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Speaker 1: You're listening to the paranorl UK Radio network and this

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is six Degrees of John Keel.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the six Degrees of John Kill podcast.

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I'm your host, Barbara Fisher. This evening, I'm talking with Alexandra.

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We've spoken with her before, early on, fairly early on.

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She is a shamanic practitioner and an anthropologist, and tonight

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we're going to talk about the similarities between alien abduction

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scenarios and experiencers and shamanic initiation among shamanic practitioners. Hello, Hi, Barbara,

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it's good to see you again.

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Speaker 1: You too, Thanks for having me back.

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Speaker 2: No worries. Now, if anybody hears any like little dog chortles,

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it's because Alexander has a really cute dog who sometimes

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wants to add her you know, feelings on the matter.

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So if it happens, it happens, don't worry about it.

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So the reason I brought this topic up with you

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is I was I went underwent shamanic training with one

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of your same teachers, and so we have that in common.

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And you know, alien abduction is something that I of

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course know about, but for a long time I just

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kind of went it's over there. I'm not going to

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look at it, you know. So, I mean, I've read

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Whitley Strieber's book Communion and the second book, Transformation, in

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a couple of his other books. I did read some

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of Bud Hopkins' books, but I was I was very

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distraught when I read the transcript of some of his

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some of his work, because he was asking under hypnosis,

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which he was an artist so probably shouldn't have been

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hypnotizing anybody, but under hypnosis he was asking leading questions,

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the same exact leading questions that I was taught as

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a journalist to kind of ask and sort of manipulate

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a CAGY source into saying what you knew. They knew

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but they didn't want to say. So I was like,

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you're basically giving them information and they're spouting it back

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at you. That's not that's not no. So for the

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longest time, I pretty much you know, oh, that's the

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X Files thing. I'm not gonna you know, bother about it.

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I didn't read much about it. I didn't pay attention

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to John Mack. Mostly, I just didn't read about it.

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And fairly recently within the past year, a friend suggested,

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he's like, you know, you really should read some of

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the more interesting stuff. He said, you know, because I

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agree with you on Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs. He's like,

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they're no. He was like, but there's there's some cases

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that are really really unique and really strange. And he said,

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and I think with your with your experience with shamanic work,

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it's gonna sound familiar. And so that's what I did,

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and then I started seeing things going oh oh, oh, okay.

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So when you when you talk about shamanic initiation or

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shamanic journeying, can you explain kind of what that entails

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to the listeners.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's a big question. Sometimes I just tell people

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when they ask me what it's like, I'm like, have

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you seen the movie Started Away?

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Speaker 1: Because a lot like that. So let me see, what

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would you like me to.

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Speaker 3: Approach it from the point of view of my personal

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experience or sort of the anthrothological literature on shamanic initiation.

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Speaker 2: Go ahead and start with your experience, and then you know,

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we can kind of go well, as Mercia Elliott says,

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or as Michael Harner says, these are the steps, and

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then we can go right.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So you know, like you. I didn't pay a

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lot of attention to the UFO abduction stuff either, and.

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Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to learning more about it tonight because

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I do listen to all the right podcasts. I listened

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to this one and Strange Familiars and Where did the

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Row Go? So you know, I hear people's account there.

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But when I was a kid, I was really really

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scared of UFOs and aliens up.

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Speaker 1: And so I just didn't want to go there.

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Speaker 3: I was super into fairies and folklore and mythology and

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spirits and ghosts and all of that, but I was

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scared to death of aliens. So anyway, I come from

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a family that on my mom's side basically has done

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a lot of cunning cunning craft type stuff, and so

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when I was a kid, it was always accepted that

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people in my family had the ability to you know,

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see spirits or have you know, quote unquote psychic abilities

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or something. So I was never poo pooed for any

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of that. But my mom didn't want me to go

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there because over time, every generation it had sort of

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gotten more and more something that you keep quiet about.

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And because I also was a.

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Speaker 1: Major nerd, my mom was like, follow the academic path

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because that is a safe route, and.

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Speaker 3: I did, and I went all the way through to

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the PhD. And I never had any sort of a

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plan be and when I got well into my.

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Speaker 1: Graduate school period, I.

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Speaker 3: Started to get really depressed. And when I started to

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bring me out of that depression was when I when

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it occurred to me that the things that I had

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started to think about as like flaws in myself, such

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as being very sensitive and open to things, and you

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know that actually these could be strengths, just in a

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different context. And I started to consider that although I

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really loved the academic work, and I love our anthropology

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and archaeology, and I'm really passionate about that, but I

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started to think, maybe I need to find some outlet

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for this other side of me, because it wasn't allowed

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to come out and play within academia.

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Speaker 1: And so then I.

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Speaker 3: Well, just as I was about to finish up, my

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mom got really sick, and so I hurried up and

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finished my dissertation defense and finished writing the dissertation, and

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I moved back.

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Speaker 1: To California where my mom was living.

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Speaker 3: To take care of her. And at the time, I thought,

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you know, it looked like she might have, you know,

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weeks or months to live or something. She was in

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intensive care at the beginning, but fortunately she ended up

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living for another four years. And I was her giver

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during that time. And I know this sounds like I'm

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not addressing the questions, but but I am.

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Speaker 2: You are, You'll get there.

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Speaker 3: Being a caregiver is incredibly stressful. And it was like

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twenty four seven, three sixty five, and there was this

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constant like is today going to be the day that

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she dies? Kind of thing, and my mom were very

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and I were very close, so you know, I was

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really I'm so grateful to have had that time, but

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it made me lose a bunch of hair, honestly.

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Speaker 1: I mean it was very stressful. So I started meditating

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to try and cope with the stress.

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Speaker 3: And when I was meditating, I started having these spontaneous

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I guess you could call them sort of visions, but

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they weren't with.

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Speaker 1: My physical eyes. They were with like my mind high.

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Speaker 3: But they were not something that I deliberately called up.

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Like when we talk about daydreaming, you know, that's we

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usually imagine something where somebody is fantasizing or they're deliberately

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imagining something. And this was more like a dream and

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that it came spontaneously, but I still had my waking consciousness,

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so it was a lot like a very lucid dream

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when the stuff that I was seeing was really weird.

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And little by little I started to these creatures and

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beings that would appear, and sometimes they would also show

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up in.

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Speaker 1: My dreams, like my sleeping dreams. They'd say things to me,

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and they would usually turn out to be very wise

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in the long run, and.

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Speaker 3: They didn't start out by you know, demanding anything. Oftentimes

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it would just they would just sort of show up

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and leave me wondering what the heck was that. I

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actually had a friend when I was in grad school.

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I mean, we're still friends, but when we were in

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grad school together, she did a workshop on shamanic journey

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and her area of focus is Anglo Saxon, England, and

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so she for her this you know, related to her

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research and that she was doing, and so she told

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me about the experience and she kind of, you know,

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she just holds space for it, kind of like, well,

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that was really interesting. I don't know what to make

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of it, but that was fun and cool. I couldn't

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do it with her because I had to teach at

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the time they were doing it. Well, anyway, my research

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was on my dissertation research was on mirrors in basically

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all across temperate Eurasia, so from Britain to Japan and

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in late prehistory pretty much.

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Speaker 1: And so.

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Speaker 3: If you've read any of the ethnographic accounts or like

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you were saying, Eliotta, if you've read any of those

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works on shamanism, you will have read about how Central

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Asian and Siberian shamans often have mirrors as tools and

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as part of their regalia. So as I was doing

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this research that I was also doing research into shamanism.

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Speaker 1: You know, related specifically to SMRs.

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Speaker 3: Well, so when these spontaneous things started happening, there was

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a part of my.

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Speaker 1: Mind that was like, this looks a lot like you know.

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Speaker 3: Some of those accounts that I've read where you know,

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people start getting a call from spirits, But that can't

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be happening to me, I mean, not a little.

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Speaker 1: Old man so up with it.

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Speaker 3: Even after my mom passed away, I was still meditating

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and I didn't I didn't try to discourage these things

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or anything, because I was curious about them, and I

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at one point I had a classic shamanic journey happened during.

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Speaker 1: One of these.

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Speaker 3: So I saw this hole in the ground at the

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foot of a tree, and I knew I was supposed

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to go into that hole, but it was dark and scary,

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and I said, I just spontaneously said, who's whol guide

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me down this hole?

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Speaker 1: And this guide appeared and said I will, and we

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go down the hole and then it.

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Speaker 3: Was full of all kinds of just really weird stuff and.

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, so that's what that's like.

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Speaker 3: And again, you know, this thing of like going through

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a hole into the earth that takes you down into

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the lower world.

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Speaker 1: That is just a classic testbook kind of experience. And

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then meanwhile I started having.

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Speaker 3: Spontaneous dreams and appearances of a a person who could

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shape shift but basically appeared like a hag, kind of

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you know, your classic fairy tale hag. And she would

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tell me things that you know, turned out to be true,

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and she wouldn't tell.

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Speaker 1: Me who she was for years. She made me work

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for that.

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Speaker 3: And then at the same time, I started getting sick,

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and it was you know, your basic chronic illness type thing.

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You know, it's pains, trouble sleeping, exhaustion is just really bad.

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Conic fatigue went to the doctor. Nobody could diagnose it.

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Mostly they weren't even really interested in trying. Honestly. There

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was a lot of just kind of like shrug, well,

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you know, everybody's tired, Like, yeah, everybody's tired, but most

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people don't find one flight of stairs and then have

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to lie down for a while, especially when in their thirties,

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you know.

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Speaker 1: And so.

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Speaker 3: At some point, again there's this part of my mind

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that's going you know, this sounds a lot like that

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whole thing where.

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Speaker 1: You get sick, you get the call from the spirits,

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and then you get sick and nobody can fix it,

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and hmm, what do you think about that? I'm like,

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I don't know, but that can't be happening to me.

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And just when I finally.

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Speaker 3: Was sort of coming around to like, there, this is

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way too much coincidence to just be I think this

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actually is happening to me, my cousin said to me, Hey,

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I'm gonna take this workshop, this like shamanic workshop. Do

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you want to do this with me? And I was like, yeah,

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I think I better. And so that was how I

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connected with the teacher that we have in commons and

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since then I've done the full apprenticeship and completed that.

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So it was just kind of funny because if I

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didn't have that anthropological background, I probably wouldn't have known

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where to file this information, so to speak. And so

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when this happens to people who don't have that background,

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I can imagine it being even more traumatic. I mean,

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getting chronically ill is for.

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Speaker 1: That to begin with. But I feel I was.

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Speaker 3: Very lucky because I had a way of contextualizing, and

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I I also I did my grad work in Minnesota,

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and there's a large long community in the Twin Cities

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and they still have practicing shamanic traditions, continuous traditions, and you.

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Speaker 1: Know, I had friends who there. You know, they would

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have to excuse their students from exams because it would

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be like, oh, you know, my brother's going through his

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shamanic insues.

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Speaker 3: Our illnesses of the family have to be there. So

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that was like a thing that happened. So I was

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aware that this, you know, it's still a real thing that.

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Speaker 1: Is still happening to people all over the world all

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the time.

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Speaker 2: No, it does, it makes it makes perfect sense. And uh,

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one of the one of the ways. I've looked at

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the commonalities of shamanic practice or initiation and spontaneous UFO

251
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abduction experiences, because of course these are processes. It's not

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just a one and done. Usually it's a continual communication

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with a non human intelligence. One of the things that

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I think, particularly in the Western world, is most of

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us don't have a living shaman, living shamanic tradition to

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point to look at understand see. I mean, we don't

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even have movies about it so much in the West.

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I mean there's a few, but mostly no, there really

259
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isn't you have been and pieces, you have some folklore.

260
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How many people actually study that? Not very many. But

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I feel almost like, you know, we did our best

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to get rid of those practices because they were quote

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unquote primitive, and we were all scientific and materialists and

264
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we're way too logical, so we don't need that. We're

265
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all you know, the Christian Church tells you this, this,

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and this is true. There it is boom cut off,

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done and to the point where, now you know, atheism

268
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is more Western than you know Church anymore. So we

269
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kind of just shut off our spirits. And you know,

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if you have traditions with communication with spirits and then

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you cut it off. That doesn't mean the spirits are

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going to go away. And if you even if you

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don't believe in them, they're not going to go away. Yes. Yes,

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It's like I don't believe in Bigfoot. Well Bigfoot believes

275
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in you, buddy, and he just walked in front of

276
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your car. It's like, you know, what do you say

277
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when you have just you know, a normal person suddenly

278
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wake up and there's these little guys with you know,

279
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big heads and big eyes and a bright light.

280
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Speaker 1: What do you?

281
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Speaker 2: What do you do? There's no context for that. And

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that's that's where when I really started looking at some

283
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of the more unusual experiences, I could find the threads

284
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that went with my grmonic experience and other people's shamanic

285
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experiences and go, oh, wait a minute, wait a minute,

286
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something is happening here. Uh So, one of the things

287
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that I just saw that was really interesting is there's

288
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a folklorist called Thomas Bullard does great work, and he's

289
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done a lot of comparative folklore with UFOs and UFO abduction. Essentially,

290
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he thinks of it as an emergent folklore that describes

291
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something that's older than what we think it is, and

292
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he says that UFO experiences have these these stages in

293
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common generally not all the time. But there's the stage

294
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of being in captive, captivated or captured and you so

295
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you're abducted, there's an examination, and there's physical procedures that's

296
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often where you get the implants, or there's surgeries that

297
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are done, or psychic surgery or sexual contact of some sort.

