Speaker 1: What's up everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
where we left off with Michael Thomas interview with the
OIG Inspectors. Question do you remember having any conversation with
Control Center or the Absolute Tenant about the fact that
those numbers are different? Thomas? No question. So do you
remember were you the one who called that number on
that night? Thomas, I don't remember. Question you don't remember? Thomas,
I don't remember. Question you don't remember? And I only
say this just because of everything that surrounding this. These
were the three counts prior and obviously Thomas, uh huh.
This is the kind of reason for us interviewing you, Thomas.
But then also he gets cut off. Question do you remember? It?
Says here you can look at the next So this
is ZA. What does that number say? Thomas sevn dy
two question? Who who's handwriting is this? Thomas? This one
is mine? That's mine? Question? So that's all yours? And
you did sign this one? Thomas? Yes? Question and this
is the three am count Thomas, Uh huh. Question what
does this say? Thomas seventy two? Question? All right, so
do you recall a conversation with the absolute tenant with
regard to the discrepancy. Thomas, I don't recall. I don't
recall a conversation with redacted the discrepancy. But I'm sure
that another one was sent down changing because they wanted
to clear. I'm sure that another one was sent down
saying seventy two with the correct number on it. The
person that can see that's down there definitely would have
verified that, oh, you can have the wrong number and
switched it out. Question, do you remember those speaking with
the person on the phone and saying that, Thomas, I
don't question. You don't remember any conversation with them telling
you you've got to do a new account, a new
count slip Thomas, I don't recall any conversation. I would
be sure that he didn't just let that just go
with the wrong number on there, or maybe he did,
maybe he didn't. Question Well, I think it was a
she that you would have spoken to, Thomas, it's a he. Question, Oh,
this person is a he, so it wouldn't have been
redacted that did this one. Thomas, what do you mean question?
Who would have Can you tell me which, because doesn't
the absolute tenant have to take one of the counts.
Can you tell me who it was that took this
count at twelve am? Thomas, I couldn't tell by the handwriting. Well,
I don't know who took it. It doesn't say who
took it, It just says who prepared it. Question Okay,
do you at all recall speaking with redacted about these
counts on August tenth, twenty nineteen. Thomas, No, I don't question. No. So,
is this the first time that you're even noticing that
the count Thomas, that the count slip was wrong? Yes,
this is the first time. Besides, this is the first
time he gets cut off. Would that be a big
deal if you're sending in account slip that's wrong though, Thomas?
Would it be a big deal? Yeah, it would be
a big deal as far as the wrong count being
called in and then the correct count slip would have
been changed before the count was cleared. Question Okay, Thomas,
So I'm sure the correct count slip probably was sent down.
It's just obviously not here. Question. But being that it's
kind of a big deal, that still doesn't spark your
memory of any kind of correction to this. Thomas, No,
it's not sparking my memory by any kind. But I'm
sure a correct count slip would have been sent down.
Question Okay, Thomas, it would have just been left at
seventy three and that's the wrong number. Question, So a
new count slip would have been sent down. Is there
any reason for them to have that count slip that
was originally prepared attached to this document Thomas, unless it
got misplaced? No, I don't know they would put onto
this document. Question Okay, fair enough? Or any supervisors present
or any supervisors? So you already said you didn't conduct
any counts, so obviously no supervisors were present for any
counts or rounds during your shift, correct Thomas? Uh huh? Question?
Were they required to be present for any counts or
rounds during their shift? Thomas? They're required to take one count.
I don't know which count they're required. I don't know
what's the book thing, but which one they required? But
are there required to take rounds in the shoe while
I'm there? I don't know. Question Okay Thomas. I don't
know if they're actually supposed to have to do one
round per unit or anything like that. I really don't know. Question.
So when you say they're required to take one count.
Do you mean in the control center Thomas, in the
control center downstairs? Yes? Question. Yeah, they're supposed to take
an institutional count Thomas, exactly. But are they required to
go to the shoe and physically do either a round
or account during each shift? Thomas? I don't know. Question
did they ever do that during any of your morning?
Your shifts from midnight to eight am? Thomas? Did they
ever come take account with me? Question? Do a round
or account with you? Thomas? Yeah, I've seen them do
it before. I've seen them just come. Some will count
a unit from time to time. Question Okay Thomas, I
don't recall that night which lieutenant, but I've seen lieutenants
I'll count that unit so you don't have to worry
about it, since we'd be shorthanded. Sometimes if they're out
there and about it that time, they'll just take it.
Then they'll take the three count. Like I said, it varies.
There's as far as I know, there's no black and
white way to do it. Question Okay, so you don't know,
Thomas as far as he gets cut off. Question a
requirement saying that you know a lieutenant needs to do
account or around Thomas, yeah, I don't know of any requirement. Question,
So you think when people did it in the shoe,
you think your understanding was that they were doing it
just to help you out? Thomas, Yeah, if they did
it while I was in the shoe, yes. Question do
you recall when you worked in the shoe, if there
were any recent times, like I know you worked on
August ninth, do you remember at all? I know it's
a different day Thomas on the sixth? I think. Question
do you remember at that time if a lieutenant helped
or assisted with the count? Thomas? I don't question, you
don't Thomas, I don't question fair enough? All right, so
you already said we don't need to go through all
these individually, Thomas, okay, Question one by one. You said
you didn't do the twelve am at three am and
the five am. What conversation did you have with Noel
about this during that time? Answer? I don't know. Question.
