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Speaker 1: What's up everyone, and welcome to another episode of the

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Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up

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where we left off with Michael Thomas interview with the

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OIG Inspectors. Question do you remember having any conversation with

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Control Center or the Absolute Tenant about the fact that

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those numbers are different? Thomas? No question. So do you

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remember were you the one who called that number on

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that night? Thomas, I don't remember. Question you don't remember? Thomas,

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I don't remember. Question you don't remember? And I only

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say this just because of everything that surrounding this. These

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were the three counts prior and obviously Thomas, uh huh.

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This is the kind of reason for us interviewing you, Thomas.

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But then also he gets cut off. Question do you remember? It?

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Says here you can look at the next So this

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is ZA. What does that number say? Thomas sevn dy

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two question? Who who's handwriting is this? Thomas? This one

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is mine? That's mine? Question? So that's all yours? And

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you did sign this one? Thomas? Yes? Question and this

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is the three am count Thomas, Uh huh. Question what

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does this say? Thomas seventy two? Question? All right, so

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do you recall a conversation with the absolute tenant with

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regard to the discrepancy. Thomas, I don't recall. I don't

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recall a conversation with redacted the discrepancy. But I'm sure

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that another one was sent down changing because they wanted

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to clear. I'm sure that another one was sent down

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saying seventy two with the correct number on it. The

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person that can see that's down there definitely would have

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verified that, oh, you can have the wrong number and

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switched it out. Question, do you remember those speaking with

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the person on the phone and saying that, Thomas, I

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don't question. You don't remember any conversation with them telling

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you you've got to do a new account, a new

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count slip Thomas, I don't recall any conversation. I would

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be sure that he didn't just let that just go

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with the wrong number on there, or maybe he did,

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maybe he didn't. Question Well, I think it was a

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she that you would have spoken to, Thomas, it's a he. Question, Oh,

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this person is a he, so it wouldn't have been

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redacted that did this one. Thomas, what do you mean question?

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Who would have Can you tell me which, because doesn't

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the absolute tenant have to take one of the counts.

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Can you tell me who it was that took this

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count at twelve am? Thomas, I couldn't tell by the handwriting. Well,

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I don't know who took it. It doesn't say who

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took it, It just says who prepared it. Question Okay,

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do you at all recall speaking with redacted about these

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counts on August tenth, twenty nineteen. Thomas, No, I don't question. No. So,

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is this the first time that you're even noticing that

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the count Thomas, that the count slip was wrong? Yes,

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this is the first time. Besides, this is the first

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time he gets cut off. Would that be a big

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deal if you're sending in account slip that's wrong though, Thomas?

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Would it be a big deal? Yeah, it would be

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a big deal as far as the wrong count being

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called in and then the correct count slip would have

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been changed before the count was cleared. Question Okay, Thomas,

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So I'm sure the correct count slip probably was sent down.

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It's just obviously not here. Question. But being that it's

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kind of a big deal, that still doesn't spark your

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memory of any kind of correction to this. Thomas, No,

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it's not sparking my memory by any kind. But I'm

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sure a correct count slip would have been sent down.

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Question Okay, Thomas, it would have just been left at

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seventy three and that's the wrong number. Question, So a

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new count slip would have been sent down. Is there

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any reason for them to have that count slip that

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was originally prepared attached to this document Thomas, unless it

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got misplaced? No, I don't know they would put onto

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this document. Question Okay, fair enough? Or any supervisors present

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or any supervisors? So you already said you didn't conduct

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any counts, so obviously no supervisors were present for any

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counts or rounds during your shift, correct Thomas? Uh huh? Question?

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Were they required to be present for any counts or

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rounds during their shift? Thomas? They're required to take one count.

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I don't know which count they're required. I don't know

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what's the book thing, but which one they required? But

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are there required to take rounds in the shoe while

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I'm there? I don't know. Question Okay Thomas. I don't

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know if they're actually supposed to have to do one

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round per unit or anything like that. I really don't know. Question.

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So when you say they're required to take one count.

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Do you mean in the control center Thomas, in the

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control center downstairs? Yes? Question. Yeah, they're supposed to take

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an institutional count Thomas, exactly. But are they required to

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go to the shoe and physically do either a round

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or account during each shift? Thomas? I don't know. Question

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did they ever do that during any of your morning?

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Your shifts from midnight to eight am? Thomas? Did they

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ever come take account with me? Question? Do a round

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or account with you? Thomas? Yeah, I've seen them do

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it before. I've seen them just come. Some will count

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a unit from time to time. Question Okay Thomas, I

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don't recall that night which lieutenant, but I've seen lieutenants

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I'll count that unit so you don't have to worry

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about it, since we'd be shorthanded. Sometimes if they're out

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there and about it that time, they'll just take it.

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Then they'll take the three count. Like I said, it varies.

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There's as far as I know, there's no black and

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white way to do it. Question Okay, so you don't know,

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Thomas as far as he gets cut off. Question a

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requirement saying that you know a lieutenant needs to do

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account or around Thomas, yeah, I don't know of any requirement. Question,

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So you think when people did it in the shoe,

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you think your understanding was that they were doing it

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just to help you out? Thomas, Yeah, if they did

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it while I was in the shoe, yes. Question do

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you recall when you worked in the shoe, if there

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were any recent times, like I know you worked on

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August ninth, do you remember at all? I know it's

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a different day Thomas on the sixth? I think. Question

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do you remember at that time if a lieutenant helped

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or assisted with the count? Thomas? I don't question, you

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don't Thomas, I don't question fair enough? All right, so

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you already said we don't need to go through all

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these individually, Thomas, okay, Question one by one. You said

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you didn't do the twelve am at three am and

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the five am. What conversation did you have with Noel

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about this during that time? Answer? I don't know. Question.

