1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:05,639 Speaker 1: Here we go another episode of Adventures in DevOps. Jillian, 2 00:00:05,839 --> 00:00:08,359 thank you for joining me as co host today. Hello, 3 00:00:09,199 --> 00:00:13,240 Warren is off on vacation getting some much needed rest 4 00:00:13,279 --> 00:00:18,320 and relaxation and also joining us today, Vernon Keenan from 5 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:20,359 Salesforce DevOps. 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,519 Speaker 2: Welcome, Vernon, Thank you, thank you. 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 3: It's great being here. I hope, like, I'm sure some insights. 8 00:00:27,879 --> 00:00:29,519 Speaker 2: Dude, I'm pretty sure you can. 9 00:00:29,559 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: Because I'm particularly excited about this because it's not very 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,039 often that I get to hang out and talk with 11 00:00:37,119 --> 00:00:40,119 people who have been doing this longer than I have. 12 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,119 Speaker 2: So I'm not trying to like throw out your age 13 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:44,359 or anything, but I feel like. 14 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I take it as a badge of 15 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:48,920 honor that I've been doing it this long, and so 16 00:00:49,039 --> 00:00:53,240 when i meet someone who's been doing it similarly, I'm excited. 17 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 3: Well, thank you, yah. I've been doing it for forty 18 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:02,039 five years now, that's a while. Started my career at 19 00:01:02,119 --> 00:01:07,200 the Northwestern University working in the medical school, and then 20 00:01:08,079 --> 00:01:11,719 had a great chance to work at Genentech in the early. 21 00:01:11,519 --> 00:01:14,879 Speaker 4: Days, and that was what were we doing there. 22 00:01:15,799 --> 00:01:19,719 Speaker 3: I was doing clinical research, so I was actually one 23 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,200 of the first people to see the results of the 24 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,680 clinical trials because I was doing data analysis and we 25 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,760 used a product called SASS, and of course, because we 26 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,079 were genetic and we thought we could do anything, we 27 00:01:33,439 --> 00:01:43,280 decided to write our own clinical research product. How hard. Yeah, 28 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:47,480 that was. That was a lesson in humility, right because 29 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,760 because we we we learned that Oracle did a much 30 00:01:50,879 --> 00:01:54,760 much better job at that particular product. 31 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 4: Than we ever cracked down some hubrist So I'm sure 32 00:01:58,079 --> 00:01:58,840 it was all fine. 33 00:02:00,599 --> 00:02:02,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean it still happens all the time, 34 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:04,640 you know. I talk to enterprises all the time, and 35 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,439 people still waste their time doing custom projects they could 36 00:02:07,439 --> 00:02:08,919 buy out there. 37 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 1: I think it's one of those It's one of those 38 00:02:12,719 --> 00:02:14,520 lessons that you can't teach anyone. 39 00:02:14,599 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 2: They just have to learn it themselves. 40 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, because you're so conceived, you know, 41 00:02:21,599 --> 00:02:23,840 you know that you think your requirements are so unique, 42 00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:27,840 You think your requirements are special, You think that your 43 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,520 talents and your abilities are special. Well, it turns out 44 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,319 they're not, generally, because usually what happens is a software 45 00:02:35,319 --> 00:02:39,680 company is going to find somebody who is much better 46 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,000 at those qualities than you are, because they're going to 47 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,680 produce it for ten times as many people and they're 48 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:46,840 going to make ten times as much profit, so they 49 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,159 have as much, you know, ten times as much motivation 50 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:54,280 to find to find the right people. So but that's yeah, 51 00:02:54,319 --> 00:02:56,759 I got started there, and then I had a fascinating 52 00:02:56,879 --> 00:03:01,479 early career. I was that I was at Oracle and 53 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,599 actually Mark Benioff himself hired me there and I was 54 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,919 working for him, and I had the unique experience of 55 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,280 going into the corporate visits center all the time and 56 00:03:14,159 --> 00:03:17,840 I was basically just lying my butt off all the time, 57 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:22,159 drawing boxes on the board, putting putting arrows, talking to 58 00:03:22,199 --> 00:03:26,039 the CEO of various global companies, saying, yeah, we can 59 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,000 do this, we can do that. We look at this 60 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,639 application server. It puts everything together, and it was all 61 00:03:33,199 --> 00:03:38,680 It wasn't true. It wasn't true. That's that's what I 62 00:03:38,719 --> 00:03:43,439 call the first act of enterprise software. We basically said 63 00:03:43,479 --> 00:03:46,159 everything was gonna it was going to work. And then 64 00:03:46,319 --> 00:03:47,479 and then it didn't. 65 00:03:48,919 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: Like first act like a Shakespearean tragedy where you know 66 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:53,680 what acts too, and there you're going to be like. 67 00:03:55,159 --> 00:03:57,919 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean act too. I think was the 68 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,000 data Lake data warehouse era. We tried to put everything 69 00:04:01,039 --> 00:04:05,479 into like a secondary storage area, and we still didn't 70 00:04:05,479 --> 00:04:08,000 get transformation and we still didn't get you know, new 71 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,960 capabilities out of that. And hopefully we're in the third 72 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,159 act now where maybe things will come. 73 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 4: It is just going to do it for us, That's 74 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:23,160 what I think. Well, my data anymore? Who who needs 75 00:04:23,199 --> 00:04:25,040 even Mango dB when I've got AI. 76 00:04:28,879 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 3: We could delve into that a little later, I guess, 77 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:37,560 but but yes, So my friendship with Mark Benioff is 78 00:04:37,879 --> 00:04:42,519 kind of interesting because I recently renewed it. It was 79 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:47,399 fascinating because I wrote a blog post that got his 80 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,279 attention that said why Salesforce trailblazers don't care about AI? 81 00:04:52,519 --> 00:04:56,399 And my phone started blowing up and I and I 82 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:01,959 was have renewed my friendship with Mark. So so that 83 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:03,680 is that that's interesting as well. 84 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 2: So what's your take on that? Why don't they care? 85 00:05:07,639 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 3: Well, the reason was because they didn't actually put it, 86 00:05:11,319 --> 00:05:14,920 make it available in the product. So the thing about 87 00:05:14,959 --> 00:05:18,560 Salesforce that I liked as a you know, like I 88 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,199 got my first Salesforce account actually way back in nineteen 89 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,800 ninety nine, and I've been using it, you know, on 90 00:05:25,879 --> 00:05:28,279 and off, and I actually built my own business on 91 00:05:28,399 --> 00:05:33,839 it about starting in twenty twelve created a whole enterprise 92 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,439 product for telecom that I used in my business. And 93 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,639 the reason why I thought that the Trailblazer community was 94 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:47,879 so active and so forthcoming with chips and tricks and 95 00:05:47,959 --> 00:05:51,759 like techniques and sharing and things like that was because 96 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,879 the SaaS pricing model basically gave you all you could 97 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,160 eat for a fixed price. So any Trailblazer would be 98 00:06:00,199 --> 00:06:03,319 able to like go to the set up menu and 99 00:06:03,399 --> 00:06:05,839 search for a new feature, for example, and then they 100 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,959 could just like start trying it out. So those capabilities 101 00:06:09,959 --> 00:06:14,959 were always in there. But because AI seems to be different, 102 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,920 mainly in terms of the cost that the companies have 103 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,680 to burden to provide it, they didn't do that. They 104 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,639 made you order a product. So while they were all 105 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,279 carping and you know, saying AI this and AI that, 106 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,480 like ninety five percent of the Trailblazers out there couldn't 107 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:35,399 get access to it. So that that was my point. 108 00:06:35,519 --> 00:06:39,279 And the thing that was a fascinating story actually is 109 00:06:39,319 --> 00:06:43,920 that what happened was Mark read that they sent me 110 00:06:44,079 --> 00:06:47,199 the keynote and I actually was able to like edit 111 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,439 the keynote and tell them what they should fix. Oh wow, 112 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:55,959 And this is like three days before Dreamforce, and and 113 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,519 they I sent it back to them. They put all 114 00:06:58,519 --> 00:07:04,879 the changes in, They changed product timelines, accelerated timelines, and 115 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:06,560 just you know, made a bunch of people, you know, 116 00:07:06,959 --> 00:07:09,240 you know what happens with the CEO says do things 117 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,000 to a bunch of people they weren't expecting to do 118 00:07:11,079 --> 00:07:12,560 things like over the weekend and. 119 00:07:15,759 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 4: Weekend that at all. 120 00:07:18,519 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 3: That's right, it's gone. You know. It's like plus, you 121 00:07:20,759 --> 00:07:23,839 got all the stress of you know, Dreamforce coming up, 122 00:07:23,839 --> 00:07:25,360 all the prep and now they got to change all 123 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,800 the products. So they changed it. They actually included a 124 00:07:28,839 --> 00:07:34,800 free version of their new Agent Force thing in a 125 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,600 new go to market version of their product they call Foundations, 126 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,120 which is kind of like you can just buy it 127 00:07:43,199 --> 00:07:46,199 with a credit card as opposed to dealing with one 128 00:07:46,279 --> 00:07:51,160 of their account executives. They so they actually changed the product. 129 00:07:51,639 --> 00:07:55,160 Not sure how effective that was, but kind of just 130 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,519 like in any situation, when it did, it just peeled 131 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,000 the onion a little bit and revealed another problem underneath, 132 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:04,800 which is how are they going to charge for it? 133 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,439 So they haven't really figured it out yet is the answer. 134 00:08:09,879 --> 00:08:11,600 So there's a lot of confusion out there. In the 135 00:08:11,639 --> 00:08:14,879 Salesforce world as to how they're gonna pay for it. 136 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,399 The all this magical AI stuff. Sure it keeps talking 137 00:08:19,399 --> 00:08:24,319 about for sure, But so get back to the saastevops thing. 138 00:08:24,319 --> 00:08:27,199 I just tell my story a little bit more so, 139 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,759 Like I said, I was in Telecom, I had this. 140 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,399 I had built an actual tax engine on the Salesforce 141 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,240 platform for Telecom, which is you can imagine, it's pretty complex. 