WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:41.439 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 7 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:45.000 In nineteen ninety two, a star clerk was found shot 8 00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:47.600 to death in broad daylight at the Boot Village in 9 00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:52.200 Saint Charles, Missouri. Nothing was stolen and there was no 10 00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:57.880 sexual assault. This bizarre and seemingly isolated murder was quickly 11 00:00:57.880 --> 00:01:03.000 connected with others in Indianapolis, Wichita, Terre Hate, and Raytown. 12 00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:08.239 The media dubbed the suspect the I seventy serial killer. 13 00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:12.319 He has never been captured and the story quickly fell 14 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:15.879 out of the media's attention, but the cases never went 15 00:01:15.959 --> 00:01:21.040 cold for the officers in those cities. In twenty twenty one, 16 00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:25.120 with the advancements in DNA, Saint Charles Police Captain Raymond 17 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:30.000 Floyd launched a task force, bringing all jurisdictions together along 18 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:33.719 with federal agencies, to take one final crack at solving 19 00:01:33.719 --> 00:01:39.319 the crimes. The task Force selected Bob Ciphers of KMOVTV 20 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:43.040 to follow them along city by city in the hunt 21 00:01:43.079 --> 00:01:48.040 for the killer. Ciphers Anda's KMOV crew produced a seven 22 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:52.480 part award winning series called Chasing the I seventy Serial Killer. 23 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:56.319 Their work led to national exposure of the case in 24 00:01:56.359 --> 00:02:00.799 People magazine and on the Discovery Channel, winning an Edward R. 25 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:06.560 Murrow Award and being nominated for an Emmy. Dead End 26 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:10.400 Inside the Hunt for the I seventy Serial Killer follows 27 00:02:10.439 --> 00:02:12.759 on the work done by the Task Force with the 28 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:17.080 important goal of keeping the story alive in the public eye. 29 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:21.319 New evidence, never before available to the public is revealed 30 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:25.199 here with the hopes of triggering a memory or revealing 31 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:29.280 a new lead. The task Force may be closed, but 32 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:32.639 the drive to find this killer is alive and well. 33 00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:36.560 The book that we're featuring this evening is dead End 34 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:40.719 Inside the Hunt for the I seventy Serial Killer, with 35 00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:46.719 my special guest investigative journalist and author Bob Ciphers. Thank 36 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:49.319 you very much for this interview and welcome to the program. 37 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:50.240 Bob Ciphers. 38 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:54.319 Thank you, Dan, I appreciate it very much. Really on 39 00:02:54.360 --> 00:02:56.960 behalf of the police departments that are working this still 40 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:01.199 after all these years. Incredibly grateful for you for the 41 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:04.159 podcast to get the information out. We think it may be, 42 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:08.719 you know, our last chance after all these years, and 43 00:03:08.759 --> 00:03:11.080 we're really grateful, Thank you, thank you. 44 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:15.120 Let's get to right to this incredible story. It starts 45 00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:19.080 in nineteen ninety two with a murder at boot Village, 46 00:03:19.479 --> 00:03:24.719 Saint Charles, Missouri Police Department and Captain Raymond Floyd. And 47 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:27.560 this is he writes the forward to this book and 48 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:30.479 tells a little bit briefly about the case and what 49 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:35.560 happened to it almost too soon, almost right away, but 50 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:38.840 tell us about the decision to get together again and 51 00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:42.680 re examine this case, and how you became involved in 52 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:44.520 this extraordinary investigation. 53 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:48.800 Yeah too, full bear. Captain Floyd worked in a town 54 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:51.879 called Troy, Missouri, about thirty miles outside of Saint Charles 55 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:55.520 when this occurred, and he always watched the case. He 56 00:03:55.639 --> 00:03:58.159 was always interested in the case. It wasn't his case. 57 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:01.240 And then years later he gets high by Saint Charles 58 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:04.120 and right away he walks in and says, hey, can 59 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:06.599 I help launch something to take a crack at this 60 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:09.199 one last time a task force? And he got the okay. 61 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:13.039 At the same time, I'd been writing long form, magazine 62 00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:17.920 style cold case stories for the CPS television station. Came 63 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:21.160 moving in Saint Louis, and I think Ray saw what 64 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:23.720 I was writing. We did not know each other, but 65 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:25.839 when they got the task force together, they wanted to 66 00:04:25.879 --> 00:04:29.240 have a media person tell their stories and follow them 67 00:04:29.240 --> 00:04:31.920 along for the full process, not just come out and 68 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:34.879 do a one and done that day thing. And Ray 69 00:04:34.920 --> 00:04:37.199 asked me to come out. We got to know each other. 70 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:40.040 We talked. He asked if I was committed to doing it, 71 00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:42.399 and I said I was because I was there that 72 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:44.839 first day in nineteen ninety two when Nancy was killed. 