WEBVTT 1 00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:20.519 Where history's shadows cast long, unsettling doubts. The truth lies 2 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:26.559 buried from cryptic wartime codes to assassinations that scarred generations. 3 00:00:27.079 --> 00:00:31.839 Unearth the secrets the world tried to forget. Post Tim 4 00:00:31.960 --> 00:00:36.159 Gardner guides you through a labyrinth of unanswered questions, where 5 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:40.679 every clue pulses with danger and intrigue and perhaps an 6 00:00:40.759 --> 00:00:45.280 opinion or two. It's not all facts, because history never is. 7 00:00:46.039 --> 00:00:47.759 Welcome to the Ciphered Past. 8 00:00:55.640 --> 00:01:37.879 A Welcome everybody to a new podcast of the cipher Past. 9 00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:41.519 I am your host, Tim Gardner, pleased to be here 10 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:48.400 tonight with author and researcher of the Kennedy Assassination mister 11 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:52.319 Corey Hughes. Now. Corey has been an author of two 12 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:57.599 books right now. The first one is a in Black 13 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:02.680 and White which just came out, story of Harvey Oswald. Cory, 14 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:04.400 you can go ahead and reward that for me. I 15 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:05.920 don't have the book up in front of me, but. 16 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:09.919 Sure, Lee. Harvey Oswald and Black and White, Volume one 17 00:02:10.159 --> 00:02:15.000 is about the early life of Oswald, going back to 18 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:19.039 his birth. I start with what we have of his 19 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:21.719 birth certificates, which we actually don't have birth certificates for 20 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:25.319 Lee Harvey Oswald. We have certificates of live birth which 21 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:28.560 were signed about four or five days after his birth. So, 22 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:33.360 but his life is a very interesting, twisted story, and 23 00:02:33.400 --> 00:02:38.319 it's been mostly ignored over the decades since the assassination. 24 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:40.879 So I tried to shine a light on all the 25 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:46.080 contradictions in Oswald's life growing up. And I'm currently working 26 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:48.319 on Lee Harvey Oswald and Black and White Volume two, 27 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:54.520 which focuses on Oswald's time in the Marines, which is 28 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:57.719 even more of a complicated story to tell than the 29 00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:01.919 early life of Oswald. So it's the more you dig 30 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:03.759 into it, the more it comes becomes a parent that 31 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:07.439 they were two Oswald's and so that's the story that. 32 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:10.639 I tell absolutely. And I want to welcome you, thank 33 00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:13.240 you again for being on. We've done work before on 34 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:16.879 Our Spaces Dialogue before, so it's it's a pleasure to 35 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:20.759 be have you on again. And I also wanted to 36 00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:25.400 give you a shout out to your first book, which 37 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:29.039 is one of the best books I've I've ever read 38 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:33.599 about the JFK assassination. It's a warning from history and 39 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:38.879 it is really really, really good and detailed, and if 40 00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:42.159 you haven't picked it up on Amazon, do please pick 41 00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:46.240 that up. And again, it's a pleasure, Cory just to 42 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:47.039 have you on, So. 43 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:52.719 Thank you. A Warning from History took me about two 44 00:03:52.759 --> 00:03:55.680 and a half years to write. I started it at 45 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:58.280 about I don't know, three or four years into my research. 46 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:01.199 At that point I kind of come to the bulk 47 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:03.960 of the conclusions that I flesh out in the book. 48 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:09.319 But my focus was the shooters. So a lot of 49 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:13.400 people out there will talk about the assassination and they'll say, 50 00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:16.720 I don't care about the shooters, Like, what are you 51 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:19.560 talking about? Of course you should care about the shooters, right, 52 00:04:19.879 --> 00:04:22.720 And so nobody has ever even seemingly attempted to tackle 53 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:29.199 that outside of some genuinely outlandish conspiracy theories. And so 54 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:32.399 I felt that there was enough data in order to 55 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:36.600 put that story together, and I believe I was correct 56 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:40.920 in my assessments. So yeah, so Warning from History definitely 57 00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:42.800 if you're interested in knowing who pulled the triggers in 58 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:46.720 their relationship to the larger apparatus, that's definitely the book 59 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:47.199 to get. 60 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:52.720 Yeah, and it's interesting because it does go back in detail. 