Speaker 1: Hey guys, Deb and I just wanted to take a
Speaker 1: moment to thank you for listening to the show and
Speaker 1: ask you to share it with a friend or leave
Speaker 1: a comment on Spotify or Apple. It really does help us.
Speaker 1: You can also show your love and support by signing
Speaker 1: up for our newsletters or following us on social media.
Speaker 1: Our websites Samantha Fay dot com and Debbowen dot com
Speaker 1: you can find our e courses, meditations, and crystal bracelets.
Speaker 1: You can also pre order Deb's new book, Crafting the
Speaker 1: Wheel of the Year, and on my site you can
Speaker 1: order sign copies of my books as well. And I'm
Speaker 1: excited to announce that Deb is going to be on
Speaker 1: my other podcast, Enlightened Mpaths. So we're really happy to
Speaker 1: share a beautiful conversation we have with Denise and Deb
Speaker 1: and myself.
Speaker 2: Hope you check it out.
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Psychic Teachers. I'm your host, Samantha
Speaker 1: Fay and I'm Deb Bowen, and today we are delving
Speaker 1: into a chapter of Cold War history so bizarre, so
Speaker 1: audacious that it sounds less like a government strategy and
Speaker 1: more like a fever dream. We're gonna be talking about
Speaker 1: whispers of ancient powers, the pursuit of the impossible, and
Speaker 1: the unsettling intersection of clandestine intelligence with the occult. Imagine
Speaker 1: the world in the mid twentieth century. The cold world
Speaker 1: is at its chilling peak. Superpowers are locked in a
Speaker 1: desperate arms race, scrambling for every conceivable advantage, and in
Speaker 1: the shadows, an agency known for its cloak and dagger tactics,
Speaker 1: the CIA, reportedly turned its gaze not just to nuclear
Speaker 1: codes or satellite and intelligence, but to magic, to the unseen,
Speaker 1: to the very fabric of reality itself. Today, we're going
Speaker 1: to peel back the layers on something often hinted at,
Speaker 1: sensationalized and yet rarely fully understood, the alleged CIA operation.
Speaker 1: Often we'll explore how the Central Intelligence Agency, along with
Speaker 1: its notorious chemist Sidney Gottlieb, supposedly dealt into the realms
Speaker 1: of the occult, studied ancient magic, and according to some accounts,
Speaker 1: even sought out and hired practicing witches and occultists. Allegedly
Speaker 1: and will confront the darker rumors the alleged development of
Speaker 1: tools for silent assassinations, specifically appealed to induce a heart attack,
Speaker 1: and the disturbing reports of these studies and others being
Speaker 1: conducted on unwitting prisoners, And the most chilling question of
Speaker 1: all was Operation Offen, genuinely looking for proof of magic
Speaker 1: and demons. This isn't just about secret labs and shadowy figures.
Speaker 1: It's about the outer limits of human belief, the desperation
Speaker 1: of a nation, and what happens when science, espionage and
Speaker 1: the supernatural collide.
Speaker 2: Yikes, Okay, here we go. To understand the genesis of
Speaker 2: anything as seemingly outlandish as this quote, Operation often, we
Speaker 2: must first immerse ourselves in the paranoid crucible of the
Speaker 2: Cold War. The nineteen fifties, sixties, and seventies were an
Speaker 2: era defined by fear, scientific competition, and a no bolds
Speaker 2: barred approach to national security. The United States and the
Speaker 2: Soviet Union were locked in a technological arms race, nuclear weapons,
Speaker 2: space exploration, advanced weapon beneath the surface. Another more subtle
Speaker 2: race was unfolding, a race for control over the human mind,
Speaker 2: over consciousness itself. This was the era of Project mk Ultra,
Speaker 2: a now infamous and extensively documented CIA program. Its official
Speaker 2: mandate was mind control, exploring everything from hypnosis, sensory deprivation,
Speaker 2: and truth serums, to most notoriously, the use of LSD
Speaker 2: and other psychoactive drugs to manipulate human behavior, illicit confessions,
Speaker 2: or even create Manchurian candidates. Didney got Leave, a brilliant
Speaker 2: but ethically controversial chemist, was at the very heart of
Speaker 2: mk Ultra. He was the architect of its most audacious
Speaker 2: and often horrifying experiments, earning him the nickname the Black Sorcerer.
Speaker 1: But while mk Ultra focused largely on pharmacology and psychology,
Speaker 1: whispers persisted, and indeed, some declassified documents later confirm that
Speaker 1: the CIA's interest extended beyond the purely chemical. They were deeply,
Speaker 1: almost obsessively curious about anything that might give them an
Speaker 1: edge extrasensory perception known as esp telekinesis remote viewing psychic abilities.
