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<v Speaker 3>Actually do I have to say?

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<v Speaker 5>You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking

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<v Speaker 5>killers in true crime history and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 5>written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week,

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<v Speaker 5>another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous

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<v Speaker 5>kill there's in true crime history. True Murder with your host,

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<v Speaker 5>journalist and author Dan Zufanski.

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<v Speaker 6>Good evening today. You'd call Balentine suburban, but back then,

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<v Speaker 6>at the start of the summer of nineteen sixty six,

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<v Speaker 6>it was country, just a cluster of houses, some of

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<v Speaker 6>them shacks on or near Valentine Road in the town

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<v Speaker 6>of Cherlet, New York. And while June twenty fifth started

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<v Speaker 6>like any other day, it would end in a nightmare

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<v Speaker 6>in the devil at Genesee Junction. Veteran crime writer Michael

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<v Speaker 6>Benson returns to his formerly rural hometown to take on

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<v Speaker 6>the double homicide of his friends Kathy Bernhard and Georgie

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<v Speaker 6>Anne Formacola that took place that night. The two girls

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<v Speaker 6>were missing for a month and then found in the

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<v Speaker 6>bushes horribly mutilated. The double homicide changed the author's childhood

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<v Speaker 6>suddenly and drastically. He went from living in a rural

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<v Speaker 6>playland to being encased in fear, wondering who among them

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<v Speaker 6>was the werewolf who cut up Kathy in George Anne.

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<v Speaker 6>This hain'tus crime was never resolved and didn't go away

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<v Speaker 6>in recent years. The author is teamed up with a

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<v Speaker 6>victim's mum and a local private investigator to delve deep

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<v Speaker 6>into the June sixth, nineteen sixty six murders. Developing along

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<v Speaker 6>the way some strong new leads and shocking details. Together,

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<v Speaker 6>they have heated up the icy cold case, and their

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<v Speaker 6>investigation has led them in a startling new direction. The

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<v Speaker 6>book that we're featuring this evening is The Devil at

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<v Speaker 6>Genesee Junction with my special guest journalist and author Michael Benson.

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<v Speaker 6>Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much

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<v Speaker 6>for green to this's interview Michael Benson.

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<v Speaker 4>Thanks Dan Pleasure, Thank you very.

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<v Speaker 6>Much, Michael, and congratulations on what has to be one

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<v Speaker 6>of your most personal, if not your most personal books.

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<v Speaker 6>I'm sure and.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I was thinking about that. I mean, next to

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<v Speaker 4>raising two practically perfect kids, just maybe my proudest moment.

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<v Speaker 4>The book has literally been forty nine years in the making.

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<v Speaker 4>I started writing sections of it when I was twelve,

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<v Speaker 4>and those sections appear in the book, and I worked

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<v Speaker 4>on it oft and on until earlier this year, when

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<v Speaker 4>since then it's been a matter of getting it published.

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<v Speaker 4>And holy cal, I can't believe this is actually happening

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<v Speaker 4>after all this time.

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<v Speaker 6>Yes, it's really is. I know it's not really a

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<v Speaker 6>good description when they talk about it. It's part memoir.

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<v Speaker 6>It's just I think the greatest true crime and the

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<v Speaker 6>greatest nonfiction is when the author has the opportunity, or

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<v Speaker 6>it is the necessity, or the project just again necessitates

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<v Speaker 6>that the author is involved in the story. So I

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<v Speaker 6>think it's fascinating that you're so involved in this and

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<v Speaker 6>it becomes even a more profound story by Virtue.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, you know, it's like I didn't choose the subject.

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<v Speaker 4>It shows me, as she said, when I was nine

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<v Speaker 4>years old, George an Formacall. It was a friend of

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<v Speaker 4>mine and my babysitter. She was fourteen at the time.

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<v Speaker 4>She lived two houses away. She lived on a dirt

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<v Speaker 4>road with a field that led back to a creek

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<v Speaker 4>not far from the Genesee River. She and her friend

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<v Speaker 4>Kathy Bernhard, we also knew, lived a little bit down

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<v Speaker 4>the road. They went swimming in their two piece bathing suits.

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<v Speaker 4>George and Say's brand News. She bought it at the

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<v Speaker 4>mall just that day, and they went swimming in Black

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<v Speaker 4>Creek next to an ancient stone trestle which was originally

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<v Speaker 4>built back in the nineteenth century. There is a towpath

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<v Speaker 4>for mules to pull barges up the Genesee Valley Canal.

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<v Speaker 4>And this was in the town of chi Lai. Yeah, everybody,

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<v Speaker 4>everybody from out of town pronounced to the Chile. It's okay,

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<v Speaker 4>but it's Chilai and south of Rochester, New York, and

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<v Speaker 4>the spot was adjacent to the Genesee Junction, thus the title,

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<v Speaker 4>and that was where the Pennsylvania and New York Central

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<v Speaker 4>railroads crossed again, not far from the river, just east

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<v Speaker 4>of my dad's property. Back maybe in the nineteen twenties,

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<v Speaker 4>there was a little village there because that was where

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<v Speaker 4>passenger trains stopped and people transferred from going east west

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<v Speaker 4>to north south. But by nineteen sixty six it was

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<v Speaker 4>pretty much a ghost town back there. The train still ran,

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<v Speaker 4>but they were now freight trains, and there were maybe

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<v Speaker 4>two buildings back there today if you want, if you

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<v Speaker 4>went back to the Genesee Junction, it shows up as

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<v Speaker 4>a town on maps still, but you went back there,

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<v Speaker 4>you would find, you know, a path going through the weeds.

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<v Speaker 4>It was graduation night at local high school. It was

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<v Speaker 4>the first night of summer vacation. Then the girls went

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<v Speaker 4>back there carrying nothing but two towels and a transistor

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<v Speaker 4>radio and they never returned. Now, during the time the

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<v Speaker 4>girls were missing, some folks said that they just run off.

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<v Speaker 4>Experts from the Sheriff's office said they didn't think so,

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<v Speaker 4>because girls who run away almost always take clothes in

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<v Speaker 4>and makeup. The other theory was that they had drowned,

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<v Speaker 4>but that also seemed unlikely. You know, both of them

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<v Speaker 4>probably wouldn't drown, and they were excellent swimmers. And it

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<v Speaker 4>never it didn't occur to me as a little boy

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<v Speaker 4>that there was foul play involved. I just didn't think

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<v Speaker 4>that way at that age. Well, a month went by

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<v Speaker 4>and we kept waiting for the girls to be found,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, maybe with boyfriends off someplace. But after a

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<v Speaker 4>month long search, they were found by a farmer on

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<v Speaker 4>a tractor who was investigating an unpleasant smell the site

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<v Speaker 4>to the west of my dad's property. They disappeared on

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<v Speaker 4>one side of our land and were found on the other.

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<v Speaker 4>So I spent the rest of my childhood with the

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<v Speaker 4>knowledge that, you know, a very real boogeyman had walked

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<v Speaker 4>behind my house. I never looked out. I never looked

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<v Speaker 4>out a window at night again after that, because there

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<v Speaker 4>was too much of a chance that someone might be

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<v Speaker 4>looking back. The girl's remains were in bad shape. As

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<v Speaker 4>you said, it wasn't just from decomposition. They had been

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<v Speaker 4>knife to death and horribly mutilated in a manner that

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<v Speaker 4>civilized newspapers couldn't report at the time, although they handed

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<v Speaker 4>at it. The details which I later learned are in

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<v Speaker 4>the book. The sheriff told the press that they were

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<v Speaker 4>looking for a sex maniac. So you know, again, from

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<v Speaker 4>my nine year old perspective, I was learning about sex

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<v Speaker 4>crimes before I had learned about sex. But the sheriff

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<v Speaker 4>was right. Years later, when looking at suspects, I always

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<v Speaker 4>asked myself that question up front. It's this guy a

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<v Speaker 4>sex maniac, and some where some weren't, and if they weren't,

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<v Speaker 4>they tended to be crossed off the list. And you know,

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<v Speaker 4>as you noted that the murders had a terrible effect

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<v Speaker 4>on my neighborhood in my childhood, we were sad, of course,

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<v Speaker 4>but we were also terrified, you know, there was a

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<v Speaker 4>monster on the loose. I've been living in a rural paradise,

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<v Speaker 4>kind of a Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer type world,

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<v Speaker 4>barefoot kids running around dirt paths through the fields because

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<v Speaker 4>everybody took a bee line to each other's houses. And

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<v Speaker 4>as soon as the bodies were found, all those paths

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<v Speaker 4>grew over because kids who had been free to explore

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<v Speaker 4>the creek area and the railroad junction on the other

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<v Speaker 4>side were now kept on a short leash, never allowed

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<v Speaker 4>out of Mom's site. So the bottom line was I

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<v Speaker 4>grew up obsessed with the crime, and this may be

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<v Speaker 4>the reason why I became a true crime writer in

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<v Speaker 4>the first place. I don't think that's a coincidence at all.

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<v Speaker 4>And the crime was never solved, possibly until maybe the

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<v Speaker 4>very near future, but you know, we'll get to that.

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<v Speaker 4>During the nineteen nineties, when I was in my thirties,

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<v Speaker 4>I conducted my first investigation. At the time, I was

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<v Speaker 4>a magazine editor, not dealing with crime at all, but

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<v Speaker 4>with a little bit of knowledge of how the world worked,

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<v Speaker 4>and I became obsessed with true crime books. It was

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<v Speaker 4>a rather young genre at the time. I read them all,

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<v Speaker 4>I think, and I was looking forms that matched our case,

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<v Speaker 4>my case, and although I didn't know the precise details,

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<v Speaker 4>I knew that there was sexual mutilation involved, and so

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<v Speaker 4>I read them all. And the guy who fit the

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<v Speaker 4>bill closest initially was Arthur Shawcross. I'm sure your listeners

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<v Speaker 4>are familiar with him. He was a convicted serial convicted

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<v Speaker 4>serial killer of prostitutes in Rochester during the nineteen eighties.

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<v Speaker 4>There are a number of things about Shawcross's biography that

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<v Speaker 4>got my attention as a youth, he established a pattern

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<v Speaker 4>of traveling back roads by car, setting fires, and spending

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<v Speaker 4>lengthy times alone in the woods.

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<v Speaker 6>You know.

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<v Speaker 4>He turned twenty one years old in June of nineteen

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<v Speaker 4>sixty six, nineteen days before the girls disappeared, and during

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<v Speaker 4>that month he was floating around upstate New York looking

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<v Speaker 4>for a job. That's what he's This is according to him,

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<v Speaker 4>and as was his lifelong habit. When he was free.

