WEBVTT 1 00:00:18.839 --> 00:00:20.640 Hey guys, Deb and I just wanted to take a 2 00:00:20.679 --> 00:00:23.320 moment to thank you for listening to the show and 3 00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:25.480 ask you to share it with a friend or leave 4 00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:28.960 a comment on Spotify or Apple. It really does help us. 5 00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:31.600 You can also show your love and support by signing 6 00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:34.840 up for our newsletters or following us on social media. 7 00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:39.520 Our websites Samantha Fay dot com and Debbowen dot com 8 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:43.799 you can find our e courses, meditations, and crystal bracelets. 9 00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:46.960 You can also pre order Deb's new book, Crafting the 10 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:49.320 Wheel of the Year, and on my site you can 11 00:00:49.399 --> 00:00:52.560 order sign copies of my books as well. And I'm 12 00:00:52.600 --> 00:00:55.200 excited to announce that Deb is going to be on 13 00:00:55.240 --> 00:00:59.679 my other podcast, Enlightened Mpaths. So we're really happy to 14 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:03.240 share a beautiful conversation we have with Denise and Deb 15 00:01:03.320 --> 00:01:03.920 and myself. 16 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:04.879 Hope you check it out. 17 00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:10.519 Hello, and welcome to Psychic Teachers. I'm your host, Samantha 18 00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:14.400 Fay and I'm Deb Bowen, and today we are delving 19 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:18.920 into a chapter of Cold War history so bizarre, so 20 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:22.680 audacious that it sounds less like a government strategy and 21 00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:26.159 more like a fever dream. We're gonna be talking about 22 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:30.599 whispers of ancient powers, the pursuit of the impossible, and 23 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:36.840 the unsettling intersection of clandestine intelligence with the occult. Imagine 24 00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:40.319 the world in the mid twentieth century. The cold world 25 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:44.079 is at its chilling peak. Superpowers are locked in a 26 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:49.040 desperate arms race, scrambling for every conceivable advantage, and in 27 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.439 the shadows, an agency known for its cloak and dagger tactics, 28 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:58.560 the CIA, reportedly turned its gaze not just to nuclear 29 00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:04.200 codes or satellite and intelligence, but to magic, to the unseen, 30 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:08.639 to the very fabric of reality itself. Today, we're going 31 00:02:08.639 --> 00:02:11.800 to peel back the layers on something often hinted at, 32 00:02:11.960 --> 00:02:19.240 sensationalized and yet rarely fully understood, the alleged CIA operation. 33 00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:24.120 Often we'll explore how the Central Intelligence Agency, along with 34 00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:28.800 its notorious chemist Sidney Gottlieb, supposedly dealt into the realms 35 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:33.520 of the occult, studied ancient magic, and according to some accounts, 36 00:02:33.639 --> 00:02:38.879 even sought out and hired practicing witches and occultists. Allegedly 37 00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:43.159 and will confront the darker rumors the alleged development of 38 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:48.639 tools for silent assassinations, specifically appealed to induce a heart attack, 39 00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:53.000 and the disturbing reports of these studies and others being 40 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:57.520 conducted on unwitting prisoners, And the most chilling question of 41 00:02:57.560 --> 00:03:02.879 all was Operation Offen, genuinely looking for proof of magic 42 00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:07.879 and demons. This isn't just about secret labs and shadowy figures. 43 00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:12.319 It's about the outer limits of human belief, the desperation 44 00:03:12.439 --> 00:03:16.360 of a nation, and what happens when science, espionage and 45 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:19.039 the supernatural collide. 46 00:03:19.240 --> 00:03:24.520 Yikes, Okay, here we go. To understand the genesis of 47 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:30.280 anything as seemingly outlandish as this quote, Operation often, we 48 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:34.680 must first immerse ourselves in the paranoid crucible of the 49 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:40.360 Cold War. The nineteen fifties, sixties, and seventies were an 50 00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:45.840 era defined by fear, scientific competition, and a no bolds 51 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:50.599 barred approach to national security. The United States and the 52 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:56.240 Soviet Union were locked in a technological arms race, nuclear weapons, 53 00:03:56.680 --> 00:04:02.960 space exploration, advanced weapon beneath the surface. Another more subtle 54 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:07.879 race was unfolding, a race for control over the human mind, 55 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:14.039 over consciousness itself. This was the era of Project mk Ultra, 56 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:21.199 a now infamous and extensively documented CIA program. Its official 57 00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:27.920 mandate was mind control, exploring everything from hypnosis, sensory deprivation, 58 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:32.639 and truth serums, to most notoriously, the use of LSD 59 00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:40.000 and other psychoactive drugs to manipulate human behavior, illicit confessions, 60 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:45.199 or even create Manchurian candidates. Didney got Leave, a brilliant 61 00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:49.319 but ethically controversial chemist, was at the very heart of 62 00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:53.639 mk Ultra. He was the architect of its most audacious 63 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:59.879 and often horrifying experiments, earning him the nickname the Black Sorcerer. 