Speaker 1: But why because reports suggested that the Soviets were also
Speaker 1: investing heavily in psychic warfare, training clairvoyants and telepaths, hoping
Speaker 1: to gain an insurmountable advantage in intelligence gathering or even
Speaker 1: direct influence. Imagine the CIA's mindset if the enemy could
Speaker 1: read minds, influence leaders from Afar, or even incapacitate soldiers
Speaker 1: with just mere thought alone, then the US had to
Speaker 1: be able to do it too, or at the very
Speaker 1: least understand it well enough to defund against it. This
Speaker 1: desperate desire for unconventional advantage opened the door to truly
Speaker 1: extraordinary avenues of research. It was within this climate of
Speaker 1: scientific desperation and existential fear that the alleged Operation often
Speaker 1: is said to have emerged.
Speaker 2: If Operation Often exists as more than just a rumor
Speaker 2: or an extreme offshoot of MK Ultra, its central figure
Speaker 2: is undoubtedly Sidney Gottlieb. Gottlieb was not a mystic, but
Speaker 2: a highly intelligent, somewhat eccentric biochemist. His work often involved poisons, hallucinogens,
Speaker 2: and a deep interest in the vulnerable state of the
Speaker 2: human mind. He truly believed in pushing the boundaries of
Speaker 2: what was known, even if those boundaries included crossing ethical lines. Gottlieb,
Speaker 2: by all accounts, was obsessed with finding non traditional methods
Speaker 2: of influence and control. He authorized experiments where unwitting subjects
Speaker 2: were dosed with LSD, where prostitutes were paid to lure
Speaker 2: men to CIA safe houses for drug experiments, and where
Speaker 2: sensory deprivation chambers pushed individuals to the brink of sanity.
Speaker 2: His vision for MLK Ultra was broad, encompassing anything that
Speaker 2: could disrupt, influence, or control the mind. One of the
Speaker 2: most chilling allegations associated with Gottlieb and the projects of
Speaker 2: this era, which could very well fall under the umbrella
Speaker 2: of something like MK often existed, was the development of
Speaker 2: a so called heart attack bill. This was supposedly a
Speaker 2: highly potent toxin designed to induce a fatal heart attack
Speaker 2: and a target leaving no trace in an autopsy that
Speaker 2: would suggest foul play. The idea was to create natural
Speaker 2: causes a death that was in fact carefully an orchestrated assassination.
Speaker 2: So it's this broad scope, combined with his known willingness
Speaker 2: to explore extreme possibilities, that make the claims about operation
Speaker 2: often plausible. Within the context of his work, Gottlieb wasn't
Speaker 2: afraid to look into the abyss if he thought that
Speaker 2: there was an advantage to be gained, if traditional science
Speaker 2: wasn't providing answers fast enough, or if the Soviets were
Speaker 2: rumored to be exploring new frontiers. Gottlieb was the man
Speaker 2: to greenlight the most unorthodox inquiries.
Speaker 1: Now Here's where the specific claims about Operation often begin
Speaker 1: to diverge from well documented history into more speculative territory.
Speaker 1: So though rooted in some declassified fragments and in the
Speaker 1: broader context of mk ULTRA. So we know the weird
Speaker 1: stuff that Sydney did with l S D and using
Speaker 1: prostitutes to lure men in and you know, have them
Speaker 1: filmed high on drugs and doing these different things, all
Speaker 1: of that is super well documented in mk Ultra. I mean,
Speaker 1: for crying out loud, Whitey Bulger was part of that,
Speaker 1: unknowingly when he was in prison. Even they even experimented
Speaker 1: on Harvard students like Ted Kaczynski. So the mk ultra
Speaker 1: stuff is very well documented. All the stuff we're talking
Speaker 1: about today with Operation often there's a couple of documents
Speaker 1: that have been released, but a lot of stuff in
Speaker 1: there is really really redacted. So just keep in mind
Speaker 1: that the reason why we keep saying allegedly with Operation
Speaker 1: often is because it is not as well documented as
Speaker 1: mk Ultra. So while official records explicitly detailing Operation often
Speaker 1: as a distinct, massive project focused solely on magic and demons,
Speaker 1: are very scarce or unconfirmed, the spirit of such an
Speaker 1: operation aligns perfectly with Gottlieb's modus operande. The narrative suggests
Speaker 1: that Gottlieb, in his relentless pursuit of mind control and
Speaker 1: unconventional weaponry, became interested in historical accounts of magic, ritual
Speaker 1: and occult practices. He theorized, or was at least open
Speaker 1: to the idea that ancient rituals and specific magical practices
Speaker 1: might contain keys to altering consciousness, influencing events, or even
Speaker 1: directly harming enemies in ways modern science hadn't yet grasped.
Speaker 1: This wasn't necessarily about believing in liberal spells, but about
Speaker 1: investigating the potential psychological or energetic effects attributed to them,
Speaker 1: or discovering an underlying scientific principle hidden within these ancient traditions.
