WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Out of the street corners. They scream. You knew it

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<v Speaker 1>was coming. You've been waiting for this for months, rumor

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<v Speaker 1>hardened into fear, and now they scream at you, the sirens,

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<v Speaker 1>their hysterical wail, tearing through the white noise of the city,

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<v Speaker 1>and you run. You run to pick up those things

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<v Speaker 1>that can never be replaced, a picture of them in

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<v Speaker 1>the days when they still loved you, your mother's wedding ring.

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<v Speaker 1>And then you turn to your shelf of games. You

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<v Speaker 1>only have room for five. Five Games for Doomsday. Five

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<v Speaker 1>Games for Doomsday is a show in which board game

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<v Speaker 1>personalities are thrust into a cabin in the woods to

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<v Speaker 1>outrun an oncoming disaster, but can only take five of

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<v Speaker 1>their games with them. But which will they choose? My

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<v Speaker 1>guest this week is a legend in the gaming industry.

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<v Speaker 1>A former systems analyst for Boeing, he formed a company

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<v Speaker 1>named after his role playing guild that would become and

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<v Speaker 1>still remains, one of the most significant names in hobby gaming.

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<v Speaker 1>This company was Wizards of the Coast, who would publish

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<v Speaker 1>Magic the Gathering and acquire tactical Studies, rules, and publish

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<v Speaker 1>Dungeons and Dragons. After leaving WATSA. After the acquisition by Hasbro,

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<v Speaker 1>he would go on to buy gen Con. My guest

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<v Speaker 1>this week is Peter Adkisson. Peter, Welcome to the cabin.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Thank you for having me. What a pleasure

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<v Speaker 2>to be here.

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<v Speaker 1>So my first question is how difficult was it for

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<v Speaker 1>you to pick the five games to take to the cabin.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I was. It wasn't too hard. I had to

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<v Speaker 2>think about, like, you know, I asked like, who's going

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<v Speaker 2>to be there? I asked you, who's going to be

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<v Speaker 2>in the cabin? You know? Is that my wifer is

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<v Speaker 2>at my war gaming buddy, you know, and he's like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>whoever you want or something like that.

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<v Speaker 1>The premise is very thin, Peter, I could tell you

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<v Speaker 1>that much.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, So I figured I had to take some

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<v Speaker 2>Diversity and replayability were the two things that I was

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<v Speaker 2>concerned with. Diversity in terms of having different types of

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<v Speaker 2>games for different types of people that I might find

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<v Speaker 2>in the cabin. And I don't know how long I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to be there with only five games, So I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted games that I feel I could play many times

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<v Speaker 2>and really be happy with them.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's go back to the beginning then, So when

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<v Speaker 1>did you first realize that you were a gamer?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, good question. I you know, my family played games.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean not the types of games that we think

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<v Speaker 2>it was gameing, you like hobby games. But as you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I grew up in in sort of the environment like, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>gaming is something you do, and it was things like

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<v Speaker 2>peanutle and hearts and you know, you know, aggravation and

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<v Speaker 2>monopoly and games like that. And then so I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>really identify and didn't even wasn't aware sort of the

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<v Speaker 2>wonderful world of war games and eventually euro games and

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<v Speaker 2>all this sort of stuff like that that came as

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<v Speaker 2>as I was a teenager, and immediately, like as soon

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<v Speaker 2>as I was exposed to that world, like okay, this

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<v Speaker 2>is where I need to really, you know, this is me,

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<v Speaker 2>this is home, this is my dribe.

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<v Speaker 1>And when you get an email from you, your your

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<v Speaker 1>signature says peace love and wargames Are war games your

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<v Speaker 1>first love?

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<v Speaker 2>Do you think I think in terms of hobby games? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>My the gateway drug was risk and from there I

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<v Speaker 2>discovered Avalon Hill Games. This would be in the nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>early nineteen seventies, and that you know, that was a

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<v Speaker 2>hobby game industry at the time that miniatures, which were

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<v Speaker 2>even harder to find, you know, like war were miniatures.

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<v Speaker 2>So and then I kind of went on a forty

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<v Speaker 2>year side quest into rgs and magic the gathering and

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<v Speaker 2>board games were always there, you know, I just was

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<v Speaker 2>never something I was fanatical about. I always liked board games,

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<v Speaker 2>but and so recently, it was about a year ago

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<v Speaker 2>I decided to go back. You know, it's like, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>war games, I really want to go back into war games.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I did. And the piece love war games.

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<v Speaker 2>I just kind of liked the sort of the inherent

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<v Speaker 2>conflict and the idea of peace of love and war

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<v Speaker 2>games because I think that, you know, if you're a

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<v Speaker 2>war gamer and you're honest about it and you're you're

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<v Speaker 2>a good guy, there's always a little part of You're like,

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<v Speaker 2>why am I spending all this time thinking about people

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<v Speaker 2>killing each other? You know? And I don't really have

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<v Speaker 2>a good answer for that. I'm okay with it. I

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<v Speaker 2>know that it's just all fake, it's all pretend, and

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<v Speaker 2>that I'm a good guy. But yeah, I like war games.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you explain it to me? I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>So you went on then to study computer science? Why that?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I started off in history, to be honest, and

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<v Speaker 2>I knew two people who have PhDs in history. One

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<v Speaker 2>of them was working at a hospital and the other

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<v Speaker 2>one was a janitor. You know, I love history, but

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I want to be able to have a

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<v Speaker 2>good income, you know, to support my family and do things.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I want enough money to support my family

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<v Speaker 2>and have something left over to go and do fun

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<v Speaker 2>things on top of that. So I thought, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>how about computers. Yeah, let's let's try that. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I was never I was never passionate about computers. I

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<v Speaker 2>was okay at it. I mean, you know, I studied it,

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<v Speaker 2>did did fine with it. But I just did it

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<v Speaker 2>because I wanted to have a marketable skill.

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<v Speaker 1>And so you you went on to have a job

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<v Speaker 1>but one of America's most famous companies, Boeing. What was

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<v Speaker 1>it that you did that?

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<v Speaker 2>I you know, I love my time at Boeing. It

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<v Speaker 2>was fantastic. I worked Boeing has you know, people think

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<v Speaker 2>Boeing to think of airplanes, but Boeing is also very

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<v Speaker 2>active in like rockets and aerospace and satellites and stuff

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<v Speaker 2>like this. And I worked in that. I worked in

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<v Speaker 2>that part of Boeing and It was a I was

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<v Speaker 2>in a study group would study do studies for NASA

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<v Speaker 2>and for the Air Force relating to space transportation, which

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<v Speaker 2>is just a kind of fancy word for how do

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<v Speaker 2>you get stuff up into space? You know, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>that's what it's really about. And with my computer degree,

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<v Speaker 2>I was there as a programmer and they called me

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<v Speaker 2>a system's analyst, which I didn't mind because it was

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<v Speaker 2>actually a better title in terms of conversations and stuff. So,

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<v Speaker 2>but I was basically writing code, and I specifically this

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<v Speaker 2>was pretty cool. I look back and like, wow, that

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<v Speaker 2>was a cool job. I was writing code to to

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<v Speaker 2>simulate the ground operations, you know, the ground of a

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<v Speaker 2>launch vehicle, like like the place where you build a

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<v Speaker 2>launch vehicle, like a vertical integration building or a mobile

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<v Speaker 2>launcher platform, the launch pad, refurbishment centers and stuff like this.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I would get input of what a projected

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<v Speaker 2>scenario for delivering payloads into orbit, and I would model

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<v Speaker 2>what sort of ground operations facilities and how long it

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<v Speaker 2>would take up to build them and operate them to

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<v Speaker 2>support that scenario. And it was kick ass.

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<v Speaker 1>And during it was during that time that you formed

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<v Speaker 1>Wizards of the Coach what is the story behind that?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so we know, you know, I had an RPG.

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<v Speaker 2>I was deep, deep into dungeons and dragons back in

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<v Speaker 2>those days. And we had actually, me and some of

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<v Speaker 2>my buddies had actually thought about starting a game company,

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<v Speaker 2>and way back in college, you know, so like several

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<v Speaker 2>years earlier, like at least five or six years earlier,

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<v Speaker 2>and when the idea sprang from, we were opening up

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<v Speaker 2>a judge's guilt supplement called the Invincible the City State

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<v Speaker 2>Invincible Overlord or something like that, and we were looking

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<v Speaker 2>through it, and my buddy Terry's like, you know, we

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<v Speaker 2>could do this, you know, we could create something like this.

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<v Speaker 2>And we were all like, yeah, that's a a great idea.

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<v Speaker 2>And then I'm like, maybe we should finish college first,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, just for the hell of it, right, And

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<v Speaker 2>so but I never let go of that idea, and

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<v Speaker 2>we finished college. We kind of went our separate ways,

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<v Speaker 2>and I ended up in Seattle working at Boeing, and

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<v Speaker 2>that seed had been planted, you know, and one day

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<v Speaker 2>I just told my asked my buddy Ken who was

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<v Speaker 2>there at that first meeting, and say, hey, why don't

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<v Speaker 2>we do this. Let's let's let's start this company and

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<v Speaker 2>do it on the side, you know, And so we

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<v Speaker 2>did that. Wasn't that conversation happened in nineteen ninety and

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<v Speaker 2>we uh and we got our buddy friends together and

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<v Speaker 2>we just sort of re it was to do role

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<v Speaker 2>playing games. It wasn't to do magic theatering. I hadn't

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<v Speaker 2>met I had not met Richard Garfield yet, and we

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<v Speaker 2>sort of reversed engineered the process of holding up a

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<v Speaker 2>role playing book, like, how did they make this? What

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<v Speaker 2>did they do? Oh, somebody had to type it up,

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<v Speaker 2>somebody to do art, stuff like that. So we didn't

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<v Speaker 2>even think about what it was like to sell it.

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<v Speaker 2>We're just like, uh, yeah, And so we just started

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<v Speaker 2>doing it. And I mean it sounds like we did

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<v Speaker 2>it on a lark, but I took it very seriously.

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<v Speaker 2>From as soon as they decided to do it, I

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<v Speaker 2>started taking it very seriously. I continued working at Boeing

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<v Speaker 2>for the next three years. But yeah, I did this

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<v Speaker 2>on the side, and of course I met Richard and

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<v Speaker 2>we would magic and all that sort of stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>So your first game then is intimidating, and it's a

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<v Speaker 1>game that I've often thought of maybe trying to play.

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<v Speaker 1>And then I think about it for another second and

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<v Speaker 1>I just say, I'm not sure I have the intellectual

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<v Speaker 1>capacity for it. And this is Advanced Squad Leader, So

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<v Speaker 1>why are you taking ASL to the cabin.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, you gotta there's a war game inside

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<v Speaker 2>of me, right, So it's like I I one more game.

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<v Speaker 2>Had had to be on the list, absolutely at least one,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, I just wanted something with a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of playability. I mean ASLs best squad leader or squad leader,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know either one does don't really matter. Has

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's tactical combat World War two, and there's

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<v Speaker 2>just an endless supply of scenarios that you can play

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<v Speaker 2>with that, and it's it's it's gone deep into all

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<v Speaker 2>the different types of all the theaters of operation, all

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<v Speaker 2>the different types of things amphibious landings or you know,

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<v Speaker 2>gorilla action or you know the street fighting in Stalingrad

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<v Speaker 2>or or or what have you, any anything, So it's

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<v Speaker 2>just it's just the variety. And then there's something very

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<v Speaker 2>tactically engaging about like, Okay, I've got a military force.

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<v Speaker 2>What's in the force, what's the train? Like, what are

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<v Speaker 2>the objectives? And then what's the force? The other side

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<v Speaker 2>has and you know, setting it up, you know, push

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<v Speaker 2>start pushing counters around. It just never gets tiring, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>It's it's not like playing, oh, let's play the Battle

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<v Speaker 2>of the Bulge. It's just the Battle of the Bulge

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<v Speaker 2>every time, you know, instead of this time. It's it's

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<v Speaker 2>just the wide variety of the stuff you can do

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<v Speaker 2>with that game.

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<v Speaker 1>And So how significant would you say as L's in

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<v Speaker 1>the world of wall games.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's quite It is certainly very significant. I

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<v Speaker 2>mean it is Is it the most significant game? I

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<v Speaker 2>don't even know how can major those things, but you

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<v Speaker 2>know it first of all, it has a long pedigree.

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<v Speaker 2>It goes clear back to I don't know, nineteen clearly

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<v Speaker 2>in the nineteen seventies is when it came out, and

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<v Speaker 2>and it is and it's never died. I mean, like

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<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of games that came out in the

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<v Speaker 2>sixties and seventies and you play them and they're like,

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<v Speaker 2>that's a little long in the tooth, you know, But

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<v Speaker 2>you could play Original Squad Leader scenario one, set it up,

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<v Speaker 2>and it holds its own here, you know, fifty years later.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's just very very well designed. It came

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<v Speaker 2>right out of a miniature you know, it started its

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<v Speaker 2>roots are a miniatures gaming. It was a World War

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<v Speaker 2>two tactical combat thing. So yeah, what other game has

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<v Speaker 2>that pedigree in the work aiming? Uh? Nothing, nothing does

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<v Speaker 2>and so uh and and I know, and certainly the

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<v Speaker 2>genre has been tackled by many different designers, and there's

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<v Speaker 2>other good ones. I also love Combat Commander is an

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<v Speaker 2>excellent game that actually designed in this century, and same

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<v Speaker 2>genre World War two, same scale, tactical combat. And and

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<v Speaker 2>they're both they're both fantastic, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>And so then there are people listening to this who

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<v Speaker 1>will have played ASL, but there will be many people

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<v Speaker 1>like me who are curious about ASL but are intimidated

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<v Speaker 1>by it. Should we be? Yeah, I mean, thank you

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<v Speaker 1>for the eldestizza.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that's the fun too. I mean that's I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I got it, Okay, I will confess I the complexity

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<v Speaker 2>of these games is a feature, not a bug for me.

