1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,560 in crime. 14 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:39,079 Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:41,759 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 5: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. 16 00:00:43,359 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 17 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 5: We're joined today by Kathy Scott here to talk to 18 00:00:49,359 --> 00:00:53,759 us about and Rule, everybody's favorite true crime writer. 19 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,439 Speaker 3: Kathy, thank you for joining us today, My pleasure, Thank 20 00:00:57,479 --> 00:00:58,200 you for having me. 21 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:02,439 Speaker 5: I just mentioned an Rule is a name that is 22 00:01:02,479 --> 00:01:05,760 familiar to most people in the true crime space, and 23 00:01:06,079 --> 00:01:08,400 you've joined us today because you're working on a biography 24 00:01:08,439 --> 00:01:11,319 about her. Right now, so start by telling us why 25 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:12,959 you chose and rule. 26 00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 3: As your subject. I never go out and look for 27 00:01:16,719 --> 00:01:20,439 all topic of a book. All my books really their 28 00:01:20,599 --> 00:01:25,959 true crime, mostly about deaths, and they just come my way. 29 00:01:26,599 --> 00:01:29,959 But I got to know Anne when her attorney wanted 30 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,959 her attorneys contacted me after she filed the lawsuit against 31 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:38,000 the Seattle Weekly and to write an article because they 32 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:43,239 didn't think coverage was being done wasn't balanced in Seattle, 33 00:01:43,439 --> 00:01:46,280 and she was upset about it. She didn't like an 34 00:01:46,359 --> 00:01:50,359 article written by It's a complicated case, but she didn't 35 00:01:50,519 --> 00:01:54,239 like the article, but she especially didn't like the headline 36 00:01:54,599 --> 00:01:58,359 because it said her reporting was sloppy. So she stood 37 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,400 them for the word sloppy. And I asked her. I said, 38 00:02:02,519 --> 00:02:05,719 this is a weekly. It's not getting a lot and 39 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:08,719 it's a local weekly. It's not getting a lot of 40 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:14,000 coverage outside of Seattle. And if I write about it, 41 00:02:14,159 --> 00:02:17,360 you're going to be spreading it. And why did you 42 00:02:17,479 --> 00:02:19,759 just let it go? And she said no, I have 43 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,680 to preserve my name and they can't get away with it. 44 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,360 And I wrote about it, interviewed her attorneys, did a 45 00:02:27,479 --> 00:02:30,400 Q and A, and then I did a separate piece. 46 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,400 I write for Psychology Today periodically, and so I did 47 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,159 two more articles on her. So I did three articles 48 00:02:37,199 --> 00:02:40,319 before she died. And this was probably about three and 49 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,879 a half years before she died in twenty fifteen. The anniversary, 50 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,879 by the way, was two days ago. I've heard. Yeah. 51 00:02:49,319 --> 00:02:53,960 But we became friends. We talked and stuff, and then 52 00:02:56,479 --> 00:02:59,680 she wasn't as conventional as a writer as she appeared 53 00:02:59,719 --> 00:03:03,360 to be. So there were things about her that were 54 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,680 quite interesting, and I looked into different things and she 55 00:03:07,759 --> 00:03:12,039 became quite an interesting study. Plus we were friends, so 56 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,840 we chatted a lot. She she always called me her 57 00:03:14,879 --> 00:03:18,759 dog loving friend. But hell and I had planned to 58 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,400 go and see her with a mutual friend. We had 59 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,719 were in touch with Anne and we were it was 60 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,759 like three weeks before she died and we were all 61 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:31,479 set to go, and then she unfortunately died. But she's, 62 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,560 as I said, she's an interesting study. She wrote thirty 63 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,439 seven books. Thirty five one was I'm Not Fiction, and 64 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,400 thirty six were true crime, and thirty five were New 65 00:03:42,479 --> 00:03:47,879 York Times bestsellers. And so she she's interesting and there's 66 00:03:47,919 --> 00:03:50,400 a lot that people don't know about her that I 67 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,199 think I'm flashing out her story and they're going to 68 00:03:53,319 --> 00:03:57,080 know exactly who she was. She had such an impact 69 00:03:57,599 --> 00:04:01,240 on the two crime genre that it's worthy of a book. 70 00:04:02,639 --> 00:04:06,719 Speaker 2: Was she successful, by the way, in this lawsuit against 71 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,680 the paper that was saying her work was sloppy? 72 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 3: She was, Yet she lost and then and they said 73 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,480 that it wasn't that saying sloppy was not defamatory. I 74 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:25,040 think she sued for libelk and she of course appealed it. 75 00:04:25,879 --> 00:04:30,639 She losst again, and then there was another it's complicated 76 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,639 it in the book, but there's another suit that she 77 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:38,920 had filed now hadn't reconciled yet there was no decision, 78 00:04:39,199 --> 00:04:42,720 and then after her death, it too was dismissed. The 79 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,480 suit she filed against the paper were dismissed. The bad thing, 80 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,399 and I my heart goes out to her because of this. 81 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,639 The person who wrote the editor, he was a freelance editor, 82 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,560 and what he was writing about her sloppy reporting. He 83 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,480 called it. She wasn't a reporter, she didn't come from journalism. 84 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,000 She came from the tabloids. But he called it slapping reporting. 85 00:05:06,199 --> 00:05:14,519 And that's my dog's back breathing the background. Sorry, But 86 00:05:14,079 --> 00:05:18,480 the guy who wrote it, it was about a book 87 00:05:18,519 --> 00:05:21,639 Anne had written about a woman who had killed her husband, 88 00:05:22,079 --> 00:05:27,480 and she was her fiance. It was the Oregon case. 89 00:05:27,519 --> 00:05:30,759 It was in the Pacific Northwest, which Anne liked to 90 00:05:30,759 --> 00:05:34,680 write about. He was her fiance and a month or 91 00:05:34,759 --> 00:05:38,839 two after the story was published, he married her. So 92 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,360 he was just reamed and didn't know it at the time. 93 00:05:42,399 --> 00:05:44,879 But of course, and the paper did not know that 94 00:05:44,959 --> 00:05:48,000 he had a relationship with the woman who was featuring. 95 00:05:48,079 --> 00:05:51,519 And this was a feature story. It was a full length, 96 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,480 magazine size article. She didn't know that at the times, 97 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,959 so it really it's in her favorite but she didn't 98 00:05:58,959 --> 00:06:00,959 know it at the time, but really in her favor. 99 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,319 But it didn't help her because that was what the 100 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,560 suit was about. The suit was libels. 101 00:06:07,079 --> 00:06:10,959 Speaker 2: So he escaped, if you will, prevailed on the basis 102 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,439 of more of a free speech kind of thing. In 103 00:06:13,439 --> 00:06:16,560 other words, you can say her work was sloppy. 104 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 3: Freedom of the press exactly. 105 00:06:18,439 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 106 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 5: Wow, So I think that it is entirely possible that 107 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,920 people could have read Anne's books but not know about 108 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,879 her background as a Seattle police officer. Can you tell 109 00:06:32,959 --> 00:06:35,040 us a little bit about Anne's background. 110 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 3: Well, she had an uncle, a grandfather, a cousin, she 111 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,519 had maybe a couple of uncles and aunt who all 112 00:06:44,639 --> 00:06:47,040 were in law enforcement. I think there were five of them, 113 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:52,040 and that's in the book too. And all she wanted 114 00:06:52,079 --> 00:06:54,800 to do since she was five years old was she'd 115 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,000 here siren. Then she wanted to go out and see 116 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,879 what was going on perfect she wanted to be a 117 00:07:00,439 --> 00:07:05,519 So after she graduated from college, she immediately applied for 118 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,279 the She moved. She was born in Michigan, and her 119 00:07:09,319 --> 00:07:11,639 family moved around a lot, and then she ended up 120 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:16,160 transferring and cinnyshing her degree at the University of Washington. 