Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen.
Speaker 2: What? What's going to happen?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 2: Client?
Speaker 3: Welcome to the Occult Rejects. Today, We've got a very
Speaker 3: very special guest, so many that a bunch of us
Speaker 3: have been really looking forward to talk to and having
Speaker 3: on the show. Today, we got doctor Stephen Flowers, better
Speaker 3: known to room workers worldwide as Edward Thorson. With a
Speaker 3: PhD in Dramatic Languages and Medieval Studies from the University
Speaker 3: of Texas, Flowers have spent over four decades bridging hard
Speaker 3: nosed philology and lived at magical practice. Is one of
Speaker 3: his latest titles, The Revival of the Rooms unfurls a
Speaker 3: five hundred year saga of how scholars, missed, nationalists, and yes,
Speaker 3: even Nazis, have reimagined the Germanic runs.
Speaker 2: Along the way.
Speaker 3: He calls for a new integral rhunology that reunites academic
Speaker 3: rigor with operative craft. Whether you carve stage, consult rum lots,
Speaker 3: or just love hidden history, stay tuned for a tour
Speaker 3: through five centuries of runic revival. But before we get
Speaker 3: to him, let me introduce all the other rejects with
Speaker 3: us today. We'll start with you, Lisa Lisa, the Cult
Speaker 3: Reject Mad Scientists or what is going on?
Speaker 2: How are you?
Speaker 4: How's it going good afternoon? I am really really looking
Speaker 4: forward to this. Thank you for inviting me on the
Speaker 4: Fellow Rejects, and I'm very much looking forward to the
Speaker 4: discussion of the doctor Flowers. We've kind of come across
Speaker 4: him several times and looking at different different books, and
Speaker 4: you know, it was always one of those things and
Speaker 4: we get him on like is it okay?
Speaker 1: You know, like him? Will he say yes?
Speaker 4: So we're very very excited, and thank you for inviting
Speaker 4: me on. The only thing I need to plug is
Speaker 4: a cult search Institute dot org where some of our
Speaker 4: fellow adult rejects to the website some literary work and
Speaker 4: research of the room.
Speaker 2: Thank you listen, Thank you very much.
Speaker 3: Yes, I if I even do remember correctly when I
Speaker 3: was practicing the Occulton and the OTO, I even went through.
Speaker 3: I think his old eighty seven or late eighties book
Speaker 3: is on wounds. So to have him on the show
Speaker 3: is even just like what the hell's But thank you
Speaker 3: very much for joining us, Lisa, and we got jenin
Speaker 3: the ninja What is going on?
Speaker 1: Sir?
Speaker 2: Thanks bas for having me on and this is an amazing,
Speaker 2: huge honor. Thank you so much Neck for inviting me
Speaker 2: on with our of course my fellow rejects and solar
Speaker 2: exile who I guess it's like a reject for today.
Speaker 2: And so if you want to follow me, you can
Speaker 2: follow me on the X Twitter at wukanri Born w
Speaker 2: UK and g Reborn at Threshold Saints, which is both
Speaker 2: IG and X for the show account and I have
Speaker 2: Robbie Marx and Nick will be on the next release
Speaker 2: coronas On So that was coming out Book of Being
Speaker 2: in part three and of course the Great Lodge. So
Speaker 2: if you're interested in our speculative gnostic series, of which
Speaker 2: Solo is absolutely an integral part of, please join us
Speaker 2: on Fridays on X Live.
Speaker 3: Thank you awesome, Thank you very much, Jim and Ricardo, Sir.
Speaker 3: Please let everybody know what your deal is when they
Speaker 3: can find all your amazing works.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Nick, thank you for inviting me. Good afternoon
Speaker 5: to all the panel. Pleasure to meet you, Steven Flowers.
Speaker 5: I'm looking forward to learn from you today and everyone
Speaker 5: can find me at at the day is on the
Speaker 5: screen at Ricarcabo X. Also visit the Institute for Natalphilosophy
Speaker 5: dot org, where you can find a magazine, you can
Speaker 5: find many ways to collaborate, and even our store. So
Speaker 5: looking forward to it.
Speaker 2: Thank you Nick, Oh, thank you Recodo.
Speaker 3: Always appreciate your joining us and we got solo exile
Speaker 3: joining us today. What is going on, sir? Please let
Speaker 3: everybody know what your deal is.
Speaker 6: Well, my deal is well, I'm just some guy. You
Speaker 6: can find me on Twitter at a Solar Underscore exile friend.
Speaker 6: Jim's longtime front of the show, so a long time
Speaker 6: first time. I don't really have any good plug, so
Speaker 6: I do want to say that in my mind, when
Speaker 6: I think of the Father, one of the integral roles
Speaker 6: is to lead the son to the sort of outer
Speaker 6: gate of the temple. And sort of in that spirit,
Speaker 6: I think it's a very cool thing that we get
Speaker 6: to have system as flowers with us on Father's Day.
Speaker 6: I just thought that was an extra cool kind of
Speaker 6: synchronicity because he has brought so many people, like uncountably
Speaker 6: many people either directly or indirectly through his work, you know,
Speaker 6: to those outer gates. So it's really something cool. Happy
Speaker 6: to be here.
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you very much, man. That was touching.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 3: They got me feeling, So Steven Flowers finally well got
Speaker 3: to you. There's only a couple of minutes in, but
Speaker 3: we finally got to you. Doctor Stephen Flowers. Please let
Speaker 3: everybody know who you are, what your deal is, and
Speaker 3: I guess whatever credentials you like to share with everybody
Speaker 3: and where they can find all your amazing.
Speaker 1: Books, well as far as find me. We're sort of
Speaker 1: all my books published works have been collected into a
Speaker 1: site that just all feeds to Amazon, because that's just
Speaker 1: I'm no good at fulfilling orders anymore. I'm too old.
Speaker 1: But is seek the Mysteries dot Com. Seek the Mysteries
Speaker 1: dot Com has all of my work.
Speaker 7: So anyway, Yeah, I have followed my own mentors from
Speaker 7: academia and elsewhere in being quite diverse.
Speaker 1: I think in the kind of books and projects I've
Speaker 1: undertaken over the years. And sometimes people say, oh, well,
Speaker 1: how can you go here and talk about that and
Speaker 1: about moths and things, and then about rooms and then
Speaker 1: about the left hand path. But everything that I do
Speaker 1: comes from a central idea and a central message and concept,
Speaker 1: and that is the idea of Aruna of the mystery
Speaker 1: uh and my motto as it were, is ran tilleruna,
Speaker 1: which means seek the mystery, seek in the direction of
Speaker 1: the mysteries, and of course that's what the ruins are.
Speaker 1: That's what the word roun means is secret or mystery.
Speaker 1: So everything that I do comes from that center of gravity.
Speaker 1: And so it's really all just one big work with
Speaker 1: a lot of different appearances, and so many of my mentors,
Speaker 1: people like Edgar Polme who's one of the great Indo
Speaker 1: Europeanists of his generation. Uh was an expert and I'm
Speaker 1: no no one likes him. I don't claim to be,
Speaker 1: but he was a expert, for example, in not only
Speaker 1: into European things, but African ban two languages and things
Speaker 1: like that. He was a Belgian, spent some time in
Speaker 1: the Congo before it got kicked out in the nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty But so that kind of breadth of interest is
Speaker 1: something that inspired me from the academic world that I
Speaker 1: spent so many years in. And so that explains why
Speaker 1: there are so many things and appearances teaching people who
Speaker 1: taught me and showed me the way, as well as
Speaker 1: this idea of mystery, which is universal found everywhere in
Speaker 1: every culture, except in so far as this odentic paradigm.
Speaker 1: This odentic archetype makes this concept and this thing the
Speaker 1: central focus of this archetypal task. So it is most
Speaker 1: fitting to have most illustrative of this quest to look
Speaker 1: at things through this lens of the odentic archetype. And
Speaker 1: mentioning my mentor Edgar Paula May. He was a great
Speaker 1: expert in the field of the god Odin and wrote
Speaker 1: articles on the subject, most of them in French. But anyway,
Speaker 1: he showed me the way, many many ways that on
Speaker 1: how to think about things. When I went into school
Speaker 1: and started studying religion and comparative religion and mythology and
Speaker 1: all of that sort of thing in an academic setting,
Speaker 1: I was of the opinion and feeling of thought as
Speaker 1: anybody kid might have been. In nineteen seventy three thereabout
Speaker 1: somehow paganism was about nature worship. And I see this
Speaker 1: debated on the Internet even today, and this is like
Speaker 1: the most ludicrous idea one can imagine. It's something that
Speaker 1: has been influenced by nineteenth century or earlier critics of
Speaker 1: paganism and pre Christian religion that all the pagans worship nature,
Speaker 1: but we worship Christ and the spiritual and that's the
Speaker 1: higher and they're the inferior, and so forth. But when
Speaker 1: we really look back at pagan thinkers, they whether they
Speaker 1: are the mythic kinds we see in the Edda in
Speaker 1: Old Norse poetry, or we look at Greek and Roman philosophers,
Speaker 1: in every way, in every dimension, these people had much
Speaker 1: more insight into the world beyond nature than any Christians
Speaker 1: muster and pagan is. The pagan thinking was Christian. So well,
Speaker 1: these people are like studying science and doing all and philosophy,
Speaker 1: and we just simply believe in Christ and that's all
Speaker 1: you need, that kind of attitude and so forth. But he,
Speaker 1: without me asking him a question, it just quickly knew
Speaker 1: exactly the question that was on my mind, and he said, absolutely,
Speaker 1: the Pagans, the ancient Germanic people are not nature worshipers.
Speaker 1: And that's why my early work in academia, in graduate school,
Speaker 1: my master's these this was on the idea of the
Speaker 1: heroic archetype or hero zigord and how he was his
Speaker 1: father reborn in a in all his powers and abilities.
Speaker 1: This is the way that the ancient Germanic people's conceived
Speaker 1: of quote reincarnation, quote that the through family lines, powers, abilities,
Speaker 1: and propensities good and bad would be handed on. That's
Speaker 1: like obvious or should be that they're picking up on
Speaker 1: things that we identify as genetics and other things. But
Speaker 1: there was a whole psychology or anthropology better put in
Speaker 1: the census, studying the whole human being, both physical parts
Speaker 1: and so called spiritual parts, all a sort of spectrum
Speaker 1: of concepts and organs, if you will. And these were
Speaker 1: handed on in a traditional way that we're not somebody
Speaker 1: wasn't saying, now, boys and girls, here we are in
Speaker 1: Sunday school, and this is what you have to believe,
Speaker 1: and this is what the name of this is, and
Speaker 1: repeat after me. And so that was not the way.
Speaker 1: It was just for the way of living. It was
Speaker 1: just part of the way in which they existed. And
Speaker 1: it's those things which I studied, and in so studying
Speaker 1: these things, the cosmology, the psychology of these of our
Speaker 1: ancient ancestors, studying them deeply enough is tantamount to a
Speaker 1: profound conversion, if you will, because you embody you you
Speaker 1: absorb these basic concepts. You're not thinking about something, you're
Speaker 1: thinking from within something. And so that is how academia
Speaker 1: had quote the occult and quote it gets fused in
Speaker 1: my experience as a young person when I was beginning,
Speaker 1: when I was around twenty years old, you know, but
Speaker 1: I was so lucky. It's luck more than anything else
Speaker 1: to have the interest that I had, which was in
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two, three, et cetera. Was very common, very common,
Speaker 1: much more common than now as far as just people
Speaker 1: who really weren't that enthusiastic about it was just in
Speaker 1: the air. It was everywhere, this kind of interest in
Speaker 1: what we call the occult, mysticism, magic, etc. It was
Speaker 1: harder to find because you didn't just click something on
Speaker 1: the Internet and find out things. You had to know somebody,
Speaker 1: You had to spend a lot of time, effort, and
Speaker 1: so forth. But it was that kind of thing was
Speaker 1: in the air a lot of people. But I had
Speaker 1: to have interest X and then to find myself in
Speaker 1: the place and in the environment of exactly the persons
Speaker 1: and place where this kind of thing could be accessed.
Speaker 1: In that academic world of the University of Texas at
Speaker 1: Austin in the early seventies, where we had a Germanic
Speaker 1: languages department, and your Polo May and others who were
Speaker 1: dedicated to this and this mentor of mine at your poleman.
Speaker 1: What many people will teach even today in the academic
Speaker 1: world about vikings. They're more popular than ever, obviously, Uh,
Speaker 1: But the people usually treat it as a hoot. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like, good, you believe these wild and crazy guys
Speaker 1: that do all these things, and aren't they wild? Like
Speaker 1: bikers are something, and they're your professors. And now we
Speaker 1: had those two Uh treated this whole world as a
Speaker 1: kind of a bizarre, unbelievable, wacky, out of control, a
Speaker 1: bunch of heathens. You know, that's funny, as But no,
Speaker 1: that was not the way I was taught. It was
Speaker 1: hot that these things that we are studying are serious, important,
Speaker 1: and meaningful. This is the root of who we are
Speaker 1: and who will always be if we are true to ourselves.
Speaker 1: And so that kind of attitude of serious, important, meaningful
Speaker 1: study is something that even if you can find people
Speaker 1: teaching about this sort of thing in the academic world,
Speaker 1: very few, if any, have a positive attitude towards the
Speaker 1: subject matter. And many times it's treated is absolutely well,
Speaker 1: it's being forbidden. You know. It's been the University of
Speaker 1: Texas today, it was the place where Paul May taught,
Speaker 1: where Lee Hollander, one of the most famous translators of
Speaker 1: the Edda from the nineteen twenties, was a professor there.
Speaker 1: And now you can't even see. They don't even teach
Speaker 1: Old Norse anymore. They don't teach you at all because
Speaker 1: it's well, you know, forbidden, it's old, dead, white European men,
Speaker 1: and that's what I say of it, and so therefore
Speaker 1: we're not teaching it anymore. Well, they won't come out.
Speaker 1: I've asked, you know, why did it disappear? And that
Speaker 1: question when I ask it of someone is the last
Speaker 1: time I ever speak of that person. They'll never answer
Speaker 1: me or talk to me again. But were asking that question,
Speaker 1: that's what happens.
Speaker 5: So, Stephen, if you forgive me a question, because I'm
Speaker 5: relatively new to this, but I would like to ask you, so,
Speaker 5: in your perspective, all of this myths and all of
Speaker 5: this that sums up and goes into and has the
Speaker 5: rooms in it, you don't think that its origins came
Speaker 5: from an animistic view where the rooms itself are in
Speaker 5: element of the power of nature and some object for instance.
Speaker 1: No, no, it's it is the symbolic power these rooms
Speaker 1: were invented by a single man. Okay, there was one
Speaker 1: person who did it. We don't know who it was,
Speaker 1: but it was probably around somewhere between two hundred b c.
Speaker 1: And around the turn of the epoch in that area.
Speaker 1: He was a poet, a storyteller, a mythographer, and so forth.
Speaker 1: And that's why this odentic god form is the god
Speaker 1: form of the of the run using culture, if you will.
