WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.680 You're listening to an airwave media podcast. 2 00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:08.000 Monster Talk is supported by listeners like you. Find out 3 00:00:08.080 --> 00:00:10.679 how you can contribute via Patreon or with reviews at 4 00:00:10.720 --> 00:00:14.960 monster talk dot org, forge slash support. Your contributions, large 5 00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:20.000 or small, make a huge difference. Thanks. One of the 6 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:23.079 most satisfying aspects of researching monsters is when you can 7 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:26.679 find interesting facts that have become the focus of legend 8 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:31.039 for reasons I still don't understand. Some historical characters seem 9 00:00:31.079 --> 00:00:34.719 to accrete legends the way old houses collect spider webs. 10 00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:38.799 Such is the case with this week's subject matter, perhaps 11 00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:42.719 the most legendary character of Quebec history yet based on 12 00:00:42.759 --> 00:00:46.079 a very real person. She had a full name and 13 00:00:46.119 --> 00:00:50.880 a short life, but her afterlife has been lengthy and fakend, 14 00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:54.960 giving birth to many many legends. Was she a witch? 15 00:00:55.759 --> 00:00:59.960 Was she a murderer? Poisoner? Hey, let's stop being care 16 00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:03.560 We're going to talk about lecre though. 17 00:01:05.719 --> 00:01:08.400 It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 18 00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:15.920 A giant, hairy creature Mark Ape part Matt in Luckness, 19 00:01:16.040 --> 00:01:18.359 a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake in the 20 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:21.519 Highlands of Scotland. Get the creature known as the Luckness 21 00:01:21.560 --> 00:01:45.120 monster Monstertal. 22 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:49.519 Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm 23 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:53.200 Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner. A really fun thing 24 00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:55.879 about creating Monster Talk is I get to learn stuff 25 00:01:56.400 --> 00:01:59.560 if I'm being honest. If I'm being honest. In many ways, 26 00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:03.640 the self motive force of this show is my insatiable 27 00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:07.159 curiosity about the macabre and the monstrous. Monster Talk gets 28 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:09.199 me in touch with people who've done deep research on 29 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:11.479 topics that I've often never even heard of before. Some 30 00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:14.680 listeners suggest them as an episode topic, and such is 31 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:18.360 the case with today's subject, the woman they call le Corvo. 32 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:22.560 Legends say she killed as many as twenty husbands, that 33 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:25.960 she was a witch, that she was a poisoner, that 34 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:29.159 she consulted with werewolves and other dark forces, that she 35 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:31.439 would come back from beyond the grave and do harm. 36 00:02:31.879 --> 00:02:34.639 But behind all that, it's an interesting historical study of 37 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:38.560 a woman a suspicious death in the middle cage they 38 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:42.879 call the Gibbet. Our guest today is historian Joseph Ganie, 39 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:45.319 and check out the show notes. In addition to the 40 00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:48.599 links to additional research material, he also provides some photos 41 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:52.879 relevant to the story of this notorious figure. Of Quebec History. 42 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:54.599 Monstertal. 43 00:02:56.000 --> 00:02:59.080 We're gonna be talking about an interesting character, but first 44 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:02.960 let's find about you as an interesting character. Who are you, 45 00:03:03.319 --> 00:03:04.240 Joseph Ganie. 46 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:09.599 I am the one, the only, the irreplaceable Joseph Gangy. Yes, indeed, 47 00:03:12.039 --> 00:03:15.080 I'm actually a doctoral student at Lavalle University in Quebec City. 48 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:19.800 I'm originally from Northern Ontario and I'm French Canadian despite 49 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:22.000 the goofy Northern Ontario. Acci and a, is that your 50 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:26.039 friend and the wood Chipper are there? But yeah, no, 51 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:29.240 And I specialize in the Seven Years War, So that's 52 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:33.240 basically the French and Indian War for Americans at lovely 53 00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:39.960 period of nine years. Don't do the math that preceded 54 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:43.199 the American Revolution. So basically there would be no American 55 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:47.680 Revolution without the French in Indian War. And so I'm 56 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:54.080 currently working on. My doctoral thesis is studying military intelligence 57 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:56.639 within the French armies, everything having to do with spies 58 00:03:56.759 --> 00:03:59.439 and gathering information on the enemy. 