Speaker 1: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 1: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 1: written about them. Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
Speaker 1: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 1: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 1: journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety two, a star clerk was found shot
Speaker 2: to death in broad daylight at the Boot Village in
Speaker 2: Saint Charles, Missouri. Nothing was stolen and there was no
Speaker 2: sexual assault. This bizarre and seemingly isolated murder was quickly
Speaker 2: connected with others in Indianapolis, Wichita, Terre Hate, and Raytown.
Speaker 2: The media dubbed the suspect the I seventy serial killer.
Speaker 2: He has never been captured and the story quickly fell
Speaker 2: out of the media's attention, but the cases never went
Speaker 2: cold for the officers in those cities. In twenty twenty one,
Speaker 2: with the advancements in DNA, Saint Charles Police Captain Raymond
Speaker 2: Floyd launched a task force, bringing all jurisdictions together along
Speaker 2: with federal agencies, to take one final crack at solving
Speaker 2: the crimes. The task Force selected Bob Ciphers of KMOVTV
Speaker 2: to follow them along city by city in the hunt
Speaker 2: for the killer. Ciphers Anda's KMOV crew produced a seven
Speaker 2: part award winning series called Chasing the I seventy Serial Killer.
Speaker 2: Their work led to national exposure of the case in
Speaker 2: People magazine and on the Discovery Channel, winning an Edward R.
Speaker 2: Murrow Award and being nominated for an Emmy. Dead End
Speaker 2: Inside the Hunt for the I seventy Serial Killer follows
Speaker 2: on the work done by the Task Force with the
Speaker 2: important goal of keeping the story alive in the public eye.
Speaker 2: New evidence, never before available to the public is revealed
Speaker 2: here with the hopes of triggering a memory or revealing
Speaker 2: a new lead. The task Force may be closed, but
Speaker 2: the drive to find this killer is alive and well.
Speaker 2: The book that we're featuring this evening is dead End
Speaker 2: Inside the Hunt for the I seventy Serial Killer, with
Speaker 2: my special guest investigative journalist and author Bob Ciphers. Thank
Speaker 2: you very much for this interview and welcome to the program.
Speaker 2: Bob Ciphers.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Dan, I appreciate it very much. Really on
Speaker 3: behalf of the police departments that are working this still
Speaker 3: after all these years. Incredibly grateful for you for the
Speaker 3: podcast to get the information out. We think it may be,
Speaker 3: you know, our last chance after all these years, and
Speaker 3: we're really grateful, Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2: Let's get to right to this incredible story. It starts
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety two with a murder at boot Village,
Speaker 2: Saint Charles, Missouri Police Department and Captain Raymond Floyd. And
Speaker 2: this is he writes the forward to this book and
Speaker 2: tells a little bit briefly about the case and what
Speaker 2: happened to it almost too soon, almost right away, but
Speaker 2: tell us about the decision to get together again and
Speaker 2: re examine this case, and how you became involved in
Speaker 2: this extraordinary investigation.
Speaker 3: Yeah too, full bear. Captain Floyd worked in a town
Speaker 3: called Troy, Missouri, about thirty miles outside of Saint Charles
Speaker 3: when this occurred, and he always watched the case. He
Speaker 3: was always interested in the case. It wasn't his case.
Speaker 3: And then years later he gets high by Saint Charles
Speaker 3: and right away he walks in and says, hey, can
Speaker 3: I help launch something to take a crack at this
Speaker 3: one last time a task force? And he got the okay.
Speaker 3: At the same time, I'd been writing long form, magazine
Speaker 3: style cold case stories for the CPS television station. Came
Speaker 3: moving in Saint Louis, and I think Ray saw what
Speaker 3: I was writing. We did not know each other, but
Speaker 3: when they got the task force together, they wanted to
Speaker 3: have a media person tell their stories and follow them
Speaker 3: along for the full process, not just come out and
Speaker 3: do a one and done that day thing. And Ray
Speaker 3: asked me to come out. We got to know each other.