142 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,600 And I had an opportunity to kind of like leverage 143 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:49,960 that tax engine outside of Telecom. And so I realized 144 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,960 that Salesforce was kind of a bad platform for that 145 00:08:53,039 --> 00:08:56,360 because of its performance characteristics. You know, like if you're 146 00:08:56,399 --> 00:08:58,519 gonna have an API service, you don't want to rent 147 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,399 it off as salesforceas it was just too much overhead, 148 00:09:01,399 --> 00:09:05,960 too many constraints. So I personally got into more of 149 00:09:06,279 --> 00:09:08,879 I think your world of DevOps kind of like the 150 00:09:08,919 --> 00:09:15,200 go Kubernetes world, and I implemented all of my stuff, 151 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:20,120 you know, my new API, my new database everything with 152 00:09:20,399 --> 00:09:25,200 Go Kubernetes. It was beautiful scalables, you like, one hundred 153 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:29,799 times faster than Salesforce. And so I had that, but 154 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,480 you know, business wise, that project didn't go anywhere so 155 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,159 I had all this wonderful new DevOps knowledge plus being 156 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,519 the Salesforce expert, so I turned my attention back to Salesforce, 157 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,679 and then I realized that they were in deep, deep, 158 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:51,720 deep trouble when it came to release management. Basically what 159 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:57,759 happened was Salesforce had an initiative in the late twenty 160 00:09:57,799 --> 00:10:02,759 tens was called the sfd initiatives where they essentially created 161 00:10:02,799 --> 00:10:10,440 a command line interface to their metadata API, and this 162 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:17,240 enabled developers to pull configurations out of a Salesforce org 163 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,799 and put them into a get repository. So now this 164 00:10:22,919 --> 00:10:24,559 is starting to sound a little bit more like a 165 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:29,320 regular DevOps workflow, right where you have repository, you have 166 00:10:29,399 --> 00:10:31,759 a somewhat kind of a source of truth, and then 167 00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:36,879 you're able to deploy it again in some fashion, maybe 168 00:10:36,879 --> 00:10:40,480 to another org, or you're changing the deployment and you're 169 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,320 redeploying it to add a capability, fix an error or 170 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:51,559 something like that. So it turns out that the SFDX 171 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,840 effort was noble and was good and actually was kind 172 00:10:54,840 --> 00:11:00,559 of sufficient to begin the DevOps movement within Salesforce. And 173 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:07,039 so what happened was all these end users basically started 174 00:11:07,399 --> 00:11:11,000 to try to figure out how to use this SFDX 175 00:11:11,039 --> 00:11:15,879 tool to manipulate Salesforce. And then at the same time, 176 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,000 a group of companies I'll name a few of them. 177 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:24,840 The leaders are Capato and back then Flowsome, and another 178 00:11:24,879 --> 00:11:28,559 one that's come out is gear Set and all of 179 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,519 these companies. What they did is they kind of operationalized 180 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:39,080 that API or that CLI interface the Salesforce that provided 181 00:11:39,399 --> 00:11:44,120 end users and put a low code CLICKI interface on 182 00:11:44,279 --> 00:11:51,120 top of that capability, so that Salesforce admins and other 183 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:56,080 folks who were accustomed to a low code interface could 184 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,639 start to do release management in a more rigorous way 185 00:12:00,799 --> 00:12:06,159 using tools like get or vs code or things like 186 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,480 that to you know, have a more kind of rigorous 187 00:12:10,879 --> 00:12:15,039 development effort. But at the same time, it was still 188 00:12:15,399 --> 00:12:21,279 constrained a lot by the way that Salesforce works. So like, 189 00:12:21,639 --> 00:12:26,039 here's here's a crazy thing. I mentioned this metadata API, right, 190 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,159 and you think that this metadata API would love let 191 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,879 you to actually pull all the information out of a 192 00:12:31,919 --> 00:12:35,759 Salesforce org so that you could reproduce it, like maybe 193 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,720 copy it to another org or something like that. Turns 194 00:12:39,759 --> 00:12:45,639 out that there is neglect within Salesforce the company to 195 00:12:46,279 --> 00:12:54,440 implementing the metadata API, so they have they have definitely 196 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,360 a priority to get the low code interfaces out there first, 197 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,080 so they actually recognize that they've gone to the point 198 00:13:03,159 --> 00:13:07,480 now where it's a real problem. And some of these 199 00:13:07,519 --> 00:13:12,440 DevOps companies. Another one I'll mention is Elements Cloud, and 200 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:17,879 they're interesting because they have all kinds of proprietary ways 201 00:13:18,279 --> 00:13:21,600 to go into the Salesforce Org and get out that 202 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:29,440 metadata that's not available through the API. So this kind 203 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,039 of gets into a central theme that I have all 204 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:38,159 the time when I'm talking about SaaS stevops and Salesforce DevOps, 205 00:13:38,799 --> 00:13:43,720 which is that the way these things work is that 206 00:13:43,879 --> 00:13:47,480 you kind of have to treat the subject's system, you know, 207 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:53,480 like the Salesforce Org that you're updating or the org 208 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,799 that you're reading or copying. You have to kind of 209 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:02,000 treat that thing like a living system where there's there's 210 00:14:02,159 --> 00:14:07,360 no source of truth really other than the state of 211 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,759 the thing that it's running in now. And that's really 212 00:14:11,879 --> 00:14:16,440 quite problematic because you have to, like in order to 213 00:14:16,519 --> 00:14:20,919 understand if you can produce a deployment that's going to work, 214 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:22,559 you know it's not it's going to go through and 215 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,960 not have any errors. Essentially have to like the only 216 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,720 way to do that is the is to submitted to 217 00:14:28,919 --> 00:14:32,159 the org and see if any errors come out. So 218 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,759 you can imagine how slow that would be on an 219 00:14:34,799 --> 00:14:42,440 iterative basis and how frustrating. And this actually gets back 220 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,720 to a complaint that Salesforce developers in the community have 221 00:14:46,159 --> 00:14:50,440 about working with Salesforce, which is that it's very slow. 222 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,639 It can and like as somebody who went from goot 223 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:59,120 Go to apex, you know, Apex is the is the 224 00:14:59,159 --> 00:15:02,200 development language, this jab alike language they have for Salesforce. 225 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,440 So like with Go, I could just you known't compile things, 226 00:15:06,559 --> 00:15:10,320 you know, hit you know, recompile or whatever, go and 227 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,440 I'd have like ten seconds between a coding change and 228 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,679 being able to see if it worked. With Salesforce, that 229 00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:20,799 can go out to maybe two or three minutes sometimes, right, 230 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:25,840 So when you submit a package to either your Scratch 231 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:31,159 org or even you know, a Sandbox org for testing, 232 00:15:31,759 --> 00:15:34,360 it's still going to take you know, like ninety seconds 233 00:15:34,399 --> 00:15:38,240 two minutes that for that submission to go in. So 234 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:43,840 I think Salesforce developers are always complaining about this this 235 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:48,600 flow of work thing, and the way that you can 236 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,039 fix that as a vendor is to do kind of 237 00:15:54,039 --> 00:15:57,759 what Elements is doing, which is to create what I 238 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:04,360 call a very complete digital twin of your subjects SaaS 239 00:16:04,399 --> 00:16:11,480 system within the DevOps product that you're working with. So 240 00:16:12,879 --> 00:16:19,879 Elements has a separate like AWS thing running where they 241 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:24,919 essentially ingest all of the metadata from an org and 242 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,559 convert it into like a graph database or some other 243 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,320 kind of representation that they can then manipulate. And then 244 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,639 they can use that to do something which is very 245 00:16:35,799 --> 00:16:41,080 essential in Salesforce, which is called impact analysis. So like 246 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,399 if the boss says, oh, we got to have another 247 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,919 you know, shipping type in the shipping module or whatever, 248 00:16:50,679 --> 00:16:55,679 then that thing needs to be defined in what they 249 00:16:55,720 --> 00:17:00,480 call a picklist in Salesforce. And when you change the 250 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,960 picklist though, you could actually impact a whole bunch of 251 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,240 different things, you know, different screens all over the place, 252 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:13,359 apex code, user interface mechanisms, and other things like that. 253 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,440 So by having a digital twin, you're able to easily 254 00:17:19,279 --> 00:17:24,039 pick do what I call impact analysis or change intelligence 255 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,640 is another word they use for that. My favorite term 256 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,960 is blast radius for sure. You know, like like when 257 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,240 you when you make a change, what's the blast radius 258 00:17:34,279 --> 00:17:38,000 potential of that particular change? And so that's a that's 259 00:17:38,039 --> 00:17:41,759 a critical and that's just one thing, one example that 260 00:17:41,799 --> 00:17:45,039 you can't get out of salesforce and that you do. 261 00:17:45,079 --> 00:17:52,559 You need a DevOps service provider to help you delve 262 00:17:52,599 --> 00:17:56,200 into that and to help you organize that stuff. 263 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: So let me pause you real quick right there and 264 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,880 like reach out the problem here for our listeners. So 265 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:08,200 with these large enterprise style SASS, I think you're describing 266 00:18:08,279 --> 00:18:12,039 two problems here. One is you never know what the 267 00:18:12,079 --> 00:18:15,960 true state is. So someone with the appropriate permissions could 268 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:20,079 go in make a change to the environment and you 269 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:25,119 don't have any way of tracking that change to see 270 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,039 what was actually impacted, aside from asking that person, hey, 271 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:31,839 would you do and getting their typical response nothing. 272 00:18:32,759 --> 00:18:33,519 Speaker 3: And then the. 273 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,839 Speaker 1: Other one, the other aspect of this is if you 274 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,920 want to introduce new features or capabilities to your system, 275 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,079 you don't have any way to create like a staging 276 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,480 area and test your changes before you apply to production. 