Speaker 2: So what did this study of magic entail under Gottlieb's
Speaker 2: alleged direction in operation. Often, it wouldn't have been your
Speaker 2: typical universe city recent project think moral on the lines
Speaker 2: of deconstructing antrech grimoires, analyzing folkloric practices, and examining historical
Speaker 2: accounts of witchcraft, shamanism, and esoteric rituals, the idea was
Speaker 2: likely twofold. One would be disruption in warfare. Could specific
Speaker 2: rituals for psychological manipulations derived from occult practices be used
Speaker 2: to sow discord, induce fear, or even cause psychological breaks
Speaker 2: in enemy populations or leaders? Could a curse be used
Speaker 2: as a psychological weapon? And then, of course he wanted
Speaker 2: to look at unconventional influence and power. Could there be genuine,
Speaker 2: untapped human potential or energetic principles embedded within magical traditions that,
Speaker 2: if harnessed, could provide intelligence advantages, influence outcomes, or even
Speaker 2: create a form of psychic weaponry. This wasn't about believing
Speaker 2: in wands and potions in a literal sense. It was
Speaker 2: about asking if someone believed they were cursed, what psychological
Speaker 2: effects would that have. Could certain symbols, sounds, or rituals
Speaker 2: induce altered states of consciousness more effectively than drugs? Could
Speaker 2: the collective belief in a ritual create a tangible energetic field.
Speaker 1: Imagine the CIA pouring over translated text of the Key
Speaker 1: of Solomon not as a mystical guide, but as a
Speaker 1: potential manual for psychological operations. They might analyze the use
Speaker 1: of specific incantations for their phonetic properties. The burning of
Speaker 1: certain herbs for their psychoactive smoke, or the geometric patterns
Speaker 1: and sigils for their potential subliminal effects on the human mind.
Speaker 1: It would be a deconstructionist approach to magic, trying to
Speaker 1: extract any practical, manipulable elements, even if divorced from their
Speaker 1: original spiritual context. They'd be looking for the how and
Speaker 1: the what, not necessarily the why in a spiritual sense.
Speaker 1: So this brings us to a more controversial and highly
Speaker 1: debated aspect of Operation Often that we're going to get into,
Speaker 1: the alleged hiring of practicing witches and occultist whoa.
Speaker 2: This is perhaps the most sensational claim surrounding Operation Often,
Speaker 2: and one that often draws skepticism. Did the CIA truly
Speaker 2: higher practicing witches, astrologers and occultists? While direct, widespread, declassified
Speaker 2: evidence explicitly states we hired coven remains elusive under the
Speaker 2: operation named often, That historical context makes this less fantastical
Speaker 2: than it first appears. Remember the CIA's documented interest in
Speaker 2: parapsychology for Project Stargate, which focused on remote viewing, and
Speaker 2: on other projects they did one equivocally work with individuals
Speaker 2: who had psychic abilities, including famous remote viewers like Ingo
Speaker 2: Swan and Pat Price. They consulted psychics, astrologers, and even
Speaker 2: dowsers in attempts to find submarines, locate hostages, or gain intelligence.
Speaker 2: Given this, the leap to consulting with, or even quote
Speaker 2: hiring individuals practicing more traditional forms of magic or occultism
Speaker 2: isn't as far fetched as it seems. It wasn't about
Speaker 2: the CIA embracing witchcraft as a spiritual path. It was
Speaker 2: about their pragmatic results oriented an ethically flexible approach to
Speaker 2: gathering any perceived advantage.
Speaker 1: Imagine the CIA encountering reports of a practitioner, say in
Speaker 1: San Francisco, who cleaned influence events or gain information through
Speaker 1: a ritual. Gottlieb's team might have approached them not with
Speaker 1: an offer to j in the CIA, but to study
Speaker 1: their methods to see if there was any verifiable effect,
Speaker 1: or to understand the psychological impact on the partitioner and
Speaker 1: their targets. This could involve observing rituals, analyzing their effectiveness,
Speaker 1: or even attempting to replicate parts of their practice under
Speaker 1: controlled or not so controlled conditions. One persistent rumor sometimes
Speaker 1: linked to this era tells of a high ranking intelligence
Speaker 1: official attending a specific occult gathering, not as a participant,
Speaker 1: but as an observer. Their goal was to assess the
Speaker 1: psychological cohesion of the group, the potential for crowd manipulation,
Speaker 1: and to see if the belief systems of these people
Speaker 1: might be susceptible to certain influences. So, while not hiring
Speaker 1: a witch, it certainly falls into the realm of studying
Speaker 1: their practices for intelligence purposes.
Speaker 2: The truth is likely nuanced. The CIA probably didn't put
Speaker 2: out job ads for chief enchantment, but they al most
Speaker 2: certainly consulted, observed, and experimented with individuals who claimed abilities
Speaker 2: or utilized practices that aligned with the definition of occult.