298
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Then there's a conference where they talk with you. And

299
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this isn't all happening in the same instance, it's sort

300
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of a it's steps. Then they give you a tour

301
00:22:28,039 --> 00:22:34,799
of their quote unquote ship, which sometimes is overtly made

302
00:22:34,839 --> 00:22:37,160
to be like a ship, but in other cases. There's

303
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,640
a really famous case with Streeber near the end of

304
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,559
his first book where he talks about going into this

305
00:22:45,519 --> 00:22:49,079
into the craft and it was dark and it was dank,

306
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and it was damp, and it smelled funny and it

307
00:22:52,079 --> 00:23:00,359
smelled kind of like dirt, and I was like, dude, dude,

308
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:06,279
that's the underworld, dude. But yeah, so you get a tour,

309
00:23:06,799 --> 00:23:11,599
and sometimes it's not really a ship, it's just some chamber,

310
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,000
and then you have other worldly journeys where you fly

311
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,640
on the ship quote unquote, or you go through these

312
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,400
long hallways and you come to these lands that are

313
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,960
all these different colors and I'm like, oh, that's celestial stuff.

314
00:23:28,079 --> 00:23:31,400
Sometimes there's castles made of crystal and I'm like, oh, yeah,

315
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,640
I've heard about that too. And then there's usually a

316
00:23:37,039 --> 00:23:43,160
message you have a job. You can be a healer.

317
00:23:43,759 --> 00:23:45,960
If you listen to what we say, you can help

318
00:23:46,039 --> 00:23:50,880
other people. And people come back changed, and a lot

319
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,240
of people become vegetarians or vegans, a lot of people

320
00:23:55,240 --> 00:24:01,839
become activists for human rights or animals or both. Some

321
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,000
people come back pacifists, and most of them come back

322
00:24:06,039 --> 00:24:09,799
with some kind of ecological awareness that they didn't have before.

323
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,440
And I'm sitting here going, well, that's Mother Earth talking

324
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,440
to you right there. I don't know what else to say.

325
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,440
And so what I started looking at it that way?

326
00:24:19,759 --> 00:24:23,200
I remembered what Michael Harner said. You know, you have

327
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:28,039
your selection where the spirits come and say, oh, hey,

328
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,039
we'd we'd like they did with you. You know, Hey, we're

329
00:24:32,079 --> 00:24:34,279
over here, Hey come here, talk to me. Hi, I'm

330
00:24:34,279 --> 00:24:37,160
looking at you. So you have the selection. Then you

331
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:43,759
have an initiation, which sometimes involves dismemberment uh or some

332
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,480
kind of you know, opening up of the head or

333
00:24:47,559 --> 00:24:53,920
the chest and putting things inside like sacred stones. So

334
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:59,440
that's you know, that's just like those UFO implants. Sometimes

335
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,319
they change organs with you, so the spirit will take

336
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,480
something out of himself and put into you, and then.

337
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:07,079
Speaker 1: You have.

338
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 2: Magical flights. You you go into the upper world realms

339
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,799
and talk to other spirits and you talk with higher

340
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:18,759
entities and you come back with a job.

341
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,279
Speaker 1: Yep, and you don't.

342
00:25:23,799 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 2: No, you do not. And it's the same way with

343
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,119
so many times when people have said to the quote

344
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,200
unquote aliens, the grays or whatever, you have no right

345
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:36,920
to do this to me, they say, we have every

346
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:37,599
right to do.

347
00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 4: This to you.

348
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I actually asked my spirit teachers about this.

349
00:25:45,079 --> 00:25:47,160
And now this is just my personal notices. I'm not

350
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,160
saying that, you know, this applies for everybody out there.

351
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,839
But they said, I was like, why do you wreck

352
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,920
our lives when we don't accept the call? And they said, well,

353
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,200
we only kind of sort partly wreck your life. They said,

354
00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:08,039
we call you in multiple lifetimes. If you if you're

355
00:26:08,039 --> 00:26:10,720
being called in this lifetime, you've probably been called in

356
00:26:10,759 --> 00:26:15,359
another lifetime, and we will keep calling you until you accept,

357
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,839
and then once you accept, we'll keep calling you still

358
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,400
but like you. But they said, the thing is, if

359
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,599
you've accepted the call in a past life, guess what

360
00:26:23,839 --> 00:26:27,880
you still are committed in our view. And they said,

361
00:26:28,079 --> 00:26:31,319
the thing is part of the reason your life gets

362
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:37,319
so wrecked is that once you stepped into that agreement,

363
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,440
you can't go back to living a normal life. And

364
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,799
the metaphor that they gave me was that as as

365
00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:50,119
a drum is to a shaman, right, Who's because frequently

366
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,400
we use drums to as a sonic driver to inner trance, right,

367
00:26:53,519 --> 00:26:56,519
they said, as the drum is to you, you are

368
00:26:56,559 --> 00:26:59,839
to us. And they said you are basically hollowed out

369
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,359
and you're given a very loud voice so that you

370
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,759
can transmit from us to other people. And we will

371
00:27:06,799 --> 00:27:08,359
beat you like a drum.

372
00:27:09,279 --> 00:27:14,599
Speaker 2: So that we will beat you so that that voice

373
00:27:14,839 --> 00:27:15,640
you know comes out.

374
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 3: And it's they from their point of view, and from

375
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,440
what they tell me, see, the need is so urgent

376
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,480
that they don't have time to aff around and find out.

377
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:30,200
And but it's not always that they're just being jerks

378
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,400
about it. It's just that one and I know this

379
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,640
from my own personal experience because I at one point,

380
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,079
after I had accepted this and.

381
00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:40,799
Speaker 1: Everything, I had a little uh.

382
00:27:40,599 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 3: Tip with one of my spirit teachers and I was like,

383
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,640
screw you guys, I'm going home. And they were like,

384
00:27:46,759 --> 00:27:50,079
a ha ha, you can You can't go home because

385
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,480
this is home now. And I very quickly realized they

386
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,200
were right, because you can't.

387
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: You know, once you are.

388
00:27:58,799 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 3: Doing spirit work, you can't just go back to like

389
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,839
work in your office jobs. I mean it's not to

390
00:28:07,839 --> 00:28:10,799
say that you can't function or anything. You can, but

391
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,160
it's like, you know, you're going to be doing stuff that,

392
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,480
especially in modern Western society, is regarded as.

393
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:19,759
Speaker 1: Really really weak.

394
00:28:20,759 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 3: And if you try and hide that or in order

395
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,240
to get in or you try to somehow you.

396
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 1: Know, deny it, it just and that's why I.

397
00:28:32,079 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 3: Got so incredibly depressed in grad school, and I mean

398
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,440
I was we're talking suicidal ideation. It was a really

399
00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:41,559
deep depression because you know, at my job, I'm like

400
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,200
seeing spirits out of the corner of my eyes and stuff,

401
00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:46,960
and yet I'm in this world where I don't dare

402
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,480
admit to that because I will lose all my credibility m.

403
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:52,519
Speaker 1: It's funny.

404
00:28:52,519 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 3: I listened to the Weird Studies podcast and one of

405
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,400
the hosts was saying that it's, you know, in some

406
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,559
way so silly that it academia a lot of times.

407
00:29:03,759 --> 00:29:07,400
What is what it seemed to give you the credibility

408
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,839
to talk on a subject is the fact that you've never.

409
00:29:09,759 --> 00:29:15,759
Speaker 1: Experienced with was just so backwards. But it's absolutely true.

410
00:29:16,119 --> 00:29:19,319
It's absolutely true, especially if you're in a science or

411
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,839
science adjacent kind Yeah, and so that was, you know,

412
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:24,799
that was why.

413
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:31,079
Speaker 3: Like internally psychologically, everything was falling apart from me. And

414
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:37,839
I think possibly part of the reason why in in

415
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,799
the West, in modern times, why the initiation often seems

416
00:29:42,839 --> 00:29:46,440
to go along with your life just falling apart, is

417
00:29:46,519 --> 00:29:54,119
because in traditional societies that had a continuous shamanic tradition,

418
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:59,720
there were all of the protocols in place to train

419
00:29:59,799 --> 00:30:02,599
the and guide them through the initiation that were ritual

420
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,920
ceremonies and all this kind of stuff. We don't have that,

421
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,279
and so a lot of the initiation plays out both

422
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:16,240
on this spirit level, but it also like it manifests.

423
00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:16,799
Speaker 1: In your life.

424
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you don't just do an underworld, you know,

425
00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:26,279
journey in the it's not just like your spirit journeys

426
00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:30,559
to the underworld, but like in metaphorical senses sometimes or

427
00:30:30,559 --> 00:30:33,799
even literally because sometimes people have near death experiences and stuff.

428
00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:36,759
But the time that I was caring for my mom

429
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,519
was very much a kind of a death experience because,

430
00:30:42,839 --> 00:30:44,519
as I said when I mentioned that I had no

431
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:49,680
plan B, what I was gonna. What I'm bringing that

432
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,319
back to is that by caring for my mom, I

433
00:30:54,359 --> 00:30:56,759
had to leave my academic career. There was no way

434
00:30:56,799 --> 00:30:59,359
I could go back into it because I couldn't participate

435
00:30:59,759 --> 00:31:04,079
in stuff that you need to do to become a professional.

436
00:31:04,119 --> 00:31:06,599
I couldn't go to conferences. I couldn't publish papers, I

437
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:11,640
couldn't do research. I couldn't even whip my dissertation into

438
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,640
shape to publish it, which is standard practice.

439
00:31:13,759 --> 00:31:17,519
Speaker 1: It is freely accessful, but it's not quartally published.

440
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:23,759
Speaker 3: And that was a huge grief for me, and not

441
00:31:23,839 --> 00:31:26,880
just because I really love archaeology and anthropology, but because

442
00:31:27,279 --> 00:31:29,880
my whole identity was in that. You know, I was

443
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,160
an academic. I was like a fourth generation academic on

444
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,160
my dad's side, and that was just what I was

445
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:43,200
going to do. And I had to completely die to

446
00:31:43,279 --> 00:31:47,759
myself basically, and there was also this experience of being

447
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,720
of like helplessness where it's kind of like.

448
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: There's nothing I can do to really change my situation.

449
00:31:54,759 --> 00:31:55,559
This is what it is.

450
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess technically I could have just told

451
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,240
my mom Sia, but I.

452
00:32:01,279 --> 00:32:05,839
Speaker 1: Wasn't gonna do that. That wouldn't be right, and and

453
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,880
you know, I loved her very much, so so there

454
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:10,279
was this sort of this.

455
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,119
Speaker 3: I really perceive, and it's not the only initiation I've

456
00:32:15,119 --> 00:32:16,200
been through, because really I.

457
00:32:16,119 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: Feel like it's just kind of one after another thing.

458
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,400
But there's like the first thing that happens is this

459
00:32:22,519 --> 00:32:26,240
experience of kind of the old you dies and then

460
00:32:26,319 --> 00:32:29,319
you are in this like kind of burial.

461
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 3: Phase and like decomposition where the old you is dead

462
00:32:33,319 --> 00:32:36,559
but the new you hasn't come into being yet, and

463
00:32:36,599 --> 00:32:41,079
you feel really disoriented and very just like what is happening?

464
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:41,319
Speaker 1: Real?

465
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 3: Even am I? What does the need of this mean?

466
00:32:44,599 --> 00:32:47,680
And there's no point in starting any new projects, there's

467
00:32:47,839 --> 00:32:53,519
no point in trying to reinvent yourself at this point

468
00:32:53,559 --> 00:32:58,039
because you you can surrender to the helplessness and just

469
00:32:58,079 --> 00:33:02,400
go with the flow, which makes it easier somewhat, but

470
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,720
it's going to happen regardless, and then there's the sort

471
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,119
of a reaver and that's when you come into your

472
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:14,079
new phase of life and you can sort of presume

473
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,680
being that active agents in your life.

474
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:19,519
Speaker 1: Yeah.

475
00:33:19,599 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. One of the one of the things that

476
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:31,839
I think is very interesting when we talk about initiatory experiences,

477
00:33:32,759 --> 00:33:35,480
and one of the one of the things people have

478
00:33:35,559 --> 00:33:37,920
said to me is like, well, it's not exactly one

479
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,519
to one, and you know what, what are these these

480
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,200
UFO initiates supposed to be doing. What is their job?

481
00:33:48,279 --> 00:33:50,240
And I'm like, well, they tell you what their job is.

482
00:33:50,359 --> 00:33:50,559
Speaker 1: You know.

483
00:33:50,599 --> 00:33:55,279
Speaker 2: There's there's some people like Ted Rice who became a

484
00:33:55,319 --> 00:33:59,240
psychic and he's he was, well he is, he's still alive.

485
00:33:59,799 --> 00:34:03,799
He was very very accurate with his with his readings,

486
00:34:04,039 --> 00:34:08,920
and as he went back through his life and looked

487
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:13,719
at it through a different lens, he realized he had

488
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:19,519
been essentially educated to do that from the beginning and

489
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,719
he never really had a normal life. You know, his

490
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:30,960
started in childhood, so he was he was essentially put together.