Speaker 1: These things are symbolic of things which are eternal and
Speaker 1: beyond the experience of the mundane. If you see the
Speaker 1: old Norse cosmology where we see it most exemplified, you
Speaker 1: see these different worlds. People say, oh, Thorson or whoever
Speaker 1: is imitating the Cabbala or something, and said, well, no,
Speaker 1: you know the great Cabalist. And I studied that sort
Speaker 1: of thing when I was younger, and at the university,
Speaker 1: I took a course as a great course, you know,
Speaker 1: in Jewish mysticism. I studied it quite a bit, and
Speaker 1: so forth and so on. And it turns out that
Speaker 1: when you get into the scholarly part of it, the
Speaker 1: whole tree of life thing, for example, was not really
Speaker 1: codified until the twelve hundred's in Spain, it's not something
Speaker 1: super ancient, but it is. It's sort of in the tradition,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't get that sort of codification till then.
Speaker 1: And that's you read the and you see they are
Speaker 1: describing worlds, and this one is to the east, this
Speaker 1: one is to the west, this one's above, this one's below,
Speaker 1: and they in words, they paint this picture of these
Speaker 1: nine worlds, and so forth, these things exist. The natural
Speaker 1: world exists in mid guard, and beyond that, on the
Speaker 1: outside of that is a world of other dimensions. And oh,
Speaker 1: you've mentioned animism. Well, we have two forms of approach,
Speaker 1: and animism should rarely, if ever be mentioned apart from
Speaker 1: another concept, which is its twin which people rarely talk about,
Speaker 1: and I hear in these discussions, and that is dynamism.
Speaker 1: Dynamism and animism. These are the two partners in the
Speaker 1: approach to magic or magical thinking in archaic ancient society.
Speaker 1: Dynamism is kind of like a Animism involves a creature
Speaker 1: or something that has a a kind of identity. That's
Speaker 1: why they are characterize it under the symbols of animals, dwarves, elves,
Speaker 1: et cetera. They have an onymous, a kind of a
Speaker 1: spirit or soul. And then dynamism. Something which is a
Speaker 1: dynamistic power is something which is like electricity, it's analogous
Speaker 1: to electricity or gravity, or it is an impersonal force.
Speaker 1: May the force be with you. It can't be bargained with,
Speaker 1: It can't be communicated with. It can only be used
Speaker 1: were using a certain quote technology. And these are not separate.
Speaker 5: They are part of animism. What you're describing is a
Speaker 5: part of the animism. So if you go to the
Speaker 5: descriptions of the Norse mythology, all of it is animism.
Speaker 5: Is the land is the power of the land, is
Speaker 5: the power of the creatures that emerge from the land.
Speaker 5: Emir itself became the land.
Speaker 1: But there's a separate concept of the power. For example,
Speaker 1: the humming you that a person has their luck is
Speaker 1: something which can be you know, pray to it or
Speaker 1: bargain with the humming you. You build it through action,
Speaker 1: or someone gives you this as a gift, can be
Speaker 1: laid on someone. And it can be that thing which
Speaker 1: is inherited, as is the thing which is inherited from
Speaker 1: one generation to the next. But I think people have
Speaker 1: broadened the concept of pandomism beyond the point where it is, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, a precise definition. So yeah, we just you know,
Speaker 1: maud By dynamistic and animistic concepts. And then you say, well,
Speaker 1: it's all quote, it's all dynamism. It's all a force
Speaker 1: or power. And sometimes we conceive of it as a
Speaker 1: as a as a as a pixie, or a dwarf
Speaker 1: for an elf, but it's really just a power. Somebody
Speaker 1: might argue.
Speaker 5: That I see it as as a planet, as a cosmos,
Speaker 5: as an animous equilibrium where everything is connected. I don't
Speaker 5: see a dwarf for a creature. I see everything, the
Speaker 5: Earth itself, e dressled, each one of the nine worlds.
Speaker 5: They are all part of this animism that I really
Speaker 5: forms of power that can be then used by conjunctions
Speaker 5: of materials like, for instance, the rooms. That's my point.
Speaker 5: I'm I'm trying to disagree with you, but that's how
Speaker 5: I see it.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry talking your converted animism into dynamism. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: that's fine, but that's what it is. It's closer to dynamism.
Speaker 1: The actual uh dino almost is great words for power
Speaker 1: is power and uh that.
Speaker 5: Power must you radiate from somewhere now.
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, Yeah, that's I had no farther point from
Speaker 1: which it or comes are the the the ice?
Speaker 6: So I have I have a sort of question since
Speaker 6: you brought up the homingia, and maybe this is it's
Speaker 6: a parallel question that might give us a different angle
Speaker 6: to approach this. Forgive me if it's if it's too technical,
Speaker 6: we can take a step back if you don't think
Speaker 6: it's productive. Since you mentioned you have you know, we
Speaker 6: haven't gone through a full itinerary. We don't need to
Speaker 6: of the Germanic soul complex or the varieties of Germanic
Speaker 6: soul complexes. And I'm wondering which parts of those soul
Speaker 6: complexes are sort of stabilized and perpetuated in the subjective
Speaker 6: universe buy an initiate. Is it a single part? Is
Speaker 6: it the sort of what are considered the transcendent aspects
Speaker 6: of it, the fieldga et cetera. Where is this the
Speaker 6: wrong way to approach?
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that is the way.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 1: You have to strengthen these parts of yourself, just like
Speaker 1: they are just like your arms, your legs, et cetera.
Speaker 1: If you're an athlete or warrior. Uh, the thephilia them them,
Speaker 1: you know, all of these things have to be our
Speaker 1: parts of ourselves. And of course, Bob, the reality of
Speaker 1: magic is something that people rarely approach or talk about. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know when it's really the essential part, and that
Speaker 1: is that when you say I'm gonna do spells and
Speaker 1: do this, that and the other, you know, well, that's fine,
Speaker 1: keep doing it, son, you know, because that that'll that
Speaker 1: will render a person pretty not dangerous. But until until
Speaker 1: you say, this is how magic is done. You have
Speaker 1: to get the God, the spirit, the demon, whatever you
Speaker 1: call it. You've got to come into possession of that.
Speaker 1: It could be it could emerge from within yourself, like
Speaker 1: the philia, and you make a bargain a union between
Speaker 1: you and this thing, which is irrelevant as to whether
Speaker 1: it's part of you or from somewhere else. It could
Speaker 1: be either or both. Uh. And that's in the Icelandic tradition.
Speaker 1: You see this and these are the a uh or
Speaker 1: it could be the philia or a lot of other names.
Speaker 1: But it is something that you get as your autodors
Speaker 1: is what it's called, of course in the Greek tradition, uh,
Speaker 1: helping spirit if you will, and getting that and gaining
Speaker 1: a relationship in a union with this thing. This is
Speaker 1: what Croley called knowledge and contwork other's before him, but
Speaker 1: what he focused on knowledge and conversation of the Holy
Speaker 1: Guardian Angel. And this is something, of course, as what
Speaker 1: I'm writing a little study about Croley and how he
Speaker 1: and the famous words of Maxwell Smart from the nineteen sixties.
Speaker 1: If everybody's old enough to remember, get smart one of
Speaker 1: his little catchphrases is missed it by that much. And Crowley,
Speaker 1: of course used his predecessors had used this so called
Speaker 1: bornless ritual which had come from the Greek magical papyary,
Speaker 1: and it is not intended for the purpose that they
Speaker 1: were trying to use it for. However, there's a half
Speaker 1: a dozen other rituals in that body of which is precisely,
Speaker 1: pragmatically and fundamentally intended for that sort of working to
Speaker 1: gain this entity as you as in making it part
Speaker 1: of yourself. And I just recently finished it's going to
Speaker 1: be published by Arcana Europa, a translation, a new translation
Speaker 1: of the translation that exists as an abomination of linguistic
Speaker 1: abomination of the German magician sexologist and all the way
Speaker 1: around Madman er Scherkly and he wrote a book called Magee,
Speaker 1: and this is one of the most honest, straightforward, pragmatic
Speaker 1: books on the subject of magic. And he just fills
Speaker 1: it out there right from the beginning. Uh, just if
Speaker 1: you can, you know, work through his prosh is, which
Speaker 1: is you've got to get this connection with and he
Speaker 1: just says, with the demon, with the god whatever, you know,
Speaker 1: this thing it can be different ones, you know, different things.
Speaker 1: It's not all the same. It's not just one. It's
Speaker 1: it's your thing. It's something in sort of fate has
Speaker 1: intended for you or not. Most people won't until you
Speaker 1: get that thing. Uh, when you get it, all magic works. Hey,
Speaker 1: you thing works. I do a half ass ritual I do.
Speaker 1: I just think of something that works, and another person
Speaker 1: will get his sword and make it out and get
Speaker 1: all these materials. Of course, most of all that stuff
Speaker 1: is put into the grimoires as an something which ensures
Speaker 1: that no one will ever have magic that works. And
Speaker 1: you'll always blame yourself because it says, well, if I
Speaker 1: only my sword wasn't long enough, or my.
Speaker 6: Uh was it made out of the right material?
Speaker 1: I didn't make it on a Wednesday, My inscription is
Speaker 1: wrong on it say or so forth. It's always something
Speaker 1: like that, you know, the timing, whether all that, that's
Speaker 1: all put there just to be sure you don't know secret,
Speaker 1: which the secret is you get your your helper, and
Speaker 1: than anything and everything works or can work. As I
Speaker 1: point out repeatedly everywhere I talk about the subject a
Speaker 1: magic is an art. It is not a science. So
Speaker 1: that motto, you know, the the uh the name of
Speaker 1: religion and methods of science is that it is relatious.
Speaker 1: Because magic is an art. Science is something that no
Speaker 1: matter who you are, a subject x y Z, scientist
Speaker 1: x y or z, it doesn't matter where in the
Speaker 1: world you are, who you are, if you do this experiment,
Speaker 1: it will work. That's science. So it makes it science.
Speaker 1: But the fact that there's a subjective component, that is
Speaker 1: the subject linguistically speaking, subject, the doer, the doer of
Speaker 1: this experiment, of this work, is relevant. In fact, it
Speaker 1: is paramount as to the working or not working of
Speaker 1: the and of the condition, and the character of that
Speaker 1: subject is essential to the working or not working of
Speaker 1: the experiment. Magic working, and so it is an art.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it is like the that was the Chief, I
Speaker 1: can't remember the chief's name the movie Little Big Man.
Speaker 1: You know, he wanted to die. He laid there and
Speaker 1: it didn't work. And he says, well, sometimes the magic
Speaker 1: works and sometimes it doesn't, you know. But and a
Speaker 1: cherycle answer. Cheritle wrote this book in nineteen thirty two
Speaker 1: something like that, and it's famous, and the previous translation
Speaker 1: was really interested in it only because it was in
Speaker 1: the bunker with Hitler and he'd been given this book
Speaker 1: by the publisher when it was published, and he had
Speaker 1: it with him in the bunker, and it was like, no,
Speaker 1: he wrote, underlined or emphasized passages and so forth and
Speaker 1: so on, and did implement, you know, many of the
Speaker 1: ideas of this development of the magical persona, which will
Speaker 1: become a godline creature and becomes then your expression of
Speaker 1: your own person persona and personality and all these kinds
Speaker 1: of aspects. But there are many other places in there
Speaker 1: that where it's like, hey, Adolf, didn't you read this
Speaker 1: part here? You know you're gonna you know, if you
Speaker 1: do it this way, you probably destroy yourself, and so forth.
Speaker 1: He apparently ignored that part. But he this charepol is
Speaker 1: very he's a interesting character. He met Crowley one time,
Speaker 1: this German person, a friend of theirs common friend, got
Speaker 1: him together to play chess. Crowley mentions him and he says,
Speaker 1: I didn't like that. He says, apparently he's a pretty
Speaker 1: chess master and so forth, or just the way he
Speaker 1: talks us. Obviously who won that? But you know, uh say,
Speaker 1: but he's a very interesting person, this Aaron schriful guy.
Speaker 1: So that's why I spent this book as a comprehensive
Speaker 1: kind of introduction to his world, because I was really
Speaker 1: kind of annoyed by the fact that theives other people
Speaker 1: are just seeing his work, this particular work in the
Speaker 1: context of of Hitler, Nazism and the Nazis stripped Chareful
Speaker 1: of his PhD. And he had to work in obscurity
Speaker 1: throughout the time because he was a total decadent in
Speaker 1: the extreme. He was more known as a sex expert
Speaker 1: on sexuality and sex concerns that he was of magic,
Speaker 1: you know, per se. But he did write this one
Speaker 1: extremely insightful book and did practice this idea. But this
Speaker 1: idea of getting this entity is I got this other
Speaker 1: book coming out called The Golder of Kla, The Golder
Speaker 1: of Klok, which means the Magical Fellowship in Icelandic and
Speaker 1: it's about Icelandic magic and the pragmatic practice of Icelandic magic,
Speaker 1: illustrated in part through the folk tales about magic, which
Speaker 1: are extraordinary documents because they these magicians in the Icelandic tradition,
Speaker 1: they have the stories about them. But you know, magic
Speaker 1: happens in these stories, but they're not. When people think
Speaker 1: folk tales, they think of something like grims so called
Speaker 1: fairy tales, and you know, there's nothing of interest there
Speaker 1: for a magician for the most parts, because things just
Speaker 1: happen right like it's in a cartoon or something like
Speaker 1: the fairy godmother shows up and waves one something happens
Speaker 1: and so. But these stories of Icelandic magicians they give
Speaker 1: technical details and technical terminology about how the magic works,
Speaker 1: and it doesn't it's not about turning somebody into a
Speaker 1: pumpkin or something. They're very realistic, very realistic descriptions of
Speaker 1: how of magical workings and their results and how they result,
Speaker 1: how they make results, and how people experience this, both
Speaker 1: from within the subject of the doing it as well
Speaker 1: as the people observing it. It's very real, very realistic.
Speaker 1: So they do give insight into the workings of this
Speaker 1: kind of magic, which i uh translate many years ago
Speaker 1: the the Golderbok, which is this sort of grimoire of
Speaker 1: Icelandic magic. So uh, but there you see that they
Speaker 1: are people are getting these entities. They're called different things. Uh.
Speaker 1: The pooky, for example, is one you over probably reckon
Speaker 1: that pookyuh is uh you know. Uh. The Irish borrowed
Speaker 1: this word from the from the vikings uh, and we
Speaker 1: get it as pooka, right, but it's a Norse word
Speaker 1: pooky uh. And it's a sort of an imp or a.
Speaker 1: It's an entity, you know. And if you uh get
Speaker 1: it and and may get your friend and become one
Speaker 1: with it sort of, then you know, you can work
Speaker 1: through that power. And that's that's what you see in
Speaker 1: the Greek magical papyety. Also that's exactly what the early
Speaker 1: and this papyrus or that there'll be this working which
Speaker 1: is how to get this spirit, how to get this parados.