61 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:58.519 And again that's when I first got a copy, I 62 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:02.519 kind of was in limbo with things I've been studying 63 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:06.959 the assassination for a long time. You know, not Corey 64 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:12.319 Hughes level. You know, Corey used to be a homicide 65 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:18.879 detective and a street cop. Excuse me, forgive me, but 66 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:21.920 it's just interesting the background and then getting into this 67 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:24.519 and the parallels when it comes to let's say, a 68 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:28.040 story like this which is still unsolved, but for you, 69 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:32.480 you have you have a good idea of how how 70 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:35.399 it happened, and and in your mind and in your 71 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:39.439 research your fellow research team's mind, you feel like you've 72 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:42.879 solved this case. Now, what I will say is the 73 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:49.800 differences between let's say life as a police officer on 74 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:53.079 a on a certain murder case versus a case like this, 75 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:56.199 which is still open. What are the parallels on that? 76 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:02.160 Well, I think it'd be easier if I went with 77 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:06.879 the differences, because the big difference and the reason that 78 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:10.639 we can't advance the way we would like to in 79 00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:15.199 our researches is in a modern day case, you can 80 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:19.639 still track down suspects and interrogate them. We don't have 81 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:26.279 that luxury in dealing with Kennedy. Almost everyone's dead. I 82 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:28.240 can think off the top of my head right now. 83 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:31.600 Two suspects who were well aware of what happened there 84 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:36.560 in daily plaza. William Seymour and Paul Landis are still 85 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:39.319 alive and they can be talked to, but they're the 86 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:43.759 only ones. I can't think of another person who is 87 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:49.240 still alive from these circles. And so one thing I 88 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:54.879 want to comment on in general is that when I 89 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:59.399 talk about my conclusions on shooters and whatnot, that is 90 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:01.680 all based on the evidence that's out there, and that's 91 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:04.879 been out there for a long time. And when you 92 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:09.360 go through all the documents on all the relevant subject 93 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:14.920 areas within the assassination, you will eventually establish a cast 94 00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:18.439 of characters, a central cast of characters that pretty much 95 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:25.360 meets the descriptions of witnesses in various places. Right, So 96 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:30.480 police always have when they construct a case, they have 97 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:36.319 their lists of suspects, witnesses, you know, subjects, others, all 98 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:39.560 kinds of stuff. And when in going through this case, 99 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:43.519 I found that establishing a pretty centralized cast of characters 100 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:48.800 wasn't overly difficult. The central cast of characters really circulates 101 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:52.399 around New Orleans and David Ferry and that whole click 102 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:55.879 I'd say, well, over I'd say, like sixty percent of 103 00:07:55.920 --> 00:08:00.680 the plotters are connected to this New Orleans circle, right, 104 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:02.959 And so as you get to know David Ferry and 105 00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:05.959 you get to know the people he surrounded himself with, 106 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:10.160 you can kind of establish whom was in his inner 107 00:08:10.199 --> 00:08:13.519 circle and whom was kind of on the outskirts, whom 108 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:17.199 would have knowledge of his plotting of the assassination, and 109 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:20.600 whom probably wouldn't because they were far enough away. Right. 