73 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:47.439 And just like Ray followed the case all these years, 74 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:50.399 so did I. And we were at match made in Heaven. 75 00:04:50.439 --> 00:04:54.480 And for the next year I went everywhere with them 76 00:04:54.519 --> 00:04:57.279 and did everything I could, and that's led to the book. 77 00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:01.959 Tell us about, just briefly the murders that occurred in 78 00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:05.279 order you talk about Nancy kits Miller was the first, 79 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:08.639 But tell us about the events because we're talking about 80 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:11.680 a short order rampage of about a month. So tell 81 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:14.480 us what happens first with Nancy kits Miller. 82 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:18.079 Well, it was a Sunday afternoon in May. It was 83 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:20.839 a beautiful day. I was working in the Newsroalm City, 84 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:23.120 but the location was, and the time of day was 85 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:25.800 was a brand new shopping center and a very public 86 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:28.920 place right off the highway and inner State seventy in 87 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:31.040 the middle of the day. I knew there were hundreds 88 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:33.199 of people out there. It's the last place you'd think 89 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:36.199 of for a homicide. I grabbed a photographer and said, 90 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:39.040 let's go. This appears to be unusual. We get out 91 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:41.480 there and boy, the parking lot is swarmed with new 92 00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:44.279 stores and people, like I say, it's a beautiful day. 93 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:47.120 We stake it out. I find a police officer I 94 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:49.079 know later to try to get the scoop on what's 95 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:52.000 going on, and he's shaking his head at me, like, Bob, 96 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:53.920 this is a bad one. You know. What do we 97 00:05:53.959 --> 00:05:56.959 have here? Robbery in the middle of the day, He says, no. 98 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:00.519 I said, is it a sexual assault? No? Oh? I said, well, 99 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:04.160 what's happened here? And it's like, we don't know. Somebody 100 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:06.560 just walked in and shot her and left for no 101 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:09.680 reason at all. And as the years went by then 102 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:13.000 that just became stuck in my mind as an unusual case. 103 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:14.720 I followed it from that point on. 104 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:19.680 You take us to the case of Susan foul full 105 00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:24.519 dour and in Indianapolis. Tell us about what happens with 106 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:28.480 Susan fall Dauer and the particulars of this murder. 107 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:33.160 Well, Robin was first, and that was so bizarre as 108 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:36.360 we went there to meet with the Indiana Appolis Police department. 109 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:39.560 The scene where she was killed was at a Paliss 110 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:42.120 shoe store which is now our Batteries plus store. So 111 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:45.439 you can picture the small square building, just a few 112 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:51.040 parking spots in front, and it was literally connected to 113 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:53.439 a speedway gas station, just a little bit of room 114 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:57.199 in between. You could I walked the steps in like 115 00:06:57.399 --> 00:07:00.040 you know, twenty seconds. It was nothing. And again and 116 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:03.240 middle of the day, all those people at the gas 117 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:07.279 station coming and going, the killer walks into the Pali's 118 00:07:07.279 --> 00:07:10.720 shoe store and leaves. There's no robbery, there's no rape, 119 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:14.399 there's nothing. That was the first killing and police were 120 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:18.040 just dumbfounded, like what's the motive here? How did he 121 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:21.920 get away? How did nobody see him? It became so bizarre. 122 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:24.439 Where does he park a car? You know, it became 123 00:07:24.519 --> 00:07:27.439 so bizarre. They wondered if did he just pull into 124 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:30.560 the gas station and start pumping the gas and walk 125 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:32.720 next door and kill her, and then come back and 126 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:34.839 unload the gas and get in his car and leave. 127 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:38.120 I mean, the timeframe was so tight, there were so 128 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:41.920 many people around, and again middle of the day, it 129 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:44.600 just didn't make sense with no motive. That was the 130 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:46.560 first homicide. 131 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:50.000 When police believe that it may be associated with the robbery. 132 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:53.600 You site that there was very little money taken in 133 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:54.720 that first robbery. 