Speaker 1: And there's a great book called Jesus the Magician written
Speaker 1: by Morton Smith who was a a I never looked
Speaker 1: at that book when I was younger because of this
Speaker 1: oh keep you know, what is that crazy? But it's
Speaker 1: really just a total study of Jesus, the stories about him. Uh,
Speaker 1: And said, well, what does Jesus really do? I mean,
Speaker 1: every once in a while they'll preach a sermon to
Speaker 1: some roobs on a mountaintop. But otherwise he's performing magic.
Speaker 1: He's a professional magician. He's a wandering healer, professional magician
Speaker 1: that's always making his quote daily bread. Uh. And so
Speaker 1: this person studies. So where do we have other things
Speaker 1: like this? Oh? Yes, well the Middle East was full
Speaker 1: of these people at the time, and the Greek magical
Speaker 1: propriety are a record of this sort of thing and
Speaker 1: grimoire style. And then he said, look at this, the
Speaker 1: the baptism of Jesus. Okay, he's put in the water,
Speaker 1: he's up, A dove comes down, boom, comes to him
Speaker 1: and says, this is my son, and who I'm well?
Speaker 1: Please there that exists in the Greek magical propriety. There's
Speaker 1: a whole ritual if we bind up a person, wrap
Speaker 1: them in a big cloth on a rooftop, and so forth,
Speaker 1: and and do all these things, and then a hawk
Speaker 1: or a bird will come down and hit the person
Speaker 1: and say this is my son. And that's when that
Speaker 1: entity enters him. When that entity enters the magician, and
Speaker 1: now he can do all kinds of things. But cherycle
Speaker 1: does point out, I don't believe that once you get
Speaker 1: this thing, that you can do anything, because any all
Speaker 1: the all these things, if they're real, which they are,
Speaker 1: have their own talents, abilities, natures. They're different one from
Speaker 1: the other. So you know, you may get certain kinds
Speaker 1: of abilities, but certain other ones not. You know, it's
Speaker 1: not like, well, I can do anything. It's just unrealistic.
Speaker 1: But what is realistic is incredibly and unbelievably fantastic.
Speaker 6: At least I have.
Speaker 5: Go ahead, go ahead, please please do I have.
Speaker 4: A quick question about rooms and forgive the of it.
Speaker 4: You speak kind of a concept that of ruine consciousness,
Speaker 4: like it has a consciousness to it. Would you, for
Speaker 4: me and the audience, would you say that a room
Speaker 4: is a symbol, a portal, a being. And if you
Speaker 4: consider the room as a conscious entity, do they have
Speaker 4: their own separate entities? Does each room have it separate consciousness?
Speaker 1: The room is a mystery. A mystery is a is
Speaker 1: a revelation and a continuing concealment of itself. And the
Speaker 1: reason it continuously conceals itself is it wants you to
Speaker 1: seek it, and in seeking it you create more of it.
Speaker 1: You see if we say like, oh, here's a here's
Speaker 1: the revelation, like this means that that's what it means. Okay, Sam,
Speaker 1: you know that's it. You've been it's been revealed. You
Speaker 1: can go on about your business. See now you know.
Speaker 1: Now you know because I told you. That's not what
Speaker 1: the mystery does. Mystery says, here's an opening, like a
Speaker 1: portal like you said, and this is a pathway to
Speaker 1: go Osan says when he is initiated, you know, Uh
Speaker 1: with the ordeal on Equssia. Uh, there's a say one
Speaker 1: word led to another word, one deed led to another
Speaker 1: d this was leading this going, This dynamic uh, progressive
Speaker 1: continuous pathway is the thing that the runs open and encourage.
Speaker 1: And that's why they remain a mystery. That it's a
Speaker 1: roun and roon. Uh. The the mystery is uh. The
Speaker 1: and that that is runa if you will, is ovin'sphilia.
Speaker 1: But he is near death. This in this interressive initiation,
Speaker 1: which is done as a form of execution. That's how
Speaker 1: they sacrifice people men. That's how the Germanic people sacrificed
Speaker 1: humans was by hanging. And that's what our hangings said.
Speaker 1: What why do we think of doing capital punishment by
Speaker 1: hanging people, isn't that kind of weird? Well, that's the
Speaker 1: way it was done, and that's the way the ancient
Speaker 1: Germanic people's sacrificed humans who were sacrificed well, generally criminals
Speaker 1: or prisoners of war now or people who had violated
Speaker 1: the divine order in some way. And the priests that
Speaker 1: the legions of Varus were all executed or sacrificed in
Speaker 1: that way. After the Battle of the Tortureburger Forest, they
Speaker 1: let the women and children in the company of the
Speaker 1: Romans go because they weren't combatants. Now, the Romans didn't
Speaker 1: treat the Germans so well. They killed men, women, children
Speaker 1: and everybody as an act of vengeance on them. But
Speaker 1: so he is being executed, that's what's being described as
Speaker 1: a human sacrifice. He's hanging on a tree, the hanging tree.
Speaker 1: He thrust it. And by the way, that's how Stonehenge
Speaker 1: gets its name a hinge. What does the hinge do?
Speaker 1: It hangs a door. It's a hanging thing. And that's
Speaker 1: what the Anglo Saxons were executing their prisoners of war
Speaker 1: on this thing, which looked like a gallows to them,
Speaker 1: and that's how it go its name. But anyway, he
Speaker 1: gets near death, he's getting near death, and instead of dying,
Speaker 1: he meets his failures and then becomes totally and absolutely
Speaker 1: empowered through this connection, through this union, if you will,
Speaker 1: with this contrasexual entity, this philia oruna, the mystery, the mystery,
Speaker 1: and she is always well. Mathematicians will call it asymptote,
Speaker 1: an asymptomic thing which you can see, you can get towards,
Speaker 1: you can get close to, but you can never possess totally.
Speaker 1: You can get closer to it, you can get more
Speaker 1: together with it, but never absolutely, because she keeps pulling
Speaker 1: you on. Final part of Gerta's foulst famously says, right
Speaker 1: when Faust gert fules, Faust is not damned, but is
Speaker 1: saved in the end, but saved by whom, by God, no,
Speaker 1: by the spirit of the woman he had betrayed in life,
Speaker 1: Margaret or Mark Great Gregson. And uh, he says, she
Speaker 1: lifts him up, saves him, if you will, and you
Speaker 1: saved by that woman who had been in life, Gretchen,
Speaker 1: who is the eternal feminine which pulls us ever onwards.
Speaker 1: Avish right, the eternal feminine and that's you know, Gerta
Speaker 1: was not studying Germanic mythology, but he might as well.
Speaker 1: He had an into intuitive mind that could grasp this concept.
Speaker 1: But so that that's what all of that sort of thing,
Speaker 1: that's what each one of these rooms is. Now they
Speaker 1: see that the order. People break their heads over the
Speaker 1: order of the rooms. It's not really that hard once
Speaker 1: you every one of the rooms are our diaddic that is,
Speaker 1: Faith who Urus? They are similar things. Faith who is
Speaker 1: a livestock, who can be a cattle or sheep or whatever.
Speaker 1: Fay who and u Urus is a wild bison of
Speaker 1: wild buffalo type creature. There's wild they're both bovine, right,
Speaker 1: Fay who Urus? But the one is why they're dis
Speaker 1: friendshimed by one principle. What is it? Tameness are domesticity
Speaker 1: and wildness. So they're the same and they're different in
Speaker 1: that way. Then you have order theory. Saws ans a
Speaker 1: giant and the God. They're similar. They are the spiritual
Speaker 1: entities of archetypal powers, whatever you want to call them.
Speaker 1: But one is destructive and is bad, and one is
Speaker 1: divine good and so forth. So so it goes like
Speaker 1: that throughout the twenty four, So that it's bad. That's
Speaker 1: the that's the poem, if you will. It's like it's
Speaker 1: it's a classification system. And that's where you see that.
Speaker 1: People say, well, Germanic peoples must have invented these rooms.
Speaker 1: Well they did, absolutely did, but they wasn't like made
Speaker 1: up out of nothing. It was based on the Roman alphabet.
Speaker 1: I mean, not the order of it, but just the
Speaker 1: idea of it. You know, that's all a clever guy
Speaker 1: has to hear. It's like, look, we just yeah, make
Speaker 1: a sound, you make it, you make a sign, and
Speaker 1: you make all the sounds you have. You just got
Speaker 1: to think about it and then you put them all together.
Speaker 1: That's why I think, weren't those ancient Egyptians or those
Speaker 1: ancient Babylonians smart enough to do that? Oh? Yeah they were,
Speaker 1: but they didn't want to do that because you know,
Speaker 1: everybody knows the computer nerd has proprietory knowledge, right, keep
Speaker 1: things as complex as possible. They can never get rid
Speaker 1: of me. They need be to to to make their
Speaker 1: records and so forth. So we're making a writing system
Speaker 1: that's is baffling in its complexity. Can they afform and hieroglyphics?
Speaker 1: And so forth. When the Greeks just figured out, make
Speaker 1: a sound, make a sign, that's it. Every sound you
Speaker 1: may put a sign, and that's it. That's all we
Speaker 1: gotta do, and that's writing. And they did it, greats
Speaker 1: did it. And then the Germanic peoples did a similar thing.
Speaker 1: But notice it's not it's not the same. They could
Speaker 1: have just used the Roman alphabet. We use it to
Speaker 1: write our language. Why didn't they use it to write theirs? Well,
Speaker 1: eventually they would when Christianity came, but before that they
Speaker 1: had their own thing that somebody put together into a
Speaker 1: system which had a lore attached to it, which had
Speaker 1: a different order, which had a had internal poetry to it.
Speaker 1: And that's why these people were the poets, storytellers and
Speaker 1: such of their world, and continue to be so till
Speaker 1: the very as long as there was a living Runic traditions.
Speaker 1: That's why my book about the revival over the Runic
Speaker 1: tradition is really not about the older times when it
Speaker 1: was intact and it was an initiatory body of material.
Speaker 1: You see, because when you think about rooms were used
Speaker 1: for a thousand years or more among the Germanic peoples,
Speaker 1: and no more than one or less than one percent
Speaker 1: of people were ever literate in ruins. Just the presence
Speaker 1: of a Runic inscription callsed awe in terror. You know,
Speaker 1: just the looking at it was awesome and unbelievable. You know,
Speaker 1: we were really taboo. You stay away from it. It's
Speaker 1: since only the few, very very few could write. It
Speaker 1: was not intended for all those centuries. It was not.
Speaker 1: It was not used for a pragmatic practical purpose, you know, ever,
Speaker 1: not until the Middle Ages a little bit later, when
Speaker 1: the Latin alphabet was also in use. Time. But so
Speaker 1: I just look at the that particular book, A Revival
Speaker 1: of the Room is about well what happened after it
Speaker 1: sort of died out, which it never totally did. There
Speaker 1: are these areas in Sweden, uh, where the ruins continued
Speaker 1: to be in use. And that's where this famous in Sweden,
Speaker 1: famous mystic h Thomas Carlson, who may know I heard of,
Speaker 1: wrote his dissertation on this, which he wasn't alone, and
Speaker 1: others have written him on Johann Bouge or Johannes Bureus
Speaker 1: who went out into the sticks and found people who
Speaker 1: knew how to read and write rooms. And so I
Speaker 1: started to interpret these thousands of runic inscriptions which are
Speaker 1: to be found on this in the Swedish countryside. There
Speaker 1: are thousands of them, five thousands of some odd runic
Speaker 1: inscriptions on stones that were kind of baffling to people.
Speaker 1: I thought they would make up, you know, silly ideas
Speaker 1: or what you know to us today, or so that
Speaker 1: they must have been carved by Adam and Eve. You know,
Speaker 1: they're anti Beluvian, says all. There's some kind of thing
Speaker 1: from the because they interpreted everything in terms of biblical lore.
Speaker 1: But actually, you know, their own recent not to the
Speaker 1: recent ancestors who carve these things. And he had to
Speaker 1: find the farmers who still knew the basics of it
Speaker 1: and this and the linguists started to figure it out
Speaker 1: to say, this is what's going on, this is what
Speaker 1: this is. And but these rooms, uh are are just
Speaker 1: and that's where you see, the most important thing we
Speaker 1: can know about rooms directly from the tradition are the
Speaker 1: room poems, because these are written by people who know
Speaker 1: this war, and so they extensively they extrapolate on the
Speaker 1: name or the and say that's what this means is
Speaker 1: the symbolism is extrapolated upon in the metaphors or kimmings,
Speaker 1: you know, so that they give us insight, direct insight
Speaker 1: into what these things mean. And that's one of the
Speaker 1: sort of not so positive aspects. Are we take it
Speaker 1: a lot further it should and have h of talking
Speaker 1: about rooms, because the early room sort of writers, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: treated the rooms, that is in the eighties and the
Speaker 1: people like Ralph Blum or whatever, you know, treated the
Speaker 1: rooms like well, they're like it's like that's it, that's
Speaker 1: the symbol, and that's all that we really know about it.
Speaker 1: And I can now make up all sorts of crap
Speaker 1: about it in which they did, and that's the way
Speaker 1: they were treated. Like this one thing maybe a name,
Speaker 1: it means something, but really there's poetic tradition that is
Speaker 1: attached to the Anglo Saxon room poem. There's an Icelandic
Speaker 1: room poem, the old Norwegian room poem, et cetera, which
Speaker 1: tell us directly what people who knew said about it.
Speaker 1: And that was ignored and completely overlooked by everybody early on,
Speaker 1: you know, because they didn't know nothing. They didn't know
Speaker 1: somebody like Ralph wand didn't didn't do it, didn't even
Speaker 1: read the Encyclopedia Britannica article on rooms or writing the book,
Speaker 1: you know, so that's the way, that's the way it
Speaker 1: was in the world and the culture. Ko boops.
Speaker 3: One thing I want to ask you a little bit
Speaker 3: of you know more in the book you kind of
Speaker 3: go through like different ages and times that you look
Speaker 3: at I guess ruins, right, And did you want to
Speaker 3: like maybe touch on a little bit of the I mean,
Speaker 3: obviously you want to leave some for people to you
Speaker 3: know with the book, but should be touching a little
Speaker 3: bit of that if any one of those even Nazis
Speaker 3: or whatever you want to touch on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, like I said, I mentioned this Johannes
Speaker 1: bureos Er uh. You know, he was in the Sailor
Speaker 1: around sixteen hundred and we did the research and was
Speaker 1: one of the founders of scientific rhueology. But he was
Speaker 1: also a Rosa Crucian and a mystic and so forth
Speaker 1: at the time also, and so he was the first
Speaker 1: He's sort of the archetype of what I see myself
Speaker 1: as as a combining the science of the day with
Speaker 1: the with the eternal quest for the mystery. And so
Speaker 1: that didn't get followed up on too too much historically,
Speaker 1: but he did set the sort of cone for everything.