491
00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:42,159
And there's some initiative activities that happened. He's he's in

492
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,960
a book called Masquerade of Angels and he wrote it

493
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:53,480
with doctor Carla Turner, and she did research into abduction

494
00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:59,239
scenarios and abduction experiences because she had the experiences herself

495
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:05,280
and her whole family did. And so one of these experiences,

496
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,559
he finally near the end of the book, figures it

497
00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:10,760
out and he said, you know, I was a child

498
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,119
and I watched them pull a body out that looked

499
00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:20,679
exactly like me. Oh, and then they gave me this

500
00:35:21,159 --> 00:35:24,559
drink and said drink this. And I'm like, oh, here

501
00:35:24,599 --> 00:35:26,679
we go, here we go. Don't drink stuff in fairy,

502
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,639
don't do that, yeah, you know, and he did because

503
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,519
he was given really no choice, much like you were

504
00:35:33,559 --> 00:35:38,599
given no choice, and there's no right of refusal, as

505
00:35:38,639 --> 00:35:44,280
you say, So he drank it and he died. He

506
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:49,079
became paralyzed. He fell down, and then he said he

507
00:35:49,159 --> 00:35:51,639
was floating above his body, and he watched as they

508
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:57,920
dismembered his body. And then they used this black box

509
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,039
to pull his sole out and put in the box,

510
00:36:02,199 --> 00:36:04,639
and then later on it was taken from the box

511
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,840
and put into the new body. As soon as I

512
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,880
read this, I'm like, oh, it's just like when bear

513
00:36:10,079 --> 00:36:12,239
takes you apart and puts you back together again. With

514
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:17,639
extra stuff, right, you know, it's just a more more

515
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:23,199
sort of technological looking version of that. And you know,

516
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,639
he was like, I I came back, and I was

517
00:36:26,679 --> 00:36:30,559
really sick when I when I you know, came out

518
00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:32,559
of that dream or whatever it was, and I was

519
00:36:32,599 --> 00:36:37,000
really sick for like, you know, five six months, and

520
00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:39,639
my my family, you know, was worried about me. I

521
00:36:39,639 --> 00:36:42,239
was always having fevers and they couldn't figure it out.

522
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:47,840
And I'm like, uh huh, yeah, okay, the shamanic sickness, Yes, yes,

523
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:54,400
this happens. And but his story is so it's so

524
00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:01,400
not your typical UFO abduction story, and yet there are

525
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:07,119
so many parallels with the shamanic story. You know, these

526
00:37:07,199 --> 00:37:12,639
these stories just go together really interestingly. And one thing

527
00:37:12,679 --> 00:37:15,400
that really got me is he has an experience with

528
00:37:16,079 --> 00:37:21,760
reptoid beings, the you know, of the bipedal, alligator headed

529
00:37:22,639 --> 00:37:27,039
nasty people, and they do nasty things. They're terrible. All

530
00:37:27,039 --> 00:37:30,760
I could think of was the part in one of

531
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,719
Michael Harner's books where he said, you know, I went

532
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:40,320
into the underworld and I met up with these terrible creatures.

533
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,400
They had, you know, these big alligator teeth and the

534
00:37:43,559 --> 00:37:46,760
big heads and they're following me around and they're all like,

535
00:37:47,039 --> 00:37:49,920
you're terrible, we own you, will eat your soul, you know,

536
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,039
and all of these awful things. He said. So when

537
00:37:52,039 --> 00:37:55,000
I came back, I told the shaman, I'm like, these

538
00:37:55,119 --> 00:38:00,679
guys my it's my favorite response. He just laughed and said, oh, them,

539
00:38:01,039 --> 00:38:05,400
it's just them. They do that. Don't listen to them.

540
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,400
They want you to listen to them and and feel

541
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,639
bad and and do the wrong thing. They're just trying

542
00:38:11,639 --> 00:38:14,400
to make you do the wrong thing. Ignore them. They're

543
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:16,639
just those guys at all. I was like when I

544
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,960
read that book, I was like, oh, Ted, man, it

545
00:38:21,079 --> 00:38:25,320
was those guys.

546
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:29,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've had a few brief run ins

547
00:38:29,079 --> 00:38:32,719
with those guys. They didn't appear with the reptilian form

548
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,039
to me, but uh, same vibe.

549
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:44,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, you belong to us, we created you. Yeah, they're mean.

550
00:38:46,119 --> 00:38:48,719
But at the same time, if you run into them

551
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,360
over and over and you have support from your spiritual allies,

552
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,239
you kind of go, oh, yeah, there you are again.

553
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:06,880
That's nice. Away it's it. Yeah, And uh there's another

554
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:12,519
there's another story. It's from a documentary called Witness of

555
00:39:12,599 --> 00:39:15,800
Another World. If you ever get a chance, I think

556
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,000
it's free in a couple of places on the Internet,

557
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:26,199
and it's about the UFO experience of a young boy

558
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:31,679
in Argentina. He was from a gaucho family on his

559
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,199
dad's side, on his mom's side. He was related to

560
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:40,880
some of the the indigenous people who were who who

561
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:47,679
had shamanic practices going back forever and uh. He as

562
00:39:47,679 --> 00:39:49,920
a boy had been told by his father, hey, go

563
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,920
get the horses, and so he goes out with his

564
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,920
horse to get the other horses and it gets lost

565
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,559
in a fog. And as he's going through the fog,

566
00:39:59,639 --> 00:40:06,000
he comes up to a hut, weird hut, and it

567
00:40:06,119 --> 00:40:12,000
was on stilts and there was weird lights. And he

568
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,159
looked up and there was a ladder to get in there,

569
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:19,400
and he saw his dead grandfather in there, along with

570
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,880
some other beings. And he tied his horse to like

571
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,480
one of the struts or the legs and went in

572
00:40:27,559 --> 00:40:31,280
and then you know, he talked with his grandfather and

573
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,639
then he came out, got on his horse, who was

574
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,880
really freaking out and not happy, and he went back

575
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,119
without the horses, and his dad was mad at him,

576
00:40:43,159 --> 00:40:45,880
and you know, took a belt to him and yelled

577
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:47,760
at him. And he was like, but I saw this

578
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,599
thing and there were lights, and I don't know what happened,

579
00:40:51,039 --> 00:40:53,760
and my horse has freaked out. His horse died like

580
00:40:53,800 --> 00:41:00,679
a few days later. Yeah. Yeah, so there was something

581
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,000
not good happening, and it just the whole experience really

582
00:41:05,039 --> 00:41:10,360
just shut this kid down. And doctor Jacques Vallet was

583
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,400
one of the first Westerners to talk with him about this.

584
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,199
This was back in the seventies and he had his wife,

585
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,400
Jeanine with him, who was a child psychologist, and so

586
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,119
he was really happy he had brought her because she

587
00:41:24,199 --> 00:41:27,679
could help this child, and they spoke with him, and

588
00:41:29,079 --> 00:41:32,360
what ended up happening over you know, a period of

589
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,559
like thirty or forty years, he just ended up becoming

590
00:41:34,599 --> 00:41:38,000
a recluse. He had a farm. The only person he

591
00:41:38,079 --> 00:41:41,760
really saw was his mother because she lived with him

592
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,599
and he had his animals, and that's who he interacted with.

593
00:41:47,639 --> 00:41:56,159
That whole like UFO thing just it it just destroyed

594
00:41:56,199 --> 00:42:04,920
him essentially personally. Well interestingly, a documentarian found out about

595
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,719
him and was like, you know, let's see what happens

596
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,480
if I bring doctor Valay back. Let's see what happens

597
00:42:11,519 --> 00:42:15,000
if we you know, if we talk to people on

598
00:42:15,079 --> 00:42:17,760
his mom's side of the family. And what ends up

599
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,320
happening is doctor Valay remembers him, of course, and he

600
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,719
remembers doctor Valay. They talk. He will not talk about

601
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:28,159
the exact instance. He just kind of talks around it

602
00:42:28,199 --> 00:42:34,719
because he's still upset about it. And his mother's people said,

603
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,559
bring him, bring him to his ancestral village, bring him here,

604
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,639
and they do, and they initiate him and he can

605
00:42:43,679 --> 00:42:48,199
talk again, because that's what they said. They were like,

606
00:42:48,519 --> 00:42:52,320
this is what we do. That was a spirit and

607
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,840
it was coming for you, and that's why you haven't

608
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,840
been able to do anything right, because you didn't understand

609
00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:03,519
a call and you weren't able to talk with your

610
00:43:03,559 --> 00:43:07,800
ancestors the way we do. And so they taught him

611
00:43:08,039 --> 00:43:13,039
and they initiated him and it essentially healed him. So yeah,

612
00:43:13,079 --> 00:43:16,679
all those spoilers people, there's so many spoilers, but it's

613
00:43:16,679 --> 00:43:18,320
been out for a while, so I figure you've seen it.

614
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:23,760
But it it it's very much a if you didn't

615
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,559
think of it as as UFO related at all, if

616
00:43:26,559 --> 00:43:29,519
you didn't know anything about it, you would see it

617
00:43:29,559 --> 00:43:31,079
as a shamanic story.

618
00:43:34,559 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 1: Absolutely or even.

619
00:43:38,159 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 3: It's very similar to a lot of the fairy folk

620
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,920
wore too, you know, they get abducted by the fairies,

621
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,159
they disappear, they come back and they're faery doctors now

622
00:43:49,199 --> 00:43:54,000
and they heal po or like Bessy Dunlop, who was

623
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,960
one of the women in England or Scotland, and she

624
00:43:59,039 --> 00:44:01,480
ended up getting prospers for witchcraft, which is why we

625
00:44:01,559 --> 00:44:03,599
have a record of what happened her.

626
00:44:04,519 --> 00:44:05,599
Speaker 1: But she was just.

627
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 3: Walking along one day feeling bad because life was not

628
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,840
going well, when a spirit comes to her. Now the

629
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,760
spirit said that that he was actually a deceased human

630
00:44:16,199 --> 00:44:19,880
but he lived in the fairy realm and basically the

631
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,800
Queen of Fairy had sent him to be her familiar

632
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:24,639
and like help her out with stuff. But she was

633
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:25,519
basically like.

634
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 1: Oh way, I don't want any part of this. My

635
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,920
life's a lot of my place right now. And he's like, yeah,

636
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:35,639
well you don't gonna say no though, so so you know,

637
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,320
I mean, yeah, you know, Josh Cutchens, so like you

638
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,760
already know that there are these parallels, but it blows

639
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:51,199
my mind that how similar they are and that they

640
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:55,280
happened in such a similar way even within this context

641
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,440
of the society. That meaning the modern West.

642
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 2: You know that doesn't Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my favorite,

643
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:09,320
you know, fairy things that happened in the twentieth century

644
00:45:09,599 --> 00:45:13,880
was supposedly not even a fairy thing. It was Joe Simonton,

645
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,320
the chicken farmer, minding his own business when he comes

646
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:23,159
upon a landed quote unquote ufo and little little, little

647
00:45:23,159 --> 00:45:26,159
Italian looking guys were cooking pancakes and they asked for

648
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,360
water and he gave it to him. And and I'm

649
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,679
sitting here going how many stories are there of fairies

650
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:37,199
coming up to the door asking for water or grain

651
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,760
or whatever, and then they gave the dude some pancakes

652
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:46,360
and flew away. Well, Joe didn't ask for that for

653
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,800
one thing, and what is he supposed to do with that?

654
00:45:53,119 --> 00:45:57,039
But it wasn't. No, they were crappy and they had

655
00:45:57,119 --> 00:46:07,639
no salt, which again fairies don't like. So yeah, yeah,

656
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,639
And that's another thing about UFO occupants. They're always trying

657
00:46:11,679 --> 00:46:14,559
to get you to drink something or eat something. And

658
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,199
I'm always kind of like, I don't know about that.

659
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:22,079
Maybe you shouldn't, I don't think so. But yeah, that's

660
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,880
that's one of the things that you know, maybe the

661
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:30,800
fairy lore was our last in the you know, Anglo

662
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,559
Saxon West and Celtic West that we had that was

663
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:43,280
shamanically involved. And when we've you know, finally destroyed that

664
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:47,679
and turned it into nursery tales and ignored it for

665
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:53,119
the most part, that's when we started getting I don't know,

666
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:58,280
UFOs and aliens and all that.

667
00:47:02,079 --> 00:47:07,199
Speaker 3: They get framed in this materialist sort of way, technological

668
00:47:08,079 --> 00:47:11,960
instead of looking numinous or whatever, because there's now the

669
00:47:12,039 --> 00:47:16,400
news isn't allowed real, so they just put on the

670
00:47:16,559 --> 00:47:18,679
skin and show up in a way it's like.