Speaker 2: All in the desperate pursuit of an edge against Cold
Speaker 2: War adversaries, the distinction between a psychic and an occultist
Speaker 2: might have been less relevant to Gottlab than the potential
Speaker 2: for a usable outcome.
Speaker 1: Now, for the chilling question was operation often genuinely looking
Speaker 1: for proof of magic and demons. This is where the
Speaker 1: narrative descends deepest into speculative and sensational territory, and where
Speaker 1: we need to apply a critical lens. On the one hand,
Speaker 1: The explicit goal of proving magic redeemons doesn't align with
Speaker 1: the pragmatic, if unethical, scientific approach of the CIA operating
Speaker 1: at this time. Their aim was operational effectiveness, not theological validation.
Speaker 1: They wanted to know if a phenomenon worked and if
Speaker 1: it could be weaponized or exploited. However, this doesn't mean
Speaker 1: the question of magic or demons was an explored within
Speaker 1: their parameters. Consider these possibilities magic, for example, as mechanism.
Speaker 1: Instead of proving magic as a spiritual force, they might
Speaker 1: have been looking for the mechanism behind purported magical effects.
Speaker 1: If a cur seemed to cause illness, was it a
Speaker 1: psychological suggestion, a poison, or an unknown energetic transmission. If
Speaker 1: a ritual produced altered states, how did it do so?
Speaker 1: They were seeking a scientific explanation for what was traditionally
Speaker 1: called magic, and possibly looking at demons as psychological weapons.
Speaker 1: The concept of demons might have been explored not as
Speaker 1: literal entities, but as archetypes, psychological constructs, or even as
Speaker 1: a means to induce severe psychological distress. Could a manipulated
Speaker 1: environ or a carefully constructed haunting induce madness or compliance?
Speaker 1: Could the belief in a demonic presence break a person's will.
Speaker 1: Gottlieb was certainly interested in breaking people's wills, and then,
Speaker 1: of course you have the power of belief. The CIA
Speaker 1: at this time was keenly aware of the power of
Speaker 1: belief if a population deeply believed in a specific magical
Speaker 1: practice or a demonic curse, Understanding that belief could be
Speaker 1: crucial for propaganda, psychological warfare, or even creating demoralizing effects.
Speaker 2: Picture this, The CIA here is a report of a
Speaker 2: remote village in an enemy state where a powerful shaman
Speaker 2: is causing widespread psychological distress through alleged curses. Instead of
Speaker 2: dismissing it, Gotlief's interests might be picked not because he
Speaker 2: believes in the shaman's literal magic, but because he wants
Speaker 2: to understand the psychological vulneulnerability of the population to such beliefs,
Speaker 2: and whether that this vulnerability could be replicated or exploited
Speaker 2: on a larger scale. Could the demon simply be a
Speaker 2: culturally ingrained fear that could be triggered. So while the
Speaker 2: CIA wasn't likely looking to confirm the existence of horn devils,
Speaker 2: they were almost certainly probing the effects attributed to magic
Speaker 2: and the psychological impact of believing in demonic forces. Their
Speaker 2: goal was control and understanding, not necessarily theological truth. The
Speaker 2: proof they sought would be functional and exploitable result.
Speaker 1: Now, this next bit of our research is perhaps the
Speaker 1: most disturbing and ethically indefensible aspect of projects like MK.
Speaker 1: Often the use of vulnerable populations, including prisoners, for human experimentation.
Speaker 1: While the direct link to magic and demon studies under
Speaker 1: a name MK often is speculative, the CIA's historical record
Speaker 1: clearly shows that involuntary experimentation was a cornerstone of MK ultra. Prisoners,
Speaker 1: along with psychiatric patients, drug addicts, and other marginalized individuals,
Speaker 1: were seen as ideal subjects because they were readily available,
Speaker 1: often lacked legal recourse, and their complaints were easily dismissed.
Speaker 1: The methods used in MK ultra on these unwitting subjects
Speaker 1: were horrifying. Subjects were given LSD for days or weeks
Speaker 1: on end, often without their knowledge or consent, to study
Speaker 1: its effects on behavior and induce psychosis. Individuals were placed
Speaker 1: in isolation chambers for extended periods, coupled with drug administration
Speaker 1: to induce extreme psychological states. This was all done in
Speaker 1: combination with drugs to disorient and break down the subject's mind.
Speaker 2: If Project MK often involved the study of occult rituals
Speaker 2: for psychological impact or the testing of agents like the
Speaker 2: Heart Attack Bill, it is highly plausible, even probable, that
Speaker 2: such studies would have been conducted on these same vulnerable populations,
Speaker 2: including prisoners in clandestine facilities. The ethical framework that allowed
Speaker 2: for MK altra's abuses would certainly permit experiments exploring the
Speaker 2: psychological effect of cursing someone or testing novel poisons designed
Speaker 2: to mimic natural causes. We know, for example, that institutions
Speaker 2: like the Kentucky State Reformatory were used for LSD experiments
Speaker 2: on prisoners. It's not a stretch to imagine that if
Speaker 2: God leaves interests extended to the psychological impact of fear
Speaker 2: induced by methods or the testing of untraceable poisonings, these
Speaker 2: vulnerable populations would have been targeted. The silence of these victims.
