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Speaker 1: What's going on? Everybody? Welcome to another episode of Adventures

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and DevOps. I'm actually flying solo today. Warren and Jillian

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both had conflicts and couldn't be here for the recording,

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but I do have the CTO and co founder of

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Cortexshta Ganesh. How are you doing?

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Speaker 2: Great? Load to hear?

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Speaker 1: Awesome man, looking forward to it. So Cortex is a

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platform engineering tool, right, yes, we are an internal developmore

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right on cool? So what decisions did you make in

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your life that decided that you needed to create an

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internal developer portal?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's it's pretty funny actually, So I actually

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a lot of things. I think, let up this and

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maybe a little bit of a ramble here. So I

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went to I went to UC San Diego, and one

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of my roommates in college introduced me to another friend

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of his from high school who is now my co

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founder and CEO, and another one is my co founder

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in chief architect at Cortex. So didn't know these guys,

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and I met him in met him in undergrad. I

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graduated in my undergrad a year early, and I promise

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this will be all relevant in just a few minutes.

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I graduated undergrad a year early started working at lend Up,

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and it just so happened to work out that they

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were pulling the first service out of the monolith at

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the time. So I got to join the team that's

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pulling the first service in the monolith. So timing was impeccable.

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If I joined the year later, if I graduated on time,

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I would maybe have been on a different team. I

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wouldn't have seen that experience. And so it worked out

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that I was on this team as they were pulling

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out the first the first service, and a lot of

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the learnings that came from that ended up being I

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guess really stemming from pain, like a lot of spreadsheets,

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a lot of getting Paige at two am and it's

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some Game of Thrones character that you have no idea

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what this service does and you're like digging through confliments

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and whatnot. And for its worth, like we'd invested quite

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a bit in all the tooling and the infrastructure and

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all the stuff, and so it was like generally pretty decent.

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It wasn't even like we had, you know, ignored the

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necessary investments for MICROSOFCE architecture, but we had all this

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pain and a niche was working at Uber at the

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time with my other co founder and CEO, and we

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were just grabbing a beer and we were talking about

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like just stuff of work, and I remember asking him like, hey,

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you're a uber, Like you guys have so many micro services.

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How do you solve this, Like how do you keep

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track of owners? And he's like, dude, you just slack

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people and you just hope for the best. And so

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all that to say that if I hadn't roomed with

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the right person in college, and if I hadn't met

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these two guys and they weren't working at Uber and Toyo,

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and I hadn't joined the team that I was working

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on the first micro service coming out of the monolith.

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Because I joined at the right time, maybe Quartex wouldn't

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have happened. And so a lot of things we had

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to go right for for us to land on this idea.

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Maybe maybe I would have ended there in a different path,

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but you know, things, things work out for the best.

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So I promise it would all come together, and I

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hoped it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, that's cool. Like there was in the

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in the nineties, there was this show on PBS called Connections,

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and I can't remember the host's name. But he would

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tell like a similar story where every episode was like

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this series of events over like two hundred years and

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how it led to like the invention of some something

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that just changed civilization and it's like, wow, that's that

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was a whole lot of steps that could have steered

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that off course.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, yeah, one hundred percent. I do reasgually

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remember that show.

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Speaker 1: Cool. So, so what are the big pain points that

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an internal developer platform, like for someone who doesn't have

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an IDP, what are the things in their life that

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would make them say, oh wow, that's what that would do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think our thinking on this has actually

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changed in the last like twelve to eighteen months, and

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we'll kind of walk you through why then. When we

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first started Cortex, it was really just I don't know

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what services we have, ownership of these things is really broken.

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Let me create a system that we can put all

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this stuff into that when there's an incident or something,

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I know where to go. And I think over the

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last four years it's really changed quite a bit. And

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I think over the last eighteen months, what we believe

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is if you have any sort of initiative around engineering excellence,

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you should be thinking about an IDP and injuring excellence

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is a broad phrase, but we define it as the

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investment in kind of high performance injuring foundations to enable

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business outcomes. So when you think about any organizations that's

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investing in security or reliability practices or platform practices or

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making their systems more efficient or trying to move faster,

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those are usually like injuring foundations, Like those are things

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like if you do these things right, you will hopefully

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be able to build more features better and deliver in

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more innovation or you know, cost productions or whatever those

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things are. And I think what's interesting is a lot

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of organizations have had teams pop up around these kind

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of goals. And so you have like SR teams that

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own sec owned reliability, and you have security teams own security.

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And if you squint an organization, you kind of see

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like injuring excellence as these set of teams that don't

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really own product outcomes but own kind of engineering outcomes.

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And those happen to be our best stakeholders, like they're

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the ones that use the IDP in order to drive

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these outcomes. And so if you have a kind of

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a service oriented architecture or some sort of complex software

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ecosystem and you are looking to invest in these kind

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of engineering outcomes, then how can you do that without

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a system that is designed for that use case? And

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like the example that I always give is like a CRM,

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like any sales self respecting sales organization like would not

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be operating out of a spreadsheet or a bunch of

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confluence pages. Like imagine you went to a VP of

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sales and you're like, and they told you, oh, yeah,

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I just keep track of all my accounts and confluence pages.

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You will la from out of the room, and you know,

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a CRM is their way to codify and methodically track

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all their accounts and their opportunities and report on things

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and like make sure their sales organization is following sales

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practices and all these things. So why is engineering any different,

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Like that's what we do today, Like we have a

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bunch of confluence pages and we like just pray for

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the best. We have SRA teams and security teams who

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are trying to drive these best practices, but you don't

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have a way of methodically doing it. And so IDPs

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I think are men for organizations that are trying to

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invest in the injuring foundations to drive those outcomes and

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do so in a methodical, kind of data driven way.

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Those are our best customers. Like folks that see engineering

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and software as a competitive advantage and believe in investing

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in injuring foundations as a way to drive business outcomes

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should have a system that enables that set of practices.

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Broply speaking, so long would an answer, but if you if

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you were investing in injuring excellence and IDP is probably

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part of that journey in some way.

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Speaker 1: Long winded answers are Okay, we got a whole podcast

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to fill here.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: I like that analogy though. This I hadn't heard the

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CRM analogy before though, and that that resonates so well

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with me because one of my first jobs in you know,

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tech it software engineering was around CRM, because like this

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was in what was it, I think it was late nineties,

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early two thousands, you know, and everyone like CRMs back

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then were like you know AI today, where everybody was

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just like pimping it out. But it's true because I

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think that that analogy is just so cool because from

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my perspective in my day to day work, you know,

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you're always like getting pulled off to take a look

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at this micro service or that micro service or what's

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this alert mean? And so the IDP is like a

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common source of knowledge where you can go see like

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not only hey, what is this thing, but where is it?

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Where's it running at? You know, and how is it

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deployed and whatever pieces are connected to it.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, Like if you know, what's really interesting is that

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every single function in an organization has some sort of

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system of record, right like HR has HRS systems like

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Workday and sales have CRMs, and I guess marketing also

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use the CRMs, but they also have things like MARKETO

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and finances ERP and then Enguring built all these other CRMs,

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but we didn't really have one ourselves. And it's really

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interesting because the same things you hear in other functions,

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like you know, support ticket comes in. Like imagine if

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every time a support ticket came in, your support team

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was like who owns this account?

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Speaker 1: Again?

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Speaker 2: Like what does this account? Do?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: What kind of customer are they? And you just kind

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of ping each other on Slack at a conflience s

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Pase you do that, it'd be insane, but like that's

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what happens today. In engineering is like, hey, I have

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a question about the payment's API. Who do I go to? Again?

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Like who do I talk to about that? Like like

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that is the current state of affairs for most organizations

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and so like the fact that every other function software

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drinking teams have solved that for everyone else, but we

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haven't sold it for ourselves is like such a bizarre

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chicken or the egg problem to me. And you know,

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I think the other like best example of this is

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the fact that most of these other functions use their

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system of record to drive kind of like purpose build

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process for it. And I'll give you an example of this,

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Like you know, sales teams they have you know, medpick

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or whatever kind of like sales methodology they want to

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use to drive like quality leads. Like a sales leader

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will come in and say, hey, I you know, I'm

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not gonna treat this as a real deal unless you

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know what the pain is in this account and you

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know who the decision maker is, and like you've done

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all this discovery until you do that, Like, I don't

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even treat this as a real deal, and all that

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stuff has codified it into this CRM, Like you cannot

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move a deal forward in stages and unless it has

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that information and like that forces the behavior you want.

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But in engineering, like we don't really have that, Like

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if you the the best example of this is like

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production readiness process, right, it's like, hey, you have to

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follow all these standards and like meet these requirements and

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you have to do things in a certain way so

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that when you go to production, like we're not gonna

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waste time being like where the fuck are the logs?

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Sorry for mind you, where the logs for this thing are?

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Like you know, like who's on call for this? Like

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is there an escalation policy? Like is there an uptime honitor?

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Why did this go off?

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Speaker 1: Like that?

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Speaker 2: That's kind of the current state in production readiness process

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is like this is a very manual thing, and you

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know with SRR teams, you have SR teams that like

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will interrogate you before the thing goes to production, like

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have you done all the things you should do? And

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they're like yes, I have, like trust me, and it's

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an honor system thing, and so why is that any

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different from a sales team kind of like codifying these

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things in a system. If sales can codify things, why

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can't the function that codifies things for a living codify

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those things into a system too. And so you know,

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like product readiness is a very common thing people do

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with IDPs because you have kind of your core catalog

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with services and ownership and all this metadata. Now that

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you have that, you can say like, these are the

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things that I care about from a product readiness process,

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and I'm going to codify this. I'm going to valuate

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all these things are true and I we'll just tell

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you if you're not getting those requirements. And so I

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don't know then now. The moment we came up with

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this analogy was like like suddenly, you know, everything clicked

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because every function has the same problems, Like we're just

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reinventing the wheel, and why do that when we've learned

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these lessons the hard way over and over again and

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like every single function And so I really really love

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that analogy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's cool. It just works so well. You mentioned that,

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like your SRE teams are your biggest advocates of this,

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what kind of like what are the big challenges for

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them to get that, to get like support across the

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org for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I would say like our biggest advocates

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are usually platform engineers, sorry security and like developer experience,

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though I think developer experience has been generally subsumed by

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like DeVos platform groups at this point. SORR is a

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really interesting one because they don't necessarily see an IDP

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as just a platform or like the system record is

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a platform, you know, kind of extend this extending this

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analogy a little bit. It's like your customer success team.