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<v Speaker 4>He liked to park his car and wander along streams

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<v Speaker 4>and rivers looking for secluded places to fish. At least

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<v Speaker 4>that's what he called it. In nineteen seventy two, around

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<v Speaker 4>the time of his first two known murders, Shawcross's then

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<v Speaker 4>wife Pandy, said that he'd gone on dozens of fishing

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<v Speaker 4>trips during their time together, but he'd never once come

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<v Speaker 4>home with any fish. So Chawcross was sexually messed up

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<v Speaker 4>even as a youth, and he reportedly got a sexual

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<v Speaker 4>charge out of lighting fires. He'd done to prison once

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<v Speaker 4>for arson. He torched a factory in Watertown Factory Street,

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<v Speaker 4>creating more than a quarter million dollars of damage, and

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<v Speaker 4>in nineteen sixty six, he'd been on parole for just

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<v Speaker 4>over a year, he was expert with a knife. He

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<v Speaker 4>hunted deer he could dress game. Later he would talk

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<v Speaker 4>about wanting to kill a dough so that he could

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<v Speaker 4>use his hunting knife to remove the animal's vagina. One

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<v Speaker 4>of his jobs as a young adult was as an

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<v Speaker 4>apprentice butcher. He had mis rated animals in Adams, New York,

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<v Speaker 4>and he later boasted the for eighty five dollars a week.

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<v Speaker 4>He learned to slaughter nineteen thowsand bowls a day and until,

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<v Speaker 4>as he put it, the krick runs red. During the

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<v Speaker 4>summer of sixty six, due to his domestic woes, he

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<v Speaker 4>wasn't get along with his wife. He thought of himself

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<v Speaker 4>as a bachelor again, and he was rambling around. He

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<v Speaker 4>said that he did strange things that summer. He drove

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<v Speaker 4>around in a hot looking fifty eight pontiac, picked up

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<v Speaker 4>girls and had sex with them. He boasted, he couldn't

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<v Speaker 4>stop himself, which sounds like he's describing rape or some

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<v Speaker 4>sort of there was, you know, Romans and whatever it

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<v Speaker 4>is he's describing. There now Kathy and Georgiana spirit in June,

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<v Speaker 4>the values have found in July and in August, Shawcross

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<v Speaker 4>and his wife separated for good and eight months later

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<v Speaker 4>he was inducted into the army. He went to Vietnam

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<v Speaker 4>and came back telling horrific stories in which he killed

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<v Speaker 4>young females. But since they were in this again of quote,

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<v Speaker 4>Viet Kong chicks, they weren't really murders at all. They

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<v Speaker 4>were kills. You know. He was big a war hero.

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<v Speaker 4>And in one story, he happens upon two teenage girls

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<v Speaker 4>bathing nude in a stream, waist deep in water, and

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<v Speaker 4>he bragged, quote, they were both VC. I mutilated them.

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<v Speaker 4>After his Rochester arrest in nineteen eighty nine, he complained

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<v Speaker 4>that that mutilation murder of the two girls in Vietnam

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<v Speaker 4>haunted him most. Still, he considered his Vietnam kills his accomplishments,

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<v Speaker 4>his achievements. He used post traumatic stress syndrome from the

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<v Speaker 4>war as an excuse for his later murders. Now, his

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<v Speaker 4>war stories were horrific, and they were also apparently untrue.

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<v Speaker 4>According to his military records, he served two six month

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<v Speaker 4>tours as a supply and parts specialist and was honorably

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<v Speaker 4>discharged in April nineteen sixty nine. So he made those

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<v Speaker 4>stories up? Or did he? I mean, he was confessing

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<v Speaker 4>to something. I talked to psychologists, and they said, you know,

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00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:29.720
<v Speaker 4>he didn't make the stories are too detailed for them

248
00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:35.000
<v Speaker 4>to be completely imaginary. But he may have taken incidents

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00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:39.320
<v Speaker 4>that happened elsewhere and put them in Vietnam so that

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<v Speaker 4>his ego could deal with them. And he always blamed

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<v Speaker 4>the war on his later murders. He committed his later

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00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:52.679
<v Speaker 4>murders because of post traumatic stress. Now, during the eighties,

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<v Speaker 4>he murdered prostitutes and other vulnerable women in the street

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<v Speaker 4>by strangulations and dumped them near or in the two

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<v Speaker 4>Oynasee River, and several victims were mutilated post mortem in

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<v Speaker 4>a way identical to the mutilations found in My Girls

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<v Speaker 4>in nineteen sixty six. So a comparison of Shawcross's behavior

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<v Speaker 4>and that of the Genesee Junction killer was compelling, and

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<v Speaker 4>so much though that in nineteen ninety nine, armed with

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<v Speaker 4>my knowledge of Shawcross and my limited knowledge of what

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<v Speaker 4>had happened to Kathy and George An, because the papers

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<v Speaker 4>didn't print it and police wouldn't talk to me, I

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<v Speaker 4>sent a written summary of my findings to the Monroe

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<v Speaker 4>County Sheriff's Office Criminal Investigation Division, spoke with a detective

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<v Speaker 4>sergeant there, who apparently was pretty impressed with the letter

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<v Speaker 4>I sent, and I pretty much laid it out just

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<v Speaker 4>as I laid it out for you. And they sent

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<v Speaker 4>a team of interrogators to the Sullivan County Correctional Facility

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<v Speaker 4>and asked Shawcross point blank if he knew anything about

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<v Speaker 4>Kathy and Georgia Anne. And Shawcross put his chin on

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<v Speaker 4>his chest, closed his eyes, all his hands in the fists,

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<v Speaker 4>and refused to discuss it. I was told that it

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<v Speaker 4>was the same reaction his interrogators got when they asked

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<v Speaker 4>him questions about his mother. It was a standard response

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<v Speaker 4>to what he considered a tough question. Now, sergeant told

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<v Speaker 4>me that was all he could do, couldn't discuss it

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<v Speaker 4>any further details because the case was still open. And

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<v Speaker 4>I thanked him and he hung up, and for a

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<v Speaker 4>time I felt great. I had, by proxy anyway got

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<v Speaker 4>me in the shop across the space and confronted his

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00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:28.519
<v Speaker 4>entire ecosystem. He'd had a chance to deny that he

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00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:33.279
<v Speaker 4>was the Genesee junction killer, and he'd refused, And that

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00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:38.039
<v Speaker 4>was about it for my nineteen nineties investigation. I knew

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<v Speaker 4>that I couldn't come to a conclusion about who killed

285
00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:43.679
<v Speaker 4>the girls, though until I knew more about the initial

286
00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:47.679
<v Speaker 4>nineteen sixty six investigation by the Sheriff's office. But how

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00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:51.879
<v Speaker 4>to do that? So exactly we skip We skip ahead

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00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:54.360
<v Speaker 4>to the first decade of the twenty first century, and

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00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:58.399
<v Speaker 4>I'm looking at the crime from all angles, and I

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00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:02.799
<v Speaker 4>came across an interesting thing, a conspiracy theory that I

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00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:05.440
<v Speaker 4>still find somewhat difficult to ignore. I still find the

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<v Speaker 4>Shawcross evidence difficult to ignore. It's my philosophy that you

293
00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:12.839
<v Speaker 4>don't have to believe in conspiracy theories to enjoy a

294
00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:15.079
<v Speaker 4>good one. And this is the one I developed for

295
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:19.880
<v Speaker 4>this case. It started during the early days of my

296
00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:25.799
<v Speaker 4>true crime career and I read this excerpt from a

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00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:30.440
<v Speaker 4>called the Satanic Bible, and it goes, Satanic Age is

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00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:34.160
<v Speaker 4>last one four hundred and fifty eight years. The last

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<v Speaker 4>one where God was on top and Satan was cast

300
00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:43.240
<v Speaker 4>down started in eighty fiveh eight. Consequently, the new Satanic

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<v Speaker 4>Age began in nineteen sixty six, and this time Satan

302
00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:51.720
<v Speaker 4>is on top. Nineteen sixty six is year one an

303
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<v Speaker 4>Ol Satanas, the first year of the reign of Satan.

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<v Speaker 4>And those words were written by Anton Leavey, founder of

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<v Speaker 4>the Church of Satan right now. The original title of

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00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:06.200
<v Speaker 4>this book was six slash sixty six because the murder

307
00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:08.559
<v Speaker 4>took place in June of nineteen sixty six and it's

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00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:11.839
<v Speaker 4>the Devil's number, but that was mixed by the publisher

309
00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.480
<v Speaker 4>because numerals mess up search engines and make the book

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00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:19.119
<v Speaker 4>difficult to alphabetize. So we went with the devil a

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<v Speaker 4>Genese junction, which I also liked very much, and we

312
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:25.880
<v Speaker 4>put the number of the beast in the subtitle. So anyway,

313
00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:29.599
<v Speaker 4>that's getting out of order. Going back to my original

314
00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:34.079
<v Speaker 4>discovery of this, I figured if there was Satanic significance

315
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<v Speaker 4>to the month and year of the murders, you know,

316
00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:40.000
<v Speaker 4>six slash sixty six had meaning, then the proximity to

317
00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:43.559
<v Speaker 4>the Summer Solstice had meaning as well, because that's a

318
00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:50.440
<v Speaker 4>Satanic holiday. The next Black holiday after Summer Solstice would

319
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<v Speaker 4>feature Satan Goncore, and that turned out to be Lamas

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<v Speaker 4>Day August first, nineteen sixty six, which was the day

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<v Speaker 4>Charles Whitman climbed to the top of the University of

322
00:19:01.880 --> 00:19:06.319
<v Speaker 4>Texas Tower in Austin and using a sniper rifle, killed

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<v Speaker 4>sixteen people and will get thirty two others. People think

324
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<v Speaker 4>of Columbine. I think as the event that made school

325
00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:16.039
<v Speaker 4>spree killing a thing, but it actually happened years earlier

326
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<v Speaker 4>in Texas. After Lama's Day came all hollow z nineteen

327
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<v Speaker 4>sixty six, and that was when beautiful co ed Cherry

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<v Speaker 4>Joe Bates was knife to death on the campus of

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<v Speaker 4>Riverside Community College in Riverside, California. She was eighteen in

330
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<v Speaker 4>a freshman and later a note apparently from the killer

331
00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:38.920
<v Speaker 4>was found written on a desk in the college library.

332
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<v Speaker 4>Now today because of compelling handwriting comparisons and a letter

333
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<v Speaker 4>received by the press years later in which the purported

334
00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:52.400
<v Speaker 4>killer referred to doing his thing in Riverside, the murder

335
00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:54.880
<v Speaker 4>of Cherry Joe Bates is fought by many to have

336
00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:59.000
<v Speaker 4>been one of the first murders committed by Northern California's

337
00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:03.319
<v Speaker 4>notorious Odiac Killer. So you know Holy Cow year one

338
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<v Speaker 4>ono Satanas? Indeed, Anton LaVey caius your chills, the guy

339
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<v Speaker 4>who proclaimed nineteen sixty six is that year. Anton LaVey

340
00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:18.680
<v Speaker 4>his biography will you know you gave even more goosebumps.

341
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<v Speaker 4>He was the first to publicly list the Satanic holidays,

342
00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:29.079
<v Speaker 4>which he admittedly stole from Wicca, and although no one

343
00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:37.079
<v Speaker 4>has accused LaVey of participating in ritual abuse or human sacrifices. No,

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00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:41.400
<v Speaker 4>we're not so sure about his followers. There certainly could

345
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<v Speaker 4>have been those who read his book and took the

346
00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:48.920
<v Speaker 4>symbolism to heart. Some of LaVey's disciples might have just

347
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:52.839
<v Speaker 4>been used full experimenters and kids, being backy and weird,

348
00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:56.440
<v Speaker 4>rebels against everything, contrarians who stood up when they were

349
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<v Speaker 4>told to sit down. And for them, you know, upside

350
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<v Speaker 4>down crosses, anything goes, attitude, you know, there's like catnip

351
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<v Speaker 4>to cats. Some you know, they were vain. They dressed

352
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<v Speaker 4>up in God fashion. They like they dressed like Wednesday

353
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<v Speaker 4>Adams of the Adam's family.

