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True Murder with your host, 64 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:18.599 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 65 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:32.280 Good evening, Carla picks up where William's first book on 66 00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:36.879 the case, Invisible Darkness, left her painting her nails in 67 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:40.599 her cell in solitary confinement in the Gothic tower of 68 00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:45.039 Kingston's Prison for Women after testifying against her ex husband 69 00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:48.560 in nineteen ninety five. Carla's life in prison was soon 70 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:52.400 going to take a very different dramatic turn with a 71 00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:56.319 thriller's pace, Carla, A Pact with the Devil, charts the 72 00:03:56.360 --> 00:04:01.120 inner life of the world's most notorious female prisoner. In Carla, 73 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:04.639 Williams lets Carla and the other key players speak for 74 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:08.439 themselves and what they have to say will surprise, horrify, 75 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:11.879 and enlighten. The book that we're featuring this evening is 76 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:15.039 Carla A Pact with the Devil, with my special guest 77 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:18.680 journalist and author Steven Williams. Welcome to the program and 78 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:21.839 thank you for agreeing to this interview. Steven Williams. 79 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:23.240 Nice to hear from you. 80 00:04:23.319 --> 00:04:27.360 Dan, Thank you very much for coming on. It's it's 81 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:29.839 going to be a big thrill for myself personally, and 82 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:33.120 I know the audience is going to enjoy every minute 83 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:37.959 of this. So let's very much like your book, Carla, 84 00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:42.839 Let's start with just the very very profound beginning where 85 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:46.480 you ask the question about the future of Carla, And 86 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:49.879 so we won't go into if anybody hasn't heard this tale, 87 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:52.399 Well that's despite the point. We're going to have to 88 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:55.240 just dive right into this as people have to be 89 00:04:55.319 --> 00:04:59.199 fairly familiar with this case. You talk about the very 90 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:01.439 beginning of your book of the future of Carla. Why 91 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:05.720 did you think it absurd or interesting or incredible that 92 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:09.079 Carla would have a future as you've summarized in your book. 93 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:11.319 Tell us why that was so amazing to you. 94 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:14.759 Well, the first thing that people need to understand is 95 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:19.199 the reason this case isn't better known is frankly because 96 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:23.399 of its timing. The trial where all of the salient 97 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:26.639 information came out was held in the summer of nineteen 98 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:29.879 ninety five at the same time that the OJ Simpson 99 00:05:29.959 --> 00:05:33.879 trial was occurring, right so that, as most people know, 100 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:38.839 over one hundred and fifty million people watched the OJ 101 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:43.199 Simpson trial daily around the world, and it was televised, 102 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:45.800 and of course the Bernardo trial that occurred exactly at 103 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:50.120 the same time was not televised. In fact, the attendance 104 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:52.839 even by the media and the public was restricted to 105 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:56.519 a very small number of people. So there's no way 106 00:05:56.600 --> 00:06:02.199 of fully understanding why Carla is signed unless someone is 107 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:05.480 absolutely familiar with the lead up in the crimes and 108 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:09.399 how it evolved. But as the introduction to Carla the 109 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:14.199 book discusses, I mean, here is a woman that murdered 110 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:20.519 her sister, participated and arguably murdered two teenage girls at 111 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:23.839 the behest of her husband and in participation with her husband, 112 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:29.959 and ultimately only served twelve years in prison for those crimes. 113 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:33.519 And she was very young in their early twenties when 114 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:36.920 she committed the crimes, and she was thirty five and 115 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:40.560 very young when she was released, free and clear in 116 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:43.560 two thousand and five. So on its face, it's a 117 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:49.120 remarkable story. There's actually nothing quite like it in criminal history. So, 118 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:52.759 you know, women normally do not get involved in crimes 119 00:06:52.759 --> 00:06:56.040 of this magnitude, let alone become the managing partner, and 120 00:06:56.360 --> 00:07:00.680 if they do, they very very rarely or get out 121 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:05.199 of prison and want to live a normal life at 122 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:06.279 the age of thirty five. 123 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:10.360 Absolutely, let's talk about one thing just for ourn American 124 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:13.639 audience and international audience, which is very, very significant. And 125 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:17.279 I have spoken probably very many times about the differences, 126 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:20.199 you know, the major differences in Canadian law American law. 127 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:22.879 Tell us just a little bit more about this publication 128 00:07:23.079 --> 00:07:27.600 ban and how unusual or untypical this publication ban, and 129 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:32.000 what exactly did they do to try to ensure that 130 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:34.199 this ban was enforced. 