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You know, they probably don't own the CRM, but they

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are like major stakeholders, and if they don't have information

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about your customers, their lives are a lot harder. And

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so SRA teams are kind of the same, where they

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just have a very specific pain point and it's usually

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around you know, being the first line of defense during

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incidents or running production by processes and whatnot. You know,

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like let's say an e commerce company. For example, we

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work with a really, really well known e commerce company

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and every year they run a production readiness process to

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get ready for Black Friday, because you know, majority of

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the revenue comes in on Black Friday, and so you

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can imagine that they probably have some of the best

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production readiness processes in the world because you you bet

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their systems are precurely ready come Black Friday, cyber Monday,

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and so your SORRY team comes in and they run

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this entire process around it. So things like load testing

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and contract testing and you know, monitoring and alerting and

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logging and all these things are like those things have

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to be ready to go come black Friday, and so

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how do they do that today? You know, it's generally

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a combination of spreadsheets and you know, tracking down service

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owners and like manual processes around this kind of thing.

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And you do that year over year over over year,

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and it's just like and you end up in a

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state where there's tons of drift. Right, it's your I

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SR team owns the outcome of reliability. So you know,

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from a CTO perspective or a business perspective, they're the

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ones that are kind of the single choke point for reliability.

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If things don't work the way they expect, the first

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question is like, hey, SR team, what happened?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: And so it's like they have invested interest in making

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sure that reliability practices are codified and it's not just them.

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I think SAR is unique in the sense, like all

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these kind of core teams I mentioned, like Platform and

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Sorry insecurity are unique in the sense that they don't

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really have a direct impact on what other teams do.

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They're more like influencers in an organization. They can say

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these are the things that I need you to be doing.

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But unless there's a mandate from like a VP, begeering

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or CTO, they can't hold other teams accountable.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: It's more like, here's a process that we're going to

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put in place, and like hopefully you get buy in

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from the leadership team to use those as gates. But

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like that's one of the biggest pain points is that

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there's like there's the problem of they're being held accountable

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to a major business outcome, but they don't have the

300
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quote unquote how we're to enforce that across their peer groups,

301
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and so they're kind of in this weird situation. And

302
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so I think that's why they love IDPs is because

303
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now they can codify this requirement in a systematic way.

304
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So they use the catalog and they codify their pressure

305
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readingness process, and they can generate reports for leadership. They

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can you know, assign action items to developers, and they

307
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have a way to like continuously monitor these things. And

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I think that's the other thing about IDPs is like

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I sorry. Teams obviously are pushing the idea of like

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observability and monitoring and all these things, And so if

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we really care about real time visibility into those things,

312
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why do we treat a process like pressure waightingness as

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a one and done thing, right, It's like, oh, you

314
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check it off and like we'll come back in six months.

315
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When anything can change in six months, I could, you know,

316
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blow away my page duty rotation And I would never

317
00:15:45,039 --> 00:15:47,200
know that until something went wrong and people are like, oh,

318
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,360
why did you get paid? Well, ah, my bad, Like

319
00:15:49,399 --> 00:15:52,519
I accidentally turn off all the notification settings on this thing,

320
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and so why wouldn't you continuously monitor that? So I

321
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think that's one of the reasons why I Sory teams

322
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are kind of such strong stakeholders is because they want

323
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a methodical, automated way to codify their practices and drive

324
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behavior change across the organization using like a system rather

325
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than just like an honor process. And then of course

326
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having a catalog and ownership and all those things are

327
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really important because when there's an incident there, they don't

328
00:16:17,279 --> 00:16:19,799
own those services, and their first thing is like who

329
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do I go to?

330
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Speaker 1: How do I like?

331
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Speaker 2: How do I loopen the right people here and if

332
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,279
you don't have a system for that, again, you're like

333
00:16:25,679 --> 00:16:29,080
at here who owns payments and you can wait, you know.

334
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And so like being able to go to a place

335
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that says a show's payments and I will wake them

336
00:16:33,759 --> 00:16:36,960
up because this is Brandon down somewhere and like validated.

337
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So my life is so much better. So that's why

338
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:40,879
your teams love IDPs for that reason.

339
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, the at here message is like the the pleas

340
00:16:46,639 --> 00:16:49,120
and then the at channel is like, Okay, this isn't

341
00:16:49,679 --> 00:16:51,480
This isn't a funny question anymore.

342
00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:55,279
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, that's exactly right.

343
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Speaker 1: There's always that big side when you get paiged and

344
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you look at the alert and you're like, wow, I've

345
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never even heard of this service before. Exactly, this should

346
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be fun.

347
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Speaker 2: It's just like your heart sinks and it's like, oh

348
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,880
my god, what is this thing? Like this does not

349
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:14,440
sound like a thing that it should exist.

350
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Speaker 1: Right.

351
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Speaker 2: I will say I think I was definitely a culprit

352
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of this in my last job. I'm a sucker for

353
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,880
great micro service names. But I will say I think

354
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over the last few years, most organizations we work with

355
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:31,920
have gotten much better about just naming things what they do.

356
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Cortex included for the most part. We definitely have our

357
00:17:37,039 --> 00:17:39,319
culprits here and there. But I think it's a lot

358
00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:44,359
easier to understand when something is named payment service versus

359
00:17:44,839 --> 00:17:47,599
bank emoji or something like something stupid like that.

360
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Speaker 1: Oh for sure. Yeah, yeah. I remember when I first

361
00:17:51,599 --> 00:17:55,119
started my career, like there was for several years there

362
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,559
was this big trend to name all of your servers

363
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after like Simpson's characters or Lord of the Rings characters,

364
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,799
and so you would get paged in the middle of

365
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:11,000
the night because Homer has crashed and you're like, this

366
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,200
is not helpful information.

367
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Speaker 2: That that honestly didn't change with micro services. I think

368
00:18:17,519 --> 00:18:21,400
like my last job we named and again I thought

369
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,400
this was awesome, Like we had a you know or

370
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automated like decisioning stack for like credit card decisions and stuff,

371
00:18:27,319 --> 00:18:30,680
and it was all named after like Espresso, because you know,

372
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,279
you have Brewer, which like takes the stuff from Espresso

373
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and then like or like the beans and then extracts

374
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things out of it. So it's like a feature feature

375
00:18:38,759 --> 00:18:41,240
extraction tool for the machine leading models. I was like,

376
00:18:41,279 --> 00:18:43,039
Brewer is such a great name for that. You know

377
00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,359
and like you know, stuff like that, and like that

378
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,279
was a whole theme around that. And but now looking back,

379
00:18:48,319 --> 00:18:50,559
I'm like imagining a new engineer joining the team and

380
00:18:50,559 --> 00:18:53,000
you're looking at like what are these like coffee services?

381
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,119
Like what is this to do with anything? So, yeah,

382
00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,720
I make coffee exactly exactly? Is that a side business?

383
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,319
Like Nope, definitely not.

384
00:19:04,839 --> 00:19:08,319
Speaker 1: Cool. So a lot of this paints an organization or

385
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:14,960
steers an organization to a new level of maturity. But

386
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:20,000
what's the entry level of maturity to get started down

387
00:19:20,039 --> 00:19:21,880
this path? Like do you kind of have to have

388
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,519
a pretty good grip on where your environment is to

389
00:19:24,599 --> 00:19:27,480
start getting benefits from implementing an IDP.

390
00:19:28,519 --> 00:19:30,519
Speaker 2: I'm really glad you asked this question because this question

391
00:19:30,559 --> 00:19:32,359
probably comes up like six times a week. I mean,

392
00:19:32,559 --> 00:19:34,599
I think it's a natural question asked. It's like, hey,

393
00:19:34,599 --> 00:19:36,799
if we're telling folks that you know, you should be

394
00:19:36,839 --> 00:19:38,559
more data driven in the way you operate than the

395
00:19:38,599 --> 00:19:40,279
force of the question is well, my data sucks, Like

396
00:19:40,319 --> 00:19:42,559
where do I start? And it's kind of this chicken

397
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:44,319
or the egg problem, right, It's like, well, do I

398
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,319
go back and clean up all my data first, or

399
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,119
do I start with an IDP, and then you know

400
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,279
which direction do I go? And my answer is always,

401
00:19:51,759 --> 00:19:54,200
if you don't have a system of record, how do

402
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:55,960
you even know if your data is clean? Like you

403
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,079
can sit there scrubbing all day long and you will

404
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,400
just never know when you've actually reached a reasonable point.

405
00:20:00,759 --> 00:20:02,640
And so like the way you think about it is

406
00:20:03,279 --> 00:20:07,720
when you first start everything, like to take a famous line,

407
00:20:07,759 --> 00:20:10,079
everything is an unknown unknown, right, It's like you just

408
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,759
literally have no idea. Everything is just a black box.

409
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,119
And then you put it into a system, like you know,

410
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,160
like an IDP and the catalog and all these things,

411
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,960
and then you write scorecards and like kind of data

412
00:20:20,039 --> 00:20:22,519
quality checks around those things. Now, all of a sudden,

413
00:20:22,519 --> 00:20:24,519
you may still want to know things, but we've turned

414
00:20:24,519 --> 00:20:27,000
the unknown unknowns into the no unknowns, like hey, I

415
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:28,559
don't really know what the service does, or I don't

416
00:20:28,599 --> 00:20:30,839
know where it's deployed, or is this thing even a

417
00:20:30,839 --> 00:20:33,240
production service anymore? Like which team owns it and whatnot?

418
00:20:33,279 --> 00:20:35,039
And so like at least now you know that that

419
00:20:35,039 --> 00:20:37,200
thing exists and you know that you don't know things

420
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,279
about it, and then you can start to fill in

421
00:20:39,279 --> 00:20:42,039
the gaps with like automation or like human in the

422
00:20:42,079 --> 00:20:44,880
loop processes or whatnot, and so like, without a system,

423
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,519
how do you even know where, like if you're making

424
00:20:47,559 --> 00:20:49,920
any progress against this or where to go against this. Like,

425
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,160
for example, one of the things that we always hear

426
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:53,480
is like, oh, well, well, first we need to figure

427
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,440
out ownership for all of our services and and then

428
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,000
we'll ask people like that contacts about those services and whatnot.