277 00:18:49,559 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 3: Correct. Correct. So those are those are both capabilities that 278 00:18:55,039 --> 00:19:00,519 DevOps products, salesforce and SaaS stevops products that you do. 279 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,319 And the most popular salesforce s deevops product is from 280 00:19:05,319 --> 00:19:09,759 a company called gear Set. They're in England and the 281 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:16,359 simulated deployment is the most popular feature of that product. 282 00:19:16,519 --> 00:19:20,759 So that's and it's also affordable, so like for two 283 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,200 hundred and fifty bucks a year or whatever to get 284 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,680 a seat for that thing. Yes, yeah, it's pretty cheap, 285 00:19:28,839 --> 00:19:33,000 and it'll save you a ton of time. Basically, it's 286 00:19:33,279 --> 00:19:34,240 that iteration. 287 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, at that price, it doesn't even need to save 288 00:19:37,079 --> 00:19:38,519 you more than a few minutes per year. 289 00:19:40,319 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. No. And and gear sets easy to buy too. 290 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,599 That's another reason why they're popular. They kind of have 291 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:53,039 a you know, a PLG product led growth concept where 292 00:19:53,039 --> 00:19:54,920 they just try to make it easy to use, easy 293 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,400 to buy, you don't have to talk to a sales rep, 294 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:00,880 where with most of the other products, is more like 295 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,079 an enterprise sales Yeah, sales loop where you got to 296 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,480 kind of delve into dealing with somebody and then coming 297 00:20:08,559 --> 00:20:10,559 up with a license agreement. 298 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,799 Speaker 2: Jillian, you were about to say something, Yeah, I. 299 00:20:14,799 --> 00:20:17,799 Speaker 4: Was just wondering who is kind of the target audience 300 00:20:17,839 --> 00:20:20,000 for this, because on the one hand, we have salesforce, 301 00:20:20,039 --> 00:20:23,119 which is you know, like a sales tool, right, and 302 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,160 then on the other hand, we're talking about DevOps and 303 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,279 from the you know places that I've been at the 304 00:20:29,319 --> 00:20:32,519 sales and marketing team is not necessarily going to know 305 00:20:32,599 --> 00:20:35,200 where I want to have anything to do with any 306 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,599 type of DevOps project. Right if they could be running 307 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,200 things off of their laptop and accel or whatever, they 308 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,240 probably would and would have nothing to do with somebody 309 00:20:45,319 --> 00:20:47,000 like me. So I'm just wondering, what are kind of 310 00:20:47,039 --> 00:20:49,839 the target audiences of these different tools. 311 00:20:50,839 --> 00:20:54,319 Speaker 3: Well, that's changed over the years, so I think that's 312 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:59,119 important to realize. So the Salesforce has evolved over the 313 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:04,400 last let's say eight or nine years into an enterprise platform, 314 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,599 so it's more like an application delivery platform than a 315 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:15,079 pure CRM than it was in the past. And also, 316 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,480 if there are several customers out there, salesforce customers out 317 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,559 there who are spending in excess of one hundred million 318 00:21:22,599 --> 00:21:28,279 dollars a year on Salesforce and kind of the minimum 319 00:21:28,319 --> 00:21:32,200 for a fortune five hundred type company, the minimum expenditure 320 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,160 is in the tens of millions. So because of that, 321 00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:41,240 a lot of the responsibility for maintaining Salesforce has moved 322 00:21:41,519 --> 00:21:44,880 off of the departments and into the office of the CIA. 323 00:21:47,039 --> 00:21:49,640 So I think that that's part of the explanation for 324 00:21:50,079 --> 00:21:54,920 why people care about DevOps is in Salesforce now, and 325 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,160 it's been it may have been taken out of the 326 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:03,240 hands of some of the departmental because that they want 327 00:22:03,279 --> 00:22:10,200 to increase efficiency. But I think, Jillian, you're right that everybody, 328 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,680 you know, there are lots of people out there who 329 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:17,200 could care less about DevOps and really want to use 330 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:21,559 Salesforce kind of like what they've been telling you. How 331 00:22:21,559 --> 00:22:26,079 they've been telling you. 332 00:22:24,599 --> 00:22:27,519 Speaker 4: For marketing tool, I thought it was like a more 333 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,480 robust like HubSpot or something. 334 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:31,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. 335 00:22:31,599 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 4: A contractor thing and I have like Harvest and HubSpot 336 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,839 for emails. I thought that it was a fancier version 337 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,519 of that. And now I'm finding out that I was 338 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:39,279 so wrong. 339 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 3: Is well, you're not, of course, are not wrong, but 340 00:22:43,319 --> 00:22:45,720 I mean, there's just the they it's more like they 341 00:22:45,759 --> 00:22:48,720 want it to be bigger. And the other thing to 342 00:22:48,759 --> 00:22:52,079 appreciate about salesforces is that when they're in a big 343 00:22:52,079 --> 00:22:56,960 company selling, their number one goal is to have multiple clouds, 344 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:58,960 as they call it. So they have their sales cloud, 345 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,319 their marketing cloud out, their commerce cloud. Now, they have 346 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,160 data cloud, now, they have you know, all these other 347 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,960 things that are kind of all designed to work well. 348 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:14,680 Actually they're not well designed to work together, dirty little 349 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,400 secret out there, but and they're trying to make them 350 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,440 all work together. They're actually rewriting. 351 00:23:19,039 --> 00:23:20,279 Speaker 4: Somebody doing their best. 352 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 3: They are, you know, I'm a critic of them, and 353 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,640 I always like to, you know, have a little empathy 354 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:32,680 in my criticism. But they're, yeah, they're they're trying. They're 355 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:38,960 trying to do that. But I think they definitely want 356 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,000 the attention on their product to be at the CIO level. 357 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,880 And a lot of vendors now are in the salesforce 358 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,519 ecosystem are kind of like turning their sales pitches in 359 00:23:50,559 --> 00:23:54,680 that direction. Where before the sales pitches need to be 360 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,839 used to be more in a land and expand kind 361 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,839 of philosophy, so that they would be pitching to the trailblazers, 362 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,759 would be pitching to the sales managers, would be pitching to, 363 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:11,720 you know, the people who are actually using these products more. 364 00:24:12,319 --> 00:24:15,839 But the pitch has definitely turned more to the CEO 365 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:22,319 CIO level pitch and like. And also let's look for 366 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,960 a minute at where DevOps is most prominent in salesforce, 367 00:24:26,079 --> 00:24:31,880 and it's it's almost always in a critical application. So 368 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:38,240 there's a salesforce partner out there called Encino and Capital 369 00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:42,599 ci n O and they are a multi billion dollar 370 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:48,200 valuation public company that that runs on top of Salesforce 371 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:53,799 and what they do is banking, so there will do 372 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:59,200 financial transactions and banking service. So you can imagine that 373 00:25:00,559 --> 00:25:03,880 the people who are running and Sino installations definitely want 374 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,799 DevOps right because they they definitely want to be able 375 00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:11,480 to have a record of all the changes they made 376 00:25:11,519 --> 00:25:14,680 to their system. They have validation protocols, they have q 377 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,440 A protocols and they and they have to sustain them. 378 00:25:19,799 --> 00:25:23,759 And there's actually a DevOps company that's pretty much devoted 379 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,359 to that one sector and it's called auto Rabbit. It's 380 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:33,160 a cute name, huh yeah. The their annual conference is 381 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:34,119 called dev hops. 382 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:39,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, good job. 383 00:25:40,839 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 3: Yeah. I like auto Rabbit. They have some Greek people 384 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,200 there and and they they're very rigorous in terms of 385 00:25:48,599 --> 00:25:52,759 the security aspects. It often gets folded into salesforce DevOps too, 386 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:58,079 like static security analysis and and other things like that. 387 00:25:58,319 --> 00:26:02,000 So yeah, I think the reason why there's been a 388 00:26:02,039 --> 00:26:08,440 transition from Salesforce being kind of this this SaaS platform 389 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,359 that you just use to being something that has to 390 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:17,200 have like a change management process associated with it is 391 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:23,920 mainly the introduction of critical applications into it. There was 392 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,680 another product used to be on Salesforce called Viva. Made 393 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,680 a heard of them. They're a big, another giant software 394 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,160 company who services pharmaceutical industry. So you know, like I 395 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,839 used to work at Genetic, and it totally reminds me 396 00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:44,240 of what we're doing. Is kind of like the software 397 00:26:44,319 --> 00:26:47,839 QA and validation that we had to do for the FDA, 398 00:26:48,519 --> 00:26:50,119 you know, like a Genetic we had to like have 399 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,440 a protocol for for how we like did all the 400 00:26:53,519 --> 00:26:57,920 rat lab way, you know, so that we could produce 401 00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,880 that protocol to the FDA and say this is how 402 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,920 we weight all the rats, and and the similar thing 403 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:10,000 happens with software too, right, So they that that's where 404 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,359 this kind of culture came from, I think, and it's 405 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,000 it's now been extended more into Salesforce. 406 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 2: So what are the. 407 00:27:21,599 --> 00:27:26,319 Speaker 1: Like In my experience, very few people who really need DevOps. 