker 2>need temporary access for some vault and I need just

591
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:37.119
<v Speaker 2>in time credentials. Okay, cool, Like that is a security

592
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:39.920
<v Speaker 2>outcome that we care about, and I could probably do

593
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:41.559
<v Speaker 2>this as like a jear ticket that I can go

594
00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:43.720
<v Speaker 2>and file and like assign it to the security team

595
00:28:43.759 --> 00:28:45.240
<v Speaker 2>and they can review it and they can send me

596
00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:47.680
<v Speaker 2>like a secure link with the credential or something silly

597
00:28:47.720 --> 00:28:50.079
<v Speaker 2>like that, or they can bake that into the IDP

598
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:52.759
<v Speaker 2>and say, hey, click this button. It will notify me

599
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:54.079
<v Speaker 2>when you want this thing, and I will approve it

600
00:28:54.119 --> 00:28:56.160
<v Speaker 2>and you will just get your credentials there. So it's

601
00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:59.200
<v Speaker 2>still like in service of security, but the developer experience

602
00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:01.279
<v Speaker 2>is awesome and so why when a developers use it?

603
00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:04.000
<v Speaker 2>So it's really around like I think a lot of

604
00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:06.519
<v Speaker 2>IDP initiatives fail and it's general development like not even

605
00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:10.039
<v Speaker 2>IDP like developer experience initiatives or platform managing initiatives fail

606
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:14.079
<v Speaker 2>because if you have the mindset of if we build it,

607
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:16.559
<v Speaker 2>they will come, it never works out. Like you have

608
00:29:16.599 --> 00:29:19.000
<v Speaker 2>to be solivent a very specific pain and like think

609
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:21.440
<v Speaker 2>about it like a product manager and run like drive

610
00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:23.440
<v Speaker 2>to where some outcome. And then if you do it

611
00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:26.640
<v Speaker 2>the right way, then developers will naturally like your adopt

612
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:29.319
<v Speaker 2>the capabilities because it is something that they are facing

613
00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:32.079
<v Speaker 2>pain with today. It's like that's where I think developers

614
00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:33.839
<v Speaker 2>get a lot of value out of the IDP as

615
00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:34.200
<v Speaker 2>a whole.

616
00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:39.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I think there's like so much overlap there

617
00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:42.480
<v Speaker 1>for you specifically in that build it and they will

618
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:46.799
<v Speaker 1>come model because you were the one of the co

619
00:29:46.920 --> 00:29:50.839
<v Speaker 1>founders of Cortex, so you know firsthand, like you've got

620
00:29:50.839 --> 00:29:56.200
<v Speaker 1>your employee salaries on the line to figure out and

621
00:29:56.599 --> 00:30:00.319
<v Speaker 1>you know, and decide like, oh, just because I built

622
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:02.519
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't mean they're going to come. So you have

623
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:06.119
<v Speaker 1>to you have to do that marketing, you know, and

624
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:08.720
<v Speaker 1>find out who's using your product, and who looked at

625
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:11.240
<v Speaker 1>your product and decided it wasn't for them and why.

626
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:14.319
<v Speaker 1>And I think those same lessons have to be applied

627
00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:17.960
<v Speaker 1>internal to the organization as well for a product of

628
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:20.319
<v Speaker 1>this scale to be successful.

629
00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:23.400
<v Speaker 2>That's exactly right. I mean, coming from a technical background,

630
00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:27.160
<v Speaker 2>our first iteration of this was literally like, here's a catalog.

631
00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:30.920
<v Speaker 2>It solved that you know, sinking feeling when I got

632
00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:34.079
<v Speaker 2>paid at two am for service Dinefic Gamston's character and

633
00:30:34.119 --> 00:30:35.480
<v Speaker 2>we put it out there and we're like, why does

634
00:30:35.559 --> 00:30:38.960
<v Speaker 2>nobody want this? And it was like it was I

635
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:40.880
<v Speaker 2>don't know. It was such a moment for us because

636
00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:42.799
<v Speaker 2>we were just so focused on solving for this one

637
00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:45.200
<v Speaker 2>and specific pain point the way to take a step

638
00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:48.119
<v Speaker 2>back and think about, well, yes, this pain is hard,

639
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:49.839
<v Speaker 2>but how do we show people the value of this?

640
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:53.079
<v Speaker 2>How do we you know, make it so obvious that

641
00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:55.160
<v Speaker 2>this is the right way of doing things that people

642
00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:59.119
<v Speaker 2>will want to adopt it and like maybe overcome friction

643
00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:02.759
<v Speaker 2>around it. Like platform engineering or DevOps is no different, right,

644
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:04.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean we've gone through this time and time again.

645
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:06.799
<v Speaker 2>It's like, oh, you know, we've like rebuilt our CI

646
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:09.000
<v Speaker 2>process and our cipipeline and the's all these other tools,

647
00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:11.000
<v Speaker 2>and you're like, why is nobody using it? Was like

648
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:13.559
<v Speaker 2>was there any real pain around it? Like yeah, maybe

649
00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:16.640
<v Speaker 2>like the old system sought, but like like is it is?

650
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:19.079
<v Speaker 2>Is the new system so much better in so many

651
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:21.640
<v Speaker 2>ways that like I will take six hours out of

652
00:31:21.640 --> 00:31:24.319
<v Speaker 2>my week to migrate my you know, my repos over

653
00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:27.519
<v Speaker 2>to this new CI process Like maybe not, And so

654
00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:31.680
<v Speaker 2>like either how do you make it super simple for

655
00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:34.079
<v Speaker 2>me to migrate like a click of a button maybe

656
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:37.839
<v Speaker 2>an IDP or it's so much better? Or like I

657
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:40.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, went out and researched with my my developer

658
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:42.680
<v Speaker 2>teams and asked them what the what the pain is

659
00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:45.319
<v Speaker 2>or saw metrics like you know, it's not just about

660
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:48.559
<v Speaker 2>I think, you know, maybe a hot take, but I

661
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:51.240
<v Speaker 2>think a lot of organizations are overdoing it on the surveys,

662
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:54.440
<v Speaker 2>Like surveys are useful, but you know, if you ask

663
00:31:54.519 --> 00:31:56.599
<v Speaker 2>what people what their problem is and what the data says,

664
00:31:56.640 --> 00:31:59.279
<v Speaker 2>there's generally two very different things. And so like a

665
00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:02.119
<v Speaker 2>combination of data and outcomes and surveys and all those

666
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:05.400
<v Speaker 2>things are important. But like you know, going and talking

667
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:07.319
<v Speaker 2>to your developers like hey, what do you what do

668
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:09.680
<v Speaker 2>you do all day? Like we know, what what is

669
00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:11.880
<v Speaker 2>your experience on this thing? You know, you know, you

670
00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:14.079
<v Speaker 2>have all these requirements from security team, like how are

671
00:32:14.119 --> 00:32:16.799
<v Speaker 2>you fulfilling those? What does that process look like? You know,

672
00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:18.440
<v Speaker 2>what is the pain point for you? And all this stuff?

673
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:20.160
<v Speaker 2>And like then you start to realize like, oh, man,

674
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:22.200
<v Speaker 2>like I'm starting to see a theme in this particular

675
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:24.319
<v Speaker 2>part of the process, Like that's where I should really focus.

676
00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:27.640
<v Speaker 2>And it's It's interesting because a lot of platform and

677
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:31.240
<v Speaker 2>DevOps teams have been given this charter like go figure

678
00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:34.240
<v Speaker 2>out developer experience and platform stuff, and that is like

679
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:36.079
<v Speaker 2>that is a product question at the end of the day,

680
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:38.359
<v Speaker 2>like you have to think like a product manager, but

681
00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:40.480
<v Speaker 2>a lot of platform teams or DevOps teams are not

682
00:32:40.519 --> 00:32:43.920
<v Speaker 2>assigned a product manager, and so you're expecting, you know,

683
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:47.480
<v Speaker 2>these new platform teams to like piece together. They're like

684
00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:51.039
<v Speaker 2>platform skills and like devop skills and all these things

685
00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:53.599
<v Speaker 2>and like somehow like magically learned product management and all

686
00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:55.640
<v Speaker 2>this stuff and like figure out the best platform. And

687
00:32:55.839 --> 00:32:58.359
<v Speaker 2>it's it's like a tall order to ask. I gave

688
00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:00.440
<v Speaker 2>a talk about this at Reineman because it's like such

689
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:03.480
<v Speaker 2>an important thing. Like I think platform engineers really need

690
00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:06.039
<v Speaker 2>to think about the same way that a product manager

691
00:33:06.039 --> 00:33:07.559
<v Speaker 2>would do. Right, It's like it's not just all, let

692
00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:09.720
<v Speaker 2>me just build a really cool product. It's like what

693
00:33:09.799 --> 00:33:10.960
<v Speaker 2>is the point of this product? Like what does the

694
00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:13.039
<v Speaker 2>business care about? What is the outcome that they're trying

695
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:15.960
<v Speaker 2>to drive towards. What is the foundation that we need

696
00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:18.680
<v Speaker 2>to build, and how does this platform help us achieve

697
00:33:18.680 --> 00:33:21.119
<v Speaker 2>that outcome? Because you know, I think we see this

698
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:24.359
<v Speaker 2>a lot like injuring leaders or like especially non technical leaders,

699
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:26.480
<v Speaker 2>but look at teams like platform teams, thedop ops and

700
00:33:26.680 --> 00:33:28.400
<v Speaker 2>like what is this team doing? Like what do they

701
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:29.880
<v Speaker 2>do all day? Like it's easy to point out our

702
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:32.920
<v Speaker 2>product team and say, like, yep, they ship eighteen features

703
00:33:32.960 --> 00:33:34.759
<v Speaker 2>and I know exactly I saw that in the UI,

704
00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:36.599
<v Speaker 2>and my sales team is able to sell it, but

705
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:39.440
<v Speaker 2>the platform team is much harder to like quantify the

706
00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:41.759
<v Speaker 2>impact of that and so being able to tie it

707
00:33:41.799 --> 00:33:45.599
<v Speaker 2>to some like bigger business outcome is so so important

708
00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:48.480
<v Speaker 2>to like get that time and energy and resources to

709
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:50.039
<v Speaker 2>like keep investing in the platform.