59 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:03.800 Wow. Interesting, that is interesting. I wish we had time 60 00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:04.400 to go into. 61 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:06.719 That another day. 62 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:10.280 Does anybody so the French and India the Seven Years 63 00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:11.840 Does anybody called the Frindian War? 64 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:16.959 No? But I've once seen a cartoon where they had 65 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:20.800 Americans going, oh no, it's the French French Poodle and 66 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:21.439 Indian War. 67 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:27.560 It's a I like history, but and we do get 68 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:29.639 into it occasionally, and I guess we will be about 69 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:32.199 to get into a little bit. Does this topic have 70 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:33.600 anything to do with war? 71 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:37.319 Honestly, absolutely there is. There is. There is a context 72 00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:42.360 absolutely with that period. First of all, I think like 73 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:45.199 the best way to start is is to kind of 74 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:48.759 back up with with what the actual story is, because 75 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:52.160 the the irony is that this is a very well 76 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:59.160 known story, uh in French Canada without necessarily being accurately known. 77 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:02.839 But outside of French Canada, most people will have heard 78 00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:05.720 of it, probably thanks to the TV show a few 79 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:10.199 years ago Creepy Canada. La Correvo's story actually made the 80 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:12.959 top ten Scariest Canadian. 81 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:14.720 Ghost stories Creepy Canada. 82 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:17.800 Yeah, yeah, I think I forget if it was like 83 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:20.639 late nineties, early two thousands. 84 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:22.199 I have to track it down. That sounds awesome. 85 00:05:22.439 --> 00:05:24.040 So yeah, I. 86 00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:26.920 Was doing some research on this topic and it just 87 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:29.199 seems like we've got the English language scoop on the 88 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:31.959 story by in large because there's just not very much 89 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:34.160 out there. But I did discover that there was a 90 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:37.040 heavy metal band by the same. 91 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:41.360 Name, I believe, so, yes, it's that's really. 92 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:44.199 Good through the magic of editing. I don't think anybody 93 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:45.560 knows who we're talking about yet. 94 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:49.360 I don't think they do either. We're being mysterious about it. 95 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:54.560 So Lcorvo and Joseph, if you could give us her 96 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:55.040 full name? 97 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:59.879 Oh, her full name is Marie jo zift Coivo. 98 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:04.560 And basically does that make her marry Joe Corvo? 99 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:08.720 I guess so. Really, when you think about it. 100 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:15.600 I think that sounds like an Appalachian story from a 101 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:18.399 previous episode. All right, go ahead, sorry. 102 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:20.720 Which I'm actually halfway listening to right. 103 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:23.480 Now, wait till we get done with this interview. That's 104 00:06:23.480 --> 00:06:23.959 my advice. 105 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:27.360 So all right, perfect, Hey, well, I think we ask 106 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:28.639 the big question. Who is she? 107 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:34.319 Well, Mattie joisef Corriveau was traditionally regarded as a witch 108 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:38.800 in French Canadian folklore. She was said to be a 109 00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:43.839 woman that basically would murder her husbands and finally got caught. 110 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:47.879 There are hundreds of versions of her story. The most 111 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:51.480 traditionally she killed two of her husbands, but you have 112 00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:54.519 some versions where she had over twelve where she killed 113 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:58.519 each one in a more sordid manner, from one after another, 114 00:06:58.600 --> 00:07:03.480 whether poisons, abbing, strangling, one of the weirder ones just 115 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:07.720 basically taking a pillow and sitting on her last husband's face. 116 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:10.920 And the idea was that she was a witch who 117 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:14.839 would be peddling in in love potions and poisonous brew 118 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:18.319 and