131 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:39.199 Publication bans aren't unusual in Canada or in Britain for 132 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:43.279 that matter, where a great majority of Canadian law and 133 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:48.399 procedure is derived. They typically will ban preliminary trials. They 134 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:53.000 will also ban issues of publication matters that they don't 135 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:57.319 think the public should see or be inundated with. So 136 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:01.920 Carlo has tried separately from her husband. She was dealt 137 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:05.600 with in nineteen ninety three in a one day trial 138 00:08:06.040 --> 00:08:10.480 where all the fix was in. So the authorities and 139 00:08:10.839 --> 00:08:14.600 her lawyers and the Ministry of the Attorney General, the 140 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:18.800 Prosecution office had made the decision that for her part 141 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:23.439 in these very strange and bizarre crimes, that she would 142 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:26.720 receive twelve years and that would be the extent. And 143 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:29.519 in Canada, of course, twelve years doesn't mean twelve years. 144 00:08:29.560 --> 00:08:33.120 It means that potentially she could have been released at 145 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:35.799 one third of her sentence, so it could have been 146 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:40.639 a very very short amount of time, and the authorities 147 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:45.200 didn't want the details of any of the any of 148 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:48.919 the details of the crimes known publicly. They didn't want 149 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:54.720 any preamble established at priory, and their argument was because 150 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:58.000 they didn't want to prejudice his trial. Of course, there 151 00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:02.559 was no reason to try her set other than political reasons, 152 00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:07.159 so their argument was that if we released information or 153 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:11.000 allowed information to be published to do with her crimes 154 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:13.720 in her trial, they would prejudice his right to a 155 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:18.679 free trial. This is an amazing I don't even have 156 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:22.480 words to describe how disingenuous this is on the part 157 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:26.519 of the government and the legal system. But they had 158 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:30.279 made decisions to do with her for absolutely self serving 159 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:34.840 reasons and enforced them. It's very simple. They simply banned 160 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:39.159 all foreign media from the courthouse while she was being 161 00:09:39.639 --> 00:09:42.360 tried for the one day where information would have been 162 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:45.919 released obviously onto the record, and they put in a 163 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:50.799 publication ban that severely restricted even the Canadian media who 164 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:55.399 they had to allow to sit and observe, restricted them 165 00:09:55.639 --> 00:10:00.960 to very very limited disclosure in a public form. So, really, 166 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:05.039 in nineteen ninety three when she was tried, there was 167 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:10.799 only supposition, nothing concrete, nothing determined in what was reported. 168 00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:14.320 There's lots of rumors. The Internet was, frankly compared to 169 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:16.879 what it is today and what it was then in 170 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:20.720 a very nascient early period, so there's lots of rumors 171 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:24.879 and whatnot, but nothing substantive. Nobody really knew anything at 172 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:28.440 that point, and the few American media that were paying attention, 173 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:31.480 like the Washington Post or the Buffalo News, because this 174 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:36.039 happened twelve miles from the Niagara border the Buffalo and 175 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:39.679 Niagara Falls, New York, were outraged, but there was nothing 176 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:41.840 they could do because they weren't allowing the court room. 177 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:45.279 Now, let's go back because we really have to explain 178 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:49.159 the incredible circumstances that led Carla to be able to 179 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:52.039 get this deal before we get into how all the 180 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:55.879 characters are involved in facilitating this and enabling this. But 181 00:10:55.919 --> 00:10:59.360 it really comes down to Carla and her character and 182 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:03.879 realizing thing. So let's go back to the circumstances whereas 183 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:08.000 Carla meets George Walker or contacts George Worker, pardon me 184 00:11:08.440 --> 00:11:11.320 tell us about the circumstances leading up to seems like 185 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:15.200 Carla realizes what's going on and, being very intelligent, make 186 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:17.519 some moves of her own, so tell us those circumstances. 187 00:11:17.799 --> 00:11:21.559 That's hard to discuss because, in fact, over the years 188 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:24.240 that I corresponded with her and knew her while she 189 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:26.759 was in her last years in prison, she and I 190 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:29.840 both agreed that she had virtually nothing to do with 191 00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:33.840 the deals that were made the Attorney General, the head prosecutor, 192 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:39.320 and her lawyer made agreements that the best course of 193 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:43.679 action to take in her case was to portray her 194 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:47.759 as a battered woman, a battered spouse suffering from post 195 00:11:47.799 --> 00:11:51.759 traumatic stress disorder, and that this would be the defense 196 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:55.559 that they would use to explain the deal that they 197 00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:58.960 ultimately made with her. And the fact of the matter 198 00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:02.799 is the case so complicated and so arcane that's very 199 00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:07.000 hard to deal with it in straightforward terms. The fact is, 200 