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<v Speaker 2>I love like, Okay, this game is going to be

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<v Speaker 2>really complicated, and I'm gonna have to spend some time

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<v Speaker 2>to understand it and play it. And I think that's

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<v Speaker 2>that's cool. If it holds up, If the complexity is

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<v Speaker 2>rewarding in that you feel like that it gives you

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<v Speaker 2>a richness that it's not just for complexity's sake, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And that's what I think ASL fits that criteria. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>there are other games, I a World of War, the

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<v Speaker 2>OCS system, I'll just not quite that complex. But I

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<v Speaker 2>mean I think the complexity is yeah, but there are

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<v Speaker 2>gateways into it. There are starter ASL, there are starter kits.

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<v Speaker 2>I also, you know, to be honest, I said ASL,

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<v Speaker 2>I actually primarily play the original squad leader across environment.

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<v Speaker 2>But I figured, hey, if it's doomsday and I might

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<v Speaker 2>be there for you know, it might be stuck in

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<v Speaker 2>the cabin for a early long time, maybe it's time

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<v Speaker 2>to take the plunge and really transition into ASL.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to I want to go now more into

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<v Speaker 1>Wizards of the Coast. So Richard Garfield, who some of

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<v Speaker 1>the listeners might have heard of in this listening to

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<v Speaker 1>this podcast, he approached you with a game that he

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<v Speaker 1>is that he's a classic robo rally, and you told

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<v Speaker 1>him it was too expensive to produce and could he

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<v Speaker 1>come up with something cheaper.

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<v Speaker 2>What was the result of that, Yeah, Well, you know

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<v Speaker 2>we had I started Wizards of the Coast to do

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<v Speaker 2>RPG stuff, and not even an RPG design, but like

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<v Speaker 2>just you know, you know, like a system independent sort

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<v Speaker 2>of supplements, you know, like campaigns and stuff and uh.

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<v Speaker 2>And the thing about that stuff is it's just a book.

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<v Speaker 2>And so we spent quite a bit of time just

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<v Speaker 2>trying to figure how to make a book. And so

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<v Speaker 2>Richard comes over this, you know, some missus game for

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<v Speaker 2>us to published robt rally and this is a board

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<v Speaker 2>game that you know would be in terms of components

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<v Speaker 2>are not outstanding by today's major but for me as

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<v Speaker 2>an RPT publisher, and eighteen ninety one, that would have

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<v Speaker 2>been I'm saying, oh my god, I gotta I gotta

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<v Speaker 2>make a map a board, and I got to make

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<v Speaker 2>a box, and I got to make miniature robots or

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<v Speaker 2>something like that and different and and a book on

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<v Speaker 2>top of all that. Right, So, and you know, board

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<v Speaker 2>games had a respectable position to market those days, but

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<v Speaker 2>nothing like they are now in terms of a magnitude

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<v Speaker 2>of And so I just like, I I like this game,

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<v Speaker 2>and if I was a board game publisher, I would

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<v Speaker 2>definitely want to publish this game because it's cool. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think it's going to set the world on fire,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Like I don't think if I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>get into board games, I don't know that this is

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<v Speaker 2>a game that's that I you know, I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>that I'm ready for that challenge. And I said, I

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<v Speaker 2>just want something easier, you know, and he's like, you

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<v Speaker 2>know is Richard's response was like, well, what would you like?

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<v Speaker 2>I will design anything you want, which I love that response,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. And I and so I said, well, how

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<v Speaker 2>about a card game? I mean, just just just cards,

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<v Speaker 2>no other components, no, no, no, no, just cards, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>some of you put in your pocket. And because I thought,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, printing that's printing on paper basically just like

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<v Speaker 2>a book, but just smaller pieces of paper, right, and

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<v Speaker 2>laminated and stuff like that, and and so, but I

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<v Speaker 2>really want to make it clear to anybody that's listening

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<v Speaker 2>and might be hearing his story for the first time,

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<v Speaker 2>I am not taking any credit for the real innovation

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<v Speaker 2>of the game, which was way beyond just a typical

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<v Speaker 2>card game. I mean, I was just thinking of something

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<v Speaker 2>like you know, Heart's Poker or whatever, but the different heart.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I don't want to steal any credit from Richard.

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<v Speaker 2>It was his entirely his brainchild to what magic gathering is.

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<v Speaker 1>And so you know magic the gathering happens. We know

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<v Speaker 1>Richard Garfield as Richard Garfield. You could never go back

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<v Speaker 1>in time. So all of us listening to this know

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<v Speaker 1>Richard Garfield as the inventor of magic. Richard Garfield, the

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<v Speaker 1>great think of the great innovator. And the listeners can

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<v Speaker 1>can have a drink.

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<v Speaker 2>Now.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm writing a book at the moment, and it's astonishing.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm writing a book on the twenty first century in games.

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<v Speaker 1>It's astonishing how many people in this century were inspired

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<v Speaker 1>by magic. But what was Richard like at the time,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, before he'd really had anything published, as he

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<v Speaker 1>was pitching magic to you right, well.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, he was still a student at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>He was in his last year, I think are very

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<v Speaker 2>close to his last year, and he wasn't aspiring to

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<v Speaker 2>be a game designer at all, and not professionally, right,

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<v Speaker 2>He was aspiring to be a mathematics professor, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>And he was a math student and he was very smart,

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<v Speaker 2>very slupbull. But Richard is also very playful and a

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<v Speaker 2>bit mischievous, you know, like somebody who will play a

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<v Speaker 2>prank on someone, but careful not to like try to

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<v Speaker 2>really embarrass or get them in trouble or hurt them

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<v Speaker 2>or in any sort of way, you know. Just and

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<v Speaker 2>so he has a clever playfulness to him and a

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<v Speaker 2>silliness you know about him too, like wearing mismatched colored socks,

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<v Speaker 2>which he's famous for, you know. And and he used

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<v Speaker 2>to carry He'll be he'd be in a board moon meeting.

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<v Speaker 2>It was much later, but he would have done this

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<v Speaker 2>then too. This is you know, taking a spoon, you

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<v Speaker 2>know how you take a spoon and kind of balance

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<v Speaker 2>it from your nose, you know, like that. And he

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<v Speaker 2>would he carry around a little horn, like a little

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<v Speaker 2>bicycle horn every once in a while. So he'd say

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<v Speaker 2>something and it'd be kuind of a quiet and he goes,

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00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:38.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, off the horn. You know. That's that's who

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<v Speaker 2>Richard was. He was very modest because you know, he

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<v Speaker 2>was uh, it was just nice, you know, not always

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<v Speaker 2>super talkative. Sometimes I have run into people who thought

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<v Speaker 2>that Richard was aloof for arrogant, and boy, that is

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<v Speaker 2>that is not fair at all. He but he sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>is just kind of quiet and like doesn't feel like,

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<v Speaker 2>oh there's some silence in a room, I need to

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<v Speaker 2>fill it by talking.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, shyness can often come across as a loof right.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, yeah, But I wouldn't even say it's shy. I

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<v Speaker 2>think he's he can be quiet. He can be like, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a conversation here, and I don't feel like I have,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, something interesting enough to say it, So let's

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<v Speaker 2>let somebody else talk, you know, and then like he

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<v Speaker 2>you know again, going later on in board meetings, So

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<v Speaker 2>he was the largest shareholder was the Coast because they

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<v Speaker 2>brought us magic, of course, and he would he was

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<v Speaker 2>always on the board of directors, and oftentimes he would

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<v Speaker 2>go an entire meeting without hardly ever saying anything, and

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<v Speaker 2>then when he would say something, it would be profound,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like even the business guys sitting at the

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<v Speaker 2>table were like, eh, interesting. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I often take the opposite tack, which is throw as

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<v Speaker 1>much against the wall as possible and hope that something sticks.

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<v Speaker 1>And it really does so obviously, so obviously, you know

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<v Speaker 1>it's been told a thousand times. He brings you magic,

368
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<v Speaker 1>magic becomes magic. People are paying ludicrous amounts of money

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<v Speaker 1>for black loads and all of that sort of stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>But how did this change your life? Was it at

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<v Speaker 1>this point that you stopped being a systems analyst of

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<v Speaker 1>Boeing and became what's the CEO full time?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I when Magic came out in nineteen ninety three,

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<v Speaker 2>it it kind of trickled into the market with a

375
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<v Speaker 2>little things, and then the alaunch was at gen Con.

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<v Speaker 2>That was our official launch Magic, and it went really

377
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<v Speaker 2>really well, and we had we sold. We had no

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<v Speaker 2>idea how much to take we sold, and we didn't

379
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<v Speaker 2>actually sell everything we had at the at the booth,

380
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:57.839
<v Speaker 2>and so we had some much or but distributors who

381
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<v Speaker 2>were there heard about it and saw the excite of

382
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:01.759
<v Speaker 2>it and all came and they all came and bought

383
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<v Speaker 2>everything we had left. So by the end of the show,

384
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<v Speaker 2>we had sold out everything we'd taken to the show.

385
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<v Speaker 2>And I'm sorry, I have no idea how much that was.

386
00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:15.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't so but then I you know, I flew

387
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<v Speaker 2>home to Seattle and the next day I went in

388
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<v Speaker 2>and told my boss up Boweing, that's it. I'm out

389
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<v Speaker 2>of here, you know. So it was three years that

390
00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:28.920
<v Speaker 2>I was doing my day job at Boeing and moonlighting

391
00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:32.359
<v Speaker 2>as the CEO was the the Coast, and so when

392
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<v Speaker 2>I told my boss I was quitting, he was really

393
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<v Speaker 2>excited because he had invested.

394
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<v Speaker 1>I see.

395
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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So then then it was yeah, changing, I mean,

396
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<v Speaker 2>it was so thankful, thankful for the you know, the

397
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<v Speaker 2>prosperity of being able to publish a great game and

398
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<v Speaker 2>have it, you know, have the company take off and

399
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<v Speaker 2>be super successful. And of course that I was able

400
00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:57.880
<v Speaker 2>to get an income better than I was making and

401
00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:01.400
<v Speaker 2>boeing in the income that I could up of working

402
00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:04.359
<v Speaker 2>going and also that the company was making up money

403
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:06.839
<v Speaker 2>that I wasn't having to pay a lot of company's bills,

404
00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:09.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, And so that was there was just so

405
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:14.920
<v Speaker 2>wonderful to focus on this one thing, you know, and

406
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<v Speaker 2>not really worry. I mean, you're always worried about money

407
00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:19.039
<v Speaker 2>when you're running a business, but there's a difference between

408
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:21.440
<v Speaker 2>worried about you know, or do you have enough to

409
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:24.720
<v Speaker 2>eat and pay rent? Versus like, wow, am I really

410
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<v Speaker 2>maximizing when you turn on an investment for the shareholders?

411
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<v Speaker 2>Those are different levels of worry. So it was nice

412
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<v Speaker 2>to just be able to sink into playing the game

413
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<v Speaker 2>of running Wizards of the Coast.

414
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<v Speaker 1>And so I think it's undeniable that Magic changed the

415
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<v Speaker 1>world to a greater or lesser degree. I mean, as

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00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:47.559
<v Speaker 1>I say so many designers. I was speaking to Mark Herman,

417
00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:50.079
<v Speaker 1>the war game designer, and he says he based the

418
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:53.359
<v Speaker 1>card driven system on Magic just one thing, for instance,

419
00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:56.799
<v Speaker 1>which which blew my mind because they seemed very different concept.

420
00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:59.039
<v Speaker 2>You know, I would love to meet Mark Hervis someday,

421
00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:00.519
<v Speaker 2>I think as well.

422
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:03.759
<v Speaker 1>I was with him at a convention this this spring,

423
00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:05.279
<v Speaker 1>and he's he's a very nice.

424
00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:06.559
<v Speaker 2>Guy, that's what I've heard.

425
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:12.079
<v Speaker 1>And and also you know it, it has gone on

426
00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:16.720
<v Speaker 1>to keep the brick and mortar store kind of a

427
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:22.200
<v Speaker 1>float over the last twenty years. Were you surprised that

428
00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:26.000
<v Speaker 1>Magic changed the world in the way it did, because

429
00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:28.839
<v Speaker 1>I guess you can never foresee that kind of success.

430
00:23:28.519 --> 00:23:32.519
<v Speaker 2>Right, Oh? Absolutely. We were just hoping for you know,

431
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:36.039
<v Speaker 2>we just we just like, okay, this is doing really well. Hey,

432
00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:38.680
<v Speaker 2>we can quit our day jobs and do this full time.

433
00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:41.359
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that was like our dream of house. That's

434
00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:44.039
<v Speaker 2>the goal, right, That's that's the goal, Like just get

435
00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:46.319
<v Speaker 2>to where we can be self employed in this in

436
00:23:46.359 --> 00:23:49.480
<v Speaker 2>this industry. The fact that it was so much more

437
00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:52.079
<v Speaker 2>than that, of course, we couldn't have anticipated that, and

438
00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:54.240
<v Speaker 2>we were always worried it was going to crash, you know,

439
00:23:54.279 --> 00:23:56.079
<v Speaker 2>We're always worried that it was just a bubble and

440
00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:58.240
<v Speaker 2>there was a bad and what's going to happen when

441
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:01.079
<v Speaker 2>people move on from I think started doing something else.

442
00:24:01.240 --> 00:24:04.680
<v Speaker 2>It's not that we lacked faith, and I mean we

443
00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:07.400
<v Speaker 2>we certainly knew Magic was a great game, and we

444
00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:10.400
<v Speaker 2>enjoyed Magic ourselves. But you just, you know, when you're

445
00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:14.240
<v Speaker 2>being pragmatic as an entrepreneur, you're always thinking about like

446
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:16.240
<v Speaker 2>when's the other shoe going to drop? You know, when

447
00:24:16.359 --> 00:24:20.480
<v Speaker 2>when's when things gonna uh turn differently? You know. And

448
00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:23.839
<v Speaker 2>and in the nineties, you know, the threat was, you know,

449
00:24:24.039 --> 00:24:27.200
<v Speaker 2>computer games, why these computer games are getting so good?