Speaker 2: Their lack of voice made them convenient subjects for the
Speaker 2: most dangerous and unethical inquiries. The allegation of using prisoners
Speaker 2: for any form of these dark experiments underscore the profound
Speaker 2: ethical breaches committed by the CIA during this period. The
Speaker 2: lack of consent, the disregard for human dignity, the potential
Speaker 2: for severe, lasting harm, or even death, remains a stain
Speaker 2: on the history of intelligence operations. The veil of secrecy
Speaker 2: ensured that the horrors endured by these individuals remained hidden
Speaker 2: for decades, if not forever.
Speaker 1: So, whether Project mk often existed as a distinct named
Speaker 1: program or as an integrated component of larger initiations, its
Speaker 1: alleged activities raise profound ethical questions, echoing the controversies of
Speaker 1: MK Ultra. When intelligence agencies delve into the manipulation of
Speaker 1: the mind or the exploitation of belief systems, the human
Speaker 1: cost can be immense. If individuals were subjected to experiments
Speaker 1: involving ritualistic elements, altered states, or the intentional induction of fear,
Speaker 1: the psychological damage could be devastating. Many MK Ultra victims
Speaker 1: suffered lifelong trauma, addiction, and mental health issues. The pursuit
Speaker 1: of magic would likely involve even more volatile psychological terrain.
Speaker 1: If an operation like often existed in its more sensationalized form,
Speaker 1: why is it not widely declassified like Project MK Ultra
Speaker 1: or Stargate. Well, there are several reasons why it would
Speaker 1: remain deeply buried or highly fragmented in the public records.
Speaker 1: Research into magic and demons would be far more politically
Speaker 1: and socially volatile than even LSD mind control. The public
Speaker 1: outcry if discovered would have been immense. Such research would
Speaker 1: be deemed absurd at best and deeply disturbing or morally
Speaker 1: reprehensible at worst, and the CIA is a master of
Speaker 1: plausible deniability. Even if such experiments occurred, they would likely
Speaker 1: be buried under broader project names like mk ultra itself,
Speaker 1: or fragmented across many reports, or conducted through cutouts and
Speaker 1: third parties to make direct connections difficult. Or let's say
Speaker 1: the research didn't yield any actionable results, no verifiable magic,
Speaker 1: no controllable demons, then there would be little incentive to
Speaker 1: declassify it. It would simply be deemed a failed experiment and
Speaker 1: allowed to fade into obscurity. And it's highly probable that
Speaker 1: any occult studies were simply subcomponents or highly specific experiments
Speaker 1: within larger existing projects like mk ultra, so instead of
Speaker 1: a distinct operation, often it might have been mk Ultra
Speaker 1: subproject Gamma seven. Such and such just to make the
Speaker 1: direct lineage extremely difficult to trace. And that makes sense,
Speaker 1: doesn't it. Well, it does, but you know, it made
Speaker 1: me think. There was an outcry when mk Ultra was declassified,
Speaker 1: and you have sub documentaries. I think one is called
Speaker 1: the Wormwood documentaries. There's some outcry about it, but not
Speaker 1: as much as you would think.
Speaker 2: That's probably because so much of it was redacted or unknown.
Speaker 1: True. So, the continued obscurity of operation, often in the
Speaker 1: public eye, doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen in some form.
Speaker 1: It just means the CIA was exceptionally good at keeping
Speaker 1: this particular secret, or the results were deemed too sensitive,
Speaker 1: to embarrassing or too inconclusive to see the light of day. So,
Speaker 1: whether Operation often existed at all or as a distinct
Speaker 1: named program, its alleged activities raise profound ethical questions, which
Speaker 1: echo the controversies of MK Ultra. When intelligence agencies delve
Speaker 1: into the manipulation of the mind or the exploitation of
Speaker 1: belief systems, the human cost is immense if individuals are
Speaker 1: subjected to experiments involving ritualistic elements or altered states, or
Speaker 1: the intentional induction of fear. Let me just think about
Speaker 1: the psychological damage.