408 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 2: Know that DevOps is the thing they need. 409 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,079 Speaker 1: So what does a conversation look like for you when 410 00:27:30,079 --> 00:27:34,279 you're talking to people that clues you in to say, oh, 411 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,119 here's what you're missing, here's here's what this problem is 412 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:37,839 describing to me. 413 00:27:40,599 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 3: I think it's release management problems. That's that's the other 414 00:27:45,599 --> 00:27:50,839 essentially equivalent description for what the field is in Salesforce 415 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,240 because like I mentioned before, the there is so many 416 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,920 speed bumps and roadblocks to developers to to get the 417 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:05,640 is going. So if you're what a lot of these 418 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,839 products do is they offer you cic D pipeline automation 419 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,839 as well, so they kind of give you a clicking 420 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:18,359 interface to let you do pipelines. And again it's it's 421 00:28:18,759 --> 00:28:23,799 more compatible with the Salesforce trailblazer kind of profile to 422 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,400 have that. So I think it's it's a common pain 423 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:36,599 point in almost every Salesforce shop that does customization is 424 00:28:36,599 --> 00:28:45,599 is this. And they also know that the vendor ecosystem 425 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,880 is out there to service them because if you're part 426 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:55,240 of the whole Salesforce, you know Dreamforce World Tour thing, 427 00:28:55,359 --> 00:28:58,240 you know all all of their outbound communication and their 428 00:28:58,279 --> 00:29:02,480 partnership programs and everything. There are companies like Capato and 429 00:29:02,559 --> 00:29:06,519 gear Set and flows some and all these companies are upfront, 430 00:29:07,119 --> 00:29:12,000 you know in terms of their partnership, and Salesforce actually 431 00:29:12,039 --> 00:29:16,279 has investment relationships with some of these like Capato, and 432 00:29:17,079 --> 00:29:24,240 they does the Sales Force frequently recommends them to solve 433 00:29:24,319 --> 00:29:30,480 problems for big people. So I think people realize that 434 00:29:30,599 --> 00:29:34,640 the release management in Salesforce is still broken, still a 435 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,119 lot of problems with it, and you probably need some 436 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,759 vendor help to help you get through it. 437 00:29:41,359 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure. 438 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: Just thinking about it from a Salesforce perspective, you know 439 00:29:45,759 --> 00:29:48,920 how they started and where they got to. Now you're 440 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,000 dealing with thirty years of legacy code and now you're like, oh, hey, 441 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,000 let's do this new thing. I would imagine that that's 442 00:29:56,039 --> 00:29:57,279 not an easy implementation. 443 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,279 Speaker 3: No, it's not. It's uh. I think you get a 444 00:30:03,279 --> 00:30:07,799 lot of some of these tools are bought and not used. Yeah. Uh, 445 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,799 that shelfware is a big problem in Salesforce ecosystem. The 446 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:20,400 I think they people are are always looking for solutions 447 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,799 to this kind of thing. And especially if you have 448 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:30,160 that external pressure of like uh, you know, a QA 449 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,680 officer or somebody like that in your organization, who's going 450 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,000 to you know, be looking down your shoulder, or if 451 00:30:36,039 --> 00:30:40,640 you have external regulatory concerns or things like that. I 452 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:46,240 think that that really is the dividing line. I think 453 00:30:46,359 --> 00:30:50,599 I think of all these companies, like I would say, 454 00:30:50,599 --> 00:30:56,480 there's about it's something like about a billion dollar market 455 00:30:56,599 --> 00:31:01,240 I think for all the software and services for stev ops, 456 00:31:01,319 --> 00:31:05,440 So that might be a little bigger than the people 457 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,480 have thought. I think about a quarter of that is 458 00:31:08,559 --> 00:31:12,240 software and about three quarters of that would be services 459 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,960 from people like you know Accenture or whoever. You know 460 00:31:17,119 --> 00:31:21,559 global system integrators who are consultant houses that frequently come 461 00:31:21,559 --> 00:31:26,680 in and and and do this kind of thing. So 462 00:31:27,079 --> 00:31:29,880 I think the other thing that I think we want 463 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,279 to talk about today, and we can kind of switch 464 00:31:33,559 --> 00:31:36,200 subjects a little bit here is is like three years 465 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,000 ago I wrote this blog post where I said predicted 466 00:31:40,039 --> 00:31:43,720 that SaaS deevops was going to be a thing. And 467 00:31:44,279 --> 00:31:47,240 I recently was talking to one of my old customers, 468 00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:53,119 Op Sarah, and and they have they're out there really 469 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,559 trying to make this saastevops thing work. And here's the 470 00:31:57,599 --> 00:32:01,319 thing that they've noticed talking to customers now, is that 471 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,799 at the CIO level, or maybe at the Center of 472 00:32:04,839 --> 00:32:09,160 excellence level, you do have a lot of people now 473 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:14,640 thinking about how to manage every business platform in their company. 474 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,319 So you have what is I've heard some crazy numbers 475 00:32:19,359 --> 00:32:21,680 like if you're a fortune five hundred, you have maybe 476 00:32:22,599 --> 00:32:27,200 up to one thousand different applications running in your organization, 477 00:32:28,039 --> 00:32:32,759 and maybe if you're a department, you might have fifty 478 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,960 different online apps or SaaS apps that you could be 479 00:32:37,079 --> 00:32:41,359 using for this kind of thing. So I think the 480 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,119 same kind of momentum that we saw in Salesforce, where 481 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,599 they become it becomes more critical, it becomes more widespread, 482 00:32:50,799 --> 00:32:53,680 it becomes harder to manage, so that it kind of 483 00:32:53,759 --> 00:32:57,920 rolls up to the CIO level for concern. This is 484 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,000 happening with other products as well. Obvious ones like s 485 00:33:02,039 --> 00:33:06,359 A P four Hanna or or you know, like oracle 486 00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:09,920 ERP or something like that is one of them, but 487 00:33:10,039 --> 00:33:17,599 even things like Jira or things like HubSpot or things 488 00:33:17,759 --> 00:33:25,960 like Zendesk is a big one. So people, there's an 489 00:33:26,039 --> 00:33:28,960 expression there's a thing out there now that I think 490 00:33:29,079 --> 00:33:31,680 kind of goes hand in hand with the platform engineering 491 00:33:31,759 --> 00:33:39,839 movement actually that CIOs want some sort of universal business 492 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:47,039 platform system that they can use to do that. And 493 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:52,960 I've seen various salesforce DevOps companies, just a handful of 494 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,599 them have been successful. Two of them I want to salto. 495 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,640 Another one is up Sarah to kind of do this, 496 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,519 to have like a code user interface to do SaaS 497 00:34:03,599 --> 00:34:07,960 DevOps on different application products, But I kind of have 498 00:34:08,039 --> 00:34:11,960 a feeling that it managers are looking for the solution 499 00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:18,639 right now that they want to have a universal application 500 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,159 to be a digital twin manager for all of their 501 00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:24,800 different SaaS products. 502 00:34:26,119 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. 503 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,639 Speaker 1: For sure, there's a big risk factor there as well, 504 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:34,480 because we pretty rapidly ran to the SaaS world and 505 00:34:34,559 --> 00:34:37,199 now in hindsight, you can look back and say, oh, wait, 506 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,960 all of our business critical data is not ours. It's 507 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:47,559 sitting in a SaaS somewhere, and so how do number one, 508 00:34:47,599 --> 00:34:51,880 how do I manage the control and permissions in that? 509 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,039 And also what's the blast radius when that SaaS provider 510 00:34:56,079 --> 00:34:56,679 gets hacked? 511 00:34:58,639 --> 00:35:00,760 Speaker 3: Oh right, Yeah, I mean it's all as of security 512 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:06,920 and safety considerations and data governance and and retention problems there. 513 00:35:07,039 --> 00:35:09,400 I think I think the a lot of people are 514 00:35:09,559 --> 00:35:14,480 kind of over the idea of the SaaS data being 515 00:35:14,519 --> 00:35:18,960 stored in somebody else's computer being not your data, you know. 516 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,239 I think that most people have an export capability, and 517 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,719 I think that the success as SaaS is kind of 518 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,320 like an indicator that people are are are getting over that. 519 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:36,760 But I think the they definitely want to have some 520 00:35:37,119 --> 00:35:45,480 way to consolidate DevOps sprawl in their organizations, because this 521 00:35:45,559 --> 00:35:49,079 is I think something you're seeing that goes along with 522 00:35:49,159 --> 00:35:51,199 these separate business systems. So if you're going to have 523 00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:54,119 a salesforce DevOps team, you're going to have an SAP 524 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:59,199 DevOps team, You're going to have maybe a Jura DevOps team. 525 00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:02,599 So I think that if you're a CIO and you're 526 00:36:02,599 --> 00:36:08,239 trying to consolidate tool usage and trying to get people 527 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:13,599 to work together better, I think that the looking at 528 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,800 how you now have release management processes and critical infrastructure 529 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:24,599 processes associated with these SaaS products, that that there's a 530 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,440 SAS DevOps discipline that could be developed around this that 531 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,360 that would consolidate and systematize your ability to manage all 532 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,760 these things. 533 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:41,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, it almost strikes me as very similar to back 534 00:36:41,079 --> 00:36:46,519 in the nineties when you were doing desktop configuring, Like 535 00:36:46,519 --> 00:36:48,480 when you were building, like if you had a salesforce 536 00:36:48,519 --> 00:36:51,159 of two hundred people, you know, you only made it 537 00:36:51,199 --> 00:36:53,239 through the first two or three computers before you were 538 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,400 looking for some way to automate it, and then that 539 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,840 took you into the world of like modifying the Windows 540 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,559 registry and and all of that kind of stuff. 541 00:37:01,599 --> 00:37:03,559 Speaker 2: It feels very similar to that. 542 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, like in other words, taking a bunch of 543 00:37:10,039 --> 00:37:17,840 crazy configurations to trying to manage them under one roof Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's. 544 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 4: Were there biolinics. 545 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:23,880 Speaker 1: Well, I think that's where we all ended up. But 546 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,239 now here we are facing the same problem again. 547 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,039 Speaker 4: No, I just I just remember, like you know, a 548 00:37:31,079 --> 00:37:33,840 certain team trying so hard to get all the bioformatics 549 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:38,400 applications bundled with one distro of Linux, and I don't 550 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:43,079 know they really tried. Okay, you guys they tried was 551 00:37:43,119 --> 00:37:45,480 Biolinus and that was that was my job to manage 552 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:46,000 that for like a. 553 00:37:46,039 --> 00:37:48,159 Speaker 3: Year, BioLinux. 