134 00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:58.639 Right So, there's a woman working at the gas station 135 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:02.000 next door to named Lucretia Gullet, who I tracked down. 136 00:08:02.800 --> 00:08:06.360 She got a phone call from the shoe store manager 137 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:08.519 as she was leaving her shift around three o'clock in 138 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:11.519 the afternoon, saying, Hey, I'm trying to reach my manager 139 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:13.560 next door. She's not answering the phone. Can you go 140 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:16.720 over there and make sure everything's okay. Lucretia goes next 141 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:21.519 door and sees the cash register is open. There's nobody 142 00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:25.680 in the store, but money is not taken register. Again, 143 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:29.120 it doesn't make any sense, and that's the way it's 144 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:31.240 going to play out at all these scenes. But it's 145 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:34.039 please show up and they're looking for motives right away. 146 00:08:34.600 --> 00:08:37.200 You know, a woman killed in a business in the 147 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:40.320 middle of the day. They're looking for a robbery initially, 148 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:44.799 but that's not matching up at all. Between two o'clock 149 00:08:44.840 --> 00:08:48.279 and three o'clock that afternoon, Lucretia Gullet is about to 150 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:51.799 get off work. She's the register worker at Speedway gas station, 151 00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:54.279 and she gets a phone call from the regional manager 152 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:58.120 of the Ayles's shoe next door saying, Hey, I can't 153 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:01.039 get a hold of my manager there at the office. 154 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:03.240 I've been training to get her for an hour. Do 155 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:07.279 you mind popping over there making sure she's okay? And Lucretia, 156 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:11.480 you know, walks the twenty steps and looks inside the 157 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:17.279 shoe store and it's basically empty. The cash register is open, 158 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:20.879 there's nobody behind the cash register. Money is in the 159 00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:24.960 cash register. She finds a woman and a child there 160 00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:26.679 trying to get a pair of shoes on, but she 161 00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:30.120 realizes something is not right, and she asked those ladies 162 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:33.320 to leave, and she calls the cops immediately, no idea 163 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:36.240 what has happened here, And the police arrived right away 164 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:39.759 and they found Robin Fuldauer's body. She'd been shot in 165 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:45.080 a back room. Again. No robbery, no rape, no witnesses, 166 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:50.320 no getaway. Middle of the day, very busy area, gas 167 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:53.039 station connected. Did he pull in and get gas and 168 00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:54.799 walk next door and shoot and kill her and go 169 00:09:54.879 --> 00:09:56.879 back to his car and pull the tank, pull the 170 00:09:56.919 --> 00:10:00.559 gas can out and leave. Where's to get a a vehicle? 171 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:03.320 There were only a few parking spots there. It was 172 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:06.399 just it was off the wall, bizarre. 173 00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:11.399 I asked the question about robbery. What was unusual about 174 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:14.080 if if robbery was any part of the motive, a 175 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:18.320 robbery gone bad, what was one of the circumstances that 176 00:10:18.519 --> 00:10:19.720 police noticed right away? 177 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:22.639 I just think when they walked in right away for 178 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:26.799 a business homicide, the first thing they're thinking is is 179 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:30.799 a robbery? And that was ruled out immediately once they 180 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:33.759 realized there was money in the cash register and it 181 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:36.399 appeared nothing had been taken. And then the second thing 182 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:38.519 you're going to look at is what was she? Was 183 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:41.799 she raped? Was there a sexual assault? No, there was 184 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:45.360 none of that. You know, you know, you start going 185 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:48.080 down the list of what the possibilities were, just like 186 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:51.320 it came in Saint Charles later, just like it came 187 00:10:51.399 --> 00:10:54.879 in with Gita and Tara Hate and Raytown. The things 188 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:58.759 that make usual sense in these things were not happening here, 189 00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:02.240 We're not happening and that really started raising some red 190 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:03.240 flags for police. 191 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:07.320 Tell us about what police do and then what do 192 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:08.159 police learn? 193 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:12.600 Shortly after, well, I guess of all the bizarre things 194 00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:16.039 that happened in this case was right after the Indianapolis homicide. 195 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:20.559 A couple days later, we're in Wichita. I mean, you 196 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:23.960 don't make that drive by accident. This is going across 197 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:27.519 the country. This is going I think six seven hundred 198 00:11:27.639 --> 00:11:32.960 miles right. And at Wichita there's a man looking at 199 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:36.919 it's a wedding store, tuxedo store. A man wants to 200 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:39.080 go to a wedding that night at seven o'clock and 201 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:42.279 he needs a cumber bund. The store closes at six. 202 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:46.440 He calls the store and says, listen, I'm running five 203 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:49.399 minutes late. I'll be there at six oh five. I 204 00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:51.679 need a cumber bund for a seven o'clock wedding. Do 205 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:56.039 you mind staying open for me? Two women inside, Patricia Smith, 206 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:59.519 Patricia Majors. They say, yeah, we'll stay open, come on buy. 207 