121 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,920 Upon graduation, she immediately applied for position, but it was 122 00:07:20,959 --> 00:07:25,920 a woman's position. This was she graduated from high school 123 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,600 in forty nine, so she would have graduated college what 124 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,279 fifty three got out four years so she so nineteen 125 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,959 fifty three they had a woman's arm of the police department, 126 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:41,079 and they had a badge, no pistol, no billy klob, 127 00:07:41,439 --> 00:07:46,639 and they were more social workers than police officers. After 128 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,519 a year and a half, she had an eye test 129 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,199 because she was trying to transfer to become a real officer, 130 00:07:53,279 --> 00:07:56,079 and they had very few women at that time, and 131 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:01,360 she was deaned blind blind, so she couldn't get on 132 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,160 and that was and at the time though she so 133 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,000 at that point she got to know some homicide cops 134 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,439 and that sort of thing at the Seattle Police Department 135 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,759 and she started writing for the tabloids. She started writing. 136 00:08:15,839 --> 00:08:19,160 It took her a long time, took her gosh, three 137 00:08:19,279 --> 00:08:21,959 four years I think before she got anything published. But 138 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,800 once she hit the tabloids, that's why you have this story. 139 00:08:25,839 --> 00:08:27,639 As Annie used to describe it, you know, part of 140 00:08:27,639 --> 00:08:30,839 the story. She'd go to homicide, say hey, what stories 141 00:08:30,839 --> 00:08:33,320 are you working on? What crimes? And they tell her 142 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,240 whatever murders were going on, and then she'd add to 143 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,799 it and finish this story herself. And she got all 144 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,000 of those published and she was doing like three articles 145 00:08:44,039 --> 00:08:46,159 a week and she did that for several years. So 146 00:08:46,279 --> 00:08:49,639 that's where she learned to write. But she also had 147 00:08:49,639 --> 00:08:52,840 a little bit of prelance work early on as well. 148 00:08:53,039 --> 00:08:55,120 So Nat she always said it broke her heart to 149 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,039 leave the police department, but then she got to cover crime, 150 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,639 and I think that really fails her. But it wasn't 151 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,799 by design. She didn't choose to write about crime other 152 00:09:05,879 --> 00:09:09,679 than for the tabloids. She never planned to write a book. 153 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 2: Then how does that come about? Anne's first book? And 154 00:09:14,399 --> 00:09:16,759 many people think of it as a true crime classic. 155 00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:19,840 I think we both agree is The Stranger Beside Me? 156 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,840 Now we've talked about Ted Bundy on our podcast Mind 157 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,799 Over Murder here, but we don't want to focus too 158 00:09:26,879 --> 00:09:30,799 much on Bundy. But since he's such an integral part 159 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,679 of and story, do you mind telling us a little 160 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,000 bit about how she met him and how that prompted 161 00:09:38,039 --> 00:09:39,720 her to write The Stranger Beside Me? 162 00:09:40,759 --> 00:09:44,639 Speaker 3: Yell her husband became a teacher and she married, and 163 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,039 she had they had four kids, and the kids were 164 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,559 getting a little bit older, and this was like nineteen 165 00:09:49,639 --> 00:09:52,600 seventy four, and I think two kids were already out 166 00:09:52,639 --> 00:09:55,679 of the house by that time. She had four two boys, 167 00:09:55,720 --> 00:10:00,480 two girls, and her brother. And she always gives him 168 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:06,279 credit for her becoming an author. He committed suicide when 169 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,159 he was twenty one and a creet. It was very 170 00:10:09,159 --> 00:10:12,840 difficult for her, so she decided she had time, and 171 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:19,039 they had an opening at the Seattle Suicide Hotline and 172 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,879 she decided to volunteer there. And it was a night shift. 173 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,639 Her partner on the night shift one night a week, 174 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,159 and occasionally she would work. She'd do Sundays, but sometimes 175 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,240 she would do Tuesdays. So she worked with him for 176 00:10:32,519 --> 00:10:34,799 a year or so, almost a year and a half, 177 00:10:34,879 --> 00:10:37,759 I think, with Ted Bundy, and so there's time when 178 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,840 called are coming in. That is how she met Ted Bundy. 179 00:10:41,039 --> 00:10:44,360 And at some point while she was there, he became 180 00:10:44,399 --> 00:10:50,000 a suspect, but she would never accept that and it Yeah, 181 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:56,480 so she thus The Stranger Beside Me, and he was 182 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,000 fifteen years older than hers, so she was more of 183 00:11:01,039 --> 00:11:04,039 a big sister an aunt to him. 184 00:11:03,919 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 5: That I can't even wrap my head around. But what 185 00:11:09,399 --> 00:11:12,039 that does to somebody to realize that you have been 186 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:16,159 sitting next to a serial killer, working with them, talking 187 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,639 to them, and that they're just seemed like a normal 188 00:11:19,639 --> 00:11:21,759 person when in fact they've been doing the most deviant, 189 00:11:21,879 --> 00:11:22,519 terrible things. 190 00:11:22,519 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 3: You can imagine. 191 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 5: You were telling me off air something quite interesting, which 192 00:11:26,519 --> 00:11:28,519 is that The Stranger Beside Me was not a New 193 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,039 York Times bestseller when it first came out. I assumed 194 00:11:32,039 --> 00:11:34,600 it would have smashed every record there was. But you 195 00:11:34,639 --> 00:11:36,799 said it wasn't. 196 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,559 Speaker 3: True crime, especially a woman, and was there were very 197 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,840 few women writing true crime back then, and it was 198 00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:47,519 all men. Jack Olsen in Seattle. She knew him. He 199 00:11:47,759 --> 00:11:51,200 was a bid true crime author and he wrote I 200 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,720 think thirty one books. They knew each other. They weren't 201 00:11:53,759 --> 00:11:56,600 fond of each other though, that's a story in itself. 202 00:11:56,639 --> 00:12:01,240 But she paved the way for people like me my 203 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,600 first I was a police reporter for a long time, 204 00:12:04,759 --> 00:12:08,480 but my first book was The Killing of Tupac Shakur. 205 00:12:08,759 --> 00:12:11,120 And even that was a big deal for me to 206 00:12:11,159 --> 00:12:14,960 be the one who wrote it, because I remember someone saying, 207 00:12:15,039 --> 00:12:18,200 and it was published that who does she think she 208 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,679 is a middle aged white hole writing about Tupac Shakor 209 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:22,360 a black man. 210 00:12:22,639 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 2: Oh my god, as if that would disqualify you because 211 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:27,279 you were a white woman. 212 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 3: But good thing is, so I don't react to things 213 00:12:31,159 --> 00:12:33,279 like that. I tried to as a reporter. You have 214 00:12:33,399 --> 00:12:35,799 to have some thick skin. You guys probably know that. 215 00:12:36,759 --> 00:12:40,200 And so afterward, when the book came out, it was 216 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:44,759 a Los Angeles instant, Los Angeles Times bestseller. Oh sure, yeah, 217 00:12:44,879 --> 00:12:48,440 and so everyone. So it got a lot of kudos, 218 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,159 and so they respected the work because it was just 219 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,519 I laid out what happened because police weren't solving It's 220 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,480 the only reason I wrote it. And then Viggie Smalls 221 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,799 died and that became the second ones but really broke 222 00:13:00,879 --> 00:13:04,600 the ground for us and she so as she was 223 00:13:04,759 --> 00:13:08,519 a for US women. So when she was at the 224 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:13,799 hotline volunteering, she learned that he was a person who 225 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:19,480 interests became before he became the main suspect, there were 226 00:13:19,519 --> 00:13:22,360 a couple of others, but before he became the main one, 227 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:28,840 she completely denied it, didnet accept it, and kept in 228 00:13:28,919 --> 00:13:32,200 touch with him and at one point so her deal 229 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,360 