110 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:28.160 So establishing the central cast of characters is absolutely paramount 111 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:34.600 in putting together any case. And so when I look 112 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:39.360 at the conclusions I've drawn and I look for alternatives, 113 00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:45.159 alternatives to conclusions I've made, I have run out of 114 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:48.440 people in central casting right to plug in the gaps 115 00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:52.240 and the idea that there's anybody who, in all the 116 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:55.679 vast amount of research I've done, who's escaped me in 117 00:08:55.799 --> 00:08:59.960 anybody's inner circle, whether it's Jack Ruby in Dallas or 118 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:04.279 David Ferry in New Orleans, you know, or the mercenaries. Doubt, 119 00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:09.240 in no name, key, there's nobody who I could possibly 120 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:13.399 put in any of the roles who's outside these spheres, 121 00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:16.399 you know what I mean. There's not some random third 122 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:18.600 party I never heard of who could replace any of 123 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.279 the people I put in Daily Plaza. And so that's 124 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:24.279 why I'm pretty confident in the conclusions I've come to. 125 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:30.720 So h yeah, I mean, And again, if you read 126 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:35.240 Corey's work, you'll you'll see just the vast detail that 127 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:37.799 he is put into it. And again, his team of 128 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:43.600 researchers are phenomenal. They really go into it and deep 129 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:49.720 into the whole, you know, the plotting to the aftermath, 130 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:53.279 and is just fantastic to read. I think I've gained 131 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:57.000 more information from you in my time, just my little 132 00:09:57.080 --> 00:10:01.000 short time with the social media aspect of this thing, 133 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:04.600 I've gained so much knowledge from you, and so I'm 134 00:10:04.679 --> 00:10:06.440 very grateful for that in itself. 135 00:10:08.440 --> 00:10:16.080 And another thing is that this central cast of characters 136 00:10:17.080 --> 00:10:21.720 we have been they're all round. The most important ones 137 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:26.559 are surrounding David Faerry in New Orleans, and everybody has 138 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:33.720 been on the verge of like those people are entrenched 139 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:37.320 in everyone's knowledge. Everyone who's into Kennedy understands the New Orleans, 140 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:42.200 seeing the relationships, and they're so close. So many people 141 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:45.720 are so close but fail to pull the trigger, fail 142 00:10:45.799 --> 00:10:48.679 to match The descriptions of the man by ed Hoffman 143 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:51.720 and Velma behind the book depository and the witnesses at 144 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:54.200 the tip of shooting failed to connect that with the 145 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:57.679 descriptions of David Ferry, right, And so it's to me. 146 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:02.200 And like another example is, like Garrison had fucking Ferry 147 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:05.720 in his office on Monday after the assassination. That's how 148 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:09.120 close they came all the way back then thanks to 149 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:14.000 Jack Martin's phone call. Right, Like, the assassination has been 150 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:16.159 on the verge of being solved for decades. If you 151 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:19.759 ask me, it just needed a couple pieces shifted around, 152 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:21.360 that's it, you know. 153 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:28.759 So Yeah, And speaking of which, for our audience members 154 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:33.840 who are just casual viewers to this, your take on 155 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:40.200 how close Jim Garrison got back in his time, you know, 156 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:44.000 with Clay Shaw charging Clay Shaw for the murder of 157 00:11:44.080 --> 00:11:47.600 John Kennedy, please do talk a little bit about that 158 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:52.279 and how our audience can learn about how close he was. 159 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:56.960 And yeah, just give it, give a little spin on that. 160 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:07.360 Sure. So, the entire assassination plot unfolds once you debunk 161 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:11.759 David Fairi's alibi, once you realize he didn't go to 162 00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:15.559 the Winterland in Houston, the ice skating rink, once you 163 00:12:15.639 --> 00:12:19.919 realize that he spent most of that weekend in Hammond, Louisiana. 164 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:23.639 And once you go through the statements of Thomas Compton, 165 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:26.759 who was a Civil Air Patrol guy who is now 166 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:29.480 up at Southeastern University in Louisiana, once you read his 167 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:33.320 statements in the statements of his dorm room roommate of 168 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:36.600 Frank Cholona, once you read those two documents, those two 169 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:40.120 documents are like the thread that when you pull them, 170 00:12:40.360 --> 00:12:44.960 will unravel first David Faerri's entire story, then it will 171 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:49.000 unravel the Knowle, and then it will unravel the whole assassination. Right, 172 00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:54.080 And so the problem with Garrison is that. And I 173 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:57.120 don't know why he never put David Faerry in Dallas, 174 