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:02.879 So six o'clock hits. They're ready to close, and they 208 00:12:02.919 --> 00:12:05.759 wait a couple minutes, and sure enough, a man enters 209 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:08.840 the store, but the man is not looking for a 210 00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:12.759 cumber bund. The man is a killer, yeah, and he 211 00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:15.679 takes the women into a back room, shoots him and 212 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:20.559 kills him, doesn't take take any money. There's no sexual assault, 213 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:24.080 and he prepares to leave the store, and then guess 214 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:27.399 who comes in the man looking for the cumber bund. Well, 215 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:31.080 now we have an eyewitness. Now there is between the 216 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:36.039 dead bodies and the door where the cumberman is, and 217 00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:40.039 there's this thirty seconds of life changing things happening for 218 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:42.919 a lot of people here. The killer tries to get 219 00:12:42.919 --> 00:12:45.039 the cumber bun man to come on back to the 220 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:48.399 back room, says he won't hurt him. The comber man 221 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:52.320 sees a gun inside a wedding veil, senses something is 222 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:56.279 wrong and chalks his way out out of the store 223 00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:59.879 and flees. A lot happened there. But we have two 224 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:02.639 dead bodies. Again, we have no robbery. Again, we have 225 00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:06.639 no sexual assault. But the police aren't putting this together yet. 226 00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:09.799 Indianapolis has their own case. There's no reason to think 227 00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:13.200 of Wichita case, seven hundred miles away, two days later 228 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:15.279 is their case. But it was. 229 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:21.039 What happens next The police obviously investigate. They have leads, 230 00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:24.480 they have some witnesses. They believe that maybe the perpetrator. 231 00:13:25.240 --> 00:13:28.399 But as they proceed, where does the killer go? 232 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:32.720 The killer turns around, He goes back to Indiana. And 233 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:35.639 this is why the FBI profilers in Chuanticle believe the 234 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:39.279 killer came from the Indiana area, because their profile is 235 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:42.879 for serial killers. They always wind up back at home home. 236 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:47.159 He leaves Wichita, comes right back to Indiana, Indiana, and 237 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:50.960 goes to Terre Haute, and he kills again again. There's 238 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:54.720 no robbery again, there's no rape this time though. The 239 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:58.679 victim is a male and not a female. However, the 240 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:01.879 male's name is Mick McCown. He had long hair, he 241 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:05.919 may have had a ponytail. The store's name was Sylvius, 242 00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:11.519 a female brand. And he's in the store for a 243 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:16.919 short time and perhaps he sees that McK McCown is 244 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:20.399 not a female. He does not have a forceful take 245 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:22.279 her to the back room like the other women. He 246 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:25.039 shoots Mick McCown on the spot, leaves him for dead, 247 00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:30.320 and flees. Doesn't take much money again. However, at that scene, 248 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:34.440 one thing is missing Mick McCown's wallet. Now, please don't 249 00:14:34.480 --> 00:14:36.559 know if the killer took the wallet or if Mick 250 00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:39.559 McCown had left the wallet someplace else. They couldn't find 251 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:42.080 it anyplace else. The families said he always had it. 252 00:14:42.919 --> 00:14:47.039 If that wallet is missing, it's a key piece in 253 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:50.679 this case dan because back in the nineties, DNA was 254 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.440 simply semen in saliva. He's just walking and shooting somebody 255 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:57.879 and leaving. He's not leaving semen in saliva. But now DNA, 256 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:01.360 thirty years later, with technology that has advanced to what's 257 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:07.399 called touch or handler DNA. So if he pulled Mick 258 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:12.120 McCown's wallet out of his pants, let's say they were 259 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:17.320 in there and police still had those pants. If they did, 260 00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:20.679 there'd be some fingerprints, if you will, or some DNA 261 00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:25.639 handler DNA on those pants. So a few months ago, 262 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:29.519 I'm out golfing with Brad Rumsey, who's the lead detective 263 00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:32.519 on the case for Tara Hope. We're talking about the DNA, 264 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:36.879 and somewhere in the middle of the dance, saying, boy, 265 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:39.480 it would just be great if we had those pants 266 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:43.399 after all these years. Brad just looked at me and smiled, 267 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:49.080 I got him. I got them. 268 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:52.120 So there's a hope there. Let's get back the changes. 269 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:56.399 Let's get back to the narrative. Let's get back to Raytown, 270 00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:58.559 because this killer isn't finished. 