64 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:04.879 But while mk Ultra focused largely on pharmacology and psychology, 65 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:11.279 whispers persisted, and indeed, some declassified documents later confirm that 66 00:05:11.319 --> 00:05:16.439 the CIA's interest extended beyond the purely chemical. They were deeply, 67 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:20.199 almost obsessively curious about anything that might give them an 68 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:26.879 edge extrasensory perception known as esp telekinesis remote viewing psychic abilities. 69 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:33.120 But why because reports suggested that the Soviets were also 70 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:39.040 investing heavily in psychic warfare, training clairvoyants and telepaths, hoping 71 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:43.759 to gain an insurmountable advantage in intelligence gathering or even 72 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:49.000 direct influence. Imagine the CIA's mindset if the enemy could 73 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:54.639 read minds, influence leaders from Afar, or even incapacitate soldiers 74 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:58.680 with just mere thought alone, then the US had to 75 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:00.839 be able to do it too, or at the very 76 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:04.399 least understand it well enough to defund against it. This 77 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:09.000 desperate desire for unconventional advantage opened the door to truly 78 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:13.600 extraordinary avenues of research. It was within this climate of 79 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:18.959 scientific desperation and existential fear that the alleged Operation often 80 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:20.680 is said to have emerged. 81 00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:25.680 If Operation Often exists as more than just a rumor 82 00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:30.560 or an extreme offshoot of MK Ultra, its central figure 83 00:06:30.759 --> 00:06:35.360 is undoubtedly Sidney Gottlieb. Gottlieb was not a mystic, but 84 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:43.839 a highly intelligent, somewhat eccentric biochemist. His work often involved poisons, hallucinogens, 85 00:06:43.879 --> 00:06:46.720 and a deep interest in the vulnerable state of the 86 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:50.879 human mind. He truly believed in pushing the boundaries of 87 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:57.399 what was known, even if those boundaries included crossing ethical lines. Gottlieb, 88 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:02.199 by all accounts, was obsessed with finding non traditional methods 89 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:07.639 of influence and control. He authorized experiments where unwitting subjects 90 00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:11.560 were dosed with LSD, where prostitutes were paid to lure 91 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:15.839 men to CIA safe houses for drug experiments, and where 92 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:21.040 sensory deprivation chambers pushed individuals to the brink of sanity. 93 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:26.720 His vision for MLK Ultra was broad, encompassing anything that 94 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:31.360 could disrupt, influence, or control the mind. One of the 95 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:35.480 most chilling allegations associated with Gottlieb and the projects of 96 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:38.879 this era, which could very well fall under the umbrella 97 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:43.600 of something like MK often existed, was the development of 98 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:48.920 a so called heart attack bill. This was supposedly a 99 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:53.240 highly potent toxin designed to induce a fatal heart attack 100 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:57.040 and a target leaving no trace in an autopsy that 101 00:07:57.079 --> 00:08:01.079 would suggest foul play. The idea was to create natural 102 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:05.920 causes a death that was in fact carefully an orchestrated assassination. 103 00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:11.079 So it's this broad scope, combined with his known willingness 104 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:15.959 to explore extreme possibilities, that make the claims about operation 105 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:21.279 often plausible. Within the context of his work, Gottlieb wasn't 106 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:24.079 afraid to look into the abyss if he thought that 107 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:27.839 there was an advantage to be gained, if traditional science 108 00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:30.959 wasn't providing answers fast enough, or if the Soviets were 109 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:34.840 rumored to be exploring new frontiers. Gottlieb was the man 110 00:08:34.919 --> 00:08:37.519 to greenlight the most unorthodox inquiries. 111 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:42.960 Now Here's where the specific claims about Operation often begin 112 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:48.440 to diverge from well documented history into more speculative territory. 