Speaker 1: But it wasn't until the late eighteen hundreds that the
Speaker 1: rooms were really well understood by scientists, by by linguists,
Speaker 1: by philologists, the Grims founding so many things. The fathers
Speaker 1: who comparative religion, of comparative linguistics and folklore also wrote
Speaker 1: the first sort of scientific Billhelm Grimm wrote one of
Speaker 1: the first scientific books on ruins, also in the early
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. But that's a constant saga that I carry
Speaker 1: in this book is the interplay, a non interplay between
Speaker 1: what we really know about rooms in the sense of
Speaker 1: the mundane aspects of it, of this tradition as a
Speaker 1: linguistic phenomenon, and what mystic mathematicians, etc. Make of it,
Speaker 1: and hundreds of years of frankly, a lot of confusion, right,
Speaker 1: and that confusion really to my way thinking. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to sound braggadocious here, because
Speaker 1: it could have been done by a lot of people.
Speaker 1: But the point is it was just never done until
Speaker 1: I did it, you know, which is to remarry these
Speaker 1: two things together, which had been for his day and
Speaker 1: time put together by Johann Body around sixteen hundred, but
Speaker 1: never since then were the two impulses put together. And
Speaker 1: you're called the podcast here is called a cult rejects.
Speaker 1: Of course that you must know that in a way,
Speaker 1: that's a redundancy, right, because a cult knowledge is rejected
Speaker 1: knowledge by definition. Okay, you know that. But on the
Speaker 1: other hand, well within the orthodoxies of the occult or whatever,
Speaker 1: you could have people who are not rejected, who are
Speaker 1: orthodox and or calling the line, you know, with what
Speaker 1: the group says you ought to think, believe, and do.
Speaker 1: That's one of the things you were at the present
Speaker 1: moment or speaking of, one of the greatest rejects that
Speaker 1: you'll ever speak to. Because I'm rejected by everyone. I mean,
Speaker 1: there are people who appreciate it. I mean, and I
Speaker 1: appreciate that that people do. That's my I'm happy to
Speaker 1: have that understanding. It's not something I'm running from. But
Speaker 1: the academic world rejects me because I take this kind
Speaker 1: of study and I follow my mentor in saying and thinking,
Speaker 1: we are doing things here which are serious, important and meaningful.
Speaker 1: And most academics today when you got into whether you're
Speaker 1: talking about a viking or a room, it's saying, oh,
Speaker 1: it's a bunch of silly nonsense, but it's a great
Speaker 1: way to make a living, you know. And as long
Speaker 1: as I keep towing the line here at the academic
Speaker 1: department and say the right things and have the right
Speaker 1: opinions and feelings and you know, thoughts, feelings and so forth,
Speaker 1: you know, I can keep this job. And they do.
Speaker 1: And so that's I'm rejected because I think it means
Speaker 1: something and it's important and meaningful in the academic world.
Speaker 1: In the occult world, I generally rejected because I have
Speaker 1: this notion of authenticity and the idea that it's something
Speaker 1: that belongs to us, that it's this idea that's politically
Speaker 1: incorrect to say that the body and the soul and
Speaker 1: the spirit are unified. They said, well, that's fine as
Speaker 1: long as you're talking about you here right now, sitting
Speaker 1: in the yoga studio. But at the point where you
Speaker 1: say my father, my grandfather and all of my ancestors
Speaker 1: are all connected and holistically connected to me, similarly, that
Speaker 1: sounds racist to me. And that's the term that way.
Speaker 1: Once time, early on, my one of my lieutenants, if
Speaker 1: you will, uh run gild member uh well, went over
Speaker 1: and to a place where Ralph Blum was giving a talk,
Speaker 1: you know, selling his latest book. And I said, I
Speaker 1: told this guy footh Arc had come out by them
Speaker 1: by a year or so. And I told this guy
Speaker 1: to go over to this place as a venue where
Speaker 1: this guy was speaking, just across the street from the university.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, the question and answered for it
Speaker 1: comes up, ask him if he's ever heard of Edward Thorson.
Speaker 1: And so this guy does that question. I'm not there,
Speaker 1: I'm going to show up later.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: And he's asks him the question, and Ralph Blum says, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've heard he's a fascist. Uh. And this is like,
Speaker 1: you know, a year two after Food Art had come out.
Speaker 1: But I was already known, you know, even before the
Speaker 1: book was published. In the circles of you know, the
Speaker 1: occult world. Let's just call them whatever with the Wickens.
Speaker 1: This isn't the that's and the other things and what
Speaker 1: it was that So this animosity towards me and my
Speaker 1: approach was there from the beginning. And the reason for
Speaker 1: this rejection and so forth is the idea of this authenticity.
Speaker 1: One thing people say, well, generally in the occult world,
Speaker 1: you find that there are people who have who like
Speaker 1: things to be extremely vague, and while insisting they are
Speaker 1: a tradition that's been handed down from the Stone Age,
Speaker 1: and we have the real tradition, and well it looks
Speaker 1: a whole lot like Ala Crowley to me. Well, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: it's from the Stone Age, you know, that kind of
Speaker 1: a thing. And so uh as Aza Cruz, the kind
Speaker 1: of was mentioned by one of the critics early on
Speaker 1: uh is saying it's that religion with homework, you know,
Speaker 1: because we say, look, we can find out important things,
Speaker 1: really meaningful, profound things by studying old languages and old
Speaker 1: poetic texts and so forth. There right here, they've just
Speaker 1: been ignored and not used in favor of something that
Speaker 1: nobody's ever heard of before. Uhh, I had a book.
Speaker 1: I have a book, a famous, a famous book, but
Speaker 1: a book called Hermetic Magic cam I have seen and
Speaker 1: uh I submitted that book to Llewellyn because I rarely
Speaker 1: wrote it for them. Karl Weshke and I were really
Speaker 1: good buddies. Nobody in his company like me at all,
Speaker 1: but he did so. But then he was kind of
Speaker 1: a you know, it's had to make the company men happy,
Speaker 1: and so he was sent it around to people in
Speaker 1: his company to say, what about this book or medic
Speaker 1: magic that's a and they said, well, we don't like it.
Speaker 1: Why is that I have all these letters? You know
Speaker 1: this as well? He quotes from German sources we've never
Speaker 1: heard of, and he says things we've never heard before.
Speaker 1: That was grounds for rejection in the occult orthodoxy. You see,
Speaker 1: you would think, wouldn't you think that someone who's interested
Speaker 1: in what is hidden, who's interested in the occult in quotes,
Speaker 1: would want to hear something that they'd never heard before,
Speaker 1: would want to get something new in sight. But no,
Speaker 1: that's not true. What people want to hear is what
Speaker 1: they already know. That makes them happy, that makes them
Speaker 1: think you're really a clever, intelligent man.
Speaker 3: I'll talk to myself all day if I want to
Speaker 3: do that.
Speaker 1: But that is the way I'm not saying that. You know,
Speaker 1: it's sort of a true is. But when you get
Speaker 1: into it like this little and I just told you,
Speaker 1: see how it works, how it is real, you know.
Speaker 1: And of course that's one of the things that's about
Speaker 1: self publishing. The world we live in now is kind
Speaker 1: of liberated people now, it's a free for all, and
Speaker 1: that's one of one of my old persons, we're entering
Speaker 1: into a new dark age, and he saw, foresaw what
Speaker 1: is happening, that the dark age will be the exception
Speaker 1: of it, and its nature will be much that the
Speaker 1: truth or the good stuff, let's just say, is so
Speaker 1: buried under a bunch of you know, goal that it
Speaker 1: will be impossible to find. You know, it's not that
Speaker 1: it's not there, it's that it's been swamped by things.
Speaker 1: And then who trains the mind of the young heads
Speaker 1: full of mush to be able to discriminate? That is eliminated.
Speaker 1: Also the guy critical thinking that we're not using the
Speaker 1: Frontfort school definition of critical, but their actual definition of
Speaker 1: critical with criteria using critical thinking of skills to say
Speaker 1: this is more reliable than that, and this is why,
Speaker 1: and so forth. Those skills have been greatly diminished in
Speaker 1: our society, and the supply of uh craziness has been
Speaker 1: so amped up that I would say that that professor
Speaker 1: was a prophetic man saying we are entering into a
Speaker 1: new dark age. Masquerading is in a world of enlightenment.
Speaker 2: Oh man, just mascuerading.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's but it's still but we But but
Speaker 1: I think that in the that there could be that
Speaker 1: that that there is good things on the horizon, in
Speaker 1: the sense that naturally the missing element is the idea
Speaker 1: of of of education, of training minds that to think
Speaker 1: in the good old fashion critical way with good evidence
Speaker 1: and good uh theories and so forth that get at
Speaker 1: the truth about what is meaningful, important and so forth,
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And to that end, this is
Speaker 1: my greatest project coming up. I'm just going starting it
Speaker 1: a thing called the wood Harrow School, in which I
Speaker 1: now I'm seventy two years old. I could not get
Speaker 1: a job in academia for the reasons I've kind of
Speaker 1: alluded to. But I wrote a lot of books, over
Speaker 1: fifty of them now, but I never got to teach,
Speaker 1: you know what I was trained to teach. And so
Speaker 1: now with the technology that exists, I am going to
Speaker 1: do this thing. Going to have a school. We're going
Speaker 1: to have basic courses, and I'm going to teach all
Speaker 1: of the things that I was taught and that I
Speaker 1: also taught for several years in the university, UH, and
Speaker 1: have a coherent curriculum for the training of someone in
Speaker 1: old Germanic called Germanic studies, you know. UH. For example,
Speaker 1: my professor Paulmer i mentioned before, had this whole series
Speaker 1: of courses on early Germanic culture of migration age, Viking age,
Speaker 1: you know, whole courses in that uh. And I took everything.
Speaker 1: And he, of course, a man like that in our
Speaker 1: academic world are referred to in the German world as
Speaker 1: he is my doctor father, they call him, which is
Speaker 1: a doctor father. He is your father in academia. He
Speaker 1: is you know, Alma mater is your university. But then
Speaker 1: you have a doctor father who is your sort of
Speaker 1: the man who initiates you and who is your mentor.
Speaker 1: And so a lot of what I do is a
Speaker 1: carrying on of his teaching to me, and I will
Speaker 1: I won't pass that on. And now I'm seventy two
Speaker 1: years old, but a lot of guys were died at
Speaker 1: that age, you know. Uh. And so this is my
Speaker 1: big project on the horizons is to do this recording
Speaker 1: me complete. It's not just like I hear these things
Speaker 1: on the internet. I'm going to teach you about old
Speaker 1: Germanic tradition or whatever it is. They say is that
Speaker 1: it's going to be six hours of lecture. You don't
Speaker 1: believe that what's going to happen here is Selby's Are
Speaker 1: you kidding me? Is that a university course even one?
Speaker 3: No, that's like three classes.
Speaker 1: Weeks for that week, three hours for sixteen weeks. Listen,
Speaker 1: and that's I'm not going to short change people. That's
Speaker 1: what they're going to get. They're that kind and level
Speaker 1: of teaching. And I did teach at the university level
Speaker 1: for five years, and so I'm well aware of how
Speaker 1: it's done and what to do. But it's not being
Speaker 1: Despite the fact that the technology exists for this kind
Speaker 1: of thing, no one is doing it. And the reason
Speaker 1: why they're not doing it is because the younger generation
Speaker 1: people still have the energy to do it, weren't taught
Speaker 1: that way, you know, And so there's only the old school,
Speaker 1: the old geezers. I had a couple of friends who
Speaker 1: caught the the old guard, you know, at the last minute,
Speaker 1: just before they retired, and we got some people, you know,
Speaker 1: through the PhD program. That's one of the things about
Speaker 1: the Rune Guild. I was just incredibly pleased to see.
Speaker 1: It wasn't something I said, this is what you ought
Speaker 1: to do. Is just kind of leading by example. I
Speaker 1: suppose that we have seven PhDs in our midst, you know,
Speaker 1: from major universities. Now, one time I was at a
Speaker 1: sort of this pagan gathering and this guy was there
Speaker 1: and you know, just this old guy who's older than
Speaker 1: me at the time that he had was a druid.
Speaker 1: He said that he had like a straw hat with
Speaker 1: a bunch of artificial flowers around, you know, the rim
Speaker 1: of the hat, and uh, this is doctor flowers, it's all.
Speaker 1: I'm a PhD also, And I said, oh, and I
Speaker 1: asked the natural question, where did you go to school?
Speaker 1: You know, I mean, that's what your first question you
Speaker 1: want is where was you go? And he goes and
Speaker 1: he looks up, you know, kind of glances up in
Speaker 1: the skies, go oh, what was the name of that place?
Speaker 1: Of course it was some kind of you know, correspondence
Speaker 1: course or bumpthing. You know, this is like decades ago,
Speaker 1: so it wasn't on the internet, I don't think. But
Speaker 1: you know, that was selling the areas you're a doctor
Speaker 1: of druidism, you know, or whatever. And of course that's
Speaker 1: become quite common because but you can only pass on
Speaker 1: what you got. It's kind of like that thing with
Speaker 1: the magical entities. I was talking as you can only
Speaker 1: be who you, who's informing you. I mean, there's a
Speaker 1: chain of and that's what tradition is all about. It's
Speaker 1: not so many people focus on papers and I got
Speaker 1: a license to do this, you know, from so and so.
Speaker 1: You know, some kind of Masonic thing, that kind of
Speaker 1: a deal. But it's no, It's about people connection real beings,
Speaker 1: talking about animism, real beings and your connection to them.
Speaker 1: They could be human, they could be something other than human.
Speaker 1: My connection first started with getting the spirit when when
Speaker 1: Odin spoke to me, there's nothing new was shocking for
Speaker 1: anyone here to hear. I've told a story many times
Speaker 1: about when I heard the word oruna, when the old
Speaker 1: man whispered in my ear, this is it. And like
Speaker 1: I always say, when a god speaks to you for real,
Speaker 1: all he needs is one word if it's a real
Speaker 1: and you'll spend the rest of your life understand that word.
Speaker 1: Won't be like well, I channeled this prit this MP
Speaker 1: and dictated this whole big book to me. I don't
Speaker 1: I can't understand what it means.
Speaker 3: But you know, you know, I've heard of the magicians
Speaker 3: say that I'm.
Speaker 1: Talking about Crowley here, I'm talking about you know, the
Speaker 1: people who you know, the channeled being back in the
Speaker 1: eighties or whenever it was, you know, they were these
Speaker 1: long yeah uh books you know of wisdom from these
Speaker 1: extraterrestrial beings. That it sounded a whole life like Madam
Speaker 1: Blotsky to me. You know.
Speaker 3: So that's interesting what you said about trying to figure
Speaker 3: out that name. I've heard. I've kind of heard other magicians.
Speaker 3: I guess I say that before. So when you said that,
Speaker 3: I was like, I've heard that. Very interesting. Uh, Lisa,
Speaker 3: did you say you had another question about something?
Speaker 4: YEAHHLER had another question.
Speaker 6: I had a question. Yeah, sure, I can jump in
Speaker 6: real quick.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 6: And this sounds maybe like a narrow question, but I
Speaker 6: think it actually has kind a broad application to magical
Speaker 6: practice and things.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 6: You've written in a few places particularly. The one that
Speaker 6: comes to mind is in footh Arc when you're talking
Speaker 6: about the Dogaus Route, you mentioned the mystery of Odin
Speaker 6: as being this kind of central You've used the word omnijective.