671
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 2: Oh goy. Some of my favorite ones also are from

672
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,239
the fifties, similar to Simonson, And there's a couple of

673
00:47:27,159 --> 00:47:31,360
uh Italian stories where women are either you know, wandering

674
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:35,119
around in the mountains and picking flowers and you know,

675
00:47:35,199 --> 00:47:37,679
the woman takes her stockings and shoes off so she

676
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,000
can wade in the creek and and she's mining her

677
00:47:41,039 --> 00:47:44,719
own business walking around and there's this egg shaped vehicle,

678
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,559
you know, sitting on three legs, and these little guys

679
00:47:48,639 --> 00:47:54,199
wearing space helmets and capes because that's a thing whatever,

680
00:47:55,199 --> 00:47:57,559
run up and they you know, they steal her flowers

681
00:47:57,639 --> 00:48:00,000
and they yank or stockings off out of her hand

682
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:00,639
and run off.

683
00:48:01,079 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: You know.

684
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 2: I was like, there's another Italian lady who was putting

685
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,360
a wash on the line and they stole stockings and

686
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,440
ran off. And then they were in the same kind

687
00:48:09,519 --> 00:48:12,079
of like egg shaped and they had these, you know,

688
00:48:12,159 --> 00:48:15,039
these helmets, and I was like, that's the early when

689
00:48:15,039 --> 00:48:17,320
they were like, oh, we're space people, and they just

690
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:21,480
weren't really good at it. You know, they hadn't they

691
00:48:21,519 --> 00:48:23,800
hadn't figured out what space people do yet.

692
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:27,280
Speaker 1: No, they.

693
00:48:29,199 --> 00:48:32,599
Speaker 2: Hadn't watched enough of the you know, nineteen fifties movies.

694
00:48:32,639 --> 00:48:35,760
They're supposed to have tentacles and stuff. They didn't, or

695
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:43,239
maybe they just thought they were icky. I don't know. Yeah,

696
00:48:43,519 --> 00:48:51,320
So when you look at all of these stories, I

697
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,559
mean I like to look at them as stories in

698
00:48:54,639 --> 00:48:59,639
a way, and then analyze the motifs that you see

699
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,039
some kind of a Thomas Bullard person. I like to,

700
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:08,159
you know, dig in there and realize that these these

701
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:12,159
tales have been with us for a very long time,

702
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,639
and the spirits have been calling people for a very

703
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:22,199
long time, and in a lot of ways, I feel

704
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:27,519
as if there has to be some kind of way

705
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:34,840
to bridge the gap between modern shamanic practitioners in a

706
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:41,679
Western model and UFO abduction and kind of at least

707
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,880
get an exchange of information, you know, I think that

708
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:46,400
would help.

709
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're really those of us who were brought up

710
00:49:53,599 --> 00:49:57,000
within a modern Western cultural background.

711
00:49:57,039 --> 00:49:57,639
Speaker 1: And that's a lot of.

712
00:49:57,639 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 3: People, including even people who are actually indigenous, but you know.

713
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: Their lands have been colonized by you know, this or

714
00:50:05,559 --> 00:50:10,159
that empire, and so like it or not, they were,

715
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:16,519
you know, forcibly brought up within modern Western modernity and

716
00:50:19,679 --> 00:50:20,639
all of those.

717
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 3: Culturally specific trainings and more and rituals of initiation and

718
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:29,199
all this.

719
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 1: You know that.

720
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:39,320
Speaker 3: That smooths the process of initiation, and without that, it's

721
00:50:39,599 --> 00:50:40,880
all along the spirits to.

722
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,519
Speaker 1: Do all of that for us, they do most of

723
00:50:43,639 --> 00:50:50,039
the training, they do the initiation, and it's it makes

724
00:50:50,119 --> 00:50:53,280
it just a lot more difficult because you have to

725
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,039
you know, it's like you have to reinvent.

726
00:50:55,880 --> 00:51:03,159
Speaker 2: Almost almost every time when you're talking about end. That's

727
00:51:03,199 --> 00:51:04,119
got to be tiresome.

728
00:51:06,679 --> 00:51:09,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's very.

729
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 3: Psychologically difficult for the person who's going through it because

730
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:22,000
you'll notice, if he's listening to people's accounts of their

731
00:51:22,199 --> 00:51:25,239
unexplained experiences, you know, whether it's bigfoot or ghosts or

732
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,440
UFOs or what have you. There's this performance that you'll

733
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,159
hear people go through over and over and over again,

734
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,760
which is, well, I'm a skeptic, but or I used

735
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,800
to be a skeptic, but and so the little ritual

736
00:51:38,079 --> 00:51:41,480
performance that you do is where you say that you

737
00:51:41,599 --> 00:51:45,159
didn't believe in this kind of stuff until the preponderance

738
00:51:45,199 --> 00:51:48,400
of your experience got to be so big that you simply.

739
00:51:48,079 --> 00:51:49,280
Speaker 1: Couldn't deny it anymore.

740
00:51:50,679 --> 00:51:53,280
Speaker 3: And so you had to concede that there's something going

741
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,960
on here, and we have to go through that because

742
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:02,760
it's it's like, you don't you have no credibility within

743
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:06,480
sort of Western what I think of as like meta culture.

744
00:52:06,639 --> 00:52:09,079
You know, you have no credibility if you just straight

745
00:52:09,159 --> 00:52:10,880
up to say, oh, yeah, you know, I've been seeing.

746
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 1: Spirits with a little kid, never had any doubt about it.

747
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:20,440
Oh yeah, yeah, I do too. And but even so

748
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:25,039
I still put myself through that by doing that whole Well,

749
00:52:25,079 --> 00:52:26,880
this can be happening to me. I mean I never

750
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:30,800
pooh pooed that this happens to people in like indigenous cultures.

751
00:52:31,519 --> 00:52:34,760
That wouldn't you know, I totally take it for granted

752
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:39,239
that what they're describing is what they're experiencing, but surely

753
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:40,400
that couldn't be happening in me.

754
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,760
Speaker 3: And so, you know, even I had to go through

755
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,440
this thing. But it's such a waste of time. It's

756
00:52:48,519 --> 00:52:51,519
such a waste of time, and it's so silly when

757
00:52:51,559 --> 00:52:56,440
you look at it from a bigger perspective, in that

758
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:00,280
when you look at cultures.

759
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:06,519
Speaker 1: Globally and through time, this this tiny little phenomenon of

760
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,400
the past few hundred years, in this tiny little corner

761
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:13,679
of what claims to be a continent but is really

762
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,159
more just like a weird, bumpy peninsula that sticks off

763
00:53:17,199 --> 00:53:19,320
the end of Asia, i e. Europe.

764
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,639
Speaker 3: And really it wasn't even everybody there. It was like

765
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:31,000
the land owning, educated white male, you know, elite essentially,

766
00:53:31,159 --> 00:53:40,920
who decided to adopt this absolutely crazy perspective that the

767
00:53:41,039 --> 00:53:43,599
stuff that takes up such a huge percentage of human

768
00:53:43,679 --> 00:53:45,760
experience everywhere, in every win.

769
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: Is not real.

770
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,519
Speaker 3: And I mean to say that, to say that that's

771
00:53:50,679 --> 00:53:56,239
race is like an understate. But it also just when

772
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,920
you look at it from that perspective, it's like, I mean,

773
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,320
I'm not one to say that just because a lot

774
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,119
of people believe something that makes it true, but there's

775
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:08,039
no denying that this is a normal and natural part

776
00:54:08,199 --> 00:54:10,440
of human experience on.

777
00:54:10,639 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 1: The global scale. And for this one tiny little corner

778
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:16,880
of people in this very very.

779
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:21,199
Speaker 3: Very short period of time to think that somehow they

780
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:28,800
have a more accurate assessment of what constitutes reality is delusional.

781
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 1: It is delusional.

782
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:36,320
Speaker 3: It is like a societal mental illness, and we're all

783
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:40,880
trying to basically wake up out of that societal psychotic

784
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:46,039
break with no help, with no help societally speaking.

785
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:51,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the things that I find, I mean,

786
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:57,679
it's even comedians see it. Eddie Hazard, you know, he

787
00:54:58,199 --> 00:55:02,159
talked about how you're made these huge empires by going

788
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:04,920
into other people's countries and smacking a flag in it

789
00:55:05,039 --> 00:55:08,239
and going it's ours now, and you know they're like,

790
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:11,000
we live here, and it's like it doesn't matter. Do

791
00:55:11,039 --> 00:55:15,360
you have a flag? No, No, it's part of the

792
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:16,159
British Empire.

793
00:55:16,519 --> 00:55:16,679
Speaker 1: You know.

794
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 2: It's like that is so just psychotic. Really, I'm just

795
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,440
going to march into a country full of people and

796
00:55:29,639 --> 00:55:35,960
because I'm European, I'm gonna take it over. And that's

797
00:55:36,159 --> 00:55:39,519
that's just how it worked. And then all of the

798
00:55:39,639 --> 00:55:44,199
beliefs that came with the colonization were better than the

799
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,719
beliefs that were already there, and so they tried to

800
00:55:48,079 --> 00:55:50,800
beat those beliefs out of people.

801
00:55:51,519 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 1: And I.

802
00:55:55,800 --> 00:56:03,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah that that also. Yeah, it's one of those.

803
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,079
I guess it just comes with the whole idea that

804
00:56:06,159 --> 00:56:09,960
you can just walk into somebody's living space and say

805
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:10,639
it's yours now.

806
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 4: I guess.

807
00:56:13,119 --> 00:56:16,039
Speaker 2: So that everything is yours now, your thoughts are mine

808
00:56:16,199 --> 00:56:18,880
now here have my thoughts there, you go, They're better

809
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,239
than your thoughts, you know, have have my philosophy, it's

810
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:23,039
better than yours.

811
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,679
Speaker 4: Wow, just it.

812
00:56:28,079 --> 00:56:34,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really crazy, and it's amazing that there are

813
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,480
still so many Indigenous people that still keep trying to

814
00:56:37,519 --> 00:56:41,239
help us, I know, right, and I you know, to

815
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,519
some extent, I think that there are just genuinely good people.

816
00:56:45,199 --> 00:56:47,320
And to some extent I think they're just like, my god,

817
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,559
you guys are so dangerous, Like we have to snap

818
00:56:50,599 --> 00:56:52,719
you out of this for the sake of everybody, because

819
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:57,079
you are just ruining it for everyone. Yeah, which is

820
00:56:57,119 --> 00:56:59,840
absolutely true. And there's still spirits keep trying to help

821
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:05,519
them too, and but you know, we're so busy pretending

822
00:57:05,559 --> 00:57:08,400
that they don't exist, that we don't listen to them.

823
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:15,800
So yeah, it's it's it's like a mental illness and

824
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,119
a spiritual one at the same time, and we are

825
00:57:21,159 --> 00:57:25,599
Tyson Young Paporta calls it a civilizational curse that we

826
00:57:26,039 --> 00:57:28,719
are basically living under, and we're all haunted because we

827
00:57:29,079 --> 00:57:32,400
in the whole process of denying that anything that's not

828
00:57:32,599 --> 00:57:36,800
physical exists, we have also neglected, you know, generations worth

829
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,719
of ancestors and genocided a bunch of people as well

830
00:57:41,519 --> 00:57:49,239
of untended dead around. And so is it any wonder

831
00:57:49,519 --> 00:57:54,039
that we have so many people going through mental health

832
00:57:54,559 --> 00:57:57,880
problems and just experiencing this existential despair.

833
00:57:58,239 --> 00:57:58,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

834
00:57:58,599 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 2: Well, and it's also the that we didn't believe in

835
00:58:01,559 --> 00:58:07,119
psychology until recently either, true, you know, and the way

836
00:58:07,199 --> 00:58:10,360
that we treated mentally ill people was you know, I

837
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:14,920
mean sixteenth seventeenth century. Oh just stick them in and

838
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,239
a dungeon and shain them to the wall and let

839
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:22,880
rich people pay to point fingers and laugh. Wow. That helps.

840
00:58:23,599 --> 00:58:30,480
That does a good job. Nice, well done, very therapeutic. Yes, uh,

841
00:58:31,519 --> 00:58:36,000
you know it if you look at the way that

842
00:58:38,159 --> 00:58:43,840
even today mentally ill people are treated, it's it's shameful.

843
00:58:44,719 --> 00:58:47,079
And it's not like we haven't known better for a

844
00:58:47,199 --> 00:58:54,679
long time, so it's kind of you know, when when

845
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,719
the Athens Lunatic Asylum was built, it was built to

846
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:05,840
be humanitarian, and it was built on a humanistic basis,

847
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:10,159
you know, all of it, from the architecture, from the treatments,

848
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:16,400
from the food, from you know, having them work the

849
00:59:16,559 --> 00:59:21,239
farms so they were doing something productive and learning skills.

850
00:59:21,679 --> 00:59:26,199
All of this was meant to be compassionate care. And

851
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:29,639
it lasted for about ten years and then it became

852
00:59:29,719 --> 00:59:32,480
overcrowded and awful, and.

853
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:35,320
Speaker 1: You know, but.

854
00:59:37,639 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 2: So that was what it was right after the Civil War,

855
00:59:41,039 --> 00:59:43,320
so it was the eighteen sixties. So we knew better

856
00:59:44,119 --> 00:59:47,760
for a long time, and it's just that we would

857
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:54,880
backslide and we come to capitalism I think as being

858
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:59,840
part of the problem. Oh yeah, because everything has to

859
01:00:00,079 --> 01:00:03,719
make money. It is in the service of making money

860
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:10,400
and continuing to make money and power. And while that's

861
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:14,800
going on, mind you you know, after the Civil War,

862
01:00:15,079 --> 01:00:19,280
we were expanding into the West and committing genocide on

863
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:20,039
a large scale.