Speaker 2: So I must ask were the quote practicing witches and
Speaker 2: occultists brought in willingly, fully informed, and ethically compensated, or
Speaker 2: were they manipulated, coerced or unwitting participants in experiments that
Speaker 2: might have pushed them to their limits or even driven
Speaker 2: them to psychological distress. What were the long term effects
Speaker 2: on the researchers themselves. Delving into such dark and unconventional territories,
Speaker 2: the line between objective observation and psychological entanglement can become
Speaker 2: dangerously blurred. For example, if they did an experiment where
Speaker 2: a subject is led to believe they are undergoing an
Speaker 2: ancient demonic possession ritual, even if it's all staged to
Speaker 2: study their psychological breakdown, can you imagine the horrific outcome,
Speaker 2: The terror, the paranoia, the potential for lasting psychosis. These
Speaker 2: are chilling ethic ramifications of such a pursuit. Regardless of
Speaker 2: whether a quote demon was literally present, the psychological harm
Speaker 2: would be very real. And if a heart attack, pill
Speaker 2: or other untraceable poisons were being tested, the ultimate ethical
Speaker 2: breach of taking a human life for intelligence purposes is
Speaker 2: laid bare with the added horror of trying to make
Speaker 2: it appear natural. The shroud of secretcy around projects like Operation,
Speaker 2: often whether by design or due to lack of definitive results,
Speaker 2: means that the full human cost will never be known.
Speaker 1: The lingering fascination with Operation often is undoubtedly fueled by
Speaker 1: the proven reality of Project mk Ultra. The revelations about
Speaker 1: mk Ultra, particularly in the nineteen seventies, completely shattered public
Speaker 1: trust in the CIA and exposed a dark chapter of
Speaker 1: government experimentation. It taught us that the impossible, the unethical,
Speaker 1: and the truly bizarre could and did happen within the
Speaker 1: confines of secret government programs. Once it was proven that
Speaker 1: the CIA experimented with LSD to create mind control and
Speaker 1: pursued avenues like developing a death seer or other untraceable
Speaker 1: means of incapacitation, the public became far more open to
Speaker 1: believing other, even wilder claims. This is where the seed
Speaker 1: of Operation often found fertile ground. If they're messing with
Speaker 1: drugs to control minds, why not ancient spells or rituals.
Speaker 1: The logical leap, while significant, became more palatable once the
Speaker 1: initial barrier of our government wouldn't do that was broken
Speaker 1: the declassified documents related to psychic research like Project Stargate
Speaker 1: further solidified this. While Stargate focused on remote viewing, it
Speaker 1: showed the CIA's willingness to invest millions in parapsychological phenomena.
Speaker 1: The line between psychic ability and magic can feel blurry.
Speaker 1: After the mk Ultra revelation's public consciousness shifted. Suddenly, any
Speaker 1: unusual behavior by the government, any strange rumors could be
Speaker 1: framed through the lens of covert experimentation. It led to books, movies,
Speaker 1: and TV shows that explored these themes, further cementing the
Speaker 1: idea that the CIA was involved in all manner of
Speaker 1: occult and mind bending endeavors. This cultural impact, while course
Speaker 1: was very sensational, also reflects a very real trauma for
Speaker 1: the breach of public trust.
Speaker 2: It's important to understand that the CIA's approach, particularly Gottliebs,
Speaker 2: was not so spiritual. It was empirical, although in the
Speaker 2: most unconventional sense of that word. They were likely looking
Speaker 2: for replicable effects, even if the method seemed eserteraric. So,
Speaker 2: for example, think about the idea that a curse causes
Speaker 2: psychosomatic illness to a CIA operative. This isn't magic, it's
Speaker 2: psychological warfare. Suppose a ritual that induces a heightened state
Speaker 2: of awareness for an intelligence gathering event is a new
Speaker 2: form of interrogation or data collection, and a quote demoned
Speaker 2: that is a manifestation of collective fear exposes a vulnerability
Speaker 2: that can be exploited. The language of magic and occultism
Speaker 2: simply provided a framework for exploring phenomenon that conventional science
Speaker 2: at the time couldn't readily explain or replicate. They weren't
Speaker 2: mad scientists in the very real sense of the word,
Speaker 2: pushing beyond acceptable aradigms, but always did their work with
Speaker 2: a strategic national security objective in mind.
Speaker 1: As science fiction writer Arthur C. Clark famously said, any
Speaker 1: sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Perhaps the reverse
Speaker 1: was true for Gottlieb. Any sufficiently powerful magic was just
Speaker 1: an undiscovered technology or psychological leverage waiting to be understood
Speaker 1: and controlled. This era represented a truly unique moment in
Speaker 1: history where the lines between hard science, psychological manipulation, espionage,
Speaker 1: and esoteric belief became profoundly blurred, and the desperate quest
Speaker 1: for dominance wasn't about faith but about power.
Speaker 2: So how do we deconstruct the claims of operation? Often
Speaker 2: this breakdown what's probable given declassified history, and what remains
Speaker 2: largely speculative. So here's what's problem. The CIA was entert
Speaker 2: in parapsychology and psychic phenomenon. This has been documented through
Speaker 2: Project Stargate and other programs. Sydney Gottlieb's involvement in highly
Speaker 2: unconventional and ethically dubious mind control experiments like mk Ultra
Speaker 2: is true. The CIA's willingness to explore any perceived advantage
Speaker 2: over the Soviets is a core tenet of cod war intelligence.