429
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,480
And what's what's really interesting is, you know, we've we've

430
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,759
solved the ownership problem in a really interesting way where

431
00:21:06,759 --> 00:21:09,920
we can use like machine learning techniques to determine owners

432
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:11,599
of services and so that that's not really a problem

433
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,759
anymore because we can like tell you with like a

434
00:21:13,839 --> 00:21:16,359
ninety five percent accuracy which team who thinks owns owns

435
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,119
a given service or repo. But even without that, like

436
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,759
it's probably easier for most organizations to say, these like

437
00:21:23,079 --> 00:21:26,640
ten services over here generally make up like the payments

438
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,279
system of things, and so like, being able to like

439
00:21:29,319 --> 00:21:33,200
at least classify repos and services into these buckets then

440
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,759
allows you to say, well, not just do I not

441
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,359
know anything about these services other than the fact they're

442
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,759
in payments, I can start to make more data informed

443
00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:43,160
decisions around we're to start collecting that data, are cleaning

444
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,920
up the data, like, hey, you know the the Payments

445
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,759
Organization sixty percent of their stuff. We have no idea

446
00:21:48,839 --> 00:21:50,680
what it is, so you know what, let's like ignore

447
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,480
everything else for now. And it's really focused on like

448
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,079
getting that data in order because that stuff is really

449
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,160
really critical, and then we'll get to the other stuff.

450
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:58,759
So how do you do that with that IDP? And

451
00:21:58,759 --> 00:22:00,319
so that's why like with the chicken or the thing,

452
00:22:00,759 --> 00:22:03,160
and then you have to start with the IDP as

453
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,960
a way to like codify this stuff and use it

454
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,880
as a forcing function to turn the unknown unknowns into

455
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,599
the NOE unknowns and hopefully eventually the no nones and

456
00:22:11,599 --> 00:22:13,599
then maybe a long tail of no unknowns. And so

457
00:22:13,839 --> 00:22:15,599
that's the kind of way I think about that problem.

458
00:22:16,519 --> 00:22:19,079
Speaker 1: Right. So it's like the difference between knowing I'm screwed

459
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:20,640
and knowing how screwed I am.

460
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,799
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, that's exactly right.

461
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,319
Speaker 1: Cool. So then you can just kind of like almost

462
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:35,440
just create a process where first step is look for

463
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,799
this thing, something something draws your attention, you look for

464
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,000
it in the IDP, and if it's not, their first

465
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,039
step is to add it to it exactly.

466
00:22:45,079 --> 00:22:47,880
Speaker 2: I mean, hopefully the IDP you're using is able to

467
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,000
like suck in everything, and so it's like that's kind

468
00:22:50,039 --> 00:22:52,519
of what we do is point us to your tools

469
00:22:52,519 --> 00:22:54,759
and we will just suck in as much as we can,

470
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,799
so at least we know that those things exist in

471
00:22:56,839 --> 00:22:58,960
your world, and then you can start like filling in

472
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,599
the gaps. So that's kind of where we would start,

473
00:23:01,759 --> 00:23:04,319
is like this this thing exists, and hoole like we

474
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,319
started like plugging in the holes and the data, you know,

475
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,359
hopefully with automation or like a human in the loop.

476
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:10,720
And so you can always go to the IDP and

477
00:23:10,759 --> 00:23:12,480
start there and then kind of jump out into the

478
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:13,480
other tools if you need to.

479
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,400
Speaker 1: Right, And so you pointed at like your your cloud

480
00:23:17,599 --> 00:23:20,400
provider and data ge hub, your data.

481
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 2: Hug, your AWS and all that kind of stuff and

482
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,920
say like here's everything we found. Let's second as much

483
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:27,839
as we can. So now you have like a starting

484
00:23:27,839 --> 00:23:32,839
point again kind of turning the uh, the unknown nons

485
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,319
into the non unknowns until like being able to then

486
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:36,920
quin a quarry against this and say, you know what,

487
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,480
I'm gonna like ignore all the things that haven't had

488
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,519
to commit in like four years, like those repos that

489
00:23:41,559 --> 00:23:43,559
just don't want and so you can like run a

490
00:23:43,559 --> 00:23:46,039
report on that in the IDP and like put those

491
00:23:46,039 --> 00:23:48,200
aside and then folks on all the other things. And like,

492
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,880
because we all know there's like a thousand repos out

493
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,200
of if you have a thousand repos, eight hundred of

494
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,759
them are probably random script repos and tour into them

495
00:23:55,799 --> 00:23:58,920
are real. So like how do you start to categorize

496
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,720
those things and like meaningful ways and you know, being

497
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,519
using IDPs like being able to put things aside and

498
00:24:04,559 --> 00:24:05,920
like start to focus on things. This is like an

499
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,319
interesting way of something that problem.

500
00:24:08,079 --> 00:24:11,279
Speaker 1: If gethub ever decides to start charging per repo, we're

501
00:24:11,279 --> 00:24:11,839
all screwed.

502
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,359
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that would yeah, that would be a

503
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:20,200
bad day. Yeah. Most organizations definitely have more repos than people,

504
00:24:20,319 --> 00:24:21,119
for better or worse.

505
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 1: Oh for sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So from a

506
00:24:28,079 --> 00:24:30,519
I think it's really easy to sell the story of

507
00:24:30,519 --> 00:24:35,079
an IDP to your DevOps and SR and infrastructure teams.

508
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,000
What about to like the developers who are building the

509
00:24:38,039 --> 00:24:42,039
micro services. What's the what's the incentive for them?

510
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it's an important question. I think. You know,

511
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,839
our thinking around this has kind of changed quite a

512
00:24:46,839 --> 00:24:50,799
bit when idp's first came around, especially like you know,

513
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,839
the open source framework from Spotify backstage and stuff like.

514
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:59,359
They they really focus the messaging around developer experience, Like

515
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,480
the main thing was just developer experience. And I really

516
00:25:03,519 --> 00:25:06,839
think that was a bad framing for ADYPS because it

517
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,000
focused the entire thing on just developers versus how does

518
00:25:11,039 --> 00:25:13,480
it fit into injuring excellence and then run you know,

519
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,240
then focus that on developers. And you know what I

520
00:25:16,279 --> 00:25:18,759
mean by that is like developer experience we kind of

521
00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:21,920
see as a subset of injuring excellence, right, So it's

522
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:27,720
like injuring excellence is the alignment of your like general

523
00:25:27,759 --> 00:25:31,680
technical strategy to drive business outcomes. And it's like the

524
00:25:31,799 --> 00:25:33,960
it's the entire life cycle, you know, starting from architecture

525
00:25:34,039 --> 00:25:37,160
gains in response to production, to security posture and all

526
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:38,839
these things like that, all of that stuff falls under

527
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,000
injuring excellence. The developer experience is kind of a subset

528
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,039
of that, which is, you know, we want to optimize

529
00:25:44,039 --> 00:25:49,759
the developer's workflow, sending tools, documentation CI, reducing friction, cognitive load,

530
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,960
like improving sentiment, all those things kind of like fall

531
00:25:53,039 --> 00:25:57,960
under the developer experience bucket, right, And I think the

532
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,519
to to kind of bring in another analogy here. Developer

533
00:26:01,559 --> 00:26:04,799
experience is kind of like the ergonomic office chair, right.

534
00:26:04,839 --> 00:26:09,000
It's like you need it for comfort and productivity, and

535
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,519
you need it to to not fall apart and have

536
00:26:11,559 --> 00:26:14,279
a bad back in like five years. You could still

537
00:26:14,319 --> 00:26:16,400
probably you know, write a ton of great code if

538
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,920
you were hunched over on your sitting in your bed

539
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,279
and coding. Like it's you can still do good work,

540
00:26:23,599 --> 00:26:26,400
but you will probably kind of wither away after a

541
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,440
couple of years and like not beasi reproductive and you're

542
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,200
gonna hate your life and all those things. And so

543
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,079
it's like injuring excellence is like the general operational strategy

544
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,559
to like, now that I have a chair and people

545
00:26:36,599 --> 00:26:39,079
are comfortable, how can I you know, how can they

546
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:40,880
write code that actually matters for the business and do

547
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,599
it in the right way? And so like all that

548
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,960
to say, I think when we think about where developers

549
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,119
fit in, I think it starts with like, what is

550
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,720
the business outcome we care about? So for example, like

551
00:26:50,759 --> 00:26:52,359
I mentioned for the e commerce company, it's like we

552
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,440
want reliability, and for reliability, it's like okay, well, now

553
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,519
the s RA team owns a reliability initiative or on

554
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,000
injuring excellence, and they want to make sure that any

555
00:27:02,039 --> 00:27:04,680
new service that is being deployed to production is following

556
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,799
all these practices, including new ones. And so they go

557
00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:09,400
and work at the platform team and say like, hey,

558
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,839
we want to build a golden path, you know, and

559
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,559
we want to incorporate our SR practices into the golden

560
00:27:14,599 --> 00:27:16,640
path that the platform team is building. And so now

561
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,799
you have your two central teams working together, and they

562
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,079
take that and they deliver it to the developer team

563
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,359
and they say like, hey, like this is our production

564
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,519
readiness process. You have to meet all these requirements to

565
00:27:27,559 --> 00:27:30,119
go to production. By the way, we also have this

566
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,319
real easy starter where if you click a button, we

567
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,319
will create a repo for you and bootstrap with all

568
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,279
the right things and like registrate with data dog and

569
00:27:36,319 --> 00:27:38,599
set up your monitors. And so you can use a

570
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,440
starter and get all these things for free, or you

571
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,240
can kind of go down your own path, but you

572
00:27:42,279 --> 00:27:45,119
will still be set held to the same requirements. And

573
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,079
so now you've kind of tie the two things together.

574
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,519
It's like the develop the seamless developer experience around spinning

575
00:27:50,559 --> 00:27:53,160
up a new service or self serving something is tied

576
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,160
to this kind of like outcome that we care about,

577
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,359
and so like that's the way we think about where

578
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,519
IDPs drive value for developers. So it's like you can

579
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,880
you still have really great developer experiences around. Hey, I

580
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,480
need to figure out who to talk to when I

581
00:28:05,519 --> 00:28:06,759
have a question about a thing. Let me go and

582
00:28:06,799 --> 00:28:08,799
ask the catalog. Or I'm trying to spin up a

583
00:28:08,839 --> 00:28:10,559
new service, like let me just go click this button

584
00:28:10,599 --> 00:28:13,480
and like get a new service in two minutes versus

585
00:28:13,799 --> 00:28:17,440
going and copying a thousand boilerplate lines and trying to

586
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,960
set up things myself. But it's like all baked into

587
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,359
this concept of injuring excellence, you know, like the other

588
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,200
examples of this like that we see it with IDPs

589
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:30,279
is things like temporary credentials for database, Like, hey, I

590
00:28:30,319 --> 00:28:33,720
need temporary access for some vault and I need just

591
00:28:33,759 --> 00:28:37,119
in time credentials. Okay, cool, Like that is a security

592
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,920
outcome that we care about, and I could probably do

593
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,559
this as like a jear ticket that I can go

594
00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:43,720
and file and like assign it to the security team

595
00:28:43,759 --> 00:28:45,240
and they can review it and they can send me

596
00:28:45,279 --> 00:28:47,680
like a secure link with the credential or something silly

597
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,079
like that, or they can bake that into the IDP

598
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,759
and say, hey, click this button. It will notify me

599
00:28:52,799 --> 00:28:54,079
when you want this thing, and I will approve it

600
00:28:54,119 --> 00:28:56,160
and you will just get your credentials there. So it's

601
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,200
still like in service of security, but the developer experience

602
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,279
is awesome and so why when a developers use it?