554 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,159 Speaker 4: BioLinux. Yeah, it was. It was like a I think 555 00:37:52,159 --> 00:37:54,440 a distribution of Hubantu that just had a lot of 556 00:37:55,079 --> 00:37:58,360 bioformatic software pre installed. So it had like R and 557 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,039 Blast and all like the mixed off all the top 558 00:38:01,119 --> 00:38:02,239 general mix software at the. 559 00:38:02,159 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 3: Time you could, I don't know, sounds like a project. 560 00:38:07,199 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 4: Very small gene. Oh my gosh, I don't. 561 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:13,079 Speaker 3: Know that that was. That was a while ago. 562 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 4: I think that was that was a while ago. 563 00:38:15,519 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 564 00:38:17,559 --> 00:38:21,559 Speaker 4: You're talking about desktop management. That was my job for 565 00:38:21,639 --> 00:38:24,360 a little bit was to install BioLinux on all the 566 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:25,599 new Scientist computers. 567 00:38:27,039 --> 00:38:30,800 Speaker 1: So do you think companies like Salesforce have a roadmap 568 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,920 of taking this problem in house and bundling it as 569 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,679 part of Salesforce or you think they're going to rely 570 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:42,480 on the external vendors and support them and solving it. 571 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 3: I think the solid answer is the external vendors are 572 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:52,719 the ones to to to rely on. I think because 573 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,800 of generative AI. I think that there will be disruption 574 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:01,880 though in DevOps right now. And I think maybe a 575 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,679 year ago there was a rumor going around or it 576 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,199 might have been just a hope from the Copato people 577 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:14,760 that Salesforce might buy Capato, and after they bought own 578 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,760 back up recently that for over a billion dollars that 579 00:39:21,519 --> 00:39:26,519 so that possibility came up again. But if I was 580 00:39:28,559 --> 00:39:31,079 you know, look, if I was an advisor for Salesforce 581 00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:32,840 on this, I would say maybe try to hold off 582 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:38,159 on that because the uh just dovops is going to 583 00:39:38,159 --> 00:39:43,000 be highly disrupted by AI. I think, like like like, 584 00:39:43,119 --> 00:39:44,800 For example, I was telling you the story about the 585 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:50,000 digital twin for example, So that's so if what that 586 00:39:50,119 --> 00:39:55,480 required to create was to ingest all of the metadata 587 00:39:55,519 --> 00:39:58,519 from a salesforce Org and then create a structure around 588 00:39:58,519 --> 00:40:01,119 it so that you could then use it traverse it 589 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,840 in some way like a graph database for example. And 590 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:11,079 you can actually achieve that same functionality now by simply 591 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,000 ingesting all of the XML metadata and just putting it 592 00:40:15,079 --> 00:40:19,559 in a giant blob or rag or into an organized 593 00:40:19,599 --> 00:40:23,239 semantic database is the better way to do it. And 594 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:27,000 then you can use an LLM to get the same results. 595 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,000 So you can use an LLM to find a blast 596 00:40:32,079 --> 00:40:36,440 radius for a chain proposed change without creating a graph database. 597 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,719 So that means a new entrant in Salesforce DevOps can 598 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:47,440 possibly have the same kind of capability that that you know, 599 00:40:47,519 --> 00:40:51,199 elements Cloud and Penia and few of these others have 600 00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:56,039 to find the blast radius with almost. 601 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,679 Speaker 2: No coding all right on. 602 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:03,679 Speaker 3: Okay, So so this is just one example of the 603 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:08,239 revolutionary capabilities of of a I when it when it 604 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:13,119 comes to two DevOps. So I have a like there 605 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,360 was a company in y combinators current batch called s 606 00:41:17,599 --> 00:41:22,800 r dot a I. There's an intriguing r L and 607 00:41:23,039 --> 00:41:29,440 they're doing Salesforce DevOps with the natural language. So you 608 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,039 would be able to uh give it a command like 609 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:40,119 take uh a deployment from sandbox A and deploy it 610 00:41:40,199 --> 00:41:46,519 to user testing sandbox B just with a command like that, 611 00:41:46,639 --> 00:41:51,119 just with natural language. And I think that this crowd 612 00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:55,360 is the listeners here kind of understand how potent that 613 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,400 would be because that that that would invoke a whole 614 00:41:59,679 --> 00:42:04,800 pipe line process. And also what this company claims they 615 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:11,760 can do is do repair errors that occur in the pipeline, 616 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,719 so you know, self healing kind of capabilities with that, 617 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:17,719 which is the thing that AI seems to be really 618 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:23,000 great at in terms of root cause analysis for errors. 619 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,280 So I think to answer your question, I think that 620 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,400 they may have been thinking about acquiring Capato or one 621 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,760 of the other ones maybe a year ago, because it 622 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,480 is an obvious thing and they're kind of moving out 623 00:42:34,519 --> 00:42:38,880 of this no acquisitions phase that they were in. But 624 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,760 I think right now the field is up for grabs. 625 00:42:45,559 --> 00:42:47,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, now I see that because. 626 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:54,800 Speaker 1: In the model you just described, like the the capabilities 627 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,000 of using an LLLM to do that would just dwarf 628 00:42:58,039 --> 00:43:01,400 the capabilities of any team trying to do it by 629 00:43:01,679 --> 00:43:05,440 forcing people to follow procedures and policies. 630 00:43:07,679 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And I think also it's just the code 631 00:43:12,079 --> 00:43:17,519 generation aspect of of AI as well that I think 632 00:43:17,559 --> 00:43:22,000 that's considered to be part of Salesforce DevOps. Now, Salesforce 633 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,320 has an agent let's or I should call it a 634 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,880 copilot works kind of like it a co pilot. Even 635 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:37,559 though market's copilots, they still got some they uh yeah, 636 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:44,280 they still have the capability to generate code and and 637 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,360 that kind of thing. But and that's part of DevOps. 638 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,800 But I don't think that that they're going to be 639 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,760 supporting it very much, honestly. And I try to get 640 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,719 into that because like this the publisher of Salesforce DevOps 641 00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,199 dot net, it's kind of like my job to figure 642 00:43:59,199 --> 00:44:02,440 out for the community, you know, where the solutions are 643 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,760 going to come from. And you know, like they have 644 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,440 a product called Salesforce DevOps Center, and it's kind of terrible. 645 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:15,840 It just it hasn't been updated. There's the they have 646 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:20,199 a very sluggish pipeline of features that they're that they're 647 00:44:20,199 --> 00:44:25,800 putting in. If you're aware of how Salesforce operates internally politically, 648 00:44:26,079 --> 00:44:29,519 you kind of realize that this is a kind of 649 00:44:29,559 --> 00:44:32,400 like a group that's that's sitting in a non revenue 650 00:44:32,639 --> 00:44:37,280 position within Salesforce, so that they have no product that 651 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,719 you could put a revenue number on. So if you 652 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,880 don't have that in Salesforce, you're at a disadvantage. 653 00:44:46,119 --> 00:44:46,920 Speaker 2: To making money. 654 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And I think that this like one thing 655 00:44:52,039 --> 00:44:55,320 I like to compare Salesforce and Microsoft in the in 656 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,320 this respect. I think Microsoft for me as a developer, 657 00:44:59,559 --> 00:45:02,639 as as somebody who uses tools and was looking for 658 00:45:02,679 --> 00:45:06,239 things to put together all the time, Microsoft does it right, 659 00:45:06,599 --> 00:45:09,440 you know what They basically they're going to create an API, 660 00:45:09,639 --> 00:45:12,960 create an interface, and they're going to service the developers first. 661 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,480 They're going to make sure that developers have all the 662 00:45:15,519 --> 00:45:19,920 tools in order to create these applications, and Salesforce does 663 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,079 it kind of backwards. They're going to make sure that 664 00:45:22,119 --> 00:45:24,320 the trailblazers have all the tools to do the CLICKI 665 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:30,880 thing first, but then then the the DevOps capabilities or 666 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:36,599 the apex coders or even a flow coder capability is 667 00:45:36,639 --> 00:45:41,360 added later. You know, they got to get this functionality 668 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:47,519 out the door that people can buy. And it's it's 669 00:45:47,639 --> 00:45:51,760 that mentality that you know, it's just kind of like 670 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,360 a gigantic difference in the founders between Bill Gates and 671 00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:00,480 Mark Benioff. You know that you have, you know somebody 672 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,000 who wants to create a tools that developers can use, 673 00:46:04,199 --> 00:46:09,239 and that's not the mentality at Salesforce. So the DevOps 674 00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,199 industry is basically compensating for that. 675 00:46:12,079 --> 00:46:13,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And that's been the. 676 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,519 Speaker 1: Pattern I've seen a lot in my career in startups. 677 00:46:18,639 --> 00:46:22,199 You you know, you have two types of startups from 678 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,480 that perspective. You have the ones who are just like 679 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:29,360 ship it, or the ones who think about the long term, 680 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:31,639 you know, how do we support this, how do we 681 00:46:31,679 --> 00:46:34,320 configure out, how do we maintain it? And are they're 682 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,519 a little more deliberate in there the delivery. But I 683 00:46:37,639 --> 00:46:42,159 tend to lean towards the former with just ship it, 684 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,480 because odds are from a startup perspective, odds are your 685 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,360 product's going to fail, So you want to fail as 686 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,480 quickly as possible. And in the off chance that it 687 00:46:52,559 --> 00:46:55,679 doesn't fail, well, now you've got money, and with money 688 00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:57,960 you can pretty much solve all the bad decisions you 689 00:46:58,039 --> 00:46:58,719 made early on. 690 00:47:01,119 --> 00:47:04,280 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that's I tend to agree. I mean, I 691 00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:08,840 think my inclination as a developer is to kind of 692 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,400 go down the wrong road here, which is to make it, 693 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:15,039 make it perfect. Yeah, you know, I think I kind 694 00:47:15,039 --> 00:47:17,800 of have that O C D A D d uh 695 00:47:19,559 --> 00:47:22,719 uh thing that a lot of developers have, which is, 696 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,519 you know, oh but if I just do that, get 697 00:47:25,519 --> 00:47:27,440 this one thing, get the speed going, you know, cut 698 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,679 out this one thing, it'll it'll be perfect and everybody 699 00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:31,400 will buy it. And then the problem is you always 700 00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,960 find some other thing to fix, for sure. Yeah, after 701 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:39,719 that you get into an now, yeah, always new problems. 