710
00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:53.119
<v Speaker 1>The right way for sure. Yeah, and especially like if

711
00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:55.480
<v Speaker 1>you try to pull the platform team, like so many

712
00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:58.880
<v Speaker 1>of us are just like grumpy and skeptical. So like

713
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:01.279
<v Speaker 1>if you start asking as quickquestions were like, what what

714
00:34:01.319 --> 00:34:04.240
<v Speaker 1>do you want? H's this going? Just tell me what's

715
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:06.319
<v Speaker 1>broken and I'll go fix it. Otherwise go away?

716
00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:10.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah exactly exactly one percent.

717
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:21.960
<v Speaker 1>Cool. Yeah, So, like one of the things that successful

718
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:26.199
<v Speaker 1>startups do really well is fail fast, you know. And

719
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:29.760
<v Speaker 1>there's like there's that quote from Zuckerberg a long time ago,

720
00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:35.239
<v Speaker 1>move fast and break things, which I tend to disagree

721
00:34:35.320 --> 00:34:39.000
<v Speaker 1>with because you know, it's like are we moving fast? Yes?

722
00:34:39.159 --> 00:34:42.440
<v Speaker 1>Are we breaking things? Yes? Are those two things related?

723
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:46.400
<v Speaker 1>I have no idea, you know, because like I could,

724
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:49.880
<v Speaker 1>I could break something and it maybe six months before

725
00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:53.480
<v Speaker 1>we notice that it's broken. And so I like the

726
00:34:53.559 --> 00:34:55.840
<v Speaker 1>term fail fast a lot better because it implies a

727
00:34:55.880 --> 00:34:59.960
<v Speaker 1>feedback loop that you're actively trying to make what you're

728
00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:03.239
<v Speaker 1>currently working on fail, not something that's been working for

729
00:35:03.320 --> 00:35:07.039
<v Speaker 1>six months. But anyway, with fail fast, I think that's

730
00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:10.079
<v Speaker 1>one of the key, one of the best ways to

731
00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:14.639
<v Speaker 1>figure out what your customers really want quickly. And in

732
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:18.199
<v Speaker 1>the case of an IDP, like the customers are the

733
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:23.760
<v Speaker 1>rest of the engineering org. So what kind of initiatives

734
00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:27.280
<v Speaker 1>can you start with for an IDP that lend you

735
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:29.960
<v Speaker 1>lend you to a fill fast mode of operation.

736
00:35:31.159 --> 00:35:34.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is something we've learned the hard way over

737
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:40.159
<v Speaker 2>many years of IDP rollouts. I think the most important

738
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:42.280
<v Speaker 2>thing and this is this is true for like product,

739
00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:45.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, kind of like failing fast. The most important

740
00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:50.480
<v Speaker 2>thing about failing fast is to deliver incremental changes, right,

741
00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:53.559
<v Speaker 2>Like you don't ship a ginormous thing and spend six

742
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:55.800
<v Speaker 2>months building this out and then fail Like, that's not

743
00:35:55.880 --> 00:35:59.440
<v Speaker 2>failing fast. It's like try small thing generally, like move

744
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:01.119
<v Speaker 2>in the direction of the problem, trying to solve, see

745
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:02.880
<v Speaker 2>if it works, and then like it doesn't work, try

746
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:06.599
<v Speaker 2>a different approach. And I think for some reason, I

747
00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:08.440
<v Speaker 2>guests thrown out the window for a lot of IDP

748
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:11.039
<v Speaker 2>initiatives where like, oh my god, IDP can do a

749
00:36:11.079 --> 00:36:13.079
<v Speaker 2>thousand things, let me go do everything. I'm gonna build

750
00:36:13.079 --> 00:36:15.159
<v Speaker 2>the catalog I'm gonna build the self service, I'm gonna

751
00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:16.960
<v Speaker 2>do all these things, and like you're rolling the ocean

752
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:19.159
<v Speaker 2>and then everything fails, you're like, it must be the IDP,

753
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:22.239
<v Speaker 2>and it's like, it's not the IDP. It's like, I

754
00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:24.280
<v Speaker 2>think that all the things you tried probably didn't work.

755
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:26.679
<v Speaker 2>And so I think the thing that we generally say

756
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:30.360
<v Speaker 2>is when you're rolling in an IDP, start by taking

757
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:33.719
<v Speaker 2>something that you're already doing and making it better. Like,

758
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:38.840
<v Speaker 2>don't try to introduce net new tooling or process or stuff,

759
00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:42.159
<v Speaker 2>because you're trying to change behavior at that point and

760
00:36:42.199 --> 00:36:44.440
<v Speaker 2>that is really hard. But instead, if you can take

761
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:48.079
<v Speaker 2>something that people are already doing but it's made better

762
00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:50.800
<v Speaker 2>by an IDP, that will help you iterate a lot faster,

763
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:53.039
<v Speaker 2>Like I know we have to do this anyway, I

764
00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:55.880
<v Speaker 2>know it sucks. I will iterate against this one thing

765
00:36:55.880 --> 00:36:57.519
<v Speaker 2>that I know we are doing and make that better

766
00:36:57.599 --> 00:36:59.760
<v Speaker 2>until people tell me it's better, which is a much

767
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:02.360
<v Speaker 2>easy your proposition than let me go and invent a

768
00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:04.079
<v Speaker 2>whole new thing that we've never done before and then

769
00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:06.320
<v Speaker 2>figure out how to make that work, which is like

770
00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:09.199
<v Speaker 2>the difference between taking an existing product that is like

771
00:37:09.239 --> 00:37:11.719
<v Speaker 2>selling decently well in the market and like iterating on

772
00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:13.599
<v Speaker 2>it versus let me go and build a whole new

773
00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:16.039
<v Speaker 2>product line that I have no idea people want this thing,

774
00:37:16.360 --> 00:37:18.239
<v Speaker 2>and then iterate on it and maybe the entire company

775
00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:20.480
<v Speaker 2>falls apart, you know, and so like that, like that

776
00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:23.280
<v Speaker 2>is how we think about IDPs, and so pressure readiness

777
00:37:23.320 --> 00:37:25.239
<v Speaker 2>is a great example of that, because it's like a

778
00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:28.360
<v Speaker 2>thing that most organizations do and it's usually pretty painful.

779
00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:30.920
<v Speaker 2>And so can you invest in your automation and tooling

780
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:33.599
<v Speaker 2>your IDP to solve that very one thing and solve

781
00:37:33.639 --> 00:37:36.000
<v Speaker 2>that for every persona like, solve it for the SRA team,

782
00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:39.599
<v Speaker 2>solve it for developers, solve it for leaders, and everyone's like, yep,

783
00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:41.360
<v Speaker 2>I get the point of the IDP, and this is

784
00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:43.159
<v Speaker 2>so much better than what we were doing before. What

785
00:37:43.239 --> 00:37:45.360
<v Speaker 2>else can we do now with the IDP or the

786
00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:47.920
<v Speaker 2>same thing If you have a very manual like self

787
00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:50.440
<v Speaker 2>service process, If you don't have a self service Golden

788
00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:53.199
<v Speaker 2>path process at all any way, shape or form, it's

789
00:37:53.239 --> 00:37:56.400
<v Speaker 2>probably difficult to start there. But if you have like

790
00:37:56.440 --> 00:37:59.239
<v Speaker 2>a semblance of that process, then investing in that can

791
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:01.320
<v Speaker 2>be much better. Only if you can tie to some

792
00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:03.159
<v Speaker 2>sort of business outcome, so you can say, like, you know,

793
00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:07.000
<v Speaker 2>leadership team is really focused on deploy frequency or you know,

794
00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:10.000
<v Speaker 2>more innovation. It's like, okay, well that translates into the

795
00:38:10.039 --> 00:38:12.519
<v Speaker 2>self service thing that developers already doing. So I'm going

796
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:14.320
<v Speaker 2>to showcase that one thing and iterate on that really

797
00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:17.480
<v Speaker 2>rapidly until I show something valuable. So like being able

798
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:20.239
<v Speaker 2>to like take a kind of like a single thread

799
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:24.599
<v Speaker 2>through the entire organization across personas is like the way

800
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:27.760
<v Speaker 2>to fail fast because you're working towards something specific and

801
00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:29.360
<v Speaker 2>iterating very quickly against that.

