WEBVTT 1 00:00:16.039 --> 00:00:18.480 Coming to you from the dining room table at East 2 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:22.640 Barbary Lane. Welcome to a very special edition of Full 3 00:00:22.679 --> 00:00:24.480 Circle the Podcast. 4 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:26.519 I am your host Charles Tyson Jr. 5 00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:29.839 And I'm your host Martha Madrigal. Our guest today is 6 00:00:29.839 --> 00:00:33.799 an award winning journalist and our friend who took an 7 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:40.039 incredibly important discussion around our nation. To my mind, their 8 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:44.560 book coming out tomorrow is one of the most important books, 9 00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:47.320 if not the most important book of twenty twenty four. 10 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:52.439 The book is American Teenager, How trans kids are surviving 11 00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:57.840 hate and finding joy in a turbulent era. Nico Lang, 12 00:00:58.079 --> 00:00:59.960 Welcome to the Full Circle Table. 13 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:02.719 Thanks, it's so good to be here, such a long 14 00:01:02.759 --> 00:01:03.359 time coming. 15 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:07.079 I know, I know. We we were just talking about 16 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:12.359 So we met last year at the LGBTQ Journalism. 17 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:15.359 Conference and I can't believe it was just a year, just. 18 00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:17.480 A year ago in Philadelphia, and Charles and I got 19 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:20.719 to be panelists on your panel, which was term. 20 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:22.799 You Saved that wild panel. 21 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:26.359 So yeah, well, so we had for folks who were 22 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:28.599 not privy to that, you know, to that discussion or 23 00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:31.359 we're not in the room, we had one panelist too 24 00:01:31.480 --> 00:01:35.640 very much, we'll say, went rogue a bit. Yeah, Martha 25 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:38.719 did a great job of like coordinating with me, if 26 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:41.480 you will, in real time to keep kind of reeling 27 00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:44.000 her in and you know, keeping us on topic and 28 00:01:44.120 --> 00:01:45.239 keeping us moving along. 29 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:49.239 Yeah, it worked well. It felt it felt very collaborative. 30 00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:51.640 Yeah, and it was. 31 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:53.640 And it definitely I was like, oh, this is a 32 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:56.719 podcasting pro right here, because in a podcast you always 33 00:01:56.760 --> 00:01:59.560 had a very yes and medium, right, you always have 34 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:01.719 to be like ready and quick and like, you know, 35 00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:02.879 like present. 36 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:05.680 I never really thought about the yes and nature of it, 37 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:09.240 but that is absolutely correct. It is because sometimes you'd 38 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:11.159 have things just happen. 39 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:15.080 Sometimes I had a client tell me you taught me 40 00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:17.719 the word end, and I'm like, what are you talking about? 41 00:02:18.199 --> 00:02:21.319 And it was someone said something like, you know, sometimes 42 00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:25.719 you come off as intimidating, and I said, and you know, 43 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:28.960 it's like, did you ever think that's you know, expedient, 44 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:32.199 like I'm not trying to be distant, but I'm busy, 45 00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:34.960 like at work. And it was like, no, but that 46 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:37.879 was brilliant. Now I know the word end, like I 47 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:42.159 don't have to explain myself like where are you going 48 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:44.520 with this? So I love it as a question to 49 00:02:44.759 --> 00:02:45.479 end and. 50 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:48.680 You're such a role model, Martha. 51 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:49.800 Thank you. 52 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:52.280 And it's so much wise, my friend. It's so much 53 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:54.000 more positive than what I normally do. 54 00:02:54.199 --> 00:02:54.639 Was just so. 55 00:02:57.280 --> 00:02:59.520 I'm very much just so kind of person. So I 56 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:04.039 appreciate that. What a difference a word nakes, right, truly. 57 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:06.599 I think it's like the Jersey in you though. Jersey 58 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:07.199 is very. 59 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:12.080 So what it is for me, right, and you know 60 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:15.439 you have the neck to us. Cell Philadelphia and South 61 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:19.000 Jersey are kind of one big place true. 62 00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:20.919 Actually, oh yeah, you know. 63 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:23.520 We get a little money in the neighborhoods in Philly 64 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:26.000 and come over to Jersey. I, on the other hand, 65 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:28.960 grew up here in Jersey and then went to Philly 66 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:32.639 for thirty five years so and then came back with 67 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:34.919 the pandemic and here we are, which is part of 68 00:03:34.960 --> 00:03:37.800 the whole full circle thing, the whole full circle thing. 69 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:39.719 I'm back in the house where it all began. 