Speaker 2: Exploration into consciousness altering techniques by this agency has been confirmed.
Speaker 2: This opened the door to study drug induced states, hypnosis
Speaker 2: and potentially ritualistic states, and consultation with individuals claiming psychic
Speaker 2: or unusual abilities absolutely happened. The reality of Operation often
Speaker 2: likely lies in a liminal space between fact and fiction.
Speaker 2: It's less a distinct labeled project to prove demons, and
Speaker 2: more likely a fragmented series of highly experimental, deeply secretive,
Speaker 2: and ethically problematic investigations into the psychological, physiological, and sociological
Speaker 2: effects attributed to magic and alcohol practices. These would have
Speaker 2: been conducted by individuals like Gottlieb operating within the larger
Speaker 2: umbrella of programs like MK Ultra, all driven by the
Speaker 2: desperate Cold War imperative to gain any advantage, no matter
Speaker 2: how unconventional or unsettling. It's the ultimate what if scenario
Speaker 2: that was just plausible enough to exist in the shadowy
Speaker 2: corners of the world's most secret intelligence agencies.
Speaker 1: The allure of operation, often in similar clandestigne government ventures
Speaker 1: into the supernatural, has predictably resonated deeply within popular culture. Books, films,
Speaker 1: and television series have drawn inspiration from these rumors, sometimes
Speaker 1: blurring the lines between historical fact and dramatic embellishment. I mean,
Speaker 1: think about the TV show Stranger Things. You've got, the
Speaker 1: secretive government lab experiments on children with psychic abilities, the
Speaker 1: breaching of other dimensions. These elements clearly draw from the
Speaker 1: legacy of MK Ultra and the broader fascination with psychic espionage.
Speaker 1: The idea of the upside down world even echoes a
Speaker 1: distorted alternate reality that some might associate with magical or
Speaker 1: demonic realms. Or think about the movie The Men Who
Speaker 1: Stare at Goats. While a comedic film it's based on
Speaker 1: a nonfiction book about the US military's actual interest in
Speaker 1: psychic warfare, earth army concepts and even attempts to kill
Speaker 1: goats by staring at them. This reflects the very real
Speaker 1: but sometimes absurd lengths agencies went to, and of course
Speaker 1: this all led to various conspiracy theories. Operation often often
Speaker 1: surfaces in broader conspiracy theories that link government agencies to
Speaker 1: occult societies and secret rituals, and even direct communication with
Speaker 1: non human entities. While a lot of these are unsubstantiated,
Speaker 1: these theories feed on the documented history of mk ultra's
Speaker 1: ethical breaches and the human desire to explain the inexplicable.
Speaker 1: These cultural echoes serve a dual purpose. They entertain us
Speaker 1: with thrilling what ifs, but they also act as a
Speaker 1: collective memory, a cautionary tale about the dangers of unchecked power,
Speaker 1: scientific hubris, and the desperate pursuit of advantage at any cost.
Speaker 1: They remind us that sometimes the most unsettling truths are
Speaker 1: stranger than any fiction we could invent.
Speaker 2: So here we are, in twenty twenty five, still talking
Speaker 2: about whispers from decades past. Cold War is over, but
Speaker 2: the questions remain what truly happened behind those closed doors,
Speaker 2: what lines were or were not crossed, and what, if anything,
Speaker 2: they truly discover about the nature of reality, human consciousness,
Speaker 2: and the forces that might lie beyond our conventional understanding.
Speaker 2: How many lives were irrevocably altered or tragically ended in
Speaker 2: the pursuit of these unconventional weapons and mind control techniques.
Speaker 2: The very existence of these operations, even in fragmented form,
Speaker 2: challenges us to consider the limits of our knowledge and
Speaker 2: the boundless, sometimes terrifying curiosity of humankind. The truth, as
Speaker 2: always with intelligence operations, almost anything really is likely far
Speaker 2: more complex, fragmented, and perhaps less sensational than the rumors suggest.
Speaker 1: Okay, so, dev I know, this was a lot of
Speaker 1: information and a lot of sad and kind of scary information,
Speaker 1: and like we said, a lot of it is alleged.
Speaker 1: I mean, I read so many different articles and sections
Speaker 1: of books that said the CIA consulted with Sybil Leaks
Speaker 1: and Anton Levy and all sorts of other stuff that
Speaker 1: I didn't include in the notes because they're not super
Speaker 1: well documented. But I do think about you know, I'm
Speaker 1: always quoting from Unsolved Mysteries, my favorite show growing up
Speaker 1: but there was that episode. I think it was doctor
Speaker 1: Bruce Lipton who was talking about how he became interested
Speaker 1: in the power of belief, And it was about this
Speaker 1: man who came into the hospital and he said he
Speaker 1: had been cursed and he was in fact dying, and
Speaker 1: the doctors could not figure out what he was dying from,
Speaker 1: but because he believed he was cursed, he was physically dying.