00:12:57.159 --> 00:13:01.480 but to the end he stayed adamant that David Ferry 175 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:04.200 was not in Dallas. And I think most of his 176 00:13:04.279 --> 00:13:07.240 conclusions were drawn upon the fact that that information came 177 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:11.000 from the FBI and the Secret Service. And I just 178 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:14.480 don't understand how he never made that connection, because once 179 00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:18.639 he would have made that connection, the whole thing should 180 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:21.639 have fallen right into place. When you go through the 181 00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:25.159 files about the Winterland, it becomes apparent that the two 182 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:28.519 boys who went with David Ferry allegedly Alvin Bobouf and 183 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:30.879 Melvin Coffee. Melvin Coffee never went on the trip. That 184 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:35.159 was just an alibi use of his name by Leyton Martins. 185 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:39.720 There are some interesting things in the Garrison files and 186 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:43.720 how he structured his files. And he knew that he 187 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:47.039 knew that Leyton Martin's went on that trip, and he 188 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:50.399 also knew that David Ferry never went to the Winterland. 189 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:52.320 And I don't know why he never put this in 190 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:56.120 a book or said it in an interview, but from 191 00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:59.200 the manner in which Garrison structured his files, it became 192 00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:02.879 pretty apparent when you pull his file on Sergei Arcochia, 193 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:04.919 who I have concluded was the man who went to 194 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:08.120 the Winterland instead of David Ferry, who went as David 195 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:12.039 Ferry to provide David Ferry with an alibi. When you 196 00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:17.200 get to the Sergeia Arcocha file in Garrison's collection, the 197 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:22.279 entire file is about the Winterland. It doesn't mention Arkocha once. Now, 198 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:23.919 at first I thought that might have been a mistake, 199 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:27.000 but it wasn't a mistake. Garrison put all the Winterland 200 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:29.240 stuff in the Arcata file because he knew Arkacha went 201 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:31.799 to the Winterland, but he never said it out loud. 202 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:34.679 A lot of things about Garrison and his files that 203 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:39.240 the way he set up and structured his files told 204 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:41.519 me a whole lot more than he ever said in 205 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:44.799 a book or anywhere else. Like when you get to 206 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:48.960 the the Kerry Thornley file within the Garrison collection, on 207 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:54.000 page one is a note about JD. Tippett, Okay, because 208 00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:58.399 he knew that he was involved with the shooting of JD. Tippet. 209 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:03.080 The second page I believe was up a picture of 210 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:06.679 a file from Doug Jones at Jones Printing, and that 211 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:09.039 was because he knew Kerry Thornley picked up the flyers 212 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:12.240 from Doug Jones, the fair Play for Cuba Committee flyers. 213 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:12.480 Right. 214 00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:15.519 So Garrison, just in the way he structured his files 215 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:18.080 told me that he knew a whole lot more than 216 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:21.799 he ever said publicly, which is strange to me. And 217 00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:24.799 I haven't really quite figured that out because I can't 218 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:27.840 ever conclude that he just fi he structured the files 219 00:15:27.879 --> 00:15:30.320 the way he did by accident or was or didn't 220 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:32.000 realize the things that I'm telling you. It just that 221 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:37.080 doesn't make any sense. And so Jim Garrison. Another problem 222 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:39.159 with the Garrison files is we have barely any of them. 223 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:42.960 I know that he arrested Emilio Santana, who I place 224 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:46.600 as the shooter at the Daltex, and he interrogated him 225 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:51.440 for five days. We don't have a single page of 226 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:56.879 that interrogation. Okay, So the vast majority of Garrison's files 227 00:15:56.879 --> 00:16:03.960 were destroyed. There should be a thousand pages on Lauren 228 00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:09.159 Hall and William Seymour and Lawrence Howard, but there aren't. 229 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:13.440 There aren't any. And I did find an interview of 230 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:16.320 Lawrence Howard that was from the Garrison files, but it 231 00:16:16.360 --> 