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:11.480 this idea of backing a plea with this kind of 201 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:16.600 psychiatry came from the Attorney General's office, not from Carla's 202 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:21.200 lawyer or from Carla herself, so that all the material 203 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:24.720 that backed this up, all of the legal experts that 204 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:29.320 they called, were hired at the Crowns at the sorry 205 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:31.799 of the Crown. It's a Canadian term or a British 206 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:37.799 term for prosecutor chief prosecutor, prosecuting attorney all came out 207 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:43.639 of the prosecutor's office. So their position was conveyed to 208 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:47.840 Carla's lawyer, and of course he adopted it because it 209 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:51.120 was irresistible. I mean, here is a woman who was 210 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:56.840 deeply involved in very extreme crimes against teenage women, including 211 00:12:56.840 --> 00:13:00.879 her own sister, and they were going to get pass 212 00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:06.879 based on ideas of her being a victim like her sister, 213 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:11.159 like the two murdered victims of her husband. So who 214 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:16.440 wouldn't take this opportunity and play it? I mean, I'm 215 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:19.080 not exaggerating. The trouble is that the two books I've 216 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:21.279 written on the case, one of six hundred and forty 217 00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:24.759 pages long, the other is what three or four hundred pages, 218 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:29.960 there's certainly four hundreds, I'm odd, impossibly detailed and the 219 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:33.399 things that no one ever wanted known. And the other 220 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:36.559 thing is this is a very unusual couple. In fact, 221 00:13:36.679 --> 00:13:41.320 I don't think there's any ever been a couple like 222 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:45.960 these two to be charged with a crime. They were very, 223 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:50.279 very good looking kids in their twenties. She's younger than 224 00:13:50.360 --> 00:13:53.440 him by five or six years, but no less, you know, 225 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:56.399 he's twenty four, she's eighteen when they mate. They are 226 00:13:56.600 --> 00:14:01.159 middle class or even upper middle class, depends on your definition, 227 00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:05.159 and that in and of itself makes them unusual. I mean, 228 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:10.639 his father was a six figure earning registered accountant. They 229 00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:13.919 lived in a very middle class neighborhood and an upscale 230 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:19.440 middle class neighborhood. Her parents weren't quite as accomplished, but 231 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:23.799 they had middle class aspirations. They're both educated, and to 232 00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:27.039 the point where he had a degree in economics from 233 00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:30.240 a university and had held a job for three years. 234 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:35.840 So it's a very unusual couple. Attractive, middle class, aspiring 235 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:39.360 a better life than their parents, and all this sort 236 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:43.399 of stuff that it works around that kind of lifestyle. 237 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:48.120 And yet the two of them went deeply into an 238 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:53.679 incredibly dark, murderous relationship that ended up with not only 239 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:57.519 your sister being murdered and a plethora of sexual assault, 240 00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:02.960 but also two strangers who were school girls, teenage schoolgirls. Now, 241 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:06.000 the problem that people have had with this case and 242 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:10.759 understanding it is that it is so dense and so 243 00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:17.159 inexplicable that it's almost beyond understanding. Certainly, their behavior is 244 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:21.720 beyond understanding, but in the wake of their behavior, the 245 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:25.799 way in which the judicial authorities and policing dealt with 246 00:15:25.879 --> 00:15:28.440 it is beyond bizarre. 247 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:32.240 Well, it really does usher in a new I don't 248 00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:34.919 know if it's era, but some of the Canadian crimes 249 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:38.360 after this seem to be like and I have always 250 00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:40.720 contended that serial killers seem to influence each other and 251 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:43.360 like the role models. And so this is almost an 252 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:46.240 ushering and a new era. But also from the fine 253 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:49.480 journalism that you've done, and from the narcissistic tendencies of 254 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:54.159 these people videotaping and recording and diaries and the situation 255 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:57.519 where Karla is actually testifying and has to by law 256 00:15:57.639 --> 00:16:01.320 technically tell the truth and disclose, and with the videotapes 257 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:05.240 and with your journalism, this stuff is incredible. How slow 258 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:07.879 you have to read this stuff because it's it just 259 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.320 sinks in and affects you when you're reading the details 260 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.279 of what this couple did. What I wanted to say 261 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:14.679 was that. 262 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:17.200 Either way, I tute that as a compliment. 