450
00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:29.359
<v Speaker 2>And then especially things like a request where you can

451
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:32.319
<v Speaker 2>play online with other people and the graphics, like how

452
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:35.279
<v Speaker 2>do board games going to card games whatever? How's it?

453
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:37.079
<v Speaker 2>How are we going to compete with that? Right? And

454
00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:41.119
<v Speaker 2>there was a genuine worry that, you know, within ten

455
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:44.799
<v Speaker 2>years nobody would be playing tabletop games at all, and

456
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:47.920
<v Speaker 2>thank god we couldn't be from the truth, you know.

457
00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:53.279
<v Speaker 1>And so how long was it that Richard was the

458
00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:57.079
<v Speaker 1>sole designer on Magic? When did you start recruiting new

459
00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:00.079
<v Speaker 1>people to come in and design com.

460
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:03.759
<v Speaker 2>Oh, actually that was baked in with Richard. Okay, so

461
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:07.960
<v Speaker 2>the the original Magic R and D he used a

462
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:11.240
<v Speaker 2>Boeing term, and you know, the game design and development

463
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:14.920
<v Speaker 2>staff at Wizards at least for Magic to gathering and

464
00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:17.079
<v Speaker 2>all of our training card games eventually and so on.

465
00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:20.880
<v Speaker 2>The heart and soul of those of that group were

466
00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:24.839
<v Speaker 2>all people that Richard went to school with. And because

467
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:29.160
<v Speaker 2>when Richard when he designed Magic and started playtesting Magic,

468
00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:31.519
<v Speaker 2>he was still a university student at the University of

469
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:37.599
<v Speaker 2>Pennsylvania working out his mathematics PhD. And so the people

470
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:40.079
<v Speaker 2>that he and he was he wasn't one of these

471
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:43.200
<v Speaker 2>designers don't understand the value of playtesting. He he lives,

472
00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:46.279
<v Speaker 2>He thrives the playtesting. He thrives with showing his game

473
00:25:46.359 --> 00:25:49.200
<v Speaker 2>to other people and getting feedback. And he's tough. He

474
00:25:49.240 --> 00:25:51.680
<v Speaker 2>can take the you know, whatever the critique is and

475
00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:55.039
<v Speaker 2>analyze it. And so who better than a whole bunch

476
00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:59.279
<v Speaker 2>of people who are at a in advanced degrees in

477
00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:03.000
<v Speaker 2>hard science as any university. And so it's like, you know,

478
00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:07.039
<v Speaker 2>physics students and chemistry students and mathematics students and attorney

479
00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:11.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, tax attorney even worse, you know, just all

480
00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:15.559
<v Speaker 2>these and so when he came over, Magic took off.

481
00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:18.519
<v Speaker 2>We just started hiring some of those people in with

482
00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:22.519
<v Speaker 2>us as developers. But then, you know, there's a fine line,

483
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:25.599
<v Speaker 2>and some people just want to be designers or just

484
00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:27.440
<v Speaker 2>want to be developers, but of course a lot of

485
00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:29.680
<v Speaker 2>people can do both, right, So a lot of these

486
00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:36.279
<v Speaker 2>developers were natural choices to design sets, and Magic lent

487
00:26:36.359 --> 00:26:39.839
<v Speaker 2>itself so well to that, because you know, there's one

488
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:42.319
<v Speaker 2>thing with magictery gathering comes out in its original form,

489
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:46.000
<v Speaker 2>but everything since then has been an expansion to Magic gathering,

490
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:49.880
<v Speaker 2>right and building on the original, and so it lent

491
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:55.000
<v Speaker 2>itself to being able to open the doors to other

492
00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:59.559
<v Speaker 2>people to put their creativity into the game. And so yeah,

493
00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:01.519
<v Speaker 2>that's that's how that all happened.

494
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:05.240
<v Speaker 1>Well, your next game is Magic, and one thing that

495
00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:10.400
<v Speaker 1>is the I think the usp to Magic. I work

496
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:14.400
<v Speaker 1>in a board game shop and I see people's sort

497
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.359
<v Speaker 1>of reaction when they open a bootstore, and this is rarity.

498
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:21.000
<v Speaker 1>Tell us about how you came up with rarity, why

499
00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:23.519
<v Speaker 1>you came up with rarity, and if you think that

500
00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:26.680
<v Speaker 1>that is an important factor in magic subtraction?

501
00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:31.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well that's you know, that's first all, it's all Richard.

502
00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:39.240
<v Speaker 2>You know, I didn't personally, and so the rarity, you know,

503
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:42.079
<v Speaker 2>it was people won't believe me, you know, I know

504
00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:43.720
<v Speaker 2>people don't believe me when I say this. There's some

505
00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:46.200
<v Speaker 2>people do, but not. But like, it was never about

506
00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:48.400
<v Speaker 2>trying to get people to buy more, you know, it

507
00:27:48.440 --> 00:27:52.599
<v Speaker 2>was it was just about how to make cards special

508
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:57.200
<v Speaker 2>and how to add variety to the game. Like there's

509
00:27:57.240 --> 00:27:59.839
<v Speaker 2>some common cards, Well, you need lots of land cards,

510
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:02.680
<v Speaker 2>just basic things, you know, like bears and wild growth

511
00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:05.119
<v Speaker 2>and you know whatever, you know, just sort of the

512
00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:08.279
<v Speaker 2>we recognize that there are many cards that are just

513
00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:12.119
<v Speaker 2>kind of the fundamental building blocks of having a magic deck,

514
00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:16.440
<v Speaker 2>and then there should be these cards that are weird special.

515
00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:20.759
<v Speaker 2>Richard actually saw you know, a lot of the rare cards.

516
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.680
<v Speaker 2>You you shouldn't want too many of those in your deck.

517
00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:26.119
<v Speaker 2>You know, they're too weird, right, I mean, sure, maybe

518
00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:28.319
<v Speaker 2>some of them, but you know, like a Chevan Dragon, Okay,

519
00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:30.640
<v Speaker 2>it's a great card, but it's expensive, you know. I mean,

520
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:32.839
<v Speaker 2>if you draw a couple of those in your opening hand,

521
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:36.920
<v Speaker 2>you're like, I wish I had, you know, goblins instead,

522
00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:43.480
<v Speaker 2>And so I think it was just I don't think

523
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:46.279
<v Speaker 2>it was anything more complicated than that, just sort of

524
00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:51.000
<v Speaker 2>recognizing that different cards should be more common or less

525
00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:53.440
<v Speaker 2>common in other cards, and that it would be fun

526
00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:57.559
<v Speaker 2>to be Like Richard, we never anticipated it would be

527
00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:01.880
<v Speaker 2>so big like and so Richard's vision for magic, the

528
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:03.759
<v Speaker 2>way he described it to me back in those days,

529
00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:06.640
<v Speaker 2>was that it is funny because we're there now. We

530
00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:08.480
<v Speaker 2>have been for a while, but in nineteen ninety three

531
00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:12.720
<v Speaker 2>is unfathomably He's imagine that magic there's so many cards.

532
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:14.799
<v Speaker 2>An ideal world, there would just be so many cards

533
00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:18.559
<v Speaker 2>that you've you been playing a game and somebody plays

534
00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:20.559
<v Speaker 2>a card on the table. You've never seen it before,

535
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:22.839
<v Speaker 2>and so you read the card and find out what

536
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:25.680
<v Speaker 2>it does. And you know, at the time, we couldn't

537
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:29.759
<v Speaker 2>imagine that, like, well, yeah, okay, that's if you're an

538
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:31.880
<v Speaker 2>avid magic player. There's only a few hundred of them.

539
00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:34.559
<v Speaker 2>You're going to see all the cards. I mean, now

540
00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:38.039
<v Speaker 2>we're there, It is kind of like and so rarity.

541
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:41.200
<v Speaker 2>There's rarity in terms of ravers of common and uncommon,

542
00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:44.000
<v Speaker 2>but there's just rarity in terms of like the lifespan

543
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:47.440
<v Speaker 2>of magic has been around long enough that cards like

544
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:51.359
<v Speaker 2>when I play magic. I sometimes play Magic at conventions

545
00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:55.920
<v Speaker 2>and I take old cards, not because they're I don't

546
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:58.440
<v Speaker 2>take like really expensive cards, you know, But I'm just

547
00:29:58.440 --> 00:30:01.680
<v Speaker 2>talking about like I took all the pre constructed decks

548
00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:04.680
<v Speaker 2>that Magic the Wizards made for Magic in the nineties,

549
00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:06.680
<v Speaker 2>and I have one of each of those decks, and

550
00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:10.200
<v Speaker 2>I take them in a suitcase, mister suitcase, and I

551
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:12.200
<v Speaker 2>take them and I play them, and people love it

552
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:15.160
<v Speaker 2>because most people are like, oh yeah, I never say,

553
00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:18.640
<v Speaker 2>oh ice Age, Oh here's four decks that feature ice

554
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:23.559
<v Speaker 2>Age or Ursasaga or tempest or whatever. And I think

555
00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:28.359
<v Speaker 2>that's the beauty of the rarity is the and it's

556
00:30:28.359 --> 00:30:32.240
<v Speaker 2>also circles back to your question, why would I choose

557
00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:36.000
<v Speaker 2>magic the Gathering to take with me is because there's

558
00:30:36.039 --> 00:30:38.920
<v Speaker 2>so much variety, and there's so there's just so much

559
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:39.279
<v Speaker 2>of it.

560
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:42.799
<v Speaker 1>A lot of people choose this because frankly, it's cheating,

561
00:30:43.240 --> 00:30:46.960
<v Speaker 1>because you could just take all of magic and then

562
00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:48.960
<v Speaker 1>you've got a game for the for the rest of

563
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:49.799
<v Speaker 1>the apocalypse.

564
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:54.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah exactly, Yeah, I cheated too. Yeah. I was thinking

565
00:30:54.119 --> 00:30:56.720
<v Speaker 2>about that too. I mean, asl is the same way, right, Okay,

566
00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:00.920
<v Speaker 2>probably the scenario where you're dashing off with with a

567
00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:03.200
<v Speaker 2>bundle of things under your arms. Okay, you're not taking

568
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:07.480
<v Speaker 2>the entire Magic collection and every ASL expansion, et cetera.

569
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:09.359
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I cheated along with the best of them.

570
00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:13.799
<v Speaker 1>And so you know, how long did it take for

571
00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:17.039
<v Speaker 1>the secondary market market to kick off? And when you

572
00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:19.839
<v Speaker 1>see the prices of some cars, does it make your

573
00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:22.319
<v Speaker 1>eyes water? Well?

574
00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:29.119
<v Speaker 2>Uh yeah, I don't. I well, I water. I don't

575
00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:32.920
<v Speaker 2>know if you mean out of sadness or out of joy,

576
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:33.599
<v Speaker 2>but neither one.

577
00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:35.359
<v Speaker 1>I mean just pure incredulity.

578
00:31:35.480 --> 00:31:39.519
<v Speaker 2>I think incredulity. Yeah, yeah, that's I think that's that's

579
00:31:39.559 --> 00:31:43.599
<v Speaker 2>part of it. Yeah, I saw it's it is. You know,

580
00:31:43.720 --> 00:31:47.319
<v Speaker 2>we we never wanted magic to be out of reach

581
00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:51.519
<v Speaker 2>of people, right, and so we when magic started becoming

582
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:54.440
<v Speaker 2>very quickly, like Magic comes out in nineteen ninety three,

583
00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:59.640
<v Speaker 2>within six months, people are hoarding cards and it's hard

584
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:03.279
<v Speaker 2>to find. And it takes us a year and a

585
00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:05.880
<v Speaker 2>half from when Magic cames out. It wasn't until Fallen

586
00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:10.680
<v Speaker 2>Empires that we got to our goal of magic, that

587
00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:13.720
<v Speaker 2>that the latest expansion would be available at ms RP

588
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:16.359
<v Speaker 2>at retail for like three months. That was our state

589
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:18.480
<v Speaker 2>of goal, like we want when you come out with

590
00:32:18.519 --> 00:32:21.119
<v Speaker 2>a new set, we don't we want you to be

591
00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:24.039
<v Speaker 2>able to buy it at ms RP. It's the opposite

592
00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:31.759
<v Speaker 2>of wanting this crazy price uh inflation. We never wanted that,

593
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:36.559
<v Speaker 2>now we do. It's wonderful that people want to collect cards,

594
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:41.000
<v Speaker 2>and we certainly want to, you know, wanted to accommodate

595
00:32:41.079 --> 00:32:43.799
<v Speaker 2>collectors to some extent. But it was always gamers first,

596
00:32:44.119 --> 00:32:51.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, and if the uh so now, uh yeah, yeah,

597
00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:53.880
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't. It wasn't about these crazy prices. But you know,

598
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:56.960
<v Speaker 2>it is nice that some people who made investments good

599
00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:00.000
<v Speaker 2>and have been able to It is heartwarming when somebody

600
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:03.440
<v Speaker 2>tells me I sold my magic collection from the nineties

601
00:33:03.480 --> 00:33:05.720
<v Speaker 2>and bought a house, you know, like first set my

602
00:33:05.799 --> 00:33:09.119
<v Speaker 2>kids to college, and like wow, I mean, okay, that

603
00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:11.000
<v Speaker 2>is that's great, that's wonderful.

604
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:15.960
<v Speaker 1>So I want to talk now about what C and

605
00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:19.279
<v Speaker 1>D and D because for me, as a D and

606
00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:21.480
<v Speaker 1>D player, I actually only started playing D and D

607
00:33:21.799 --> 00:33:24.519
<v Speaker 1>fifth edition, and so what C and D and D

608
00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:29.640
<v Speaker 1>have always been inextricably linked for me? How did you

609
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:34.279
<v Speaker 1>end up buying TSR and was the sort of completion

610
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:35.480
<v Speaker 1>of a circle for you?