was as soon as the story started. All that there 230 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,639 were stories out about missing women and women being murdered 231 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,759 at the University of Washington students and then in the 232 00:13:42,759 --> 00:13:46,159 Pacific Northwest. It spread out to a few other states 233 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:53,559 and Utah included, and she pitched a magazine story and 234 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,799 got an assignment, so he deal with She was going 235 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,559 to be writing an article about profiling the women who 236 00:13:59,639 --> 00:14:01,720 were missed, see and kill, and most of them at 237 00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:06,600 that point were found. And then as it became more 238 00:14:06,639 --> 00:14:11,799 and more murders and an agent contacted her, she contacted 239 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:14,519 the agent. I haven't been able to nail that down. 240 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,639 The agent's no longer with us either, And then anyway, 241 00:14:18,639 --> 00:14:21,840 they got in touch with each other and she wanted 242 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,159 to do a book. Wanted and to write a book, 243 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,039 but she said, I, you cannot do a book until 244 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,559 there's a suspect named. We need at least a name, 245 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:36,080 not a conviction or an arrest, just a name, and 246 00:14:36,159 --> 00:14:43,600 so she pursued. She lost track Ted for two years, 247 00:14:43,799 --> 00:14:49,960 so that agent was very patient and literary agent, and 248 00:14:50,039 --> 00:14:52,480 she lost track of him. And so there's been a 249 00:14:52,519 --> 00:14:54,799 little bit of criticism that she stayed in touch with 250 00:14:54,879 --> 00:14:57,679 him because of the book. But she did see in 251 00:14:57,759 --> 00:15:02,399 touch with him. She didn't come two terms with he 252 00:15:02,559 --> 00:15:05,000 really did it until she saw him on the stand 253 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,919 and he went off on an attorney and met when 254 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,039 it hit her really hard. And upon his conviction, of course, 255 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,559 and that's how she landed the book deal. And so 256 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,200 as soon as soon as he was named a suspect, 257 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,559 she contacted the editor and she started writing the books. 258 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,279 So she met I think the last time she met 259 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,039 with Ted was for three and a half hours, and 260 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,559 the police had him under surveillance, so that I heard 261 00:15:31,559 --> 00:15:34,279 every word they said. But she's at a restaurant in 262 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,840 Seattle and just picked his brain and she knew he 263 00:15:37,879 --> 00:15:40,279 was a suspect when he knew he was a suspect. 264 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,480 And she got quite a bit out of him, so 265 00:15:43,679 --> 00:15:46,320 there was no love lost. In the end, he was 266 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,840 and there's a netflix. Stephen Michel and his writing partner 267 00:15:50,919 --> 00:15:53,720 did it, and he wanted to even say her name 268 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,279 on air, so they referred to an older woman who 269 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,399 was a writer and that that once. So they didn't 270 00:16:00,399 --> 00:16:03,039 want to give her any ink, which I'd find fascinating. 271 00:16:03,759 --> 00:16:07,360 So for whatever reason he wasn't. Probably if you could, 272 00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:09,600 you know about her sharing the book with him. 273 00:16:11,039 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 2: Now tell us more though, because our listeners would love 274 00:16:13,919 --> 00:16:15,840 to hear this, because we obviously have a lot of 275 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:16,879 annual fans. 276 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 3: He was going to he wanted to write a book 277 00:16:20,039 --> 00:16:22,080 and he wanted to write it with her, and so 278 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,639 she said okay, And she says that and a stranger 279 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,720 beside me, but I go into more detail, but she 280 00:16:28,799 --> 00:16:32,679 said okay. And then so he was telling her stuff 281 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,720 and who knows how much of it was true because 282 00:16:35,759 --> 00:16:37,600 the man was crazy. 283 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, and an inveterate liar, so it was part of 284 00:16:41,879 --> 00:16:42,519 his makeup. 285 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, And so she and it was almost like the 286 00:16:46,279 --> 00:16:49,360 two of them were using each other. Yeah yeah, And 287 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,480 I could just say that out loud, but she she 288 00:16:52,639 --> 00:16:55,799 kept him going. And then when the and then she 289 00:16:55,919 --> 00:17:01,240 told him she'd pay him percentage and number one. As 290 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,759 journalists and as writers and books and authors, you don't 291 00:17:04,759 --> 00:17:09,039 pay for interviews. That's called because I'll spreset. They'll spre 292 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,240 set up for you better. You cannot as co check 293 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,319 book journal as in me them with an author, you 294 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:20,400 can't do it. But she so once she had enough 295 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,279 for the book that that three and a half hour 296 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,599 interview with him. It was Barcelona, something that was down. 297 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,640 The restaurant was in downtown Seattle. It's in the book, 298 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,319 and the cops were listening to every word. She had 299 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,799 enough and that's when she went to her She had 300 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,160 enough for a book, and that's when she went to 301 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,279 the agent and said, Okay, I'm done and she finished 302 00:17:44,319 --> 00:17:47,039 the book. And yeah, it wasn't because she was a woman, 303 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,880 I think, and she wasn't known other than if you 304 00:17:50,039 --> 00:17:53,799 read the tabloids in the Pacific Northwest. I don't think 305 00:17:53,839 --> 00:17:57,079 her stories went nationwide. You want to have known who 306 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,559 she was. And it was her seventh book that became 307 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,279 New York Times bestseller, and they did another edition, All 308 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,759 the Stranger Beside Me, and that became a bestseller. 309 00:18:08,799 --> 00:18:12,559 Speaker 2: Too. Interesting that as Kristen said not right out of 310 00:18:12,599 --> 00:18:15,519 the shoot. The Stranger Beside Me wasn't an instant hit 311 00:18:15,559 --> 00:18:17,319 when it was first published. 312 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 3: But it grew. It slowly grew because she wrote a 313 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:26,319 few books in between, and mostly about they were murders, 314 00:18:27,039 --> 00:18:29,559 but mostly in the Pacific Northwest. That's what she was 315 00:18:29,599 --> 00:18:32,759 looking for. I don't look for crimes. She was good 316 00:18:32,799 --> 00:18:35,920 at that, and she looked for it. I don't know. 317 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,400 If there's a big one it comes up. I may 318 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,119 have an agent or a publisher asked me to do it, 319 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,799 but for the most part, they I hear about it 320 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,200 and I become just one with the story, and you know, 321 00:18:49,319 --> 00:18:53,319 I have three in waiting to be done, Sophie, But yeah, 322 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,720 that's how I come about it. But it's an interesting 323 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,480 transversing how it all happened, and it came together quite 324 00:18:59,559 --> 00:19:04,279 nicely for her. So we had Caroline Frasier on a 325 00:19:04,319 --> 00:19:07,519 couple of weeks ago, and she was talking about the 326 00:19:07,559 --> 00:19:11,720 fact that the Pacific Northwest is overstuffed with serial killers 327 00:19:11,759 --> 00:19:14,000 and she's got her theories as to why that might be. 328 00:19:14,559 --> 00:19:17,400 So I imagine the dan Ruhl had quite a bit 329 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,400 of material to choose from. How did she ultimately decide 330 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,799 this is the next case. I'm reading my book on. 331 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,960 She would see newspaper clips she would get She read 332 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,519 the daily newspaper every single morning, at local news, and 333 00:19:33,599 --> 00:19:36,119 she would go through and she would clip, and then 334 00:19:36,319 --> 00:19:39,039 her readers, as her fan base as she called them, 335 00:19:39,279 --> 00:19:43,480 her fan base grew, or they called themselves, they would 336 00:19:43,519 --> 00:19:47,400 send her ideas as well. That mostly she was looking, 337 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,640 and she would she talked about that a lot, but 338 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:55,920 she was mostly looking for I don't do this. That 339 00:19:56,079 --> 00:19:59,519 she was mostly looking for attractive men, men who were 340 00:20:00,279 --> 00:20:03,440 nice looking, who were killers. She said she didn't want 341 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,640 to write about ugly men, that they weren't appealing, and 342 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,680 so she never went for the ugly ones, which I 343 00:20:08,799 --> 00:20:11,359 really find I find that fascinating. 