so on. And she finally gets caught and she 119 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:22.439 was punished, and depending on the version you hear, either 120 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:26.240 she was executed by hanging and then placing a gibbet, 121 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:29.519 or she was squarely put in a gibbet, left to 122 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:34.439 die hanging, and then after her death she would basically 123 00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:38.480 be haunting the south shore of Quebec, of the Quebec region, 124 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:43.240 and you would actually have parents telling their kids, come home, 125 00:07:44.199 --> 00:07:47.639 come home earlier, else that Koreivo will get you which 126 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:51.360 and these stories still circulate to this day. And what 127 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:54.040 I find fascinating as well is that I'm French Canadian, 128 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:56.600 but I'm from the next province over. I'm from Ontario, 129 00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:00.199 and as a kid, even I had heard of the story. 130 00:08:00.199 --> 00:08:04.439 This is how infamous it is in French Canadian society. 131 00:08:04.680 --> 00:08:07.639 Are there a lot of French Canadian ghosts. You mentioned 132 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:10.879 Creepy Canada, so obviously they had to flesh out a 133 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:17.519 whole season. Did they did they hit like the Wind 134 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:20.000 to Go? Or like what kind of things did they cover? 135 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:22.519 If you don't mind me asking a TV show. 136 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:27.040 Well, that's for the TV show. They surprisingly had very 137 00:08:27.079 --> 00:08:29.879 little French Canadian folklore. They tended to try to cover 138 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:32.759 Canada from coast to coast, so you have you would 139 00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:37.720 have stories from haunted lighthouses in the Maritimes to strange 140 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:42.679 disappearances in Ontario and and so on. I don't recall 141 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:45.960 there being that many monster stories, unfortunately, but it was 142 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:50.399 a lot of like gray ladies, haunting buildings and so on. Lane. 143 00:08:50.600 --> 00:08:54.879 Yeah, oh, I want to hear about la poutine. 144 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:00.360 By the way, good on you for saying it more 145 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:03.519 or less correctly. Some people will say, like whether we'll 146 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:05.840 actually just stretch it like pootie, and it's like no, no, 147 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:08.759 poots it and it's just spin it out. 148 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:11.559 By the way, it's what's for breakfast, That's what I know. 149 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:14.679 Yeah, oh you can have it in Quebec. Can you 150 00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:17.120 have it for breakfast? Now there's a place that's open 151 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:17.960 twenty four hours? 152 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:21.120 Yeah, yeah, no, they have it. You know, this is 153 00:09:21.159 --> 00:09:24.000 really a weird tangent, but they have it in Detroit too. 154 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:26.440 You can get it at what they like, what we 155 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:30.200 would call it, kind of a diner or greasy spoon. 156 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:33.679 They call a coney Island and so they yeah, you know, yeah, 157 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:36.039 hot dog's chili. But you can get poutin in us 158 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:38.200 of this place. It's a good deal anyway. 159 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:40.879 Fun fact Detroit used to be French. A lot of 160 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:41.639 people don't know that. 161 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:46.039 Yes, yes, yes, I do that because we've talked about 162 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:49.519 the the werewolf of Gross Points and a few other 163 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:51.960 things related to Yeah, and then of course we still 164 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:57.679 haven't covered but I owe us an episode on named Rouge. 165 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:00.240 Yes, indeed, yes, indeed. 166 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:03.480 So many fun things in that whole area there. But 167 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:06.559 how did you get an interest in La Corvo? 168 00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:10.080 Well? It it was a nice coincidence where I was 169 00:10:10.120 --> 00:10:15.000 originally interested by it as a kid because the imagery 170 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:19.159 is quite lively when you think of a woman punished 171 00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:21.799 by being put in a cage or a gibbet. So 172 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:24.080 that already struck my imagination as a kid when I 173 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:26.480 would when we would read about her story in our 174 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:31.720 textbooks in elementary school. But later on as I became 175 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:35.840 a specialist of the French regime in North America, specifically 176 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:39.399 a seven years War. Well turns out that the true 177 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:43.159 story happens in the year seventeen sixty three, which is 178 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:46.879 the end of the French and Udian War. That's where 179 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:52.039 the real story gets fascinating if we backtrack with her life. Essentially, 180 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:56.799 very little is known of mahisho Zeft herself besides the 181 00:10:56.799 --> 00:10:59.480 fact that she was born in seventeen thirty three, so 182 00:10:59.559 --> 00:11:04.320 that would make roughly thirty years old when she was executed. 