864
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: So you know, if people wonder what evil's beards look like,

865
01:00:26,119 --> 01:00:28,519
that's what it looks like. That is what it looks like.

866
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:33,079
Speaker 3: I mean, okay, it's my salty opinion, but yeah, it

867
01:00:33,159 --> 01:00:34,119
looks like capitalism.

868
01:00:34,239 --> 01:00:36,079
Speaker 1: It looks like thinking you're entitled to just.

869
01:00:37,599 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 3: Commit mass burger because you would really like that patch

870
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:44,280
of land and there's somebody inconvenient on it already.

871
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:50,559
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it's also doing things like killing the

872
01:00:50,599 --> 01:00:53,440
food supply on that patch of land that was keeping

873
01:00:53,519 --> 01:00:59,719
that patch of land good and alive, because grazing cattaly

874
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:04,239
is not the same things as bison, and that's how

875
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:07,840
you get the dust bowl, and then you have the depression,

876
01:01:08,559 --> 01:01:09,960
and then you have to have a world war to

877
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,840
get out of that. So now we've had a history

878
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:14,559
lesson on top of everything.

879
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:20,719
Speaker 3: Else, solutions somehow always end up being even worse than

880
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:22,519
the problem that they were supposed to solve.

881
01:01:23,159 --> 01:01:30,719
Speaker 2: I know, yeah, it's just it's just ridiculous and and

882
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:34,079
it just it seems to well, it serves a very

883
01:01:34,159 --> 01:01:40,199
small number of people, is what it does. So one

884
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:42,960
of the things that I was going to say, Oh,

885
01:01:43,119 --> 01:01:48,920
and there's also other other commonalities that I didn't really

886
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:56,039
talk about in UFO experiences. There's often animals being cited

887
01:01:56,119 --> 01:02:00,440
in places that are unusual, like you know, on a ufo,

888
01:02:01,599 --> 01:02:04,800
but also like outside of people's windows looking in, and

889
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:11,719
they usually have very large eyes because that's that's the grays.

890
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:15,960
And I was like, you know, most of the people

891
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:20,079
who do alien abduction, before they knew anything about shamanic practice,

892
01:02:20,159 --> 01:02:22,000
were like, oh, well, these are screen memories.

893
01:02:22,119 --> 01:02:22,280
Speaker 1: You know.

894
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:24,519
Speaker 2: You think you saw an owl, but you really saw

895
01:02:24,559 --> 01:02:26,800
a gray and that's what it was. Or you think

896
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:28,519
you saw a deer, but it really was a gray

897
01:02:28,559 --> 01:02:32,320
because they got big eyes. And and I'm like, oh,

898
01:02:32,719 --> 01:02:38,960
but you know, shamanic practice, deer have always been, you know,

899
01:02:39,079 --> 01:02:44,360
deeply involved with humanity. Owls have always been deeply symbolic

900
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:49,360
in just about every culture, whether good or bad or both.

901
01:02:51,639 --> 01:02:55,119
You know, rabbits the same way, these these and and

902
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:59,440
of course in shamanic practice, we have animal spirits or

903
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:03,400
spirits that can be shaped like animals that can also

904
01:03:03,519 --> 01:03:07,320
shape shift themselves. So of course, you know I'm reading

905
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:10,280
this this you know, well, that's just a that's just

906
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:12,400
a screen memory that they implanted in your head. And

907
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:18,119
I'm like, are you sure maybe the animal was just involved?

908
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean this is the thing about about animism,

909
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:29,679
right mm hm, is we are.

910
01:03:32,119 --> 01:03:37,320
Speaker 3: Intricately enmeshed in this web of relationships with all the

911
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:41,760
beings and they and as you frequently will hear.

912
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:49,119
Speaker 1: Said about animism, it's like the world is full of persons,

913
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:49,679
only some.

914
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 3: Of whom are humans. And in fact, humans are a

915
01:03:53,599 --> 01:03:58,440
minority of the persons who are around. And there are

916
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:03,239
animal persons, there are persons, there are plant persons. Sometimes

917
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:07,639
there are geographical persons like rivers and mountains and so on.

918
01:04:08,599 --> 01:04:12,119
And what makes them persons is that they have a

919
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:13,840
consciousness and an.

920
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:19,360
Speaker 1: Agency of their own. And so, you know, the shaman.

921
01:04:21,119 --> 01:04:22,880
You'll always hear it said, well, the shaman, you know,

922
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:23,920
works for their community.

923
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 3: And some people will say, well, you know, you can't

924
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:28,840
call yourself a shaman because that's something that the community

925
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:32,840
has to designate you. And in a traditional culture that's true,

926
01:04:35,519 --> 01:04:39,800
but it's a little bit more tricky here in the

927
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:41,599
West because a large part.

928
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 1: Of your community is denying that any of those excess

929
01:04:45,239 --> 01:04:47,800
But what has been impressed upon me is that the

930
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:52,320
community is also all these other beings. Yes, and you

931
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:53,360
work for them too.

932
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 3: Because you know ideally what your your mission sort of is.

933
01:04:59,239 --> 01:05:00,719
I mean, at least this is how it was presented

934
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:03,199
to me. And maybe this is not true for everybody,

935
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:10,239
but is that you are trying to create a dynamic

936
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:15,599
equilibrium where everybody can flourish together.

937
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:19,079
Speaker 1: And it doesn't mean that there's no death and there's

938
01:05:19,159 --> 01:05:23,199
no suffering or anything like that. You know, death is

939
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:27,000
there's life, and there's anti life.

940
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 4: Mm hmm.

941
01:05:31,119 --> 01:05:34,320
Speaker 3: And and death is part of the dynamic equilibrium. But

942
01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:37,559
what's not part of the dynamic equilibrium is, for example,

943
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:41,280
killing all buffalo, killing all the people who live on

944
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:44,239
land because you happen to want it. That's anti life.

945
01:05:45,519 --> 01:05:50,360
And yeah, so I have no problem with the idea

946
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:51,920
because I see a lot, a lot of.

947
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 1: The spirits that I deal with do with here as animals,

948
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:57,119
and I have no problem with the idea that they

949
01:05:57,199 --> 01:06:04,559
actually are animals. Instantly, my mind is like, but what

950
01:06:04,719 --> 01:06:09,000
even is an animal? You know? But I don't. But

951
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:12,039
at the same time, you know they do.

952
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:15,199
Speaker 3: They can shape change a lot, and maybe that's just

953
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:17,840
a skin that they choose, because you know, I really

954
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:22,199
like animals, and I am more trusting of animals than

955
01:06:22,239 --> 01:06:26,199
I would be of spirits presenting as human most of

956
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:28,119
the time, probably mm hmm.

957
01:06:30,599 --> 01:06:33,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm I'm a lot that I'm a lot the

958
01:06:33,239 --> 01:06:33,719
same way.

959
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:36,119
Speaker 3: So it really seems actually like a lot of people

960
01:06:36,199 --> 01:06:39,079
who end up getting this call to practice is do

961
01:06:39,559 --> 01:06:44,679
you know shamanic practitioner as kids are very inclined to

962
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:47,079
kind of wander off in.

963
01:06:47,119 --> 01:06:50,119
Speaker 1: The woods and talk to the animals and the plants stuff.

964
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:54,440
And interestingly, I have read that as well for indigenous cultures.

965
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 3: It's not just kids in the West, but and so

966
01:06:56,840 --> 01:07:01,519
that's sometimes in indigenous cultures that have intact shamanic tradition,

967
01:07:02,239 --> 01:07:05,360
that is recognized as a sign that that kid is

968
01:07:05,639 --> 01:07:09,039
probably a potential candidate. It all depends on whether they

969
01:07:09,119 --> 01:07:12,880
actually get that call to the spirits, which happens when

970
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:14,159
they actually right dult.

971
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:16,559
Speaker 1: But but they're kind of seen as like now that

972
01:07:16,639 --> 01:07:19,440
one's probably gonna get that call.

973
01:07:20,519 --> 01:07:25,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I I and yeah, how many of

974
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:30,039
us were wandering around in the woods talking to the

975
01:07:30,159 --> 01:07:33,760
trees and you know, the animals, and I.

976
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:37,199
Speaker 1: Hear that over and over again. It's like something I

977
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:41,239
have in common with so many people who get attracted

978
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:42,639
to or called to the path.

979
01:07:44,079 --> 01:07:51,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's in fact one of the

980
01:07:51,519 --> 01:07:55,679
I mean, one of the things that I remember even

981
01:07:55,719 --> 01:07:58,880
as a small child was I trusted cats and dogs

982
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:02,480
more than I try did most human people, you know,

983
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:06,760
I could. And I also judged human people by how

984
01:08:07,599 --> 01:08:10,320
dogs and cats and other animals reacted to them.

985
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:14,559
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I still think that's a pretty good indicator.

986
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:18,079
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean that's to this day, but even

987
01:08:18,159 --> 01:08:22,479
as a really young kid, I could trust the sense

988
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:24,680
of animals around a person.

989
01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 1: When I was really little, we lived in the country.

990
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:32,720
Speaker 3: And I'm originally from northern California, and we lived in

991
01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:35,119
a rural area. It's kind of I like to call

992
01:08:35,159 --> 01:08:37,800
it the part of California that nobody knows exists, because

993
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:40,399
it's not it's not the Beach, it's not the Bay Area,

994
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:42,840
it's not the mountains, and it's not the wine country

995
01:08:43,279 --> 01:08:44,159
like in tweet.

996
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:47,399
Speaker 1: But it's really rural.

997
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:51,640
Speaker 3: And we had a little, you know, five acre bottle,

998
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:54,039
you know, and I would just kind of go around

999
01:08:54,159 --> 01:08:56,520
and like I was really interested in trying to learn

1000
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:59,960
the names of plants and things, which is still something

1001
01:09:00,239 --> 01:09:02,760
that I am really interested.

1002
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:06,560
Speaker 1: In, and but as a kid it was it wasn't

1003
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:10,039
just like I would like to know what the taxonomical

1004
01:09:10,319 --> 01:09:13,399
binomial of this plant species is. Who was like, I

1005
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:15,720
want to know who this person is, right?

1006
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:22,960
Speaker 3: And we had dogs and my parents. And to be fair,

1007
01:09:23,039 --> 01:09:27,000
this is really more my dad, because he he was

1008
01:09:27,079 --> 01:09:29,800
kind of hands off, very His feeling was that dogs

1009
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:33,039
are perfectly debating sinners and would keep me out of trouble,

1010
01:09:33,039 --> 01:09:33,319
and they.

1011
01:09:33,319 --> 01:09:36,840
Speaker 1: Did, so he wasn't wrong. And so I would just

1012
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:40,720
like walk around with the dogs and you know, hang

1013
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:45,000
out with the animals and and the plants and learn

1014
01:09:45,159 --> 01:09:47,439
their names and all that kind of stuff. And I

1015
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,720
mean that's pretty close to my idea of paradise.

1016
01:09:51,319 --> 01:09:56,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's that's a lot what I did at

1017
01:09:56,640 --> 01:10:00,520
my grandparents' house. So yeah, as long as I had

1018
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:03,199
the dogs with me too, that if I had all

1019
01:10:03,239 --> 01:10:07,600
three dogs, I was fine, Nothing bad would happen, and.

1020
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:10,359
Speaker 3: They would tackleog me too if I went something I

1021
01:10:10,479 --> 01:10:16,119
wasn't supposed to, so which I did anytime my dad,

1022
01:10:16,159 --> 01:10:25,720
whether he's paying close attentions often oops, well, I suspect

1023
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:30,479
that I inherited my ADHD from him. So there's a

1024
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:35,600
certain tendency to intentive. But interestingly, that seems to also

1025
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:36,920
be something that's fairly.

1026
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:39,359
Speaker 1: Common among people who end up on his past.

1027
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:43,399
Speaker 3: It's certainly not like a required qualification, but it's definitely

1028
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:44,079
not uncommon.

1029
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:50,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I would think that some of those different,

1030
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:56,119
differently connected brains would be, you know, part of the

1031
01:10:56,279 --> 01:11:01,560
whole gestalt of what we're talking about people who experience

1032
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:07,239
UFO abduction and people who experience shamanic spirit calls, that

1033
01:11:07,399 --> 01:11:11,399
sort of thing. Yeah, I figured that that all sorts

1034
01:11:11,399 --> 01:11:16,600
of spectrums are involved. Yeah, yeah, because yeah, absolutely.

1035
01:11:17,279 --> 01:11:20,399
Speaker 1: I remember this one time where my friend was just looking.

1036
01:11:20,199 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 3: At me, like, are you great, because I was saying

1037
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:27,399
I was really surprised by how much traffic there.

1038
01:11:27,399 --> 01:11:30,760
Speaker 1: Was on East State Street on this one day, and

1039
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:34,479
she was like, well, it's like the Friday before Halloween

1040
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:38,199
or something like that, so on holiday and you know,

1041
01:11:38,319 --> 01:11:41,359
everybody's out shopping. And I was like really, She's like,

1042
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:42,960
how do you not know this? And I was like, well,

1043
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:44,600
how do you not know what fad the moon is in?