354
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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, and they.

355
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:18.000
<v Speaker 4>Had little plays and ceremonies in black masses. As far

356
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<v Speaker 4>as I could tell, you know, no one ever got hurt,

357
00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:26.519
<v Speaker 4>but they were. They were into that. Their slogan was

358
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<v Speaker 4>do as South Wilt, which means whatever you want to

359
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:37.880
<v Speaker 4>do goes. So it's uh so, Well, here's the fact.

360
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<v Speaker 4>Hundreds of homicides each year can be deemed satanically or

361
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<v Speaker 4>ritually inspired, and yet in the cases that have been solved,

362
00:21:46.119 --> 00:21:48.799
<v Speaker 4>the perpetrators have rarely turned out to be members of

363
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<v Speaker 4>any organized devil worshiping cult. But Richard Ramirez, the knight Stalker,

364
00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:56.119
<v Speaker 4>he drew pentagrams on his hand. He said tail Satan

365
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.359
<v Speaker 4>at the scenes of his murders, but turned out to

366
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<v Speaker 4>be alone, not not a member of any group. The

367
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<v Speaker 4>closest link, that is, the least degrees of separation between

368
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<v Speaker 4>Levey and actual Mayhem, came in San Francisco during the

369
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<v Speaker 4>summer of nineteen sixty six, even as Monroe County Sheriff's

370
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<v Speaker 4>Office deputies are looking for George and Cathy. At that time,

371
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<v Speaker 4>Leavey produced a witch's review. It was sort of a

372
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<v Speaker 4>vaudeville cabaret show for the devil were worshiping set and

373
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<v Speaker 4>performing as a topless vampire. In the show is Susan Atkins,

374
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<v Speaker 4>who later becomes notorious. Is Sexy Sady of the Charles

375
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<v Speaker 4>Manson family, probably through the person who killed Sharon Tate.

376
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<v Speaker 4>Bobby Bouselet, another Manson family member, was also co starred

377
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<v Speaker 4>with LaVey in a theater production of a It was

378
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<v Speaker 4>called Invocation of My Demon Brother, written by Kenneth Anger,

379
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<v Speaker 4>who later had a best selling called Hollywood Babylon. So

380
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<v Speaker 4>that brings us to twenty eleven, and this is when

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<v Speaker 4>my investigation really took off. So you know, we've got

382
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:18.000
<v Speaker 4>a little sip of coffee. In June of twenty eleven,

383
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<v Speaker 4>two events came together, you know, almost magically, now I

384
00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:27.440
<v Speaker 4>think about it. Kathy Bernhard as a mom was still

385
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<v Speaker 4>around Alice, and she was a friend of my mother,

386
00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:34.359
<v Speaker 4>and they were at a party and the ladies are

387
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<v Speaker 4>sitting in lawn chairs under a tree, and Alice Bernhard

388
00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:40.039
<v Speaker 4>says to my mother, you know it's too bad your

389
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<v Speaker 4>Michael can't write a book about my Kathy Wow died.

390
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:49.359
<v Speaker 4>My mom hadn't even gotten around telling me that yet.

391
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<v Speaker 4>When on the anniversary of the girl's disappearance, I changed

392
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:57.279
<v Speaker 4>my Facebook status to a little bit moreium for Georgiana

393
00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:00.759
<v Speaker 4>and Kathy, And one response as I got from that,

394
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:05.640
<v Speaker 4>came from a Bernhard family friend, Ebbie Douglas, who said,

395
00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:09.160
<v Speaker 4>I should really call Alice. She would definitely be interested

396
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:11.920
<v Speaker 4>in speaking with me. So the bottom line is Alton

397
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:14.359
<v Speaker 4>and I partnered up. She said, bring me something to

398
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:18.480
<v Speaker 4>sign and I'll sign it. So she signed documents making

399
00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:24.319
<v Speaker 4>me the family investigator and authorized me to see the

400
00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:27.839
<v Speaker 4>police files from the initial investigation in nineteen sixty six.

401
00:24:28.759 --> 00:24:33.079
<v Speaker 4>Now I should know here that things were different then

402
00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:38.440
<v Speaker 4>maybe I'm maybe not. But because the crime was so horrible,

403
00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:42.480
<v Speaker 4>nobody ever told Alice exactly what it was that had

404
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:49.039
<v Speaker 4>happened to Kathy. Wow, they gave her saidatives and here

405
00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:53.440
<v Speaker 4>it was forty some years later. Excuse me, and she's

406
00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:56.000
<v Speaker 4>still she spent all this time wondering, you know what

407
00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:00.920
<v Speaker 4>what happened back there? Yep, she's read the newspapers. But

408
00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:04.079
<v Speaker 4>the newspapers refused to print details. She asked the police.

409
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:05.880
<v Speaker 4>They said, no, no, no, it's better than you don't know.

410
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:12.279
<v Speaker 6>Michael, excuse Michael. What didn't your mother say? And you

411
00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:15.599
<v Speaker 6>write in a book that your mother had some inside

412
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:18.440
<v Speaker 6>information and you were told something about that mutilation. Weren't

413
00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:19.480
<v Speaker 6>you of of of Georgia.

414
00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:24.440
<v Speaker 4>Yes, so that is true. I had to. I had

415
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:29.960
<v Speaker 4>information from the neighbor lady who had come down to

416
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.279
<v Speaker 4>talk to my mom and dad, and I listened through

417
00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:37.240
<v Speaker 4>the front window of our house, and the word I

418
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:41.559
<v Speaker 4>got was that, and I'm I'm sorry, I'm not going

419
00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:43.880
<v Speaker 4>to give it a direct quote that what she said

420
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:47.839
<v Speaker 4>was Georgian's tits had been cut off, and that was

421
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:52.440
<v Speaker 4>that was what I knew, although that turns out to

422
00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:58.519
<v Speaker 4>be the only part of the story. But no, but

423
00:25:58.599 --> 00:26:04.200
<v Speaker 4>nobody had told now. Yeah, So I said, also, I promise,

424
00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:06.160
<v Speaker 4>you know, if I find out anything, I'm going to

425
00:26:06.200 --> 00:26:09.079
<v Speaker 4>tell you everything I learned, and I'm going to treat

426
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:10.799
<v Speaker 4>you like a grown up. And she says, you know,

427
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:12.680
<v Speaker 4>I don't care how bad it is, it's going to

428
00:26:12.759 --> 00:26:20.759
<v Speaker 4>be better than wondering. So I told her that I

429
00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:22.759
<v Speaker 4>would write a book, just as she'd ask my mom

430
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:27.200
<v Speaker 4>if I could find a publisher. But I wasn't promising

431
00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:29.720
<v Speaker 4>anything because I had no reason to think that a

432
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:34.599
<v Speaker 4>publisher would be interested. I would investigate on her, behalf

433
00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:38.680
<v Speaker 4>for free, for as long as it took. And she

434
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:42.640
<v Speaker 4>said fine, And she told me the point like that,

435
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:47.599
<v Speaker 4>there are two things I want you to do for me. First,

436
00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:50.720
<v Speaker 4>you know, find out what happened to Kathy. And I

437
00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:53.799
<v Speaker 4>don't think she meant who did it. I think she

438
00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:56.720
<v Speaker 4>meant what happened you know what they did to her?

439
00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:00.319
<v Speaker 4>And the other one was to get people to think

440
00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:04.000
<v Speaker 4>about Kathy, because she was a girl who has forgotten

441
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:07.039
<v Speaker 4>the way too soon. And I said, I will sure

442
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:09.440
<v Speaker 4>do that for you. So every time I ever talked

443
00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:12.640
<v Speaker 4>to anybody interviewed anyone, I said, you think to Kathy today,

444
00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:15.319
<v Speaker 4>I'm still putting it on Facebook today. We're thinking about

445
00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:19.160
<v Speaker 4>Kathy Bernhard. And so now that the book comes out,

446
00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:21.960
<v Speaker 4>I called Alice the other day and I said, you know,

447
00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:26.720
<v Speaker 4>now people are going to be thinking about Katy forever. Yeah.

448
00:27:27.160 --> 00:27:29.440
<v Speaker 4>I think she was pleased, and she was very pleased.

449
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:36.559
<v Speaker 4>So what we did. First thing we did is we

450
00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:41.240
<v Speaker 4>put Alice on local news and she did great. She

451
00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:46.160
<v Speaker 4>was interviewed by reporter Caroline Tucker, and she talked about

452
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:50.359
<v Speaker 4>Kathy when she was alive and how she disappeared, and

453
00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:55.279
<v Speaker 4>she said, you know, if anybody knows anything, called Michael.

454
00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:02.880
<v Speaker 4>And what we received in response was a series of

455
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:05.920
<v Speaker 4>women now in their late fifties, but who were ten

456
00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:08.079
<v Speaker 4>to twelve years old at the time of the murders,

457
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:14.119
<v Speaker 4>who had disturbingly similar stories, almost identical stories, and stories

458
00:28:14.119 --> 00:28:17.880
<v Speaker 4>that had absolutely nothing to do with Arthur Shacross. They

459
00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:20.640
<v Speaker 4>told of being attacked by a monster in the neighborhood.

460
00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:25.680
<v Speaker 4>They were told by him that if they squealed, they

461
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:29.240
<v Speaker 4>would be killed, and some of them had kept it

462
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:31.240
<v Speaker 4>a secret for all those years and were telling the

463
00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:34.640
<v Speaker 4>story to me for the very first time, which again

464
00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:42.519
<v Speaker 4>pretty chilling. Now one was attacked by the monster while

465
00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:47.160
<v Speaker 4>one of the monster's brothers stood by and was lookout.

466
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:49.440
<v Speaker 4>And this was back by Black Creek, not far from

467
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:54.599
<v Speaker 4>where our murder victims were last seen over where they

468
00:28:54.599 --> 00:28:57.720
<v Speaker 4>were heading at the time of their disappearance. One had

469
00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:00.640
<v Speaker 4>a nice hell to his throat. Another was victim of

470
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:06.319
<v Speaker 4>a home invasion. Now, the original investigation, I learned, had

471
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:09.279
<v Speaker 4>interviewed the adults in the area and they talked to

472
00:29:09.799 --> 00:29:13.720
<v Speaker 4>the friends of the victims, who were mostly teenagers. But

473
00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:16.920
<v Speaker 4>the children of the neighborhood were never spoken to, and

474
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:19.640
<v Speaker 4>as it turned out, they were the ones who knew

475
00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:23.240
<v Speaker 4>who the monster was. I'm so glad I was a

476
00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:27.480
<v Speaker 4>boy because all of the little girls, all of the

477
00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:33.079
<v Speaker 4>girls on my street, had been raped and we were

478
00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:37.920
<v Speaker 4>a turn road of four houses. Now the investigation gathered

479
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:42.240
<v Speaker 4>momentum when I talked to private investigator Don Tubban. He'd

480
00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:45.480
<v Speaker 4>gone to school with Kathy and Georgian. He graduated on

481
00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:48.960
<v Speaker 4>the night that the girls disappeared. He'd spent years as

482
00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:51.599
<v Speaker 4>a local town cop. In fact, we met for the

483
00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:53.839
<v Speaker 4>first time when he was a town cop and I

484
00:29:53.960 --> 00:30:01.400
<v Speaker 4>was an underage teenager. Drinking beer behind the town railroad depot. Okay,

485
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:07.680
<v Speaker 4>initial an initial meeting wasn't friendly, but we're good friends now.