113 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:52.600 So though rooted in some declassified fragments and in the 114 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:57.039 broader context of mk ULTRA. So we know the weird 115 00:08:57.080 --> 00:09:01.080 stuff that Sydney did with l S D and using 116 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:04.480 prostitutes to lure men in and you know, have them 117 00:09:04.559 --> 00:09:08.360 filmed high on drugs and doing these different things, all 118 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:11.639 of that is super well documented in mk Ultra. I mean, 119 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:15.639 for crying out loud, Whitey Bulger was part of that, 120 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:19.759 unknowingly when he was in prison. Even they even experimented 121 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:23.639 on Harvard students like Ted Kaczynski. So the mk ultra 122 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:27.360 stuff is very well documented. All the stuff we're talking 123 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:31.200 about today with Operation often there's a couple of documents 124 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:33.159 that have been released, but a lot of stuff in 125 00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:36.480 there is really really redacted. So just keep in mind 126 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:39.919 that the reason why we keep saying allegedly with Operation 127 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:43.279 often is because it is not as well documented as 128 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:50.200 mk Ultra. So while official records explicitly detailing Operation often 129 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:54.759 as a distinct, massive project focused solely on magic and demons, 130 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:59.799 are very scarce or unconfirmed, the spirit of such an 131 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:05.840 operation aligns perfectly with Gottlieb's modus operande. The narrative suggests 132 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:09.039 that Gottlieb, in his relentless pursuit of mind control and 133 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:14.279 unconventional weaponry, became interested in historical accounts of magic, ritual 134 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:18.480 and occult practices. He theorized, or was at least open 135 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:22.840 to the idea that ancient rituals and specific magical practices 136 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:27.879 might contain keys to altering consciousness, influencing events, or even 137 00:10:27.960 --> 00:10:32.600 directly harming enemies in ways modern science hadn't yet grasped. 138 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:36.759 This wasn't necessarily about believing in liberal spells, but about 139 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:42.919 investigating the potential psychological or energetic effects attributed to them, 140 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:49.080 or discovering an underlying scientific principle hidden within these ancient traditions. 141 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:55.039 So what did this study of magic entail under Gottlieb's 142 00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:58.919 alleged direction in operation. Often, it wouldn't have been your 143 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:03.200 typical universe city recent project think moral on the lines 144 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:11.120 of deconstructing antrech grimoires, analyzing folkloric practices, and examining historical 145 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:16.519 accounts of witchcraft, shamanism, and esoteric rituals, the idea was 146 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:21.120 likely twofold. One would be disruption in warfare. Could specific 147 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:25.799 rituals for psychological manipulations derived from occult practices be used 148 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:30.360 to sow discord, induce fear, or even cause psychological breaks 149 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:34.320 in enemy populations or leaders? Could a curse be used 150 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:38.080 as a psychological weapon? And then, of course he wanted 151 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:41.799 to look at unconventional influence and power. Could there be genuine, 152 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:47.799 untapped human potential or energetic principles embedded within magical traditions that, 153 00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:53.559 if harnessed, could provide intelligence advantages, influence outcomes, or even 154 00:11:53.639 --> 00:11:57.840 create a form of psychic weaponry. This wasn't about believing 155 00:11:57.879 --> 00:12:02.320 in wands and potions in a literal sense. It was 156 00:12:02.360 --> 00:12:07.320 about asking if someone believed they were cursed, what psychological 157 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:12.440 effects would that have. Could certain symbols, sounds, or rituals 158 00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:18.279 induce altered states of consciousness more effectively than drugs? Could 159 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:22.879 the collective belief in a ritual create a tangible energetic field. 160 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:27.039 Imagine the CIA pouring over translated text of the Key 161 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:30.320 of Solomon not as a mystical guide, but as a 162 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:35.240 potential manual for psychological operations. They might analyze the use 163 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:39.200 of specific incantations for their phonetic properties. The burning of 164 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:43.559 certain herbs for their psychoactive smoke, or the geometric patterns 165 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:46.960 and sigils for their potential subliminal effects on the human mind. 166 00:12:47.679 --> 00:12:50.960 It would be a deconstructionist approach to magic, trying to 167 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:55.960 extract any practical, manipulable elements, even if divorced from their 168 00:12:55.960 --> 00:12:59.720 original spiritual context. They'd be looking for the how and 169 00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:03.360 the what, not necessarily the why in a spiritual sense. 