344 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 2: Did she admit this publicly? 345 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,079 Speaker 3: Yes, she did. It's in her, it's in it's in her. 346 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,240 She said it a couple of She had a tendency. 347 00:20:19,799 --> 00:20:23,839 I got her off off track, I think tithfully. But 348 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,920 she had a tendency to be wrote. So she would 349 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,839 from energy to interview. It's just the same thing over 350 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,119 over you. You hear the same thing about Ted. You hear 351 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,839 the same thing about how I became, how I did it. 352 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,400 My thing was the glean the things that weren't said 353 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:44,599 five hundred times. It's easy to do when you're being interviewed. 354 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,319 Speaker 2: That she would go into some month almost autopilot. 355 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,279 Speaker 3: Really, yeah, really, sincerely, that's what they were. That was 356 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,480 interesting when I first noticed it, and I'm like, he 357 00:20:55,559 --> 00:20:57,640 did she say that before? And then it would the 358 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:02,200 oldest the same words literally word for word. But she 359 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,359 staid that a couple of times on some TV shows 360 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,640 that she didn't go for bad looking, she didn't go 361 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,000 for ugly killers, she went for the handsome ones. 362 00:21:11,279 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, did you ever challenge, as you said you 363 00:21:15,559 --> 00:21:19,640 became friends, did you ever challenge her on this that 364 00:21:19,799 --> 00:21:22,440 she was doing the same thing over and over again? 365 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 3: No, I don't think at that point. I don't think 366 00:21:26,759 --> 00:21:31,000 at that point what was that? Yeah, I don't think 367 00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:33,960 at that point that I was into the book that much. 368 00:21:34,039 --> 00:21:36,279 I did. I had written about her, so I had 369 00:21:36,319 --> 00:21:38,839 notes and I had done interviews on her, but I 370 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,839 wasn't at that point. I think, you know, maybe I'll 371 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,160 write a book about her at some point. It did happen, 372 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,319 But she was so interesting that it was when I 373 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:53,599 learned some oft to be in path things that made 374 00:21:53,599 --> 00:21:57,079 her so interesting. I think this was just I don't 375 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,720 know that she even realized. I think it became easy 376 00:21:59,799 --> 00:22:02,559 for her because energy is are work. You've got to 377 00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:05,000 get dressed up, you're under lights saying you've got to 378 00:22:05,039 --> 00:22:09,720 get there, and your questioned, and it's easy to just 379 00:22:09,759 --> 00:22:13,880 come out with the same things. I think because it 380 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,799 is it looks easy when that we go there, But 381 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,359 it's a job. I look at all of these things 382 00:22:18,839 --> 00:22:21,039 and this is fun. But I look at all the 383 00:22:21,319 --> 00:22:26,160 undressed in sweats and a dog is on my lap, 384 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:27,920 and I've got a lot of tangents to me. So 385 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,200 I'm quite comfortable and I'm own. But it is part 386 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,160 of the job, and it is you go under the 387 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,839 bright lights. I've done in a million times, and it 388 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,039 is work, and it's easy to go into. I've tried 389 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,160 into the automatic response. I've tried not to do that 390 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,960 because I don't want to be boring because I've said 391 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,559 the same thing. I don't think Anne was boring, but 392 00:22:48,599 --> 00:22:52,240 I think she got into the habit as the same responses. 393 00:22:52,079 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 2: And one of the challenges I think, and Kristin and 394 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,920 I have tried to freshen up our approach so that 395 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,240 we're not always asking the same questions and so on. 396 00:23:01,799 --> 00:23:04,960 But if you're being interviewed, which we both have been 397 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,880 in interview subjects a number of times, and they're asking 398 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:13,519 the same questions over and over again, the answers are 399 00:23:13,519 --> 00:23:16,559 going to be somewhat the same. If the questions are 400 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,799 the same questions you've heard dozens of times before. 401 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, with Tupac and Biggie Small's with those books. I do, 402 00:23:24,599 --> 00:23:29,720 especially Tupac. My gosh, when there was that recent arrest, 403 00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:32,720 I was on in three days. I was on like 404 00:23:32,799 --> 00:23:35,160 I can't even count the number of stations, right. We 405 00:23:35,519 --> 00:23:41,559 included three shows on CNN, every everything, and newspapers, and 406 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:48,799 so I tried to be fresh, not to just have 407 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,359 the same in because I did so many of them. 408 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,599 But also one thing I found when you are being 409 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,799 when you are being and you guys have probably found this, 410 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:02,359 when you are being interviewed, something will spark that you forgot, 411 00:24:02,839 --> 00:24:06,079 you amount insane and it freshens up. I don't intentionally, 412 00:24:06,279 --> 00:24:08,759 I don't memorize. I think about what I'm going to say. 413 00:24:09,039 --> 00:24:12,240 I do. They give me questions like you did in events, 414 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,640 but I don't memorize or say the same thing over 415 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,599 and over. I try to be in the moment, and 416 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,519 I but I think that you do. You probably do 417 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:26,079 say things differently and maybe add something or leave something 418 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,599 out at you when you're asked the same questions. I 419 00:24:28,599 --> 00:24:30,200 imagine you guys do that too. 420 00:24:32,759 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 421 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:43,000 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 422 00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:43,920 mindover Murder. 423 00:24:46,319 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 3: Let me ask you this. 424 00:24:47,519 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 5: Anne was obviously a She was absolutely paving the way 425 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,480 for women in the true crime space as writers and reporters. 426 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,319 Speaker 3: How else did she affect the true crime space? 427 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,599 Speaker 5: I know that she felt like it was important to 428 00:25:01,599 --> 00:25:04,480 be an advocate for victims of crime. Can you talk 429 00:25:04,519 --> 00:25:06,640 a little bit about what her life was like after 430 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,440 SEATTLEPD and in the midst of this sort of rise 431 00:25:09,519 --> 00:25:12,279 to fame as a true crime author. How important was 432 00:25:12,319 --> 00:25:15,279 it to her that she do some advocacy and make 433 00:25:15,319 --> 00:25:17,000 sure that the victims were represented. 434 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,839 Speaker 3: I don't think that happened in the beginning, and only 435 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,960 because there's there's been a lot of self set about it, 436 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:31,039 and she focused the Bundy book. She focuses on that 437 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,400 she originally started doing profiles on the Limit, but she 438 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,160 tet is the focus of that book. Sure, and then 439 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,039 her second book and the third book, and I think 440 00:25:40,279 --> 00:25:44,920 as she went alone, and there is something that happened. 