603
00:29:01,559 --> 00:29:04,000
So it's really around like I think a lot of

604
00:29:04,039 --> 00:29:06,519
IDP initiatives fail and it's general development like not even

605
00:29:06,599 --> 00:29:10,039
IDP like developer experience initiatives or platform managing initiatives fail

606
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,079
because if you have the mindset of if we build it,

607
00:29:14,079 --> 00:29:16,559
they will come, it never works out. Like you have

608
00:29:16,599 --> 00:29:19,000
to be solivent a very specific pain and like think

609
00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:21,440
about it like a product manager and run like drive

610
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,440
to where some outcome. And then if you do it

611
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,640
the right way, then developers will naturally like your adopt

612
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,319
the capabilities because it is something that they are facing

613
00:29:29,359 --> 00:29:32,079
pain with today. It's like that's where I think developers

614
00:29:32,079 --> 00:29:33,839
get a lot of value out of the IDP as

615
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:34,200
a whole.

616
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think there's like so much overlap there

617
00:29:39,119 --> 00:29:42,480
for you specifically in that build it and they will

618
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,799
come model because you were the one of the co

619
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,839
founders of Cortex, so you know firsthand, like you've got

620
00:29:50,839 --> 00:29:56,200
your employee salaries on the line to figure out and

621
00:29:56,599 --> 00:30:00,319
you know, and decide like, oh, just because I built

622
00:30:00,319 --> 00:30:02,519
it doesn't mean they're going to come. So you have

623
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,119
to you have to do that marketing, you know, and

624
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,720
find out who's using your product, and who looked at

625
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,240
your product and decided it wasn't for them and why.

626
00:30:11,759 --> 00:30:14,319
And I think those same lessons have to be applied

627
00:30:14,519 --> 00:30:17,960
internal to the organization as well for a product of

628
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,319
this scale to be successful.

629
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. I mean, coming from a technical background,

630
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,160
our first iteration of this was literally like, here's a catalog.

631
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,920
It solved that you know, sinking feeling when I got

632
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,079
paid at two am for service Dinefic Gamston's character and

633
00:30:34,119 --> 00:30:35,480
we put it out there and we're like, why does

634
00:30:35,559 --> 00:30:38,960
nobody want this? And it was like it was I

635
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:40,880
don't know. It was such a moment for us because

636
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,799
we were just so focused on solving for this one

637
00:30:42,839 --> 00:30:45,200
and specific pain point the way to take a step

638
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,119
back and think about, well, yes, this pain is hard,

639
00:30:48,119 --> 00:30:49,839
but how do we show people the value of this?

640
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,079
How do we you know, make it so obvious that

641
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,160
this is the right way of doing things that people

642
00:30:55,279 --> 00:30:59,119
will want to adopt it and like maybe overcome friction

643
00:30:59,359 --> 00:31:02,759
around it. Like platform engineering or DevOps is no different, right,

644
00:31:02,799 --> 00:31:04,440
I mean we've gone through this time and time again.

645
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,799
It's like, oh, you know, we've like rebuilt our CI

646
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,000
process and our cipipeline and the's all these other tools,

647
00:31:09,039 --> 00:31:11,000
and you're like, why is nobody using it? Was like

648
00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:13,559
was there any real pain around it? Like yeah, maybe

649
00:31:13,599 --> 00:31:16,640
like the old system sought, but like like is it is?

650
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,079
Is the new system so much better in so many

651
00:31:19,119 --> 00:31:21,640
ways that like I will take six hours out of

652
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,319
my week to migrate my you know, my repos over

653
00:31:24,319 --> 00:31:27,519
to this new CI process Like maybe not, And so

654
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,680
like either how do you make it super simple for

655
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,079
me to migrate like a click of a button maybe

656
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,839
an IDP or it's so much better? Or like I

657
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,680
you know, went out and researched with my my developer

658
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,680
teams and asked them what the what the pain is

659
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,319
or saw metrics like you know, it's not just about

660
00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:48,559
I think, you know, maybe a hot take, but I

661
00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:51,240
think a lot of organizations are overdoing it on the surveys,

662
00:31:51,279 --> 00:31:54,440
Like surveys are useful, but you know, if you ask

663
00:31:54,519 --> 00:31:56,599
what people what their problem is and what the data says,

664
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,279
there's generally two very different things. And so like a

665
00:31:59,359 --> 00:32:02,119
combination of data and outcomes and surveys and all those

666
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,400
things are important. But like you know, going and talking

667
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,319
to your developers like hey, what do you what do

668
00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:09,680
you do all day? Like we know, what what is

669
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,880
your experience on this thing? You know, you know, you

670
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,079
have all these requirements from security team, like how are

671
00:32:14,119 --> 00:32:16,799
you fulfilling those? What does that process look like? You know,

672
00:32:16,839 --> 00:32:18,440
what is the pain point for you? And all this stuff?

673
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,160
And like then you start to realize like, oh, man,

674
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,200
like I'm starting to see a theme in this particular

675
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,319
part of the process, Like that's where I should really focus.

676
00:32:24,839 --> 00:32:27,640
And it's It's interesting because a lot of platform and

677
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,240
DevOps teams have been given this charter like go figure

678
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,240
out developer experience and platform stuff, and that is like

679
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,079
that is a product question at the end of the day,

680
00:32:36,079 --> 00:32:38,359
like you have to think like a product manager, but

681
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,480
a lot of platform teams or DevOps teams are not

682
00:32:40,519 --> 00:32:43,920
assigned a product manager, and so you're expecting, you know,

683
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,480
these new platform teams to like piece together. They're like

684
00:32:47,559 --> 00:32:51,039
platform skills and like devop skills and all these things

685
00:32:51,119 --> 00:32:53,599
and like somehow like magically learned product management and all

686
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,640
this stuff and like figure out the best platform. And

687
00:32:55,839 --> 00:32:58,359
it's it's like a tall order to ask. I gave

688
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,440
a talk about this at Reineman because it's like such

689
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,480
an important thing. Like I think platform engineers really need

690
00:33:03,519 --> 00:33:06,039
to think about the same way that a product manager

691
00:33:06,039 --> 00:33:07,559
would do. Right, It's like it's not just all, let

692
00:33:07,599 --> 00:33:09,720
me just build a really cool product. It's like what

693
00:33:09,799 --> 00:33:10,960
is the point of this product? Like what does the

694
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,039
business care about? What is the outcome that they're trying

695
00:33:13,039 --> 00:33:15,960
to drive towards. What is the foundation that we need

696
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,680
to build, and how does this platform help us achieve

697
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,119
that outcome? Because you know, I think we see this

698
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,359
a lot like injuring leaders or like especially non technical leaders,

699
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,480
but look at teams like platform teams, thedop ops and

700
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,400
like what is this team doing? Like what do they

701
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:29,880
do all day? Like it's easy to point out our

702
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,920
product team and say, like, yep, they ship eighteen features

703
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,759
and I know exactly I saw that in the UI,

704
00:33:34,799 --> 00:33:36,599
and my sales team is able to sell it, but

705
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,440
the platform team is much harder to like quantify the

706
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,759
impact of that and so being able to tie it

707
00:33:41,799 --> 00:33:45,599
to some like bigger business outcome is so so important

708
00:33:45,799 --> 00:33:48,480
to like get that time and energy and resources to

709
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,039
like keep investing in the platform.

710
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,119
Speaker 1: The right way for sure. Yeah, and especially like if

711
00:33:53,119 --> 00:33:55,480
you try to pull the platform team, like so many

712
00:33:55,519 --> 00:33:58,880
of us are just like grumpy and skeptical. So like

713
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,279
if you start asking as quickquestions were like, what what

714
00:34:01,319 --> 00:34:04,240
do you want? H's this going? Just tell me what's

715
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,319
broken and I'll go fix it. Otherwise go away?

716
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,119
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly exactly one percent.

717
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: Cool. Yeah, So, like one of the things that successful

718
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:26,199
startups do really well is fail fast, you know. And

719
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,760
there's like there's that quote from Zuckerberg a long time ago,

720
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,239
move fast and break things, which I tend to disagree

721
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,000
with because you know, it's like are we moving fast? Yes?

722
00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:42,440
Are we breaking things? Yes? Are those two things related?

723
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,400
I have no idea, you know, because like I could,

724
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,880
I could break something and it maybe six months before

725
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,480
we notice that it's broken. And so I like the

726
00:34:53,559 --> 00:34:55,840
term fail fast a lot better because it implies a

727
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,960
feedback loop that you're actively trying to make what you're

728
00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:03,239
currently working on fail, not something that's been working for

729
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,039
six months. But anyway, with fail fast, I think that's

730
00:35:07,079 --> 00:35:10,079
one of the key, one of the best ways to

731
00:35:10,079 --> 00:35:14,639
figure out what your customers really want quickly. And in

732
00:35:14,639 --> 00:35:18,199
the case of an IDP, like the customers are the

733
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:23,760
rest of the engineering org. So what kind of initiatives

734
00:35:24,599 --> 00:35:27,280
can you start with for an IDP that lend you

735
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,960
lend you to a fill fast mode of operation.

736
00:35:31,159 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is something we've learned the hard way over

737
00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:40,159
many years of IDP rollouts. I think the most important

738
00:35:40,159 --> 00:35:42,280
thing and this is this is true for like product,

739
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,039
you know, kind of like failing fast. The most important

740
00:35:45,039 --> 00:35:50,480
thing about failing fast is to deliver incremental changes, right,

741
00:35:50,519 --> 00:35:53,559
Like you don't ship a ginormous thing and spend six

742
00:35:53,599 --> 00:35:55,800
months building this out and then fail Like, that's not

743
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,440
failing fast. It's like try small thing generally, like move

744
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,119
in the direction of the problem, trying to solve, see

745
00:36:01,119 --> 00:36:02,880
if it works, and then like it doesn't work, try

746
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,599
a different approach. And I think for some reason, I

747
00:36:06,599 --> 00:36:08,440
guests thrown out the window for a lot of IDP

748
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,039
initiatives where like, oh my god, IDP can do a

749
00:36:11,079 --> 00:36:13,079
thousand things, let me go do everything. I'm gonna build

750
00:36:13,079 --> 00:36:15,159
the catalog I'm gonna build the self service, I'm gonna

751
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:16,960
do all these things, and like you're rolling the ocean

752
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,159
and then everything fails, you're like, it must be the IDP,

753
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,239
and it's like, it's not the IDP. It's like, I

754
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,280
think that all the things you tried probably didn't work.