170 00:13:04.159 --> 00:13:06.960 So this brings us to a more controversial and highly 171 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:11.279 debated aspect of Operation Often that we're going to get into, 172 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:16.919 the alleged hiring of practicing witches and occultist whoa. 173 00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:22.039 This is perhaps the most sensational claim surrounding Operation Often, 174 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:27.480 and one that often draws skepticism. Did the CIA truly 175 00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:35.159 higher practicing witches, astrologers and occultists? While direct, widespread, declassified 176 00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:41.200 evidence explicitly states we hired coven remains elusive under the 177 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:47.200 operation named often, That historical context makes this less fantastical 178 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:52.759 than it first appears. Remember the CIA's documented interest in 179 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:57.840 parapsychology for Project Stargate, which focused on remote viewing, and 180 00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:02.039 on other projects they did one equivocally work with individuals 181 00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:06.840 who had psychic abilities, including famous remote viewers like Ingo 182 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:12.679 Swan and Pat Price. They consulted psychics, astrologers, and even 183 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:18.919 dowsers in attempts to find submarines, locate hostages, or gain intelligence. 184 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:24.000 Given this, the leap to consulting with, or even quote 185 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:30.080 hiring individuals practicing more traditional forms of magic or occultism 186 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:33.399 isn't as far fetched as it seems. It wasn't about 187 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:37.240 the CIA embracing witchcraft as a spiritual path. It was 188 00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:43.039 about their pragmatic results oriented an ethically flexible approach to 189 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:46.360 gathering any perceived advantage. 190 00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:51.200 Imagine the CIA encountering reports of a practitioner, say in 191 00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:55.559 San Francisco, who cleaned influence events or gain information through 192 00:14:55.679 --> 00:14:59.279 a ritual. Gottlieb's team might have approached them not with 193 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:01.759 an offer to j in the CIA, but to study 194 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:04.799 their methods to see if there was any verifiable effect, 195 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:08.879 or to understand the psychological impact on the partitioner and 196 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:13.639 their targets. This could involve observing rituals, analyzing their effectiveness, 197 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:17.159 or even attempting to replicate parts of their practice under 198 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:22.440 controlled or not so controlled conditions. One persistent rumor sometimes 199 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:25.679 linked to this era tells of a high ranking intelligence 200 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:29.879 official attending a specific occult gathering, not as a participant, 201 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:33.080 but as an observer. Their goal was to assess the 202 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:37.559 psychological cohesion of the group, the potential for crowd manipulation, 203 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:41.120 and to see if the belief systems of these people 204 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:46.200 might be susceptible to certain influences. So, while not hiring 205 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:49.039 a witch, it certainly falls into the realm of studying 206 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:51.480 their practices for intelligence purposes. 207 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:56.919 The truth is likely nuanced. The CIA probably didn't put 208 00:15:56.919 --> 00:16:01.679 out job ads for chief enchantment, but they al most 209 00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:07.759 certainly consulted, observed, and experimented with individuals who claimed abilities 210 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:12.240 or utilized practices that aligned with the definition of occult. 211 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:17.120 All in the desperate pursuit of an edge against Cold 212 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:22.159 War adversaries, the distinction between a psychic and an occultist 213 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:26.200 might have been less relevant to Gottlab than the potential 214 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:27.639 for a usable outcome. 215 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:34.200 Now, for the chilling question was operation often genuinely looking 216 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:37.720 for proof of magic and demons. This is where the 217 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:43.000 narrative descends deepest into speculative and sensational territory, and where 218 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:46.000 we need to apply a critical lens. On the one hand, 219 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:50.000 The explicit goal of proving magic redeemons doesn't align with 220 00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:54.360 the pragmatic, if unethical, scientific approach of the CIA operating 221 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:59.320 at this time. Their aim was operational effectiveness, not theological validation. 222 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:02.840 They wanted to know if a phenomenon worked and if 223 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:06.240 it could be weaponized or exploited. However, this doesn't mean 224 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:09.319 the question of magic or demons was an explored within 225 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:15.319 their parameters. Consider these possibilities magic, for example, as mechanism. 226 00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:19.319 Instead of proving magic as a spiritual force, they might 227 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:23.559 have been looking for the mechanism behind purported magical effects. 228 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:27.200 If a cur seemed to cause illness, was it a 229 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:33.480 psychological suggestion, a poison, or an unknown energetic transmission. If 230 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:37.039 a ritual produced altered states, how did it do so? 231 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:41.279 They were seeking a scientific explanation for what was traditionally 232 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:46.440 called magic, and possibly looking at demons as psychological weapons. 