271 00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:02.799 No Town is a very sad case, but maybe the 272 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:05.840 one that leads to the resolution of this if it's 273 00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:09.480 all said and done. It's a shopping center, an older 274 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:11.879 strip mall, not like the one in Saint Charles for 275 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:16.600 Nancy Kitts Miller, and a well dressed, preppy looking man, 276 00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:20.000 probably a little more uppstyle than that shopping center might 277 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:25.080 usually receive, walks right up to a video store and 278 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:28.519 stares in the window like he's scoping it out. And 279 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:31.080 the owner of that store, a man named Tim Hickman, 280 00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:33.320 comes and looks in the window, looks out the window 281 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:36.879 and sees the man staring at him, a well dressed man, 282 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:41.000 a young, preppy looking guy, and they stare at each other. 283 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:43.960 Tim says, for probably ten seconds, he's wondering if the 284 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:46.039 guy's coming in. You know, why is the guy just 285 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:48.159 staring through the window. It's a video store. Do you 286 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:50.720 want to move or not? Well, the man then leaves, 287 00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:53.519 he doesn't come in, and Tim thinks nothing about it, 288 00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:57.360 and thirty seconds later in the store, right next to him, 289 00:16:57.399 --> 00:16:59.679 on the end of the strip mall. He hears pop pop, 290 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:03.440 pop pop, and he realizes what is that? Is that 291 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.880 a shooting. Tim runs quickly next door and sees the 292 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.759 woman's body, Sarah Blessing, laying in a pool of blood. 293 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:14.640 She's been shot. And he quickly then turns to the 294 00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:18.039 end of those buildings and sees the same man who 295 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:21.839 he saw staring in his window, running quickly up a 296 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:26.319 very very very steep hill to get away. So Tim 297 00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:30.119 Hickman eyeballs this guy. He's seen this guy. He stared 298 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:32.759 at this guy. He still sees this guy's face and 299 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:37.519 his dreams every night. And thirty years later and meeting 300 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:42.079 Tim and asking him about that day and what he saw, 301 00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:45.960 he can barely speak. He can barely describe it without crying. 302 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:51.200 It's heartbreaking. You talk about victims besides the people who've 303 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:53.960 lost their lives and the family members who are left grieving. 304 00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:59.160 Tim Hickman has been affected by this, too, shaken by this, 305 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:02.759 but he's got this picture in his mind. He has 306 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:04.359 seen and stared down the killer. 307 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:09.440 Let's talk about this task force that is organized, this 308 00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:15.039 group of specialized investigators detectives who is brought into this 309 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:20.200 investigation along with yourself and what is the first order 310 00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:21.640 of business. 311 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:26.400 Well, we brought in all the detectives retired who originally 312 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:29.000 handle the case, the new detectives to handle the case 313 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:36.480 now FBI, DNA ATF and went city to city trying 314 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:40.720 to put the brains together and find some common denominators. 315 00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:43.880 They wanted to get up to speed on technology. Ray 316 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:49.400 Floyd organized a computer system where now all these cities 317 00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:52.359 kept their own private portal web page were when tips 318 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:55.200 come in and phone calls come in each day. If 319 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:58.559 something comes in in Wichita, they see it in ray Town. 320 00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:02.720 Same with Indianapolis to Saint Charles or whatever. They're working 321 00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:06.880 as the team now instead of their own individual departments 322 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:11.640 chasing down a case, but they're staying on it. There's 323 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:15.920 a woman in Saint Charles named Kelly Rhodes. Kelly was 324 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:18.440 just a baby when this was happening thirty years ago, 325 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:22.359 and she has one job every day, and one job 326 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:27.039 only this case. And as I was traveling on a 327 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:29.759 media tour a couple months ago when the book was 328 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:32.640 first launched, I was in one of the cities on 329 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:37.039 a cold, frozen day, and who pops in there but 330 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:41.599 Kelly Roads crossing state lines and Kelly Rose is eight 331 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:45.839 months pregnant. And I left there shaking my head, thinking, 332 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:49.640 you know what, what an incredible message. If the public knew, 333 00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:53.599 here's this case thirty years old, here's a detective who 334 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:58.039 just wasn't even a baby. Then she's handling it. Now, 335 00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:02.000 she's eight months pregnant. On this cold winter, icy day, 336 00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:05.279 she's traveling across the country to swap notes with one 337 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:09.680 of the homicide scene detectives. They are not giving up. 338 00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:14.599 They are full on this boy. It's just an honor 339 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:17.559 to meet some of these people and see the determination. 