802
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:33.320
<v Speaker 1>Right on. Cool, And I think it also is just

803
00:38:33.320 --> 00:38:36.840
<v Speaker 1>going to give you a sense of a sense of

804
00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:39.960
<v Speaker 1>control over the implementation as well. You know, because you

805
00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:43.519
<v Speaker 1>just focus on one thing, you're not constantly context switching

806
00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:49.519
<v Speaker 1>between you know, ten different implementations or ten different major

807
00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:51.000
<v Speaker 1>initiatives at the same time.

808
00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:53.360
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, exactly.

809
00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:57.400
<v Speaker 1>Cool. So what's got you excited about the current state

810
00:38:57.400 --> 00:38:58.599
<v Speaker 1>of technology these days?

811
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:08.599
<v Speaker 2>Man a lot? I think you know, it's I'm glad

812
00:39:08.679 --> 00:39:14.280
<v Speaker 2>we are generally over the conversations around what is the

813
00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:17.840
<v Speaker 2>kind of cloud technology we all want to use? Like

814
00:39:19.159 --> 00:39:22.199
<v Speaker 2>everyone agreeing on Kubernetes is like the standard for the

815
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:24.119
<v Speaker 2>most part, is like much easier because these now we

816
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:26.280
<v Speaker 2>can make it better. So I think that's obviously really exciting.

817
00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:30.639
<v Speaker 2>I think I'm sure ninety five percent of people that

818
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:34.519
<v Speaker 2>come on this podcast probably say AI, which I will

819
00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:38.079
<v Speaker 2>also say, and you know, for what it's worth, that

820
00:39:38.239 --> 00:39:40.920
<v Speaker 2>was play an AI skeptic for a while. And I think,

821
00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:43.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, some of the new models, like the reasoning

822
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:46.519
<v Speaker 2>models and stuff, are really really fascinating and I think

823
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:49.400
<v Speaker 2>we're going to see a lot of really implications around that.

824
00:39:50.199 --> 00:39:52.679
<v Speaker 2>But I don't think traditional you know, machine learning techniques

825
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:54.360
<v Speaker 2>are going away either. But I think it's really exciting

826
00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:56.880
<v Speaker 2>how much more accessible though that has become for a

827
00:39:56.920 --> 00:39:59.639
<v Speaker 2>lot of people, ourselves included. The fact that we're using

828
00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:02.400
<v Speaker 2>a common of AI and traditional machine learning techniques for

829
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:09.719
<v Speaker 2>kind of data discovery is really cool. And yeah, I

830
00:40:09.760 --> 00:40:13.039
<v Speaker 2>think the I guess the last thing I'll on technology perspective,

831
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:15.199
<v Speaker 2>at least from my lens, No, I think about like

832
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:20.880
<v Speaker 2>organizations more than technology a lot. And I think what's

833
00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:25.360
<v Speaker 2>really cool is that organizations. I feel like in the

834
00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:28.800
<v Speaker 2>last five to ten years, the way we operate, as

835
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:33.519
<v Speaker 2>in your organizations, have matured quite a lot. I think,

836
00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:36.800
<v Speaker 2>I know, I think things will keep changing for for

837
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:40.519
<v Speaker 2>some time, but it feels like for the most part,

838
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:45.440
<v Speaker 2>we've generally stabilized into kind of these different pillars of

839
00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:49.239
<v Speaker 2>injuring excellence. And you know, I think I think platform

840
00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:51.800
<v Speaker 2>engineering is here to stay. You know, I think, you know,

841
00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:55.800
<v Speaker 2>we've we went through the kind of iterations of cloud,

842
00:40:55.840 --> 00:40:58.400
<v Speaker 2>infra and DevOps and all these other things, and I

843
00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:03.119
<v Speaker 2>think platform engineering is like the right iteration of that process,

844
00:41:03.159 --> 00:41:05.199
<v Speaker 2>and I think we're gonna see I mean, I think

845
00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:07.639
<v Speaker 2>that's why we've seen it kind of subsume developer experience

846
00:41:07.639 --> 00:41:10.639
<v Speaker 2>and developer activity and all these kind of other ancillary functions.

847
00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:12.760
<v Speaker 2>I think SR here is here to stay. I think

848
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:15.159
<v Speaker 2>security is obviously here to stay. And so I think

849
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:19.079
<v Speaker 2>we've seen like injuring organizations generally stabilize on like these

850
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:21.199
<v Speaker 2>are the things that we need to invest in order

851
00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:24.320
<v Speaker 2>to enable the outcomes that we care about. And I

852
00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:26.400
<v Speaker 2>think it's exciting because now we can start to build

853
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:31.000
<v Speaker 2>like purpose built capabilities for those functions rather than like

854
00:41:31.480 --> 00:41:34.079
<v Speaker 2>trying to figure out like is this DevOps, is this

855
00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:36.480
<v Speaker 2>cloud as this platform is this infra? Like where does

856
00:41:36.519 --> 00:41:38.800
<v Speaker 2>this all fit in? And like I think, you know,

857
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:42.239
<v Speaker 2>knowing how the organizations generally interact with each other is

858
00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:45.280
<v Speaker 2>like a really powerful thing from up tooling perspective, and

859
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:47.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, tying it back to the CRM analogy from earlier,

860
00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:50.280
<v Speaker 2>it's like, I think that's why you have so many

861
00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:53.079
<v Speaker 2>interesting tools in the sales space is like for the

862
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:55.000
<v Speaker 2>most part, it's like generally stable. You know, you have

863
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:57.519
<v Speaker 2>your your sales reps. You have your sales engineers, you

864
00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:00.800
<v Speaker 2>have your account teams and your customer success people marketing people,

865
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:03.519
<v Speaker 2>and you have like your OPS teams, and like generally

866
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:05.880
<v Speaker 2>those teams work together and like that has been fairly

867
00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:09.079
<v Speaker 2>stable for like the last two decades, and so you know,

868
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:10.800
<v Speaker 2>you now have a crop of tools that I've like

869
00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:13.159
<v Speaker 2>made each of those people's lives so much better. So

870
00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:16.079
<v Speaker 2>I'm excited for that engineering and like seeing those organizations

871
00:42:16.119 --> 00:42:17.920
<v Speaker 2>stabilized means we're going to see a lot more like

872
00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:20.280
<v Speaker 2>a really interesting tools, especially with AI, so we're gonna

873
00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:22.800
<v Speaker 2>see a lot of really interesting, like purpose build tools.

874
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:25.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm excited for for that kind of next iteration of

875
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:29.360
<v Speaker 2>innovation around that From an organizational perspective.

876
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:35.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure. It's it's like we've actually gotten a

877
00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:37.800
<v Speaker 1>good answer about what we do.

878
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:39.679
<v Speaker 2>For the business exactly.

879
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:43.039
<v Speaker 1>You know, like because for such a long time, you know,

880
00:42:43.639 --> 00:42:47.360
<v Speaker 1>we were it was just everything about our industry was

881
00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:50.280
<v Speaker 1>just a cost center, you know, and if if companies

882
00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:53.760
<v Speaker 1>could just due away with it completely, they would. And

883
00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:58.239
<v Speaker 1>we saw that a lot in the the late nineties

884
00:42:58.239 --> 00:43:01.840
<v Speaker 1>and early two thousands without so we're seeing to you know,

885
00:43:01.960 --> 00:43:06.280
<v Speaker 1>India and other countries because it was just like, Okay,

886
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:08.159
<v Speaker 1>it's a cost center, so we want that cost to

887
00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:10.960
<v Speaker 1>be as small as possible. And now I feel like

888
00:43:11.039 --> 00:43:15.880
<v Speaker 1>we've got a and part of it was, you know,

889
00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:19.679
<v Speaker 1>a learning curve on us in engineering, or we had

890
00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:22.320
<v Speaker 1>to learn what we were doing for the business and

891
00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:25.480
<v Speaker 1>how we fit into that part of the business and

892
00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:28.239
<v Speaker 1>then start articulating that. And so I think we got

893
00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:32.199
<v Speaker 1>better at that. And uh, I think another interesting analogy

894
00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:35.559
<v Speaker 1>that applies to that is like looking at the automotive industry.