755
00:36:24,559 --> 00:36:26,679
And so I think the thing that we generally say

756
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,360
is when you're rolling in an IDP, start by taking

757
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,719
something that you're already doing and making it better. Like,

758
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,840
don't try to introduce net new tooling or process or stuff,

759
00:36:39,159 --> 00:36:42,159
because you're trying to change behavior at that point and

760
00:36:42,199 --> 00:36:44,440
that is really hard. But instead, if you can take

761
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,079
something that people are already doing but it's made better

762
00:36:48,119 --> 00:36:50,800
by an IDP, that will help you iterate a lot faster,

763
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,039
Like I know we have to do this anyway, I

764
00:36:53,079 --> 00:36:55,880
know it sucks. I will iterate against this one thing

765
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:57,519
that I know we are doing and make that better

766
00:36:57,599 --> 00:36:59,760
until people tell me it's better, which is a much

767
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,360
easy your proposition than let me go and invent a

768
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,079
whole new thing that we've never done before and then

769
00:37:04,119 --> 00:37:06,320
figure out how to make that work, which is like

770
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,199
the difference between taking an existing product that is like

771
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,719
selling decently well in the market and like iterating on

772
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,599
it versus let me go and build a whole new

773
00:37:13,639 --> 00:37:16,039
product line that I have no idea people want this thing,

774
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,239
and then iterate on it and maybe the entire company

775
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,480
falls apart, you know, and so like that, like that

776
00:37:20,519 --> 00:37:23,280
is how we think about IDPs, and so pressure readiness

777
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,239
is a great example of that, because it's like a

778
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,360
thing that most organizations do and it's usually pretty painful.

779
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,920
And so can you invest in your automation and tooling

780
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,599
your IDP to solve that very one thing and solve

781
00:37:33,639 --> 00:37:36,000
that for every persona like, solve it for the SRA team,

782
00:37:36,199 --> 00:37:39,599
solve it for developers, solve it for leaders, and everyone's like, yep,

783
00:37:39,679 --> 00:37:41,360
I get the point of the IDP, and this is

784
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,159
so much better than what we were doing before. What

785
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,360
else can we do now with the IDP or the

786
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,920
same thing If you have a very manual like self

787
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,440
service process, If you don't have a self service Golden

788
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,199
path process at all any way, shape or form, it's

789
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,400
probably difficult to start there. But if you have like

790
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,239
a semblance of that process, then investing in that can

791
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,320
be much better. Only if you can tie to some

792
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,159
sort of business outcome, so you can say, like, you know,

793
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,000
leadership team is really focused on deploy frequency or you know,

794
00:38:07,079 --> 00:38:10,000
more innovation. It's like, okay, well that translates into the

795
00:38:10,039 --> 00:38:12,519
self service thing that developers already doing. So I'm going

796
00:38:12,559 --> 00:38:14,320
to showcase that one thing and iterate on that really

797
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,480
rapidly until I show something valuable. So like being able

798
00:38:17,519 --> 00:38:20,239
to like take a kind of like a single thread

799
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,599
through the entire organization across personas is like the way

800
00:38:24,639 --> 00:38:27,760
to fail fast because you're working towards something specific and

801
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:29,360
iterating very quickly against that.

802
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 1: Right on. Cool, And I think it also is just

803
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,840
going to give you a sense of a sense of

804
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,960
control over the implementation as well. You know, because you

805
00:38:40,119 --> 00:38:43,519
just focus on one thing, you're not constantly context switching

806
00:38:43,599 --> 00:38:49,519
between you know, ten different implementations or ten different major

807
00:38:49,519 --> 00:38:51,000
initiatives at the same time.

808
00:38:51,559 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly.

809
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: Cool. So what's got you excited about the current state

810
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:58,599
of technology these days?

811
00:39:00,119 --> 00:39:08,599
Speaker 2: Man a lot? I think you know, it's I'm glad

812
00:39:08,679 --> 00:39:14,280
we are generally over the conversations around what is the

813
00:39:15,679 --> 00:39:17,840
kind of cloud technology we all want to use? Like

814
00:39:19,159 --> 00:39:22,199
everyone agreeing on Kubernetes is like the standard for the

815
00:39:22,199 --> 00:39:24,119
most part, is like much easier because these now we

816
00:39:24,159 --> 00:39:26,280
can make it better. So I think that's obviously really exciting.

817
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,639
I think I'm sure ninety five percent of people that

818
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,519
come on this podcast probably say AI, which I will

819
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,079
also say, and you know, for what it's worth, that

820
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,920
was play an AI skeptic for a while. And I think,

821
00:39:41,119 --> 00:39:43,159
you know, some of the new models, like the reasoning

822
00:39:43,199 --> 00:39:46,519
models and stuff, are really really fascinating and I think

823
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,400
we're going to see a lot of really implications around that.

824
00:39:50,199 --> 00:39:52,679
But I don't think traditional you know, machine learning techniques

825
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:54,360
are going away either. But I think it's really exciting

826
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,880
how much more accessible though that has become for a

827
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,639
lot of people, ourselves included. The fact that we're using

828
00:39:59,639 --> 00:40:02,400
a common of AI and traditional machine learning techniques for

829
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:09,719
kind of data discovery is really cool. And yeah, I

830
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,039
think the I guess the last thing I'll on technology perspective,

831
00:40:13,079 --> 00:40:15,199
at least from my lens, No, I think about like

832
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:20,880
organizations more than technology a lot. And I think what's

833
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:25,360
really cool is that organizations. I feel like in the

834
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,800
last five to ten years, the way we operate, as

835
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:33,519
in your organizations, have matured quite a lot. I think,

836
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,800
I know, I think things will keep changing for for

837
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,519
some time, but it feels like for the most part,

838
00:40:40,559 --> 00:40:45,440
we've generally stabilized into kind of these different pillars of

839
00:40:45,519 --> 00:40:49,239
injuring excellence. And you know, I think I think platform

840
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,800
engineering is here to stay. You know, I think, you know,

841
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,800
we've we went through the kind of iterations of cloud,

842
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,400
infra and DevOps and all these other things, and I

843
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:03,119
think platform engineering is like the right iteration of that process,

844
00:41:03,159 --> 00:41:05,199
and I think we're gonna see I mean, I think

845
00:41:05,199 --> 00:41:07,639
that's why we've seen it kind of subsume developer experience

846
00:41:07,639 --> 00:41:10,639
and developer activity and all these kind of other ancillary functions.

847
00:41:11,039 --> 00:41:12,760
I think SR here is here to stay. I think

848
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,159
security is obviously here to stay. And so I think

849
00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:19,079
we've seen like injuring organizations generally stabilize on like these

850
00:41:19,199 --> 00:41:21,199
are the things that we need to invest in order

851
00:41:21,199 --> 00:41:24,320
to enable the outcomes that we care about. And I

852
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,400
think it's exciting because now we can start to build

853
00:41:27,039 --> 00:41:31,000
like purpose built capabilities for those functions rather than like

854
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,079
trying to figure out like is this DevOps, is this

855
00:41:34,159 --> 00:41:36,480
cloud as this platform is this infra? Like where does

856
00:41:36,519 --> 00:41:38,800
this all fit in? And like I think, you know,

857
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,239
knowing how the organizations generally interact with each other is

858
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,280
like a really powerful thing from up tooling perspective, and

859
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,800
you know, tying it back to the CRM analogy from earlier,

860
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,280
it's like, I think that's why you have so many

861
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,079
interesting tools in the sales space is like for the

862
00:41:53,159 --> 00:41:55,000
most part, it's like generally stable. You know, you have

863
00:41:55,079 --> 00:41:57,519
your your sales reps. You have your sales engineers, you

864
00:41:57,559 --> 00:42:00,800
have your account teams and your customer success people marketing people,

865
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,519
and you have like your OPS teams, and like generally

866
00:42:03,519 --> 00:42:05,880
those teams work together and like that has been fairly

867
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,079
stable for like the last two decades, and so you know,

868
00:42:09,119 --> 00:42:10,800
you now have a crop of tools that I've like

869
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,159
made each of those people's lives so much better. So

870
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,079
I'm excited for that engineering and like seeing those organizations

871
00:42:16,119 --> 00:42:17,920
stabilized means we're going to see a lot more like

872
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,280
a really interesting tools, especially with AI, so we're gonna

873
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,800
see a lot of really interesting, like purpose build tools.

874
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,920
I'm excited for for that kind of next iteration of

875
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,360
innovation around that From an organizational perspective.

876
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:35,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. It's it's like we've actually gotten a

877
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:37,800
good answer about what we do.

878
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:39,679
Speaker 2: For the business exactly.

879
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,039
Speaker 1: You know, like because for such a long time, you know,

880
00:42:43,639 --> 00:42:47,360
we were it was just everything about our industry was

881
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,280
just a cost center, you know, and if if companies

882
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,760
could just due away with it completely, they would. And

883
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:58,239
we saw that a lot in the the late nineties

884
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,840
and early two thousands without so we're seeing to you know,

885
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,280
India and other countries because it was just like, Okay,

886
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,159
it's a cost center, so we want that cost to

887
00:43:08,199 --> 00:43:10,960
be as small as possible. And now I feel like

888
00:43:11,039 --> 00:43:15,880
we've got a and part of it was, you know,

889
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,679
a learning curve on us in engineering, or we had

890
00:43:19,679 --> 00:43:22,320
to learn what we were doing for the business and

891
00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:25,480
how we fit into that part of the business and

892
00:43:25,519 --> 00:43:28,239
then start articulating that. And so I think we got

893
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:32,199
better at that. And uh, I think another interesting analogy

894
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,559
that applies to that is like looking at the automotive industry.

895
00:43:36,079 --> 00:43:40,079
You know, whenever they first created automobiles, you know, it

896
00:43:40,159 --> 00:43:42,920
was just guys in a shop somewhere are building stuff,

897
00:43:43,119 --> 00:43:46,000
putting parts together by hand, and then they came up

898
00:43:46,039 --> 00:43:48,760
with the assembly line, you know, and then once you

899
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:53,360
had the assembly line, you could start creating industries that

900
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,760
fed products into the assembly line, and you had then

901
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,760
you had just in time manufacturing and that kind of stuff.

902
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:03,840
So I think it's a very similar pattern that we've

903
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:08,760
seen over the last few decades in engineering. So same pattern,

904
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,880
just on a much more accelerated timeline exactly.