00:16:19.759 was actually stuck in the Wiseberg collection. So Wiseberg scored 232 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:24.480 a copy before it was actually destroyed, which is interesting. So, 233 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:29.480 but Garrison was the closest we had come. He arrested 234 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:32.039 clay Shaw for conspiracy, and he was correct in doing so. 235 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:38.759 He made the connections correctly so to Centremondia Commercial and 236 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:45.120 Lewis Bloomfield and perm Index and the Israeli apparatus. But 237 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:47.120 that never really he never really pushed that angle of 238 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:51.039 things when you look at the materials that he had 239 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:55.120 and the conclusions that he had drawn. He arrested clay 240 00:16:55.120 --> 00:17:00.600 Shaw extremely extremely prematurely, because he hadn't put the case 241 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:06.680 together yet. The most important Garrison stuff came from later on, 242 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:12.480 way after the case was concluded, in his personal notes 243 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:15.079 and things like that. I think he eventually ended up 244 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:17.799 coming to a lot of good conclusions, but he never 245 00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:21.200 put Fairy in Dallas, which is still very frustrating. And 246 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:24.680 I'm positive he never identified the shooter on the knoll, 247 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:28.599 or probably any of the mafia guys who are in 248 00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:31.599 Daily Plaza. But he was on the right track in 249 00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:38.279 his investigations of Faery and clay Shaw, but seemingly he 250 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:40.039 didn't take either one of them far enough. 251 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.640 Yeah, and when I allude to Jim Garrison, I'm talking 252 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:49.480 about District Attorney Jim Garrison. To those people out there 253 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:54.000 who don't know what we're talking about, you know, I 254 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:56.880 think most people in the research community, if not everybody, 255 00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:03.119 has seen JFK the Oliver Stone film. And like you 256 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:07.680 mentioned about Garrison himself, he came up with some really 257 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:12.680 good conclusions. I mean, like he he obviously there there 258 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:15.759 were moles and people he was dealing with, and he 259 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:18.960 was he had threats, you know, his family had threats, 260 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:22.119 you know, and the guy was really just I mean, 261 00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:25.240 you'd mentioned to me one time before that you feel 262 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:28.039 like he was, out of all the researchers, he was 263 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:33.119 pretty close, just like you mentioned about Fairy, I mean 264 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:35.759 like he was he was that close to getting this 265 00:18:35.839 --> 00:18:41.160 thing dialed in. And unfortunately it's just like one of 266 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:42.880 the some of those things in life, you don't know 267 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:46.240 how close you are to greatness until you know. You know, 268 00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:51.119 but it that's how it goes. And so in the 269 00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:54.960 aftermath of Garrison, do you think that he just was 270 00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:58.200 deflated after losing that trial on Shaw. 271 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:06.960 I don't think so. I don't really think he thought 272 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:13.000 he had a chance. And looking at the case, really, 273 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:19.240 it's almost seems like almost that he knew he didn't 274 00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:21.440 have a case, but he had to present what he had. 275 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:24.400 I mean, if you're gonna say that Clay Shaws involved 276 00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:27.440 in the conspiracy to kill the president, you should be 277 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:30.799 able to demonstrate how the president was killed, and he 278 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:33.279 was never able to do that. So to be able 279 00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:36.279 to bridge a gap between that and Clay Shaw is 280 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:38.680 that's difficult, you know. 281 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:43.359 Yeah, And he also he also had Perry Russo's testimony 282 00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:47.519 to work with on that right, and. 283 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:51.839 Perry ruster testimony is so important, it's so important it's. 284 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:56.880 Very, very important. But I think at that time the jurors, 285 00:19:56.920 --> 00:19:59.759 I mean, did they take an account about obviously I 286 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.960 I don't want to get to graphic about this, but 287 00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:06.720 did they take an account obviously his sexuality and of 288 00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:10.359 course some of the problems that he had. And that's 289 00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:15.119 why they kind of discredited him for his testimony. 