Speaker 6: I think elsewhere this sort of this omnijective point at
Speaker 6: which polarities, dualities are sort of collapsed. And you've written
Speaker 6: about this not just as an interesting kind of conceptual idea,
Speaker 6: but as a point of experience too, So it's actually
Speaker 6: an exponentially you know, uh state. And I was wondering
Speaker 6: because immediately, based on the language that you used to
Speaker 6: describe this, it evoked the non duality, of the non
Speaker 6: dualism that we encounter so often in an Eastern context.
Speaker 6: And I'm wondering if these things are these things equivalent,
Speaker 6: and if they're not equivalent, what distinctives do we need
Speaker 6: to keep in mind to prevent kind of obliterating the
Speaker 6: particularities in homogenization.
Speaker 1: Well, there is of course a connection between the so
Speaker 1: called East and West, and that's what becomes immediately obvious
Speaker 1: when one gets into Indo European studies. And also that
Speaker 1: is that the Veda, the Veda and the Edda are
Speaker 1: very closely related, not in substance, although there's a auto Veda,
Speaker 1: there is a passage which is almost word for word
Speaker 1: a spell or an incantation that is, we know from
Speaker 1: Manic magic just about the bone to bone and send
Speaker 1: you to sin you in the healings. So this is
Speaker 1: almost exact same thing because they are very close to
Speaker 1: one another. And so the idea of this East West
Speaker 1: and sort of a nineteenth century when when we discovered
Speaker 1: I mean we the Europeans discovered the East. You know,
Speaker 1: when they figured out, hey, Sanskrit is related to our language.
Speaker 1: Is no thing uh uh that there's really not. As
Speaker 1: I pointed out, I tried to emphasize in my I
Speaker 1: think I did it in the Lords of Left Hand Path.
Speaker 1: You know that there's really uh. East and West is
Speaker 1: a false dichotomy. You could say China or you know,
Speaker 1: the Far East is different. But India and the Indian
Speaker 1: ideas about these dualities, there's coruxier question the idea of
Speaker 1: these sort of duality between let's just say any duality
Speaker 1: is something that is something that is a part of
Speaker 1: people's thinking about overcoming it, about experiencing it, about using it,
Speaker 1: but about it being there is something very close to
Speaker 1: whether you see the Germanic tradition, it's heavily imbued with
Speaker 1: this idea of duality. Look at the eight Thrust, this
Speaker 1: idea of these nine worlds and how they are arranged. Okay,
Speaker 1: so there is an upper world, oscar, there's a lower
Speaker 1: the hell between up and down, between east and west,
Speaker 1: between north and south. All of these things are dualism. Okay,
Speaker 1: but they're not done to say this one is good
Speaker 1: and this one is bad. They are just kind of
Speaker 1: the sources of energy, right energy. Uh, when when you
Speaker 1: like electra electro magnetic electricity, magnetism, these kinds of things
Speaker 1: are sources of energy. What people the moralistic, the monarchy
Speaker 1: and kind of perversion. Uh, to give a bad name
Speaker 1: to a good word. But uh, you know the idea
Speaker 1: that that there is something good and bad inheriting up
Speaker 1: and down in east and west. It one has to
Speaker 1: be good and one has to be bad. Now, I'm
Speaker 1: a great fan of written three books on the idea
Speaker 1: of Mosdism, the actual uh Iranian dualism, which was not
Speaker 1: good and bad. But it is good and bad, but
Speaker 1: it's not between the things that people normally think of
Speaker 1: as that way. That is, it's a moral dualism. This
Speaker 1: even the famous, most famous critic of good and evil, Preetrichnietzsche,
Speaker 1: So beyond good and evil, Well, he didn't say he
Speaker 1: was railing against a hundred different things that he thought
Speaker 1: were bad and a hundred other ones he thought were good.
Speaker 1: He didn't really go beyond the good and the bad.
Speaker 1: He was criticizing the idea of Christian morality, but not
Speaker 1: necessarily that there's something there's nothing good about the slaves
Speaker 1: morality that's bad. You know, we don't want to have
Speaker 1: this other thing. So he was not really rejecting the
Speaker 1: idea of having a dualism between good and bad things,
Speaker 1: but rather simply between this idea of being morally good
Speaker 1: and morally bad. So this omnijective idea is that Oathen
Speaker 1: is one that doesn't say, okay, one is good, one
Speaker 1: is bad. No, they are both sources of power. And
Speaker 1: so you reach out from your central position to grasp
Speaker 1: the electro and the magnetic, and you grasp them and
Speaker 1: you bring them into yourself, and you charge yourself with
Speaker 1: these polarized powers. And so that is what brings this
Speaker 1: dualism to a point of say, a source of power
Speaker 1: and of energy, not of moralizing between good and evil,
Speaker 1: rejecting one in favor of the other, et cetera. Uh.
Speaker 1: But we are full of UH in a Germanic mythology,
Speaker 1: ideas of more morality and and good and bad and
Speaker 1: so forth. Uh. But we see in the person of Oden,
Speaker 1: the archetype of Oden. We see the sort of the
Speaker 1: the real UH, a kind of a criminal you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, but someone who has to take responsibility for
Speaker 1: his crimes. What does Oden do well? One thing? For example,
Speaker 1: he begins the world by killing a kinsman. Who is
Speaker 1: this giant? Who who is the universe as it were,
Speaker 1: the body of the universe. Uh. But he says ultimate
Speaker 1: ancestores like his great granddaddy, let's say. And he looks
Speaker 1: at this creature's this entities world that he has, and
Speaker 1: he says, I can do better. I can make a
Speaker 1: better world than this one than this swamp of degradation
Speaker 1: that you've got here, this chaos of nonsense. I can
Speaker 1: make a better world. And so I'm going to kill you,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to chop you up, and I'm going
Speaker 1: to use your body to create a more ordered, more
Speaker 1: beautiful creation. And that's the world we live in now,
Speaker 1: with all of the miraculous spectacle of the sky, of
Speaker 1: the night sky of the sun and the moon, and
Speaker 1: how they are perfect balance with one another, and all
Speaker 1: the things we experienced daily. Uh. Uh, that this beauty
Speaker 1: that this divine entity creating. Uh. You know the whole
Speaker 1: controversy that people or the gray John about between intelligent
Speaker 1: design and creation and the atheists saying, oh, it's just
Speaker 1: a bunch of you know, things just happened to come
Speaker 1: together this way, and that whole debate, if you will,
Speaker 1: between God and intelligent design and evolution, and you look
Speaker 1: at the Germanic tradition, and so we know all about
Speaker 1: that already. Uh we us vikings here that people at
Speaker 1: that academy makes so much fun of. You know, well
Speaker 1: we we we know young evolution occurred without an intelligent design,
Speaker 1: and it went a certain way, a certain dens distance.
Speaker 1: But then something happened and mind consciousness coalesced and became
Speaker 1: an active force in the universe, and it destroyed what
Speaker 1: existed and recreated it intelligently. That's what the heada tells us.
Speaker 1: There was something there, something that evolved, coalesced, crystallized and
Speaker 1: acted in a conscious way and recreated the world in
Speaker 1: a more sensible, intelligent, and beautiful way. And that's what
Speaker 1: we live in now. And that's the battle that Othen
Speaker 1: carries out is constantly trying to maintain. It's not a
Speaker 1: trying to maintain the good, the good order, the good
Speaker 1: social order, the good physical and order, and so forth
Speaker 1: and so and so. That is what that mythology is about.
Speaker 1: And bring the ruins back into it. That is a
Speaker 1: similarly say like, well, we these Romans have a writing system,
Speaker 1: but it's devoid of anything poetic or beautiful as we
Speaker 1: understand it. And so let's take that idea that they
Speaker 1: just think of as just a mundane, pragmatic thing that
Speaker 1: they got from the Greeks and so forth, and let's
Speaker 1: recreate it in a more beautiful and meaningful way. And
Speaker 1: that's what the runic system is for them and for
Speaker 1: us if we rediscover it. It's which we have now.
Speaker 1: But these oden is the embodiment. There's a great academic
Speaker 1: article from the early seventies now called the Psychological and
Speaker 1: Mythic Unity of the God odin kind of a union approach.
Speaker 1: Uh and uh they're they're the The author Richard Auld
Speaker 1: points out that this God is a dualistic I mean,
Speaker 1: it wasn't what I wrote in fruth Art was influenced
Speaker 1: by this book, which is this article, which is these
Speaker 1: dualities are intense. They're not done away with it bye
Speaker 1: bye by homogenizing them into a milk sup ground. No,
Speaker 1: that's not it. You bring these the full power of
Speaker 1: one side and the full power of the other together
Speaker 1: and there you have a dynamic explosion of energy bringing
Speaker 1: these things together. So that's what the dualism. Now, you
Speaker 1: don't generally find that approach as the aim of the
Speaker 1: so called Eastern ideas. I think probably originally it was
Speaker 1: something like that. But of course, the religion of the
Speaker 1: rug Veda, you know, and the religion of Hinduism, which
Speaker 1: is its direct descendant, are very different from one another.
Speaker 1: You know, I mean the vading, the sacrifice, so for
Speaker 1: what they sacrifice for for long life and prosperity. They
Speaker 1: thought the people of the Arian what I classes when
Speaker 1: these people were like, you know, vaded cowboys. These were cowboys.
Speaker 1: They were cattle herding, meat eating. They've been right at home,
Speaker 1: you know, in the Yellowstone set right, these guys that
Speaker 1: invaded India, they were cowboys and they their religion and
Speaker 1: Hinduism are very different from one another. Even though the
Speaker 1: Hindu says the Ruveda is the foundation of the religion,
Speaker 1: it has been completely reinterpreted to say that this world
Speaker 1: is a world of sorrow, some sorrow, and we want
Speaker 1: to get out of it. Please do not. I don't
Speaker 1: want to be reborn in this hellhole of earth. Whereas
Speaker 1: the original idea is this world do we live in
Speaker 1: is as close to paradise as you'll ever find, you know,
Speaker 1: is wonderful and beautiful, and we want to be here
Speaker 1: and we want to stay here. There's a passage, you
Speaker 1: know in the Edda which has where Brindhi famous brand
Speaker 1: him is being cursed by hug Need is saying she's
Speaker 1: being being burned on the pyre with sig, which is,
Speaker 1: let's do you find in India? In there this idea
Speaker 1: of Suti where the wife is sacrificed with the husband.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a very ancient thing and he says
Speaker 1: to her head a curse form. He says, may she
Speaker 1: never be reborn in this world, you know, because that
Speaker 1: would be the most horrible thing because what people want
Speaker 1: to be is reborn here. That's the reward, that's the good.
Speaker 1: That's what this valhalla symbol and metaphor is all about,
Speaker 1: you know about well men will they rise up and
Speaker 1: they'll fight, and they'll die, and they'll be reborn the next
Speaker 1: day and start all over again. You know, that's just
Speaker 1: saying that's that kind of life, that kind of dynam
Speaker 1: is and that sort of life force and living and
Speaker 1: being and and and it's great. We love it where
Speaker 1: we are now, we love it. We want to keep
Speaker 1: it going, we want this to continue. You know. That
Speaker 1: was their attitude. It's an attitude of not uh, of
Speaker 1: getting away from this world, but they're staying here and
Speaker 1: being here, uh, and that that's fundamentally different. So that's
Speaker 1: one of the things where you know, when you study
Speaker 1: the history of religion, you see that, you know, things
Speaker 1: haven't always been the way they appear to be, and
Speaker 1: a lot of things that you think are far apart
Speaker 1: are really quite close. You know. The Germanic world, Celtic
Speaker 1: world also was profoundly affected by the invasions of the
Speaker 1: of the Iranian peoples, uh, the Sarmatians and the Scythians,
Speaker 1: who when we think of Iranian, we think of the Persians,
Speaker 1: and they really didn't, you know, that's what they looked like.
Speaker 1: But anyway, these people were uh were step horsemen, you know,
Speaker 1: the step people, which were like the originally into Europeans themselves. Uh.
Speaker 1: And they were there in Europe uh at the time.
Speaker 1: And Tacitus mentions the Sarmatians and the Germanic people and uh,
Speaker 1: but there a lot of the ideas that they brought
Speaker 1: in and reinforced among the Celts, and then the Germanic
Speaker 1: people were profound and some of the things about the
Speaker 1: uh cosmology and all sorts of things were Scythian or
Speaker 1: Sarmatian in origin, it seems. And one of the great
Speaker 1: sort of signposts of this is that the art form,
Speaker 1: the interlace art form, and things we associate with Celtic
Speaker 1: and Germanic art are directly of Sarmatian origin, which were
Speaker 1: these Iranian peoples, and they had a profound effect. I
Speaker 1: wrote an article in the journal Tear of which they
Speaker 1: heard of about the Germanic and Iranian religions and traditions
Speaker 1: and so forth in their comparison, many huge catalog the
Speaker 1: catalog of details. But you know the roosters. I just
Speaker 1: got a rooster where our friend of ours died and
Speaker 1: we had a rooster there, and so we brought him home.
Speaker 1: So I've had this rooster for a while, and so
Speaker 1: I named him Potto darsh, which is the Persian war.
Speaker 1: They foresees the dawn, you know these I learned that
Speaker 1: the roosters start crowing like hours before the sun comes up.
Speaker 1: They're not responding. They know. It's like a couple of hours.
Speaker 1: He starts about four o'clock in the morning. And that's
Speaker 1: what this thing is like. The rooster foresees the coming
Speaker 1: of day and it calls people to action. And that's
Speaker 1: what you see in the Edda and in this Iranian
Speaker 1: tradition in the Avesta, and that's the power and the
Speaker 1: meaning of the rooster is just what appears to be
Speaker 1: a trivial, you know, but you find that they were
Speaker 1: extremely important to the Iranian people. Uh. The Greeks called
Speaker 1: the rooster the Persian bird. It was so important. But uh,
Speaker 1: the uh. But these kind of little trivial things that
Speaker 1: they will you'll see this one after the other that
Speaker 1: you find in the Norse tradition and in the Iranian tradition,
Speaker 1: which seems so far apart, you know, people say, how
Speaker 1: could it be, it's crazy, No, it's not, because look
Speaker 1: at that the Sarmatian they were intimately involved. There's a
Speaker 1: whole book on you know, the whole Amazon, the Volkirie idea,
Speaker 1: right because of Sarmatian women for example, had to so
Speaker 1: the custom went had to kill a man in battle,
Speaker 1: of an enemy man in battle before she was allowed
Speaker 1: to marry. It's obviously a eugenics program, right, that only
Speaker 1: a woman of that caliber. That's the origin of the
Speaker 1: Amazon mythology. Also, the city and women did the same,
Speaker 1: so you know, they would killed warriors, they were warriors,
Speaker 1: and that's this idea of the Vola curis and so
Speaker 1: they were real and the women were bed. The Viking
Speaker 1: age did fight and they did that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Uh So these kind of you won't find a Greek
Speaker 1: woman doing that or a Roman woman doing that. That
Speaker 1: would just freak a Roman dude out, except a Spartan
Speaker 1: woman maybe. But you know, for the most part, that
Speaker 1: is taboo. That is just unbelievable, that can't be. But
Speaker 1: the Norse people that was fine. That was and that's
Speaker 1: that link. It's not just into European a specific kind
Speaker 1: of uh connection between the these Iranian people and I
Speaker 1: use the word Iranian. It's like this big, big giant world.