905
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 2: And I think that analogia works really well because we

906
00:44:16,159 --> 00:44:20,039
really saw big improvements in the methodologies and the technology

907
00:44:20,039 --> 00:44:25,679
around manufacturing when organizations started to see manifact like the

908
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,639
way they manufacturing and manufacturing process as a competitive advantage, right,

909
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:31,559
was not just like it was just a thing that

910
00:44:31,599 --> 00:44:33,320
we have to do to like ship, like to build

911
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,679
a build damn things. It's like, now, if we do

912
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:37,760
it right and we invest in it, it is actually

913
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,000
a competitive advantage. And we see you know, companies like

914
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,840
you know, Toyota or even Tesla, you know, investing in

915
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:48,320
like automation really seeing the manufacturing line as a competitive advantage.

916
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,360
And I think software is the exact same way. And

917
00:44:50,639 --> 00:44:53,119
you know, when we talk about it internally, that's what

918
00:44:53,199 --> 00:44:55,719
that's how we talk about it is like our ideal

919
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,760
customer is a software organization is a company that views

920
00:45:00,079 --> 00:45:04,119
software as a competitive advantage. And more and more organizations

921
00:45:04,159 --> 00:45:08,159
see it that way because you know, like software thing

922
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,800
in the world, and uh, you know, we've all heard

923
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,920
those those those lines. But if you see software engineering

924
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,320
as a competitive advantage, then of course you're going to

925
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,760
do everything in your power to make that function as

926
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,360
productive and uh, you know, outcome driven as possible, and

927
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,360
that lends itself really well to IDPs and platform engineering

928
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,480
and all these other things, and so like, of course

929
00:45:28,519 --> 00:45:31,159
you would invest in the right teams and tools and

930
00:45:31,199 --> 00:45:34,480
process to make those teams move as quickly and as

931
00:45:34,519 --> 00:45:38,280
efficiently as possible. So yeah, it's been it's been a

932
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,239
very interesting transition for that purpose. And like even you

933
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,239
see this with like with offshore teams. A lot of

934
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,199
our customers have offshore teams still in India and things

935
00:45:47,199 --> 00:45:49,599
like that, but the way they see those teams has

936
00:45:49,679 --> 00:45:53,639
changed drastically. Like you know, people are constantly flying out

937
00:45:53,679 --> 00:45:56,159
to go and visit those teams, and they're building beautiful

938
00:45:56,199 --> 00:45:59,119
campuses in India, and like they see those teams as

939
00:45:59,159 --> 00:46:02,559
part of the strategy versus just like oh, it's just

940
00:46:02,679 --> 00:46:04,679
under cost center. So it's like, hey, how do we

941
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,199
enable those teams that are you know, thirteen hours away

942
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,039
from a time zone perspective? How do we help them

943
00:46:10,119 --> 00:46:12,880
operate really well and independently and put it in the

944
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,760
right processes so that they can move quickly. And again like,

945
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,960
those are those maybe things that you would have done

946
00:46:20,119 --> 00:46:22,800
if you only saw them as a cost center and

947
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,199
like a way to cut costs, But like the framing

948
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,800
of it changes a lot when you think about software

949
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:29,760
as a competitive advantage. Like the way you invest in

950
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,199
the tooling and the platform to let those teams move

951
00:46:32,199 --> 00:46:35,159
autonomously and quickly is very very different, and we're seeing

952
00:46:35,159 --> 00:46:37,039
that in a lot of our customers and it's been

953
00:46:37,119 --> 00:46:38,199
really really cool to see.

954
00:46:39,159 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one of the really strong indicators of

955
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,679
that shift in philosophy has been some of the companies

956
00:46:45,079 --> 00:46:51,559
adopting like a global pay strategy where they're no longer

957
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:56,039
paying a competitive salary based on where that individual is,

958
00:46:56,199 --> 00:46:58,960
or saying this is a competitive salary no matter where

959
00:46:59,039 --> 00:47:02,360
you are in the world. If you're working at that

960
00:47:02,519 --> 00:47:05,280
role in our company, this is a salary you're going

961
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,559
to receive regardless of where you live. And I think

962
00:47:07,559 --> 00:47:11,320
that's a true That's that's the company, you know, to

963
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,679
use the old phrase putting their money where their mouth is.

964
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,679
That's them saying, yes, we value this position and we're

965
00:47:16,679 --> 00:47:19,480
willing to pay for it. Because of the benefits that

966
00:47:19,519 --> 00:47:20,880
we get as an organization.

967
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:23,639
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

968
00:47:25,079 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 1: So you're in San Diego, right, I am right on,

969
00:47:29,039 --> 00:47:30,000
such a beautiful town.

970
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 2: I love it. I went I went to undergrad here.

971
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,960
I grew up in the bar area, Okay, and went

972
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,719
to undergrad at UCSD and moved back to the Bay

973
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,880
worked there for a few years, and then, like everyone

974
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:44,639
else during COVID, I was like, why would I not

975
00:47:44,679 --> 00:47:49,239
go back to a sunny, beachy town to move straight

976
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:49,760
back here?

977
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: So is QRTEX still remote? We are.

978
00:47:55,599 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 2: We have people all over the world at this point,

979
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,440
and we just opened up an office and New York.

980
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:02,840
We have quite a few people out there. But there's

981
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,800
no like RTO or anything like that. It's just just

982
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:07,599
nice to have a place for people to connect and

983
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:09,880
you know, hold customer events and all that kind of stuff.

984
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,360
But we have people throughout the US, people in Europe,

985
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,239
people in Apac and so on. So definitely a global

986
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:17,920
organization right on.

987
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 1: Cool. What do you do, like like planned events or

988
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,800
get together is to bring folks together at at regular intervals.

989
00:48:31,199 --> 00:48:31,559
We do.

990
00:48:31,639 --> 00:48:34,079
Speaker 2: We're very very intentional about that. So we do two

991
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,199
all company events or fly everyone out. So it's actually

992
00:48:38,199 --> 00:48:40,840
probably more expensive than just having a couple offices, to

993
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:45,280
be honest, but yeah, you know, the the talent arbitrage

994
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,760
of hiring remote and like the productivity gains are like

995
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,679
so high that I think it's still valuable. And so

996
00:48:50,679 --> 00:48:53,119
we we will fly everybody out to a single place.

997
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,760
So in February we do like our company company kickoff

998
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,239
for the year and holiday park, so we actually for

999
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,199
that one will fly out everyone's partners or spouses and

1000
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,880
plus ones for the holiday party, which is really nice

1001
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,719
to get to know everyone and like really you know,

1002
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,760
meet everyone in person. And then we have like you know,

1003
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,599
three days of working sessions and all hands and team

1004
00:49:17,639 --> 00:49:20,119
bonding activities and all that stuff. So that one's usually

1005
00:49:20,119 --> 00:49:21,559
in New York, and then we do a second one

1006
00:49:21,639 --> 00:49:24,199
in the fall. That one's usually in San Diego because

1007
00:49:24,199 --> 00:49:26,159
the weather is obviously so nice here during that time,

1008
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:28,480
So we fly everyone out for that one, and then

1009
00:49:28,519 --> 00:49:30,639
we do a bunch of like smaller events throughout the year.

1010
00:49:30,679 --> 00:49:33,599
So like for big project kickoffs, you know, injuring, teams

1011
00:49:33,639 --> 00:49:36,599
will meet up in person, or the sales team does

1012
00:49:36,599 --> 00:49:39,760
their qbrs in person. We meet at conferences, there's a

1013
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:41,599
lot of opportunities to meet in person then obviously like

1014
00:49:41,639 --> 00:49:44,000
ad hoc things as well, but we are very very

1015
00:49:44,039 --> 00:49:48,360
intentional about creating those in person opportunities, especially because we're

1016
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:48,920
remote first.

1017
00:49:50,119 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, Like I think really async communication works

1018
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:59,679
best if you do have those in real life get togethers,

1019
00:49:59,679 --> 00:50:05,679
because there's there's a level of bonding that happens in

1020
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:11,119
real life that just doesn't happen whenever you're just talking

1021
00:50:11,159 --> 00:50:14,679
to someone you know via DMS or even through video chats.

1022
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:18,440
You know, you just there's something something about humans that

1023
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:22,159
it just doesn't work unless you're standing in close proximity

1024
00:50:22,159 --> 00:50:22,719
to them.

1025
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, Like remote work is made ten times better

1026
00:50:29,559 --> 00:50:32,320
after those in person events like getting to know people

1027
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:37,480
and you know, meet in person makes those asynchronous and

1028
00:50:37,519 --> 00:50:41,679
synchronous online connections just that much better because you've built

1029
00:50:41,679 --> 00:50:48,239
like a human bond with that person, which is extremely important.

1030
00:50:49,079 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, the person is no longer just the Homer

1031
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,559
Simpson emoji and slash. It's an actual real.

1032
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 2: Human there, exactly exactly.

1033
00:50:58,079 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: Cool. So what are the next big plans for IDPs

1034
00:51:02,079 --> 00:51:04,519
just in general and for you at Cortex.

1035
00:51:05,519 --> 00:51:08,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the big thing for us

1036
00:51:08,199 --> 00:51:12,440
is to kind of keep doubling down on this injuring

1037
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,199
excellence idea. So, like, how can Cortex be the platform

1038
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,119
to help organizations achieve a higher level level of injuring

1039
00:51:21,119 --> 00:51:23,119
excellence and how do we get people kind of thinking

1040
00:51:23,159 --> 00:51:26,360
about this framing even more as well, Like most organizations

1041
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,039
are already doing this, and so like, how do we

1042
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:32,360
tie all these things together and help organizations see that outcome?

1043
00:51:32,679 --> 00:51:34,360
And how how do we continue building the product in

1044
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,519
a way that drives towards those outcomes in many ways

1045
00:51:37,559 --> 00:51:41,960
and you know, investing in things like you know, injuring

1046
00:51:42,199 --> 00:51:50,360
metrics and reporting, investing in developer experience tooling, investing in automation. Yeah,

1047
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,320
really just helping kind of be that command center for

1048
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:55,679
injuring excellence, Like how do we help the entire organization,

1049
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,760
all the personas be better at engineering? Like that is

1050
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,840
a you know, an important distinction from I think what

1051
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,679
a lot of IDPs make, which you're really focused on

1052
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:09,360
just developer experience. And so I think, you know, doubling

1053
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,440
down on that from a product strategy perspective is gonna

1054
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:13,079
be really interesting. I'm excited to see where that goes.

1055
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:20,800
Speaker 1: Do you feel like you've already picked the low hanging

1056
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,519
fruit in the industry, or do you think there's still

1057
00:52:24,679 --> 00:52:28,440
more easy wins to be had there?