233 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:49.519 The concept of demons might have been explored not as 234 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:54.880 literal entities, but as archetypes, psychological constructs, or even as 235 00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:59.599 a means to induce severe psychological distress. Could a manipulated 236 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:04.960 environ or a carefully constructed haunting induce madness or compliance? 237 00:18:05.559 --> 00:18:09.400 Could the belief in a demonic presence break a person's will. 238 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:14.799 Gottlieb was certainly interested in breaking people's wills, and then, 239 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:17.599 of course you have the power of belief. The CIA 240 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:20.200 at this time was keenly aware of the power of 241 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:24.880 belief if a population deeply believed in a specific magical 242 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:28.960 practice or a demonic curse, Understanding that belief could be 243 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:35.039 crucial for propaganda, psychological warfare, or even creating demoralizing effects. 244 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:38.880 Picture this, The CIA here is a report of a 245 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:43.200 remote village in an enemy state where a powerful shaman 246 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:49.480 is causing widespread psychological distress through alleged curses. Instead of 247 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:54.160 dismissing it, Gotlief's interests might be picked not because he 248 00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:57.960 believes in the shaman's literal magic, but because he wants 249 00:18:58.039 --> 00:19:03.759 to understand the psychological vulneulnerability of the population to such beliefs, 250 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:09.240 and whether that this vulnerability could be replicated or exploited 251 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:13.480 on a larger scale. Could the demon simply be a 252 00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:18.799 culturally ingrained fear that could be triggered. So while the 253 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:23.240 CIA wasn't likely looking to confirm the existence of horn devils, 254 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:28.920 they were almost certainly probing the effects attributed to magic 255 00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:34.640 and the psychological impact of believing in demonic forces. Their 256 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:40.039 goal was control and understanding, not necessarily theological truth. The 257 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:44.319 proof they sought would be functional and exploitable result. 258 00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:47.240 Now, this next bit of our research is perhaps the 259 00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:51.559 most disturbing and ethically indefensible aspect of projects like MK. 260 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:57.799 Often the use of vulnerable populations, including prisoners, for human experimentation. 261 00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:02.359 While the direct link to magic and demon studies under 262 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:07.599 a name MK often is speculative, the CIA's historical record 263 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:15.599 clearly shows that involuntary experimentation was a cornerstone of MK ultra. Prisoners, 264 00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:20.720 along with psychiatric patients, drug addicts, and other marginalized individuals, 265 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:24.440 were seen as ideal subjects because they were readily available, 266 00:20:24.759 --> 00:20:29.000 often lacked legal recourse, and their complaints were easily dismissed. 267 00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:33.200 The methods used in MK ultra on these unwitting subjects 268 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:37.880 were horrifying. Subjects were given LSD for days or weeks 269 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:41.880 on end, often without their knowledge or consent, to study 270 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:46.839 its effects on behavior and induce psychosis. Individuals were placed 271 00:20:46.839 --> 00:20:51.279 in isolation chambers for extended periods, coupled with drug administration 272 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.680 to induce extreme psychological states. This was all done in 273 00:20:55.720 --> 00:21:00.279 combination with drugs to disorient and break down the subject's mind. 274 00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:06.559 If Project MK often involved the study of occult rituals 275 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:10.440 for psychological impact or the testing of agents like the 276 00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:15.799 Heart Attack Bill, it is highly plausible, even probable, that 277 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:21.160 such studies would have been conducted on these same vulnerable populations, 278 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:27.359 including prisoners in clandestine facilities. The ethical framework that allowed 279 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:33.359 for MK altra's abuses would certainly permit experiments exploring the 280 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:39.519 psychological effect of cursing someone or testing novel poisons designed 281 00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:45.240 to mimic natural causes. We know, for example, that institutions 282 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:50.119 like the Kentucky State Reformatory were used for LSD experiments 283 00:21:50.119 --> 00:21:54.119 on prisoners. It's not a stretch to imagine that if 284 00:21:54.119 --> 00:21:58.920 God leaves interests extended to the psychological impact of fear 285 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:05.440 induced by methods or the testing of untraceable poisonings, these 286 00:22:05.559 --> 00:22:10.720 vulnerable populations would have been targeted. The silence of these victims. 