486
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:11.880
<v Speaker 4>And Tupham later worked as a state investigator, and he

487
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:14.640
<v Speaker 4>became a private investigator, and he agreed to help with

488
00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:18.720
<v Speaker 4>the investigation for free because if Alice had no money

489
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:21.839
<v Speaker 4>and who knew if the project was ever going to

490
00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:25.440
<v Speaker 4>generate any income. And he became a stalwart locator and

491
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:29.200
<v Speaker 4>examiner of witnesses, had other help. I'm going to give

492
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:32.519
<v Speaker 4>you a list of names now, Don Campbell, Tom Weist,

493
00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:36.799
<v Speaker 4>Amy minster Hood, act, Mary Anne Shils, Paul Johnson, Jerry Warren,

494
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:41.240
<v Speaker 4>Phillip Semraw. They all put in long hours taking photos,

495
00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:44.160
<v Speaker 4>digging out facts, some of them a half century barried.

496
00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:47.680
<v Speaker 4>So during the course of the twenty eleven investigation, I

497
00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:50.319
<v Speaker 4>was asked repeatedly if I was writing a book about

498
00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:53.680
<v Speaker 4>the case, and people think I just write them and

499
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:56.759
<v Speaker 4>they magically appear in the bookstore. And I told the truth.

500
00:30:56.759 --> 00:30:58.160
<v Speaker 4>I said, I'd love to write a book about this.

501
00:30:58.240 --> 00:30:59.799
<v Speaker 4>He Alice wants me to write a book about this,

502
00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:03.559
<v Speaker 4>but I have no reason to believe that anyone would

503
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:06.759
<v Speaker 4>ever publish it, because I've talked to a lot of

504
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:10.880
<v Speaker 4>editors in the publishing world, and had been told that

505
00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:13.160
<v Speaker 4>the case had none of the things that publishers like.

506
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:17.960
<v Speaker 4>It wasn't recent, wasn't neatly resolved, the victims were not

507
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:22.319
<v Speaker 4>rich and beautiful. And when I told those I interviewed

508
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:24.200
<v Speaker 4>that I didn't think there'd ever be a book, I

509
00:31:24.279 --> 00:31:28.519
<v Speaker 4>was being sincere, although you know, we certainly wanted that

510
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:31.519
<v Speaker 4>to happen. I'm saying that because I think there might

511
00:31:31.559 --> 00:31:34.960
<v Speaker 4>be an attitude from some people I spoke to that

512
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:37.279
<v Speaker 4>you said there wasn't going to be a book. If

513
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:38.319
<v Speaker 4>I'd know there was going to be a book, I

514
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:41.039
<v Speaker 4>would I wouldn't have talked to you. And you know, sorry,

515
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:45.799
<v Speaker 4>it's just how it things important. And did those people

516
00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:47.839
<v Speaker 4>have their names changed in the book anyway? It's like

517
00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:52.359
<v Speaker 4>I did my best not to embarrass anybody. So the

518
00:31:52.359 --> 00:31:55.680
<v Speaker 4>final piece of the puzzle was the publisher Roman and Littlefield,

519
00:31:56.400 --> 00:32:00.240
<v Speaker 4>which looked at the book proposals differently from any other publisher.

520
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:04.200
<v Speaker 4>Catherine Canegie there, to her credit, saw the manuscript not

521
00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:06.400
<v Speaker 4>as a true crime book at all, but as a

522
00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:10.720
<v Speaker 4>memoir my story as it related to the murders. And

523
00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:13.839
<v Speaker 4>I'm certainly not sure I agree holy with that characterization.

524
00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:17.400
<v Speaker 4>But I didn't argue the point because they said they

525
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:22.640
<v Speaker 4>would publish the book, and I said, okay. Now, because

526
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:25.920
<v Speaker 4>it was not published as a cheap paperback, it costs

527
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:27.960
<v Speaker 4>a little bit more than my previous true crime books.

528
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:30.359
<v Speaker 4>I'm really sorry about that. But it's also a much

529
00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:35.519
<v Speaker 4>classier package, hardcover, beautiful photo photo by Philip Samra, designed

530
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:39.279
<v Speaker 4>by my daughter. And one thing's for certain, I can't wait.

531
00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:43.599
<v Speaker 4>I can't wait to hand the copy to Alice. She

532
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:46.039
<v Speaker 4>had wanted reader Bension's Michael to write a book about

533
00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:52.079
<v Speaker 4>Alice Bernhardt's Kathy, and together we made that wish come true.

534
00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:55.759
<v Speaker 6>What we didn't talk about and you do have this

535
00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:58.400
<v Speaker 6>in the book, and it's very very profound. So is

536
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:02.160
<v Speaker 6>that you really and again this is the value of

537
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:03.960
<v Speaker 6>this book as well for all those people that are

538
00:33:03.960 --> 00:33:07.039
<v Speaker 6>fans of your books. For the first time they really

539
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:11.359
<v Speaker 6>get inside your childhood and you examine how profound this

540
00:33:12.039 --> 00:33:15.200
<v Speaker 6>disappearance and this murder is of your basically your next

541
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:18.119
<v Speaker 6>door neighbor, George Anne. And even though you were younger

542
00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:22.880
<v Speaker 6>by four years, four or five years, there was this

543
00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:26.440
<v Speaker 6>profound effect on you. And so you include a lot

544
00:33:26.519 --> 00:33:29.240
<v Speaker 6>of the things in there that's growing up in this little,

545
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:34.160
<v Speaker 6>very peaceful and innocent time and place, and then everything

546
00:33:34.279 --> 00:33:38.119
<v Speaker 6>changed and the relationship you had with George Anne was

547
00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:42.920
<v Speaker 6>very odd. And then now a culmination comes full circle

548
00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:48.519
<v Speaker 6>where you're presenting very good evidence on who may have

549
00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:52.839
<v Speaker 6>killed these young women at that time. One thing that

550
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:54.160
<v Speaker 6>you also included.

551
00:33:54.640 --> 00:34:00.440
<v Speaker 3>Okay Brown two, name something that's not boring Monday a

552
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:03.039
<v Speaker 3>book club, computer solitaire?

553
00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:07.920
<v Speaker 2>Huh oh, sorry, we were looking for chumbu casino.

554
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:09.760
<v Speaker 4>Um.

555
00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:13.119
<v Speaker 2>That's right, chumbucasino dot com as over one hundred casino

556
00:34:13.159 --> 00:34:15.320
<v Speaker 2>style games joined today and the play for free for

557
00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:21.599
<v Speaker 2>your chance to redeem some serious prizes. Chum chumbucasino dot com.

558
00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:26.320
<v Speaker 6>I guess I think it's important, and you were talking

559
00:34:26.360 --> 00:34:30.960
<v Speaker 6>about satanic and ritualistic murders, is that at the three

560
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:35.760
<v Speaker 6>hours before Georgia Ann and uh Kathy were found that

561
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:37.719
<v Speaker 6>there was a dog slid open. So maybe you can

562
00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:42.800
<v Speaker 6>tell us about that well and what the Mulligan woman said.

563
00:34:42.880 --> 00:34:46.440
<v Speaker 6>Mulligan Wilson said about that once she saw that dog

564
00:34:46.519 --> 00:34:48.519
<v Speaker 6>slid open, I think it was very important.

565
00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:53.320
<v Speaker 4>Right. That's a woman we're referring to in the book

566
00:34:53.400 --> 00:34:59.079
<v Speaker 4>as Francine Wilson. She and her two kid brothers are

567
00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:04.280
<v Speaker 4>going for dog out. The dog has gone out do

568
00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:08.239
<v Speaker 4>its thing and hasn't come back. And they go walking

569
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:11.079
<v Speaker 4>out and they get to the railroad tracks that separated

570
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:14.719
<v Speaker 4>their house from ours, and that would be the Pennsylvania Railroad,

571
00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:19.079
<v Speaker 4>you know, one half of the Genesee junction. And she

572
00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:22.199
<v Speaker 4>spots the dog lying on the railroad tracks and she

573
00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:25.280
<v Speaker 4>tells her little brothers to go run home. And she

574
00:35:25.400 --> 00:35:27.519
<v Speaker 4>figured that the dog had been hit by a train.

575
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.440
<v Speaker 4>But when she went to see she realized that it

576
00:35:31.480 --> 00:35:35.039
<v Speaker 4>was much worse. That the dog had been slit and

577
00:35:35.079 --> 00:35:40.480
<v Speaker 4>its entrails had been pulled out. Kick her here is

578
00:35:40.599 --> 00:35:48.920
<v Speaker 4>that she is the wife of the monster. Yeah, and

579
00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:54.119
<v Speaker 4>you know, holy cow, Arthur Shawcross didn't care about you know,

580
00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:59.000
<v Speaker 4>Francine's dog. And the other suspects I'll discuss they didn't

581
00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:03.199
<v Speaker 4>care about francine dog. But if this is a message

582
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:08.360
<v Speaker 4>to keep your mouth shut from her husband, who's a

583
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:12.320
<v Speaker 4>dirt bag and a half, then it was very effective.

584
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:19.840
<v Speaker 4>Because the although the guy who we like best appeared

585
00:36:20.039 --> 00:36:25.039
<v Speaker 4>on the sheriff's suspect list, he'd been alibied by his wife,

586
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:28.320
<v Speaker 4>the very woman whose dog had been killed. She's not

587
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:29.679
<v Speaker 4>alibying him anymore.

588
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:41.440
<v Speaker 6>There was some witness testimony from some picnickers around that

589
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:45.679
<v Speaker 6>area at that time that evening. And of course you

590
00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:50.920
<v Speaker 6>as an investigative journalist and along with your with Tubman

591
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:53.599
<v Speaker 6>the private investigator, you have to look at everything and

592
00:36:53.639 --> 00:36:57.679
<v Speaker 6>eliminate everybody before you can zero in on anyone. So

593
00:36:57.679 --> 00:36:59.239
<v Speaker 6>there's also that process so.