183 00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:08.480 She had gotten married at the age of sixteen to 184 00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:14.279 her first husband, Charles Bouchal Charles Bouchard with the English pronunciation. 185 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:18.240 As far as we know, they had a happy marriage. 186 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:21.759 They had three children, two daughters and one son, but 187 00:11:21.960 --> 00:11:28.759 he eventually he eventually passed away in the seventeen fifties, 188 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:32.440 I believe, from what seems to have been smallpox or 189 00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:36.879 some disease that caused a great fever. So that kind 190 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:39.600 of breaks that first part of the legend where she 191 00:11:39.639 --> 00:11:42.600 would kill all her husbands one after another. But where 192 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:47.399 it gets interesting is that she remarries. Shortly after she 193 00:11:47.799 --> 00:11:52.879 marries her neighbor Luis de Zier on July twentieth, seventeen 194 00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:57.799 sixty one, and things go off on a rocky start. 195 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:01.639 First of all, we're talking about the seventeen sixties, the 196 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:07.960 early seventeen sixties, when just to recap everyone's history, you 197 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:13.559 have French North America, the Colleague of New France, which 198 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:16.200 stretches roughly across two thirds of the continent. A lot 199 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:20.279 of Americans don't realize the American Midwest was very much French. 200 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:23.559 Just look at your geography. I have Grand Rapids, Michigan, 201 00:12:23.639 --> 00:12:27.320 and Happy Green Bay was actually beavel all these French 202 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:29.960 names you can find around in the American Midwest, all 203 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:36.840 the way down to Louisiana. Now, through war and diplomacy, 204 00:12:37.639 --> 00:12:41.039 that whole territory ended up being carved up between Great 205 00:12:41.080 --> 00:12:47.159 Britain and Spain. Now, Canada was conquered by the British 206 00:12:47.240 --> 00:12:51.559 in seventeen sixty when they took Montreal. And so when 207 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:55.559 that Codevo gets married in seventeen sixty one, the colony 208 00:12:55.639 --> 00:13:00.519 had been British for a year, and so so everyone 209 00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:03.559 is uncertain is the colony going to remain British as 210 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:07.279 France going to get it back through diplomatic negotiations. No 211 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:11.480 one knows for now, But in the meantime she gets 212 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:16.320 married and her husband turns out seems to be unfortunately 213 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:23.440 quite violent, and her father would regularly get into spats 214 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:26.600 with him, and they would actually get quite public. People 215 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:31.120 would be would be talking about these run ins between 216 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:36.200 the two men. But worse than that was that Machholz 217 00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:41.000 effort actually talk to British soldiers and try to seduce 218 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:45.000 them or offer them anything they wanted in exchange for 219 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:48.120 beating up her husband to give him a lesson, And 220 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:55.440 until finally, in January of seventeen January seventeen sixty three, 221 00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:59.240 the twenty eight year old duds Ye is found dead 222 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:05.279 in his barn, supposedly trampled by a horse. Now, at first, 223 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:09.840 no one makes anything of it. They bury his body immediately, 224 00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:15.639 But that's probably what what brought up suspicions was how 225 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:23.440 quickly the family buried the body. Usually in French Canadian 226 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:25.600 society back then, they would wait two or three days 227 00:14:25.639 --> 00:14:28.960 before burying it, and so people were starting to whisper 228 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:32.600 that this might have been a murder. And sure enough, 229 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:33.919 days later. 230 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:36.279 Are you saying that murder is beating a horse death? 231 00:14:40.039 --> 00:14:43.200 Actually this was the reverse, the the the alibi, whether 232 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:44.600 the horse beat the guid to death? 