1058
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot more, well not easy wins.

1059
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:37,199
I think there are obvious wins, but technology technologically complex

1060
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:41,039
wins which we're currently working on that unfortunately can't talk

1061
00:52:41,039 --> 00:52:43,360
too much about but hopefully we'll be able to share

1062
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,079
in a few months. But I'm really really excited about

1063
00:52:47,079 --> 00:52:50,440
the possibilities, Like they're the market. Yes, we've been around

1064
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:52,159
for you know, five and a half years now, but

1065
00:52:52,599 --> 00:52:55,199
in the grand scheme of things, you know, going back

1066
00:52:55,199 --> 00:52:59,559
to CRMs, CRMs have existed for like forty years, but

1067
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:02,960
sales teams, I've been doing general bookkeeping for like centuries

1068
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:06,480
probably like you know, there's like the classic you know

1069
00:53:06,519 --> 00:53:11,760
that QNA formed uh tablet from the Sumerian civilization around

1070
00:53:12,119 --> 00:53:14,599
like the bushels are great, and like the documentation around that,

1071
00:53:15,599 --> 00:53:17,960
you know, on the tablet, and so like, I think

1072
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,480
sales process existed in some shape or form for like centuries.

1073
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,079
As we're kind of like speed running that process with

1074
00:53:24,079 --> 00:53:27,800
with IDPs a little bit. But I think and so

1075
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:30,679
with that framing the fact that idp's have been around

1076
00:53:30,679 --> 00:53:33,440
for like six years, and you know, I think I

1077
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:35,840
think we're like the longest standing at AP at this point.

1078
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:38,559
But like that's a drop in the bucket, you know.

1079
00:53:38,599 --> 00:53:40,559
It's like there's like so many more things we can

1080
00:53:40,599 --> 00:53:43,559
do with with IDPs, and I'm really really excited about

1081
00:53:43,599 --> 00:53:44,519
the possibilities there.

1082
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,639
Speaker 1: For sure, you're you're six years into the three thousand

1083
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:49,719
year journey.

1084
00:53:49,599 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly, exactly, We're killing it, man, exactly. Oh yeah,

1085
00:53:58,519 --> 00:53:58,800
right on.

1086
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:02,280
Speaker 1: We'll definitely have to come back on a show whenever

1087
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:06,480
you do drop that new feature that you can't talk

1088
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:08,519
about now, because I'm I'm interested in that now.

1089
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,079
Speaker 2: Absolutely, we'll definitely reach out.

1090
00:54:11,199 --> 00:54:19,760
Speaker 1: Right on cool Cool. So what would be what would

1091
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:23,679
be a great first step for someone who's wanting to

1092
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:25,960
check out the IDP experience.

1093
00:54:27,199 --> 00:54:30,039
Speaker 2: Just go to cordexa io. We have a demo on

1094
00:54:30,119 --> 00:54:32,199
the homepage and click around, see what it looks like

1095
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:36,840
and get an idea of it. And we are actually

1096
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:41,960
hosting a variety of injuring summits injuring excellent summits throughout

1097
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,480
the world. So we have one in New York, one

1098
00:54:44,519 --> 00:54:48,480
in Boston, one in London, and one in SF and

1099
00:54:48,519 --> 00:54:51,480
so those are not like super IDP focused, but really

1100
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,719
focus on injuring excellence. And so if you're interested in

1101
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,159
kind of how it all fits in, come up, come

1102
00:54:57,239 --> 00:54:59,679
through to one of those those summits, meet a lot

1103
00:54:59,679 --> 00:55:03,199
of other drink leaders and practitioners. I'm really excited for those.

1104
00:55:03,519 --> 00:55:07,119
And of course IDP Con we held the first one

1105
00:55:07,199 --> 00:55:09,480
last year, massive success. I think we had like three

1106
00:55:09,559 --> 00:55:12,920
hundred people or something close to that turnout in New York.

1107
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:16,079
So we're holding it even bigger and better this year.

1108
00:55:17,199 --> 00:55:19,840
So all things IDPs, not just Cortex, but all things

1109
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,719
IDPs IDP com later this year are probably great.

1110
00:55:23,039 --> 00:55:25,039
Speaker 1: Great example, right on, is that going to be in

1111
00:55:25,079 --> 00:55:28,880
New York again? Yeah? All right, cool? Cool.

1112
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,119
Speaker 2: We are looking for speakers as well, So.

1113
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:40,119
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, is there a CFP form on your website?

1114
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 2: There is, I believe it's on IDP CON's website, which

1115
00:55:46,679 --> 00:55:48,599
is IDP con dot com. And there is an apply

1116
00:55:48,639 --> 00:55:50,679
to speak one in so looking for any and all

1117
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:51,559
cfps for.

1118
00:55:51,559 --> 00:55:55,159
Speaker 1: That, right on? Cool, So that'd be cool. Check out

1119
00:55:55,199 --> 00:56:00,920
the conference apply to speak. I always courage people to

1120
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:04,679
apply for speaking positions.

1121
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 2: Great opportunities.

1122
00:56:06,079 --> 00:56:09,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. It's scary as hell. The first time,

1123
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:11,840
but then once you do it, you're like, oh, all right,

1124
00:56:12,159 --> 00:56:12,639
I get.

1125
00:56:12,519 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 2: It now exactly, and it's it's full time on other

1126
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:16,679
people who could get what you're doing, and like, I

1127
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:18,480
want to talk more about it as well, Like it's

1128
00:56:18,519 --> 00:56:22,280
a being able to have interesting conversations with practitioners after

1129
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:24,239
your talk is like it's always cool.

1130
00:56:25,079 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. One of the things for me because

1131
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:33,920
I'm not like a super social person, like I yeah,

1132
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:35,840
I'm just not a social person. But when I started

1133
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:40,159
giving conference talks, I did it mostly just as a

1134
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:45,039
challenge to myself. But then I found that by being

1135
00:56:45,079 --> 00:56:48,679
a speaker there, I never had to struggle with what

1136
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:52,800
to say to strangers because everyone always had like a

1137
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:55,119
question or a comment or some way to start the

1138
00:56:55,159 --> 00:56:58,639
conversation about the talk that I gave. It's like, oh, okay,

1139
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:02,960
well let's it's not near as intimidating or as stressful

1140
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,960
as I was expecting it to be. I encourage people

1141
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:07,920
to Yeah, I encourage people to do it just for

1142
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:11,000
that reason alone, and it's just great for their career

1143
00:57:11,039 --> 00:57:12,800
as well. You know, you put it on your resume

1144
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:14,760
next time you're applying for a job. Oh yeah, it

1145
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:18,840
was a speaker here. It's just like instant credibility, only

1146
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:23,719
good things. Yeah, for sure. Cool. Well, what do you

1147
00:57:23,719 --> 00:57:25,079
say we move on to some pics.

1148
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 2: Let's do it all right?

1149
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:32,599
Speaker 1: Cool? So this week I'm picking a book that I've

1150
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:40,159
just started reading, Plato five Dialogues. And you know, I'll

1151
00:57:40,199 --> 00:57:41,639
be honest here, I grew up in Texas in the

1152
00:57:41,719 --> 00:57:44,119
seventies and eighties, So I don't think anyone's going to

1153
00:57:44,159 --> 00:57:47,199
be shocked whenever I say I had never read Plato before,

1154
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:51,079
Like I've read the back of a Coup's Light Can

1155
00:57:51,159 --> 00:57:53,320
thousands of times, but this is my first time. I'm

1156
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:57,840
reading Plato, but I haven't read them. It's cool because

1157
00:57:58,079 --> 00:58:00,639
the book, oddly enough, written by play Out, It's got

1158
00:58:00,639 --> 00:58:04,159
nothing to do with him. It's mostly about Socrates. And

1159
00:58:04,199 --> 00:58:06,599
the reason I'm picking it is because I learned that

1160
00:58:07,119 --> 00:58:12,280
Socrates seems to just be a big fucking troll. He

1161
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:16,119
didn't really do any well, just that he would just

1162
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:19,159
engage in arguments with people just for the sake of

1163
00:58:19,199 --> 00:58:22,559
screwing with them. You know, the one that I read yesterday.

1164
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:25,559
He was talking with this guy about the difference between

1165
00:58:25,679 --> 00:58:30,599
piety and impiety and gets his definition from it. And

1166
00:58:30,599 --> 00:58:34,000
then goes through some different examples and then slowly walks

1167
00:58:34,039 --> 00:58:36,920
the guy around through to the point where the guy

1168
00:58:37,039 --> 00:58:40,440
changes his definitions of what those terms mean. He's like, oh,

1169
00:58:40,519 --> 00:58:42,239
so now you don't know what they mean, because now

1170
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:44,199
you're saying it's the exact opposite of what you just

1171
00:58:44,239 --> 00:58:46,480
told me. And it's like, wait a minute, you just

1172
00:58:47,119 --> 00:58:50,639
this whole time. Yeah, he's Socrates.

1173
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:53,599
Speaker 2: The original, just to play Devil's adificate guy.

1174
00:58:54,079 --> 00:58:57,519
Speaker 1: Uh, for sure, for sure, if he were alive today,

1175
00:58:57,519 --> 00:59:04,320
he would definitely be canceled. Oh man, So what about you?

1176
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:06,480
What you got for a pick this week? Oh?

1177
00:59:06,679 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 2: I was trying to think about it the whole conversation,

1178
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:12,360
and I actually came up with one. You know, the

1179
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:17,159
thing that I've been really kind of focused on recently

1180
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:22,159
is sleep quality. Oh yeah, it's I know, it's been

1181
00:59:22,159 --> 00:59:24,280
in the zeitgeist for you know a couple of years,

1182
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:28,639
with like all the new like high fangled sleeping equipment

1183
00:59:28,719 --> 00:59:33,480
and all these stuff. But you know, I've started wearing

1184
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:35,559
my Apple Watch to sleep and like tracking all my

1185
00:59:35,639 --> 00:59:39,280
data and all this stuff and like using this just

1186
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:41,639
have to like track sleep data and things like that,

1187
00:59:41,719 --> 00:59:45,719
and it's been really really interesting to see the effects

1188
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,519
of things like you know, my my dinner time and

1189
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:54,079
working out and all these things on sleep. But to

1190
00:59:54,119 --> 00:59:56,679
the point of my reading. What's really interesting in what

1191
00:59:56,719 --> 01:00:01,559
I found is more than anything else, reading before bed

1192
01:00:01,679 --> 01:00:04,559
with you know, like dimming the lights and you know,

1193
01:00:04,639 --> 01:00:06,800
blocking blue light and all that kind of stuff. But

1194
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:10,719
then reading for about fifteen minutes has had the highest

1195
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:15,639
significant impact on my sleep quality than anything else. And

1196
01:00:15,679 --> 01:00:18,239
it can be I mostly read nonfiction, so it's not

1197
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:21,519
even like like I'm reading just like slop to turn

1198
01:00:21,559 --> 01:00:23,880
my brain off, Like it's like interesting stuff that I'm

1199
01:00:24,199 --> 01:00:24,719
to read.