1044
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:51,960
I mean I know that, I know, you know, No,

1045
01:11:52,199 --> 01:11:53,840
I can't keep track of what day of the week

1046
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:58,039
it is. So yeah, yeah, that that tendency to be

1047
01:11:58,159 --> 01:12:01,760
kind of uh, you tune out.

1048
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 3: A lot of the stuff that you need to do

1049
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:09,399
or know in order to function within capitalist society, which

1050
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:13,239
is a challenge, but you are very sensitive to a

1051
01:12:13,319 --> 01:12:14,680
lot of the kind of sparkles.

1052
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:19,399
Speaker 1: You know that. M h, that are what I think.

1053
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:21,439
You know, life is really all about.

1054
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:32,600
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, the important stuff. There's another interesting thing that

1055
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:40,680
that I wanted to ask you about with well, okay,

1056
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:43,720
so John Keel back in the sixties noticed this. He

1057
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:46,479
was one of the first people who really started noticing

1058
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:53,159
that UFO experiences UFO abductions were very similar to things

1059
01:12:53,479 --> 01:12:57,479
like fairy abduction, and that there were all of these

1060
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:04,239
commonalities between US occurrences and UFO witnesses, like you know.

1061
01:13:04,359 --> 01:13:06,159
He was one of the first people to say, well,

1062
01:13:06,279 --> 01:13:09,000
you know, we can't. I mean, we've been staring at

1063
01:13:09,039 --> 01:13:11,920
the UFOs and getting the descriptions of what they've done,

1064
01:13:12,039 --> 01:13:14,520
and we've watched them do their things, but that doesn't

1065
01:13:14,560 --> 01:13:18,399
really tell us anything. The only thing that we can

1066
01:13:18,479 --> 01:13:22,359
actually learn from with UFOs is what the people who

1067
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:27,640
witnessed them or experienced them experienced during that time and

1068
01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:34,119
then afterwards. And he said, if you ask any UFO

1069
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:43,199
experiencer about their past, there's weird things there. Grandma was

1070
01:13:43,239 --> 01:13:50,960
a psychic. Let's see so and so saw ghost. There's

1071
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:54,319
a poltergeist that came into the house right after mom

1072
01:13:54,359 --> 01:13:58,520
and Dad saw the UFO. Something started leaving the doors

1073
01:13:58,600 --> 01:14:04,880
open and unlocked. The TV goes out at the same

1074
01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:07,119
time every night, blah blah blah, and it just goes

1075
01:14:07,239 --> 01:14:11,520
on and on and on. One of the things that

1076
01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:15,000
he noticed and that he began to say in some

1077
01:14:15,199 --> 01:14:19,680
of his writings was he believed that the only quote

1078
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:25,880
unquote materially real part of a UFO experience was the light.

1079
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:29,079
Most of them start with a light in the sky

1080
01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:33,239
that then seems to turn into a solid craft. And

1081
01:14:33,359 --> 01:14:35,760
he said that there was something about the light that

1082
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:40,840
was communicating with the witnesses, the people who saw it,

1083
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:48,840
and that the rest of the experience was somehow communicated

1084
01:14:49,359 --> 01:14:53,920
either directly psychically or it was an imaginal kind of

1085
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:59,640
dimension where he called it paraphysical. So they could be

1086
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:04,399
physic sometimes, but they're not other times. One of the

1087
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:09,479
things that is interesting is I've never had an experience

1088
01:15:09,960 --> 01:15:14,359
in shamanic terms with a strange light, like when I've

1089
01:15:14,399 --> 01:15:18,760
been doing underworld journeys or anything like that. On the

1090
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:20,680
other hand, i can just walk, you know, down the

1091
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:23,359
street or whatever and see a weird light, and I've

1092
01:15:23,399 --> 01:15:26,399
been seeing them all my life. So I was wondering

1093
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:31,399
if you knew of any kind of anomalist light phenomena

1094
01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:36,800
through shamonic experiences or that you've read about.

1095
01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:40,680
Speaker 1: So I was thinking about this, and.

1096
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:48,159
Speaker 3: I have read references that sort of say in passing

1097
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:51,159
that there was some sort of light phenomenon that was

1098
01:15:51,239 --> 01:15:56,279
observed by the person who was having the shavonic initiation

1099
01:15:57,520 --> 01:16:00,000
call or something like that, but I have an actually

1100
01:16:00,279 --> 01:16:10,479
seen any that go into detail about it. But I'm

1101
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:12,319
just trying to think, like, where do I even start,

1102
01:16:12,439 --> 01:16:16,800
because there's so much that could be said about it. Clearly,

1103
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:24,079
from everything from folklore to artistic representations. Light is heavily

1104
01:16:24,239 --> 01:16:29,119
involved in this, and everything from like depicting holy people

1105
01:16:29,239 --> 01:16:35,239
with halos to lights in the sky, lights in the woods.

1106
01:16:37,680 --> 01:16:40,520
I do have one of my spirit my main spirit

1107
01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:44,479
teachers sometimes will appear as just light and then will

1108
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:51,399
take on a more human life form. Although that wasn't

1109
01:16:51,479 --> 01:17:01,199
part of my like original experiences, but something that I

1110
01:17:01,319 --> 01:17:04,399
thought might be kind of interesting as more like background

1111
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:08,159
context to this is when I was doing my dissertation

1112
01:17:08,319 --> 01:17:13,880
research on mirrors. Obviously, mirrors are shiny, that's like part

1113
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:21,199
of their technological nature, and archaeologically, a lot of the

1114
01:17:21,279 --> 01:17:24,760
context that we find mirrors in are burials, Now, partly

1115
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:29,199
that's just survivorship bias, because burials tend to be underground.

1116
01:17:30,079 --> 01:17:32,840
Sometimes they're in some sort of building that's made of

1117
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:35,199
stone or something like that, and that to some extent

1118
01:17:35,319 --> 01:17:36,199
will protect them.

1119
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:45,079
Speaker 1: But there's also obviously clearly something going on where mirrors

1120
01:17:45,119 --> 01:17:48,880
are deliberately placed in burials, and it's very common for

1121
01:17:49,079 --> 01:17:52,279
archaeologists to just be like, well, yeah, you know, it

1122
01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:52,840
was like a.

1123
01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:55,560
Speaker 3: Precious object because it's a big chuck of metal, and

1124
01:17:57,079 --> 01:17:59,600
you know, so it was like part of their fancy possessions,

1125
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:02,800
and of course they were buried with it. Or sometimes

1126
01:18:02,840 --> 01:18:05,680
you'll get well, of course it's a woman's burial, and

1127
01:18:06,039 --> 01:18:07,680
you know women admirrors, right.

1128
01:18:09,239 --> 01:18:11,760
Speaker 1: But when you look at for example, Japan, you have

1129
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:15,880
these burials that have dozens of mirrors, and they.

1130
01:18:15,760 --> 01:18:19,720
Speaker 3: Will be in many cases propped up vertically along the

1131
01:18:19,840 --> 01:18:22,800
side of the coffin so that the reflective side is

1132
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:26,840
facing in towards the deceased person. Those mirrors are doing

1133
01:18:27,039 --> 01:18:29,760
something that's not just hey, look at me, Look how

1134
01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:32,720
rich I am when I have all this metal. There's

1135
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:36,640
clearly a purpose that those mirrors are supposed to be fulfilling.

1136
01:18:38,119 --> 01:18:40,840
So as I was researching this what's the deal with

1137
01:18:41,960 --> 01:18:45,199
mirrors and the shininess and all that. Well, there's an

1138
01:18:45,279 --> 01:18:49,560
archaeologist named Nicholas Saunders, and he wrote a whole series

1139
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:52,199
of articles. Keep gotten off on other topics now, but

1140
01:18:52,359 --> 01:18:55,640
he wrote a whole series of articles looking at different

1141
01:18:56,800 --> 01:19:05,279
shiny materials in the Americas and comparing the archaeological finds

1142
01:19:05,399 --> 01:19:12,119
and stuff with folklore and anthropological descriptions of cultures in

1143
01:19:12,159 --> 01:19:15,920
the Amazon and Mesoamerica and so on. And what he

1144
01:19:16,039 --> 01:19:18,960
talks a lot about is that there was all over

1145
01:19:19,199 --> 01:19:22,319
both North and South America there is this common theme

1146
01:19:22,600 --> 01:19:28,680
of shininess, which is to say, reflecting light being associated

1147
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:35,039
with spiritual power and spiritual qualities. And this was part

1148
01:19:35,079 --> 01:19:39,800
of why when the Spanish arrived in the America, and

1149
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:42,479
of course they were all like obsessed with gold and stuff,

1150
01:19:42,720 --> 01:19:44,880
and they were, you know, in some of their writings

1151
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:47,479
they talk about how shocked they are that they can

1152
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:50,479
get gold from these people in exchange for just some

1153
01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:53,239
glass beads or something, you know, broken bits of mirror

1154
01:19:53,359 --> 01:19:57,279
things like that from Europe. Well, what Sonders is saying is, yeah,

1155
01:19:57,319 --> 01:20:01,039
but those things had equal value from the perspective of

1156
01:20:01,199 --> 01:20:04,840
the people in the Americas because they're all shiny. And

1157
01:20:05,159 --> 01:20:11,199
so this this shininess factor connected not only human made

1158
01:20:11,239 --> 01:20:15,239
technologies like mirrors and things made out of metals, but

1159
01:20:15,479 --> 01:20:23,680
also things like feathers, shell, pearls, and stones, water, and

1160
01:20:24,119 --> 01:20:30,439
it forms this really complicated web of symbolism and analogy.

1161
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:36,560
And you know, this thing like obsidian is connected to

1162
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:40,479
jaguar eyes because you know they both have this shiny property.

1163
01:20:40,680 --> 01:20:47,079
And I think that that reaction is not just limited

1164
01:20:47,119 --> 01:20:52,319
to the cultures of the Americas. There's something about shininess.

1165
01:20:53,079 --> 01:20:55,880
Humans are like crows that way, right, There's something that

1166
01:20:56,319 --> 01:20:59,800
sparkles and that can actually be used in its own

1167
01:21:00,079 --> 01:21:04,760
right for inducing altered states of consciousness that then allow

1168
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:10,319
for easier communication with spirits. There was a really interesting

1169
01:21:10,479 --> 01:21:14,159
article that I read in grad school. It's the author's

1170
01:21:14,279 --> 01:21:20,159
names are Lindstrom and Christofferson two thousand and one, I think.

1171
01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:22,079
Speaker 1: And.

1172
01:21:23,960 --> 01:21:27,600
Speaker 3: They were looking at what's called animal style art during

1173
01:21:27,720 --> 01:21:32,439
the migration period in Canadavia. So the migration periods so

1174
01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:33,840
called because.

1175
01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:40,560
Speaker 1: It's when Germanic speaking, the people's started moving around Anglo

1176
01:21:40,680 --> 01:21:44,920
Saxons to England, well they angles and saxons to England

1177
01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:49,680
to Britis and people into what's now modern day Germany

1178
01:21:50,039 --> 01:21:54,840
and so on, and so this is like after the

1179
01:21:55,239 --> 01:21:56,399
Roman Empire.

1180
01:21:56,159 --> 01:22:01,479
Speaker 3: Has basically fallen, and now there's opportunity for people to

1181
01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:03,159
like reshuffle basically.

1182
01:22:04,239 --> 01:22:06,760
Speaker 1: And so if you think about what Viking.

1183
01:22:06,640 --> 01:22:09,840
Speaker 3: Art looks like, you know, with the intertwined dragon type

1184
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:13,920
surfit looking pieces, and also you know we see that.

1185
01:22:14,039 --> 01:22:18,159
Speaker 1: Like in in Ireland, for example, and there it's actually

1186
01:22:18,199 --> 01:22:23,800
getting there from Scandinavians. So in this article they make

1187
01:22:23,920 --> 01:22:24,880
the argument that this.

1188
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:28,000
Speaker 3: Style of art is actually a kind of a hypertext

1189
01:22:29,199 --> 01:22:34,720
that either is itself a tool for accessing altered states

1190
01:22:34,760 --> 01:22:40,600
of consciousness or it's sort of incodes experiences that happen

1191
01:22:41,159 --> 01:22:46,199
in altered states of consciousness. And they say that, you know,

1192
01:22:46,239 --> 01:22:48,680
when we see these things now, we see them in

1193
01:22:49,079 --> 01:22:51,960
brightly lit museums or photographs and books and so on,

1194
01:22:52,199 --> 01:22:56,720
But how you would be seeing them in ancient times. Well,

1195
01:22:56,840 --> 01:22:59,560
during the daytime it would be in sunlight, but at

1196
01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:03,039
night would be by firelight. And that moving light that

1197
01:23:03,159 --> 01:23:08,079
comes from firelight creates a sense of movement in the

1198
01:23:08,800 --> 01:23:12,600
art itself, and if you kind of stare at it,

1199
01:23:13,119 --> 01:23:15,159
you can actually go into kind of a light and

1200
01:23:15,279 --> 01:23:18,640
not state and one of the things that they say

1201
01:23:18,680 --> 01:23:20,640
in the article that I found really interesting is they

1202
01:23:20,720 --> 01:23:24,640
said that, you know, we often talk about people who

1203
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:28,560
are more easily slip into those kind of states, as

1204
01:23:28,640 --> 01:23:32,239
though they're more gullible or more susceptible, but they said

1205
01:23:32,319 --> 01:23:36,880
that actually it correlates in psychological studies with people who

1206
01:23:37,039 --> 01:23:40,960
have actually really resilient mental stability.