70 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:41.560 There you go. 71 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:46.520 So that's us. We had the absolute honor of being 72 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:51.759 early readers of this work. It moved me incredibly because 73 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:56.000 this is such a real account of what is going on. 74 00:03:56.199 --> 00:04:02.599 It's unvarnished. It is not as much as I know 75 00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:04.960 that you as a human have a point of view. 76 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:10.240 This was really letting the folks you talked with speak 77 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:12.879 for themselves and tell us who they were, and that 78 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:18.399 is That is world class storytelling. And you know, I'm 79 00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:22.879 in love with this book. I've been so excited that 80 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:26.120 about us coming to this place where folks finally will 81 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:27.079 have access to it. 82 00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:27.439 Yes. 83 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:30.000 Yeah, so your baby is about to be born. 84 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:33.399 I know I've been pregnant for like two years and 85 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:38.199 really this child's coming out. I keep referring to this 86 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:41.360 as like my like pre partum depression era, where you're like, 87 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:44.439 you've been pregnant for a long time, your ankles are swollen, 88 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:46.240 you have this giant thing inside you and you just 89 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:46.800 want it out. 90 00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:48.319 So I am ready. 91 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:50.439 I am very ready to finally be a mother. 92 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:54.800 Yay, yay. So you know I want to go back 93 00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:59.879 to I'm not going to speak for you. Clearly, there 94 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:03.360 there was reason this book had to be written. Can 95 00:05:03.399 --> 00:05:06.360 you talk a little bit about that? What gave you 96 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:10.079 the not just the idea, but the wherewithal to travel 97 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:13.759 the country and you know, have these conversations. 98 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:17.199 Sure, I think really for me, what it came down 99 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:20.600 to is that I had the access and the resources 100 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:23.040 to write this book and it needed to be written, 101 00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:25.920 So I just had a responsibility to do it because 102 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:27.920 I've been doing this work for such a long time. 103 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:31.639 I know so many of families of trans kids already, 104 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:35.199 you know, like I've been an LGBTQ plus journalist for 105 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:38.160 over ten years. I've been working with families of trans 106 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:41.519 kids for eight years. I know families across the country. 107 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:44.519 They like trust me, they love me, like we're like friends. 108 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:46.360 Many of them you're not really supposed to be friends 109 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:49.600 with their sources, but it's kind of inevitable if you 110 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:51.600 stay in touch with people for such a long time, 111 00:05:51.639 --> 00:05:53.839 Like you watch their kids grow up, you get like 112 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:56.360 photos and updates when they're like graduating from high school, 113 00:05:56.399 --> 00:05:59.639 graduating from college. You know, there's this like camaraderie and 114 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:02.560 this more importantly, this trust that was built in. And 115 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:04.759 I had a sense that if I had that trust 116 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:07.079 already and I didn't have to work for it the 117 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:09.959 way that some other journalists coming into this like, might 118 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:12.920 that I could do something really special with that, that 119 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:15.639 I could go so much deeper and just give people 120 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:18.680 like a more interesting book, not like a better book, 121 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:21.399 but just like something that would like get to this 122 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:26.560 richness that might otherwise be lacking. So if I could 123 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:28.360 do it, I knew that I had to, and I 124 00:06:28.439 --> 00:06:30.680 knew I particularly had to because of everything that we're 125 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:33.759 seeing during this like awful political moment that we're all 126 00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:36.160 living through. More than six hundred and fifty bills this 127 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:39.759 year were put forward across the country targeting trans people. 128 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:44.240 The majority target trans youth, and through that, we very 129 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:48.800 rarely focused on the impact on these kids' daily lives, 130 00:06:48.839 --> 00:06:51.439 like how are they feeling all through all this, How 131 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:53.560 are they getting through it, how are they experiencing it? 132 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:55.439 How are they trying to figure out how to be 133 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:58.240 a person like when all this stuff is happening, Because 134 00:06:58.279 --> 00:07:00.720 imagine that you are a child growing up in the 135 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:04.839 shadow of people hating you, right and using that like 136 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:08.360 politicized eight hate to try to keep you from having rights. 