Speaker 1: Scythians and Sarmatians are not like the very different culture
Speaker 1: you know from the hyper civilized world of Persia, but
Speaker 1: same you know, same group. But but so these are
Speaker 1: That's always important to realize. I think the history of
Speaker 1: these ideas and how when historical information can say this
Speaker 1: is not this is understandable and quite quite quite clear,
Speaker 1: you know, as to where these things come from and
Speaker 1: how they evolved. But only in later times does it
Speaker 1: seem that it's unbelievable. It's ridiculous. This is art bell stuff,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, this is crazy. This can't happen. No,
Speaker 1: it's just an ordinary pretty uh pretty clear as to
Speaker 1: how these things happen. But it's list.
Speaker 2: I have a quick question for you, doctor Flowers. Sorry
Speaker 2: about that. I just wanted to sort of revisit this
Speaker 2: idea of the poisonous story, like story misapplied to the
Speaker 2: different frameworks that are occulted by nature. So you're one
Speaker 2: of the first people I've really heard discuss like the
Speaker 2: misapplication of story or history or Parahi history to the
Speaker 2: Runa or the derunes in particular. But I think this
Speaker 2: is also important in just a sort of metamogical lens
Speaker 2: in general. Like I think that there is a kind
Speaker 2: of interest, especially from some of your quotes and some
Speaker 2: of your protegees like Don Web and Toby Shoppel in
Speaker 2: the lovecrafty and mythos, and I'm very interested in, like,
Speaker 2: what are your thoughts on this kind of I'm calling
Speaker 2: it appropriation but I don't mean it in a misappropriation,
Speaker 2: and I just mean that use of it by them
Speaker 2: to describe magical ideas. So maybe words containing the logos
Speaker 2: of meaning, and they're sort of adopting this different framework
Speaker 2: to describe it. And I wanted to hear if you
Speaker 2: had me either positive or negative thoughts on that.
Speaker 1: Well, the idea of neo mythology and the like creating
Speaker 1: subjective world mythologies in other words, to say we are
Speaker 1: creating normally, a tradition is something which is received from
Speaker 1: previous But if you say, like, well this person, an
Speaker 1: individual created a new mythology and now these other people
Speaker 1: are making use of that as if it were a
Speaker 1: tradition when it's not. Uh. And what I'm saying here
Speaker 1: is that that is an exercise in this uh uh.
Speaker 1: You know, this old principle of being able to create meaning.
Speaker 1: If you can do that doesn't mean that meaning is
Speaker 1: you're that the mean meaning? Actual traditional things are insulted
Speaker 1: or misdirectly, it is an exercise in being able to
Speaker 1: create meaning. And that the idea that I was bringing
Speaker 1: up with, oh than recreating the world he had a
Speaker 1: world he received, but he says not good enough, I
Speaker 1: want to exercise like an artist. I want to do
Speaker 1: and that is something that you are able, that we
Speaker 1: are able to do it, and that people do it,
Speaker 1: and that they find a meaning in it. Is a
Speaker 1: powerful exercise in, for example, the idea of left hand path.
Speaker 1: Uh uh, creativity. Right, So if you don't just accept,
Speaker 1: you don't only just accept what is given to you,
Speaker 1: but rather you take it upon yourself. If you have
Speaker 1: the talent, ability and strength to create, to be a
Speaker 1: godlike creates an exercise in being a god. So that
Speaker 1: is like, that's the way I look at it. I
Speaker 1: think the way most people within the you know, tradition do.
Speaker 1: That's only certain people would actually say, well, I think
Speaker 1: that love credit is really into the cold Man, and
Speaker 1: he was revealing, you know, the truth about something really
Speaker 1: deep and he's a you know, of course anybody knows
Speaker 1: anything about love crad No, you know that was not
Speaker 1: the case. So but the fact that a subsequent generation
Speaker 1: could make you, you could could use us in a
Speaker 1: conscious and godlike way, is what is being exercised here
Speaker 1: with the idea of the neo mythology and creating magical Well, ako,
Speaker 1: you know, somebody like a John D. You know, creating
Speaker 1: the Anachian system and that sort of thing, uh like,
Speaker 1: is that from somewhere else? So it's it's like made
Speaker 1: up here, but it's used work. So you know that
Speaker 1: again is an exercise in uh human creativity. One thing
Speaker 1: we know, you know, does god exist? Does a god exists? Well,
Speaker 1: sort of setting an answer as well, yes that does.
Speaker 1: Because you have intelligence, you have consciousness, and he has
Speaker 1: it and she has it? And where did it come from?
Speaker 1: It must have come from somewhere and we all got
Speaker 1: it for most of us got it. It's very if
Speaker 1: we can It's like benium of Frankulently. You know, you
Speaker 1: have a republic if you can keep it. You have
Speaker 1: consciousness if you can keep it, develop it and and
Speaker 1: strengthen it. But so that is the thing that we
Speaker 1: say that we have that power, and it does just
Speaker 1: because we have the well, we have the potential for
Speaker 1: that power and we have the possibility of being able
Speaker 1: to exercise it in a beneficial I mean that that
Speaker 1: it is a way in which it helps us, doesn't
Speaker 1: just make us crazy. You know, it can also do that.
Speaker 1: That's why, like Michael Aqueino said, you know, black magic
Speaker 1: is dangerous. It is dangerous and people say, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: to be destroyed by the demons where you could be,
Speaker 1: but they're probably demons of your own creation, you know. Uh.
Speaker 1: But being able to you know, you've got to be
Speaker 1: able to handle the explosives that you're using, you know,
Speaker 1: with with with care and wisdom and to make you
Speaker 1: so that it helps you and doesn't hurt you. And
Speaker 1: that's why a lot of people just stay away from it,
Speaker 1: don't risk it, right. And of course, like I said
Speaker 1: earlier earlier on here about the grimoires and that sort
Speaker 1: of thing about saying that your sword has to be
Speaker 1: so long and this kind of that was just the
Speaker 1: you know there the seals on the systems involved. So
Speaker 1: people say, I'm not going to mess with this. It's
Speaker 1: too complicated. It's to it's not. But that fact is
Speaker 1: something you know doesn't help you, you know, but you
Speaker 1: got it can be much simpler, well, much harder, but
Speaker 1: much simpler. H So does that answer the question about
Speaker 1: new mythology at all?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? And just a quick follow up is how important
Speaker 2: do you think the cometic mythologies or the cometic system
Speaker 2: is to understanding we're now or the rooms Because we've
Speaker 2: heard this from several other people.
Speaker 1: You mean the Egyptian.
Speaker 2: Yes, excuse me, the Egyptian.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I understand what you say, but I just
Speaker 1: didn't you know why. You know, that's cool to use
Speaker 1: a more native turn. But yeah, well, I think that
Speaker 1: the Egyptian system is extremely, extremely powerful, coherent, and the
Speaker 1: problem with it is well, numerous problems. And that's one
Speaker 1: of the things to some uh sentiens and so forth,
Speaker 1: the ones I really try to encourage, not directly, but
Speaker 1: you know, is to discovering or rediscovering the actual you know,
Speaker 1: nothing is more fraught with nonsense than Egyptian things, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, due to the history of us not knowing
Speaker 1: how to read hieroglyphics for so many centuries, and people
Speaker 1: making up Egypt is always important, you know, from the
Speaker 1: Bible or whatever, always by important and powerful in all
Speaker 1: those things. But most of the stuff that was said
Speaker 1: about it is nonsense, you know, and it became codified
Speaker 1: nonsense over centuries of time, and so cutting through this
Speaker 1: to get back to the and a lot of it
Speaker 1: is of the Egyptian's own creation, not just historically, just
Speaker 1: like the role of set, you know, being like, oh,
Speaker 1: he's a demonic, terrible thing. You know, it's like, well, no,
Speaker 1: you know, he's our And of course I had had
Speaker 1: a lot to do with because he's a god of foreigners,
Speaker 1: that every foreigner came there, whether they were exol su
Speaker 1: Persians or whatever, adopted him as their god, because that
Speaker 1: was the only Egyptian god that was acceptable to be adopted,
Speaker 1: you know, because he you know, he likes your He
Speaker 1: is a god of foreigners. You're a foreigner, so he's
Speaker 1: your god. Okay, we'll go with that. You know, whatever
Speaker 1: makes you happy, and you know, just keep the peace.
Speaker 1: But now recently in this century, Egyptologists have really we
Speaker 1: have rediscovered a lot of really important things that cut
Speaker 1: through the nonsense and make it for the first time.
Speaker 1: It's such a difficult thing to understand because I think
Speaker 1: that we there are no Egyptians, right, there are no Egyptians.
Speaker 1: Don't exist anymore. You you know what I mean, You
Speaker 1: understand what I mean. M h.
Speaker 2: There's no one to really carry their scene, you can say, through.
Speaker 1: Time culturally, I mean, it was all cut off and
Speaker 1: they died out or they were absorbed, they just lost
Speaker 1: their identity. When you compare it to let's say, uh,
Speaker 1: the dramatically or Roman or a reigning or whatever. That
Speaker 1: there is a the Indians, or it may have changed,
Speaker 1: but there's a there's there are people who are the
Speaker 1: people are the ancestors still live, you know, and so
Speaker 1: the Egyptians are gone, and so people have u for
Speaker 1: a long time I admired them and and had looked
Speaker 1: to them for meaning, and so they have made meaning
Speaker 1: oftentimes when none was well it was truly there, and
Speaker 1: so that confuses things even more. But through uh, I
Speaker 1: think inquiry, through scholarship, a lot of things have been uh,
Speaker 1: you know, rediscovered. A lot of people have been breaking
Speaker 1: their heads over Egypt for a long time, clever uh,
Speaker 1: the intelligent people, and getting much much closer to understanding
Speaker 1: it and than anyone ever has before. And and of
Speaker 1: course Egypt is so ancient that even within its own
Speaker 1: cultural continuity, things got lost and had to be rediscovered
Speaker 1: and revive even within the timeframe of the Egyptian world. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, that's one of the things that you will say.
Speaker 1: You know, it's no accident that you know, the big
Speaker 1: sort of scientific encyclopedia of Egyptology is actually called, uh,
Speaker 1: the in Cycopedia the Age. You know, it's like in
Speaker 1: German most of it, I mean, because you look at
Speaker 1: German philology, science, linguistics, et cetera, and so forth. One
Speaker 1: of the things was that Germanic things were so hard
Speaker 1: to investigate that these clever German scholars had to develop
Speaker 1: a lot of techniques and methods of uncovering the hidden,
Speaker 1: uncovering what was not known, by using evidence in increasingly
Speaker 1: clever scientific ways to make these these difficult bodies of
Speaker 1: evidence yield their true meaning. And they were interesting. Was
Speaker 1: you know, the Greeks and the Romans they got there,
Speaker 1: so they speak that language. Do we know their language?
Speaker 1: They had all these texts. If you were really interested
Speaker 1: in pagan Greeks or Romans, all you got to do
Speaker 1: is pick up a book and read it. It's right there.
Speaker 1: But we have to the Germans have to deal find
Speaker 1: the manuscripts hidden in Iceland somewhere, dig it up. And
Speaker 1: so in that whole process they developed methods and of
Speaker 1: understanding difficult bodies of evidence, and that then became applied
Speaker 1: to everything, you know, whether it was studying the Babylonians
Speaker 1: or finding Troy or doing this that are just applying
Speaker 1: these methods to all kinds of cultures and so that's
Speaker 1: why you know that that that uh, we're using that
Speaker 1: and it doesn't happen overnight. But you know, we have
Speaker 1: been able to dig up a lot of things about
Speaker 1: Egyptian culture, religion, mythology that was previously buried under either
Speaker 1: ignorance or misformation, made up stuff.
Speaker 8: You know, Hi, Stephen, I'm a headless giant, and I
Speaker 8: just had a couple of points to make on the
Speaker 8: whole Setian analatry sort of idea when it comes to
Speaker 8: Old Testament and Egyptian language.
Speaker 1: What are the.
Speaker 8: Problems that a lot of people find with the Egyptian
Speaker 8: language is that it's a consonant only language, so it's
Speaker 8: not including the vowel sounds that make that fill out
Speaker 8: these words, and so a lot of times people will
Speaker 8: find that they were only filled in with ease. Right, So,
Speaker 8: somehow all of these Egyptian words are filled in with ease,
Speaker 8: and that's probably not the case when it comes to
Speaker 8: pronouncing these words in the Egyptian language. So that proved
Speaker 8: an impediment right there, as well as the fact that
Speaker 8: in the Bible they refer to Adam and Eve's third son,
Speaker 8: which would be the progenitor of all of mankind, supposedly
Speaker 8: as set or Seth.
Speaker 1: In Greek, it was called Greek.
Speaker 8: So there is this sort of recurrent Setian motif that's
Speaker 8: found in the Bible and also found in Roman. I
Speaker 8: guess you would call it graffiti, as they were mocking
Speaker 8: the Christians and the Jews as being anoalators. And so
Speaker 8: the very first graffiti of Christianity would be the analatry
Speaker 8: of Jesus having a donkey's head, and that donkey's head
Speaker 8: is representative of the god set And if you look
Speaker 8: at the reports from the desecration of the Second Temple
Speaker 8: by Antiochus Sepaphanis, you find that he was talking about
Speaker 8: this golden donkey head inside of the Second Temple, and
Speaker 8: also this giant marble statue of Moses writing the donkey.
Speaker 8: And you've also got the reports from the New Testament
Speaker 8: of Jesus writing the donkey, and all of these things
Speaker 8: sort of relate back to this anolatry sort of coming
Speaker 8: out of Egypt.
Speaker 1: And we also see that the.
Speaker 8: Septuage was written in Alexandria, Egypt. So there's this huge
Speaker 8: crossover between Setianism and the roots of Christianity and ancient Judaism.
Speaker 1: Do you have any thoughts on that? Well, those all
Speaker 1: those things you mentioned. First of all about the language,
Speaker 1: I mean, the Coptic language helps us a whole lot
Speaker 1: of that, you know, since that is the descendant of
Speaker 1: ancient Egyptian and it has all the vowels you'd ever want.
Speaker 1: But the other things are most of the things that,
Speaker 1: you know, the examples you're bringing up here, you know,
Speaker 1: are extremely recent by Egyptians standards of you know, like
Speaker 1: antiquity and things like that. As far as the you know,
Speaker 1: the stories may be ascribed to older things, but they
Speaker 1: are more recent thing and said the God said to
Speaker 1: the god of the nineteenth, eighteenth and nineteenth dynasties of
Speaker 1: the Egyptian. You know, it's a different sort of creature
Speaker 1: in norways than one, and so it has this whole.