594
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:03.840
<v Speaker 4>That there is no shortage of suspects. I mean, what

595
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:08.760
<v Speaker 4>we found was this horrible cluster of pedophiles in my neighborhood,

596
00:37:09.079 --> 00:37:11.079
<v Speaker 4>and it was it was a poor neighborhood. My dad

597
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:14.519
<v Speaker 4>had he was an insurance adjuster and we lived in

598
00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:16.440
<v Speaker 4>the city of Rochester and he'd wanted to move to

599
00:37:16.519 --> 00:37:19.039
<v Speaker 4>the country and have a little catch of land. He

600
00:37:19.159 --> 00:37:21.519
<v Speaker 4>knew nothing about where he was moving in terms of

601
00:37:21.320 --> 00:37:26.119
<v Speaker 4>the demographics, but it was a poor area that only

602
00:37:26.159 --> 00:37:30.119
<v Speaker 4>recently had been inhabitable because the Mount Morris Dam had

603
00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:33.039
<v Speaker 4>been filled, had been built, and before that the land

604
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:37.480
<v Speaker 4>flooded and you couldn't live there. So the first people

605
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:42.320
<v Speaker 4>to move in were almost experiments to see if make

606
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:46.000
<v Speaker 4>sure nobody drowned when the spring melt came. And then

607
00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:49.440
<v Speaker 4>when that was determined that that didn't happen. Other people

608
00:37:49.639 --> 00:37:52.360
<v Speaker 4>well better means moved in. But there were you know,

609
00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:57.039
<v Speaker 4>there were lots of shacks with without houses. And just

610
00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:02.800
<v Speaker 4>in on Kathy Street, I think we counted five different

611
00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:07.920
<v Speaker 4>men who had histories of being sex criminals. They were

612
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:16.559
<v Speaker 4>either you know, exposers or child rapists or just generally

613
00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:21.239
<v Speaker 4>pervy guys. It's a it's a little little bit scary again,

614
00:38:21.480 --> 00:38:24.800
<v Speaker 4>you know, wow, Glad, I'm a boy.

615
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:33.440
<v Speaker 6>Yeah. So in that regard, when with the when I

616
00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:37.239
<v Speaker 6>mentioned about the picnicker and that eyewitness testimony, who did

617
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:40.960
<v Speaker 6>that lead to in terms of for the police. And

618
00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:44.239
<v Speaker 6>again you talk about in the book about bloodhound searches

619
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:49.000
<v Speaker 6>and then house to house searches in uh Scottsville, I believe,

620
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:50.800
<v Speaker 6>and Vanattine.

621
00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:54.719
<v Speaker 4>So yet the initial suspect was a fellow. But then

622
00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:58.800
<v Speaker 4>they were calling Jack Star. And I'm changing these things

623
00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:03.079
<v Speaker 4>to protect the families, not the guys, right, because I

624
00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:07.960
<v Speaker 4>got cooperation from brothers and kids and generally the families

625
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:11.239
<v Speaker 4>of these people helped a lot, but I don't want

626
00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:14.679
<v Speaker 4>them to necessarily get the notoriety that they don't deserve.

627
00:39:15.079 --> 00:39:18.559
<v Speaker 4>So we're calling him Jack Star. And he was George

628
00:39:18.559 --> 00:39:21.920
<v Speaker 4>Anne's boyfriend, and he's been seen with george Anne and

629
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:24.400
<v Speaker 4>Kathy back by the swimming hall just a few hours

630
00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:28.079
<v Speaker 4>before their disappearance. Now, the thing that the complicating factor

631
00:39:28.119 --> 00:39:30.960
<v Speaker 4>here that I haven't brought up yet is that when

632
00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:38.239
<v Speaker 4>george Anne was thirteen years old, she became pregnant and

633
00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:40.679
<v Speaker 4>she had a child. Child was put up for adoption,

634
00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:46.599
<v Speaker 4>and it was generally assumed that Jack Star was the father.

635
00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:54.119
<v Speaker 4>But during our investigation we learned that, first of all,

636
00:39:55.039 --> 00:39:58.079
<v Speaker 4>you know, the monster who's named in the book is

637
00:39:58.119 --> 00:40:02.360
<v Speaker 4>Clint Wilson had been, you know, growing up and down

638
00:40:02.360 --> 00:40:09.320
<v Speaker 4>the road, raping every adolescent female who didn't have a

639
00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:14.760
<v Speaker 4>dad with a loaded shotgun pointed at him. He had

640
00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:18.679
<v Speaker 4>he had raped the neighbor of Kathy. He had raped

641
00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:24.639
<v Speaker 4>the girl who lived between me and Georgia Anne. Georgianne's

642
00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:28.599
<v Speaker 4>older sister had called the Rochester police saying that he

643
00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:33.480
<v Speaker 4>had raped her and Georgia Anne, at thirteen became pregnant.

644
00:40:35.239 --> 00:40:39.639
<v Speaker 4>We're assuming there's a connection there, and what we found

645
00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:45.679
<v Speaker 4>out we talked to a boy who who wasn't Georgianne's boyfriend,

646
00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:48.639
<v Speaker 4>but it was her coffee down a friend of hers,

647
00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:53.760
<v Speaker 4>and he said that Georgie Anne had told him that

648
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:56.880
<v Speaker 4>she told her mother that Jack Style was the father

649
00:40:56.960 --> 00:41:00.800
<v Speaker 4>of her baby. But she has lied. And it occurs

650
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:02.800
<v Speaker 4>to me, the thirteen year old girl who has been

651
00:41:03.320 --> 00:41:09.159
<v Speaker 4>raped by a married man who threatened to kill her

652
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:13.519
<v Speaker 4>if she told has a dilemma. What does she do?

653
00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:17.599
<v Speaker 4>And I think what she might have done, what she

654
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:21.000
<v Speaker 4>might have found a boy in the neighborhood. She liked Jack,

655
00:41:21.639 --> 00:41:24.800
<v Speaker 4>who came from a comparatively well to do family. He

656
00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:28.519
<v Speaker 4>drove a corvette, he was twenty years old, had an

657
00:41:28.519 --> 00:41:32.960
<v Speaker 4>affair with him, and then told him that he was

658
00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:36.280
<v Speaker 4>the father of her baby, and he believed her, and

659
00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:39.599
<v Speaker 4>there was talk. I think they wanted to get married,

660
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:46.119
<v Speaker 4>but Georgian's parents forbid it. So again we've got a

661
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:49.519
<v Speaker 4>scenario where it's all pointing in the same direction.

662
00:41:53.719 --> 00:42:00.199
<v Speaker 6>Now, with your investigation, how do you proceed and are

663
00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:03.800
<v Speaker 6>the people that you interview and you alluded to a

664
00:42:03.800 --> 00:42:06.039
<v Speaker 6>few of the people that you're getting information from, like

665
00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:10.559
<v Speaker 6>Clint Wilson's wife, tell us under the circumstances why she

666
00:42:10.599 --> 00:42:14.400
<v Speaker 6>would say something contrary to what she said and provided

667
00:42:14.440 --> 00:42:17.840
<v Speaker 6>for as an alibi for her husband. Tell us those

668
00:42:17.840 --> 00:42:21.360
<v Speaker 6>circumstances that she would have changed her tune and given

669
00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:22.239
<v Speaker 6>you different information.

670
00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:27.000
<v Speaker 4>Well, I think that well, first of all, yeah, I

671
00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:32.719
<v Speaker 4>kind of know how to give spoilers, Okay, but she

672
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:35.000
<v Speaker 4>was she was in a situation where she was no

673
00:42:35.079 --> 00:42:38.840
<v Speaker 4>longer afraid of Clinton. Because if Clint's holding, you know,

674
00:42:38.920 --> 00:42:43.360
<v Speaker 4>a knife to the little girls while he's raping them, he's

675
00:42:43.400 --> 00:42:47.360
<v Speaker 4>probably got his wife terrified as well. I think that's

676
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:50.039
<v Speaker 4>that's a pretty good assumption. And we know that she's

677
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:52.440
<v Speaker 4>called the cops saying that he was trying to drown her,

678
00:42:52.719 --> 00:42:56.760
<v Speaker 4>and she at one point tried to drive his motorcycle

679
00:42:56.920 --> 00:43:03.760
<v Speaker 4>off of Scottsville Road, but she missed him. So she's

680
00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:07.480
<v Speaker 4>afraid of him and wants to kill him. And now

681
00:43:07.480 --> 00:43:09.800
<v Speaker 4>she's in a situation where she's not afraid of him anymore.

682
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:16.000
<v Speaker 4>And she says, well, he could have done it, which

683
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:21.920
<v Speaker 4>means to me that when she told the sheriff that

684
00:43:23.159 --> 00:43:32.119
<v Speaker 4>he was with her that evening, she lied. Yeah.

685
00:43:32.679 --> 00:43:36.960
<v Speaker 6>God, in terms of you, you you talk about signature

686
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:40.519
<v Speaker 6>in this book, and when you talk about Arthur Shawcross,

687
00:43:40.519 --> 00:43:45.119
<v Speaker 6>you're talking about a very unique type of serial killer.

688
00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:48.400
<v Speaker 6>And with this case, we didn't get into too much

689
00:43:48.440 --> 00:43:50.840
<v Speaker 6>graphic detail. We alluded to it so people can use

690
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:55.199
<v Speaker 6>their imagination. You did mention a couple of things. Why

691
00:43:55.320 --> 00:43:59.000
<v Speaker 6>is it that you think that that that level of mutilation,

692
00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:04.280
<v Speaker 6>which is unusual is can be associated with Wilson.

693
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:11.480
<v Speaker 4>Wow, there is no reason. The only thing I can

694
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:20.079
<v Speaker 4>say is that what we have here is a well

695
00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:31.320
<v Speaker 4>if the family where they are competitively sick. Ah Clip's father,

696
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:38.760
<v Speaker 4>in the last month of his life raped a five

697
00:44:38.840 --> 00:44:45.920
<v Speaker 4>year old girl and the judge said, I'm going to

698
00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:48.400
<v Speaker 4>let you go, and you can no longer be alone

699
00:44:48.440 --> 00:44:53.320
<v Speaker 4>with the girl unless her parents are with her. And

700
00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:57.320
<v Speaker 4>this just just strikes me as absurd, is bizarre, and

701
00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:00.320
<v Speaker 4>the only way it makes any sense is if they're

702
00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:03.719
<v Speaker 4>all living in the same house, which means that you know,

703
00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:11.360
<v Speaker 4>he's probably lived his granddaughter, and before more than a

704
00:45:11.360 --> 00:45:15.239
<v Speaker 4>couple of weeks can go buy, he dies unexpectedly on

705
00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:19.880
<v Speaker 4>his daughter's kitchen floor, where we don't know what the

706
00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:23.320
<v Speaker 4>cause of death was. What we do know is unexpected

707
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:28.960
<v Speaker 4>sens a care of itself. Yeah. Also, Clint's brothers, some

708
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:32.239
<v Speaker 4>of them, not all of them, had been in trouble

709
00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:37.000
<v Speaker 4>for sect with these cases. None of them ever went

710
00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:41.199
<v Speaker 4>to trial because in every single case, the victim refused

711
00:45:41.199 --> 00:45:49.480
<v Speaker 4>to testify against them. Clint clint Our Clint. He also

712
00:45:49.679 --> 00:45:53.679
<v Speaker 4>has an incident in his life in which he and

713
00:45:53.880 --> 00:45:59.880
<v Speaker 4>we know this to be true, rapes his own granddaughter,

714
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:02.599
<v Speaker 4>which makes, you know, talk about a chip off the

715
00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:08.039
<v Speaker 4>old block, something had in common with Dad. And you

716
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:11.480
<v Speaker 4>know that that also leads to two bad things happening

717
00:46:11.519 --> 00:46:14.840
<v Speaker 4>to Clinton. So we what we have here is is,

718
00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:23.119
<v Speaker 4>you know, a brood of evil. And of course some

719
00:46:23.199 --> 00:46:24.920
<v Speaker 4>of the family turned out fine, and I don't want

720
00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:27.239
<v Speaker 4>to paint the whole family with with a brush, but

721
00:46:27.719 --> 00:46:31.199
<v Speaker 4>we have we have brothers who are bad, and if

722
00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:35.480
<v Speaker 4>you get them together and they're competitively bad, you could

723
00:46:35.480 --> 00:46:38.159
<v Speaker 4>get to a situation where, you know, a Jack the

724
00:46:38.239 --> 00:46:43.719
<v Speaker 4>Ripper type incident could occur. But yeah, I mean there's

725
00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:51.280
<v Speaker 4>there's also I suspect looking at the crime scene. I

726
00:46:51.320 --> 00:46:55.519
<v Speaker 4>I suspect the first wound was George Anne's throat being cut,

727
00:46:56.559 --> 00:46:59.639
<v Speaker 4>and this would match you know, him holding a knife

728
00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:02.760
<v Speaker 4>to the of other victims, saying you make any noise,

729
00:47:03.199 --> 00:47:07.719
<v Speaker 4>you're dead meat. And we have George Mulligan's ear witness

730
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:14.000
<v Speaker 4>testimony that you know he heard a scream coming from

731
00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:18.440
<v Speaker 4>back by the creek. He said, behind your house a

732
00:47:18.440 --> 00:47:22.400
<v Speaker 4>little bit to the left. Well at least it was close.