287 00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:15.279 Their lack of voice made them convenient subjects for the 288 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:20.319 most dangerous and unethical inquiries. The allegation of using prisoners 289 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:24.759 for any form of these dark experiments underscore the profound 290 00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:29.519 ethical breaches committed by the CIA during this period. The 291 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:34.240 lack of consent, the disregard for human dignity, the potential 292 00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:38.279 for severe, lasting harm, or even death, remains a stain 293 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:43.319 on the history of intelligence operations. The veil of secrecy 294 00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:48.559 ensured that the horrors endured by these individuals remained hidden 295 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:51.079 for decades, if not forever. 296 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:56.200 So, whether Project mk often existed as a distinct named 297 00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:01.319 program or as an integrated component of larger initiations, its 298 00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:06.440 alleged activities raise profound ethical questions, echoing the controversies of 299 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:11.440 MK Ultra. When intelligence agencies delve into the manipulation of 300 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:15.440 the mind or the exploitation of belief systems, the human 301 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:20.160 cost can be immense. If individuals were subjected to experiments 302 00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:25.359 involving ritualistic elements, altered states, or the intentional induction of fear, 303 00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:30.119 the psychological damage could be devastating. Many MK Ultra victims 304 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:34.839 suffered lifelong trauma, addiction, and mental health issues. The pursuit 305 00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:39.240 of magic would likely involve even more volatile psychological terrain. 306 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:44.680 If an operation like often existed in its more sensationalized form, 307 00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:49.240 why is it not widely declassified like Project MK Ultra 308 00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:52.920 or Stargate. Well, there are several reasons why it would 309 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:56.799 remain deeply buried or highly fragmented in the public records. 310 00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:00.759 Research into magic and demons would be far more politically 311 00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:04.960 and socially volatile than even LSD mind control. The public 312 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:08.680 outcry if discovered would have been immense. Such research would 313 00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:12.319 be deemed absurd at best and deeply disturbing or morally 314 00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:16.680 reprehensible at worst, and the CIA is a master of 315 00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:21.599 plausible deniability. Even if such experiments occurred, they would likely 316 00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:25.880 be buried under broader project names like mk ultra itself, 317 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:30.200 or fragmented across many reports, or conducted through cutouts and 318 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:35.759 third parties to make direct connections difficult. Or let's say 319 00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:39.960 the research didn't yield any actionable results, no verifiable magic, 320 00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:43.240 no controllable demons, then there would be little incentive to 321 00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:46.279 declassify it. It would simply be deemed a failed experiment and 322 00:24:46.359 --> 00:24:50.960 allowed to fade into obscurity. And it's highly probable that 323 00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:56.319 any occult studies were simply subcomponents or highly specific experiments 324 00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:00.599 within larger existing projects like mk ultra, so instead of 325 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:04.759 a distinct operation, often it might have been mk Ultra 326 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:09.119 subproject Gamma seven. Such and such just to make the 327 00:25:09.319 --> 00:25:13.200 direct lineage extremely difficult to trace. And that makes sense, 328 00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:16.440 doesn't it. Well, it does, but you know, it made 329 00:25:16.519 --> 00:25:21.000 me think. There was an outcry when mk Ultra was declassified, 330 00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:23.799 and you have sub documentaries. I think one is called 331 00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:28.119 the Wormwood documentaries. There's some outcry about it, but not 332 00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:29.480 as much as you would think. 333 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:33.440 That's probably because so much of it was redacted or unknown. 334 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:38.720 True. So, the continued obscurity of operation, often in the 335 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:42.519 public eye, doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen in some form. 336 00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:45.519 It just means the CIA was exceptionally good at keeping 337 00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:49.240 this particular secret, or the results were deemed too sensitive, 338 00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:53.240 to embarrassing or too inconclusive to see the light of day. So, 339 00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:58.079 whether Operation often existed at all or as a distinct 340 00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:04.160 named program, its alleged activities raise profound ethical questions, which 341 00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:08.480 echo the controversies of MK Ultra. When intelligence agencies delve 342 00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:12.200 into the manipulation of the mind or the exploitation of 343 00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:16.480 belief systems, the human cost is immense if individuals are 344 00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:21.400 subjected to experiments involving ritualistic elements or altered states, or 345 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:25.079 the intentional induction of fear. Let me just think about 346 00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:26.680 the psychological damage. 