137 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:10.920 And this has always been the way for trans kids, 138 00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:13.600 right and for trans adults. They've always known this. 139 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:14.040 To be true. 140 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:16.959 But it just feels like it's become so much more 141 00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:20.240 upfront and so much more organized now than maybe we've 142 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:23.480 seen in some like previous decades, and kids are really 143 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:25.680 like dealing with the front of it, And I wanted 144 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:28.240 to put them at the center of their own narratives. 145 00:07:28.279 --> 00:07:30.839 We've very rarely heard from them about what they think 146 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:33.399 about all this, And there's so much value to like 147 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:36.040 learning about the lives of trans kids and like how 148 00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:40.079 they're like not only experiencing this moment, but how they 149 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:43.240 experience the world. Like to me, like, we've treated these 150 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:46.519 kids as if they're like not human or they experience 151 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:48.720 the world differently than the rest of us. But they're 152 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:51.399 just kids, and they're just people like trying to like 153 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:53.839 go about their lives. And I really just wanted to 154 00:07:53.879 --> 00:07:56.720 remind people of that, of that it's a really like 155 00:07:56.759 --> 00:07:59.399 sad political goal to have to remind people of the 156 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:00.759 humanity trans kids. 157 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:03.879 But here we are, truly, it is, and you know, 158 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:08.040 that is the biggest fight, as I see it, beyond 159 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:11.240 the political nonsense, you know, and we can get into 160 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:13.720 that a little bit, but the biggest fight is simply 161 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:18.199 the idea that we are real, We exist, regardless of 162 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:22.040 how you decide to talk about us. It's always been thus, 163 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:26.120 you know. And I've got a couple trans elders who 164 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:30.399 I'm really close to who did transition early nineteen seventies, 165 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:36.320 and they're like, you know, we didn't fear in the 166 00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:40.519 same ways. You know, we were not a political football. 167 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:44.639 We were rare and walking around and there weren't many 168 00:08:44.679 --> 00:08:46.840 of us, and they might look at us like we're freaks, 169 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:50.559 but they let us be by and large as compared 170 00:08:50.600 --> 00:08:57.320 to this onslaught of I think, misguided, outdated, already rhetoric. 171 00:08:57.879 --> 00:08:59.840 And it's like I have to ask myself time and 172 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:02.480 time and again, it's why we started this podcast. Why 173 00:09:02.519 --> 00:09:04.799 are you even doing that? Right? 174 00:09:04.840 --> 00:09:05.039 You know? 175 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:07.519 Is this the last group of people to hate? Is 176 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:10.879 that how this works? Because I think, you know, the 177 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:16.200 boomerang effect, if you will, to all of this nonsense 178 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:23.519 is we've got Americans, decent, thoughtful, fair minded Americans who 179 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:26.080 know a lot more about trans people than they ever 180 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:30.960 did because of these jackasses and the harm that they 181 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:31.559 are causing. 182 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:33.559 Yeah, I think that's true. 183 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:36.360 But one of the things that one of the reasons 184 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:39.399 I believe that they've been able to exploit trans people 185 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:43.120 politically the way they have is because still even with 186 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:46.320 so many advances and like visibility and education, like these 187 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:49.559 incredible trans people who are out like living their lives publicly, 188 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:52.840 like the Laverne Coxes of the world, the Elliott Pages 189 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:56.679 of the world, They're still like so much like lack 190 00:09:56.679 --> 00:09:59.039 of education that's out there. Like I was just reading 191 00:09:59.240 --> 00:10:02.120 a poll this week from the Public Religion Research Institute 192 00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:05.320 that only eleven percent of Americans know a trans person. 193 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:08.120 And it's actually even smaller than that because some of 194 00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:11.440 those people are trans people who know themselves, right, So 195 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:13.840 you can then shave off another like one percent or 196 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:16.279 one point six percent of that, so that leaves you 197 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:19.080 with around like, you know, ten or like nine point 198 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:21.240 four if we want to be really like granular about it. 199 00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:23.519 So that's not a lot of people that have someone 200 00:10:23.559 --> 00:10:27.080 in their lives who's trans. And when you have like 201 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:29.440 like that like kind of lack of knowledge at such 202 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:33.200 a widespread scale, it creates this or that it means 203 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:36.039 that there's this vacuum that can be filled with like hatred, 204 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:41.000 with misinformation, with stigma because there are so few people 205 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:46.000 like gatekeepers, like people in power, who are fighting that misinformation. 