263 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:21.279 Absolutely absolutely, this is the kind of there's no way 264 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:24.879 you can do this kind of book, And you've written 265 00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:29.360 two books about the same trial, and but it is 266 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:32.919 that comprehensive, and also it's that complicated because the case 267 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:33.679 still goes on. 268 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:37.360 I've always contended that there are very few crimes that 269 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:41.879 deserve a book written about them, and that warrant deserve 270 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:45.759 is the wrong word, warrant the attention. And that's because 271 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:50.200 if he were the only offender. First of all, he 272 00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:54.600 would never have expanded his portfolio to the extent that 273 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:59.120 it became without Carla. He wasn't. He was really what 274 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:03.799 I've always thought is a serial rapists are unusual in 275 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:07.440 the criminal landscape, But he was a really feckless example 276 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:12.319 of a serial rapist because he sort of grew into 277 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:16.400 it after he met her. He was toying with things, 278 00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:19.880 but he never actually raped anyone until after he had 279 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:24.000 met her, and there was something about their chemistry that 280 00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:30.160 empowered him to go on rampage of serial raping and 281 00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:34.559 all the time wooing her and having a relationship with her. 282 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:37.559 But the instructive thing in that is that he never 283 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:42.000 killed any of his victims until after he moved in 284 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:45.880 with her and started living with her. His first murder 285 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:51.480 victim was her sister, whom she provided the drugs and 286 00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:55.759 the circumstances and the ambiance to set up the murder. 287 00:17:56.359 --> 00:17:59.160 So you say to yourself, what is it that it is, 288 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:03.519 Keskus said set Grand Richard, it's nuts and frankly, in 289 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:07.039 the end, that's all. No matter how you look at 290 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:12.279 this situation, it's absolutely unique and bizarre and at least 291 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:18.160 worthy of serious analysis because the crimes are inexplicable, because many, 292 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:21.720 many crimes are inexplicable. I mean, there's a great book 293 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:29.039 about Hitler called Explaining Hitler by Ron Rosenbaum, a great 294 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:32.640 New York writer. He spent ten years looking at the 295 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:36.920 academic industry that has grown around trying to find or 296 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:42.720 evolve explanations for Hitler. Why Hitler? How did Hitler happen? 297 00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:47.200 How do we explain that capacity for evil? And ultimately, 298 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:52.119 Rosenbaum concluded that there is no viable explanation, even in 299 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:54.640 spite of the fact that some of the greatest minds 300 00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:58.640 in history have spent their lives trying to figure out 301 00:18:58.839 --> 00:19:03.279 why Hitler. So these two present not anyone near that 302 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:08.200 kind of impetus or query, but they present an equally 303 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:14.319 complex and inexplicable situation. So the real issue then becomes, 304 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:17.640 what the hell were the authorities thinking? What did they do? 305 00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:21.759 Why did they let her off virtually scot free? Twelve 306 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:25.599 years in prison? Is scot free, but it it is 307 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:29.279 in no way commiserate with the dimensions of her crime. 308 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:32.799 So how do they let her off and put it 309 00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:36.839 on him? Those are the questions that preoccupy me. I 310 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:41.400 can't I can't explain evil of this dimension anymore than 311 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:46.000 people have succeeded in explaining evil, the evil of Hitler 312 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.240 in the Holocaust. So what can I tell you? 313 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:51.720 Yeah, she definitely completed him, you know. 314 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:54.839 Yeah, well, no, there was a It's a very strange thing. 315 00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:58.440 When people see pictures of them and get some kind 316 00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:03.359 of sense of of what actually went on, they're usually gobsmack. 317 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:07.119 They can't. You know. The books keep selling year after year. 318 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:11.640 Most books have a season or two seasons of currency, 319 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:15.400 and then they are remaindered invisible darkness. 320 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:15.960 You know. 321 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:19.839 It's called the Bizarre. The subtitle is Bizarre or the 322 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:24.119 Strange Story of Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamalka are the 323 00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:27.640 strange case rather and Carla a pact with the devil. 324 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:31.920 They sell year after year about the same rate as 325 00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:35.440 they have done from the date of their publication, and 326 00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:39.599 it simply seems to indicate that new generations are discovering 327 00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:44.880 the story and becoming fascinated by it because it's virtually inexplicable. 328 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:50.680 It's unlike anything else. It's absolutely unique, which is why 329 00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:54.960 it justified virtually ten years of my life in two books. 330 00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:59.119 Will it ever be recognized as being a justifiable preoccupation? 331 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:02.319 I have no idea, since I was arrested and prosecuted 332 00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:06.720 over a ten year period for alleged breaches of publication 333 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:11.839 bands and court orders, and that exercise took whatever earnings 334 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:14.880 I ever had from these books and much more beside, 335 00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:18.720 Will it ever justify that? I have no idea? You 336 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:19.960 know that's up to buster. 