611
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:39.680
<v Speaker 2>Very much completion of a circle in that I started,

612
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:42.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, the I mean, I started with war games

613
00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:44.039
<v Speaker 2>in terms of my personal love, but I started with

614
00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:46.119
<v Speaker 2>the coast to do RPG stuff, and that's where I

615
00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:49.440
<v Speaker 2>thought the market was. That was my passion, my primary

616
00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:52.359
<v Speaker 2>passion at the time in the world of games was RPGs.

617
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:57.440
<v Speaker 2>And we actually and we published some RPG stuff before

618
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:02.960
<v Speaker 2>Magic Tellaslan Order, and we continued even after Magic came

619
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:05.720
<v Speaker 2>out with the like every Way and some other things.

620
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:12.239
<v Speaker 2>But we realized that we were not It wasn't a

621
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:14.400
<v Speaker 2>good place for us to be competing, and that it

622
00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:18.480
<v Speaker 2>was in that in those days, RPGs were such a

623
00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:22.280
<v Speaker 2>small sector in terms of economics, in terms of dollars

624
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:25.119
<v Speaker 2>compared to Magic, that it just wasn't worth our time

625
00:34:25.159 --> 00:34:27.639
<v Speaker 2>to be in it. And I made the statement, you know,

626
00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:30.679
<v Speaker 2>when I closed down our RPG department, I said, okay,

627
00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:33.239
<v Speaker 2>I you know, if we can't have the number one

628
00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:35.400
<v Speaker 2>brand in this category, we shouldn't be in it. Well,

629
00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:37.360
<v Speaker 2>they're not. Later we had the opportunity to get the

630
00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:40.079
<v Speaker 2>number one brand. So the only the reason we had

631
00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:44.320
<v Speaker 2>the opportunity was that the TSR fell on hard times

632
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:46.400
<v Speaker 2>as an independent company. Ben Riggs. By the way, it's

633
00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:51.159
<v Speaker 2>written a great book about this, uh and John Peters

634
00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:54.360
<v Speaker 2>has written articles about it as well, about the history

635
00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:59.280
<v Speaker 2>and it. Uh. Yeah, and you know, they were basically

636
00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:04.239
<v Speaker 2>on the verge of bankruptcy. They needed somebody to buy them.

637
00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:09.199
<v Speaker 2>They were in a cash to the lockdown and it

638
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:13.440
<v Speaker 2>was ended up having I ended up having that opportunity,

639
00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:17.000
<v Speaker 2>which was absolutely wonderful and thanks to Ryan Nancy who

640
00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:21.760
<v Speaker 2>opened that door. And so it was like a full circle.

641
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:23.000
<v Speaker 2>It was like, wow, this is what we got in

642
00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:26.119
<v Speaker 2>got into doing. I love magic, really happy. You know.

643
00:35:26.360 --> 00:35:31.400
<v Speaker 2>Magic was a wonderful consolation prize if you will. I

644
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:33.840
<v Speaker 2>mean that's now, you know, in terms of you started

645
00:35:33.880 --> 00:35:37.000
<v Speaker 2>off doing RPGs and had you know, did something else.

646
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:40.280
<v Speaker 2>So it was so that's how it happened.

647
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:43.199
<v Speaker 1>And so you know, you were a player, and I

648
00:35:43.239 --> 00:35:45.199
<v Speaker 1>assume you started playing D and D when you were young,

649
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:48.440
<v Speaker 1>and D and D is this very cool thing that

650
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:51.840
<v Speaker 1>you do as a kids, and he opens you up

651
00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:57.119
<v Speaker 1>to whole new worlds and new ways of creativity and storytelling.

652
00:35:57.519 --> 00:36:02.199
<v Speaker 1>Was it just playing bloody weird to think I owned

653
00:36:02.360 --> 00:36:03.159
<v Speaker 1>this now?

654
00:36:03.880 --> 00:36:09.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh my god. Yeah, it was so surreal, you know,

655
00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:15.519
<v Speaker 2>to go to Lake Geneva and to buy a company,

656
00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:18.000
<v Speaker 2>and it's just weird, I mean, buying a company, Like

657
00:36:18.039 --> 00:36:20.519
<v Speaker 2>how how do you do that? What you do with

658
00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:24.119
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of money? And it feels kind of awkward,

659
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:29.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, and like, I don't I deserve this aside

660
00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:30.440
<v Speaker 2>from the fact that I just happened to have a

661
00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:33.480
<v Speaker 2>bunch of money and can make it happen. But I

662
00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:36.400
<v Speaker 2>also knew that I was saving a lot of people's

663
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:41.719
<v Speaker 2>jobs and saving a game that a lot of people

664
00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:45.239
<v Speaker 2>really loved, and many people thank me for that over

665
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:47.880
<v Speaker 2>the years. So I knew that we were doing a

666
00:36:47.960 --> 00:36:52.079
<v Speaker 2>very noble thing in addition to a very smart thing economically,

667
00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:55.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, with our money. And but yeah, it was

668
00:36:55.559 --> 00:36:59.159
<v Speaker 2>very hard, Like the morning that the deal was done.

669
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:01.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, we went and sign documents at Lorraine, the

670
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:05.039
<v Speaker 2>previous owner's place, the night before and the next morning, okay,

671
00:37:05.159 --> 00:37:07.079
<v Speaker 2>so she meets me at the company, you know, and

672
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:10.079
<v Speaker 2>hand me the keys literally here's the keys of the building.

673
00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:12.519
<v Speaker 2>And I sent in the car before I went in

674
00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:14.760
<v Speaker 2>to see her and just cried. I mean, like, I'm like,

675
00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:18.559
<v Speaker 2>what am I doing. I was raised on a farm

676
00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:23.800
<v Speaker 2>and Idaho, you know, Yeah, it was very emotional and weird.

677
00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:27.679
<v Speaker 1>And so, as far as I know, Gary Gox wasn't

678
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:30.760
<v Speaker 1>there at that time. Dave Hoison kind of was only

679
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:32.440
<v Speaker 1>there right at the beginning as far as I know.

680
00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:35.519
<v Speaker 1>I mean, what was your relationship with those guys, Like,

681
00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:37.760
<v Speaker 1>after you bought it, did you consult with them? Did

682
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:41.480
<v Speaker 1>you speak to them? What were their feelings on that acquisition?

683
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:46.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? No, we did. I did know Dave and Gary

684
00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:52.960
<v Speaker 2>outside of all this through gaming, but only briefly, you know.

685
00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:56.760
<v Speaker 2>And of course, when I became interested in in acquiring

686
00:37:57.320 --> 00:37:58.920
<v Speaker 2>D and D and kind of the word got out

687
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:02.519
<v Speaker 2>that I might be, then they were both uh. You know.

688
00:38:03.079 --> 00:38:06.360
<v Speaker 2>In fact, I got to make have a really nice

689
00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:10.440
<v Speaker 2>series of game sessions with Gary guy because he lived

690
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:14.159
<v Speaker 2>in Lake Geneva still and so uh. And so when

691
00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:17.000
<v Speaker 2>in the process of acquiring both before the deal was

692
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:19.960
<v Speaker 2>done and after the deal was done, I was going

693
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:21.880
<v Speaker 2>out to Lake Dania, spending a lot of time there.

694
00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:24.239
<v Speaker 2>And you know, it can be kind of awkward. You're

695
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:26.480
<v Speaker 2>buying a company. You don't go out, you know, you

696
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:29.000
<v Speaker 2>don't go hang out with the employees. You know, as

697
00:38:29.079 --> 00:38:31.280
<v Speaker 2>much as you might like to and wish you could,

698
00:38:31.599 --> 00:38:35.159
<v Speaker 2>it's just too awkward. And probably inappropriate for some legal reasons.

699
00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:38.920
<v Speaker 2>And so you know. So, so Gary actually gave me

700
00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:40.960
<v Speaker 2>a call. He said, hey, you know you want somebody

701
00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:44.159
<v Speaker 2>game with, come on over. So I went over and played. Uh.

702
00:38:44.199 --> 00:38:46.960
<v Speaker 2>We played war games together. I'm playing Battle of the

703
00:38:46.960 --> 00:38:51.039
<v Speaker 2>Bullets actually, and we played U D Day and and

704
00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:56.000
<v Speaker 2>UH Africa or some of the old classic Alan Hill games.

705
00:38:56.280 --> 00:39:00.679
<v Speaker 2>And I didn't know Dave as much, but I met

706
00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:03.239
<v Speaker 2>him a couple of times. But then then I had

707
00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:05.559
<v Speaker 2>a you know, after the deal was done, I had

708
00:39:05.559 --> 00:39:09.679
<v Speaker 2>a business reason to spend them. I certainly wanted their

709
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:14.519
<v Speaker 2>warm wishes. I was worried about I'll be honest, I wasn't.

710
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:16.079
<v Speaker 2>I didn't feel like it was the right thing to

711
00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:19.360
<v Speaker 2>try and recruit them in some way, you know. I

712
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:22.960
<v Speaker 2>just felt that well, selfishly, perhaps I just want to

713
00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:25.039
<v Speaker 2>put my own stamp on the game and thought that

714
00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:29.400
<v Speaker 2>I knew better maybe in them, or you know, just

715
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:31.679
<v Speaker 2>I have my own opinions about how the game should go.

716
00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:35.519
<v Speaker 2>And uh, but I wanted there. I was hoping for

717
00:39:35.559 --> 00:39:38.320
<v Speaker 2>their endorsement, and they did endorse it. They we got

718
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:42.920
<v Speaker 2>the two of them on stage together, UH for at

719
00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:45.639
<v Speaker 2>gen Con. I remember exactly what year, but it's either

720
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:48.119
<v Speaker 2>the year renounced D and D third edition or the

721
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:51.039
<v Speaker 2>year we published it. I can't remember which. And I

722
00:39:51.079 --> 00:39:56.400
<v Speaker 2>also wanted a There was a lot of legal disputes

723
00:39:56.480 --> 00:40:02.639
<v Speaker 2>and some open lawsuits, some legal actions between various you know,

724
00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:06.239
<v Speaker 2>between various parties related to all this, and so I

725
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:09.159
<v Speaker 2>wanted a clean bill of health on the intellectual property.

726
00:40:09.320 --> 00:40:13.400
<v Speaker 2>So I went and went to Gary and Dave and

727
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:17.840
<v Speaker 2>a couple other people and just paid them a bunch

728
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:23.000
<v Speaker 2>of money to sign over just a statement of varying

729
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:26.400
<v Speaker 2>that we owned property entirely and blah blah blah. So

730
00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:30.400
<v Speaker 2>that was I think that was a good thing. I mean,

731
00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:31.599
<v Speaker 2>it certainly a good thing for me. I think it

732
00:40:31.639 --> 00:40:33.039
<v Speaker 2>was a good thing for them too, because they certainly

733
00:40:33.039 --> 00:40:34.440
<v Speaker 2>weren't getting money from TSR.

734
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:38.239
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, And so then you know, you're in a

735
00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:43.800
<v Speaker 1>position where you are the originat sort of magic, which

736
00:40:44.119 --> 00:40:47.480
<v Speaker 1>by this time is probably the biggest hobby board game

737
00:40:47.519 --> 00:40:51.079
<v Speaker 1>in the world, certainly the biggest CCG, and and you

738
00:40:51.159 --> 00:40:55.800
<v Speaker 1>owned D and D, which you know is at this

739
00:40:55.880 --> 00:40:59.079
<v Speaker 1>time legendary. People of my age remember the cartoon and

740
00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:02.239
<v Speaker 1>all of that sort of stuff. Where was wats then

741
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:07.119
<v Speaker 1>at this time? Were they the pinnacle of hobby publishing.

742
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:14.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, I would say we were certainly in competition for it,

743
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:17.280
<v Speaker 2>you know. I I think that it kind of depends

744
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:19.119
<v Speaker 2>on how you value companies and look at stuff. But

745
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:24.480
<v Speaker 2>Games Workshop was a pretty close uh to to us

746
00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:26.480
<v Speaker 2>in terms of size and magnitude. In fact, they were

747
00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:28.679
<v Speaker 2>actually a public companies I think probably still are. I

748
00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:32.320
<v Speaker 2>don't don't keep track of things, but so it wasn't

749
00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:37.639
<v Speaker 2>like we were alone. And also depending on your on

750
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:41.199
<v Speaker 2>which year you pick, you know, at some point and

751
00:41:41.239 --> 00:41:43.159
<v Speaker 2>whether or not you want to include you know, you

752
00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:47.679
<v Speaker 2>Gil and Pokemon in in as hobby games. Uh, you know,

753
00:41:47.719 --> 00:41:50.800
<v Speaker 2>at some point Pokemon passed us up, you know and

754
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:54.639
<v Speaker 2>became a bigger company than was the Coast and know

755
00:41:54.719 --> 00:41:57.320
<v Speaker 2>and stuff. So but there was certainly, you know, we

756
00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:03.599
<v Speaker 2>certainly have you know, felt happy that we were, you know,

757
00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:06.719
<v Speaker 2>in that stratosphere if you will.

758
00:42:08.119 --> 00:42:10.039
<v Speaker 1>So you next game means dungeons and drugons And we've

759
00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:12.000
<v Speaker 1>talked about the business, so we don't need to we

760
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:13.840
<v Speaker 1>don't need to dwell on the business. Let's talk about

761
00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:18.159
<v Speaker 1>the game. So what's your favorite class to play? Oh?

762
00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:22.639
<v Speaker 2>My god? So okay, well, come on, man, a wizard

763
00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:30.679
<v Speaker 2>of course of course, yeah, totally. Seriously, I like playing.

764
00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:32.679
<v Speaker 2>I mean I liked it more in earlier editions back

765
00:42:32.760 --> 00:42:36.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean now, I mean, okay, all the every edition

766
00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:38.840
<v Speaker 2>is good. Okay, every edition of D and D is

767
00:42:38.920 --> 00:42:44.440
<v Speaker 2>great and wonderful, fabulous. Firstly, I preferred it back when

768
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:47.880
<v Speaker 2>Wizards were the only ones that were casting the spells,

769
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:50.719
<v Speaker 2>or most most of the spells, you know, the magic spells.