895
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:40.079
<v Speaker 1>You know, whenever they first created automobiles, you know, it

896
00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:42.920
<v Speaker 1>was just guys in a shop somewhere are building stuff,

897
00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:46.000
<v Speaker 1>putting parts together by hand, and then they came up

898
00:43:46.039 --> 00:43:48.760
<v Speaker 1>with the assembly line, you know, and then once you

899
00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:53.360
<v Speaker 1>had the assembly line, you could start creating industries that

900
00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:56.760
<v Speaker 1>fed products into the assembly line, and you had then

901
00:43:56.800 --> 00:44:00.760
<v Speaker 1>you had just in time manufacturing and that kind of stuff.

902
00:44:00.760 --> 00:44:03.840
<v Speaker 1>So I think it's a very similar pattern that we've

903
00:44:03.880 --> 00:44:08.760
<v Speaker 1>seen over the last few decades in engineering. So same pattern,

904
00:44:08.840 --> 00:44:11.880
<v Speaker 1>just on a much more accelerated timeline exactly.

905
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:15.920
<v Speaker 2>And I think that analogia works really well because we

906
00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:20.039
<v Speaker 2>really saw big improvements in the methodologies and the technology

907
00:44:20.039 --> 00:44:25.679
<v Speaker 2>around manufacturing when organizations started to see manifact like the

908
00:44:25.719 --> 00:44:29.639
<v Speaker 2>way they manufacturing and manufacturing process as a competitive advantage, right,

909
00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:31.559
<v Speaker 2>was not just like it was just a thing that

910
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:33.320
<v Speaker 2>we have to do to like ship, like to build

911
00:44:33.320 --> 00:44:35.679
<v Speaker 2>a build damn things. It's like, now, if we do

912
00:44:35.719 --> 00:44:37.760
<v Speaker 2>it right and we invest in it, it is actually

913
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:41.000
<v Speaker 2>a competitive advantage. And we see you know, companies like

914
00:44:41.239 --> 00:44:43.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, Toyota or even Tesla, you know, investing in

915
00:44:43.880 --> 00:44:48.320
<v Speaker 2>like automation really seeing the manufacturing line as a competitive advantage.

916
00:44:48.440 --> 00:44:50.360
<v Speaker 2>And I think software is the exact same way. And

917
00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:53.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, when we talk about it internally, that's what

918
00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:55.719
<v Speaker 2>that's how we talk about it is like our ideal

919
00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:59.760
<v Speaker 2>customer is a software organization is a company that views

920
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:04.119
<v Speaker 2>software as a competitive advantage. And more and more organizations

921
00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:08.159
<v Speaker 2>see it that way because you know, like software thing

922
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:10.800
<v Speaker 2>in the world, and uh, you know, we've all heard

923
00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:13.920
<v Speaker 2>those those those lines. But if you see software engineering

924
00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:17.320
<v Speaker 2>as a competitive advantage, then of course you're going to

925
00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:19.760
<v Speaker 2>do everything in your power to make that function as

926
00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:23.360
<v Speaker 2>productive and uh, you know, outcome driven as possible, and

927
00:45:23.800 --> 00:45:26.360
<v Speaker 2>that lends itself really well to IDPs and platform engineering

928
00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:28.480
<v Speaker 2>and all these other things, and so like, of course

929
00:45:28.519 --> 00:45:31.159
<v Speaker 2>you would invest in the right teams and tools and

930
00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:34.480
<v Speaker 2>process to make those teams move as quickly and as

931
00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:38.280
<v Speaker 2>efficiently as possible. So yeah, it's been it's been a

932
00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:41.239
<v Speaker 2>very interesting transition for that purpose. And like even you

933
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:44.239
<v Speaker 2>see this with like with offshore teams. A lot of

934
00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:47.199
<v Speaker 2>our customers have offshore teams still in India and things

935
00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:49.599
<v Speaker 2>like that, but the way they see those teams has

936
00:45:49.679 --> 00:45:53.639
<v Speaker 2>changed drastically. Like you know, people are constantly flying out

937
00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:56.159
<v Speaker 2>to go and visit those teams, and they're building beautiful

938
00:45:56.199 --> 00:45:59.119
<v Speaker 2>campuses in India, and like they see those teams as

939
00:45:59.159 --> 00:46:02.559
<v Speaker 2>part of the strategy versus just like oh, it's just

940
00:46:02.679 --> 00:46:04.679
<v Speaker 2>under cost center. So it's like, hey, how do we

941
00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:08.199
<v Speaker 2>enable those teams that are you know, thirteen hours away

942
00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:10.039
<v Speaker 2>from a time zone perspective? How do we help them

943
00:46:10.119 --> 00:46:12.880
<v Speaker 2>operate really well and independently and put it in the

944
00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:15.760
<v Speaker 2>right processes so that they can move quickly. And again like,

945
00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:19.960
<v Speaker 2>those are those maybe things that you would have done

946
00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:22.800
<v Speaker 2>if you only saw them as a cost center and

947
00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:25.199
<v Speaker 2>like a way to cut costs, But like the framing

948
00:46:25.239 --> 00:46:27.800
<v Speaker 2>of it changes a lot when you think about software

949
00:46:27.800 --> 00:46:29.760
<v Speaker 2>as a competitive advantage. Like the way you invest in

950
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:32.199
<v Speaker 2>the tooling and the platform to let those teams move

951
00:46:32.199 --> 00:46:35.159
<v Speaker 2>autonomously and quickly is very very different, and we're seeing

952
00:46:35.159 --> 00:46:37.039
<v Speaker 2>that in a lot of our customers and it's been

953
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:38.199
<v Speaker 2>really really cool to see.

954
00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:41.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think one of the really strong indicators of

955
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:44.679
<v Speaker 1>that shift in philosophy has been some of the companies

956
00:46:45.079 --> 00:46:51.559
<v Speaker 1>adopting like a global pay strategy where they're no longer

957
00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:56.039
<v Speaker 1>paying a competitive salary based on where that individual is,

958
00:46:56.199 --> 00:46:58.960
<v Speaker 1>or saying this is a competitive salary no matter where

959
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:02.360
<v Speaker 1>you are in the world. If you're working at that

960
00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:05.280
<v Speaker 1>role in our company, this is a salary you're going

961
00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:07.559
<v Speaker 1>to receive regardless of where you live. And I think

962
00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:11.320
<v Speaker 1>that's a true That's that's the company, you know, to

963
00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:13.679
<v Speaker 1>use the old phrase putting their money where their mouth is.

964
00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:16.679
<v Speaker 1>That's them saying, yes, we value this position and we're

965
00:47:16.679 --> 00:47:19.480
<v Speaker 1>willing to pay for it. Because of the benefits that

966
00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:20.880
<v Speaker 1>we get as an organization.

967
00:47:21.760 --> 00:47:23.639
<v Speaker 2>That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

968
00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:28.719
<v Speaker 1>So you're in San Diego, right, I am right on,

969
00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:30.000
<v Speaker 1>such a beautiful town.

970
00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:32.480
<v Speaker 2>I love it. I went I went to undergrad here.

971
00:47:32.320 --> 00:47:35.960
<v Speaker 2>I grew up in the bar area, Okay, and went

972
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:39.719
<v Speaker 2>to undergrad at UCSD and moved back to the Bay

973
00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:42.880
<v Speaker 2>worked there for a few years, and then, like everyone

974
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:44.639
<v Speaker 2>else during COVID, I was like, why would I not

975
00:47:44.679 --> 00:47:49.239
<v Speaker 2>go back to a sunny, beachy town to move straight

976
00:47:49.280 --> 00:47:49.760
<v Speaker 2>back here?

977
00:47:51.719 --> 00:47:54.719
<v Speaker 1>So is QRTEX still remote? We are.

978
00:47:55.599 --> 00:47:57.800
<v Speaker 2>We have people all over the world at this point,

979
00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:00.440
<v Speaker 2>and we just opened up an office and New York.

980
00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:02.840
<v Speaker 2>We have quite a few people out there. But there's

981
00:48:02.840 --> 00:48:05.800
<v Speaker 2>no like RTO or anything like that. It's just just

982
00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:07.599
<v Speaker 2>nice to have a place for people to connect and

983
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:09.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, hold customer events and all that kind of stuff.

984
00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:13.360
<v Speaker 2>But we have people throughout the US, people in Europe,

985
00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:16.239
<v Speaker 2>people in Apac and so on. So definitely a global

986
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:17.920
<v Speaker 2>organization right on.

987
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:26.840
<v Speaker 1>Cool. What do you do, like like planned events or

988
00:48:26.880 --> 00:48:30.800
<v Speaker 1>get together is to bring folks together at at regular intervals.

989
00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:31.559
<v Speaker 1>We do.

990
00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:34.079
<v Speaker 2>We're very very intentional about that. So we do two

991
00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:38.199
<v Speaker 2>all company events or fly everyone out. So it's actually

992
00:48:38.199 --> 00:48:40.840
<v Speaker 2>probably more expensive than just having a couple offices, to

993
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:45.280
<v Speaker 2>be honest, but yeah, you know, the the talent arbitrage

994
00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:47.760
<v Speaker 2>of hiring remote and like the productivity gains are like

995
00:48:47.800 --> 00:48:50.679
<v Speaker 2>so high that I think it's still valuable. And so

996
00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:53.119
<v Speaker 2>we we will fly everybody out to a single place.