337 00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:23.559 Well, you know what's incredible is that this is the 338 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:26.799 inexplicable part is of course the evil, this evil that 339 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:30.000 no one can comprehend. I don't care where you came from. 340 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:32.000 If you read this, there's just no way you can 341 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:36.759 even barely fathom it. But the judicial system in Canada's 342 00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:39.240 reaction to this, and that's what you outline, and that's 343 00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:42.720 what you were courageous to do. You have interviews with prosecutors, 344 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:45.480 attorney generals, and you're not afraid to burn the bridge. 345 00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:48.799 You're not afraid to ask the hard questions, and hard 346 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:52.839 questions needed to be asked this case is outrageous to anybody, 347 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:57.440 I know Americans from this audience expressed the outrage and 348 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:00.960 also just the confusion. So your book really he sets 349 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:03.279 the record straight on how this could happen, the differences 350 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:05.920 in the law, and then just how this prosecution the 351 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:09.160 egos involved. So let's get to that, and let's put first, 352 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:11.839 if you don't mind, and again I don't want to 353 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:14.960 take you back, you know, bad memory, Lane, but tell 354 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:19.759 us how you became in the crosshairs of prosecution and 355 00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:23.599 what you did exactly to enrage these people before we 356 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:27.000 get into the deal itself. And what I would refer 357 00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:29.799 to earlier was not that Carla had anything to do 358 00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:34.000 with the deal, but being an intelligent, psychopathic personality that 359 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:37.000 she was, she knew right away with the lawyer to 360 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:40.079 you know, to read books, to have the terminology down, 361 00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:42.680 to sort of understand the defense that she wanted to 362 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:45.920 the battered woman syndrome that she wanted to express. She 363 00:22:46.039 --> 00:22:48.720 sort of fits the bill. And also, of course we're 364 00:22:48.759 --> 00:22:52.119 going to get to this what everybody's participation, and it's 365 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:55.079 because to me it's outrageous, of course it's outrageous. Paul 366 00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:58.240 Bernardo and Carla Malka, but I think it's outrageous. The police, 367 00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:02.599 the lawyers, the psychiatrist. So before we get into that, 368 00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:06.079 tell us how you became in the crossairs of prosecution 369 00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:08.079 during this case. Sell us how that happened. 370 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:11.240 Well, it wasn't during, it was actually after the fact. 371 00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:16.799 I mean, what effectively a good investigative journalist does is 372 00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:20.920 get the backstory. Because, as I think most people are 373 00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:25.160 sympathetic to, nothing in the modern media is right or 374 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:30.240 accurate or true. Nothing. The media, as Chomsky has discussed 375 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:34.720 at length and with detail, which very few people have read, 376 00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:39.640 is a handmaiden of the government and of the police 377 00:23:39.880 --> 00:23:44.119 and of the power structure. The media does not function 378 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:49.000 as watchers on the watch tower. So an investigative journalist, 379 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:52.240 if he has the resources and has the will and whatnot, 380 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:55.519 is working in a very fertile field because there are 381 00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:58.160 all sorts of people within the system who want to 382 00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:01.319 talk about what they are not supposed to talk about. 383 00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:06.319 So in Canada, the idea of a book writer, of 384 00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:11.160 a person who only has contracts with a publishing company 385 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:16.279 and is not in league with any media doesn't work 386 00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:19.799 for a newspaper, doesn't work for a television broadcasting firm. 387 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:24.160 It's almost even in nineteen ninety four, ninety three, ninety 388 00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:28.920 two was a foreign concept that some in Canada, not 389 00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:32.359 in the United States, but in Canada. So no one 390 00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:36.920 understood what my real purpose was or what my role was. 391 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:41.519 But more importantly, the intelligent people that work in the 392 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:46.599 toil in this minefield called judicial process, like the expert witnesses, 393 00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:51.640 you know, the psychiatrists, the psychologists, the defense lawyers, even 394 00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:56.599 some senior police and prosecutors, even judges. Some of them 395 00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:04.440 understand the duplicity, the ambiguity, the frailty of the process, 396 00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:09.880 the so called sacred process of adjudicating responsibility. They understand 397 00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:14.519 it's frail and fraught with politics and whatnot. So, particularly 398 00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:18.000 at that place and time, they saw in me someone 399 00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:22.880 who had no vested interest in disclosing anything I learned 400 00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:26.559 early on to the public. In other words, I would 401 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:31.559