Speaker 1: Is the Martian, you know, the god Mars, if you will,
Speaker 1: the war god of the ancient Egyptians with Uh and Ramises,
Speaker 1: the greatest polity, I suppose, the greatest pharaoh of all. Right,
Speaker 1: Ramis is the second is the great is a Seti
Speaker 1: So and of course he was we have his mommy.
Speaker 1: He was one of the ones where and he was
Speaker 1: flaming red hair. There's all of it. And that's one
Speaker 1: of the things ascribed to set Uh and to the
Speaker 1: followers have set is that they're based on this. It
Speaker 1: wasn't because of you know, redhead Uh. You know, there
Speaker 1: are stereotypical things about redheads, you know in general, but
Speaker 1: the about their anger, their volatility. So but that's more
Speaker 1: European kind of stereotypes. Uh. He was a foreigner, you know,
Speaker 1: that family where a bunch of foreigners from somewhere else.
Speaker 1: But that was true of so many Seti and people.
Speaker 1: I mean, well, it's again like I mentioned the Heksaus
Speaker 1: of the Persians. I mean, he wouldn't say, oh, the
Speaker 1: Persians are going to worship was set and he's considered
Speaker 1: to be a kind of an evil god, which is
Speaker 1: not true, but if he is can be considered that
Speaker 1: later towards the end of the Egypt you wouldn't think
Speaker 1: Persians would be into that because they're you know, the
Speaker 1: worship of bah Ramazda, the Lowi's lord. So I would
Speaker 1: was a player of Apep.
Speaker 8: They had many different myths about the slayers of Apep,
Speaker 8: this chaos serpent, and so set was one of the
Speaker 8: slayers of this chaos serpent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so but you know that now that's the set
Speaker 1: that we're really you know, is the set of ramises,
Speaker 1: let's say, and again we're dealing with Egypt. My god,
Speaker 1: there's this thousands of years some history. Nobody has anything,
Speaker 1: you know, to match that kind of continuity. It's over,
Speaker 1: it's gone. But there was continuity there for so long,
Speaker 1: and it underwent so many changes that to make any
Speaker 1: you know, that's why you really have to talk about
Speaker 1: to be precise about, you know, about this time period
Speaker 1: and not confuse the time period. Almost confusing light antiquity
Speaker 1: Ptolemaic Egypt with eighteenth dynasty is like, well, you might
Speaker 1: as well be China in Ireland, you know. But I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not that extreme, but you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a lot of differences going on.
Speaker 8: There are so many attempts by the Ptolemaic dynasties to
Speaker 8: try and truly understand the depths of the Egyptian wisdom.
Speaker 8: And you see that in characters like Cleopatra, who tried
Speaker 8: her best to learn all of these languages and learn
Speaker 8: all of these connections, and she really doesn't get a
Speaker 8: lot of credit for that. I mean, she was very
Speaker 8: much a scholar and an academic in her time, and
Speaker 8: people just sort of gloss over that and say that
Speaker 8: she was so beautiful, she was more than just a beauty.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's uh. And think of how many how
Speaker 1: long that was that the Greeks were the rulers of Egypt,
Speaker 1: you know, that the people were the pharaohs were Greeks
Speaker 1: or you know, mixed. I'm sure they married, you know,
Speaker 1: intermarried there quite a bit. But but that's why, that's
Speaker 1: the culture. That's why all of our Egyptological terminology, whether
Speaker 1: it's a pyramid or obelisk or whatever, all Greek words
Speaker 1: we rarely ever use Egyptian words if ever, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: for the for these things, you know, because it's so impenetrable.
Speaker 8: But one of the reasons why the septuagen was written
Speaker 8: in Greek instead of Arabic or any of the other
Speaker 8: contemporary languages is because the Hiros Gammos between Greek and
Speaker 8: Egypt was almost you know, central to their spirituality.
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the things is curious about, you know,
Speaker 1: traditions about the Kabbala and that sort of thing as well,
Speaker 1: the idea that well, isn't it curious. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: sure everybody here's somewhat conversed with Kabala, you know, just
Speaker 1: because of it. But you know that we think the
Speaker 1: letters of the Hebrew letters, you know, the Hebrew letters,
Speaker 1: the names of the Hebrew letters are not heb I mean,
Speaker 1: they are in Hebrew, but they're not of Hebrew invention.
Speaker 1: They're Canaanite. And that's they refer to Canaanite mythology, not
Speaker 1: to Hebrew mythology. And that's why no Cobbalists, no Hebrew
Speaker 1: you know, mystic or Jewish person interested in this sort
Speaker 1: of thing makes use of the names of the Hebrew
Speaker 1: letters the way that Germanic enthusiast makes use of the
Speaker 1: names of the rules. This is not relevant. They're numbers.
Speaker 1: But then we go, oh, wait a minute, numbers and
Speaker 1: Hebrew letters. They really weren't used as numbers for a
Speaker 1: while because the earliest manuscripts of the Bible which have
Speaker 1: chapter and number numbered are in Greek letters, not in
Speaker 1: Hebrew letters.
Speaker 8: Isopsophy. Everybody looks over isobsophy. It's so difficult to get
Speaker 8: people to understand that. It's like this came first, that's
Speaker 8: what you're looking at. That other form came later.
Speaker 1: Right, And I mean, you know, but real. It's one
Speaker 1: of the things about like real Jewish, real people, not
Speaker 1: not you know, those who idolize the Jewish tradition, but
Speaker 1: rather the Jewish tradition people themselves, you know, are not
Speaker 1: from shoal and read him, you know, it's like he's flock.
Speaker 1: Doesn't shy away from that, but it points out. Look
Speaker 1: at if you go into a synegogue wherever we're you know,
Speaker 1: Kabbala is taught and learned, say this is a continuing
Speaker 1: living tradition from ancient times. It might not be. They
Speaker 1: might not have invented these things, but they created a
Speaker 1: culture in which they have been continued in a living
Speaker 1: way to this day. And that is a that is
Speaker 1: an incredible achievement, you know, culturally, that you have that
Speaker 1: kind of ability to carry that on.
Speaker 8: But this might be very controversial, but do you think
Speaker 8: that the Kabbala has more roots in theogeny than it
Speaker 8: does in hebrewness?
Speaker 1: It is, it's neoplatonism in a Jewish form. I mean
Speaker 1: Garsham Schoulm says that basically, and that's what is and
Speaker 1: that's why I was married to a Jewish woman for
Speaker 1: uh she was a Jewish heritage really in practicing at
Speaker 1: the time, but for seventeen years and knew their family.
Speaker 1: You know, talk to the you know, relatives from Europe
Speaker 1: and all that, and they're old geezers. You know that
Speaker 1: some of them studied Cabala and so forth, and you
Speaker 1: know they would be pointing out, you know, this is
Speaker 1: not Judaism. Kabala is not Judaism. The Rabbi is not
Speaker 1: interested in this. We teach this among ourselves, we have
Speaker 1: our school and we do this, but it is different
Speaker 1: from them. They understood it as being a foreign body
Speaker 1: in their hard in pabalistic six about uh obecures and
Speaker 1: so forth. You know, have made that, but that's not
Speaker 1: the main body to think, you know, with Judyism, but
Speaker 1: it's not the essence of Jutism. We have occultists, you know,
Speaker 1: who kind of grew up as I did, you know,
Speaker 1: the six sixties and seventies whenever, you know, on Crole
Speaker 1: and the Kabbala and you know, an old and God
Speaker 1: and they idolize that. They think and I think that
Speaker 1: this is the origin. You know, the Cabala is the
Speaker 1: origin of everything, and everything's intelligible through the cab through
Speaker 1: the tree of life and becomes all that and becomes
Speaker 1: like an idol, you know, a fetiche. But you know,
Speaker 1: feel it away. So that's not what it is. It's
Speaker 1: not what thank you, you know, it's something. It's big, it's.
Speaker 6: Fantas relative to Egypt, but it actually applies just as
Speaker 6: well to the Hebrews, the Israelites, whatever we're gonna call them. Right,
Speaker 6: is there something because people again from late antiquity as
Speaker 6: previously discussed all the way to guys standing out at
Speaker 6: the corner of one twenty fifth and Malcolm X right
Speaker 6: now claiming to be both a continuation of the ancient
Speaker 6: Egyptians and the ancient Israelites. Right, does do the centuries
Speaker 6: of sort of like creative interpretations and creative attributions that
Speaker 6: are kind of built onto both of these you know, languages,
Speaker 6: these cultures, Does that give them some kind of maybe
Speaker 6: enhanced magical potential kind of in the neo mythological sense.
Speaker 1: Do you think, oh, yeah, theo mythological I like the
Speaker 1: you know, the no matter if something is historically completely nonsense,
Speaker 1: we create a lot of aggreable you know, they are
Speaker 1: like uh, historic paradigmatic eggrigores where you have h theyd
Speaker 1: Yeah they've been created, but they've been established and they've
Speaker 1: been carried on and they've become real, you know, but
Speaker 1: they and part of the mythology is and that's probably
Speaker 1: how a lot of mythology work is that it is
Speaker 1: then retro fitted to say this is what it was
Speaker 1: from the beginning and always was when it was really
Speaker 1: a recent events. But then when that thing goes on
Speaker 1: for a while, we as living in this moment in time,
Speaker 1: interpret it and can feel it as having always been there.
Speaker 1: That's one of the things about uh, like immigrants are
Speaker 1: thinking about. Like Jewish people for example, is a good
Speaker 1: example of this. You know how uh you know this
Speaker 1: family I was a part of for a lot, you know,
Speaker 1: you'd see h that you know they've come over. They
Speaker 1: be practically you know, just to be impoverished and this
Speaker 1: kind of thing. But they're focus on learning and saying
Speaker 1: you've got to learn, go to school, and then they
Speaker 1: have these family h traditions that you know, you know,
Speaker 1: your great grandmother was like the first woman to become
Speaker 1: a doctor in Odessa. You know, I call a bunch
Speaker 1: of nonsense. But see what they do is they instill
Speaker 1: it in the kids, this is possible. You did it before,
Speaker 1: We've done it before, and pretty soon you've got a
Speaker 1: system working there that goes from where a bunch of
Speaker 1: rag pickers and the next generation we're winning Nobel prizes.
Speaker 1: You know, you're saying, you do it, We've done it,
Speaker 1: We're great, We're gonna you know, and uh, you got
Speaker 1: to learn. You got to learn, You got to study.
Speaker 1: You've got to make the great you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: you've got to work hard, but you can it. It
Speaker 1: is possible. But if you tell people it's impossible where
Speaker 1: nobody will never be anybody and forget about it, don't
Speaker 1: work for Let somebody do that for you, et cetera.
Speaker 1: Those are programs for disaster, for cultural disaster, as opposed
Speaker 1: to flip it around and you've got it. Change You
Speaker 1: can change it as a matter of will you know,
Speaker 1: but you got to apply that will Stephen.
Speaker 8: Have you heard of Oswald Spangler's book The Decline of
Speaker 8: the West?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that I think.
Speaker 8: It embodies the idea of theitgeist being certain cultural questions,
Speaker 8: and those cultural questions, once they become answered, then the
Speaker 8: people fall back into that meme of thinking that it's
Speaker 8: okay to just let everybody else do things for them,
Speaker 8: and you know they can they can be fine if
Speaker 8: they just you know, let other people do the work
Speaker 8: that they had been doing and striving for until they
Speaker 8: answered those cultural questions.
Speaker 1: Right, well, yeah, that's why are you know, you just
Speaker 1: got a self. That's part of the message if you will,
Speaker 1: you know, of the ancestors, you know that we need
Speaker 1: nowadays is to hearken back to those people who are
Speaker 1: self reliant and clever and applying themselves heroically, you know,
Speaker 1: against all odds to achieve great things. And you know
Speaker 1: that's what a lot of you know, and again there's
Speaker 1: a lot of just like the Antos telling about the
Speaker 1: people that I know, you know, it doesn't matter who
Speaker 1: they are, but it does. Just paradigms are consistent about
Speaker 1: heroic models and thinking that what is possible and applying
Speaker 1: that and all those things are are real, very practical
Speaker 1: and an individual applications also obviously you know about who
Speaker 1: you are and what's possible for you and h and
Speaker 1: achieving you know that sort of thing. Uh, the magic
Speaker 1: comes in, that's it, I mean, that's part of part
Speaker 1: of yeah, part of certainly changing your subjective universe and uh,
Speaker 1: and as we see that, the subjective universe becomes the
Speaker 1: objective reality regardless. Uh, you know, but it's most interesting
Speaker 1: to me as to how cultures, you know, individuals, any
Speaker 1: individual part of sort of left hand path or setting
Speaker 1: and thinking, you know, it's capable of just about anything
Speaker 1: an individual, uh, but hurting the cats, as doctor Quino
Speaker 1: would say, you know, uh, that's the challenge.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: People think of Michael Aquino, uh, of course as one
Speaker 1: of my close mentors, my friend as well. But uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I think always a political science, military guy
Speaker 1: and all that sort of thing. But you know, you
Speaker 1: would ask a question about politics and he thought, you know,
Speaker 1: we don't want to talk about that ship. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, it's really low, really bad stuff. Right.
Speaker 1: He would just give me a book asking about some politics.
Speaker 1: One of his mentors was Ragavon i Are who the
Speaker 1: professor of political science, and uh this book he wrote
Speaker 1: called uh uh parapolitics. Yeah, you know, anyway, he would say,
Speaker 1: you know, read that. That's all you need to do.
Speaker 1: You know, you certainly don't want to talk about But
Speaker 1: I noticed in studying him, just observing him over the years,
Speaker 1: is that he practiced political thinking in the Temple of
Speaker 1: set in ways that the initiates, most of them don't
Speaker 1: didn't realize. And if you look at the way in
Speaker 1: which the organization has flourished and continued, you know, it's
Speaker 1: a grand working on his part of politics as he
Speaker 1: saw it, the true application in an initiatory environment, you know,
Speaker 1: to create a culture. And then we're talking about creating
Speaker 1: with neo mythologies, et cetera, and so and I see
Speaker 1: that in this instance he was successful so far as
Speaker 1: creating something to live beyond him who which is has
Speaker 1: been created, you know, by design. And it's very difficult.
Speaker 1: I can imagine if all of us have probably been
Speaker 1: involved in occult organizations of one kind or another. And no,
Speaker 1: as he would say, you know, it's like herding cats.
Speaker 8: You know, I'd like to ask you about the book
Speaker 8: then that's sort of what everybody's mind Mind War by
Speaker 8: Michael Akino.
Speaker 1: That's still used a Quino Aquino.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's still used by the Army War College.
Speaker 9: That's one of their required reading texts. Yeah, well, you
Speaker 9: did a lot of things that.