Speaker 3: We talked. He asked if I was committed to doing it,
Speaker 3: and I said I was because I was there that
Speaker 3: first day in nineteen ninety two when Nancy was killed.
Speaker 3: And just like Ray followed the case all these years,
Speaker 3: so did I. And we were at match made in Heaven.
Speaker 3: And for the next year I went everywhere with them
Speaker 3: and did everything I could, and that's led to the book.
Speaker 2: Tell us about, just briefly the murders that occurred in
Speaker 2: order you talk about Nancy kits Miller was the first,
Speaker 2: But tell us about the events because we're talking about
Speaker 2: a short order rampage of about a month. So tell
Speaker 2: us what happens first with Nancy kits Miller.
Speaker 3: Well, it was a Sunday afternoon in May. It was
Speaker 3: a beautiful day. I was working in the Newsroalm City,
Speaker 3: but the location was, and the time of day was
Speaker 3: was a brand new shopping center and a very public
Speaker 3: place right off the highway and inner State seventy in
Speaker 3: the middle of the day. I knew there were hundreds
Speaker 3: of people out there. It's the last place you'd think
Speaker 3: of for a homicide. I grabbed a photographer and said,
Speaker 3: let's go. This appears to be unusual. We get out
Speaker 3: there and boy, the parking lot is swarmed with new
Speaker 3: stores and people, like I say, it's a beautiful day.
Speaker 3: We stake it out. I find a police officer I
Speaker 3: know later to try to get the scoop on what's
Speaker 3: going on, and he's shaking his head at me, like, Bob,
Speaker 3: this is a bad one. You know. What do we
Speaker 3: have here? Robbery in the middle of the day, He says, no.
Speaker 3: I said, is it a sexual assault? No? Oh? I said, well,
Speaker 3: what's happened here? And it's like, we don't know. Somebody
Speaker 3: just walked in and shot her and left for no
Speaker 3: reason at all. And as the years went by then
Speaker 3: that just became stuck in my mind as an unusual case.
Speaker 3: I followed it from that point on.
Speaker 2: You take us to the case of Susan foul full
Speaker 2: dour and in Indianapolis. Tell us about what happens with
Speaker 2: Susan fall Dauer and the particulars of this murder.
Speaker 3: Well, Robin was first, and that was so bizarre as
Speaker 3: we went there to meet with the Indiana Appolis Police department.
Speaker 3: The scene where she was killed was at a Paliss
Speaker 3: shoe store which is now our Batteries plus store. So
Speaker 3: you can picture the small square building, just a few
Speaker 3: parking spots in front, and it was literally connected to
Speaker 3: a speedway gas station, just a little bit of room
Speaker 3: in between. You could I walked the steps in like
Speaker 3: you know, twenty seconds. It was nothing. And again and
Speaker 3: middle of the day, all those people at the gas
Speaker 3: station coming and going, the killer walks into the Pali's
Speaker 3: shoe store and leaves. There's no robbery, there's no rape,
Speaker 3: there's nothing. That was the first killing and police were
Speaker 3: just dumbfounded, like what's the motive here? How did he
Speaker 3: get away? How did nobody see him? It became so bizarre.
Speaker 3: Where does he park a car? You know, it became
Speaker 3: so bizarre. They wondered if did he just pull into
Speaker 3: the gas station and start pumping the gas and walk
Speaker 3: next door and kill her, and then come back and
Speaker 3: unload the gas and get in his car and leave.
Speaker 3: I mean, the timeframe was so tight, there were so
Speaker 3: many people around, and again middle of the day, it
Speaker 3: just didn't make sense with no motive. That was the
Speaker 3: first homicide.
Speaker 2: When police believe that it may be associated with the robbery.
Speaker 2: You site that there was very little money taken in
Speaker 2: that first robbery.
Speaker 3: Right So, there's a woman working at the gas station
Speaker 3: next door to named Lucretia Gullet, who I tracked down.