997
00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:57.760
<v Speaker 2>So in February we do like our company company kickoff

998
00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:01.239
<v Speaker 2>for the year and holiday park, so we actually for

999
00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:04.199
<v Speaker 2>that one will fly out everyone's partners or spouses and

1000
00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:07.880
<v Speaker 2>plus ones for the holiday party, which is really nice

1001
00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:10.719
<v Speaker 2>to get to know everyone and like really you know,

1002
00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:14.760
<v Speaker 2>meet everyone in person. And then we have like you know,

1003
00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:17.599
<v Speaker 2>three days of working sessions and all hands and team

1004
00:49:17.639 --> 00:49:20.119
<v Speaker 2>bonding activities and all that stuff. So that one's usually

1005
00:49:20.119 --> 00:49:21.559
<v Speaker 2>in New York, and then we do a second one

1006
00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:24.199
<v Speaker 2>in the fall. That one's usually in San Diego because

1007
00:49:24.199 --> 00:49:26.159
<v Speaker 2>the weather is obviously so nice here during that time,

1008
00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:28.480
<v Speaker 2>So we fly everyone out for that one, and then

1009
00:49:28.519 --> 00:49:30.639
<v Speaker 2>we do a bunch of like smaller events throughout the year.

1010
00:49:30.679 --> 00:49:33.599
<v Speaker 2>So like for big project kickoffs, you know, injuring, teams

1011
00:49:33.639 --> 00:49:36.599
<v Speaker 2>will meet up in person, or the sales team does

1012
00:49:36.599 --> 00:49:39.760
<v Speaker 2>their qbrs in person. We meet at conferences, there's a

1013
00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:41.599
<v Speaker 2>lot of opportunities to meet in person then obviously like

1014
00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:44.000
<v Speaker 2>ad hoc things as well, but we are very very

1015
00:49:44.039 --> 00:49:48.360
<v Speaker 2>intentional about creating those in person opportunities, especially because we're

1016
00:49:48.360 --> 00:49:48.920
<v Speaker 2>remote first.

1017
00:49:50.119 --> 00:49:54.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure, Like I think really async communication works

1018
00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:59.679
<v Speaker 1>best if you do have those in real life get togethers,

1019
00:49:59.679 --> 00:50:05.679
<v Speaker 1>because there's there's a level of bonding that happens in

1020
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:11.119
<v Speaker 1>real life that just doesn't happen whenever you're just talking

1021
00:50:11.159 --> 00:50:14.679
<v Speaker 1>to someone you know via DMS or even through video chats.

1022
00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:18.440
<v Speaker 1>You know, you just there's something something about humans that

1023
00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:22.159
<v Speaker 1>it just doesn't work unless you're standing in close proximity

1024
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:22.719
<v Speaker 1>to them.

1025
00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:28.840
<v Speaker 2>Exactly exactly, Like remote work is made ten times better

1026
00:50:29.559 --> 00:50:32.320
<v Speaker 2>after those in person events like getting to know people

1027
00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:37.480
<v Speaker 2>and you know, meet in person makes those asynchronous and

1028
00:50:37.519 --> 00:50:41.679
<v Speaker 2>synchronous online connections just that much better because you've built

1029
00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:48.239
<v Speaker 2>like a human bond with that person, which is extremely important.

1030
00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:51.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, the person is no longer just the Homer

1031
00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:54.559
<v Speaker 1>Simpson emoji and slash. It's an actual real.

1032
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:56.840
<v Speaker 2>Human there, exactly exactly.

1033
00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:02.000
<v Speaker 1>Cool. So what are the next big plans for IDPs

1034
00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:04.519
<v Speaker 1>just in general and for you at Cortex.

1035
00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:08.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I think the big thing for us

1036
00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:12.440
<v Speaker 2>is to kind of keep doubling down on this injuring

1037
00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:17.199
<v Speaker 2>excellence idea. So, like, how can Cortex be the platform

1038
00:51:17.800 --> 00:51:21.119
<v Speaker 2>to help organizations achieve a higher level level of injuring

1039
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:23.119
<v Speaker 2>excellence and how do we get people kind of thinking

1040
00:51:23.159 --> 00:51:26.360
<v Speaker 2>about this framing even more as well, Like most organizations

1041
00:51:26.360 --> 00:51:28.039
<v Speaker 2>are already doing this, and so like, how do we

1042
00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:32.360
<v Speaker 2>tie all these things together and help organizations see that outcome?

1043
00:51:32.679 --> 00:51:34.360
<v Speaker 2>And how how do we continue building the product in

1044
00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:37.519
<v Speaker 2>a way that drives towards those outcomes in many ways

1045
00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:41.960
<v Speaker 2>and you know, investing in things like you know, injuring

1046
00:51:42.199 --> 00:51:50.360
<v Speaker 2>metrics and reporting, investing in developer experience tooling, investing in automation. Yeah,

1047
00:51:50.440 --> 00:51:53.320
<v Speaker 2>really just helping kind of be that command center for

1048
00:51:53.400 --> 00:51:55.679
<v Speaker 2>injuring excellence, Like how do we help the entire organization,

1049
00:51:55.760 --> 00:51:58.760
<v Speaker 2>all the personas be better at engineering? Like that is

1050
00:51:58.800 --> 00:52:02.840
<v Speaker 2>a you know, an important distinction from I think what

1051
00:52:02.960 --> 00:52:05.679
<v Speaker 2>a lot of IDPs make, which you're really focused on

1052
00:52:05.719 --> 00:52:09.360
<v Speaker 2>just developer experience. And so I think, you know, doubling

1053
00:52:09.400 --> 00:52:11.440
<v Speaker 2>down on that from a product strategy perspective is gonna

1054
00:52:11.440 --> 00:52:13.079
<v Speaker 2>be really interesting. I'm excited to see where that goes.

1055
00:52:14.719 --> 00:52:20.800
<v Speaker 1>Do you feel like you've already picked the low hanging

1056
00:52:20.880 --> 00:52:24.519
<v Speaker 1>fruit in the industry, or do you think there's still

1057
00:52:24.679 --> 00:52:28.440
<v Speaker 1>more easy wins to be had there?

1058
00:52:29.719 --> 00:52:32.960
<v Speaker 2>I think there's a lot more, well not easy wins.

1059
00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:37.199
<v Speaker 2>I think there are obvious wins, but technology technologically complex

1060
00:52:37.239 --> 00:52:41.039
<v Speaker 2>wins which we're currently working on that unfortunately can't talk

1061
00:52:41.039 --> 00:52:43.360
<v Speaker 2>too much about but hopefully we'll be able to share

1062
00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:47.079
<v Speaker 2>in a few months. But I'm really really excited about

1063
00:52:47.079 --> 00:52:50.440
<v Speaker 2>the possibilities, Like they're the market. Yes, we've been around

1064
00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:52.159
<v Speaker 2>for you know, five and a half years now, but

1065
00:52:52.599 --> 00:52:55.199
<v Speaker 2>in the grand scheme of things, you know, going back

1066
00:52:55.199 --> 00:52:59.559
<v Speaker 2>to CRMs, CRMs have existed for like forty years, but

1067
00:52:59.719 --> 00:53:02.960
<v Speaker 2>sales teams, I've been doing general bookkeeping for like centuries

1068
00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:06.480
<v Speaker 2>probably like you know, there's like the classic you know

1069
00:53:06.519 --> 00:53:11.760
<v Speaker 2>that QNA formed uh tablet from the Sumerian civilization around

1070
00:53:12.119 --> 00:53:14.599
<v Speaker 2>like the bushels are great, and like the documentation around that,

1071
00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:17.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, on the tablet, and so like, I think

1072
00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:21.480
<v Speaker 2>sales process existed in some shape or form for like centuries.

1073
00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:24.079
<v Speaker 2>As we're kind of like speed running that process with

1074
00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:27.800
<v Speaker 2>with IDPs a little bit. But I think and so

1075
00:53:28.239 --> 00:53:30.679
<v Speaker 2>with that framing the fact that idp's have been around

1076
00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:33.440
<v Speaker 2>for like six years, and you know, I think I

1077
00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:35.840
<v Speaker 2>think we're like the longest standing at AP at this point.

1078
00:53:36.880 --> 00:53:38.559
<v Speaker 2>But like that's a drop in the bucket, you know.

1079
00:53:38.599 --> 00:53:40.559
<v Speaker 2>It's like there's like so many more things we can

1080
00:53:40.599 --> 00:53:43.559
<v Speaker 2>do with with IDPs, and I'm really really excited about

1081
00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:44.519
<v Speaker 2>the possibilities there.

1082
00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:48.639
<v Speaker 1>For sure, you're you're six years into the three thousand

1083
00:53:48.760 --> 00:53:49.719
<v Speaker 1>year journey.

1084
00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:58.400
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, exactly, exactly, We're killing it, man, exactly. Oh yeah,

1085
00:53:58.519 --> 00:53:58.800
<v Speaker 2>right on.