770
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:53.320
<v Speaker 2>They are not the healing stuff, right, So now it

771
00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:58.679
<v Speaker 2>seems like everybody's a spellcaster, and so it feels, uh

772
00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:04.360
<v Speaker 2>so my preference playing you know, a early edition wizard.

773
00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:08.280
<v Speaker 2>Modern editions, Yeah, I think kind of doesn't matter. They're

774
00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:10.960
<v Speaker 2>all kind of yeah, everybody do everything.

775
00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:13.960
<v Speaker 1>But it's one of those things like I've never played

776
00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:18.440
<v Speaker 1>the early editions, but I hear that Wizards are essentially

777
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:23.400
<v Speaker 1>one hit killable, a level one. I mean, how do

778
00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:24.159
<v Speaker 1>you deal with that?

779
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:31.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, it's wonderful, man, It's it was this idea.

780
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, I mean, you were a first of a wizard.

781
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:37.480
<v Speaker 2>You had one spell. It was probably asleep. Although if

782
00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:41.519
<v Speaker 2>you're fighting Goblin Stuf, sleep's pretty good or magic missile

783
00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:47.320
<v Speaker 2>or something, and the party protects you because the party

784
00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:49.480
<v Speaker 2>can't do what you can do you know the things

785
00:43:49.480 --> 00:43:51.800
<v Speaker 2>that you can do, like if you know read, you

786
00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:56.119
<v Speaker 2>know readmagic, nobody else can do that, you know. And

787
00:43:56.280 --> 00:44:00.320
<v Speaker 2>so there's certain spells that that you alone have that

788
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:03.440
<v Speaker 2>the party is going to need. So the party protects you.

789
00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:09.239
<v Speaker 2>And that was a very special dynamic and early D

790
00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:12.239
<v Speaker 2>and D. And yeah, you're right, you don't, you know,

791
00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:15.480
<v Speaker 2>protect the wizard? What's the comedy? But and so you

792
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:18.440
<v Speaker 2>are the weakest character in the party, but as time

793
00:44:18.519 --> 00:44:21.920
<v Speaker 2>goes on, eventually you're the most powerful character in the party,

794
00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:25.119
<v Speaker 2>right And and I you know, I think Jonathan I

795
00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:27.400
<v Speaker 2>always like this about it. But Jonathan Tweet, who's lead

796
00:44:27.400 --> 00:44:29.519
<v Speaker 2>designer and third edition we had, you know, he you know,

797
00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:31.800
<v Speaker 2>he brought me around and they know, you know, a

798
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:35.239
<v Speaker 2>better game design would be at every level all the

799
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:39.800
<v Speaker 2>classes are balanced with each other, like okay, boring, but

800
00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:40.639
<v Speaker 2>you're probably.

801
00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:46.400
<v Speaker 1>And so then what kind of D and D do

802
00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:49.320
<v Speaker 1>you like? So when I run D and D, I'm

803
00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:52.119
<v Speaker 1>very vibes based. I'm not very rules based. I like

804
00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:56.480
<v Speaker 1>to tell a story. I'm far too nice to my players.

805
00:44:57.239 --> 00:45:00.000
<v Speaker 1>What are you? Are you someone who likes the tactic

806
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:03.400
<v Speaker 1>call the sort of war gaming aspect of D and

807
00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:05.480
<v Speaker 1>D or are you more of a storyteller.

808
00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:11.880
<v Speaker 2>I like trying to both, you know. I my favorite

809
00:45:12.760 --> 00:45:16.079
<v Speaker 2>edition these days is Shadow Dark. I think. I think

810
00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:19.800
<v Speaker 2>it's really brilliant. I think, uh, Kelsey did an amazing job

811
00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:24.440
<v Speaker 2>of that, and and that is it has. I like

812
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:26.679
<v Speaker 2>the old school field of things. I love the old

813
00:45:26.679 --> 00:45:28.880
<v Speaker 2>school D and D. I know it's almost a mantra now,

814
00:45:28.920 --> 00:45:33.480
<v Speaker 2>but I like that feel of danger and the importance

815
00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:36.880
<v Speaker 2>of tactics and uh and a lot of combat. I

816
00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:39.960
<v Speaker 2>like that. But I was also never a fan of

817
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:44.840
<v Speaker 2>how clude you the system was, and I think, uh,

818
00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:50.079
<v Speaker 2>I think that so I I like having a combat heavy,

819
00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:53.800
<v Speaker 2>drama heavy, you know, on the verge of death, you know,

820
00:45:54.119 --> 00:45:56.800
<v Speaker 2>trying to you know, crawl your way through there, you know,

821
00:45:57.159 --> 00:46:01.519
<v Speaker 2>through the dungeon, unlimited resources and and barely escaping to

822
00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:04.920
<v Speaker 2>tell the tale. And it's it's hard to push it

823
00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:08.239
<v Speaker 2>to that without accidentally, you know, killing. I don't really

824
00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:12.119
<v Speaker 2>actually want any player characters to die, but I want

825
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:14.519
<v Speaker 2>them to feel like they could and be worried about it.

826
00:46:14.559 --> 00:46:16.679
<v Speaker 1>The threats of death has to be real, right, otherwise

827
00:46:16.719 --> 00:46:17.480
<v Speaker 1>it's pointless.

828
00:46:18.199 --> 00:46:20.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that that threat of death has to be real

829
00:46:21.039 --> 00:46:23.440
<v Speaker 2>and and it has to be strong enough. I mean,

830
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:25.800
<v Speaker 2>and and so I mean once in a while, you

831
00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:28.599
<v Speaker 2>know it's going to happen, and and it's always sad

832
00:46:28.599 --> 00:46:32.199
<v Speaker 2>what it does, but at the same time, it's crucial

833
00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:35.400
<v Speaker 2>for the enjoyment of everybody else, for the for the

834
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:39.119
<v Speaker 2>long term of the of the campaign. So but I

835
00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:42.159
<v Speaker 2>never liked how cluegy a lot of the early edition

836
00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:45.400
<v Speaker 2>rules were, and so one of the reasons I like

837
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:48.360
<v Speaker 2>Shadow Dark is it it? It's I think Kelsey went

838
00:46:48.360 --> 00:46:50.840
<v Speaker 2>through it and grabbed the best bits out of every

839
00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:54.400
<v Speaker 2>single additionally edition of D and D and then ruthlessly

840
00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:58.960
<v Speaker 2>cut out all the crap. And uh so that's that's

841
00:46:58.960 --> 00:46:59.679
<v Speaker 2>what I play now.

842
00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:04.039
<v Speaker 1>So I want to talk now about your the end

843
00:47:04.119 --> 00:47:06.519
<v Speaker 1>of your time at Watson and gen Con. So why

844
00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:08.360
<v Speaker 1>did you leave Wizards of the Coast.

845
00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:12.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, I have that weird sort of entrepreneurial thing of like,

846
00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:14.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, you start a company and eventually you move on.

847
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:21.639
<v Speaker 2>I get. I think part of it was that Wizards

848
00:47:23.079 --> 00:47:26.320
<v Speaker 2>stopped being real interesting for me after D and D,

849
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:29.920
<v Speaker 2>in the sense that the company got big enough that

850
00:47:30.559 --> 00:47:34.840
<v Speaker 2>it's it was hard to you know, entertain launching new

851
00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:37.760
<v Speaker 2>games because you've got a business, you know, You've got

852
00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:42.880
<v Speaker 2>Pokemon and Magic, which are both several hundred million dollars

853
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:47.519
<v Speaker 2>revenue businesses, and you have D and D, which D

854
00:47:47.599 --> 00:47:52.960
<v Speaker 2>and D is a tens of millions dollar business, which

855
00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:57.079
<v Speaker 2>is small compared to the other two. And so like,

856
00:47:57.159 --> 00:47:59.880
<v Speaker 2>I have a company at running a company that where

857
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:02.559
<v Speaker 2>D and D is the small product, and I'm having

858
00:48:02.599 --> 00:48:05.880
<v Speaker 2>trouble having it get all the attention I wanted to get.

859
00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Although it's doing you know, we're doing well, but you

860
00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:14.920
<v Speaker 2>launched anything new? What you know, how do you do that? Like?

861
00:48:15.239 --> 00:48:18.400
<v Speaker 2>And you know, and I really wanted to be able

862
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:22.639
<v Speaker 2>to be publishing doing new things all the time. And

863
00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:24.960
<v Speaker 2>I just I don't feel like I could do this.

864
00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:28.320
<v Speaker 2>And I was also just as an entrepreneur, we're you know,

865
00:48:28.719 --> 00:48:32.239
<v Speaker 2>thinking about things like return on investment and maximizing shareholder

866
00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:33.840
<v Speaker 2>value and all this sort of stuff like that.

867
00:48:34.400 --> 00:48:34.519
<v Speaker 1>Uh.

868
00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:39.320
<v Speaker 2>I had to respect the fact that all the shareholders

869
00:48:39.320 --> 00:48:41.840
<v Speaker 2>of Wizards of the Coast in the nineties, a few

870
00:48:41.840 --> 00:48:44.880
<v Speaker 2>of them were investors, but for the most part, it

871
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:47.039
<v Speaker 2>was all sweat equity. It was all all the people

872
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:50.960
<v Speaker 2>who built the company, and every employee had had shares

873
00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:54.639
<v Speaker 2>of stock and Wizards of the Coast and so when

874
00:48:54.679 --> 00:48:56.960
<v Speaker 2>Wizards got really big, people are like getting out the

875
00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.480
<v Speaker 2>calculators and looking up, you know, how do you value

876
00:48:59.480 --> 00:49:04.079
<v Speaker 2>this company? My stock worth right, and realizing that, wow, hey,

877
00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:07.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm a millionaire. But and then to go down and

878
00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:08.800
<v Speaker 2>try and buy a house, you can't buy a house

879
00:49:08.800 --> 00:49:10.920
<v Speaker 2>with it. And so it's just on paper. It's like,

880
00:49:11.039 --> 00:49:15.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, unless you can convert this ownership into cash,

881
00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:18.800
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't mean anything. And so I felt that there

882
00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:22.440
<v Speaker 2>was I just felt it. I was definitely there were

883
00:49:22.440 --> 00:49:26.920
<v Speaker 2>people had stock were saying, Peter, come on, let's sell

884
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:29.159
<v Speaker 2>the company or take on a big investor or something,

885
00:49:29.239 --> 00:49:31.039
<v Speaker 2>buy a bunch of people out or something like that.

886
00:49:31.159 --> 00:49:35.440
<v Speaker 2>So we we the message was clear by around nineteen

887
00:49:35.480 --> 00:49:38.719
<v Speaker 2>ninety eight that we had to have some sort of

888
00:49:38.719 --> 00:49:41.400
<v Speaker 2>what they call a liquidity event where you make the

889
00:49:41.480 --> 00:49:45.480
<v Speaker 2>stock liquid, you know, sellable for the shareholders. So that

890
00:49:45.639 --> 00:49:49.000
<v Speaker 2>was the primary driver. But personally I was okay with

891
00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:52.280
<v Speaker 2>it because you know, there was I was curious about

892
00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:55.239
<v Speaker 2>doing something else too, And I also liked the idea

893
00:49:55.239 --> 00:49:56.880
<v Speaker 2>of like quit while you're on top.

894
00:49:56.719 --> 00:50:02.199
<v Speaker 1>Man, you know, and so then why gen con.

895
00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:07.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, uh, you know, after I left, you know, after

896
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:10.559
<v Speaker 2>I sold Wizards to Hasbro. I stayed on there for

897
00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:12.119
<v Speaker 2>about a year and a half, and then after I

898
00:50:12.239 --> 00:50:15.280
<v Speaker 2>left that, you know, suddenly I was unemployed and I

899
00:50:15.320 --> 00:50:17.440
<v Speaker 2>was too young to not be working, and it was

900
00:50:17.519 --> 00:50:19.760
<v Speaker 2>very much like, well, what do I want to do next?

901
00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:23.920
<v Speaker 2>And don't want to start in a company whatever. And

902
00:50:24.440 --> 00:50:29.800
<v Speaker 2>I told my successor at Wizards as a part of Hasbro,

903
00:50:29.920 --> 00:50:31.800
<v Speaker 2>I said, you know, at some point, Hasbro is going

904
00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:34.239
<v Speaker 2>to want to sell some of the different parts of

905
00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:37.159
<v Speaker 2>this company. You know, you should think of me as

906
00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:40.000
<v Speaker 2>a potential buyer because I know the company really well,

907
00:50:40.119 --> 00:50:43.639
<v Speaker 2>so I might be interested. And so sure enough, at

908
00:50:43.639 --> 00:50:45.280
<v Speaker 2>some point I got the call and said, yeah, you

909
00:50:45.320 --> 00:50:48.320
<v Speaker 2>were right, Peter. We're selling off four different business groups

910
00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:52.119
<v Speaker 2>of of Wizards, and you know, would you be interested

911
00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:54.159
<v Speaker 2>in any of them? One was the magazines, one was

912
00:50:54.199 --> 00:50:57.400
<v Speaker 2>the online store, one was the brick and mortar stores,

913
00:50:57.400 --> 00:51:00.159
<v Speaker 2>because some people remember the Wizards had a change. We

914
00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:03.760
<v Speaker 2>bought a chain of retailers and in the nineties, uh

915
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:08.719
<v Speaker 2>uh and and gen Con and so gen Con, Oh

916
00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:11.800
<v Speaker 2>my god, I mean to me, you know, when we

917
00:51:11.840 --> 00:51:14.360
<v Speaker 2>bought TSR, it's like, yeah, we bought d D And

918
00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:16.599
<v Speaker 2>I'd always like yeah, and gen Con. By the way,

919
00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:20.719
<v Speaker 2>because even though it was much bigger now, it was

920
00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:23.840
<v Speaker 2>then it was, you know, the biggest game company around,

921
00:51:23.880 --> 00:51:29.440
<v Speaker 2>at least in the US market. And so, uh well,

922
00:51:30.679 --> 00:51:33.159
<v Speaker 2>send me the financials. I was pretty sure, just based

923
00:51:33.199 --> 00:51:36.280
<v Speaker 2>on my own memory, that it was a profitable business.