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I know you asked specifically about the twelve am, but

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what about it during your shift at all, like not

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doing any of the counts or any of the rounds.

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What conversation did you have with Noel Thomas, I don't

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remember having any conversation with her about it, no question,

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So it wasn't even discussed, like, hey, it's long night,

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we're all tired, let's just not do these. Thomas, I

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don't remember. Question No Thomas, I don't think so. I

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don't remember anything like that question all right. So not

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one of them were conducted, but no conversation with regard

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to it, Thomas, I don't remember any conversation with us

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talking about it or anything like that. Question. Okay. And

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on the twelve am at three am, five am, did

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you call in the counts or did Noel call in

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the counts? Thomas, I don't remember who called in the

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counts question Okay, Thomas, I don't remember. It had to

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be either one. There's only two of us there. I

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don't remember who did it exactly. I really don't question.

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All right. So, like you said, with regard to the

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rounds that are signed, both are responsible. You know you're

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supposed to both conduct it. One actually has to sign Thomas.

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Somebody has to call in question, somebody has to call

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it in. So you're both taking responsibility for calling them in.

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You both take responsibility for signing the round sheets. Thomas, yes,

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question okay. So if you're documenting these rounds, did you

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document these counts? You obviously had to document the counts

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at the time that they were called in correct, because

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you've got to provide the count slip. Thomas. Yeah. Question

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so if you're preparing the count slip, why aren't you

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just how long does it take to conduct the count?

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Thomas fifteen minutes? Ten fifteen minutes? Question So if you're

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preparing the count slip, why aren't you just conducting them? Thomas?

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Like I said, just exhausted most of the time. As

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you can see by my monthly I do a lot

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of overtime. Like I said, again, I'm usually the internal.

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I do prefer internal, but as you can see, I

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do shoe quite a bit as well. And it's just

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something that just happened. It really is no easy way

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of putting it. It's just something that just happened. Question Okay,

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Thomas regrettably. Question so how often would you document cell

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counts that you didn't conduct Thomas? Not often at all? Question?

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Not often, Thomas, No. Question. Would it be like one

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per shift, two per shift? Thomas? No? Like I mean,

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like I said, no, one's perfect and everything like that.

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But I could say I've done. I usually get up

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and do around, just walk around and everything like that,

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and it shows that I walked around and everything like that.

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But it's not very often that I just said, fuck it,

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excuse my language, that I just disregard my job and

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my duties. It's definitely not often at all. Question Okay, Thomas,

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But like I said, he gets cut off. Question it

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happened in the past. You just don't know how it Thomas, Yeah,

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it did. It's I'm sure it happened in the past.

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Like I said, I'm not going to sit up and

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say I'm perfect. I get everything on the dot bullet that,

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but I try to get as most of it that

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sometimes you have bad days. Sometimes you have good days.

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But with everything else, I just had one, and I

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know it was a bad day. Question what about rounds?

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How often would they not be Thomas? Same thing, same thing. Question,

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Same thing, Thomas, same thing. You don't get as many

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rounds as you can. I don't know what the number

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of it's seven, ten or twelve or whatever the case

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of the number it is, but you do get the

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rounds in and everything even if you get them done.

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If you don't get them done by every half hour.

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You know what I mean, I've done them every hour

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one time, you know, just being exhausted. Question right, Thomas,

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but I do get some done, and like I said,

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this particular time, I guess I didn't get anything done.

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Question Now, does it have anything to do with like

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being the twelve am to eight am shift? You know?

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Why do they have three separate counts at that time? Thomas?

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That's an institution thing. Question? Is it what the ind

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like typically try to harm themselves? Is that why they're

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done more often from that time? Thomas, it's actually changed.

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Before the count was done at nine forty five, now

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it's done at ten. I don't know the particular reason why.

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That's just standard BOP protocol since I've been there to

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make most counts. Question Okay, do you know if any

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other staff members that are also entering their slip counts

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and rounds? Thomas, I don't know what other staff members do.

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I'm locked in whenever, if I'm on internal or if

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I'm on indiscernible. If I'm on one unit, I don't

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know what other housing units are doing. Question Sure, so

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you mentioned that you were certainly were other times that

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you didn't do counts. And rounds. So obviously, I'm assuming

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you weren't always working with Noel. Correct Thomas, Yes, I

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wasn't always working with Noel. Questions, I'm assuming those counts

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and rounds weren't conducted with another staff member, correct Thomas, No,

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I said they were conducted. Question not all of them? Thomas? Yeah,

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I did say maybe not all of them, or maybe

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most of them, or maybe all of them was conducted.

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You know what I mean. It's not always just not

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done at all, Thomas. But I have conducted my accounts before, absolutely, question.

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But I want to make sure that we're certain that,

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obviously you Thomas cuts them off that I said that

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I'm not perfect. Question. Yeah, that you didn't conduct all

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your accounts that you are documented, Thomas, you can be

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certain that I'm not perfect, that I've conducted every single

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one of mine all the time. But I've conducted most

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of my accounts for most of the time. Question. Okay, gotcha? Thomas? Absolutely?

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All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here, and

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in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna

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pick up where we left off. All the information that

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goes with this episode can be found in the description box.