733
00:47:23.800 --> 00:47:26.400
<v Speaker 4>But if she screamed, then that could have been the

734
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:30.679
<v Speaker 4>first the first uh, the first cut. And you know,

735
00:47:30.679 --> 00:47:32.679
<v Speaker 4>who knows what happens all of a sudden, he's got

736
00:47:33.039 --> 00:47:35.519
<v Speaker 4>a dead girl on his hands. What does he do then?

737
00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:39.920
<v Speaker 4>You know, whatever he wants?

738
00:47:40.599 --> 00:47:45.519
<v Speaker 6>What was the purpose? And we touched on Arthur Shawcross,

739
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:49.280
<v Speaker 6>but you also include Richard Speck and a few other cases.

740
00:47:49.639 --> 00:47:52.199
<v Speaker 4>And you also have been clear he wasn't he was

741
00:47:52.199 --> 00:47:55.519
<v Speaker 4>nowhere near. But then he was the initial suspect because

742
00:47:55.840 --> 00:48:01.199
<v Speaker 4>he killed the nurses in Chicago between when Georgianne and

743
00:48:01.239 --> 00:48:06.559
<v Speaker 4>Kathy disappeared and when they were found. The other really

744
00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:09.880
<v Speaker 4>good suspect that I think anyway, is a fellow named

745
00:48:09.960 --> 00:48:15.079
<v Speaker 4>John I. Miller. On September third, nineteen sixty six, a

746
00:48:15.079 --> 00:48:18.880
<v Speaker 4>little more than two months after our murders, Miller's driving

747
00:48:18.880 --> 00:48:21.920
<v Speaker 4>down a Pennsylvania road when he passed a small girl

748
00:48:21.960 --> 00:48:25.239
<v Speaker 4>in her bathing suit riding her bicycle. Stops the car

749
00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:28.360
<v Speaker 4>and tries to abduct her, but she screams, and he

750
00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:31.320
<v Speaker 4>stabs her with a hunting knife until she's dead, and

751
00:48:31.400 --> 00:48:33.559
<v Speaker 4>leaves her by the side of the road and the

752
00:48:33.639 --> 00:48:35.760
<v Speaker 4>murder had a lot in common with ours. It was

753
00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:42.960
<v Speaker 4>it both took place on a Saturday, the victims were

754
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:46.360
<v Speaker 4>in their bathing suits, and police like to that fetish

755
00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:51.360
<v Speaker 4>a lot because the thing that they wasn't found. They

756
00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:55.159
<v Speaker 4>found the transistor radio, and they found Georgianne's towel, but

757
00:48:55.199 --> 00:48:58.360
<v Speaker 4>they never found Kathy's towel, and it had on it

758
00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:00.480
<v Speaker 4>a picture of a girl in a baby ing suit

759
00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:05.159
<v Speaker 4>with a big sombrero. So if bathing suits are his thing,

760
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:10.719
<v Speaker 4>that was the souvenir he took. Now. Now, Rochester authorities

761
00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:14.000
<v Speaker 4>went down to Pennsylvania to interview Miller, but they found

762
00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:18.679
<v Speaker 4>him mentally incompetent and but nonetheless case against him heated

763
00:49:18.760 --> 00:49:21.559
<v Speaker 4>up when it was learned that he he drove a

764
00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:24.840
<v Speaker 4>make and color of car very similar to one spotted

765
00:49:25.239 --> 00:49:28.280
<v Speaker 4>the night after Kathy and Georgie and disappeared by a

766
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:30.920
<v Speaker 4>teenage girl on the same lover's lane where the girl's

767
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:36.679
<v Speaker 4>bodies were found. That sighting occurred on Sunday night, late

768
00:49:36.719 --> 00:49:40.239
<v Speaker 4>on Sunday night, which a little bit of a discouraging

769
00:49:40.280 --> 00:49:45.440
<v Speaker 4>factor because Miller shows up for work first thing Monday

770
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:49.519
<v Speaker 4>morning back in Pennsylvania, and technically he could have gotten

771
00:49:49.519 --> 00:49:55.119
<v Speaker 4>in his car, driven to his to his work and

772
00:49:55.239 --> 00:49:58.000
<v Speaker 4>reported for work on time, but it would have been

773
00:49:58.360 --> 00:50:02.280
<v Speaker 4>you know, coacht Shay. It's not impossible that he was

774
00:50:02.280 --> 00:50:05.119
<v Speaker 4>the killer, but I think the timing makes it less likely.

775
00:50:05.960 --> 00:50:10.800
<v Speaker 4>The Rochester newspaper ran Miller's photo and a surprising number

776
00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:12.679
<v Speaker 4>of people called in and said they'd seen them in

777
00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:17.559
<v Speaker 4>the area, including a bartender on Scottsville Road, right near

778
00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:21.360
<v Speaker 4>the where the murders took place. He was known to

779
00:50:21.400 --> 00:50:24.719
<v Speaker 4>be fascinated by female anatomy. He kept a file of

780
00:50:24.760 --> 00:50:31.239
<v Speaker 4>stories about murdered children, and he ended up I think

781
00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:34.480
<v Speaker 4>serving twenty years for the for the murder of the

782
00:50:34.519 --> 00:50:40.199
<v Speaker 4>girl on her bicycle, and he may be alive and

783
00:50:41.599 --> 00:50:47.400
<v Speaker 4>walking among us down there still. But again, for him

784
00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:49.679
<v Speaker 4>to be both the person on the lover's lane on

785
00:50:49.719 --> 00:50:51.760
<v Speaker 4>Sunday night and the guy reporting for work on time

786
00:50:51.800 --> 00:50:57.559
<v Speaker 4>on Monday morning would mean cutting it very close. You know.

787
00:50:57.599 --> 00:51:02.599
<v Speaker 4>The other suspect we had where the fellow were calling

788
00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:07.960
<v Speaker 4>Tom Armstrong. He was a local educator who, as the

789
00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:10.559
<v Speaker 4>story went, and a lot of this is through the

790
00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:14.920
<v Speaker 4>grapevine and nothing official about it at all, but the

791
00:51:14.960 --> 00:51:18.039
<v Speaker 4>story goes that he confessed to his wife that he

792
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:22.840
<v Speaker 4>had killed the girls and soon thereafter committed suicide. Now

793
00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:25.280
<v Speaker 4>we verified as much as we could of the story.

794
00:51:25.800 --> 00:51:29.760
<v Speaker 4>He'd committed suicide all right, not long after resigning from

795
00:51:29.800 --> 00:51:33.599
<v Speaker 4>a teaching and vice principal position. But when we asked

796
00:51:33.639 --> 00:51:38.000
<v Speaker 4>the family about confessing the murder, we were told that

797
00:51:38.039 --> 00:51:40.159
<v Speaker 4>it all happened a long time ago and we should

798
00:51:40.199 --> 00:51:45.159
<v Speaker 4>leave the family alone. The response lacked one thing, a denial.

799
00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:47.599
<v Speaker 4>I mean, if someone had written me a letter and said,

800
00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:52.000
<v Speaker 4>you know, we think your dad committed a double homicide,

801
00:51:52.119 --> 00:51:55.360
<v Speaker 4>I would have said, no way, my dad didn't do it.

802
00:51:55.920 --> 00:51:59.960
<v Speaker 4>But the Armstrong family didn't say that. They merely had

803
00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:03.199
<v Speaker 4>to be left alone. And it may just be that

804
00:52:03.280 --> 00:52:09.079
<v Speaker 4>they didn't think it through. But anyway, I would like

805
00:52:09.119 --> 00:52:11.039
<v Speaker 4>to know. I would like to know more about that guy.

806
00:52:12.440 --> 00:52:15.880
<v Speaker 4>Mm hmm, especially since also we have that where we

807
00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:20.920
<v Speaker 4>found people who knew both Clint and Tom Armstrong and

808
00:52:21.039 --> 00:52:23.880
<v Speaker 4>if if if they knew each other, wow, what a

809
00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:26.400
<v Speaker 4>what a pair they were made.

810
00:52:27.079 --> 00:52:30.559
<v Speaker 6>He also include the Devil's Disciples and Hell's Angels connection

811
00:52:30.639 --> 00:52:33.280
<v Speaker 6>in here, So tell us a little bit about that.

812
00:52:33.320 --> 00:52:38.199
<v Speaker 4>Clint Flint was a biker and he at the time

813
00:52:38.239 --> 00:52:40.960
<v Speaker 4>of the of the murders. He belonged to a Rochester

814
00:52:41.079 --> 00:52:47.559
<v Speaker 4>bike game called the Hackers, and he the Hackers became

815
00:52:48.079 --> 00:52:51.920
<v Speaker 4>the Rochester chapter of the Hell's Angels and soon thereafter

816
00:52:52.599 --> 00:52:56.760
<v Speaker 4>Clint was kicked out because they found him to be

817
00:52:56.960 --> 00:53:04.800
<v Speaker 4>a bad character. Now now us because he picked on

818
00:53:05.239 --> 00:53:08.679
<v Speaker 4>people smaller and weaker than him rather than being a

819
00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:12.119
<v Speaker 4>guy who you know, flought people his own size. And

820
00:53:12.199 --> 00:53:16.199
<v Speaker 4>then maybe they knew something about him that that you know,

821
00:53:16.280 --> 00:53:20.159
<v Speaker 4>we don't. But anyway, he didn't have the character to

822
00:53:20.199 --> 00:53:26.760
<v Speaker 4>be a Hell's Angel, so he joined another biker group

823
00:53:26.800 --> 00:53:31.000
<v Speaker 4>called the Devil's Disciples. And again this gets back to

824
00:53:32.320 --> 00:53:37.800
<v Speaker 4>you know, six sixty six and Anton Levey. In addition

825
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:41.880
<v Speaker 4>to the creepy teenagers dressing up like the Adams family,

826
00:53:42.239 --> 00:53:45.840
<v Speaker 4>the other group that really latched onto the LaVey symbolism

827
00:53:46.519 --> 00:53:52.159
<v Speaker 4>were bikers. So yeah, as Clinton, Clint was the Devil's

828
00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:55.639
<v Speaker 4>Disciple in addition to all the other things that he

829
00:53:55.760 --> 00:53:59.280
<v Speaker 4>had going for him. But that's one thing I want.