1200
01:00:25,639 --> 01:00:27,719
Speaker 1: But I got some trashy romance novel.

1201
01:00:28,039 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. I mean I'm sure that would work too.

1202
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:35,239
But yeah, just like reading for fifteen minutes before bed

1203
01:00:35,599 --> 01:00:39,920
has had the most, like, uh, has the highest impact

1204
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:43,639
on my sleep quality I've seen in the data compared

1205
01:00:43,679 --> 01:00:46,639
to anything else, and it's it's it is really really fascinating,

1206
01:00:46,639 --> 01:00:49,719
and like I was a gracious reader growing up, and

1207
01:00:49,719 --> 01:00:51,400
it's something I've been trying to get back into just

1208
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:53,199
like given time, it's been a nice thing to just

1209
01:00:53,239 --> 01:00:55,760
be able to read and like you know, just get

1210
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:59,440
through books and stuff every day. But the impact on

1211
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:02,679
sleep has been incredible, Like I don't know, it's even

1212
01:01:02,719 --> 01:01:05,559
more than like just meditating or like breathing or whatever.

1213
01:01:05,599 --> 01:01:10,880
It's like reading has had an incredible impact. So you

1214
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:13,800
should think about reading that book right before you sleep.

1215
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:20,320
Speaker 1: I'm gonna test your theory because, like I my wife,

1216
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:23,719
you know, she's always like using her Apple Watch, you know,

1217
01:01:23,719 --> 01:01:26,559
and she breaks down her sleep and you know, does

1218
01:01:27,159 --> 01:01:31,039
similar to what you're describing here. So I'm gonna challenge

1219
01:01:31,079 --> 01:01:35,760
her to read for fifteen minutes and see how that affects. Yeah,

1220
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:37,599
for sleep quality, I've.

1221
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:44,119
Speaker 2: Seen like the highest impact on both my heart great dips,

1222
01:01:44,159 --> 01:01:46,719
so like how how much lower does my heartbreak go

1223
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,440
and how stable is it throughout the night, as well

1224
01:01:49,599 --> 01:01:53,599
as rem sleep cycles, Like the amount of remsleep that

1225
01:01:53,679 --> 01:01:59,000
I get is noticeably higher. I think the last time

1226
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,519
I checked was around fourteen percent higher or something like

1227
01:02:02,559 --> 01:02:05,480
that when I do read a night, and that just

1228
01:02:05,519 --> 01:02:08,519
like ten minutes of reading isn't enough. So yeah, she

1229
01:02:08,519 --> 01:02:10,960
should be able to see kind of a noticeable impact

1230
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:14,440
in the data for it. And so like the top

1231
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:17,280
two things have been like eating dinner earlier, so you

1232
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:20,559
get like fewer like blood sugar spike throughout the night

1233
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:23,519
and then reading for ten to fifteen minutes before bed

1234
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:26,840
have been like the two highest impact things that I

1235
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:28,760
have done. Because I know you can do like a

1236
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:32,920
lot of things with like you know, cooling mattresses and

1237
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:35,000
all these other things, but it's like those are like

1238
01:02:35,199 --> 01:02:38,519
much more you know, investment oriented, but like these are

1239
01:02:38,559 --> 01:02:42,079
like small things that everyone can do, and so I think,

1240
01:02:42,119 --> 01:02:44,119
like that's been what's really interesting about it is like

1241
01:02:44,519 --> 01:02:50,039
very small, what are the most tactical lifestyle changes you

1242
01:02:50,079 --> 01:02:53,519
can make to see noticeable improvement in the data, And

1243
01:02:53,599 --> 01:02:55,119
like these are the things that I think that I found.

1244
01:02:55,119 --> 01:02:58,800
So it's really really really interesting. So probably to experiment

1245
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:00,639
more with with this kind of thing going forward.

1246
01:03:00,719 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can drop fifteen grand on a cooling mattress

1247
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,159
or spend fifteen minutes reading your choice, Yes.

1248
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:10,159
Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly. Maybe I'll do both. I don't know, but

1249
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:11,719
right now, right this is good enough.

1250
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've seen the cooling mattresses and I was like, oh,

1251
01:03:16,119 --> 01:03:18,679
that looks so cool, but I know, I know, I

1252
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:19,159
just can't.

1253
01:03:19,639 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 2: It's just the technology, the gadget geek in me that like, right, yeah,

1254
01:03:23,039 --> 01:03:27,639
those things I don't need that. I just read a

1255
01:03:27,679 --> 01:03:28,920
book and it's good enough.

1256
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:36,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, especially for me, because I I feel for you,

1257
01:03:36,079 --> 01:03:39,079
guys like you, and people like my wife, because on

1258
01:03:39,119 --> 01:03:45,679
a really, really bad night, it'll take me like forty five,

1259
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:48,519
maybe fifty seconds to hit deep sleep from the time

1260
01:03:48,599 --> 01:03:49,400
I laid down.

1261
01:03:52,199 --> 01:03:54,559
Speaker 2: Oh man, I am so so jealous.

1262
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:59,079
Speaker 1: I think it comes Oh my camera just died, but

1263
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:02,960
I'm still here. I think it comes back to early

1264
01:04:03,519 --> 01:04:07,760
after I left high school, I joined the military, and

1265
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:11,119
on my first I was in the Navy, and my

1266
01:04:11,159 --> 01:04:15,159
first trip out to see my bunk was right underneath

1267
01:04:15,159 --> 01:04:17,400
the flight deck on a carrier, and they were doing

1268
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:20,440
flight operations the whole time, which is a I can't

1269
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:24,599
remember how much it weighs, but there's like this huge

1270
01:04:24,639 --> 01:04:29,280
sled underneath the flight deck that slings the jets off

1271
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:31,679
the end and then it you know, they have to

1272
01:04:31,679 --> 01:04:34,840
bring it to a stop before it hits the end

1273
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:37,199
of the aircraft carrier for obvious reasons, and so this

1274
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:39,840
thing's like going back and forth over your head the

1275
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:44,079
entire time you down there, and then you know they're like, hey,

1276
01:04:44,119 --> 01:04:45,880
you know, this is your time to sleep. You can

1277
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:48,239
sleep or not sleep. It's entirely up to you. So

1278
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:50,679
I think that might have set some habits for me

1279
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:52,280
that are still working for the outfit.

1280
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:56,639
Speaker 2: Now. Yeah, you can probably sleep through anything, now, I bet.

1281
01:04:56,559 --> 01:05:02,119
Speaker 1: Huh for sure. Yeah, it's weird through anything unless it's

1282
01:05:02,159 --> 01:05:04,159
a noise it's not supposed to be there. Like I

1283
01:05:04,159 --> 01:05:08,960
can sleep through thunderstorms and lightning and wind and trucks

1284
01:05:09,039 --> 01:05:12,599
driving by, But the minute that there's a single noise

1285
01:05:12,639 --> 01:05:16,239
that's not supposed to be there, I'm instantly wide awake.

1286
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 2: Interesting, Yeah, probably your brain is probably kind of wired

1287
01:05:20,079 --> 01:05:23,320
that way to, like I guess, filter out things that

1288
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:27,920
are obvious to I guess is like general background noise.

1289
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:31,079
So I guess this is generally a good thing. Yeah,

1290
01:05:31,079 --> 01:05:35,119
I'm definitely much much light sleeper than that, for sure. Well,

1291
01:05:35,199 --> 01:05:37,159
I think about idp's all along.

1292
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:41,920
Speaker 1: So I've actually read a lot about how much how

1293
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:46,239
much our brain does filter out just to keep from

1294
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:50,599
overwhelming our conscious mind. Like someone I can't remember what

1295
01:05:50,599 --> 01:05:52,719
the numbers are, but someone had like an actual data

1296
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:56,760
rate and it was like something like, yeah, like two

1297
01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:01,039
megabits per second is what our consciousness can handle our

1298
01:06:01,079 --> 01:06:04,599
subconsciousness filtering out like forty gig per second or something

1299
01:06:05,559 --> 01:06:07,559
huge like that. And I was like, well, those are

1300
01:06:07,559 --> 01:06:09,719
cool numbers. Not really sure how you came up with

1301
01:06:09,719 --> 01:06:13,039
those numbers, but it's it's cool, and it had had

1302
01:06:13,079 --> 01:06:15,320
something to do with I was doing research on psychedelics

1303
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:17,880
and then that was like one of the things is

1304
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:20,719
like psychedelics, you know, like turn that filter off for

1305
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:25,679
a brief period of time because over time your brain learns, oh, this,

1306
01:06:25,679 --> 01:06:27,719
this person's not interested in this. I'm gonna filter it

1307
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:31,000
all out. But then psychedelics like give you access to

1308
01:06:31,039 --> 01:06:34,280
the full menu and allow you to say no, no,

1309
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:35,760
don't filter this out anymore.

1310
01:06:36,719 --> 01:06:40,280
Speaker 2: Interesting. It's an interesting framing. Yeah, I haven't really thought

1311
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:40,719
about that.

1312
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 1: It's been interesting. But anyway, so if people want to

1313
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:47,199
get in touch with you talk more about this kind

1314
01:06:47,239 --> 01:06:49,599
of stuff, Ganesh, what's the best way.

1315
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:54,559
Speaker 2: Adamil LinkedIn or shoot me an email? Ganesha cortex on Io.

1316
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:57,800
Speaker 1: All right, awesome, thank you so much for being on

1317
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:00,000
a show. This has been a pleasure to chat with you.

1318
01:07:00,119 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 2: Thanks for having Yeah.

1319
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:03,719
Speaker 1: For sure, and definitely let me know when you're ready

1320
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:08,159
to talk about the new hidden top secret initiatives on

1321
01:07:08,239 --> 01:07:09,159
core text let me know.

1322
01:07:09,239 --> 01:07:11,119
Speaker 2: I want to have you back on I will drop

1323
01:07:11,159 --> 01:07:11,599
you a note.

1324
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:15,079
Speaker 1: Would love to all Right, cool and for everyone listening,

1325
01:07:15,119 --> 01:07:17,719
Thank you guys for listening. Be sure and let me

1326
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:19,719
know what you guys want to see on the show,

1327
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,559
how you liked the episode or anything like that, and

1328
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:23,880
I'll see everyone next week