290 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:24.880 I are you talking about Perry Russo? No, I don't 291 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:29.920 think so. I think his testimony was all right. So 292 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:34.440 when he identified Oswald as being the man at the party, 293 00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:37.279 but he said that he had whiskers. And when you 294 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:40.640 study the Perry Russo story, it turns out that Perry 295 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:44.279 Russo had been to David Ferry's house multiple times in 296 00:20:44.359 --> 00:20:46.720 the weeks leading up to that party and had met 297 00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:51.079 that individual several times, and that person had been introduced 298 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:54.519 as Ferry's roommate. And the first couple of times that 299 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:56.559 he met him, he had a big beard, a full 300 00:20:56.599 --> 00:21:00.559 on bushy beard. Okay, So first off, there's only one 301 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:03.880 person in New Orleans in the circle who's ever had 302 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:06.039 a big, bushy beard and was described as a beatnik, 303 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:11.920 and that's Kerry Thornley, right, And so the party puts 304 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:16.359 what Clem Bertrand and David Ferry and a couple of 305 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:23.119 Cubans and Perry Russo and David Ferry. And the conversation 306 00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:30.480 is extremely prescient, I'll say, because David Ferry is ranting 307 00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:37.440 about Kennedy and they're talking about assassinating Kennedy. They're talking 308 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:43.880 about triangulation of crossfire. They're talking about how everybody involved 309 00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:47.759 needs to have an alibi and they need to be 310 00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:50.240 somewhere where they can be saved, where they can be 311 00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:53.559 said that they were seen in public. They also talk 312 00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:59.039 about how one of the shooters will be the patsy 313 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:02.680 and you'll have to pull it off in a way, 314 00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:05.119 and one way to do it would be that one 315 00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:08.200 of the shooters shoots Kennedy and that one of the 316 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:13.839 other shooters shoots the patsy. And so that was talked about. 317 00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:17.720 And so when you start to dig into like what 318 00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:19.920 they were talking about at this party, and then look 319 00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:24.160 at what happened in Dealey Plaza, it's pretty close. Not identical, 320 00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:26.960 but it's pretty close. You know, triangulation to cross fire 321 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:30.160 and then everyone has an alibi, right clay Shaw said 322 00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:31.920 that he was on the train to Portland, but he 323 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:35.279 doesn't show up. In Portland till the twenty fifth David 324 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:40.400 Ferry is seen at the funeral in Hammon, Louisiana. Right, 325 00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:43.519 that's supposed to be his alibi there, but that conflicts 326 00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:46.160 with a whole bunch of other stuff that he's supposed 327 00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:48.200 to be on this trip. Right, So David Ferry's whole 328 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:50.240 trip story falls apart. 329 00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:51.119 And this was. 330 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:55.279 God. I realized that David Ferry was lying about everything 331 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:58.480 in about not only been doing my research for maybe 332 00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:01.559 a year, it was about twenty nineteen or so, and 333 00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:07.920 when I started to make discoveries I was I first 334 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:10.359 started with research, not really thinking that I'd be able 335 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:12.480 to figure anything out beyond what's already been done, because 336 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:14.519 it's been out for sixty years and everyone's worked the 337 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:18.319 case to death. What could possibly be left Once I 338 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:20.759 started to realize that David Ferry had lied about everything, 339 00:23:20.839 --> 00:23:24.200 and that in the documents alone, just in the David 340 00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:27.119 Ferry file, from comparing his statements to what actually happened, 341 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:30.359 it becomes obvious he's lying, right, And so I don't 342 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:32.200 know if everyone was just stuck on the statements of 343 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:34.720 Regis Kennedy and the alleged alibi story that he gave 344 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:38.799 which is even he screws up when the FBI interviews 345 00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:41.119 David Ferry. He screws up his own alibi so bad, 346 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:44.079 and they just brush right over it, you know. So, 347 00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:47.400 and when you think that David Ferry was in Garrison's 348 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:50.400 office on Monday, held till Tuesday, and then talked to 349 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:53.319 by the FBI and the Secret Service, and they clear 350 00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:56.920 him like the guy's immaculate, Like he couldn't possibly have 351 00:23:56.920 --> 00:23:59.119 anything to do with this. How could they be so 352 00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:01.720 sure after one in a short interview with David Ferry? 