1086
00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:02.280
<v Speaker 1>We'll definitely have to come back on a show whenever

1087
00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:06.480
<v Speaker 1>you do drop that new feature that you can't talk

1088
00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:08.519
<v Speaker 1>about now, because I'm I'm interested in that now.

1089
00:54:08.719 --> 00:54:11.079
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, we'll definitely reach out.

1090
00:54:11.199 --> 00:54:19.760
<v Speaker 1>Right on cool Cool. So what would be what would

1091
00:54:19.760 --> 00:54:23.679
<v Speaker 1>be a great first step for someone who's wanting to

1092
00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:25.960
<v Speaker 1>check out the IDP experience.

1093
00:54:27.199 --> 00:54:30.039
<v Speaker 2>Just go to cordexa io. We have a demo on

1094
00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:32.199
<v Speaker 2>the homepage and click around, see what it looks like

1095
00:54:32.280 --> 00:54:36.840
<v Speaker 2>and get an idea of it. And we are actually

1096
00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:41.960
<v Speaker 2>hosting a variety of injuring summits injuring excellent summits throughout

1097
00:54:41.960 --> 00:54:44.480
<v Speaker 2>the world. So we have one in New York, one

1098
00:54:44.519 --> 00:54:48.480
<v Speaker 2>in Boston, one in London, and one in SF and

1099
00:54:48.519 --> 00:54:51.480
<v Speaker 2>so those are not like super IDP focused, but really

1100
00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:54.719
<v Speaker 2>focus on injuring excellence. And so if you're interested in

1101
00:54:54.760 --> 00:54:57.159
<v Speaker 2>kind of how it all fits in, come up, come

1102
00:54:57.239 --> 00:54:59.679
<v Speaker 2>through to one of those those summits, meet a lot

1103
00:54:59.679 --> 00:55:03.199
<v Speaker 2>of other drink leaders and practitioners. I'm really excited for those.

1104
00:55:03.519 --> 00:55:07.119
<v Speaker 2>And of course IDP Con we held the first one

1105
00:55:07.199 --> 00:55:09.480
<v Speaker 2>last year, massive success. I think we had like three

1106
00:55:09.559 --> 00:55:12.920
<v Speaker 2>hundred people or something close to that turnout in New York.

1107
00:55:13.239 --> 00:55:16.079
<v Speaker 2>So we're holding it even bigger and better this year.

1108
00:55:17.199 --> 00:55:19.840
<v Speaker 2>So all things IDPs, not just Cortex, but all things

1109
00:55:19.880 --> 00:55:22.719
<v Speaker 2>IDPs IDP com later this year are probably great.

1110
00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:25.039
<v Speaker 1>Great example, right on, is that going to be in

1111
00:55:25.079 --> 00:55:28.880
<v Speaker 1>New York again? Yeah? All right, cool? Cool.

1112
00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:31.119
<v Speaker 2>We are looking for speakers as well, So.

1113
00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:40.119
<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, is there a CFP form on your website?

1114
00:55:40.480 --> 00:55:45.719
<v Speaker 2>There is, I believe it's on IDP CON's website, which

1115
00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:48.599
<v Speaker 2>is IDP con dot com. And there is an apply

1116
00:55:48.639 --> 00:55:50.679
<v Speaker 2>to speak one in so looking for any and all

1117
00:55:50.840 --> 00:55:51.559
<v Speaker 2>cfps for.

1118
00:55:51.559 --> 00:55:55.159
<v Speaker 1>That, right on? Cool, So that'd be cool. Check out

1119
00:55:55.199 --> 00:56:00.920
<v Speaker 1>the conference apply to speak. I always courage people to

1120
00:56:01.960 --> 00:56:04.679
<v Speaker 1>apply for speaking positions.

1121
00:56:05.239 --> 00:56:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Great opportunities.

1122
00:56:06.079 --> 00:56:09.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is. It's scary as hell. The first time,

1123
00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:11.840
<v Speaker 1>but then once you do it, you're like, oh, all right,

1124
00:56:12.159 --> 00:56:12.639
<v Speaker 1>I get.

1125
00:56:12.519 --> 00:56:14.840
<v Speaker 2>It now exactly, and it's it's full time on other

1126
00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:16.679
<v Speaker 2>people who could get what you're doing, and like, I

1127
00:56:16.760 --> 00:56:18.480
<v Speaker 2>want to talk more about it as well, Like it's

1128
00:56:18.519 --> 00:56:22.280
<v Speaker 2>a being able to have interesting conversations with practitioners after

1129
00:56:22.280 --> 00:56:24.239
<v Speaker 2>your talk is like it's always cool.

1130
00:56:25.079 --> 00:56:27.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure. One of the things for me because

1131
00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:33.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm not like a super social person, like I yeah,

1132
00:56:33.960 --> 00:56:35.840
<v Speaker 1>I'm just not a social person. But when I started

1133
00:56:35.840 --> 00:56:40.159
<v Speaker 1>giving conference talks, I did it mostly just as a

1134
00:56:40.239 --> 00:56:45.039
<v Speaker 1>challenge to myself. But then I found that by being

1135
00:56:45.079 --> 00:56:48.679
<v Speaker 1>a speaker there, I never had to struggle with what

1136
00:56:48.880 --> 00:56:52.800
<v Speaker 1>to say to strangers because everyone always had like a

1137
00:56:52.920 --> 00:56:55.119
<v Speaker 1>question or a comment or some way to start the

1138
00:56:55.159 --> 00:56:58.639
<v Speaker 1>conversation about the talk that I gave. It's like, oh, okay,

1139
00:56:58.760 --> 00:57:02.960
<v Speaker 1>well let's it's not near as intimidating or as stressful

1140
00:57:02.960 --> 00:57:05.960
<v Speaker 1>as I was expecting it to be. I encourage people

1141
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:07.920
<v Speaker 1>to Yeah, I encourage people to do it just for

1142
00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:11.000
<v Speaker 1>that reason alone, and it's just great for their career

1143
00:57:11.039 --> 00:57:12.800
<v Speaker 1>as well. You know, you put it on your resume

1144
00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:14.760
<v Speaker 1>next time you're applying for a job. Oh yeah, it

1145
00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:18.840
<v Speaker 1>was a speaker here. It's just like instant credibility, only

1146
00:57:18.880 --> 00:57:23.719
<v Speaker 1>good things. Yeah, for sure. Cool. Well, what do you

1147
00:57:23.719 --> 00:57:25.079
<v Speaker 1>say we move on to some pics.

1148
00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:27.320
<v Speaker 2>Let's do it all right?

1149
00:57:27.480 --> 00:57:32.599
<v Speaker 1>Cool? So this week I'm picking a book that I've

1150
00:57:32.840 --> 00:57:40.159
<v Speaker 1>just started reading, Plato five Dialogues. And you know, I'll

1151
00:57:40.199 --> 00:57:41.639
<v Speaker 1>be honest here, I grew up in Texas in the

1152
00:57:41.719 --> 00:57:44.119
<v Speaker 1>seventies and eighties, So I don't think anyone's going to

1153
00:57:44.159 --> 00:57:47.199
<v Speaker 1>be shocked whenever I say I had never read Plato before,

1154
00:57:48.320 --> 00:57:51.079
<v Speaker 1>Like I've read the back of a Coup's Light Can

1155
00:57:51.159 --> 00:57:53.320
<v Speaker 1>thousands of times, but this is my first time. I'm

1156
00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:57.840
<v Speaker 1>reading Plato, but I haven't read them. It's cool because

1157
00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:00.639
<v Speaker 1>the book, oddly enough, written by play Out, It's got

1158
00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:04.159
<v Speaker 1>nothing to do with him. It's mostly about Socrates. And

1159
00:58:04.199 --> 00:58:06.599
<v Speaker 1>the reason I'm picking it is because I learned that

1160
00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:12.280
<v Speaker 1>Socrates seems to just be a big fucking troll. He

1161
00:58:12.320 --> 00:58:16.119
<v Speaker 1>didn't really do any well, just that he would just

1162
00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:19.159
<v Speaker 1>engage in arguments with people just for the sake of

1163
00:58:19.199 --> 00:58:22.559
<v Speaker 1>screwing with them. You know, the one that I read yesterday.

1164
00:58:23.320 --> 00:58:25.559
<v Speaker 1>He was talking with this guy about the difference between

1165
00:58:25.679 --> 00:58:30.599
<v Speaker 1>piety and impiety and gets his definition from it. And

1166
00:58:30.599 --> 00:58:34.000
<v Speaker 1>then goes through some different examples and then slowly walks

1167
00:58:34.039 --> 00:58:36.920
<v Speaker 1>the guy around through to the point where the guy

1168
00:58:37.039 --> 00:58:40.440
<v Speaker 1>changes his definitions of what those terms mean. He's like, oh,

1169
00:58:40.519 --> 00:58:42.239
<v Speaker 1>so now you don't know what they mean, because now

1170
00:58:42.280 --> 00:58:44.199
<v Speaker 1>you're saying it's the exact opposite of what you just

1171
00:58:44.239 --> 00:58:46.480
<v Speaker 1>told me. And it's like, wait a minute, you just

1172
00:58:47.119 --> 00:58:50.639
<v Speaker 1>this whole time. Yeah, he's Socrates.