702 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:43,800 And I think you're right. Is you got to ship 703 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,159 the thing. You got to You gotta get customers, You 704 00:47:46,199 --> 00:47:49,280 got to have your m VP out there. You gotta uh, 705 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,840 you know, talk to people. And yeah, you can fix 706 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,280 bad design design decisions. 707 00:47:53,880 --> 00:48:00,679 Speaker 2: Later, for sure. So what is the what is the 708 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:05,320 this changing landscape look for you? Where if we use the. 709 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,519 Speaker 1: Wayne Gretzky analogy of go, where the puck's gonna be? 710 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:11,119 Where are you lining up for this? 711 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:17,119 Speaker 3: Oh well, I'm uh, I'm interested in cognitive DevOps. Now 712 00:48:17,159 --> 00:48:18,159 that's kind of the thing. 713 00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:21,400 Speaker 2: I hadn't heard that term before that. 714 00:48:23,039 --> 00:48:25,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's my term, cognitive DevOps. 715 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:25,880 Speaker 2: I like it. 716 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:31,159 Speaker 3: Uh, I like to I call it. That's what sr 717 00:48:31,199 --> 00:48:35,920 e dot Ai is doing, is cognitive DevOps. I think 718 00:48:38,039 --> 00:48:44,280 that we're gonna the other thing that's happening for sure, 719 00:48:44,559 --> 00:48:46,599 and I talked to all these companies. I talked to 720 00:48:46,639 --> 00:48:54,159 Salesforce is this agent concept is. I think it's a 721 00:48:54,159 --> 00:48:58,719 little more real than any other part of the generative 722 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,199 AI revolution that we're now in the third year of. 723 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:07,679 I guess the reason why is because there's some serious 724 00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,719 programming and development behind these things. It's not just the lllms. 725 00:49:12,639 --> 00:49:17,960 It's you've got multi stage lms. You've got a you know, 726 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,119 an LM that does the planning, then you've got other 727 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,480 lms that do the actions for example, and then you've 728 00:49:24,519 --> 00:49:30,519 got other ways to kind of conceive of this. And 729 00:49:30,599 --> 00:49:33,880 I think the most interesting way to conceive of this 730 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:40,960 is what I call the virtual employee paradigm, and that 731 00:49:41,039 --> 00:49:42,719 I think that this is where it's going to go. 732 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,840 I think that you're going to have the agents and 733 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,000 this is going to happen in DevOps too, so so 734 00:49:48,039 --> 00:49:52,199 you're going to have be able to hire a virtual 735 00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:58,599 employee that functions like your Salesforce ADMIN. That you're going 736 00:49:58,679 --> 00:50:03,559 to be able to communicate with the VE like a 737 00:50:03,559 --> 00:50:07,679 business person, you know, like you are able to express 738 00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:14,280 your business needs to this your Salesforce admin VE. And 739 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:20,159 then that Salesforce admin ve will actually use RPA or 740 00:50:20,199 --> 00:50:24,079 whatever it needs to do to actually operate the software 741 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:29,519 to implement those changes and to manage manage it for you. 742 00:50:30,639 --> 00:50:34,719 So I believe that most of the DevOps companies have 743 00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,280 a project working on this right now. 744 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:39,679 Speaker 2: Yeah. 745 00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,599 Speaker 1: I can see that being very realistic because when you 746 00:50:42,599 --> 00:50:46,840 think about the common hands on tasks that happen in develops, 747 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:52,599 it's you know, create a Kubernetes pod with these images 748 00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:57,400 and configure a database and add that database connection stream 749 00:50:57,519 --> 00:51:01,639 to this parameter, which are all things that are very 750 00:51:01,679 --> 00:51:07,360 much within the capabilities of an agent like that, right. 751 00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:12,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's exactly, it's essentially. I think the the 752 00:51:12,119 --> 00:51:14,119 way these ves are going to go is they're going 753 00:51:14,159 --> 00:51:19,480 to replace entry level employees first. So that's just the 754 00:51:19,559 --> 00:51:21,639 kind of thing you would give to your DevOps trainee, 755 00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:28,679 right right, and that uh so, so they're going to 756 00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:33,920 be a joy and a boon to senior people like us, 757 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,360 you know that to know how to use all these 758 00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,800 know what needs to be done, and can just give 759 00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,000 out the instructions like you're like you're talking to a 760 00:51:43,079 --> 00:51:47,079 junior person on your team. And that, by the way, 761 00:51:47,199 --> 00:51:51,239 gets into the public policy aspect of of this AI businesses, 762 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:52,760 you know, what's going to happen to all the entry 763 00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:57,639 level chops for sure, what's gonna happen to all all 764 00:51:57,679 --> 00:51:59,159 that kind of stuff. So, you know, I don't want 765 00:51:59,199 --> 00:52:03,239 to be just blight lead talking about virtual employees without 766 00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,880 mentioning that you know, there's obviously a public policy and 767 00:52:06,039 --> 00:52:09,480 human impact to this, and I think it's if you're 768 00:52:09,519 --> 00:52:13,519 a young DevOps person right now, it's you know, I 769 00:52:13,519 --> 00:52:17,360 have no other have nothing to say other than I'm 770 00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:23,400 kind of worried about that because I think that you 771 00:52:23,519 --> 00:52:27,920 look at this ve thing and something that you can 772 00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:33,400 associate with that is what I call VEE economics. And essentially, 773 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,920 if you can hire let's say you needed twenty of 774 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:41,800 these DevOps junior people in your giant company, well you're 775 00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,239 going to start experiencing some economies of scale that you 776 00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:50,039 won't experience with people. Right So on the twentieth one 777 00:52:50,079 --> 00:52:52,280 of this, you're going to get a big discount from 778 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:57,239 whatever service provider that you're getting this from. So there's 779 00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,199 kind of like new economic laws that are that are 780 00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,000 that are happening here, and one of them is you 781 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:07,280 know the law of infinite scale. The basically, you know 782 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,679 you take away the profit margin, and you know, you 783 00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,199 get a service provider like Salesforce and they'll be happy 784 00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:18,320 to provide you all of these agents or virtual employees 785 00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,559 at a at a discount. So now you've got the 786 00:53:21,599 --> 00:53:25,159 prospect of being able to grow your head count without 787 00:53:25,199 --> 00:53:31,800 a linear increase in expenses. So this basic property of 788 00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:37,920 vee economics, I think is what's going to drive uh 789 00:53:38,079 --> 00:53:42,280 this forward, is that this is something that CEOs get 790 00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:48,119 immediately right and that you like, they're there. What is 791 00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:51,239 what does the CEO do? They manage their workforces, they 792 00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:55,239 manage resources, they they they take inputs and outputs, They 793 00:53:55,519 --> 00:54:00,199 think in terms of profit and laws. The they are 794 00:54:00,599 --> 00:54:05,239 extremely interested in this. Like I've talked to the Agent 795 00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:11,559 Force rollout from Salesforce in September was definitely changed the 796 00:54:11,679 --> 00:54:17,440 landscape in terms of their sales. Right now that I've 797 00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:20,519 been talking to system integrators and consultants and they're getting 798 00:54:20,599 --> 00:54:25,840 calls from their CIOs basically because their CEOs are saying, hey, 799 00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,480 you know, I saw what Mark's talking about. I get 800 00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:31,119 this ve economics thing. Get me some of these virtual 801 00:54:31,119 --> 00:54:37,639 employees as quick as possible. And so it's we're seeing 802 00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:44,679 a different shape of demand right now, And I was 803 00:54:45,039 --> 00:54:49,639 talking to another one of these cognitive DevOps companies and 804 00:54:50,159 --> 00:54:55,920 they're actually going in there making the sale based on 805 00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:04,960 what their customer is paying a salesforce admin. So this 806 00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:09,760 to me is kind of revolutionary because it implements what 807 00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,519 people are calling the service as a software model. And 808 00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:18,400 what that means for the software industry is that not 809 00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,960 only are you able to, let's say, get budget out 810 00:55:22,039 --> 00:55:26,800 of an existing IT budget, but now you're able to 811 00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:30,639 get budget out of an existing human resources budget. 812 00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:39,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, that's crazy, and that just yeah, that 813 00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:42,960 gives you you know, you refer to it and sales 814 00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,719 a lot it. You know, it gives you stickiness because 815 00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:50,800 now you can bring multiple decision makers in and create 816 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:52,760 compelling arguments for each of those. 817 00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:00,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's it is wild, I think. So, you know, 818 00:56:00,599 --> 00:56:03,119 where am I looking for things to go? I think 819 00:56:03,559 --> 00:56:06,920 I'm sticking with the DevOps thing. The cognitive DevOps, I 820 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:10,400 think is going to be a huge disruptor. I think 821 00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:20,639 that they're going to slowly get into this area, and 822 00:56:21,039 --> 00:56:24,159 I think that we're going to have pretty soon you're 823 00:56:24,199 --> 00:56:28,159 going to have virtual employees. Let's say within two years. 