353 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:07.480 It makes no sense. Here's an interesting connection. The first 354 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:12.680 person to visit David Ferry in jail was John Corporan. 355 00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:17.000 John Corporan was the guy who put Oswald on television 356 00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:24.119 on WDSU. So that that is interesting, isn't it very 357 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:28.160 interesting considering the series of events that got Oswald on television. 358 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:33.279 So that's a great story. I love that story because 359 00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:36.559 it's proof that it's proof the CIA was setting up Oswald. 360 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:39.279 The story started. It starts with, you know, when he's 361 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:42.480 out there handing out those flyers on Canal Street and 362 00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:44.920 then he ends up getting filmed and all that stuff. 363 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:50.920 That story came about because John corpor William Gaday is 364 00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:53.920 across the street in his building. William Gadday runs the 365 00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:55.920 Latin American Report, which is a straight up. He's a 366 00:24:55.920 --> 00:25:00.680 CIA employee and he runs Latin American propaganda add New Orleans, 367 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:04.680 and he sees Oswald out there. So what does he do. 368 00:25:05.079 --> 00:25:08.759 He calls Jesse Corr at the Trademark, who's an associate 369 00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:12.759 close associate at clay Shaw. Jesse Corr goes and sees Oswald. 370 00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:16.160 He calls John corporand John corporand sends out a news crew. 371 00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:18.759 They get Oswald on TV. Then they set up the 372 00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:24.960 interview that he's on television. And who was William goad 373 00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:32.359 Day's boss? It's Joandas Joanitas of jan Wave is his boss. 374 00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:35.359 And we know that Joandas was in New Orleans that 375 00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:38.319 summer right, So to me, this is pretty clear evidence 376 00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:42.480 the CIA intentionally got Oswald on television to help build 377 00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:44.599 the legend of Oswald the communists. 378 00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:50.319 So hmmm. You know what's so interesting too when we 379 00:25:50.359 --> 00:25:54.799 talk about oswalden that day and again your second book, 380 00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:59.240 which is called in black and White, Lee Harvey Oswald. 381 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.160 You know, I, you know, we could go back to 382 00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:06.119 the beginning of it we'd have to do another separate 383 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:11.000 show for that, because the story in itself about Oswald 384 00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:15.640 is just his humble beginnings to just everything that he'd 385 00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:18.880 went through. We could well, we'll talk about that another show, 386 00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:21.160 but I want to kind of stay on topic about 387 00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:26.640 what this whole thing is. You know, Oswald being involved. 388 00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:30.279 He wasn't involved. I mean, as the audience gets to 389 00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:33.680 know about you and your work, they'll begin to see 390 00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:38.119 that everything is not what it appears. But from a 391 00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:46.200 let's just say a surface level activity. You said that, 392 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.839 and I agree with this that the CIA, you know, 393 00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:57.039 had Oswald there doing the interview basically just to talk 394 00:26:57.079 --> 00:27:02.240 to the guy from New Orleans. Now, when that expunges 395 00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:04.960 out to the day of the assassination, a lot of 396 00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:08.359 people have the impression that they had already had this 397 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:11.720 thing pre coordinated about like what you mentioned that Perry Russo. 398 00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:15.599 It saw at the party, you know, where they had 399 00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:20.200 plans for Patsy, they had plans who would take the shot, this, this, 400 00:27:22.039 --> 00:27:27.599 that nature. So with the CIA's aspect in CIA's role 401 00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:31.519