233 00:14:44.679 --> 00:14:47.879 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I say in the popularity though, I 234 00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:55.399 think she's like true, murder's much more exciting. So yeah, yeah, 235 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:57.039 you know, it was like chickens. 236 00:14:57.039 --> 00:14:58.759 You could have said this was murder most foul. 237 00:14:58.879 --> 00:14:59.360 Oh nice. 238 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:02.440 Yeah. 239 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:05.840 So it seems like these two deaths are unrelated. 240 00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:12.320 The unrelated, Yes, indeed, contrary to the. 241 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:13.120 Uh yes, are they related by marriage? 242 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:18.919 Yeah, there is that, yes, yes. In February of that 243 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:22.759 same year, basically there was a military tribunal that was 244 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:28.679 brought about military court investigate the death because so Louis 245 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:32.600 does you was dug up? His body re examined. Sergeant 246 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:36.559 George Fraser of the Fraser's Highlanders had examined the body, 247 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:39.679 and in his report he wrote, and I'm quoting, upon 248 00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:42.440 examining the body of Louis du Z, I found two 249 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:45.759 wounds in his face, one near his upper lip, which 250 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:48.960 penetrated through the flesh and upper jaw. The other wound 251 00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:52.000 a little before the eye, which was about four inches deep. 252 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:54.679 Two other wounds on the left side of his head, 253 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:58.480 which fractured his skull. His lower jaw was fractured without 254 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:01.480 a wound. The wounds on his face and head were 255 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:03.279 about three inches from each other. I am of the 256 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:06.559 opinion that those wounds were the cause of the man's death. 257 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:11.559 Signed George Fraser, fourteenth February seventeen sixty three. And so 258 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:16.200 the court decided that there was a murder, and so 259 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:21.360 they tried both Marijelost and her father, Joseph, because he 260 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:24.000 was the one who had the reputation of getting into 261 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:27.120 fights constantly with his new son in law. 262 00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:31.320 And they didn't they didn't investigate the first death, they 263 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:32.120 didn't revisit that. 264 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:36.879 No, the first death was admitted as being a natural cause. 265 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:40.679 The priest attested to it. So basically, at the end 266 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:44.639 of the tribunal, the autopsy was in February, but the 267 00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:48.919 first tribunal was in March March twenty ninth to April ninth. 268 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:55.639 So on April ninth, the military court concluded that a 269 00:16:55.720 --> 00:17:01.919 murder had been committed and that it was Marijeozest's father fault, Joseph, 270 00:17:01.960 --> 00:17:04.240 and so he was set to be hanged on the 271 00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:10.079 fifteenth Wow. And what's interesting is that she was also 272 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:14.160 seen as being part of the of the murder, so 273 00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:19.119 as to quote the document, the period document. The court 274 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:22.920 is likewise of opinion that Marie Joseph Corriveau, his daughter 275 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:29.119 widow Louis Helena Helena Dudsy, is guilty of knowing of 276 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:33.200 said murder, and doth therefore adjudge her to receive sixty 277 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:36.359 lashes with a cat and nine tales upon her bare 278 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:40.480 back at three different places Visavie under Gallows, upon the 279 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.480 marketplace of Quebec, and in the parish of Saint Valier, 280 00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:46.839 twenty lashes at each place and branded on the left 281 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:51.720 hand with the letter M and the letter M for murderer. Ye. 282 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:56.880 Now there's a giant twist in the story is that 283 00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:00.000 her father is set to be executed on the fifteen 284 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:05.799 of April. Now, just before his execution, he ends up 285 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:09.279 speaking with Father Glapion, who was the superior of the 286 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:15.559 Jesuits in Quebec city, and almost like an Alfred Hitchcock twist, 287 00:18:16.119 --> 00:18:19.519 he confesses that he didn't commit the murder, but he 288 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:23.720 didn't want to go to hell for basically committing suicide 289 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:29.960 