824 00:56:28,199 --> 00:56:31,519 I'd say, who would be able to manage or release 825 00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:37,360 management process all completely on their own, so that that 826 00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:42,239 would be tremendous in terms of automation and time savings 827 00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:49,719 for the salesforce admins that are left to do that. 828 00:56:50,639 --> 00:56:54,239 Speaker 4: Yeah, that is crazy disruptive when you think about kind 829 00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:56,559 of all the industries that could be applied for, Like 830 00:56:56,599 --> 00:56:59,559 it wasn't too long ago that we had you know, 831 00:56:59,679 --> 00:57:01,960 secon ferries and things to help with scheduling, and now 832 00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:05,000 we have virtual calendars that can do all that. And 833 00:57:05,039 --> 00:57:07,960 I think AI is on just a completely different scale 834 00:57:08,079 --> 00:57:11,280 than even these kind of revolutionary technologies that we've already seen, 835 00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:15,679 like virtual calendars and a word processor, you know, like 836 00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,639 being a word processor used to be people's jobs as well. 837 00:57:20,199 --> 00:57:21,599 For sure, I don't know, it's got to be scared 838 00:57:21,639 --> 00:57:24,719 to be a young person in like who's coming into 839 00:57:24,719 --> 00:57:27,920 the industry now or you know, or thinking about coming in. 840 00:57:28,639 --> 00:57:30,639 Sure it's scary for everybody else too, but I would 841 00:57:30,679 --> 00:57:33,599 be especially scared as the young people because of what 842 00:57:33,639 --> 00:57:35,719 you said about the entry level jobs like just being 843 00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:38,719 obliterated by AI. 844 00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really concerned about that. You know, as a 845 00:57:43,559 --> 00:57:48,639 policy prognosticator, I definitely see a problem there. I also like, 846 00:57:48,679 --> 00:57:53,079 I see this ve economics is like a giant sucking sound, 847 00:57:53,519 --> 00:58:00,639 you know out there that CEOs are locked in. I 848 00:58:00,679 --> 00:58:03,599 think it only took him a few months to get 849 00:58:03,639 --> 00:58:06,360 locked in on this, on this thing. And like here 850 00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:11,639 in Silicon Valley, I couldn't think of a single young 851 00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,800 entrepreneur who isn't thinking about dream who was in dreaming 852 00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:19,639 about building their company this way as well. So and 853 00:58:19,719 --> 00:58:25,920 I think that they're getting tremendous encouragement from the venture capitalists. Also, 854 00:58:26,159 --> 00:58:29,039 this vee economics story, if you bring it to the table, 855 00:58:29,119 --> 00:58:33,199 if as a startup entrepreneur and you're and you are 856 00:58:33,199 --> 00:58:35,519 able to latch onto that, I think that that is 857 00:58:35,559 --> 00:58:41,360 a story that just instantly sells with investors as well. 858 00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:46,199 So I think we're about basically. Another thing I like 859 00:58:46,239 --> 00:58:47,960 to say is we have not reached the peak of 860 00:58:48,039 --> 00:58:53,079 expectations of generative AI. You know, there was a talk 861 00:58:53,159 --> 00:58:57,280 that maybe we had hit that trough of disillusionment for 862 00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:01,880 some referring to the Gartner HiPE cycle graph here and 863 00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,719 the people thought we'd hit the trophic disillusionment with the 864 00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:10,440 enterprise AI this past summer. And would I never felt 865 00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:13,679 that way because of the conviction that I have on 866 00:59:13,719 --> 00:59:16,800 the subject, which like, here's a simple reason why I 867 00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:20,840 have conviction. And I'm sure you've heard this example before. 868 00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:23,199 But let's say you've got a pile of ten legal 869 00:59:23,239 --> 00:59:27,599 briefs and you need a lawyer to kind of examine 870 00:59:27,599 --> 00:59:29,559 those in the context of a case you're working on. 871 00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:34,079 That would have taken you know, the cheapest lawyer you 872 00:59:34,079 --> 00:59:36,880 could have hired and the Philippines or whatever for like, 873 00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:39,039 you know, seventy five bucks an hour to do something 874 00:59:39,079 --> 00:59:42,079 like that. That would have cost you, you know, three 875 00:59:42,159 --> 00:59:44,639 or four hundred dollars, And now that costs you three 876 00:59:44,719 --> 00:59:47,639 or four cents to do the same thing. And that's 877 00:59:47,679 --> 00:59:51,719 actually a reliable application that I'm referring to here, and 878 00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,960 where the hallucinations are not that much of a problem 879 00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:58,119 and you can do things to manage it. So when 880 00:59:58,159 --> 01:00:00,679 you've got anything, it's like a three or for order 881 01:00:00,719 --> 01:00:05,360 of magnitude change in economics. To me, that's like an 882 01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:10,480 inevitable force. It's similar to like the distribution of paper catalogs. 883 01:00:10,559 --> 01:00:14,400 What happened to that in the nineties because it was 884 01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:17,119 literally a thousand times cheaper to send that stuff around 885 01:00:17,119 --> 01:00:21,760 the world as a PDF. Then you know, over the internet, 886 01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:24,800 then you actually print and distribute it. So I think 887 01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:29,960 this is why I have conviction on AI is that 888 01:00:30,039 --> 01:00:33,039 kind of basic cognitive change. And that's actually one of 889 01:00:33,039 --> 01:00:36,440 the second economic laws I've kind of been working on, 890 01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:40,559 which is, you know, this the ability to have cognitive 891 01:00:40,599 --> 01:00:45,719 scale that you can do things with AI that was 892 01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:52,199 previously not possible or was so expensive you couldn't do 893 01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:54,400 it all the time, that you can now do it 894 01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:59,639 with AI. So that's those that's where I think it's going, 895 01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:08,760 and it's I think it's it's generally good because I mean, 896 01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,440 like the abundance side of this equation of this of 897 01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:14,119 this idea is that if we make it easier to 898 01:01:14,159 --> 01:01:18,840 make to build software, more software will get built. Right two. 899 01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:22,159 So that's another thing. I mean, there's there's the market 900 01:01:22,199 --> 01:01:26,039 Andresen quote where he says software will eat the world. Well, 901 01:01:27,239 --> 01:01:29,559 according to Gartner, they're only about thirty or forty percent 902 01:01:29,719 --> 01:01:35,079 done really, so like if you look at the cloud migration, 903 01:01:35,159 --> 01:01:38,519 the we've still got more than half of corporate data 904 01:01:38,559 --> 01:01:44,880 is still on prem So I think it's you know, 905 01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:49,320 there's a long way to go with the stuff. And 906 01:01:49,559 --> 01:01:55,079 I'm pretty sure that cognitive DevOps is probably going to 907 01:01:55,159 --> 01:01:57,760 be one of those things that kind of like seeps 908 01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:01,360 into the background and we take for granted three or 909 01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:03,239 four years from there for sure. 910 01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:07,239 Speaker 1: And I do want to, like, for all the young 911 01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:10,599 listeners listening to the show who are still early in 912 01:02:10,599 --> 01:02:12,679 their career, I want to give them some hope and 913 01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:15,639 not send them away from the episode going, well. 914 01:02:15,599 --> 01:02:16,920 Speaker 2: Dan, that was a buzzkill. 915 01:02:17,239 --> 01:02:20,320 Speaker 1: So, you know, we've seen this in the past, not 916 01:02:21,199 --> 01:02:24,079 exactly like this, but we have seen you know, like 917 01:02:24,239 --> 01:02:26,199 Jillian was mentioned, there used to be a career called 918 01:02:26,199 --> 01:02:28,360 word process or like you were mentioning Vernon, you know, 919 01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:31,039 you used to have people who ran the printing presses 920 01:02:31,119 --> 01:02:33,039 for printing paper catalogs. 921 01:02:33,079 --> 01:02:35,559 Speaker 2: And we saw the outsourcing movements. 922 01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:41,639 Speaker 1: I was a kid, yeah, and we had the outsourcing 923 01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:45,239 movement of the nineties and early two thousands of outsourcing 924 01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:50,280 the tech jobs in the US to other countries. So 925 01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:53,960 there's there's patterns. There's historical patterns you can look at 926 01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:57,480 if you're still early in your career and see what happened. 927 01:02:57,960 --> 01:02:58,679 Speaker 2: Where did those. 928 01:02:58,519 --> 01:03:01,320 Speaker 1: People who were displaced, where did they go? And then 929 01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:04,599 see if there's some parallels here in this type of movement. 930 01:03:05,159 --> 01:03:08,280 And you know, back to the Wayne Gretzky quote, start 931 01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:10,960 steering your career in that direction. 932 01:03:12,519 --> 01:03:14,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you got to look at the you 933 01:03:14,159 --> 01:03:18,760 got to move up the application stack. Essentially, you have to. 934 01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:25,840 I think the thing that folks like us are gifted 935 01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:29,480 at is to be able to understand capabilities and marry 936 01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:38,039 them to problems. Right, So you need to be I 937 01:03:38,119 --> 01:03:41,000 think we're going to have fewer people in it is 938 01:03:41,039 --> 01:03:43,360 definitely a thing, but I think that we're going to 939 01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:47,239 be doing more good work, and we're going to be 940 01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:51,519 doing more work that's actually tied to whatever the enterprise 941 01:03:51,559 --> 01:03:55,800 that you're working for does, because it's a I mean, 942 01:03:56,159 --> 01:03:59,880 we're all familiar with the Phoenix project, right. It's amazing 943 01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:05,920 how many dysfunctional IT organizations there are out there. You know, 944 01:04:06,199 --> 01:04:10,920 we have people who have no idea why they're doing something. 945 01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,440 You know, they have no idea that you know, like 946 01:04:14,519 --> 01:04:17,360 working on this weird salesforce problem is somehow going to 947 01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:22,280 help the company like they can't translate that into that. 948 01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,920 And I think what's got to happen in our profession 949 01:04:26,119 --> 01:04:30,039 is we have to become more aligned with business. For sure, 950 01:04:31,119 --> 01:04:34,519 it was and so I think that if we're able 951 01:04:34,559 --> 01:04:39,599 to use tools like AI and cognitive DevOps to remove 952 01:04:39,679 --> 01:04:43,400 us from some of the daily grind of this and 953 01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:47,639 some of the drudgery that goes along with it. Then 954 01:04:47,679 --> 01:04:50,239 I think we're making progress and we have the ability 955 01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:54,679 to expand out talent so that talent, young talent can 956 01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:57,440 can use their imagination and there are new ways of 957 01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:02,880 thinking and other gifts of youth to you know, participate 958 01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:09,360 in the economy more in terms of constructing solutions and 959 01:05:09,519 --> 01:05:12,199 working more where the rubber meets the road in a 960 01:05:12,239 --> 01:05:17,360 particular organization. I think we're just like, you know, don't 961 01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:20,199 have elevator operators, don't have buggy whip makers. You know, 962 01:05:20,239 --> 01:05:26,639 we might not have more DevOps engineers in the future. 