206 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:49.519 Like it's really allowed it to flourish. And that's why 207 00:10:49.559 --> 00:10:51.440 I book one of the many reasons that a book 208 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:54.399 like this needed to exist, because like it then becomes 209 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:56.200 an incumbent on all of us to do what we 210 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:58.879 can to speak back to it, right, Like how do 211 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:02.200 you fight miss and information, but with good information, right, 212 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:06.559 but with like humanizing people, but by showing people that 213 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:09.720 they're real, Like I really heard what you said about that. 214 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:12.840 The fight is to still prove that, like, trans people exist, 215 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:14.840 and I think that there are so many people who 216 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:18.120 still don't know that and don't understand that because they 217 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:21.480 don't have someone in their lives to humanize that, to 218 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:24.320 literalize the struggles of trans people for them. So it 219 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:27.200 just becomes then incumbent on storytellers to do that kind 220 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:29.360 of work to help get people's stories out there. 221 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:33.679 Absolutely, and that's another reason why your book is so 222 00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:37.919 valuable because you know, the big one of the big 223 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:41.639 catchphrases that gets banded about all the time with this 224 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:46.000 this onslaught is you know, we're protecting the children. We're 225 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:50.480 worried about the children. And it's like it's very obvious 226 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:53.960 that a you have never met a trans child, you 227 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:55.919 have no idea what that experience is like. And have 228 00:11:56.039 --> 00:11:58.600 you ever met a child, because it's like they have 229 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:03.759 this like theore medical, fictionalized, romanticized version of what the 230 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:06.879 being a child is and it's like that's never been 231 00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:10.080 the case for any walking human ever and you know, 232 00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:15.080 nothing that you're you're pushing actually benefits any child ever. 233 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:18.600 And if I thought that these people actually read books, 234 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:21.799 I would put a copy in each of their hands 235 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:23.799 so they could at least, you know, get an actual 236 00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:27.080 idea of what the situation is like for these kids. 237 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:33.039 You know, Yeah, absolutely, I think you're getting to something 238 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:37.240 really critical here, because it's not just that these people 239 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.720 don't know trans kids. That's true, they don't, but they 240 00:12:40.759 --> 00:12:43.440 also don't want to know trans kids because they've had 241 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:46.720 the opportunity to learn over and over and over again 242 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:48.840 and have refused it. And I'm not talking about your 243 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:51.639 like you're like run of the mill Republican, right, you know, 244 00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:54.399 just your next door neighbor who lives lives near you. Right, 245 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:56.919 We're not talking about that person. We're talking about Republican 246 00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:01.360 lawmakers who that you have dedicated advocate. See groups like ACLU. 247 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:04.320 The ACLU has branches in just about every state that 248 00:13:04.360 --> 00:13:07.320 are trying to do education work around this messaging work. 249 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:09.559 They're trying to meet with lawmakers, they're trying to provide 250 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:12.440 them with better information. They're trying to get trans kids 251 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:16.080 that they know right to come to like the legislature 252 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:19.519 with them or to meet with lawmakers specifically to humanize 253 00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:22.679 these stories, to say, like you should meet a constituent 254 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:26.399 who your policy's impact. Please meet Timmy. He's a seven 255 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:28.559 year old trans boy and he wants to be able 256 00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:31.039 to use the correct bathroom at a school. They're not 257 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:34.919 taking those information, those invitations, or if they go to 258 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:38.279 the legislature, let's say, like Ruby is a really great 259 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:40.720 example one of the kids in this book. She's an 260 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:43.480 incredible young trans woman in Texas. She was brave enough 261 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:45.720 to go speak of the legislature there to talk about 262 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:49.360 how anti trans policies affect her, and the lawmakers didn't listen. 263 00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:51.360 They were looking at the ceiling, they were looking at 264 00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:54.480 the floor, they were checking their emails, they were like 265 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:57.200 staring at their cell phones, like, oh, isn't this so interesting, 266 00:13:57.639 --> 00:13:59.759 rather than just like looking at her and the eye 267 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:01.320 in a knowledging her humanity. 268 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:01.960 Right. 