through lying ah And so Father Glapion is now stuck 290 00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:35.440 with the choice of revealing what was told to him 291 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:40.359 or leaving an innocent man be executed, and so he 292 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:44.000 obviously tells the local authorities, and so there's a new 293 00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:48.799 trial altogether, which takes place April fifteenth, ironically, the day 294 00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:54.400 that Joseph was supposed to be executed, and they immediately 295 00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:58.640 lay the blame on Marie Joseph. Confession is given and 296 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:01.680 so on, and she is set to be executed three 297 00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:07.440 days later on the eighteenth. And so she was to 298 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.000 be executed on the Plains of Abraham, which are now 299 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:13.160 famous for having been the setting of the battle for 300 00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:16.079 the City of Quebec in seventeen fifty nine, the famous 301 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:19.960 one where both generals died Moulka and Wolf, very famous 302 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:23.119 in Canadian history, even though technically it's a year later 303 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:25.839 in Montreal that Canada gets lost to the British altogether. 304 00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:30.240 But point is, she's said to be executed on the plains, 305 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:32.759 and one's dead. Her body was to be placed in 306 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:36.359 a gibbet and exposed on the south shore of Quebec 307 00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:39.440 in what is now the city of Le v just 308 00:19:39.480 --> 00:19:42.079 across the river. So, just so people have a mental 309 00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:46.000 image of how the region looks geographically, is that you 310 00:19:46.119 --> 00:19:49.200 have the city of Quebec and there's the Saint Lawrence 311 00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:52.960 and right south on the south shore, the Saint Lawrence 312 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.680 is the city of le v that ends in a 313 00:19:56.160 --> 00:20:00.039 point as the river turns northwards towards the ocean, and 314 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:04.519 it's on that point that the cage the Gibbet was 315 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:07.480 exhibited because it was a perfect spot where you could 316 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:10.000 see back in the day, you could actually see it 317 00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:12.599 from both sides of the shore, and anyone coming from 318 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:16.000 villages down the river would come up to the city 319 00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:20.079 and see the cage. Yeah, very gruesome. 320 00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:22.240 Well, I guess the point is it does have a 321 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:23.759 deterrent effect too. 322 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:26.400 If that was the idea. Yeah, yeah, But this is 323 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:31.000 where it becomes fascinating because this was seen as particularly 324 00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:32.279 gruesome by the locals. 325 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:35.480 Now mind you and smelly, I imagine. 326 00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:39.000 Yes, indeed, yeah, because the body was left there for 327 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:43.200 forty two days, which was actually short. And let me 328 00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:50.519 explain is that traditionally, in under French law in the colony, 329 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:56.720 you would punish criminals with hanging, or for particularly nasty crimes, 330 00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:58.799 they would be executed with the wheel. Now it's not 331 00:20:58.839 --> 00:21:02.799 the wheel you're thinking of, the and the medieval stretching 332 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:05.119 wheel where you're strapped and they just basically start your 333 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:07.799 limbs No, this is the wheel where they would strap 334 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:09.640 you on a big on a on a big wagon 335 00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:11.640 wheel and break every bone in your body with an 336 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:14.240 iron mass and basically let the birds peck you to death. 337 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:18.000 So there were there were gruesome punishments in New France. 338 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:18.559 Uh. 339 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:21.920 The other very gruesome one is for suicides. You would 340 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:25.000 actually have your body dragged all the way to the 341 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:29.839 public market, face down and then exposed to public infamy. 342 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:32.960 Wait a minute, like, after you've committed suicide, they dragged 343 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:35.799 you and then put you on on display. 344 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:38.799 Basically look at the coward who took his own life. 345 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:41.079 But if they dragged you face down, wouldn't you be 346 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:42.559 pretty much unrecognizable? 