441 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:46,839 I'm not going to share it, but there is something 442 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:52,559 that happened along that path that after that she really 443 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:57,119 started focusing on the victims and not the killers. And 444 00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,599 I think it was the true It's I think a 445 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,599 Nancy transition, But it was a transition because she was 446 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,279 new to the world of books and and new to 447 00:26:08,039 --> 00:26:11,640 really journalism writing, because she wrote for the tabloids where 448 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,519 half of it was made up, and she says about herself, 449 00:26:14,839 --> 00:26:16,920 she's filled in the blank. So you can't do that 450 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,759 in books. If it's true crime, it's true crime. You 451 00:26:20,759 --> 00:26:23,000 don't make up, you don't fill in the blank. So 452 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,119 I think for her she was still learning the process. 453 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,279 I've always said, the first book teaches you how to 454 00:26:29,279 --> 00:26:32,559 write the second one. You guys have written at least 455 00:26:32,559 --> 00:26:34,200 one of you have written that. Both of you have 456 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:34,880 written books. 457 00:26:35,039 --> 00:26:37,519 Speaker 2: We both have books in development. Let's put it that way. 458 00:26:37,519 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 3: Well, let's put it that way. Everybody's got a book 459 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,480 in them. That's it feels like it. Yeah, the first 460 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,680 book does teach you how to write the second one. 461 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,920 Although I came from journalism. So my first book there 462 00:26:49,279 --> 00:26:51,599 it was out, it's now out in third edition, The 463 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,960 Killing of Tupaksha Court. But it was very journalistic and 464 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,079 I had to jump and get out of the box 465 00:26:58,279 --> 00:27:01,160 and be more introspective and that sort of thing and 466 00:27:01,519 --> 00:27:06,640 diagnostic and whatever and analyze it. And I'm so much 467 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,559 better and I'm such a better writer now than not bragging, 468 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,119 but I am. You get better. 469 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 2: It's like interskill. 470 00:27:14,039 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 3: And writing is a skill, no doubt about it. The 471 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,799 more you do it, the better you get. And now, 472 00:27:19,839 --> 00:27:22,119 of course it's quite different for me. I get into 473 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,279 the sociology and psychology in my books as well. And 474 00:27:26,319 --> 00:27:28,680 Anne it is not out of that. She's in that too, 475 00:27:29,039 --> 00:27:32,960 but I think it's important as when we're interviewing people, 476 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,400 and especially someone who's a big name. She became I 477 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:42,720 also old word when she's got millions of followers, and 478 00:27:42,759 --> 00:27:46,920 that's and she's not just some writer out there who 479 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,240 wrote thirty six books. She became quite thirty seven. She 480 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,160 became quite quite an author and paid the path, as 481 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,920 I said, for the rest of us women. And I'm 482 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,119 here as a crime author because of her. I wanted 483 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:07,319 to ask canon Edna Buchanan wrote to get a chance 484 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,759 read it, and she's My understanding is Edna is in 485 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,960 and it is in hospice care. Now. She got to 486 00:28:14,039 --> 00:28:17,359 know Ann. She was a Miami police reporter. She is 487 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,039 the reason I became a police reporter. I read The 488 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,920 Corpse had a familiar face that you have to read 489 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,240 it one of the best books I've ever written. She 490 00:28:27,279 --> 00:28:31,000 goes to a crime scene and she knows the dead guy. Yeah, 491 00:28:31,039 --> 00:28:36,720 the Corps outed Jameilia Jays. Shewn assinating writer. And it's interesting. 492 00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:40,200 She and Anne thought to know each other and Cora 493 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,240 Edna is in aspice and I think she's God. She 494 00:28:44,359 --> 00:28:48,440 might be ninety, but she and I texted, not texted, 495 00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:53,079 but emailed back and forth. Early in my career, reached 496 00:28:53,119 --> 00:28:55,759 out to her. I also reached out to I reached 497 00:28:55,759 --> 00:28:59,000 out to Edna when I became a reporter. I reached 498 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,880 out to Anne in nineteen ninety six when I was 499 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,240 writing ninety seven. Tupac was killed in ninety six, so 500 00:29:05,359 --> 00:29:09,799 ninety seven when I got the contract, I reached out 501 00:29:09,839 --> 00:29:13,119 to Anne. So that was my first contact. I think 502 00:29:13,119 --> 00:29:18,519 it was an AOL chat room, but she was old school, yeah, 503 00:29:19,319 --> 00:29:22,799 back in the day, and she didn't remember me. But 504 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,240 she she had so many people in that chat room 505 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,279 and she still has diehard fans and they're dying too, 506 00:29:30,519 --> 00:29:32,880 They're dying to read the book. I'm not the only 507 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,160 one who's writing a book. I think find will be 508 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:36,319 the definitive one. 509 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 2: But oh, we hope so. 510 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 3: But her friend friend of hers, Anne another Anne, wrote 511 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,440 hot book that she's self published something but it was 512 00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:50,079 also was biographical, but it was also autobiographical. She wrote 513 00:29:50,079 --> 00:29:53,160 about herself quite a bit and probably a third of 514 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,880 it and the book and that was self published and 515 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,400 it came out a few months ago. And then Aunt, 516 00:29:58,519 --> 00:30:01,960 one of Vane's daughter's, is writing a biography of her 517 00:30:02,039 --> 00:30:05,480 brother and that is due out I think mid year, 518 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,400 mid mid year. Mine will probably mine will be after hers, 519 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,000 because she's ahead of me, I believe in the process. 520 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 2: Was Anne aware of the fact that you were also 521 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,240 working on this biography? 522 00:30:21,279 --> 00:30:26,319 Speaker 3: Now, I haven't started the biography when I interviewed her 523 00:30:26,799 --> 00:30:30,599 for the articles, right, three articles about her, and there 524 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,359 was there and I did say to myself, at some point, 525 00:30:36,559 --> 00:30:38,599 maybe I'll write a book. I was in the middle 526 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,640 of other projects, so maybe I'll write a biography of her. 527 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,200 Because I typically write about murders. But I have written 528 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,119 two dog books in the middle there. Yeah, I went 529 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,359 down to Hurricane Katrina, wrote Popkins of Katrina with a 530 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,680 rescue group. I went for two weeks two and a 531 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,640 half ways and stay for four and a half months, 532 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,279 allowed of New Orleans, and I love the people and 533 00:31:00,319 --> 00:31:03,200 I love their pets. And it took home my proofs 534 00:31:03,279 --> 00:31:07,759 long ear tool from Hurricane Katrina. And then a photographer 535 00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:12,000 I worked down with and during Hurricane Katrina because we 536 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,519 were all over the streets during the flat and it 537 00:31:14,599 --> 00:31:18,039 was quite quite something. And I was rescuing as well 538 00:31:18,079 --> 00:31:21,079 because there I was in the boat sent on the 539 00:31:21,119 --> 00:31:25,599 play toxic Land. And a photographer was a former marine 540 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,279 and he wanted to do a book of Marines and 541 00:31:29,319 --> 00:31:33,000 their service dogs, so we did Unconditional and their wounded 542 00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:36,720 warriors and their dogs. So those are my two offbeat bugs. 543 00:31:36,759 --> 00:31:37,200 So true. 544 00:31:38,039 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 2: But your dog Lever creeps through there in a big way. 545 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 3: Does I still rescue fourteen cats cross caught them across 546 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,640 my road because they would have been three hundred if 547 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,680 I hadn't done it. I still am involved in rescuing 548 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,440 it and hopefully small ways in the future. But if 549 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,359 something comes along, I do jumped in. 550 00:31:59,599 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 5: One of the things that I admire about and role 551 00:32:05,359 --> 00:32:11,799 is that she became an author in true crime, in 552 00:32:11,839 --> 00:32:16,920 a genre that is still very largely even today, populated 553 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:21,960 by men. So in what specific ways did Anne as 554 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,119 a female writer make her mark on the true crime genre. 