1173
00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:53.599
<v Speaker 2>The original, just to play Devil's adificate guy.

1174
00:58:54.079 --> 00:58:57.519
<v Speaker 1>Uh, for sure, for sure, if he were alive today,

1175
00:58:57.519 --> 00:59:04.320
<v Speaker 1>he would definitely be canceled. Oh man, So what about you?

1176
00:59:04.360 --> 00:59:06.480
<v Speaker 1>What you got for a pick this week? Oh?

1177
00:59:06.679 --> 00:59:08.280
<v Speaker 2>I was trying to think about it the whole conversation,

1178
00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:12.360
<v Speaker 2>and I actually came up with one. You know, the

1179
00:59:12.400 --> 00:59:17.159
<v Speaker 2>thing that I've been really kind of focused on recently

1180
00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:22.159
<v Speaker 2>is sleep quality. Oh yeah, it's I know, it's been

1181
00:59:22.159 --> 00:59:24.280
<v Speaker 2>in the zeitgeist for you know a couple of years,

1182
00:59:24.280 --> 00:59:28.639
<v Speaker 2>with like all the new like high fangled sleeping equipment

1183
00:59:28.719 --> 00:59:33.480
<v Speaker 2>and all these stuff. But you know, I've started wearing

1184
00:59:33.480 --> 00:59:35.559
<v Speaker 2>my Apple Watch to sleep and like tracking all my

1185
00:59:35.639 --> 00:59:39.280
<v Speaker 2>data and all this stuff and like using this just

1186
00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:41.639
<v Speaker 2>have to like track sleep data and things like that,

1187
00:59:41.719 --> 00:59:45.719
<v Speaker 2>and it's been really really interesting to see the effects

1188
00:59:45.800 --> 00:59:49.519
<v Speaker 2>of things like you know, my my dinner time and

1189
00:59:50.760 --> 00:59:54.079
<v Speaker 2>working out and all these things on sleep. But to

1190
00:59:54.119 --> 00:59:56.679
<v Speaker 2>the point of my reading. What's really interesting in what

1191
00:59:56.719 --> 01:00:01.559
<v Speaker 2>I found is more than anything else, reading before bed

1192
01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:04.559
<v Speaker 2>with you know, like dimming the lights and you know,

1193
01:00:04.639 --> 01:00:06.800
<v Speaker 2>blocking blue light and all that kind of stuff. But

1194
01:00:06.840 --> 01:00:10.719
<v Speaker 2>then reading for about fifteen minutes has had the highest

1195
01:00:11.320 --> 01:00:15.639
<v Speaker 2>significant impact on my sleep quality than anything else. And

1196
01:00:15.679 --> 01:00:18.239
<v Speaker 2>it can be I mostly read nonfiction, so it's not

1197
01:00:18.280 --> 01:00:21.519
<v Speaker 2>even like like I'm reading just like slop to turn

1198
01:00:21.559 --> 01:00:23.880
<v Speaker 2>my brain off, Like it's like interesting stuff that I'm

1199
01:00:24.199 --> 01:00:24.719
<v Speaker 2>to read.

1200
01:00:25.639 --> 01:00:27.719
<v Speaker 1>But I got some trashy romance novel.

1201
01:00:28.039 --> 01:00:30.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah exactly. I mean I'm sure that would work too.

1202
01:00:31.880 --> 01:00:35.239
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, just like reading for fifteen minutes before bed

1203
01:00:35.599 --> 01:00:39.920
<v Speaker 2>has had the most, like, uh, has the highest impact

1204
01:00:39.920 --> 01:00:43.639
<v Speaker 2>on my sleep quality I've seen in the data compared

1205
01:00:43.679 --> 01:00:46.639
<v Speaker 2>to anything else, and it's it's it is really really fascinating,

1206
01:00:46.639 --> 01:00:49.719
<v Speaker 2>and like I was a gracious reader growing up, and

1207
01:00:49.719 --> 01:00:51.400
<v Speaker 2>it's something I've been trying to get back into just

1208
01:00:51.440 --> 01:00:53.199
<v Speaker 2>like given time, it's been a nice thing to just

1209
01:00:53.239 --> 01:00:55.760
<v Speaker 2>be able to read and like you know, just get

1210
01:00:55.760 --> 01:00:59.440
<v Speaker 2>through books and stuff every day. But the impact on

1211
01:00:59.480 --> 01:01:02.679
<v Speaker 2>sleep has been incredible, Like I don't know, it's even

1212
01:01:02.719 --> 01:01:05.559
<v Speaker 2>more than like just meditating or like breathing or whatever.

1213
01:01:05.599 --> 01:01:10.880
<v Speaker 2>It's like reading has had an incredible impact. So you

1214
01:01:10.920 --> 01:01:13.800
<v Speaker 2>should think about reading that book right before you sleep.

1215
01:01:15.440 --> 01:01:20.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna test your theory because, like I my wife,

1216
01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:23.719
<v Speaker 1>you know, she's always like using her Apple Watch, you know,

1217
01:01:23.719 --> 01:01:26.559
<v Speaker 1>and she breaks down her sleep and you know, does

1218
01:01:27.159 --> 01:01:31.039
<v Speaker 1>similar to what you're describing here. So I'm gonna challenge

1219
01:01:31.079 --> 01:01:35.760
<v Speaker 1>her to read for fifteen minutes and see how that affects. Yeah,

1220
01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:37.599
<v Speaker 1>for sleep quality, I've.

1221
01:01:37.440 --> 01:01:44.119
<v Speaker 2>Seen like the highest impact on both my heart great dips,

1222
01:01:44.159 --> 01:01:46.719
<v Speaker 2>so like how how much lower does my heartbreak go

1223
01:01:46.840 --> 01:01:49.440
<v Speaker 2>and how stable is it throughout the night, as well

1224
01:01:49.599 --> 01:01:53.599
<v Speaker 2>as rem sleep cycles, Like the amount of remsleep that

1225
01:01:53.679 --> 01:01:59.000
<v Speaker 2>I get is noticeably higher. I think the last time

1226
01:01:59.000 --> 01:02:02.519
<v Speaker 2>I checked was around fourteen percent higher or something like

1227
01:02:02.559 --> 01:02:05.480
<v Speaker 2>that when I do read a night, and that just

1228
01:02:05.519 --> 01:02:08.519
<v Speaker 2>like ten minutes of reading isn't enough. So yeah, she

1229
01:02:08.519 --> 01:02:10.960
<v Speaker 2>should be able to see kind of a noticeable impact

1230
01:02:10.960 --> 01:02:14.440
<v Speaker 2>in the data for it. And so like the top

1231
01:02:14.480 --> 01:02:17.280
<v Speaker 2>two things have been like eating dinner earlier, so you

1232
01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:20.559
<v Speaker 2>get like fewer like blood sugar spike throughout the night

1233
01:02:20.880 --> 01:02:23.519
<v Speaker 2>and then reading for ten to fifteen minutes before bed

1234
01:02:23.800 --> 01:02:26.840
<v Speaker 2>have been like the two highest impact things that I

1235
01:02:26.880 --> 01:02:28.760
<v Speaker 2>have done. Because I know you can do like a

1236
01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:32.920
<v Speaker 2>lot of things with like you know, cooling mattresses and

1237
01:02:32.960 --> 01:02:35.000
<v Speaker 2>all these other things, but it's like those are like

1238
01:02:35.199 --> 01:02:38.519
<v Speaker 2>much more you know, investment oriented, but like these are

1239
01:02:38.559 --> 01:02:42.079
<v Speaker 2>like small things that everyone can do, and so I think,

1240
01:02:42.119 --> 01:02:44.119
<v Speaker 2>like that's been what's really interesting about it is like

1241
01:02:44.519 --> 01:02:50.039
<v Speaker 2>very small, what are the most tactical lifestyle changes you

1242
01:02:50.079 --> 01:02:53.519
<v Speaker 2>can make to see noticeable improvement in the data, And

1243
01:02:53.599 --> 01:02:55.119
<v Speaker 2>like these are the things that I think that I found.

1244
01:02:55.119 --> 01:02:58.800
<v Speaker 2>So it's really really really interesting. So probably to experiment

1245
01:02:58.880 --> 01:03:00.639
<v Speaker 2>more with with this kind of thing going forward.

1246
01:03:00.719 --> 01:03:03.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you can drop fifteen grand on a cooling mattress

1247
01:03:03.400 --> 01:03:06.159
<v Speaker 1>or spend fifteen minutes reading your choice, Yes.

1248
01:03:06.920 --> 01:03:10.159
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, exactly. Maybe I'll do both. I don't know, but

1249
01:03:10.440 --> 01:03:11.719
<v Speaker 2>right now, right this is good enough.