924
00:51:36.519 --> 00:51:39.920
<v Speaker 2>And uh so they sent me the financials and we

925
00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:42.800
<v Speaker 2>did a deal, and I loved it because it put

926
00:51:42.880 --> 00:51:47.440
<v Speaker 2>me after a year of not having a job. I felt, wow,

927
00:51:47.480 --> 00:51:50.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm not connected to the gaming industry. I'm used to

928
00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:55.119
<v Speaker 2>having this position of prominence in the games and being relevant,

929
00:51:55.159 --> 00:51:58.800
<v Speaker 2>and now I'm not relevant, and so acquiring gen Con,

930
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:04.159
<v Speaker 2>uh me, it gave me a place in tabletop game,

931
00:52:04.199 --> 00:52:09.480
<v Speaker 2>a professional place in the gaming industry that I was missing.

932
00:52:09.519 --> 00:52:12.360
<v Speaker 2>Didn't realize I would miss when I sold off Watzy.

933
00:52:13.119 --> 00:52:17.920
<v Speaker 1>And you know, as you said, gen Con is now huge.

934
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:20.960
<v Speaker 1>It is. There's always the big argument which one's bigger,

935
00:52:21.159 --> 00:52:23.400
<v Speaker 1>essenal gen Con, but it's definitely one of the two

936
00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:27.079
<v Speaker 1>biggest analog gaming conventions in the world. And this was

937
00:52:27.119 --> 00:52:31.159
<v Speaker 1>achieved under your stewardship. How did you achieve that? How

938
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:35.119
<v Speaker 1>did you change gen Con to make it this huge institution?

939
00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:40.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, I I wish I had a real like

940
00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:43.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, gen Con is a very logistical sort of organization.

941
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:49.920
<v Speaker 2>Running a convention is it's almost a trap to in

942
00:52:50.599 --> 00:52:55.280
<v Speaker 2>to do it as as like you don't if you

943
00:52:55.320 --> 00:52:57.719
<v Speaker 2>get too creative. It's almost a bad thing to do.

944
00:52:57.880 --> 00:52:59.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, like, really, what you want to focus on

945
00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:02.360
<v Speaker 2>is you want to focus on the operations. And that's

946
00:53:02.360 --> 00:53:04.440
<v Speaker 2>what we did. It was like, Okay, we've got it.

947
00:53:05.239 --> 00:53:07.760
<v Speaker 2>We've got to have a really kick ass registration system.

948
00:53:08.239 --> 00:53:11.199
<v Speaker 2>We've got to have the right city because Milwaukee was

949
00:53:11.320 --> 00:53:13.719
<v Speaker 2>not the right city. We need to have the right

950
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:17.039
<v Speaker 2>venue contracts in place, the right hotel contracts in place.

951
00:53:17.079 --> 00:53:19.159
<v Speaker 2>We need to organize around how do we do this.

952
00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:22.519
<v Speaker 2>We need to have really good people in all the positions,

953
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:26.639
<v Speaker 2>the important positions of the company. Uh So it's not

954
00:53:26.679 --> 00:53:29.119
<v Speaker 2>a very sexy answer, but that is the answer. That's

955
00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:31.920
<v Speaker 2>that's what we did. We we just took what was

956
00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:37.000
<v Speaker 2>already an absolutely wonderful show and and and it was

957
00:53:37.039 --> 00:53:40.079
<v Speaker 2>the biggest in the US. Yeah okay, esson who knows,

958
00:53:40.119 --> 00:53:44.679
<v Speaker 2>but and uh uh, and we just we just doubled

959
00:53:44.679 --> 00:53:47.719
<v Speaker 2>down on it. And I I also had the a

960
00:53:47.880 --> 00:53:54.519
<v Speaker 2>very strong interest in wanting spectacle, like what what can

961
00:53:54.639 --> 00:53:57.239
<v Speaker 2>we do? This is kind of exception all the logistics stuff,

962
00:53:57.280 --> 00:54:00.320
<v Speaker 2>but like in addition to all that, is there something

963
00:54:00.360 --> 00:54:03.119
<v Speaker 2>we can do that is just really special that you

964
00:54:03.159 --> 00:54:07.639
<v Speaker 2>can't do anywhere else. And I met Jeff martin True Dungeon,

965
00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:14.119
<v Speaker 2>and I saw that. I invited him to bring True

966
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:16.679
<v Speaker 2>Dungeon to gen Con and for a long time comes

967
00:54:16.679 --> 00:54:18.239
<v Speaker 2>in a place you could play True Dungeon. And so

968
00:54:18.639 --> 00:54:20.800
<v Speaker 2>that was like a huge sort of spect I think

969
00:54:20.840 --> 00:54:23.360
<v Speaker 2>that was an important part of it. It was certainly

970
00:54:23.400 --> 00:54:25.960
<v Speaker 2>our best selling event for many many years, probably still is,

971
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:32.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, and doing things like like those opportunities. Sometimes

972
00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:34.440
<v Speaker 2>you have these opportunities we're like, oh, hey, we could

973
00:54:34.480 --> 00:54:38.039
<v Speaker 2>make a spectacle out of this, Like when grabbing the stadium,

974
00:54:38.119 --> 00:54:39.840
<v Speaker 2>Like when we got really big, we say, hey, what

975
00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:43.519
<v Speaker 2>if we rent out the Colts Stadium Football stadium is

976
00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:48.400
<v Speaker 2>right next door and just like have space for gaming

977
00:54:49.079 --> 00:54:51.639
<v Speaker 2>on the on the grid iron, right, you know. And

978
00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:54.400
<v Speaker 2>so and then that year that we did that was

979
00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:58.599
<v Speaker 2>also the fiftieth anniversary of gen Con, and so we

980
00:54:58.679 --> 00:55:01.360
<v Speaker 2>did a big fifty of gen Con sort of thing,

981
00:55:01.679 --> 00:55:06.280
<v Speaker 2>and we built a museum. John Peterson, Paul Storenberg and

982
00:55:06.320 --> 00:55:10.639
<v Speaker 2>Bill Mainhart helped me do this. We effectively created a

983
00:55:10.840 --> 00:55:15.599
<v Speaker 2>Tabletop Gaming History exhibit there, and we built a facade

984
00:55:16.400 --> 00:55:19.679
<v Speaker 2>of the Horticultural Hall in Lake Geneva, which is where

985
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:24.559
<v Speaker 2>the first gen Con was held with fifty attendees back

986
00:55:24.559 --> 00:55:27.599
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen sixty seven or sixty eight. Always get confused

987
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:30.519
<v Speaker 2>which one was. That's some very embarrassing to me, And

988
00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:33.639
<v Speaker 2>that was right on the fifty yard line of the stadium,

989
00:55:34.239 --> 00:55:37.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, So I think that, And then you know,

990
00:55:37.519 --> 00:55:40.559
<v Speaker 2>just you know, being being a good salesman and talking

991
00:55:40.559 --> 00:55:43.360
<v Speaker 2>to all your exhibitors and like appreciating them and loving

992
00:55:43.400 --> 00:55:45.880
<v Speaker 2>them and loving all the attendees and playing lots of games,

993
00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:48.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, And that sort of thing always comes naturally

994
00:55:48.480 --> 00:55:51.920
<v Speaker 2>for me because I love playing games, I love hanging

995
00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:55.639
<v Speaker 2>out with gamers, and I love, you know, showing my

996
00:55:55.679 --> 00:55:57.760
<v Speaker 2>appreciation to all the people that come to my show.

997
00:55:59.119 --> 00:56:02.000
<v Speaker 1>So your next game, and he's a sort of it's

998
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:05.079
<v Speaker 1>from a Leviathan of the eurogame world and it's one

999
00:56:05.119 --> 00:56:08.679
<v Speaker 1>of his biggest games. And this is a feast for roading.

1000
00:56:09.719 --> 00:56:13.280
<v Speaker 1>So how good is Uve Rosenberg?

1001
00:56:15.280 --> 00:56:18.639
<v Speaker 2>I think it's amazing. You know. I don't know him personally,

1002
00:56:18.679 --> 00:56:25.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, so, I but I love, you know, I

1003
00:56:25.639 --> 00:56:28.199
<v Speaker 2>love the work replacement games that you know they I

1004
00:56:28.199 --> 00:56:30.400
<v Speaker 2>feel like he's like, if you think about the world

1005
00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:32.519
<v Speaker 2>of eurogames and stuff like that, he's like the guy

1006
00:56:32.599 --> 00:56:34.480
<v Speaker 2>that's running, that's carrying the ball straight up in the

1007
00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:38.119
<v Speaker 2>middle towards a touchdown. You know, he's like doing the

1008
00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:43.039
<v Speaker 2>hard work, you know, Agricola, Coverna, you know, fast for own.

1009
00:56:43.320 --> 00:56:49.320
<v Speaker 2>You know, just these are his games are absolutely fantastic.

1010
00:56:49.400 --> 00:56:53.199
<v Speaker 2>And I I could have picked one of several fields

1011
00:56:53.199 --> 00:56:55.360
<v Speaker 2>of r Oh my god, if I'm gonna be stuck

1012
00:56:55.360 --> 00:56:58.920
<v Speaker 2>in the cabin. But you know, for if I stuck

1013
00:56:58.960 --> 00:57:00.519
<v Speaker 2>in I can't say my wife, now, can I?

1014
00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:01.119
<v Speaker 1>But if I'm.

1015
00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:06.199
<v Speaker 2>But have the pleasure of my wife being there, it's

1016
00:57:06.280 --> 00:57:09.840
<v Speaker 2>optimized for two players fields of row. It's just amazed.

1017
00:57:09.880 --> 00:57:13.480
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I think that he is. There's something sort

1018
00:57:13.480 --> 00:57:20.559
<v Speaker 2>of to me. His designs sort of define the central

1019
00:57:20.840 --> 00:57:23.440
<v Speaker 2>position of what. And I'm not a euro games expert.

1020
00:57:23.480 --> 00:57:25.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm saying this is kind of a euro Games dabbler.

1021
00:57:26.360 --> 00:57:28.119
<v Speaker 2>But I just I just love his games, you know.

1022
00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:31.840
<v Speaker 1>So you know, as you say, you're you know, you're

1023
00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:34.039
<v Speaker 1>a wold gamer, You're a role playing gamer, You're a

1024
00:57:34.119 --> 00:57:39.280
<v Speaker 1>thematic gamer. What is the joy for a thematic gamer?

1025
00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:42.159
<v Speaker 1>What is the joy of a good euro game.

1026
00:57:44.079 --> 00:57:46.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, the theme is still important for me, it is,

1027
00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:50.079
<v Speaker 2>I think maybe I can now I can see, you know,

1028
00:57:50.599 --> 00:57:55.159
<v Speaker 2>over to an adjacent space where somebody doesn't really care

1029
00:57:55.800 --> 00:57:58.719
<v Speaker 2>about the theme. I can see that. But for me,

1030
00:57:59.320 --> 00:58:01.880
<v Speaker 2>I like the theme. I like magic, the gathering. I

1031
00:58:01.880 --> 00:58:04.920
<v Speaker 2>never forget I'm a wizard dueling with you as a wizard,

1032
00:58:05.000 --> 00:58:10.039
<v Speaker 2>you know. Uh So the theme of you know, of

1033
00:58:10.639 --> 00:58:13.920
<v Speaker 2>developing your garden or running your biking clan, you know,

1034
00:58:15.159 --> 00:58:19.000
<v Speaker 2>you know. Uh, I think the theme is I don't

1035
00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:21.679
<v Speaker 2>know if it's important. It's certainly important to everybody, but

1036
00:58:21.800 --> 00:58:23.880
<v Speaker 2>I think it's important. It's certainly important to some of us,

1037
00:58:23.920 --> 00:58:25.760
<v Speaker 2>and it's very important to me. I love the theme

1038
00:58:25.800 --> 00:58:31.119
<v Speaker 2>of the game. It's very and I really enjoy the

1039
00:58:31.119 --> 00:58:34.599
<v Speaker 2>the aesthetics that have developed in gaming, you know, like

1040
00:58:34.679 --> 00:58:37.480
<v Speaker 2>it's basically a box of toys now, you know, and

1041
00:58:38.679 --> 00:58:43.760
<v Speaker 2>you know the beauty of tabletop games, you know, the

1042
00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:46.079
<v Speaker 2>higher end ones with lots of cool components and all

1043
00:58:46.159 --> 00:58:49.880
<v Speaker 2>that stuff like that. Yeah, I like that. It's nice.

1044
00:58:50.599 --> 00:58:52.320
<v Speaker 1>So I want to talk met about the future. So

1045
00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:55.360
<v Speaker 1>what are your plans for the future. As I know

1046
00:58:55.400 --> 00:58:58.960
<v Speaker 1>you've sold some of gen Con to our mutual friend

1047
00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:01.000
<v Speaker 1>Corey Thompson. Does that mean you're stepping back?

1048
00:59:02.360 --> 00:59:06.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I did. I retired from I haven't run Jencon

1049
00:59:07.039 --> 00:59:12.280
<v Speaker 2>directly for like a wow, fifteen years or stuff like that.

1050
00:59:12.360 --> 00:59:15.920
<v Speaker 2>So I for a long period of time, I was

1051
00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:20.960
<v Speaker 2>the chairperson of the board of directors, and which is

1052
00:59:21.039 --> 00:59:24.119
<v Speaker 2>there's for a long time four I had three other

1053
00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:27.760
<v Speaker 2>partners who are owners in the company, and so I am.

1054
00:59:29.199 --> 00:59:33.519
<v Speaker 2>But about a year ago I decided that I was

1055
00:59:33.599 --> 00:59:35.800
<v Speaker 2>going to step back and not even be the chairperson

1056
00:59:35.840 --> 00:59:40.000
<v Speaker 2>of the board anymore. And so Brian Lewis is doing that.