830
00:53:59.320 --> 00:54:02.599
<v Speaker 4>I want to point out that the book's written, books done,

831
00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:07.079
<v Speaker 4>the investigation will go on forever. And if there's anybody

832
00:54:07.159 --> 00:54:12.320
<v Speaker 4>listening who knows any of these people knows something that

833
00:54:12.320 --> 00:54:15.039
<v Speaker 4>that's not in the book, or just wants to talk

834
00:54:15.079 --> 00:54:20.360
<v Speaker 4>about it, they can contact me at Facebook www dot

835
00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:24.880
<v Speaker 4>facebook dot com, forward slash Michael dot Benson dot nine

836
00:54:24.920 --> 00:54:29.800
<v Speaker 4>four two one, and whatever you want to say. Let

837
00:54:29.800 --> 00:54:32.039
<v Speaker 4>me know who you think did it. If if there's

838
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:34.559
<v Speaker 4>somebody's out there saying I think I'm I'm a Shawcross guy,

839
00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:37.719
<v Speaker 4>love to talk to you about that. I never get

840
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:39.800
<v Speaker 4>sick to talk about Shawcross. And there are elements at

841
00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:42.239
<v Speaker 4>the Shawcross story we didn't get to talk about tonight.

842
00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:45.840
<v Speaker 4>You know, We're never gonna have a confession in this case.

843
00:54:46.719 --> 00:54:49.159
<v Speaker 4>But I'm not convinced that it couldn't be a DNA

844
00:54:49.320 --> 00:54:55.639
<v Speaker 4>case and that it can't be solved. You just taken

845
00:54:55.719 --> 00:54:59.639
<v Speaker 4>off the books, so you know, along with being an

846
00:54:59.760 --> 00:55:02.519
<v Speaker 4>entergy aim informed for people who like grisly murder stories

847
00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:06.360
<v Speaker 4>and educational piece about how to distinguish and stop systemic

848
00:55:06.440 --> 00:55:09.239
<v Speaker 4>child abuse, it's it's a bit of a call to

849
00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:12.239
<v Speaker 4>action for the Mono County Sheriff's Office, who have the

850
00:55:12.280 --> 00:55:18.719
<v Speaker 4>subpoena power exclamation, search warrants and the investigation investigative punch

851
00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:22.760
<v Speaker 4>to solve this case once and for all. Like I said,

852
00:55:22.960 --> 00:55:26.400
<v Speaker 4>Georgianne had a baby, and the father of that baby,

853
00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:30.320
<v Speaker 4>you know, maybe our killer who knows you know, while

854
00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:32.320
<v Speaker 4>they're in it, they may find a solution to the

855
00:55:32.320 --> 00:55:35.199
<v Speaker 4>double initials murders as well. I don't know if they're

856
00:55:35.400 --> 00:55:38.559
<v Speaker 4>familiarly with that's that the double initial murders happened a

857
00:55:38.599 --> 00:55:41.360
<v Speaker 4>couple of years later and sort of made people forget

858
00:55:41.360 --> 00:55:45.239
<v Speaker 4>about the childlie murders that the Genesee Junction murders. They

859
00:55:45.280 --> 00:55:47.679
<v Speaker 4>were three little girls, all with the same first and

860
00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:52.920
<v Speaker 4>last initial, who were abducted in the city of Rochester

861
00:55:53.159 --> 00:55:56.960
<v Speaker 4>and then were raped and murdered and dunked in a

862
00:55:57.079 --> 00:56:00.000
<v Speaker 4>town in the suburbs. It also started that same.

863
00:56:04.119 --> 00:56:09.760
<v Speaker 6>You also talk about in in Eerie that people thought

864
00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:13.599
<v Speaker 6>might have been connected to Georgia.

865
00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:17.119
<v Speaker 4>For a long time. In fact, I when I first

866
00:56:17.199 --> 00:56:22.760
<v Speaker 4>started investigating this case as an adult and a professional,

867
00:56:23.559 --> 00:56:26.360
<v Speaker 4>I was talking to police detectives for the first time,

868
00:56:26.920 --> 00:56:31.960
<v Speaker 4>and the Eerie case was considered to be very, very

869
00:56:32.000 --> 00:56:34.960
<v Speaker 4>important because it happened very close to the same time

870
00:56:35.960 --> 00:56:38.920
<v Speaker 4>and it was only forty minutes down the New York

871
00:56:38.920 --> 00:56:42.119
<v Speaker 4>State Thruway ury Pennsylvania's on the other side of the border.

872
00:56:43.039 --> 00:56:46.920
<v Speaker 4>They later caught a guy who looks good for looks

873
00:56:46.920 --> 00:56:50.159
<v Speaker 4>good for that one. So we got to cross that

874
00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:53.559
<v Speaker 4>one off the list. There was not enough crossing off

875
00:56:53.599 --> 00:56:57.360
<v Speaker 4>of lists for my case. Like I said, we have

876
00:56:57.480 --> 00:57:02.920
<v Speaker 4>a plethora of suspect Unfortunately.

877
00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:08.320
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, I found in this book that maybe not a frustration,

878
00:57:08.519 --> 00:57:11.360
<v Speaker 6>but maybe that's not exactly the word, but like you say,

879
00:57:11.400 --> 00:57:17.400
<v Speaker 6>a plethora of viable possible suspects, and then you talk

880
00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:21.760
<v Speaker 6>about all of the just the other heinous crimes that

881
00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:26.119
<v Speaker 6>these other guys like Shatcross have done, and then the

882
00:57:26.199 --> 00:57:30.920
<v Speaker 6>possible suspects here, like you say, are very viable. What

883
00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:33.280
<v Speaker 6>was your conclusion at the end of this other or

884
00:57:33.280 --> 00:57:35.320
<v Speaker 6>were I don't know if it was a conclusion, but

885
00:57:35.639 --> 00:57:40.639
<v Speaker 6>how surprised Being this veteran true crime writer and many

886
00:57:40.719 --> 00:57:45.480
<v Speaker 6>years involved in this, were you still surprised at the

887
00:57:45.559 --> 00:57:50.320
<v Speaker 6>number of viable suspects and the amount of similarities in

888
00:57:50.480 --> 00:57:53.880
<v Speaker 6>a lot of these crimes that would lead a more

889
00:57:53.920 --> 00:57:58.840
<v Speaker 6>amateur investigator to draw conclusions in terms of suspects.

890
00:57:59.920 --> 00:58:07.239
<v Speaker 4>I wonder again, it's it's the cluster of suspects, you know.

891
00:58:07.280 --> 00:58:13.119
<v Speaker 4>I'm I love a good conspiracy theory and Holy Town.

892
00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:17.159
<v Speaker 4>It's almost like there was a club of little girl

893
00:58:17.199 --> 00:58:19.960
<v Speaker 4>loving men, and they all moved on to the same

894
00:58:20.079 --> 00:58:26.400
<v Speaker 4>block that so they could organize their efforts. And I

895
00:58:26.440 --> 00:58:28.639
<v Speaker 4>do know that there were there were men on Names

896
00:58:28.719 --> 00:58:32.400
<v Speaker 4>Road who went to the local bar and were known

897
00:58:32.440 --> 00:58:35.679
<v Speaker 4>to brag to the bartender about the young and as

898
00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:40.840
<v Speaker 4>they nailed and it's just real grizzly stuff. And these

899
00:58:40.880 --> 00:58:43.840
<v Speaker 4>were the fathers of kids I was going to school with.

900
00:58:44.719 --> 00:58:46.960
<v Speaker 4>You know, they all seemed like nice kids to me,

901
00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:50.119
<v Speaker 4>and I'm sure there they were, but their dads were

902
00:58:50.159 --> 00:58:55.320
<v Speaker 4>all into this really, really horrible stuff. And I remember

903
00:58:55.360 --> 00:58:58.559
<v Speaker 4>I was interviewing one poor girl who who had been

904
00:58:58.599 --> 00:59:02.400
<v Speaker 4>abused as a She lived very close to Kathy, and

905
00:59:02.440 --> 00:59:05.760
<v Speaker 4>I say, you know, it's amazing that any any of

906
00:59:05.800 --> 00:59:09.880
<v Speaker 4>the girls on Names Road survived, and she laughses, I

907
00:59:09.920 --> 00:59:17.960
<v Speaker 4>know what you mean. So I made perhaps because it

908
00:59:18.039 --> 00:59:20.920
<v Speaker 4>was a poor neighborhood, that that maybe there's more of

909
00:59:20.960 --> 00:59:25.800
<v Speaker 4>this than we realized. But it just does seem like

910
00:59:25.880 --> 00:59:34.519
<v Speaker 4>there was an unnatural grouping of perversion right around the murders. Yeah,

911
00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:38.559
<v Speaker 4>which which stout Benson's steered clear of.

912
00:59:41.039 --> 00:59:45.320
<v Speaker 6>What about Ruth for Mcola in that family, what's well,

913
00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:48.000
<v Speaker 6>it's going to be a great outcome for.

914
00:59:50.440 --> 00:59:56.000
<v Speaker 4>Ruth. And uh and George Georgia's mom and dad, they left.

915
00:59:56.159 --> 01:00:00.639
<v Speaker 4>They split for Florida not long after this all happened,

916
01:00:01.199 --> 01:00:06.880
<v Speaker 4>and they also adopted a little boy who came down

917
01:00:06.920 --> 01:00:10.400
<v Speaker 4>to visit us once and I swear he had Georgeanne's face.

918
01:00:13.320 --> 01:00:17.719
<v Speaker 4>So we're looking for him still, but we're not getting

919
01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:22.039
<v Speaker 4>a lot of cooperation from from Georgie Anne's sister or

920
01:00:23.400 --> 01:00:30.199
<v Speaker 4>George's nephew, who we did find. And one of the

921
01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:36.400
<v Speaker 4>favorite quotes in the book is that George's nephew says

922
01:00:36.440 --> 01:00:40.679
<v Speaker 4>to Don Tubbin, you know the Wilson boys did it,

923
01:00:42.800 --> 01:00:45.360
<v Speaker 4>but don't worry about it. We take care of our own.

924
01:00:46.280 --> 01:00:51.599
<v Speaker 4>He used the pearl. And there are multiple Wilson boys

925
01:00:52.199 --> 01:00:58.280
<v Speaker 4>who were killed by their wives or their girlfriends. And

926
01:00:58.440 --> 01:01:00.840
<v Speaker 4>there would have been one more if fan Scene had

927
01:01:00.880 --> 01:01:03.480
<v Speaker 4>managed to drive Clint off the road when he was

928
01:01:03.480 --> 01:01:05.039
<v Speaker 4>on his motorcycle, but she missed.