555 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,319 Speaker 3: She made her mark in a lot of ways by 556 00:32:32,119 --> 00:32:38,160 ultimately painting the picture of the dictum higher profile in 557 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,039 her books. And we talked about that then the killers 558 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,880 and we'll say mail all, but she did write about 559 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,759 a couple of killer women. But I think she made 560 00:32:47,759 --> 00:32:51,720 her mark also because she became so big and she 561 00:32:51,799 --> 00:32:58,359 made herself available. She spoke before the Senate in what 562 00:32:58,519 --> 00:33:01,480 year was at eighteen nine? I think I just was 563 00:33:01,519 --> 00:33:05,079 finishing that chapter a couple of weeks ago. And she 564 00:33:05,559 --> 00:33:12,079 also was on a House committee for Victims of violent crimes. 565 00:33:12,119 --> 00:33:16,519 But she spoke before the Senate and it was a 566 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:22,000 serial killer task force, and she became part of that 567 00:33:22,319 --> 00:33:25,359 was to get into the mind of a serial killer, 568 00:33:25,559 --> 00:33:28,480 and so they interviewed her quite a length, went to Washington, 569 00:33:28,559 --> 00:33:30,720 d c. For that. That was quite a moment for her. 570 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,920 So I think she put herself out there, she made 571 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,240 herself available and with law enforcement and her. Everybody thinks 572 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,200 she was a cop for a long time. She wasn't. 573 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,440 It was a very short time that she came from 574 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:47,240 a family of police officers and her grandfather was a 575 00:33:47,279 --> 00:33:53,759 sheriff and want to colemb County, Michigan, and Anne with 576 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,160 stayed summers with her grandparents, and she lived in the 577 00:33:57,279 --> 00:33:59,160 jawn and she slept. 578 00:33:58,839 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 2: If you want, and what a weird thing to do. 579 00:34:03,599 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 3: It's not in the email cells because there were two 580 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,400 beds and two cells and they were right next to 581 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,920 the kitchen. So what Anne would do is she would help. 582 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,800 Her grandmother started doing this when she was a little kid, 583 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,360 and just her brother didn't go with her. And she 584 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,920 would spend summers with her grandparents. Every day she would 585 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,360 see the inmates. She would carry the trays and stick 586 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,159 them in the slots, and she got to know the inmates. 587 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:33,239 And one gallon there have been the book that has 588 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,159 the same thing in it. I already had that in 589 00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:37,920 my book as well. But her name was Viola. I 590 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,920 can't bind a viola anywhere, and all the things I've 591 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,239 gone through, so I don't know if her name was different. 592 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,840 I've looked at femail women during that era who stayed 593 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:55,519 in that Montreal County jail. So she and guess what 594 00:34:55,599 --> 00:34:59,679 magazine her grandfather liked, True Detective. True Detective. 595 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:05,039 Speaker 5: Oh gosh, i'spective out to child. 596 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,599 Speaker 3: So it's not so that tells me that's what led 597 00:35:08,599 --> 00:35:11,800 her to crime. This is and so the biggest thing 598 00:35:12,159 --> 00:35:14,519 I should say it, but I'm going to the biggest 599 00:35:14,559 --> 00:35:16,840 takeaway I get from it. She was not afraid of 600 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,599 criminals because she talked to them every day and she 601 00:35:20,639 --> 00:35:23,239 thought they were nice people of white Grandpa, Are they 602 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,239 in jail? What did they do? They seemed so nice? 603 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,800 And I think that I think that is the moment 604 00:35:31,519 --> 00:35:34,719 that sort of set her course in either law enforcement 605 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:40,599 or writing. But reading that such True Detective is quite fascinating. 606 00:35:41,639 --> 00:35:44,280 Speaker 2: Do you think she was trying to separate the crime 607 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,280 from the criminal in some way? 608 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,159 Speaker 3: I think she did that with Ted. I think she separated. 609 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,400 She had a very hard time wrapping her brain around 610 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,320 the fact that Ted was that she was to kill her. 611 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,599 She she knew it, but she really didn't want to 612 00:36:01,679 --> 00:36:04,000 accept it. And I don't know why. I've got my 613 00:36:04,079 --> 00:36:09,440 own suspicions. But she needed him, he needed her in 614 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,800 a lot of ways. She became which is really unusual 615 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,039 for a writer. She became the conduit between him and 616 00:36:17,079 --> 00:36:20,320 the homicide cops. She didn't want to be interviewed. They 617 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,679 wanted to interview him, and so he'd say he'd call 618 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,119 her up and say, can you ask the cops this question? 619 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,519 And she'd go and ask him, and she would give 620 00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:33,400 him the answer. So she was which is an unusual 621 00:36:33,519 --> 00:36:37,320 position to be. She begained part of the story and 622 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,760 they of course he was afraid, and then she was 623 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,000 still needed. She lost track of him, and she called 624 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,039 a homicide cop and asked him to look it up, 625 00:36:49,119 --> 00:36:52,039 and I'll give you the last name if you look 626 00:36:52,039 --> 00:36:55,079 it up for me, And so she provided them with Ted. 627 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,800 But she was nothing. She thought she was the only one, 628 00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,880 but she wasn't. She may have gone to her DEATHBEDKKI 629 00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:02,079 she was the only one. It wasn't. There were three 630 00:37:02,159 --> 00:37:05,400 or four other people, including his wide who called police 631 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,000 and turned him in, So it wasn't. She thought for 632 00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:11,599 years he had ignored they had ignored her tip. They 633 00:37:11,639 --> 00:37:14,440 did it because they already had his last name. And 634 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,320 then she said he didn't drivee a VW. So she 635 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,119 didn't think it was him, and they said absolutely, I 636 00:37:20,119 --> 00:37:22,480 looked him up. He dust drive it and that was 637 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,880 that was the Dave Reichert I think was the was 638 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,639 it cop? She the Dave Riker was in Utah. It 639 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,519 was another one to forget his last name. Now that 640 00:37:33,079 --> 00:37:35,760 she was friendly with the homicide because they were used 641 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,360 to seeing her because she would go in for the 642 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,159 stories for True Detective and so they all knew her. 643 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,239 She hung out with him, she liked him, had a 644 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:49,000 crush on one of them. So that's what I do. 645 00:37:49,159 --> 00:37:51,760 I look up details when I get into I get everything. 646 00:37:52,079 --> 00:37:54,599 Speaker 2: Here we are with the handsome men thing again. 