963 01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:30,039 We might have few of those because of automation. But 964 01:05:30,119 --> 01:05:33,639 I think the people if you're looking to marry your 965 01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:40,000 love of technology, your ability to see solutions, your imagination 966 01:05:40,519 --> 01:05:44,480 to pull things together, I think that there's a lot 967 01:05:44,519 --> 01:05:46,639 of business people who would love to hear from you. 968 01:05:47,679 --> 01:05:52,519 Speaker 1: For sure, there's always going to be problems that don't 969 01:05:52,519 --> 01:05:55,320 have solutions, and one way to look at this is 970 01:05:55,320 --> 01:06:00,440 you can shift your daily grind from solving the problem 971 01:06:00,519 --> 01:06:04,920 of why doesn't this doc or container build to a 972 01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:08,280 higher level problem of something that the customers of the 973 01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:11,079 company you're working for are going to value. 974 01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:15,039 Speaker 4: Yeah, I always try to give that advice to, you know, 975 01:06:15,079 --> 01:06:17,440 whenever I'm working with students, are talking to young people, 976 01:06:17,519 --> 01:06:21,239 the very wary of putting yourself in a position where 977 01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:24,679 you don't know why you're doing what you're doing. Always 978 01:06:24,719 --> 01:06:26,760 try to, you know, kind of move up the ladder 979 01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:29,119 to the decision makers, talk to the people who are 980 01:06:29,159 --> 01:06:33,199 actually using the product you're creating, if that's what you're doing, 981 01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:35,719 or that kind of you know, the equivalent and sort 982 01:06:35,719 --> 01:06:37,719 of whatever job it is, do you have because if 983 01:06:37,719 --> 01:06:41,320 you can, if you can keep identifying problems, you can 984 01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:43,599 keep having a job. For the most part, is at 985 01:06:43,679 --> 01:06:45,960 least what I've found. And obviously you know that's not 986 01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:49,199 always a perfect strategy, but I think it's much better 987 01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:52,159 than kind of sitting in your corner and saying I'm 988 01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:55,119 going to be the best Python or Go developer of 989 01:06:55,199 --> 01:06:58,280 all time, right, Like that's that's maybe not the best goal. 990 01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:01,440 It should be instead, want to solve this problem, and 991 01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:06,400 then there are always new problems, you guys. Always they 992 01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:09,320 never end, like they just they never they never stop. 993 01:07:10,239 --> 01:07:16,960 So no uplifting advice. There's always new problems, always, right. 994 01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:19,719 Speaker 3: And I think also it took a lot of resources 995 01:07:19,719 --> 01:07:21,679 and a lot of capabilities to solve some of these 996 01:07:21,679 --> 01:07:25,000 problems with it in the in the past, and now 997 01:07:25,199 --> 01:07:28,960 you could do it with less. So I agree. I 998 01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:32,440 think that there are more problems to be solved always, 999 01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:34,840 and I think that we're going to have a different 1000 01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:40,280 kind of flatter world when it comes to doing this. 1001 01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:44,079 I think there's going to be suer middle managers, fewer 1002 01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:49,000 people trying to function as gatekeepers because we're going to have, 1003 01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:53,000 you know, assistance to help us with some of the stuff, 1004 01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:56,880 for sure. So that's where I think it's going. If 1005 01:07:56,880 --> 01:07:58,840 you want to aim your puck in the right direction, 1006 01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:05,239 I think it's it's for that. 1007 01:08:03,679 --> 01:08:08,480 Speaker 2: Awesome What do you think should we move on to picks. 1008 01:08:09,599 --> 01:08:10,079 Speaker 3: Us? 1009 01:08:10,559 --> 01:08:13,000 Speaker 4: So I'm going to go with the shameless self promotion 1010 01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:15,920 this week. I am opening up I don't know, maybe 1011 01:08:16,039 --> 01:08:19,359 five to ten spots for and actually an AI product 1012 01:08:19,359 --> 01:08:21,159 that I have now that we've you know, had this 1013 01:08:21,279 --> 01:08:24,079 nice end of the show on how AI is going 1014 01:08:24,159 --> 01:08:26,039 to take all the jobs and things. Let me take 1015 01:08:26,079 --> 01:08:28,640 some jobs away from your company. No, I'm just kidding. 1016 01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:34,600 It's cool. Stuff to empower your scientists to do different tasks. 1017 01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:37,119 The most frequent, one frequent one that I see is 1018 01:08:37,159 --> 01:08:40,159 to be able to do literature text mining and throw 1019 01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:43,279 you know, thousands of papers at it and then to 1020 01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:45,439 be able to get some type of information. I work 1021 01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:48,840 in drug discovery, so it's it's mainly drug discovery. I 1022 01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:53,199 do have an article on that. It's called using LLMS 1023 01:08:53,279 --> 01:08:59,319 to query PubMed knowledge bases for Biomedical research and kind 1024 01:08:59,319 --> 01:09:02,079 of like what it says, you can query a PubMed 1025 01:09:02,159 --> 01:09:06,239 you can throw all of your papers at THEAI, and 1026 01:09:06,279 --> 01:09:08,600 then you can tell the AI you don't please summarize 1027 01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:11,079 this for me. So it's a product that I have 1028 01:09:11,199 --> 01:09:15,119 that gives you a chat GPT like interface that your 1029 01:09:15,159 --> 01:09:18,159 scientists can use. But it's all self hosted on AWS, 1030 01:09:18,199 --> 01:09:19,920 so none of your data gets out if you have 1031 01:09:21,159 --> 01:09:24,359 proprietary data, if you have you know, pre clinical data, 1032 01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:26,920 all that kind of stuff, or other data science companies 1033 01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:28,680 that I don't know what you all are doing, but 1034 01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:31,039 it might be useful for you too, I don't know. 1035 01:09:31,199 --> 01:09:33,880 So anyways, it's got the chat GPT like interface, and 1036 01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,479 then it's also got a programmatic interface that you can 1037 01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:41,319 use wherever you have a terminal stage maker HPC wherever 1038 01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:46,560 all the things are. That'll be on my website dabblodepops 1039 01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:50,479 dot com, slash ai if anybody is interested in that 1040 01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:51,119 and would. 1041 01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:55,720 Speaker 2: Like to try it out right on awesome vernon. What'd 1042 01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:56,439 you bring for a pick? 1043 01:09:57,720 --> 01:10:03,479 Speaker 3: Well, I got my website so dot net and invite 1044 01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:08,960 everybody to come by there. Like I said, I'm I'm 1045 01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:13,079 also on LinkedIn vernon keenan all together is my is 1046 01:10:13,119 --> 01:10:16,920 my thing on LinkedIn, and I would just my pick 1047 01:10:17,039 --> 01:10:22,119 is I want people who are complaining about Salesforce ops 1048 01:10:22,239 --> 01:10:26,399 or have complaining about the pricing models and things like 1049 01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:28,920 that to contact me because I'm trying to gather. 1050 01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:30,479 Speaker 2: Input right on. 1051 01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:34,079 Speaker 4: It's not like a support group that could be, that 1052 01:10:34,119 --> 01:10:34,319 could be. 1053 01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:37,199 Speaker 3: It is it is, you. 1054 01:10:37,159 --> 01:10:39,119 Speaker 4: Know, It's just we're gonna get all these people and 1055 01:10:39,159 --> 01:10:42,000 we're all going to have like snacks and fuzzy blankeys and. 1056 01:10:42,039 --> 01:10:46,319 Speaker 3: Just it is. That's what I'm trying to create, is 1057 01:10:46,359 --> 01:10:49,880 just a comfort group where we can all complain and 1058 01:10:50,159 --> 01:10:53,920 and give each other let us know that Salesforce is 1059 01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:58,319 not paying attention to us and this thing. So here's 1060 01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:02,600 but it'll start out with a fine counseling session with 1061 01:11:03,159 --> 01:11:10,520 me to get all your complaints. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, 1062 01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:13,760 So trying to you know, be the trailblazer whisperer here. 1063 01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:17,199 So the more trailblazers who contact me to tell me 1064 01:11:17,199 --> 01:11:20,520 about their problems with data cloud and agent Force, the better. 1065 01:11:21,239 --> 01:11:21,560 Right on? 1066 01:11:22,359 --> 01:11:22,840 Speaker 2: Awesome? 1067 01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:27,319 Speaker 1: All right, my pick this might be one of the 1068 01:11:27,399 --> 01:11:30,680 wildest things I've ever picked. But with the holiday season 1069 01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:33,560 coming up, if you're looking for a gift for someone. 1070 01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,800 Speaker 2: And they are a male, I'm going to suggest Shine 1071 01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:40,399 sty underwear, which. 1072 01:11:42,119 --> 01:11:44,479 Speaker 1: All right, it's hard to get excited about underwear, and 1073 01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:47,319 I was pretty skeptical at first, but I used these. 1074 01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:50,520 I ended up with some and used them extensively a 1075 01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:52,680 year or so ago when I was training to run 1076 01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:54,399 a one hundred k Ultra marathon. 1077 01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:58,800 Speaker 2: So the ones I had, I was to say, that 1078 01:11:58,880 --> 01:11:59,560 is crazy. 1079 01:12:00,119 --> 01:12:02,199 Speaker 4: Okay, anyways, carry on, carry on. 1080 01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:05,439 Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna say my shine Steeds are battle 1081 01:12:05,520 --> 01:12:11,760 tested and they have performed well. So yeah, that's my pick, 1082 01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:13,520 and that's probably the one that's gonna get me kicked 1083 01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:15,760 off of this podcast. But you'll have a pair of 1084 01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:17,640 Shinty to take it. 1085 01:12:18,239 --> 01:12:20,840 Speaker 3: Shinesty's uh boxers or briefs. 1086 01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:27,199 Speaker 1: I like the I like the long leg briefs. 1087 01:12:27,279 --> 01:12:30,039 Speaker 2: Just the the support factor. Mm hmm. 1088 01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:36,479 Speaker 3: Okay, we're going into the chafing aspect of Yeah, of 1089 01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:47,039 the podcast. Absolutely, he will and Jillian, this is fantastic. 1090 01:12:48,239 --> 01:12:50,680 Speaker 2: I really appreciate have you on the show. This was great. 1091 01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:54,399 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for for joining us. And uh, 1092 01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:56,720 feel free to to come back and chat with us 1093 01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:57,560 again at any time. 1094 01:12:58,399 --> 01:12:58,720 Speaker 3: We can. 1095 01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:01,399 Speaker 2: We can do this later and see how our predictions went. 1096 01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:08,000 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, we'll see how my little mission to 1097 01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:10,039 h fixed agent force pricing goes. 1098 01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:11,119 Speaker 2: Right on. 1099 01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:14,079 Speaker 3: That's my current missioncause nobody knows how much. 1100 01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:18,039 Speaker 1: It costs right on, looking forward to good that's a 1101 01:13:18,079 --> 01:13:18,680 big problem. 1102 01:13:19,359 --> 01:13:22,479 Speaker 2: Okay, great yep. To the listeners, thank you guys all 1103 01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:23,079 for listening. 1104 01:13:23,119 --> 01:13:25,520 Speaker 1: Appreciate having you support the show, and we'll see you 1105 01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:26,199 all next week.