340 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:21.119 If the public knew, they would be so proud. 341 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:26.400 Let's get to how police take a look at whatever 342 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:30.400 evidence they do have. What I'm talking about is ballistics, 343 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:34.599 the composite drawings that were made. There are at least 344 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:37.319 a couple of witnesses that talk about something specific of 345 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:41.039 red hair for the perpetrator possibly, so tell us about 346 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:45.000 what is gained or not gained from composite drawings and 347 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:48.759 also what do they determine from ballistics. 348 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:53.079 Let's talk about the witnesses first. There's two. There's the 349 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:58.240 cumberbun Man and there is Tim Hickman. The cumberbun Man 350 00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:04.640 has been so emotionally hurt by what happened at this scene. 351 00:21:05.319 --> 00:21:09.440 He immediately has had health issues and mental issues, and 352 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:12.319 the police departments have said he's really not of assistance 353 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:16.400 to them. It's very sad. It's just again like Tim Hickman, 354 00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:20.440 what a scene can do to you to your mind. 355 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:24.720 Although he had a composite sketch he gave the police originally, 356 00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:27.720 it's really been of no help since then. So Tim 357 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:32.720 Hickman in ray Town is your best witness as far 358 00:21:32.759 --> 00:21:37.480 as the composite sketches AI has given the police department 359 00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:41.839 or has produced a new composite sketch for them. The 360 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:44.839 man is basically described. If you look at these sketches, 361 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:47.519 Tim Hickman has the best word. You know. He was 362 00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:49.960 a preppy looking guy. And this is going to appear 363 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:52.880 again later in the Brosman killings or other things the 364 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:56.200 police departments look at. A man was arrested for some 365 00:21:56.359 --> 00:21:59.319 killings in it the Internet and Greenway a couple of 366 00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:03.079 years ago serial killings, and police were quickly looking to 367 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:05.599 see if this could be a suspect for them, and 368 00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:08.880 he was not. But the real key for the evidence 369 00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:13.000 is the gun again we talk about this story made 370 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:15.759 no sense with the robberies and the no rapes. The 371 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:18.799 gun is just the off the wall story here. The 372 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:22.039 killer's gun is a called an irma workie. It's a 373 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:29.559 nineteen eighteen German military war target pistol that barely functioned 374 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:32.680 one hundred years ago. It's not the kind of gun 375 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:34.920 you'd take on a murders free It's not the kind 376 00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:36.880 of gun that's been you'd buy in the back of 377 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:39.240 somebody's trunk on the bad side of town to go 378 00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:43.160 kill somebody. Where do you get this gun? A German 379 00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:47.680 Navy target pistol, Where do you get this gun? Police 380 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:49.920 think this gun had to be handed down like a 381 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:53.079 family air room. The killer must have had a grandfather, 382 00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:58.680 a great grandfather somehow in the German service or something, 383 00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:02.519 and they're hoping that somebody knows somebody or hears something 384 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:05.480 about boy I knew a guy that had this goofy gun. 385 00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:08.079 You look at this gun, it's not the kind of 386 00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:12.119 gun you've ever seen before. It's so rare. But once 387 00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:18.319 we had the killings in Indy, Wichita tear a Hote, 388 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.279 they still hadn't put two and two together. Each city 389 00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:24.079 just had their own homicide saying ballistics, but they didn't 390 00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:28.079 know that. Once Saint Charles hit, that's when they put 391 00:23:28.119 --> 00:23:31.599 the ballistics together. That's when I got the first call 392 00:23:31.880 --> 00:23:35.720 thirty some years ago, Bob, come on out here. We 393 00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:38.480 got something on this gun that you're just not gonna believe. 394 00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:41.200 And I get out there and it's like, you got 395 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:43.960 to be kidding me. You've got to be kidding me. 396 00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:49.480 This can't be the gun. It was hard to believe, 397 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:50.039 but it was. 398 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:53.720 You talk about the gun some more in this book, 399 00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:57.039 about the almost a foot long barrel on this thing, 400 00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:01.480 and then also the characteristics of this gun reputation and 401 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:04.279