647 00:37:54,679 --> 00:37:57,559 Speaker 3: Because yeah, so I got to know a lot of 648 00:37:57,599 --> 00:38:00,239 cops myself. You'd get you're on the beat. You do 649 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,960 have to keep up. You have to keep You can't 650 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,000 have relationships with the people you write about that you 651 00:38:07,039 --> 00:38:11,440 do become they call you, they become sources. They call 652 00:38:11,519 --> 00:38:14,280 you and you side a sources telling you something. And 653 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,000 I had lots of sources within all the police departments 654 00:38:18,119 --> 00:38:21,800 I covered, and that's part of the job. And they 655 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,199 were her sources as well. 656 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:28,639 Speaker 2: There's an intimacy there between a writer and a source, 657 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,480 and a lot of times things are shared off the record, 658 00:38:31,519 --> 00:38:36,079 which means essentially, we're keeping secrets here. Do you think 659 00:38:36,199 --> 00:38:41,159 that was part of this thing? She was very sympathetic 660 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,719 to police and law enforcement because she grew up in 661 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:49,840 a law enforcement family. But that intimacy, it almost sounds like, 662 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,239 even though there might not be a romantic or sexual 663 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,960 component to it, it's not a dating relationship, that there 664 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,199 was something to you that helped. 665 00:38:57,199 --> 00:39:02,760 Speaker 3: It would be that he was married, But go ahead. 666 00:39:04,079 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 2: It's interesting that she hoped it would be. 667 00:39:08,119 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 3: And it would have been. When you're writing a book 668 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:16,320 and you're covering it, you cannot cross that line. You 669 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,320 cannot and it's a fair boat and but it's just 670 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,920 absolutely not. You'll lose your job over it. And you 671 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:30,440 can't because then you become you can't you become sympathetic 672 00:39:30,559 --> 00:39:32,599 to the person or something. You can't. You have to 673 00:39:32,679 --> 00:39:35,880 keep your distance. You become friendly, and you joke a lot. 674 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,239 They tell dirty jokes, by the way, a lot. I 675 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,719 was standing with homicide cop once that crime scene and 676 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,000 he'd been murdered, so he set his trailer on fire. 677 00:39:45,199 --> 00:39:47,800 Was down in the desert near Lake Meat and I 678 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,400 was standing next to the homicide cop as they rolled 679 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,320 his body out right next to us, and he was charred, 680 00:39:54,079 --> 00:39:58,239 and the cop just verse out laughing that this is 681 00:39:58,559 --> 00:40:02,360 this was a homicide sergeant. He burst out laughing because 682 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,000 the big toe was sticking out, it wasn't covered, and 683 00:40:06,159 --> 00:40:08,800 he looked at it. And my thing is, I didn't 684 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,199 look at that as insensitive. I looked at that as 685 00:40:13,519 --> 00:40:17,079 this is a human being who was murdered and burnt 686 00:40:17,119 --> 00:40:20,440 to death. And that's how they keep their sanity if 687 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,920 they can. If you cry over every single one, I 688 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:25,840 think it would get to you. But to me, I 689 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,800 looked at him as it wasn't rude or anything. The 690 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,920 guy's dead, but I think that's his way of coping 691 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,280 with what they deal with every day. And you see 692 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,159 those you see those things, you're there, you're there, and 693 00:40:38,639 --> 00:40:41,079 a lot of those guys. Tupac Shakur, I gotta call 694 00:40:41,159 --> 00:40:44,679 it midnight or it happened eleven thirty, so it's about 695 00:40:44,679 --> 00:40:48,320 one am, no night. Hey, go down to the Las 696 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,159 Vegas Strip. It was onmside comp Go down the Las 697 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,000 Vegas Strip. The big rapper by the name of Tupac Shaker. 698 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,039 They couldn't even say his aim of gods before just 699 00:40:59,079 --> 00:41:02,800 got shaw and get so I just threw my clothes 700 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,480 and grabbed my notebook and my scanner and headed down. 701 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:07,679 I had a scanner at home. I had a scanner 702 00:41:07,679 --> 00:41:10,000 in my car and went at my in the newsroom 703 00:41:10,039 --> 00:41:13,000 at my desk. That so I was at the scene. 704 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,079 I was the only only reporter at the scene. And 705 00:41:16,079 --> 00:41:19,000 then I was at the hospital when he died. The 706 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,320 TV station was there, but no other print media. I 707 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:26,639 wrote the story in my notebook when that I was waiting, 708 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:28,960 there's a picture of me as Shug Night is walking by, 709 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,599 because people say, you weren't there. Now there's a photo 710 00:41:31,639 --> 00:41:35,639 of me that with the TV station and somebody took 711 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:37,800 his still of it at some point and posted it. 712 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:42,400 But ell and so I I waited for the doctor 713 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,239 to come out and give it. We all knew, but 714 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,079 we didn't. I didn't have it a family that I 715 00:41:49,159 --> 00:41:53,360 was with his rappers who rapped with him on stage. 716 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,960 It's just the saddest atmosphere. And I wrote in my 717 00:41:57,039 --> 00:42:00,519 notebook I called it in on the radio before cell phones. 718 00:42:00,559 --> 00:42:02,920 I called it in on the radio and we broke 719 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:08,719 the news that the newspaper afternoon paper, they held the 720 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,559 deadline and we broke lows that Tupakshakor had died and 721 00:42:13,079 --> 00:42:17,159 it was such a sad moment being there. But you can't. 722 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,480 I'd appro and I didn't approach some of the people. 723 00:42:20,559 --> 00:42:23,239 I saw his rappers crying and stuff, I didn't. I 724 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,320 approached him the next day, but I didn't do it 725 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,280 that day because it was because his mom came in. 726 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:33,000 They were still in town. They've held tons of people, 727 00:42:33,079 --> 00:42:35,280 went to the coroner's office, and they got it and 728 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,599 gone pretty fast out of out of Las Vegas because 729 00:42:38,639 --> 00:42:41,800 it was so high profile. Oo's dad. When you're doing it, 730 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,440 but you can't. I tear up sometimes that I tear 731 00:42:45,519 --> 00:42:48,840 up talking about it. But you can't become a part 732 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:53,079 of the story. You have to dislocate yourself from it. 733 00:42:53,119 --> 00:42:55,719 You have to separate yourself from it because you have 734 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,800 to be objective and that you do learn a lot 735 00:42:58,960 --> 00:42:59,840 from your sources. 736 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,039 Speaker 2: It almost sounds like you don't tap into the emotion 737 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,719 of it until sometimes later. 738 00:43:08,639 --> 00:43:12,119 Speaker 3: True I do. I interview, I knock on doors, I 739 00:43:12,159 --> 00:43:17,159 go interview victims, families, victims who are alive. I've done 740 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,480 that if that's part of the beat, when telephone them 741 00:43:20,599 --> 00:43:24,440 and catch them both guard But you I do go 742 00:43:24,519 --> 00:43:29,239 after the emotional side of it too. But I don't 743 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,719 become a part of the story myself, but I do 744 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,760 try to give the victim voice as well as the 745 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,239 families and that sort of thing. Some of them don't 746 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,000 want to talk that then they'll pick up the phone. 747 00:43:41,039 --> 00:43:43,280 I said, here's my number, to pick up the phone 748 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,400 and call me back or show up in the newsroom. 749 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,679 And because they do, you do. I always tell people 750 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,440 this is going to do. This is going to tell 751 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,559 people who your family member was and you it's a 752 00:43:56,559 --> 00:44:00,880 way of also keeping them their spirit a lot and 753 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,280 the same thing with the same thing with Anne. I 754 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,719 hope I did goodbye her shatted foibles. Everybody does that 755 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,039 for betting body of her rights about me. None of 756 00:44:09,119 --> 00:44:10,400 us live in glass houses. 757 00:44:11,199 --> 00:44:14,239 Speaker 5: But the fuck if you had to ultimately put into 758 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,800 words what you think Anne's legacy is in the true 759 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,039 crime space, what would you say is her legacy? 