269 00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:05.799 So it's not just that like Republican lawmakers don't know 270 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:08.799 trans people and that that's breeding a certain amount of 271 00:14:08.840 --> 00:14:11.840 like fear and misinformation. Misinformation. I think that's almost too 272 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:14.960 passive here, Like they don't want to know trans people 273 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:17.600 because then they wouldn't be able to do this right, 274 00:14:17.799 --> 00:14:20.639 like they wouldn't be able to scapegoat and exploit trans 275 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:23.440 people to consolidate their power in the way that they do. 276 00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:26.080 So it's a very unintentional ignorance here, at least on 277 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:27.039 the part of lawmakers. 278 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:31.000 And it's also really important to note this is not 279 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:35.679 new now. This is you know, queer people and trans 280 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:39.159 people have experienced this for many years. People of color 281 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:43.039 have experienced this for millennia. I mean, this is not 282 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:47.759 new stuff to point to a group of marginalized people 283 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:51.240 and true, the rarer the better you know, the less 284 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:54.120 the less of them you might encounter, the easier it 285 00:14:54.200 --> 00:14:59.639 is to lie about them, right and and create something 286 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:03.360 to fear when we are the least scary people in 287 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:07.279 the world. I just we are. I mean, come on, 288 00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:12.480 And that's the thing, you know, I have these conversations 289 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:15.159 all of the time, you know. One of them recently 290 00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:18.879 was with a nurse trying to tell me that housing 291 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:21.480 a trans person on a unit with you know, a 292 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:24.840 trans woman with cis women who have you know, survived 293 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:27.399 sexual assault not a good thing. And I said, and 294 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:30.240 why is that? How many of them were actually assaulted 295 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:36.559 by transwomen? And beyond that point, we are far more 296 00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:40.000 likely to be the victims of sexual assault above sis 297 00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:42.519 women than we are to be the perpetrators. And that's 298 00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:45.639 those are just the facts and you need to know 299 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:49.679 them if you're going to form a policy right around 300 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:51.600 your thoughts and. 301 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:54.320 Not an opinion, but right. 302 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:56.559 And the good news is most of the ship doesn't 303 00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:59.480 pass right. The good news is a lot of it 304 00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:03.440 dies in midi. The little bit that passes gets challenged immediately. 305 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:06.559 Thank God for the the aclu I light candles for 306 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:09.679 Chase Strange out every day that may be stay in 307 00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:13.759 good health and full voice, because there are people out 308 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:16.519 there fighting the good fight. But one of the problems here. 309 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:21.480 You know, every time you know, a journalist wants to discuss, 310 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:25.039 particularly in television journalism, every time you want to discuss 311 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:27.840 trans people, you know, I go back to nothing about 312 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:30.039 us without us. If you don't have a trans person 313 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:33.440 at that table, this is not a full discussion. You know, 314 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:38.360 you talking about my life is such bullshit that you 315 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:41.799 know I can't watch it. But you know, if you're 316 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:45.240 trying to actually, you know, put some balance into this situation, 317 00:16:45.559 --> 00:16:48.519 let's yeah, let's always have an expert, not just an expert, 318 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:51.480 Let's have an actual trans person, and you did that. 319 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:54.679 You did that with you know, the young people who 320 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:57.679 are most marginalized, who are afraid, who just want to 321 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:00.159 be like another kid, you know, the other kids, they 322 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:02.799 just want to fit in. You know, all of us 323 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:06.319 can remember that part of childhood, you know, of figuring 324 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:10.400 out socialization and figuring out, you know, where we belong. 325 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:17.359 And I remember clearly. I'm fifty eight now, I clearly 326 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:20.720 remember those moments of if they just understood that I 327 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:23.720 was a girl, I wouldn't be on the ground right now, 328 00:17:24.759 --> 00:17:28.119 you know, they just saw me as I am instead 329 00:17:28.119 --> 00:17:31.119 of the way that they view me. I wouldn't have 330 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:36.079 bruises right because the other girls didn't get treated that way, 331 00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:38.799 but I was, you know, I was something that they 332 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:41.559 were not familiar with. And I still remember that feeling, 333 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:46.279 and I think you capture that like that the folks 334 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:49.319 who are trying to legislate bathrooms and it's one of 335 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:52.039 the most backward things I've ever seen. Like have you 336 00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:54.240 never been to