1057
00:59:40.039 --> 00:59:44.000
<v Speaker 2>He was I've known Brian forever. He was a general counsel,

1058
00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:46.800
<v Speaker 2>was the coast for back in the nineties for a

1059
00:59:46.880 --> 00:59:51.440
<v Speaker 2>while and stuff. So he is, he's chairing the board now.

1060
00:59:51.559 --> 00:59:55.280
<v Speaker 2>And I did sell some stock. My wife kind of

1061
00:59:55.440 --> 01:00:03.039
<v Speaker 2>suddenly decided that we were moving from a condominium which

1062
01:00:03.079 --> 01:00:08.000
<v Speaker 2>she owned uh in downtown Seattle, UH to to get

1063
01:00:08.039 --> 01:00:12.239
<v Speaker 2>out of the downtown area. And and so I said,

1064
01:00:12.280 --> 01:00:15.880
<v Speaker 2>well for moving out of downtown, I want a big house. Then,

1065
01:00:15.960 --> 01:00:18.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know, I loved I loved living downtown.

1066
01:00:18.400 --> 01:00:20.000
<v Speaker 2>The reality is living that now you have to live

1067
01:00:20.039 --> 01:00:23.199
<v Speaker 2>in a condominium. We're apartmenting. Right, So so if we're

1068
01:00:23.239 --> 01:00:25.239
<v Speaker 2>gonna if we're gonna go out in the neighborhood, I'm

1069
01:00:25.239 --> 01:00:29.079
<v Speaker 2>gonna lose the joy of being downtown. What how do

1070
01:00:29.159 --> 01:00:31.519
<v Speaker 2>I make this? What am we gonna get? You know? What?

1071
01:00:31.519 --> 01:00:33.719
<v Speaker 2>What is it? What is going to be the improvement

1072
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:37.519
<v Speaker 2>to offset the disappointment? And I for me, it was like, well, okay,

1073
01:00:37.519 --> 01:00:39.519
<v Speaker 2>if I if I can have a house, now I

1074
01:00:39.519 --> 01:00:41.119
<v Speaker 2>guess I guess we have to live in house. Let's

1075
01:00:41.119 --> 01:00:44.480
<v Speaker 2>make a big house. So yeah, so I sold about

1076
01:00:46.159 --> 01:00:50.000
<v Speaker 2>a quarter of my holdings in gen Con to uh

1077
01:00:50.199 --> 01:00:54.760
<v Speaker 2>Corey Thompson and John Peterson and use that to my house.

1078
01:00:55.320 --> 01:00:57.760
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, so we live in a house. And and

1079
01:00:58.079 --> 01:01:02.800
<v Speaker 2>I am even though I am the largest shareholder of

1080
01:01:02.840 --> 01:01:05.639
<v Speaker 2>gen Con, I just like, Okay, I don't want to

1081
01:01:06.400 --> 01:01:08.000
<v Speaker 2>I just I just want to think. I don't want

1082
01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:09.920
<v Speaker 2>to think that much about it anymore. I just really

1083
01:01:09.920 --> 01:01:13.039
<v Speaker 2>want to be able to well play more games.

1084
01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:20.719
<v Speaker 1>To be honest, I'd say, then, I think let's let's

1085
01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:24.400
<v Speaker 1>take modesty and put modesty in a box somewhere where

1086
01:01:24.440 --> 01:01:26.920
<v Speaker 1>it's not going to interrupt us for the next five minutes.

1087
01:01:27.320 --> 01:01:32.440
<v Speaker 1>When you think about your impact on the world of

1088
01:01:32.519 --> 01:01:35.000
<v Speaker 1>hobby games. How would you assess it?

1089
01:01:38.639 --> 01:01:45.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, I yeah, I know, I try. You asked

1090
01:01:45.039 --> 01:01:48.840
<v Speaker 2>me to put modesty aside. That's hard to do because

1091
01:01:48.880 --> 01:01:53.599
<v Speaker 2>I really don't see myself as I see myself more

1092
01:01:53.719 --> 01:01:56.320
<v Speaker 2>lucky than good if you you know. I mean, I

1093
01:01:56.639 --> 01:01:59.840
<v Speaker 2>know it's a horrible thing to say, but you know,

1094
01:02:00.119 --> 01:02:02.239
<v Speaker 2>none of the things I've done would have happened if

1095
01:02:02.280 --> 01:02:05.559
<v Speaker 2>it would have been for Richard Garfield designing Magic the Gathering.

1096
01:02:05.679 --> 01:02:08.239
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know, like, let's come on, you gotta

1097
01:02:08.280 --> 01:02:13.320
<v Speaker 2>be honest now, I'm I take pride and uh and

1098
01:02:13.760 --> 01:02:15.679
<v Speaker 2>I feel like I was a good steward for that game,

1099
01:02:15.920 --> 01:02:20.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, like like he you know, the idea for

1100
01:02:21.000 --> 01:02:25.079
<v Speaker 2>the game came based on a conversation he and I had,

1101
01:02:25.159 --> 01:02:28.840
<v Speaker 2>so I was there. I contributed to the thought process

1102
01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:33.119
<v Speaker 2>that that to whatever foundation of thinking had to happen

1103
01:02:33.239 --> 01:02:35.639
<v Speaker 2>for him to have the eureka idea to create Magic Gather.

1104
01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:38.920
<v Speaker 2>So I did contribute to that. I didn't know it

1105
01:02:38.960 --> 01:02:43.599
<v Speaker 2>at the time, but I've learned that designers work best

1106
01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:47.920
<v Speaker 2>if you give them a box to work inside of.

1107
01:02:48.360 --> 01:02:50.440
<v Speaker 1>Limitation is vital for creativity.

1108
01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:53.599
<v Speaker 2>I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, you have to I

1109
01:02:53.599 --> 01:02:55.559
<v Speaker 2>didn't know that, but you have to have when you

1110
01:02:55.639 --> 01:02:58.159
<v Speaker 2>have some parameters, you know. So by telling him I

1111
01:02:58.199 --> 01:03:01.199
<v Speaker 2>wanted a card game and it just had to be

1112
01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:04.599
<v Speaker 2>cards and nothing else, and that I thought I could

1113
01:03:04.639 --> 01:03:08.239
<v Speaker 2>get good deals on fantasy, science fiction and horror art

1114
01:03:09.440 --> 01:03:14.360
<v Speaker 2>because I was a participant in these. I would go

1115
01:03:14.400 --> 01:03:18.960
<v Speaker 2>to these fantasy, science fiction, horror conventions, literary conventions, and

1116
01:03:19.000 --> 01:03:23.039
<v Speaker 2>at a staple at these conventions was art shows. And

1117
01:03:23.519 --> 01:03:26.239
<v Speaker 2>I recognized that there was a lot of art being

1118
01:03:26.320 --> 01:03:28.880
<v Speaker 2>made and they had nowhere to sell it, really because

1119
01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:32.719
<v Speaker 2>there was a very limited market of people of businesses

1120
01:03:32.800 --> 01:03:35.400
<v Speaker 2>buying this type of art. There was you know, books

1121
01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:40.960
<v Speaker 2>like TSR and there were people publishing books, but you know,

1122
01:03:41.000 --> 01:03:43.639
<v Speaker 2>so covers of books, but even RPGs mostly just to

1123
01:03:43.679 --> 01:03:48.280
<v Speaker 2>cover mostly interior stuff was all black and white. So

1124
01:03:48.280 --> 01:03:55.960
<v Speaker 2>so Richard designs magic. And I'm flattered that he don't

1125
01:03:56.000 --> 01:03:58.719
<v Speaker 2>know how much of his obligation, feeling like he was

1126
01:03:58.760 --> 01:04:02.159
<v Speaker 2>obligated to let me published it since I contributed to

1127
01:04:02.199 --> 01:04:06.039
<v Speaker 2>the thought process there, or maybe he saw something in

1128
01:04:06.079 --> 01:04:10.239
<v Speaker 2>me that uh that he thought well, because I certainly

1129
01:04:10.280 --> 01:04:15.239
<v Speaker 2>wasn't an experienced businessman at the time, but I think

1130
01:04:15.280 --> 01:04:20.239
<v Speaker 2>he so. I So I always felt like I had

1131
01:04:20.280 --> 01:04:23.280
<v Speaker 2>to prove that he made a good choice. That was

1132
01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:28.519
<v Speaker 2>a driving force that I didn't want to disappoint Richard.

1133
01:04:28.639 --> 01:04:31.239
<v Speaker 2>I really wanted him to feel like he made a

1134
01:04:31.239 --> 01:04:33.679
<v Speaker 2>good choice by bringing that game to me. And so

1135
01:04:34.639 --> 01:04:39.199
<v Speaker 2>if I did anything well, it was I took that

1136
01:04:39.280 --> 01:04:43.280
<v Speaker 2>responsibility seriously and was at least competent enough of a

1137
01:04:43.320 --> 01:04:48.719
<v Speaker 2>businessman that that we published, we raised the money, got

1138
01:04:48.800 --> 01:04:53.400
<v Speaker 2>it out into distribution, and managed our way through several

1139
01:04:53.599 --> 01:04:59.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, the inevitable rocky situations that happened in the

1140
01:04:59.360 --> 01:05:01.880
<v Speaker 2>you know as in the tail of that, you know,

1141
01:05:02.440 --> 01:05:07.039
<v Speaker 2>like the market glutting and you know problem in international distribution,

1142
01:05:07.880 --> 01:05:13.519
<v Speaker 2>organized play, you know, repositioning the brand from I always

1143
01:05:13.559 --> 01:05:17.360
<v Speaker 2>felt that one of the proudest moments I had on

1144
01:05:17.440 --> 01:05:20.000
<v Speaker 2>behalf of the company I was managing. Like any company

1145
01:05:20.000 --> 01:05:24.960
<v Speaker 2>I've run, where like this a company does under my leadership, Sure,

1146
01:05:25.840 --> 01:05:28.400
<v Speaker 2>but us as a company get together and do something

1147
01:05:28.480 --> 01:05:31.960
<v Speaker 2>really difficult as a company not relying on just some

1148
01:05:32.039 --> 01:05:37.599
<v Speaker 2>creative smart was when we repositioned the brand of Magic

1149
01:05:37.639 --> 01:05:41.239
<v Speaker 2>the gathering from being a primarily a collectible and a

1150
01:05:41.320 --> 01:05:46.840
<v Speaker 2>speculation where people are speculating product to a organized play,

1151
01:05:46.840 --> 01:05:51.079
<v Speaker 2>a mental sport. The idea that we're going to make

1152
01:05:51.079 --> 01:05:52.679
<v Speaker 2>this game about competition.

1153
01:05:52.920 --> 01:05:58.159
<v Speaker 1>And I guess having elite players is when I think

1154
01:05:58.199 --> 01:06:00.079
<v Speaker 1>about Magic, I think about the Magic churn, I think

1155
01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:02.519
<v Speaker 1>about these these world champions. I mean that must have

1156
01:06:02.559 --> 01:06:05.480
<v Speaker 1>been wonderful and weird at the same time, right, yep.

1157
01:06:05.800 --> 01:06:08.679
<v Speaker 2>And this is where my proud the thing I'm most

1158
01:06:08.679 --> 01:06:11.480
<v Speaker 2>proud of is that that was a conscious decision. It

1159
01:06:11.559 --> 01:06:15.800
<v Speaker 2>was we hired a guy that had a sports marketing background,

1160
01:06:17.199 --> 01:06:20.880
<v Speaker 2>and we said, we want to make Magic an intellectual sport,

1161
01:06:22.119 --> 01:06:26.800
<v Speaker 2>and so he helped us design competition structures, you know,

1162
01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:29.440
<v Speaker 2>like the Pro Tour and the Grand Prixs and the

1163
01:06:29.559 --> 01:06:35.079
<v Speaker 2>pre releases and and organizing the ranking systems and all

1164
01:06:35.079 --> 01:06:37.119
<v Speaker 2>this stuff like that. You know, we had to build

1165
01:06:37.159 --> 01:06:40.440
<v Speaker 2>all that from from scratch, and none of that relied

1166
01:06:40.480 --> 01:06:44.119
<v Speaker 2>on Richard Garfield being a genius, which is what magically gathering.

1167
01:06:44.599 --> 01:06:50.320
<v Speaker 2>So I feel like if I you know, forced modesty

1168
01:06:50.360 --> 01:06:52.239
<v Speaker 2>in the box, I think I feel the best about

1169
01:06:52.880 --> 01:06:56.639
<v Speaker 2>is is that moment actually taking taking this game that

1170
01:06:56.719 --> 01:07:01.000
<v Speaker 2>Richard did, and then with his guidance all stead. I mean,

1171
01:07:01.079 --> 01:07:03.280
<v Speaker 2>Richard loved the idea. Don't get me wrong. It wasn't

1172
01:07:03.360 --> 01:07:08.519
<v Speaker 2>something I did without Richard and Richard and Scapphlias Rick

1173
01:07:08.679 --> 01:07:12.840
<v Speaker 2>Errans contributed mightily to this whole thing. We as a company,

1174
01:07:13.360 --> 01:07:17.000
<v Speaker 2>uh did that at the moment, you know, and I was,

1175
01:07:17.119 --> 01:07:20.119
<v Speaker 2>and I'm The other thing is I'm glad I recognized

1176
01:07:20.119 --> 01:07:22.719
<v Speaker 2>the potential in gen Con and and acquired it. So

1177
01:07:23.159 --> 01:07:25.760
<v Speaker 2>I think those are what I'm most proud of, those

1178
01:07:25.760 --> 01:07:26.519
<v Speaker 2>two things.

1179
01:07:27.480 --> 01:07:31.360
<v Speaker 1>So your last game, then, is is optimistic that you'll

1180
01:07:31.400 --> 01:07:34.920
<v Speaker 1>have electricity in the in the apocalypse. But this is

1181
01:07:34.960 --> 01:07:38.039
<v Speaker 1>a video game, and this is Sid Maya's Sieve six.

1182
01:07:38.760 --> 01:07:44.960
<v Speaker 1>So how important is Sieve? Do you think two analogue games?