1207
01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:46,920
Speaker 1: And so a lot of during that particular period in

1208
01:23:47,039 --> 01:23:50,640
Scandinavia and also in Britain, a lot of the places

1209
01:23:50,640 --> 01:23:53,000
where like the main context where you would see this

1210
01:23:53,199 --> 01:23:55,520
art is on these big broaches that were found in

1211
01:23:55,640 --> 01:24:02,399
burials with mature women. So there's something about these women

1212
01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:05,680
that you know, yes, in a sense they're wealthy because

1213
01:24:05,720 --> 01:24:08,199
they have a chunk of expensive material there.

1214
01:24:08,680 --> 01:24:12,560
Speaker 3: But perhaps these are also people who know how to

1215
01:24:12,680 --> 01:24:15,920
read this text so to speak. They know they can

1216
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:20,439
either use it to enter that trans state perhaps, or

1217
01:24:20,640 --> 01:24:24,319
they can perhaps use it as almost like a mnemonic to.

1218
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:30,000
Speaker 1: Recall the lore that was obtained originally in that tran state.

1219
01:24:31,640 --> 01:24:33,920
And so I mentioned all this because all this has

1220
01:24:33,960 --> 01:24:35,880
to do with light. It all has to do with

1221
01:24:39,439 --> 01:24:44,479
our relationship to light and surface, and this is.

1222
01:24:44,520 --> 01:24:49,840
Speaker 3: Something that humans have been deliberately playing with forever. We

1223
01:24:50,039 --> 01:24:53,920
love shiny stuff, and we love to make it more shiny.

1224
01:24:54,439 --> 01:24:59,439
Speaker 1: You know. My my grad school adviser.

1225
01:24:59,079 --> 01:25:02,000
Speaker 3: Wrote this book called How Ancient Europeans Saw the World,

1226
01:25:02,479 --> 01:25:04,840
and he has a section where he talks about this

1227
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:06,960
lighting issue, and he one of the things he mentions

1228
01:25:07,079 --> 01:25:12,000
is that the shapes of ceramic vessels, things that are

1229
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:16,199
flat or square, tend to have a very the side

1230
01:25:16,239 --> 01:25:18,079
that catches the light is just kind of a flat

1231
01:25:18,800 --> 01:25:21,920
lighted area. Besides that aren't catching the light are just

1232
01:25:22,000 --> 01:25:25,079
sort of flat shadowed areas. But when you have curved surfaces,

1233
01:25:25,680 --> 01:25:29,199
the light plays over them. And he talks about how

1234
01:25:29,319 --> 01:25:32,640
the shape of iron age pottery in Europe.

1235
01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:34,840
Speaker 1: It's very curvellinear. It's really.

1236
01:25:36,239 --> 01:25:38,720
Speaker 3: You know, it's narrow based, and then it swells way

1237
01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:40,760
out and gets narrow again and it comes out again.

1238
01:25:41,039 --> 01:25:44,479
And he talks about how he took like a little

1239
01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:47,960
flashlight and played with changing the direction of light and

1240
01:25:48,079 --> 01:25:51,960
stuff and watched how the light played over it, and

1241
01:25:52,039 --> 01:25:56,800
he said, it's really mesmerized my own experience. When I

1242
01:25:56,920 --> 01:25:59,199
was doing my research, I went to the British Museum

1243
01:25:59,520 --> 01:26:03,680
and I was looking at the Celtic mirrors from Britain

1244
01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:07,720
there and this will forever be one of the greatest

1245
01:26:07,720 --> 01:26:10,399
experiences of my life because they have a room that

1246
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:12,840
is hidden behind a door that looks like a bookcase

1247
01:26:13,439 --> 01:26:15,880
and you get to go in the back room and

1248
01:26:16,079 --> 01:26:19,319
like look at these artifacts and they're amazing. One of

1249
01:26:19,399 --> 01:26:24,159
the mirrors from a cyc called Holcombe, where the handle

1250
01:26:24,239 --> 01:26:28,640
attaches to the mirror plate, there's this basically little face

1251
01:26:28,800 --> 01:26:31,079
and there's been a little bit of debate about is

1252
01:26:31,159 --> 01:26:34,960
this a cat face, is this an owl face? Maybe

1253
01:26:35,199 --> 01:26:38,359
perhaps it's meant to kind of change between the two,

1254
01:26:39,960 --> 01:26:45,039
but the standard way to take photographs for archaeological publications

1255
01:26:45,199 --> 01:26:48,279
is to have the light coming from above, and I

1256
01:26:48,359 --> 01:26:54,159
think it's to the left of the artifact. And when

1257
01:26:54,199 --> 01:26:56,840
I actually was able to handle this mirror and change

1258
01:26:56,920 --> 01:27:01,039
the direction of the light, that face completely changed. It's

1259
01:27:01,359 --> 01:27:05,319
it's I don't think there's any doubt that it is

1260
01:27:05,520 --> 01:27:11,239
intended to change. That changingness is part of the point

1261
01:27:11,359 --> 01:27:13,560
of it. So like I do think it is a

1262
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:17,640
face of an Eurasian eagle owl, but that's just my

1263
01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:18,399
personal opinion.

1264
01:27:21,000 --> 01:27:24,439
Speaker 1: So they're there and you think of you know, Celtic

1265
01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:27,840
art too, and it's got these very purbalineer kinds of design.

1266
01:27:28,319 --> 01:27:32,199
That all of this has like light and movement built

1267
01:27:32,279 --> 01:27:37,399
into it. It's a technology for engaging in fact. And

1268
01:27:37,640 --> 01:27:40,920
I so I think that they're even in Europe and

1269
01:27:41,039 --> 01:27:44,239
in Asia, not just in the Americas, and probably Africa too.

1270
01:27:44,279 --> 01:27:47,319
I just don't know as much about it. There's this

1271
01:27:49,720 --> 01:27:54,399
and Oceania and in Australia. If there is this connection

1272
01:27:54,560 --> 01:28:03,039
of light with the these neuminous beings, and I have

1273
01:28:03,159 --> 01:28:06,520
to say that we in living here in Athos County

1274
01:28:07,439 --> 01:28:10,359
are blessed with an abundance.

1275
01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:12,800
Speaker 4: Of weird life and Hamena, Yes we are.

1276
01:28:14,640 --> 01:28:16,560
Speaker 3: I never had any of the sorts that I could

1277
01:28:16,600 --> 01:28:18,600
see with the naked eye until living here, and then

1278
01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:22,119
I started to see the fireflies that are in colors

1279
01:28:22,159 --> 01:28:25,800
that fireflies don't come in mm hmm, and they don't

1280
01:28:26,680 --> 01:28:28,720
necessarily blink on and off like fireflight.

1281
01:28:29,720 --> 01:28:35,800
Speaker 1: Yeah they're really pretty. Probably they are no, yes, but

1282
01:28:35,920 --> 01:28:36,560
they're very pretty.

1283
01:28:36,680 --> 01:28:40,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. The Native Americans always said no, no, no, no,

1284
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:46,199
don't follow those. It's interesting when you were talking about

1285
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:51,800
the use of light and art animal based art. One

1286
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:54,600
of the things I read about fairly recently was in

1287
01:28:54,720 --> 01:28:59,920
the Neolithic caves in France that have the beautiful painting,

1288
01:29:00,279 --> 01:29:05,880
the cave paintings, a lot of them are very far

1289
01:29:06,119 --> 01:29:10,920
underground and in these places that are fairly inaccessible, and

1290
01:29:11,279 --> 01:29:13,600
in order to paint them, of course, there had to

1291
01:29:13,680 --> 01:29:17,479
be torches so that you could see to paint them.

1292
01:29:17,640 --> 01:29:20,880
There was no way natural light was you know, getting

1293
01:29:20,960 --> 01:29:27,760
back there. And so some people have have studied what

1294
01:29:27,920 --> 01:29:32,199
it looks like when you bring torches in, and the

1295
01:29:32,279 --> 01:29:35,920
play of light and the shape of the wall because

1296
01:29:35,920 --> 01:29:39,680
of course it's not perfectly flat, and the way that

1297
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:43,479
they shaded the animals makes it look like they're moving,

1298
01:29:45,439 --> 01:29:50,359
and so that it's almost like that's our first movie,

1299
01:29:51,199 --> 01:29:54,199
you know that that's the first time that a movie

1300
01:29:54,479 --> 01:29:59,600
was made. But it's also of course I start thinking,

1301
01:29:59,640 --> 01:30:08,640
I'm like fire in underground, the oxygen and breathing, and

1302
01:30:09,239 --> 01:30:11,720
all I could think of was, you know, I wonder

1303
01:30:11,800 --> 01:30:16,000
if anyone went into an altered state of consciousness from

1304
01:30:16,079 --> 01:30:20,800
slight hypoxia, because and then you know, by the end

1305
01:30:20,840 --> 01:30:22,600
of the paper they got to that. I'm like, Okay,

1306
01:30:22,720 --> 01:30:25,239
so I wasn't. I wasn't the super smart one who

1307
01:30:25,279 --> 01:30:28,880
figured it out. Uh. But it's one of those things

1308
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:36,199
that could be some sort of initiatory experience there underground

1309
01:30:36,720 --> 01:30:42,920
water will flash up with light, and that had to

1310
01:30:43,039 --> 01:30:51,000
have been an amazing thing. And also bioluminescent fungus and

1311
01:30:51,319 --> 01:30:56,960
in cave systems, and that again had to have been

1312
01:30:57,119 --> 01:30:59,960
something that was that was amazing. And bits of pie

1313
01:31:00,159 --> 01:31:05,039
right in the sandstone or in limestone sending the sparkle

1314
01:31:05,720 --> 01:31:08,319
had to have been an interesting thing. And then you

1315
01:31:08,399 --> 01:31:15,560
know the little firefly guys that aren't really fireflies. I mean,

1316
01:31:15,600 --> 01:31:18,520
who's the first one who followed them? And everybody else

1317
01:31:18,640 --> 01:31:21,039
was like, well, we're not going to do that again,

1318
01:31:22,479 --> 01:31:26,920
so that it becomes this tradition. Well Jim followed him

1319
01:31:27,079 --> 01:31:31,560
and look what happened to him, never saw him again,

1320
01:31:31,960 --> 01:31:34,039
and so now we're not going to do that.

1321
01:31:34,239 --> 01:31:38,880
Speaker 3: And of course the experience of entering into a cave

1322
01:31:39,199 --> 01:31:44,520
is also part of these shamanic lower world underworld journeys

1323
01:31:44,760 --> 01:31:49,399
that people have, and there's also acoustics that are weird

1324
01:31:49,840 --> 01:31:54,520
in underground. One of the archaeological digs that I went

1325
01:31:54,560 --> 01:31:58,000
on as an undergraduate is at the site of Chavine

1326
01:31:58,079 --> 01:32:00,720
It through and so this is a the pre Inca

1327
01:32:00,840 --> 01:32:05,640
site and it's in the Andes, and it's very interesting

1328
01:32:05,720 --> 01:32:09,439
because there's in their artistic style. There's a mix of

1329
01:32:09,640 --> 01:32:13,920
elements that are from the Amazon, like jaguars and things

1330
01:32:13,960 --> 01:32:18,600
like that, and then from the other side of the Andes,

1331
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:24,600
which is you know, mostly desert and coast right and

1332
01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:27,600
they were a big, you know, hub for trade, and

1333
01:32:27,680 --> 01:32:29,479
it seems like people would come from all over the

1334
01:32:29,520 --> 01:32:31,800
place to this site, which is I mean, it's twelve

1335
01:32:31,840 --> 01:32:33,039
thousand feet up in the mountains.

1336
01:32:33,119 --> 01:32:36,439
Speaker 1: It's up there. It's not easy to access. Even when

1337
01:32:36,479 --> 01:32:42,800
I went there. And they created these they're not technically

1338
01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:46,039
underground because what they did was they built mounds up

1339
01:32:46,880 --> 01:32:47,479
and then they.

1340
01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:51,359
Speaker 3: Built passageways into the mounds. I believe there are some

1341
01:32:51,600 --> 01:32:55,079
passageways that actually do go underground, but mostly they're within

1342
01:32:55,239 --> 01:33:00,800
these mounds. And man, that the is it really plays

1343
01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:03,640
tricks with your head, is the way that founds bounce

1344
01:33:03,680 --> 01:33:07,600
around in there. And they were very sophisticated with putting

1345
01:33:07,680 --> 01:33:12,359
in a little fence for air and light to get in.