Speaker 1: You know. That way is he's the guy who he
Speaker 1: is the inventor of it. But you know, like Apocalypse
Speaker 1: now where they're like flying over the right of the
Speaker 1: valakyries and all that sort of thing. That was not
Speaker 1: what was done. People would hear he like to play
Speaker 1: Jefferson Airplane, you know, uh there, but he was not
Speaker 1: playing that. Ton't be a calm. That was. They had
Speaker 1: these scientifically created recordings that they were using for psychological
Speaker 1: warfare on the enemy. But when those same systems, the
Speaker 1: projection system with reply back over the American troops, he
Speaker 1: just flip on rock and roll, you know, and they
Speaker 1: thought they were like playing rock and Roll to the
Speaker 1: to the be it calm, you know, which is not true,
Speaker 1: but you know that's what they were hearing when these
Speaker 1: coming back over friendly territories.
Speaker 8: How much influence do you think Michael Aquino Aquino had
Speaker 8: over Project.
Speaker 1: Monarch I don't know. I just know him as, yeah,
Speaker 1: my mentor's but a lot of the other things like that.
Speaker 1: But what is Project monarch in? That was that was a.
Speaker 8: Pretty brutal campaign of psychological warfare going on against Cambodia
Speaker 8: and Vietnam. We've used a lot of uh, psychologically damaging
Speaker 8: techniques that I think we're developed because of Michael Aquino's
Speaker 8: book Mind Wars.
Speaker 1: They built off of it. Yeah, well that's what I'm saying. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's something there. Yeah, if you'll But but
Speaker 1: using the word uh uh uh, you're kind of uh
Speaker 1: prejudicial or whatever. To use the word brutal in context
Speaker 1: of war. War is brutal. The point is to defeat
Speaker 1: the enemy as quickly and absolutely as possible.
Speaker 9: We've forgotten that lesson, especially in the Emerald Triangle with
Speaker 9: all those drugs floating around. You know, they made a
Speaker 9: lot of money off of those troops buying the drugs
Speaker 9: in that area. It was a big profit driven.
Speaker 1: Enterprise that probably had nothing to do with the psyops.
Speaker 6: It made it easier, if you'll permit me, just to
Speaker 6: kind of circle back between the relationship between the individual
Speaker 6: initiate and larger social organisms, at least on a naive
Speaker 6: level setting, an initiation is is sort of definitionally and
Speaker 6: profoundly individualistic. And I was wondering you've given us I
Speaker 6: think you're living a concrete example of this answer now,
Speaker 6: and certainly Michael Aquino did as well. But in terms,
Speaker 6: in more general terms, what do you think reintegration? I
Speaker 6: think is a word that you no. Reinclusion was the
Speaker 6: word you use. What what does that look like when
Speaker 6: the when the initiative is tasked to sort of return
Speaker 6: to the broader you know, the large a super you know,
Speaker 6: super individual organisms that he's a part, tribe, clan, you know, nation,
Speaker 6: Whatever that looks like for him, does that does that
Speaker 6: initiate have duties, responsibilities, et cetera to those broader organisms
Speaker 6: and sort of what is his place even as he
Speaker 6: is a god of his own making?
Speaker 1: Well, I think you know you learned that by example
Speaker 1: of you know, more than anything about in theory, always
Speaker 1: and forever. That's what the initiation before we talk about
Speaker 1: setting and initiation, initiation in general, that's reinclusion idea goes
Speaker 1: back in a scholarly sense Vun Gennip's book The Rights
Speaker 1: of Passage, Rights of Transformation. You know, that's where that
Speaker 1: model you know, is laid out of separation, transformation and reinclusion.
Speaker 1: And that is true of every kind of initiatory right
Speaker 1: of passage practiced by everyone you know, from anywhere universally.
Speaker 1: And so the that's it's true and proper and beneficial
Speaker 1: to everyone because you say that, okay, setting an initiation
Speaker 1: for examples that emphasizes this separation or individuation, individuality and
Speaker 1: so forth. But you know, the reinclusion part is important
Speaker 1: for the individual because you want to create a society,
Speaker 1: a context all that is beneficial to that individual that individual.
Speaker 1: No individual can exist and live in isolation on a
Speaker 1: day to day, every day basis. So uh, you want
Speaker 1: to improve the environment, uh, in order for for for
Speaker 1: selfish reasons, and just to make things better and more
Speaker 1: pleasant for yourself and for everyone around you. So uh
Speaker 1: though those uh it would be a short sighted and
Speaker 1: unwise thing to this time. I'm just interested in myself
Speaker 1: and everybody else be damned, you know, I'm interested in
Speaker 1: myself and I want to help others. Also, there's a
Speaker 1: as Michael Aquino being sort of an archetype of this.
Speaker 1: To me, as a single living example of it, there
Speaker 1: was I never met, or interacted with, or lived around
Speaker 1: a man who was more saintly than he was, you know,
Speaker 1: more more kind, more uh just h helpful and and
Speaker 1: and in every way. I cannot think of any example
Speaker 1: of any moment or anything he ever did, said, or
Speaker 1: anything that was not calculated, apparently on his part, to
Speaker 1: be a creative of a maximally beneficial environment for an individual.
Speaker 1: Two become and for the world in which that individual
Speaker 1: circulated being mainly the environment of the temple set let's say, uh,
Speaker 1: to be beneficial to everyone involved. I would and I
Speaker 1: noticed this is the an maybe you know, write a
Speaker 1: book about him, uh, with the cooperation of Lady Lilith. Uh.
Speaker 1: And it's going to be difficult, but uh he uh,
Speaker 1: it's little anecdotes like this. He would be in uh,
Speaker 1: you know, conclave. Not all settings, as I know, comes
Speaker 1: as no shock anyone, you know, don't all get along.
Speaker 1: You know, there's rivalries, there's animosities, there's all sorts of things.
Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that he doesn't This
Speaker 1: was his herd, them cats. Uh. And we would be
Speaker 1: in the Magic Castle. It's a place where magicians, you know,
Speaker 1: the stage magician in la you know it.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 1: And we would have our banquet or some kind of
Speaker 1: a dinner there for just a few initiatives, you know,
Speaker 1: just like ten or twelve Forrest j Ackerman would be there,
Speaker 1: and all kinds of cool people. But uh there there
Speaker 1: sometimes there'll be these people that were like not getting along.
Speaker 1: Myself might be included among those with some other guy
Speaker 1: over there, you know, and Michael a queena. I know,
Speaker 1: he's sitting right next to me. Usually I said it
Speaker 1: his left hand, and he would you would hear him.
Speaker 1: People say, what does he do? He's like humming some
Speaker 1: kind of low tone sort of sound that was emanating
Speaker 1: from him when Jesus is coming or something. And I
Speaker 1: was watching. What he was doing was he was bringing
Speaker 1: these desperate elements in his presence around the table into
Speaker 1: a harmonious interaction, you know. He was bringing them into
Speaker 1: a harmonious communicative like they say communal, you know, and
Speaker 1: that was a working you see. I'm not saying he
Speaker 1: said that, but he would do that kind of thing,
Speaker 1: you know, the kind of thing of you know, okay,
Speaker 1: you are in the ritual chamber and the bells are
Speaker 1: ringing and the da da da da dada. That's that's
Speaker 1: that's junior league. You know. He, for example, in this
Speaker 1: very same magic castle, he brought me. He goes, come on, flowers,
Speaker 1: we're going here. And so he took me in the building.
Speaker 1: He took me down to the basement of the building
Speaker 1: and there he reached into his back, you know, his
Speaker 1: satchel and his thing he's bringing along and he brings
Speaker 1: out this ss Dagger, the one he can famously see
Speaker 1: him in the occult experience, you know, talking in the castle, right,
Speaker 1: the right guess, And that's what we're getting at here.
Speaker 1: That he took me down there and he says, okay,
Speaker 1: and he presented it to me, gave it to me,
Speaker 1: and he knows that the Germanic tradition, or he doesn't
Speaker 1: know and necessarily doesn't know. This is the miraculous thing
Speaker 1: about this man is that he could elicit without doing research,
Speaker 1: could elist in all kinds of authentic magical practices and
Speaker 1: workings just intuitively. Bars he would call it pnoetically, that is,
Speaker 1: rationally into it, like platonic thinking. And uh would say,
Speaker 1: here here they presented to me based on my work,
Speaker 1: and so forth and kind of thing. And by where
Speaker 1: did he? Where did we do this? In the basement
Speaker 1: of magic Castle. We couldn't get to the babeles work
Speaker 1: in la that so he but he did it, say
Speaker 1: right there and then there did And then this idea
Speaker 1: of you accept a blade from your lord, you know,
Speaker 1: it's the kind of this nightly And of course the
Speaker 1: Order of the Trapezoid is a ship alric organization see
Speaker 1: knighthood and such.
Speaker 8: Well, the presenting of the the blades goes back to
Speaker 8: the clanging of the swords for type gods. So you've
Speaker 8: got Anu and you've got Unos, and like the sky
Speaker 8: itself is represented by the clanging of these blades.
Speaker 1: So it goes way back when it comes to that
Speaker 1: kind of meme. Yeah, well, of course that's your service
Speaker 1: symbolically here. But you know in the Knights, that's like
Speaker 1: this mentioned earlier, this my master's thesis, I wrote about
Speaker 1: Siegfried zig Uh, you know, and there you see the
Speaker 1: famous example where Olin comes and puts a sword in
Speaker 1: this tree right in the barnstalker's call and sticks that
Speaker 1: sword in a tree, and only Zeroth can pull it
Speaker 1: out because he's like chosen. Like this our Thurian thing.
Speaker 1: But it's a reflection of this courtly ritual in the North,
Speaker 1: which is an idea that they say that you're the
Speaker 1: guy's sword giver and the sword taker, and if you're
Speaker 1: a sword taker, then you're obligated to the sword giver
Speaker 1: to put that blade in the service of the lord. See,
Speaker 1: that's your tool. It's like I got a automobile repair
Speaker 1: shop and I'm going to give you a set of tools.
Speaker 1: But that's because I want want you to do my work.
Speaker 1: You know, it's working them in my shop. You know.
Speaker 1: That's uh, maybe retinue the lord in his retinue. And
Speaker 1: that's how the Germans call it. A men are bunk,
Speaker 1: that's uh. You know this the men's societies, the warrior
Speaker 1: societies that you know, carried on the uh and that's
Speaker 1: what it was like a h you know, very ancient
Speaker 1: cultural things. But yeah, but that's just an example. You're
Speaker 1: talking about the politics and of this. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: how a master such as Michael Quino was and uh
Speaker 1: and his point, as I have tried to do. It's
Speaker 1: my point of being a master is to create other masters.
Speaker 1: That's what you want. And that's true in like just
Speaker 1: to take a guild like a shoemaker's guild, that's a
Speaker 1: school and your point is to make good shoes. And
Speaker 1: so masters are the teachers, and they teach people how
Speaker 1: to make shoes, and then they become masters and then
Speaker 1: they pass on that. Now that's part of the whole system.
Speaker 1: And that we're talking about culture quite a bit here.
Speaker 1: That's an idea of building a culture and perpetuating a culture.
Speaker 1: The techniques are the same whether it's a that's what
Speaker 1: a university is. It's a guild of just like a
Speaker 1: shoemaker's guild, but we have intellectual product.
Speaker 8: An excellent book on that theory is the Book of
Speaker 8: Five Rings by Mayamoto Musashi, which perfectly lays out what
Speaker 8: you're talking about. A master is one who can train
Speaker 8: one hundred other masters.
Speaker 1: Right, that's the idea behind.
Speaker 8: Mastery and how to expand that out into the wider world.
Speaker 8: So you definitely have the techniques from east to west
Speaker 8: sort of blending in that matrix that you're.
Speaker 1: Talking about, right, But I think it's important and to
Speaker 1: experience it from both ends without experiencing it from one
Speaker 1: in first, you know, being taught and then teaching and
Speaker 1: doing so effectively. And again I bring up that thing
Speaker 1: about the Room Guild, which is my school or my
Speaker 1: initiatory school that I created. You know that I see
Speaker 1: that we have now seven PhDs there, and that's not
Speaker 1: saying that That's why I've recognized many masters in the
Speaker 1: Room Guild who are not PhDs or poets and songwriters
Speaker 1: and all kinds of other things, because there's other ways
Speaker 1: to demonstrate mastery. Mastery is one thing, but the way
Speaker 1: in which it's expressed as many and you want. Being
Speaker 1: a good teacher is one being able to recognize the
Speaker 1: expression of others which are not necessarily one's own. But
Speaker 1: the degree of mastery is nevertheless equivalent. And but the
Speaker 1: fact that so many occult in the cultusoid and incompunte world,
Speaker 1: you find that the masters, so called masters, are people
Speaker 1: who are hell bent on keeping everybody else down so
Speaker 1: that they can remain the smartest guy in the room.
Speaker 1: You know. And when somebody said to me recently or
Speaker 1: I heard you somewhere recently, this is it. Hey, if
Speaker 1: you're the smartest guy in the room, you're keeping their
Speaker 1: own company.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, due to time, people do have to leave these
Speaker 3: hours ago. Yes, you are about an hour over. That's
Speaker 3: what I expected. I'm sorry to cut you off. It's
Speaker 3: just that people are going to have to start dropping
Speaker 3: off regardless.
Speaker 1: So once I get started, it's hard to shut with.
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, since there's a lot of well, I guess,
Speaker 3: uh yeah, real quick. I mean, you can check out
Speaker 3: Jim the Ninja, Ricardo Hella is Giant Soil Exile. I
Speaker 3: does anything you want me to add to the links
Speaker 3: in the bottom. I'll edit after the show. But I
Speaker 3: got everybody's links down there if you want to check
Speaker 3: out this stuff. Uh, Stephen, is there any place that
Speaker 3: you want to let people to remind people to check
Speaker 3: out real quick?
Speaker 1: Well? Just uh, I said, go seek the Mysteries dot
Speaker 1: com so you can see all my books and uh
Speaker 1: and search keep an eye. Uh the wood Harrow School
Speaker 1: coming up. What's going to happen there is that I
Speaker 1: can only take so many students for these courses, that is,
Speaker 1: for for the actual certification in the the in what
Speaker 1: I'm teaching. Certain but these the courses can be audited,
Speaker 1: you know, listen to by anyone. I mean, do not
Speaker 1: necessarily be part of the school too. That's in the truth.
Speaker 1: You know, university traditionally and a good university, you know
Speaker 1: that let anybody who's just cool, you know, come in
Speaker 1: and then hang out. And that's what I want to
Speaker 1: have also, you know. And but a certain number of students,
Speaker 1: approximately twenty, I will actually take under my wing then
Speaker 1: will actually you know, teach them in the ways beyond
Speaker 1: just what's in the lectures and so forth requirements and
Speaker 1: just like a university. So what Harold School is on
Speaker 1: the horizon?
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, thank you very much, Steven. I appreciate you
Speaker 3: coming on. That was I know why I even told
Speaker 3: you about an hour and a half and one about
Speaker 3: two and a half hours, so I appreciate you accommodating that. Again,
Speaker 3: everybody thank you very much for coming on. Some you
Speaker 3: were here for the whole time, so I mean that
Speaker 3: was a long one. I appreciate that. And everybody in
Speaker 3: the chat thank you. I appreciate it, everybody chiming in
Speaker 3: and saying stuff. That's what's up. That's why we go
Speaker 3: live and until the next one. Everybody be well A
Speaker 3: little later