1183
01:07:47.000 --> 01:07:51.719
<v Speaker 2>How important civilization in general? Specifically said my civilization?

1184
01:07:51.920 --> 01:07:53.239
<v Speaker 1>Well, sidmya civilization.

1185
01:07:53.480 --> 01:07:55.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Well, I don't think it's important analogy games at all.

1186
01:07:57.199 --> 01:07:59.599
<v Speaker 2>I mean yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean

1187
01:07:59.719 --> 01:08:01.519
<v Speaker 2>because I mean there's lots of video games and it

1188
01:08:01.519 --> 01:08:03.800
<v Speaker 2>has some effect on analog games, right, but I don't

1189
01:08:03.920 --> 01:08:06.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. If that game didn't exist, with the

1190
01:08:06.800 --> 01:08:08.960
<v Speaker 2>world of table dot games be any different.

1191
01:08:09.679 --> 01:08:13.280
<v Speaker 1>Well, my my favorite game of all time wouldn't exist.

1192
01:08:13.400 --> 01:08:17.079
<v Speaker 1>So for me, it's it's very significant because through the

1193
01:08:17.479 --> 01:08:22.039
<v Speaker 1>through the ages was the designer decided that it was

1194
01:08:22.079 --> 01:08:25.720
<v Speaker 1>going to be a board game implementation of.

1195
01:08:25.760 --> 01:08:32.239
<v Speaker 2>Save Oh the CGS game exactly. I love that game.

1196
01:08:32.960 --> 01:08:36.079
<v Speaker 2>That's an amazing game. That's a hard game. That is

1197
01:08:36.119 --> 01:08:37.640
<v Speaker 2>a really hard game to play.

1198
01:08:37.720 --> 01:08:41.039
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean I don't play it well, but I

1199
01:08:41.119 --> 01:08:42.159
<v Speaker 1>enjoy it when I play it.

1200
01:08:42.319 --> 01:08:44.399
<v Speaker 2>Okay, then I'd be willing to play with you. Sometimes

1201
01:08:46.359 --> 01:08:49.920
<v Speaker 2>I have I'm good friends with Nate heyes, who's as

1202
01:08:49.960 --> 01:08:52.000
<v Speaker 2>a long listed design credits and he loves that game.

1203
01:08:52.039 --> 01:08:54.520
<v Speaker 2>And it's just like, well, okay, in all fairness, doesn't

1204
01:08:54.520 --> 01:08:56.479
<v Speaker 2>matter what game we're playing. We have a joke that

1205
01:08:56.520 --> 01:08:58.720
<v Speaker 2>when Nate comes over to play, the rest of us

1206
01:08:58.760 --> 01:09:01.000
<v Speaker 2>are all playing for second place, competing.

1207
01:09:01.119 --> 01:09:04.039
<v Speaker 1>I know some people like that, yeah yeah, yeah.

1208
01:09:05.479 --> 01:09:08.840
<v Speaker 2>Well okay, then I could see that if there wasn't

1209
01:09:08.840 --> 01:09:11.920
<v Speaker 2>a Sidmyer civilization, maybe there wouldn't be through the ages,

1210
01:09:11.920 --> 01:09:16.359
<v Speaker 2>and that would be horrible. But I think also the

1211
01:09:16.359 --> 01:09:18.520
<v Speaker 2>other way around, right, you know, there's always been a

1212
01:09:18.560 --> 01:09:20.680
<v Speaker 2>little I'm not up on all the gossip, but I've

1213
01:09:20.680 --> 01:09:23.199
<v Speaker 2>never met sid Meyer. But you know, there were always,

1214
01:09:23.560 --> 01:09:28.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, sort of accusations that that sid Meyer's civilization

1215
01:09:29.039 --> 01:09:32.880
<v Speaker 2>was a derivation, if you will, of the old Avalon

1216
01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:38.479
<v Speaker 2>Hill right civilization game. From the sixties seventies or something

1217
01:09:38.479 --> 01:09:38.800
<v Speaker 2>like that.

1218
01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:41.840
<v Speaker 1>I think that's I think that's that's no longer a rumor.

1219
01:09:41.880 --> 01:09:44.000
<v Speaker 1>I think that's fairly established fact at this point.

1220
01:09:44.199 --> 01:09:46.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And I think also nobody cares this, right, right,

1221
01:09:46.800 --> 01:09:49.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean, because that's just the way games work. Everybody

1222
01:09:49.800 --> 01:09:52.720
<v Speaker 2>designs games based on other people's games. You know, Richard

1223
01:09:52.840 --> 01:09:55.640
<v Speaker 2>Garfield didn't care that other people were designing trading card

1224
01:09:55.680 --> 01:09:57.920
<v Speaker 2>games that looked a lot like Magic Gathering, you know,

1225
01:09:58.520 --> 01:09:59.520
<v Speaker 2>didn't care, right.

1226
01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:03.399
<v Speaker 1>That's why I think gaming mechanisms shouldn't be copyrighted, right,

1227
01:10:03.439 --> 01:10:06.720
<v Speaker 1>because it allows the creativity of the old industry.

1228
01:10:07.279 --> 01:10:09.079
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think copyrights are fine. I think it's patents

1229
01:10:09.119 --> 01:10:16.560
<v Speaker 2>that are dangerous. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's uh yeah, I

1230
01:10:16.600 --> 01:10:20.399
<v Speaker 2>think even though I mean, we did patent certain aspects

1231
01:10:20.439 --> 01:10:22.960
<v Speaker 2>of Magic the Gathering, but you know, we were never

1232
01:10:23.119 --> 01:10:25.199
<v Speaker 2>we were never jerks about it. We never sued any

1233
01:10:25.239 --> 01:10:27.640
<v Speaker 2>of the The only people that we enforced the baton

1234
01:10:27.720 --> 01:10:32.960
<v Speaker 2>with was with Konami and Pokemon. But yeah, no, I

1235
01:10:33.000 --> 01:10:37.359
<v Speaker 2>am uh uh yeah. I think it's an interesting point. Okay, So,

1236
01:10:37.600 --> 01:10:40.399
<v Speaker 2>uh you know, at sid Meyer Civilization, I think it's

1237
01:10:40.399 --> 01:10:43.039
<v Speaker 2>a great franchise. I don't play many video games. I

1238
01:10:43.079 --> 01:10:46.239
<v Speaker 2>don't like them. I'm much better play with a human opponent.

1239
01:10:46.319 --> 01:10:49.800
<v Speaker 2>But I do like having a game where, at some point,

1240
01:10:50.159 --> 01:10:51.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, if you're feeling it is to play a game,

1241
01:10:51.760 --> 01:10:53.880
<v Speaker 2>and there's nobody around to play with it. So okay,

1242
01:10:54.000 --> 01:10:57.159
<v Speaker 2>you play, But to me it is the last resort there's,

1243
01:10:57.960 --> 01:11:01.760
<v Speaker 2>you know. And but I love I love the genre

1244
01:11:01.840 --> 01:11:05.000
<v Speaker 2>civililding games. I just I love that genre. Games through

1245
01:11:05.039 --> 01:11:08.600
<v Speaker 2>the Ages is a great game, the old Avalon Hills civilization,

1246
01:11:09.079 --> 01:11:12.399
<v Speaker 2>And to do it electronically, that's just a wonderful fantasy

1247
01:11:12.479 --> 01:11:14.319
<v Speaker 2>to start off, as in the Stony Age, I got

1248
01:11:14.359 --> 01:11:18.520
<v Speaker 2>my settler, got a warrior, build a city and start

1249
01:11:18.920 --> 01:11:21.239
<v Speaker 2>build a monument, you know, and build more warriors and

1250
01:11:21.600 --> 01:11:24.920
<v Speaker 2>go out and conquer them. And I think, I, you know,

1251
01:11:25.000 --> 01:11:28.359
<v Speaker 2>I and I also debated, well should I choose six

1252
01:11:28.520 --> 01:11:32.800
<v Speaker 2>or seven or so five or whatever? You know, and

1253
01:11:33.239 --> 01:11:35.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, I could have chosen a different one, but

1254
01:11:35.119 --> 01:11:40.920
<v Speaker 2>I think, uh, there's so much replay value with all

1255
01:11:40.960 --> 01:11:43.039
<v Speaker 2>the different civilizations you can build, and all the different

1256
01:11:43.359 --> 01:11:48.760
<v Speaker 2>uh map types and slower long and which uh uh

1257
01:11:49.039 --> 01:11:51.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, which civilization you're playing, and all that sort

1258
01:11:51.199 --> 01:11:53.359
<v Speaker 2>of stuff like that. Oh, in different types of victory

1259
01:11:53.359 --> 01:11:56.159
<v Speaker 2>conditions to diplomatic or science and stuff like that. I

1260
01:11:56.199 --> 01:12:01.439
<v Speaker 2>think there's just this huge, uh array of different ways

1261
01:12:01.439 --> 01:12:04.039
<v Speaker 2>you can play this one game. So throughout most of

1262
01:12:04.079 --> 01:12:06.319
<v Speaker 2>the games, except for FEAV and all the other games

1263
01:12:06.359 --> 01:12:09.600
<v Speaker 2>I've chosen, I was rating highly at the criteria of

1264
01:12:10.079 --> 01:12:12.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, how long am I going to be in

1265
01:12:12.399 --> 01:12:16.279
<v Speaker 2>the cabin? What's the replay value of this game?

1266
01:12:17.720 --> 01:12:19.840
<v Speaker 1>So I've got one more question for you. So you're

1267
01:12:19.880 --> 01:12:22.600
<v Speaker 1>heading out of Seattle towards the cabin, and you go

1268
01:12:22.720 --> 01:12:24.520
<v Speaker 1>at a corner and the back door of the car

1269
01:12:24.600 --> 01:12:28.279
<v Speaker 1>flies open. Four of the games fly out, Dinah, Ravine

1270
01:12:28.359 --> 01:12:31.720
<v Speaker 1>into a river, and I swept away to posterity. Which

1271
01:12:31.760 --> 01:12:33.439
<v Speaker 1>game do you hope is sitting on the backseat of

1272
01:12:33.479 --> 01:12:33.840
<v Speaker 1>the car.

1273
01:12:35.039 --> 01:12:38.439
<v Speaker 2>I really go with Peace for Owen because out of

1274
01:12:38.479 --> 01:12:40.359
<v Speaker 2>all those games, that's the one my wife will play,

1275
01:12:40.479 --> 01:12:43.720
<v Speaker 2>and I am I'm certain I would not have left

1276
01:12:43.720 --> 01:12:45.319
<v Speaker 2>Seattle without her in the car with me.

1277
01:12:46.840 --> 01:12:50.359
<v Speaker 1>So I guess you're not a very big social media guy.

1278
01:12:50.399 --> 01:12:52.560
<v Speaker 1>But if you ever do post anything, if you ever

1279
01:12:52.560 --> 01:12:55.640
<v Speaker 1>write articles or anything like that, how can people see

1280
01:12:55.680 --> 01:12:56.479
<v Speaker 1>what you're up to.

1281
01:12:58.720 --> 01:13:03.520
<v Speaker 2>These days? Really, I'm primarily only active on my personal

1282
01:13:03.640 --> 01:13:10.800
<v Speaker 2>Facebook page, so I'm Peter Adguson on Facebook, so follow

1283
01:13:10.840 --> 01:13:14.439
<v Speaker 2>me there. That's that's about it. I also once in

1284
01:13:14.520 --> 01:13:16.199
<v Speaker 2>a while I did start a newsletter a couple of

1285
01:13:16.279 --> 01:13:19.880
<v Speaker 2>years ago sent but I haven't I don't use it

1286
01:13:19.960 --> 01:13:21.760
<v Speaker 2>very often, but I do have a newsletter. So to

1287
01:13:21.800 --> 01:13:24.760
<v Speaker 2>reach out to me on Facebook messengering, it's I give

1288
01:13:24.800 --> 01:13:27.439
<v Speaker 2>you the way to subscribe to that.

1289
01:13:28.399 --> 01:13:31.399
<v Speaker 1>Excellent Well, Peter Atkinson, thank you very much.

1290
01:13:31.920 --> 01:13:33.880
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, thank you Ben, thanks for inviting me on.

1291
01:13:34.199 --> 01:13:36.000
<v Speaker 1>You can support the show in many ways. You can

1292
01:13:36.000 --> 01:13:38.279
<v Speaker 1>tell a friend, you can talk about it on social media.

1293
01:13:38.319 --> 01:13:40.279
<v Speaker 1>You can talk about it in your own blog, podcast,

1294
01:13:40.359 --> 01:13:42.319
<v Speaker 1>or video. You can support it directly by going to

1295
01:13:42.319 --> 01:13:44.880
<v Speaker 1>Patreon dot com, forward slash five gfd for a rolling

1296
01:13:44.920 --> 01:13:47.439
<v Speaker 1>donation or for a one off donation hitting the papal

1297
01:13:47.439 --> 01:13:49.479
<v Speaker 1>link at the bottom of the website five g fd

1298
01:13:49.640 --> 01:13:52.239
<v Speaker 1>dot com. It's these donations to keep the show going.

1299
01:13:52.520 --> 01:13:54.640
<v Speaker 1>You can join the best discording gaming by going to

1300
01:13:54.640 --> 01:13:58.039
<v Speaker 1>five gfd dot com and clicking the button. Also, if

1301
01:13:58.079 --> 01:13:59.359
<v Speaker 1>you want to say something nice about the show, she

1302
01:13:59.479 --> 01:14:01.600
<v Speaker 1>want to say something horrible about the show, in contact

1303
01:14:01.720 --> 01:14:05.199
<v Speaker 1>me at five Games for Doomsday gmail dot com. And

1304
01:14:05.239 --> 01:14:08.239
<v Speaker 1>if I've succeeded in dancing to the falling bombs and

1305
01:14:08.359 --> 01:14:11.479
<v Speaker 1>gufforing at all of it. I'll see you in two

1306
01:14:11.520 --> 01:14:32.079
<v Speaker 1>weeks for another five games at Doomsday