I know you asked specifically about the twelve am, but
what about it during your shift at all, like not
doing any of the counts or any of the rounds.
What conversation did you have with Noel Thomas, I don't
remember having any conversation with her about it, no question,
So it wasn't even discussed, like, hey, it's long night,
we're all tired, let's just not do these. Thomas, I
don't remember. Question No Thomas, I don't think so. I
don't remember anything like that question all right. So not
one of them were conducted, but no conversation with regard
to it, Thomas, I don't remember any conversation with us
talking about it or anything like that. Question. Okay. And
on the twelve am at three am, five am, did
you call in the counts or did Noel call in
the counts? Thomas, I don't remember who called in the
counts question Okay, Thomas, I don't remember. It had to
be either one. There's only two of us there. I
don't remember who did it exactly. I really don't question.
All right. So, like you said, with regard to the
rounds that are signed, both are responsible. You know you're
supposed to both conduct it. One actually has to sign Thomas.
Somebody has to call in question, somebody has to call
it in. So you're both taking responsibility for calling them in.
You both take responsibility for signing the round sheets. Thomas, yes,
question okay. So if you're documenting these rounds, did you
document these counts? You obviously had to document the counts
at the time that they were called in correct, because
you've got to provide the count slip. Thomas. Yeah. Question
so if you're preparing the count slip, why aren't you
just how long does it take to conduct the count?
Thomas fifteen minutes? Ten fifteen minutes? Question So if you're
preparing the count slip, why aren't you just conducting them? Thomas?
Like I said, just exhausted most of the time. As
you can see by my monthly I do a lot
of overtime. Like I said, again, I'm usually the internal.
I do prefer internal, but as you can see, I
do shoe quite a bit as well. And it's just
something that just happened. It really is no easy way
of putting it. It's just something that just happened. Question Okay,
Thomas regrettably. Question so how often would you document cell
counts that you didn't conduct Thomas? Not often at all? Question?
Not often, Thomas, No. Question. Would it be like one
per shift, two per shift? Thomas? No? Like I mean,
like I said, no, one's perfect and everything like that.
But I could say I've done. I usually get up
and do around, just walk around and everything like that,
and it shows that I walked around and everything like that.
But it's not very often that I just said, fuck it,
excuse my language, that I just disregard my job and
my duties. It's definitely not often at all. Question Okay, Thomas,
But like I said, he gets cut off. Question it
happened in the past. You just don't know how it Thomas, Yeah,
it did. It's I'm sure it happened in the past.
Like I said, I'm not going to sit up and
say I'm perfect. I get everything on the dot bullet that,
but I try to get as most of it that
sometimes you have bad days. Sometimes you have good days.
But with everything else, I just had one, and I
know it was a bad day. Question what about rounds?
How often would they not be Thomas? Same thing, same thing. Question,
Same thing, Thomas, same thing. You don't get as many
rounds as you can. I don't know what the number
of it's seven, ten or twelve or whatever the case
of the number it is, but you do get the
rounds in and everything even if you get them done.
If you don't get them done by every half hour.
You know what I mean, I've done them every hour
one time, you know, just being exhausted. Question right, Thomas,
but I do get some done, and like I said,
this particular time, I guess I didn't get anything done.
Question Now, does it have anything to do with like
being the twelve am to eight am shift? You know?
Why do they have three separate counts at that time? Thomas?
That's an institution thing. Question? Is it what the ind
like typically try to harm themselves? Is that why they're
done more often from that time? Thomas, it's actually changed.
Before the count was done at nine forty five, now
it's done at ten. I don't know the particular reason why.
That's just standard BOP protocol since I've been there to
make most counts. Question Okay, do you know if any
other staff members that are also entering their slip counts
and rounds? Thomas, I don't know what other staff members do.
I'm locked in whenever, if I'm on internal or if
I'm on indiscernible. If I'm on one unit, I don't
know what other housing units are doing. Question Sure, so
you mentioned that you were certainly were other times that
you didn't do counts. And rounds. So obviously, I'm assuming
you weren't always working with Noel. Correct Thomas, Yes, I
wasn't always working with Noel. Questions, I'm assuming those counts
and rounds weren't conducted with another staff member, correct Thomas, No,
I said they were conducted. Question not all of them? Thomas? Yeah,
I did say maybe not all of them, or maybe
most of them, or maybe all of them was conducted.
You know what I mean. It's not always just not
done at all, Thomas. But I have conducted my accounts before, absolutely, question.
But I want to make sure that we're certain that,
obviously you Thomas cuts them off that I said that
I'm not perfect. Question. Yeah, that you didn't conduct all
your accounts that you are documented, Thomas, you can be
certain that I'm not perfect, that I've conducted every single
one of mine all the time. But I've conducted most
of my accounts for most of the time. Question. Okay, gotcha? Thomas? Absolutely?
All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here, and
in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna
pick up where we left off. All the information that
goes with this episode can be found in the description box.