347 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:30.799 So I must ask were the quote practicing witches and 348 00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:37.960 occultists brought in willingly, fully informed, and ethically compensated, or 349 00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:42.759 were they manipulated, coerced or unwitting participants in experiments that 350 00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:45.720 might have pushed them to their limits or even driven 351 00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:50.240 them to psychological distress. What were the long term effects 352 00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:55.680 on the researchers themselves. Delving into such dark and unconventional territories, 353 00:26:56.400 --> 00:27:01.960 the line between objective observation and psychological entanglement can become 354 00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:07.039 dangerously blurred. For example, if they did an experiment where 355 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:10.519 a subject is led to believe they are undergoing an 356 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:15.359 ancient demonic possession ritual, even if it's all staged to 357 00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:20.119 study their psychological breakdown, can you imagine the horrific outcome, 358 00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:25.799 The terror, the paranoia, the potential for lasting psychosis. These 359 00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:31.119 are chilling ethic ramifications of such a pursuit. Regardless of 360 00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:35.640 whether a quote demon was literally present, the psychological harm 361 00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:38.720 would be very real. And if a heart attack, pill 362 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:43.480 or other untraceable poisons were being tested, the ultimate ethical 363 00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:47.519 breach of taking a human life for intelligence purposes is 364 00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:50.559 laid bare with the added horror of trying to make 365 00:27:50.599 --> 00:27:55.640 it appear natural. The shroud of secretcy around projects like Operation, 366 00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:59.759 often whether by design or due to lack of definitive results, 367 00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:02.920 means that the full human cost will never be known. 368 00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:09.039 The lingering fascination with Operation often is undoubtedly fueled by 369 00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:13.400 the proven reality of Project mk Ultra. The revelations about 370 00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:17.400 mk Ultra, particularly in the nineteen seventies, completely shattered public 371 00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:21.039 trust in the CIA and exposed a dark chapter of 372 00:28:21.079 --> 00:28:25.319 government experimentation. It taught us that the impossible, the unethical, 373 00:28:25.400 --> 00:28:29.200 and the truly bizarre could and did happen within the 374 00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:33.680 confines of secret government programs. Once it was proven that 375 00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:37.880 the CIA experimented with LSD to create mind control and 376 00:28:38.119 --> 00:28:41.880 pursued avenues like developing a death seer or other untraceable 377 00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:46.079 means of incapacitation, the public became far more open to 378 00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:49.720 believing other, even wilder claims. This is where the seed 379 00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:53.759 of Operation often found fertile ground. If they're messing with 380 00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:56.880 drugs to control minds, why not ancient spells or rituals. 381 00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:00.759 The logical leap, while significant, became more palatable once the 382 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:04.480 initial barrier of our government wouldn't do that was broken 383 00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:09.559 the declassified documents related to psychic research like Project Stargate 384 00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:14.640 further solidified this. While Stargate focused on remote viewing, it 385 00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:19.400 showed the CIA's willingness to invest millions in parapsychological phenomena. 386 00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:23.319 The line between psychic ability and magic can feel blurry. 387 00:29:23.799 --> 00:29:28.640 After the mk Ultra revelation's public consciousness shifted. Suddenly, any 388 00:29:28.759 --> 00:29:32.880 unusual behavior by the government, any strange rumors could be 389 00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:37.440 framed through the lens of covert experimentation. It led to books, movies, 390 00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:40.839 and TV shows that explored these themes, further cementing the 391 00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:43.440 idea that the CIA was involved in all manner of 392 00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:48.240 occult and mind bending endeavors. This cultural impact, while course 393 00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:51.799 was very sensational, also reflects a very real trauma for 394 00:29:51.880 --> 00:29:53.160 the breach of public trust. 395 00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:58.920 It's important to understand that the CIA's approach, particularly Gottliebs, 396 00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:03.279 was not so spiritual. It was empirical, although in the 397 00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:07.079 most unconventional sense of that word. They were likely looking 398 00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:12.279 for replicable effects, even if the method seemed eserteraric. So, 399 00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:15.880 for example, think about the idea that a curse causes 400 00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:21.079 psychosomatic illness to a CIA operative. This isn't magic, it's 401 00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:26.000