1250
01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:16.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I've seen the cooling mattresses and I was like, oh,

1251
01:03:16.119 --> 01:03:18.679
<v Speaker 1>that looks so cool, but I know, I know, I

1252
01:03:18.760 --> 01:03:19.159
<v Speaker 1>just can't.

1253
01:03:19.639 --> 01:03:23.000
<v Speaker 2>It's just the technology, the gadget geek in me that like, right, yeah,

1254
01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:27.639
<v Speaker 2>those things I don't need that. I just read a

1255
01:03:27.679 --> 01:03:28.920
<v Speaker 2>book and it's good enough.

1256
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:36.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, especially for me, because I I feel for you,

1257
01:03:36.079 --> 01:03:39.079
<v Speaker 1>guys like you, and people like my wife, because on

1258
01:03:39.119 --> 01:03:45.679
<v Speaker 1>a really, really bad night, it'll take me like forty five,

1259
01:03:45.800 --> 01:03:48.519
<v Speaker 1>maybe fifty seconds to hit deep sleep from the time

1260
01:03:48.599 --> 01:03:49.400
<v Speaker 1>I laid down.

1261
01:03:52.199 --> 01:03:54.559
<v Speaker 2>Oh man, I am so so jealous.

1262
01:03:55.440 --> 01:03:59.079
<v Speaker 1>I think it comes Oh my camera just died, but

1263
01:03:59.360 --> 01:04:02.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm still here. I think it comes back to early

1264
01:04:03.519 --> 01:04:07.760
<v Speaker 1>after I left high school, I joined the military, and

1265
01:04:08.280 --> 01:04:11.119
<v Speaker 1>on my first I was in the Navy, and my

1266
01:04:11.159 --> 01:04:15.159
<v Speaker 1>first trip out to see my bunk was right underneath

1267
01:04:15.159 --> 01:04:17.400
<v Speaker 1>the flight deck on a carrier, and they were doing

1268
01:04:17.440 --> 01:04:20.440
<v Speaker 1>flight operations the whole time, which is a I can't

1269
01:04:20.440 --> 01:04:24.599
<v Speaker 1>remember how much it weighs, but there's like this huge

1270
01:04:24.639 --> 01:04:29.280
<v Speaker 1>sled underneath the flight deck that slings the jets off

1271
01:04:29.320 --> 01:04:31.679
<v Speaker 1>the end and then it you know, they have to

1272
01:04:31.679 --> 01:04:34.840
<v Speaker 1>bring it to a stop before it hits the end

1273
01:04:34.840 --> 01:04:37.199
<v Speaker 1>of the aircraft carrier for obvious reasons, and so this

1274
01:04:37.280 --> 01:04:39.840
<v Speaker 1>thing's like going back and forth over your head the

1275
01:04:39.960 --> 01:04:44.079
<v Speaker 1>entire time you down there, and then you know they're like, hey,

1276
01:04:44.119 --> 01:04:45.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, this is your time to sleep. You can

1277
01:04:45.920 --> 01:04:48.239
<v Speaker 1>sleep or not sleep. It's entirely up to you. So

1278
01:04:48.960 --> 01:04:50.679
<v Speaker 1>I think that might have set some habits for me

1279
01:04:50.800 --> 01:04:52.280
<v Speaker 1>that are still working for the outfit.

1280
01:04:52.360 --> 01:04:56.639
<v Speaker 2>Now. Yeah, you can probably sleep through anything, now, I bet.

1281
01:04:56.559 --> 01:05:02.119
<v Speaker 1>Huh for sure. Yeah, it's weird through anything unless it's

1282
01:05:02.159 --> 01:05:04.159
<v Speaker 1>a noise it's not supposed to be there. Like I

1283
01:05:04.159 --> 01:05:08.960
<v Speaker 1>can sleep through thunderstorms and lightning and wind and trucks

1284
01:05:09.039 --> 01:05:12.599
<v Speaker 1>driving by, But the minute that there's a single noise

1285
01:05:12.639 --> 01:05:16.239
<v Speaker 1>that's not supposed to be there, I'm instantly wide awake.

1286
01:05:16.840 --> 01:05:19.760
<v Speaker 2>Interesting, Yeah, probably your brain is probably kind of wired

1287
01:05:20.079 --> 01:05:23.320
<v Speaker 2>that way to, like I guess, filter out things that

1288
01:05:23.360 --> 01:05:27.920
<v Speaker 2>are obvious to I guess is like general background noise.

1289
01:05:28.280 --> 01:05:31.079
<v Speaker 2>So I guess this is generally a good thing. Yeah,

1290
01:05:31.079 --> 01:05:35.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm definitely much much light sleeper than that, for sure. Well,

1291
01:05:35.199 --> 01:05:37.159
<v Speaker 2>I think about idp's all along.

1292
01:05:37.280 --> 01:05:41.920
<v Speaker 1>So I've actually read a lot about how much how

1293
01:05:42.000 --> 01:05:46.239
<v Speaker 1>much our brain does filter out just to keep from

1294
01:05:46.280 --> 01:05:50.599
<v Speaker 1>overwhelming our conscious mind. Like someone I can't remember what

1295
01:05:50.599 --> 01:05:52.719
<v Speaker 1>the numbers are, but someone had like an actual data

1296
01:05:52.800 --> 01:05:56.760
<v Speaker 1>rate and it was like something like, yeah, like two

1297
01:05:57.400 --> 01:06:01.039
<v Speaker 1>megabits per second is what our consciousness can handle our

1298
01:06:01.079 --> 01:06:04.599
<v Speaker 1>subconsciousness filtering out like forty gig per second or something

1299
01:06:05.559 --> 01:06:07.559
<v Speaker 1>huge like that. And I was like, well, those are

1300
01:06:07.559 --> 01:06:09.719
<v Speaker 1>cool numbers. Not really sure how you came up with

1301
01:06:09.719 --> 01:06:13.039
<v Speaker 1>those numbers, but it's it's cool, and it had had

1302
01:06:13.079 --> 01:06:15.320
<v Speaker 1>something to do with I was doing research on psychedelics

1303
01:06:15.320 --> 01:06:17.880
<v Speaker 1>and then that was like one of the things is

1304
01:06:17.880 --> 01:06:20.719
<v Speaker 1>like psychedelics, you know, like turn that filter off for

1305
01:06:20.800 --> 01:06:25.679
<v Speaker 1>a brief period of time because over time your brain learns, oh, this,

1306
01:06:25.679 --> 01:06:27.719
<v Speaker 1>this person's not interested in this. I'm gonna filter it

1307
01:06:27.760 --> 01:06:31.000
<v Speaker 1>all out. But then psychedelics like give you access to

1308
01:06:31.039 --> 01:06:34.280
<v Speaker 1>the full menu and allow you to say no, no,

1309
01:06:34.320 --> 01:06:35.760
<v Speaker 1>don't filter this out anymore.

1310
01:06:36.719 --> 01:06:40.280
<v Speaker 2>Interesting. It's an interesting framing. Yeah, I haven't really thought

1311
01:06:40.320 --> 01:06:40.719
<v Speaker 2>about that.

1312
01:06:41.440 --> 01:06:44.920
<v Speaker 1>It's been interesting. But anyway, so if people want to

1313
01:06:44.920 --> 01:06:47.199
<v Speaker 1>get in touch with you talk more about this kind

1314
01:06:47.239 --> 01:06:49.599
<v Speaker 1>of stuff, Ganesh, what's the best way.

1315
01:06:50.400 --> 01:06:54.559
<v Speaker 2>Adamil LinkedIn or shoot me an email? Ganesha cortex on Io.

1316
01:06:55.760 --> 01:06:57.800
<v Speaker 1>All right, awesome, thank you so much for being on

1317
01:06:57.840 --> 01:07:00.000
<v Speaker 1>a show. This has been a pleasure to chat with you.

1318
01:07:00.119 --> 01:07:02.000
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having Yeah.

1319
01:07:01.840 --> 01:07:03.719
<v Speaker 1>For sure, and definitely let me know when you're ready

1320
01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:08.159
<v Speaker 1>to talk about the new hidden top secret initiatives on

1321
01:07:08.239 --> 01:07:09.159
<v Speaker 1>core text let me know.

1322
01:07:09.239 --> 01:07:11.119
<v Speaker 2>I want to have you back on I will drop

1323
01:07:11.159 --> 01:07:11.599
<v Speaker 2>you a note.

1324
01:07:11.800 --> 01:07:15.079
<v Speaker 1>Would love to all Right, cool and for everyone listening,

1325
01:07:15.119 --> 01:07:17.719
<v Speaker 1>Thank you guys for listening. Be sure and let me

1326
01:07:17.840 --> 01:07:19.719
<v Speaker 1>know what you guys want to see on the show,

1327
01:07:19.760 --> 01:07:22.559
<v Speaker 1>how you liked the episode or anything like that, and

1328
01:07:22.880 --> 01:07:23.880
<v Speaker 1>I'll see everyone next week