Speaker 1: And so, like I said, I think it was doctor
Speaker 1: Bruce Lipton was raised by a nanny who had taught
Speaker 1: him about curses, and so he knew how to break
Speaker 1: a curse. Now, he did not believe in any of this,
Speaker 1: but he knew this man, this patient, believed in it,
Speaker 1: and so he and his fellow interness performed in front
Speaker 1: of this patient a ritual to quote break this alleged curse,
Speaker 1: and the man watched and participated and believed the curse
Speaker 1: was broken. And when the doctors went to check on
Speaker 1: the patient the next morning, he was one hundred percent healthy.
Speaker 1: All of his vital signs were great, blood work was wonderful,
Speaker 1: and he was able to go home. So it does
Speaker 1: make you think how the mind can truly believe all
Speaker 1: of this, And maybe the government did look at it
Speaker 1: as psychological warfare.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely. And you know, as we were beginning this
Speaker 2: episode to record Samantha, I remembered a book that I
Speaker 2: read truly, probably back in the late sixties early seventies,
Speaker 2: called something about Secrets behind the Iron Curtain, and it
Speaker 2: was about telekinesis work and studies in Russia about this
Speaker 2: sort of thing. And I would think that one of
Speaker 2: the aspects of what we've talked about today was so
Speaker 2: and answer to what was probably going on in other
Speaker 2: countries as well.
Speaker 1: I have tried very hard through the years to do
Speaker 1: research for a show on the Russian remote viewing program
Speaker 1: during the Cold War and the alleged Chinese program on
Speaker 1: psychic spies. I can't find it. I can find snippets
Speaker 1: here and there, but nothing to put a whole show together.
Speaker 2: Which I don't think is a maybe we're not meant
Speaker 2: to do that. Okay, okay, But.
Speaker 1: I don't you think it's important to know this so
Speaker 1: that you can understand and really think for yourself and
Speaker 1: not believe everything the government tells you.
Speaker 2: Well, yes, I certainly don't believe everything I'm told, but
Speaker 2: I figure what you're saying I do.
Speaker 1: So It's interesting because the reason why I wanted to
Speaker 1: do this show is well, one, we've gotten a lot
Speaker 1: of really good feedback on the other shows we've done
Speaker 1: on some of the CIA's declassified reports on like the
Speaker 1: Gateway and the Stargate Project, so I was looking to
Speaker 1: do something else on that. But also on my for
Speaker 1: you pages on social media, a lot of videos were
Speaker 1: popping up on how the government was working with witches
Speaker 1: and magical practitioners, and I was like, say what, I
Speaker 1: got to look into this. So everything I researched had
Speaker 1: the word alleged in front of it, which is interesting.
Speaker 2: So we're alleged, alleged, alleged all through that.
Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, And there are a lot of books that
Speaker 1: have been written about Sidney Gottlieb, like Poisoner in Chief,
Speaker 1: but there's several others, and so his creepy work, like
Speaker 1: we said, is very very well documented.
Speaker 2: Weird. The whole thing is weirds man. As we'll talk
Speaker 2: about rainbows and udicorns and quartz crystals. Okay, I know
Speaker 2: you want to talk about stuff, and I know what.
Speaker 2: We have listeners who do too, But I'm over here
Speaker 2: trying to take deep breaths.
Speaker 1: It doesn't scare me. It makes me sad, But can't
Speaker 1: you see them actually studying this? And you know what
Speaker 1: else it made me think about before we wrap up,
Speaker 1: what it made me think about the show we did
Speaker 1: on the occult history of the Nazis in World War Two. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I didn't like that show we'd I but you know
Speaker 1: how they really truly did study, and they did invade
Speaker 1: a lot of libraries throughout Europe and confiscated all the
Speaker 1: inching grimoires.
Speaker 2: Yes, I know, I'm aware.
Speaker 1: There's got to be some truth to all of that
Speaker 1: deb Why would all these governments have an interest? Well? Sure, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I know all right, I can feel deb fading on me,
Speaker 1: can you guys? I think she's I'm talking about this
Speaker 1: spooky stuff. So you guys can share your comments with me.
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, let us know and we
Speaker 1: wish you a wonderful happy week filled with rainbows, kittens
Speaker 1: and unicorns. Please remember, as always, to be the light
Speaker 1: for yourself and others.
Speaker 2: Take care everyone.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Psychic Teachers, your podcast for seekers,
Speaker 1: light workers, mystics, and magical thinkers. If you like the show,
Speaker 1: please tell a friend or leave us a review wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your podcast. For more information, check out
Speaker 1: our Facebook page Psychic Teachers, or our websites Samantha Fay
Speaker 1: dot com and Deb Bowen dot com. Thanks for listening
Speaker 1: and have a great week.