a nightclub where there are two stalls 337 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:58.440 and a line like come on? But you know this 338 00:17:58.599 --> 00:18:01.839 idea that we legislate the bastrooms and we're protecting the 339 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:06.480 innocence of children you're none of that is true. None 340 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:08.920 of that is true. When we try to burn books 341 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:12.960 or exclude books. You know, what you're doing is saying, 342 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:17.319 I don't want my child to be more more empathetic, tolerant, 343 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:21.279 or knowledgeable about people that I just don't like. And 344 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:23.759 that to me is not protecting anyone. It never has, 345 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:27.799 it never will. So you know, to be able to 346 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:32.119 read the lived experience, and you went to how many 347 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:34.319 different places across this country. 348 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:37.759 At seven states, so seven families in seven states. 349 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:42.640 Seven families and seven states, different circumstances financially, support wise, 350 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:46.640 state wise, you know what was happening, and they get 351 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:51.039 to speak. Finally they get you know, you can sit 352 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.079 with this book and you can pay attention, and you 353 00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:56.400 can go back and reread that and understand the humanity. 354 00:18:56.599 --> 00:18:58.640 And that is the most important word I think you've said, 355 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:02.799 because you know, when we dehumanize others, we can do 356 00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:07.400 almost anything to them and justify it absolutely. 357 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.160 And I think it's interesting that you brought up before 358 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:13.759 the way trans people were often silence and discussions about 359 00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:19.759 their own lives, because I that was a really critical 360 00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:23.200 influence in the way that the book was written. In 361 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:26.279 terms of me not really being much of a character, 362 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:28.319 Like I sort of like pop in a little bit 363 00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:30.119 every now and then, but for the most part, I 364 00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:31.720 try to like be as fly on the wall as 365 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:34.119 possible while also you know, being a human presence, so 366 00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:37.240 you'd strike a balance there. But so much of the 367 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:40.880 book really focuses solely on the voices of these trans 368 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.599 kids and on the experiences of these trans kids to 369 00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:46.160 be almost sort of a character study of their lives. 370 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:47.079 Because there was. 371 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:50.400 A time under the Trump administration when they were you know, 372 00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:52.960 passing all these anti trans policies and they were stripping 373 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.519 away these protections, and you would read about what was 374 00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:57.799 going on in like the New York Times or like 375 00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:00.200 less of the Washington Post, but definitely the New York Time, 376 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:03.079 and they wouldn't quote a single trans person, like and 377 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:05.799 you know when talking about the impact of this policy. 378 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:07.119 And it's like, if you want to. 379 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:10.480 Understand the people who are being impacted by you know, 380 00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:13.480 Trump banning trans people from the military, you talk to 381 00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:16.279 trans people in the military, or you talk to trans 382 00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:18.559 people who are paying attention to this and are worried 383 00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:20.920 they're going to come after them next, right, Like, there 384 00:20:20.920 --> 00:20:23.880 are ways that you can like humanize that discussion and 385 00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:26.799 also like center the voices of the people who are 386 00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:30.400 actually impacted here, and it just wasn't happening over and 387 00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:33.160 over again. It still happens in reporting on trans people. 388 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:37.440 And you said it best, like when you take away 389 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:40.119 someone's voice, when you take away someone's humanity, you can 390 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:43.640 justify doing almost anything to them. And here, you know, 391 00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:47.440 in responding to that kind of rature, I really wanted 392 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:50.519 to start not with like you know, we often start 393 00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:52.519 with like trans one on one when we do education, 394 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:54.640 where it's like, well, these are the words that you 395 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:57.160 need to use. These are the pronouns that people use, 396 00:20:57.200 --> 00:20:59.519 and you know, defining things for people. All that stuff 397 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:02.440 is super like as somebody uses day them pronouns. I 398 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:04.039 am all up on pronoun discussions. 399 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:04.640 I love them. 400 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:08.200 They're great, but we often skip over the part where 401 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:11.519