347 00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:45.279 There are many strange. 348 00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:48.440 And I found a hole in their plan, That's what 349 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:48.839 I'm saying. 350 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:51.839 Yeah, I thought they were just buried at crossroads. 351 00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:56.759 Sometimes they would just be abandoned in a in a 352 00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:02.920 an unclaimed field. But point is that these criminals would 353 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:07.119 be exposed at crossroads or in public markets and so on, 354 00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:11.039 but usually just hanging off of a rope. That's about it. 355 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:17.440 But the British had their punishment looked particularly gruesome because 356 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:21.240 of the iron cage, the gibbet. So that was the 357 00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:27.279 extra added creepy factor for the locals, because even though 358 00:22:28.759 --> 00:22:32.039 gibbets had been more or less common in France as 359 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:36.720 well by that period in the eighteenth century, it wasn't 360 00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:39.039 common anymore, and it was never really brought into the 361 00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:42.559 colonies as a practice, So this kind of stuck to 362 00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:45.599 people's minds. And in fact, what's also interesting is that 363 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:49.000 La Corriveau was not the first person put in a gibbet. 364 00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:52.680 There's actually a French soldier in seventeen sixty one that 365 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:56.240 had been caught by the British after a quadruple murder 366 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:59.440 and also put in a gibbet and also inspired his 367 00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:02.519 own legend, but that's probably a story for another day. 368 00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:05.640 All in all, the reason why La Carrevo's case is 369 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:09.359 fascinating is because remember we're at the end of the war, 370 00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:13.440 and in February of seventeen sixty three, a peace treaty 371 00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:18.359 is signed with between France and Great Britain, and so 372 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:21.160 the war is over, and they also confirm that Canada 373 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:26.960 will remain British, and so the temporary governor of Canada, 374 00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:31.319 James Murray, figures, oh, crap I gotta make friends real quick, 375 00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:36.599 and so he orders the cage to be buried. And 376 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:39.000 that's why, even though to us it would seem in 377 00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:41.799 humane seeing this body for forty two days, it was 378 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:45.359 technically really short. Usually bodies were exposed until he would 379 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:48.480 just completely fall apart and there was nothing left to expose. 380 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:52.240 And so that's particular, and that brings us to the 381 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:56.640 second part of her story, because the cage disappears for 382 00:23:56.680 --> 00:24:01.000 about one hundred years until eighteen forty nine or eighteen 383 00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:04.119 fifty one, we're not sure. It's between those those dates. 384 00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:09.440 People were renovating the cemetery in Levy and as they're 385 00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:12.559 digging up, as I recall, I believe they're trying to 386 00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:15.039 make the wall wider, and as they were removing stones, 387 00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:18.480 they stumbled on the cage, which back in the day 388 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:22.039 would have been buried outside of the cemetery. They stumble 389 00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:24.839 on the cage, and all of a sudden, people are 390 00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:28.200 talking about this. And this is a period of time 391 00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:31.839 where people still had memories of their grandparents and they 392 00:24:31.880 --> 00:24:35.279 would say, oh, my grandmother, my grandfather told me about 393 00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:37.440 this lady that was in a cage and in a 394 00:24:37.480 --> 00:24:40.759 gibet that was exhibited. And then people start talking about 395 00:24:40.759 --> 00:24:43.920 the story, and also fascinating that this is a period 396 00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:53.440 in time where Quebec intellectuals are obsessed with writing the 397 00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:56.880 history of the province, are obsessed with writing down the folklore. 398 00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:00.640 Where speaking of ethnography, this was a movement that we're 399 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:03.359 seeing in Europe. In the US. Just think of the 400 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:06.599 Brothers grim for example, just writing down all those old 401 00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:10.200