929
01:01:06.719 --> 01:01:14.840
<v Speaker 6>Incredible. Yeah, it's an very very compelling story. Here. What

930
01:01:15.039 --> 01:01:17.360
<v Speaker 6>is your schedule now that this book is is going

931
01:01:17.440 --> 01:01:20.400
<v Speaker 6>to be released very soon in the next few days.

932
01:01:20.960 --> 01:01:21.679
<v Speaker 4>In terms of.

933
01:01:24.440 --> 01:01:27.719
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, go ahead, sorry, uh, well, our.

934
01:01:27.559 --> 01:01:31.239
<v Speaker 4>Schedule, I'm the book is supposed to be on sale

935
01:01:31.440 --> 01:01:36.039
<v Speaker 4>on Monday, the sixteenth. We did have a report today

936
01:01:36.159 --> 01:01:39.000
<v Speaker 4>on Facebook of somebody getting one in the mail, so

937
01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:43.679
<v Speaker 4>apparently Amazon dot Com it is fulfilling pre orders. I'm

938
01:01:43.679 --> 01:01:45.280
<v Speaker 4>guessing you got one.

939
01:01:45.519 --> 01:01:48.039
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, the book, I haven't.

940
01:01:48.199 --> 01:01:50.320
<v Speaker 4>I haven't seen it yet, as you know. As you know,

941
01:01:50.719 --> 01:01:52.480
<v Speaker 4>my mom passed away a couple of days ago, and

942
01:01:52.559 --> 01:01:56.239
<v Speaker 4>I'm I'm at her. I'm at her apartment now and

943
01:01:56.360 --> 01:02:00.519
<v Speaker 4>we're burying her on Friday, and so my books are

944
01:02:00.559 --> 01:02:04.320
<v Speaker 4>heading towards my home in Brooklyn. So I've ordered a

945
01:02:04.320 --> 01:02:05.840
<v Speaker 4>couple of extra to come here, but I may not

946
01:02:05.880 --> 01:02:08.719
<v Speaker 4>see it for a few days yet. I'm very envious

947
01:02:08.840 --> 01:02:11.599
<v Speaker 4>people who have the book and I don't, because I

948
01:02:11.679 --> 01:02:14.679
<v Speaker 4>wanted to yell if they have the very first one

949
01:02:15.280 --> 01:02:19.960
<v Speaker 4>I have. On next Wednesday, on the eighteenth, I will

950
01:02:19.960 --> 01:02:23.559
<v Speaker 4>be appearing at seven pm at the Scottsville Free Library

951
01:02:24.440 --> 01:02:27.440
<v Speaker 4>for a local Author Night and giving a little talk

952
01:02:27.480 --> 01:02:30.280
<v Speaker 4>about how I became a writer. And then on the

953
01:02:30.320 --> 01:02:33.079
<v Speaker 4>twenty first, on the afternoon of the twenty first, two pm,

954
01:02:33.239 --> 01:02:35.599
<v Speaker 4>I will be at the University of Rochester Barnes and

955
01:02:35.639 --> 01:02:39.559
<v Speaker 4>Noble signing books and anybody wants to come out and

956
01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:43.159
<v Speaker 4>say hi, that'd be great. And right now I'm working on.

957
01:02:43.280 --> 01:02:47.039
<v Speaker 4>My new book is going to be on but the

958
01:02:47.199 --> 01:02:50.679
<v Speaker 4>Escape from Dana Moore Prison Escape Lad of the Summer

959
01:02:51.119 --> 01:02:54.480
<v Speaker 4>and when I'm emphasizing at the moment what these guys

960
01:02:54.559 --> 01:02:57.079
<v Speaker 4>did to get to Dani Mora in the first place,

961
01:02:57.280 --> 01:03:00.280
<v Speaker 4>because how you know these two dirt bags could end

962
01:03:00.360 --> 01:03:04.079
<v Speaker 4>up in the honor block is pretty boggling to me.

963
01:03:04.639 --> 01:03:06.840
<v Speaker 4>And my next book to come out completely change of

964
01:03:06.880 --> 01:03:09.400
<v Speaker 4>pace for me is called why in the Grateful Dead Matter,

965
01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:12.840
<v Speaker 4>And it's about the rock band and my and my

966
01:03:12.920 --> 01:03:14.599
<v Speaker 4>love for them since I was a kid.

967
01:03:16.760 --> 01:03:18.960
<v Speaker 6>I was surprised at that my car really was so

968
01:03:19.760 --> 01:03:24.440
<v Speaker 6>I was really interesting. The phenomenon of Grateful Dead is amazing,

969
01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:26.880
<v Speaker 6>and so I've I was surprised that it took this

970
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:29.719
<v Speaker 6>long for somebody to chronicle it. So I'm very interested

971
01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:33.079
<v Speaker 6>to see as a fan what you've got to say

972
01:03:33.079 --> 01:03:36.360
<v Speaker 6>about it. So I think it's one of those things.

973
01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:39.519
<v Speaker 4>There's something my agent and I had in common, and

974
01:03:39.559 --> 01:03:42.800
<v Speaker 4>we had long conversations about the Dead And as it

975
01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:46.679
<v Speaker 4>turns out, then a publisher was looking for someone to

976
01:03:46.719 --> 01:03:50.480
<v Speaker 4>write a book, and my agent suggested me I really

977
01:03:50.480 --> 01:03:53.480
<v Speaker 4>wanted to job bad. I wrote a proposal that was

978
01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:56.639
<v Speaker 4>just I thought some of the best stuff I've ever written,

979
01:03:57.199 --> 01:04:00.760
<v Speaker 4>and wrote an essay. I wrote an essay answers the question.

980
01:04:01.000 --> 01:04:04.079
<v Speaker 4>Every chapter explains why they matter and then why they're

981
01:04:04.119 --> 01:04:05.079
<v Speaker 4>going to continue the matter.

982
01:04:06.800 --> 01:04:08.719
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, you have to be a dead head to I

983
01:04:08.719 --> 01:04:11.079
<v Speaker 6>think you've written that, write that proposal, so so as

984
01:04:11.119 --> 01:04:13.400
<v Speaker 6>soon as the dead head reads it, then they know

985
01:04:13.559 --> 01:04:16.159
<v Speaker 6>and that's that's it. So it has to be told

986
01:04:16.199 --> 01:04:18.599
<v Speaker 6>by that somebody. There's no way you can do the

987
01:04:18.639 --> 01:04:20.079
<v Speaker 6>investment wage otherwise.

988
01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:21.599
<v Speaker 4>That's right.

989
01:04:23.239 --> 01:04:26.760
<v Speaker 6>For those that might want to find out about more

990
01:04:26.800 --> 01:04:30.320
<v Speaker 6>of your books. I know you mentioned some contact. Do

991
01:04:30.320 --> 01:04:33.400
<v Speaker 6>you do the Facebook and a website? Could you just

992
01:04:33.480 --> 01:04:36.280
<v Speaker 6>give that contact information again in case people might not

993
01:04:36.400 --> 01:04:37.519
<v Speaker 6>work into more of your work.

994
01:04:38.679 --> 01:04:41.159
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean they can send me an email I'm

995
01:04:41.199 --> 01:04:45.800
<v Speaker 4>at T Tech mat T e K m A T

996
01:04:45.800 --> 01:04:48.960
<v Speaker 4>T at aol dot com. Or they can get me

997
01:04:49.000 --> 01:04:52.559
<v Speaker 4>a Facebook and I'm I'm the Michael Benson with the

998
01:04:52.559 --> 01:04:54.599
<v Speaker 4>white Beard in case you want just look at the pictures,

999
01:04:54.920 --> 01:04:57.880
<v Speaker 4>or I'm Michael dot Benson dot ninety four to two

1000
01:04:57.960 --> 01:05:01.679
<v Speaker 4>one if you want to plug it into your search. Yeah,

1001
01:05:01.760 --> 01:05:02.079
<v Speaker 4>right on.

1002
01:05:02.960 --> 01:05:04.480
<v Speaker 6>Well, I wish you the best of luck, and I

1003
01:05:04.559 --> 01:05:07.159
<v Speaker 6>know that You're going to have a great reception from

1004
01:05:07.159 --> 01:05:10.599
<v Speaker 6>this this book. It's going to be very personal for

1005
01:05:10.679 --> 01:05:12.519
<v Speaker 6>the people in that area, and it's going to be

1006
01:05:12.559 --> 01:05:15.360
<v Speaker 6>a great not a celebration, but I think it'll be

1007
01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:18.880
<v Speaker 6>a welcome book and and a welcome addition to the

1008
01:05:18.960 --> 01:05:22.960
<v Speaker 6>history of that little area. And who knows. I think

1009
01:05:22.960 --> 01:05:24.960
<v Speaker 6>it really does have a good chance of becoming, like

1010
01:05:25.000 --> 01:05:27.519
<v Speaker 6>the East Area rapist, one of those kind of cases

1011
01:05:27.559 --> 01:05:30.519
<v Speaker 6>where people want to get involved and solve this thing

1012
01:05:30.559 --> 01:05:32.559
<v Speaker 6>once and for all. I think you've given so much

1013
01:05:32.599 --> 01:05:37.000
<v Speaker 6>information and clues and direction that it should you know,

1014
01:05:37.079 --> 01:05:40.559
<v Speaker 6>it could very well become a possibility. So I wish

1015
01:05:40.599 --> 01:05:42.159
<v Speaker 6>you the best in that pursuit.

1016
01:05:44.239 --> 01:05:46.760
<v Speaker 4>I would love to give Alice burn Heart absolute and

1017
01:05:46.840 --> 01:05:49.719
<v Speaker 4>final closure. That's been my goal all along.

1018
01:05:51.239 --> 01:05:53.599
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, well, this is a good start and a very

1019
01:05:53.599 --> 01:05:57.320
<v Speaker 6>good beginning, and hopefully at least people will know what

1020
01:05:57.559 --> 01:06:00.840
<v Speaker 6>has happened and the story is out there and for

1021
01:06:00.920 --> 01:06:05.119
<v Speaker 6>people to discover and uh in a very very great

1022
01:06:05.159 --> 01:06:07.599
<v Speaker 6>tale written by you, Michael. So I want to congratulate

1023
01:06:07.639 --> 01:06:08.039
<v Speaker 6>you on.

1024
01:06:07.920 --> 01:06:09.480
<v Speaker 4>That, and thanks.

1025
01:06:10.880 --> 01:06:17.119
<v Speaker 6>My condolences about your your mother and your mom died.

1026
01:06:16.920 --> 01:06:17.679
<v Speaker 4>Recently as well.

1027
01:06:18.599 --> 01:06:23.280
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, very difficult time, but yeah, anyway, thank you very

1028
01:06:23.320 --> 01:06:25.519
<v Speaker 6>much Michael, you have a great evening and hope to

1029
01:06:25.519 --> 01:06:29.000
<v Speaker 6>talk to you and soon. Okay, pleasure, thanks a lot,

1030
01:06:29.760 --> 01:06:30.119
<v Speaker 6>thank you,