1346
01:33:12,560 --> 01:33:17,159
Speaker 1: And so there's one chamber. There's a passageway that goes

1347
01:33:17,199 --> 01:33:18,960
to a chamber, and it has this thing in it

1348
01:33:19,199 --> 01:33:22,520
called the lansolon, which is basically like a slab of

1349
01:33:22,720 --> 01:33:28,279
rock that is kind of like a narrow triangle in shape,

1350
01:33:28,279 --> 01:33:31,800
but it's carved all over with this being that's got

1351
01:33:32,039 --> 01:33:36,159
banged and like serpent hair. That a lot of the

1352
01:33:36,279 --> 01:33:43,520
imagery involves, you know, like intermediate hybrid human snake, human jaguar, human,

1353
01:33:43,600 --> 01:33:46,520
mountain lion kind of imagery.

1354
01:33:47,439 --> 01:33:51,680
Speaker 3: And man, if you saw that thing by torchlight, that

1355
01:33:51,760 --> 01:33:55,279
would scare the gebers out of you, or if not scared,

1356
01:33:55,720 --> 01:33:57,840
depending on how you were prepared, it would be like

1357
01:33:58,039 --> 01:34:02,600
aweed firing, because even seeing it with a little bit

1358
01:34:02,640 --> 01:34:10,720
of electric light was very awe inspiring. And I know

1359
01:34:10,880 --> 01:34:14,079
that the professor that I was working with then as

1360
01:34:14,079 --> 01:34:19,319
an undergrad the has has written a lot about sort

1361
01:34:19,319 --> 01:34:23,399
of the acoustical features of these passages and how that

1362
01:34:23,640 --> 01:34:32,119
could potentially be used in basically giving people these initiatory experiences.

1363
01:34:33,199 --> 01:34:36,319
And we do have imagery in that fight where people

1364
01:34:36,520 --> 01:34:40,319
are or actually probably not people, maybe these spirits.

1365
01:34:40,039 --> 01:34:43,119
Speaker 1: Or gods or something or carryings and pedro pats. So

1366
01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:49,399
that's hallucinogenic. And so there's there's some other images that

1367
01:34:49,520 --> 01:34:51,840
seem to have mucus.

1368
01:34:51,560 --> 01:34:55,640
Speaker 3: Running out of their nose, which is there are Amazonian

1369
01:34:56,079 --> 01:34:59,439
in theagens that you take as a snuff and they

1370
01:34:59,560 --> 01:35:03,800
cause you to just like produce tons of boggers. Basically

1371
01:35:03,920 --> 01:35:07,720
it's pretty gross looking. But so it seems like they

1372
01:35:07,800 --> 01:35:09,560
might have been using in the agents that we're both

1373
01:35:10,039 --> 01:35:12,720
you know, from the from the Amazon, from the rainforest

1374
01:35:12,960 --> 01:35:13,880
as well as.

1375
01:35:15,319 --> 01:35:19,239
Speaker 1: From the desert side. And so you know that again,

1376
01:35:19,560 --> 01:35:21,920
if you're in a dark passageway and there's or or

1377
01:35:21,960 --> 01:35:25,640
there's flickering light and there's crazy sounds and water sounds

1378
01:35:25,680 --> 01:35:27,960
and everything, that's pretty trippy.

1379
01:35:29,119 --> 01:35:34,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah, definitely a change of consciousness.

1380
01:35:35,000 --> 01:35:35,199
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1381
01:35:37,520 --> 01:35:42,880
Speaker 2: Well New Grange is like that, the passage and New Grange.

1382
01:35:42,960 --> 01:35:50,399
That chamber has weird acoustics that will bounce your voice around,

1383
01:35:50,560 --> 01:35:53,479
so if you chant in there, it starts to sound

1384
01:35:53,640 --> 01:35:58,439
like you have extra voices with you. And of course

1385
01:35:58,479 --> 01:36:04,000
it has the opening that light comes in and and

1386
01:36:04,479 --> 01:36:07,319
you know, illuminates the whole place once a year.

1387
01:36:08,079 --> 01:36:11,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, I've never been in New Grange, but that's

1388
01:36:12,159 --> 01:36:13,760
that's a bucket list thing.

1389
01:36:14,439 --> 01:36:22,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for for reals. And then there's a lost

1390
01:36:22,199 --> 01:36:26,720
the thought it went away went flying away. Oh yeah, okay,

1391
01:36:27,319 --> 01:36:32,840
So in theagens. One of the things that I've always

1392
01:36:32,960 --> 01:36:40,319
experienced with in theogens is light, light effects and not

1393
01:36:40,479 --> 01:36:44,000
always everybody else does, but it's one of the things

1394
01:36:44,039 --> 01:36:48,199
that I do notice, and I will see the flashes

1395
01:36:48,239 --> 01:36:50,159
of light, you know. The very first time, I was like,

1396
01:36:50,439 --> 01:36:55,760
it's a cordial like a abrasion. No, it's just looking

1397
01:36:55,960 --> 01:36:59,520
I don't know. And then I was like, girl, no,

1398
01:37:00,239 --> 01:37:04,840
you're fine. You can't always get rid of that twentieth

1399
01:37:05,039 --> 01:37:09,159
century logic that's you know, stuck in there, and so

1400
01:37:09,319 --> 01:37:12,840
you start getting freaked out. But yeah, I always saw light.

1401
01:37:13,239 --> 01:37:16,960
Speaker 3: I've heard that a lot from people talking about light

1402
01:37:17,079 --> 01:37:20,920
and color, and of course color is a property of light.

1403
01:37:21,199 --> 01:37:27,079
Speaker 1: Really, so yeah, oh yeah, I Actually I have had

1404
01:37:27,199 --> 01:37:30,479
experiences with a couple of indigents, but they were not

1405
01:37:35,199 --> 01:37:39,760
They're not the standard ones that you think of, right,

1406
01:37:40,840 --> 01:37:48,319
and only one of them was intentional, so oops, yeah, yeah,

1407
01:37:48,479 --> 01:37:50,399
And it's not that I it's not.

1408
01:37:50,439 --> 01:37:52,640
Speaker 3: So much that I chose not to, it just I

1409
01:37:52,800 --> 01:37:57,119
have not had an opportunity to. I don't view those

1410
01:37:57,199 --> 01:37:59,520
things as purely recreational.

1411
01:38:01,560 --> 01:38:06,000
Speaker 1: Neither do I. Yeah, yeah, and so but the context

1412
01:38:06,079 --> 01:38:08,119
in which I would have had the opportunity would have

1413
01:38:08,199 --> 01:38:12,520
been one where it was not. Ah, there would be

1414
01:38:12,680 --> 01:38:16,279
no opportunity to to have the I mean in theogen right.

1415
01:38:16,359 --> 01:38:21,319
It's theot. It literally means like it. It brings the

1416
01:38:21,399 --> 01:38:27,279
divine right, and that would not have happened, so except

1417
01:38:27,359 --> 01:38:31,399
except with the one that I did do intentionally, but

1418
01:38:31,560 --> 01:38:34,920
that wasn't That one wasn't a didn't produce visual effects.

1419
01:38:38,479 --> 01:38:44,319
So yeah, yeah, but I have heard, you know, from

1420
01:38:44,359 --> 01:38:47,560
people that they, you know, might is part of the

1421
01:38:48,800 --> 01:38:49,880
especially with mushrooms.

1422
01:38:49,920 --> 01:38:52,199
Speaker 4: I've heard that, mm hmm.

1423
01:38:52,880 --> 01:38:56,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, flashes of light happened with with those, although most

1424
01:38:56,319 --> 01:38:58,720
of the time most of what I've ever seen has

1425
01:38:58,760 --> 01:38:59,720
been without that.

1426
01:39:00,640 --> 01:39:05,279
Speaker 1: So yeah, you know, you do.

1427
01:39:05,560 --> 01:39:06,720
Speaker 2: That's just kind of how it goes.

1428
01:39:06,800 --> 01:39:09,960
Speaker 1: I don't need the agents to see this stuff. They

1429
01:39:10,079 --> 01:39:17,880
kind of make it easier easier. Yeah, they're they're they're regardless, so.

1430
01:39:19,359 --> 01:39:25,000
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. That's definitely true. Do you have anything else

1431
01:39:25,079 --> 01:39:29,439
you want to dig into in in this regard?

1432
01:39:30,000 --> 01:39:32,319
Speaker 3: So, I mean, as you can tell, and obviously I

1433
01:39:32,359 --> 01:39:37,279
can go on pretty much endlessly about anthropological stuff and

1434
01:39:37,439 --> 01:39:43,079
samon stuff. I can't think of a specific thing that

1435
01:39:43,239 --> 01:39:45,680
we have like left unaddressed.

1436
01:39:47,800 --> 01:39:52,680
Speaker 2: Yeah that's cool, Well you can always come back. I

1437
01:39:52,960 --> 01:39:56,439
will definitely have you back. There's a lot of stuff

1438
01:39:57,119 --> 01:39:59,239
that we got into that I'm like, oh, we could

1439
01:39:59,279 --> 01:40:01,760
go for another you know, hour or two on that one.

1440
01:40:01,960 --> 01:40:06,640
So yeah, I took notes, and so I would love

1441
01:40:06,720 --> 01:40:07,359
to have you back.

1442
01:40:07,399 --> 01:40:09,920
Speaker 1: Well, I would love to be back. I love these conversations.

1443
01:40:11,840 --> 01:40:16,239
I'm actually I like to I write a lot, and

1444
01:40:16,840 --> 01:40:19,720
I'm not saying I write well. In fact, I don't.

1445
01:40:19,880 --> 01:40:21,119
I write well.

1446
01:40:21,159 --> 01:40:24,439
Speaker 3: All of my practice, all of my writing has been academic,

1447
01:40:24,520 --> 01:40:28,279
and so I can write that style, but it's not

1448
01:40:28,479 --> 01:40:33,880
exactly the most readable. And I have not yet found

1449
01:40:34,039 --> 01:40:40,640
a good voice that's sort of like not super dry

1450
01:40:40,680 --> 01:40:45,640
and boring, but yet you know, scholarly, some people are

1451
01:40:45,680 --> 01:40:48,439
still good at that, and I really struggle with that.

1452
01:40:49,079 --> 01:40:51,079
Speaker 1: But I'm planning on.

1453
01:40:52,560 --> 01:40:55,680
Speaker 3: I'm probably it'll probably be a sub stack, not paywalled,

1454
01:40:56,199 --> 01:41:01,800
but just to write about some of the stuff. So

1455
01:41:02,039 --> 01:41:03,279
if anybody's interested in.

1456
01:41:03,359 --> 01:41:05,640
Speaker 1: That, I don't have it up yet. I'm also working

1457
01:41:05,720 --> 01:41:08,520
on my website, but I am crippled by perfectionism and

1458
01:41:08,720 --> 01:41:12,720
so it's not really yet. But I can give people

1459
01:41:12,760 --> 01:41:15,800
my email address if that's okay, if anybody is just

1460
01:41:15,920 --> 01:41:20,199
interested in this, or if they want to be advised

1461
01:41:20,279 --> 01:41:21,560
when that stuff happens.

1462
01:41:23,640 --> 01:41:29,960
Speaker 3: So my email is forrest weird work at Google or

1463
01:41:30,079 --> 01:41:33,560
gmail dot com. Sorry, so it's f O r E

1464
01:41:33,880 --> 01:41:38,159
S d W y R d w O r K

1465
01:41:38,399 --> 01:41:45,680
for work and just shoot me an email. I'm happy, clearly,

1466
01:41:45,720 --> 01:41:47,720
I'm happy to talk about this stuff, and I'll let

1467
01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:51,359
anybody know if I actually generate any public writing on it.

1468
01:41:53,399 --> 01:41:58,279
I'm also going to be teaching a workshop on how

1469
01:41:58,359 --> 01:41:59,560
to do shamanic journeying.

1470
01:42:00,680 --> 01:42:00,800
Speaker 4: Uh.

1471
01:42:01,399 --> 01:42:07,439
Speaker 3: It should be November fourth, and that will be somewhere

1472
01:42:07,479 --> 01:42:10,039
in the Apps area. But it's a possibility that it

1473
01:42:10,039 --> 01:42:12,039
could be hybrid as well if people zoom in.

1474
01:42:13,359 --> 01:42:16,039
Speaker 1: But we it's limited to eight students, so it's kind

1475
01:42:16,079 --> 01:42:20,159
of like, let me know if you're interested because they can't.

1476
01:42:20,960 --> 01:42:23,279
All right, Well, thank you, Oh you're so welcome. Thank

1477
01:42:23,279 --> 01:42:24,159
you for having me back.

1478
01:42:24,439 --> 01:42:26,600
Speaker 2: Well that's all for this week's episode of the Six

1479
01:42:26,720 --> 01:42:30,479
Degrees of John Keel podcast. If you have any questions

1480
01:42:30,560 --> 01:42:32,960
or thoughts about the podcast, or would like to come

1481
01:42:33,039 --> 01:42:36,319
and talk about your experiences of the paranormal, you can

1482
01:42:36,479 --> 01:42:41,159
contact us at six d JK six seven at gmail

1483
01:42:41,279 --> 01:42:45,640
dot com. We promised even answer you, and we are

1484
01:42:45,800 --> 01:42:47,239
always happy to hear from you.

1485
01:42:48,279 --> 01:42:48,640
Speaker 1: Thank you.

1486
01:43:00,039 --> 01:43:17,319
Speaker 4: I spell

1487
01:43:19,399 --> 01:43:19,439
Speaker 1: And