760 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 3: I think two things, Like I said before, paving the 761 00:44:26,039 --> 00:44:31,920 way for women writers. Also for being so prolific in 762 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,159 writing book after book, and she never tired from it. 763 00:44:35,199 --> 00:44:39,360 That was her job and she was just dedicated to it. 764 00:44:39,679 --> 00:44:43,400 The job came before everything else, And so you have 765 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,880 to give that to her, that she was a hard worker. 766 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,480 I think her body of work speaks for itself, and 767 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,719 also giving the victim voice, which I said wasn't immediate, 768 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,480 but eventually it was. She brought the women and men 769 00:44:58,519 --> 00:45:01,920 who were murdered to lie and more about them than 770 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,000 about the victims. But that was a dedeba. Took her 771 00:45:05,039 --> 00:45:06,159 a little bit to get. 772 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:10,800 Speaker 2: There, believe it or not. We're at fifty minutes, five 773 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:11,880 oh minutes. 774 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,840 Speaker 5: Okay, So Kathy tell us when the book is going 775 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,519 to be out, when can we pre order it and 776 00:45:18,639 --> 00:45:19,199 all sorts? 777 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:20,400 Speaker 3: And then what else are you. 778 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,480 Speaker 5: Working on right now? Or is the ann rule book 779 00:45:23,599 --> 00:45:26,960 the big focus? The annual book right now is the 780 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,960 big focus. But my agent is it's. 781 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,280 Speaker 3: A matter of going to I do have a publisher, 782 00:45:34,119 --> 00:45:37,280 a senior editor is with the Big Five. One of 783 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,760 the Big five publishers has asked to see it. So 784 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,440 that we're waiting on that, and I'm waiting for the 785 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,280 agent too. She was on vacation and she has a 786 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,320 proposal which has three chapters. Then it's forty pages long, 787 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:57,360 and so that in the meantime I'm writing, trying to 788 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:02,360 finish the chapters because it's twenty nine chapters. Because when 789 00:46:02,559 --> 00:46:05,639 I land the publisher. I'm going to begin in a 790 00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:09,159 contract that will give me a timeline and it could 791 00:46:09,199 --> 00:46:13,039 be six months, which I could be three months, could 792 00:46:13,039 --> 00:46:14,599 be longer, but I think they're going to want to 793 00:46:14,599 --> 00:46:16,719 get it out in a hurry. So that's why I'm 794 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:21,039 manically writing right now. I did cover the Crome. I 795 00:46:21,079 --> 00:46:23,840 did cover the mob when I was in Las Vegas. 796 00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,400 I love writing about the mob, and we all hated 797 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,920 she said, you would never write about the mob. Oh interesting, 798 00:46:30,119 --> 00:46:34,079 it's fascinating. And I'm going out with monsters. One who 799 00:46:34,159 --> 00:46:37,199 jumped out and is nail and hiding. But he I'm 800 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,599 very good friends with him and his wife. After the 801 00:46:39,679 --> 00:46:42,920 fact that he would he started calling me, you got 802 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:44,440 that wrong, You got that wrong. 803 00:46:44,519 --> 00:46:46,239 Speaker 2: This is what here's what really happened. 804 00:46:46,679 --> 00:46:49,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, he was there at all these meetings. Fat Herbie 805 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:54,280 Blitzteing was Tony's filatro who was spin Casino that story. 806 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,639 The fat Herby Blitzedeing was his right hand man, and 807 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,800 he was a man as well. And I was at 808 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:05,880 Herbabie Blitztein's murder scene and the only reporter there with 809 00:47:06,039 --> 00:47:08,920 a fellow reported from Las Vegas and where is writing. 810 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,880 So that is one of my next books and a 811 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,519 love writing about the mob, and you learn so much 812 00:47:15,519 --> 00:47:18,599 about it, especially the Las Vegas mob, which is gone now. 813 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:24,360 His murder shut down. The FBI went after he was 814 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,320 killed by the Buffalo and Los Angeles mafia. They call 815 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:34,199 them the Mickey Mouse mafia. That's what the I named him, 816 00:47:34,559 --> 00:47:38,280 but that the Mickey Mouse mafia. The LA Mob is gone, 817 00:47:38,599 --> 00:47:42,000 and that is a result of the task force. They 818 00:47:42,159 --> 00:47:45,639 stopped everything they were doing, focused on La and Buffalo 819 00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:50,119 because they worked together to get his rackets. Fat Herbie 820 00:47:50,119 --> 00:47:54,280 Blitztein and he was working out a Las Vegas and 821 00:47:55,239 --> 00:48:00,639 his murders shut down those two mob entities. Quite proud 822 00:48:00,679 --> 00:48:04,760 of the book, and it's the proposals all set to go, 823 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,400 lots of chapters. The book's almost done. And then there 824 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:14,199 were two awful murder murders in Lahoya Tory Pines of 825 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,000 two teenagers one and you may have seen them one 826 00:48:17,039 --> 00:48:22,000 in eighty four, I think the other three years later. 827 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,239 And I do have a proposal ready to go on 828 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,320 that too. And did I interviewed family. A lot of 829 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,679 them are gone. I know who did it and I 830 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,280 would will be revealing it in the book. They did 831 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,920 not name a killer and they interviewed him, but all 832 00:48:40,039 --> 00:48:43,039 evidence points to this one person, and I've got that 833 00:48:43,559 --> 00:48:46,760 one ready to go to if I get a I'd 834 00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:48,559 love to have a two book deal, but we'll see 835 00:48:48,559 --> 00:48:50,320 what happens. 836 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:55,840 Speaker 2: The Are you going to name a living suspect? 837 00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:58,360 Speaker 3: No, he's quite dead. 838 00:48:58,679 --> 00:49:00,599 Speaker 2: Ah okay, I was thinking. 839 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,039 Speaker 3: To myself he was a live but he was a lied. Yeah, 840 00:49:03,159 --> 00:49:07,599 hanged himself. He was alive when I first started covering 841 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:08,280 the crime. 842 00:49:09,119 --> 00:49:12,800 Speaker 2: Fascinating. You've got some incredible projects coming up. 843 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,440 Speaker 3: Thank you. Wow, I'll be on again and talk about 844 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:17,039 one of those. 845 00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:19,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, we would love to have you back. We'd love 846 00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:21,679 to hear about the mob for sure. That sounds like 847 00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,159 a lot of fun. But Kathy, thank you for joining 848 00:49:24,199 --> 00:49:26,239 us today. We really appreciate it and we will look 849 00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:27,360 forward to the book coming out. 850 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:29,440 Speaker 3: My Flangers. Thank you for having me. 851 00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:31,519 Speaker 5: That is going to do it for this episode of 852 00:49:31,519 --> 00:49:33,920 Mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll 853 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:34,760 see you next time. 854 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,559 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 855 00:49:49,599 --> 00:49:51,039 Another Dog Productions. 856 00:49:51,599 --> 00:49:54,920 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 857 00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,960 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 858 00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:00,400 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin Cloud. 859 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,840 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 860 00:50:05,639 --> 00:50:08,960 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 861 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,599 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 862 00:50:11,639 --> 00:50:13,480 Murders on Facebook. 863 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,280 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 864 00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:17,920 Bill Thomas. Five six. 865 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,519 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.