Speaker 3: She got a phone call from the shoe store manager
Speaker 3: as she was leaving her shift around three o'clock in
Speaker 3: the afternoon, saying, Hey, I'm trying to reach my manager
Speaker 3: next door. She's not answering the phone. Can you go
Speaker 3: over there and make sure everything's okay. Lucretia goes next
Speaker 3: door and sees the cash register is open. There's nobody
Speaker 3: in the store, but money is not taken register. Again,
Speaker 3: it doesn't make any sense, and that's the way it's
Speaker 3: going to play out at all these scenes. But it's
Speaker 3: please show up and they're looking for motives right away.
Speaker 3: You know, a woman killed in a business in the
Speaker 3: middle of the day. They're looking for a robbery initially,
Speaker 3: but that's not matching up at all. Between two o'clock
Speaker 3: and three o'clock that afternoon, Lucretia Gullet is about to
Speaker 3: get off work. She's the register worker at Speedway gas station,
Speaker 3: and she gets a phone call from the regional manager
Speaker 3: of the Ayles's shoe next door saying, Hey, I can't
Speaker 3: get a hold of my manager there at the office.
Speaker 3: I've been training to get her for an hour. Do
Speaker 3: you mind popping over there making sure she's okay? And Lucretia,
Speaker 3: you know, walks the twenty steps and looks inside the
Speaker 3: shoe store and it's basically empty. The cash register is open,
Speaker 3: there's nobody behind the cash register. Money is in the
Speaker 3: cash register. She finds a woman and a child there
Speaker 3: trying to get a pair of shoes on, but she
Speaker 3: realizes something is not right, and she asked those ladies
Speaker 3: to leave, and she calls the cops immediately, no idea
Speaker 3: what has happened here, And the police arrived right away
Speaker 3: and they found Robin Fuldauer's body. She'd been shot in
Speaker 3: a back room. Again. No robbery, no rape, no witnesses,
Speaker 3: no getaway. Middle of the day, very busy area, gas
Speaker 3: station connected. Did he pull in and get gas and
Speaker 3: walk next door and shoot and kill her and go
Speaker 3: back to his car and pull the tank, pull the
Speaker 3: gas can out and leave. Where's to get a a vehicle?
Speaker 3: There were only a few parking spots there. It was
Speaker 3: just it was off the wall, bizarre.
Speaker 2: I asked the question about robbery. What was unusual about
Speaker 2: if if robbery was any part of the motive, a
Speaker 2: robbery gone bad, what was one of the circumstances that
Speaker 2: police noticed right away?
Speaker 3: I just think when they walked in right away for
Speaker 3: a business homicide, the first thing they're thinking is is
Speaker 3: a robbery? And that was ruled out immediately once they
Speaker 3: realized there was money in the cash register and it
Speaker 3: appeared nothing had been taken. And then the second thing
Speaker 3: you're going to look at is what was she? Was
Speaker 3: she raped? Was there a sexual assault? No, there was
Speaker 3: none of that. You know, you know, you start going
Speaker 3: down the list of what the possibilities were, just like
Speaker 3: it came in Saint Charles later, just like it came
Speaker 3: in with Gita and Tara Hate and Raytown. The things
Speaker 3: that make usual sense in these things were not happening here,
Speaker 3: We're not happening and that really started raising some red
Speaker 3: flags for police.
Speaker 2: Tell us about what police do and then what do
Speaker 2: police learn?
Speaker 3: Shortly after, well, I guess of all the bizarre things
Speaker 3: that happened in this case was right after the Indianapolis homicide.
Speaker 3: A couple days later, we're in Wichita. I mean, you
Speaker 3: don't make that drive by accident. This is going across
Speaker 3: the country. This is going I think six seven hundred
Speaker 3: miles right. And at Wichita there's a man looking at
Speaker 3: it's a wedding store, tuxedo store. A man wants to
Speaker 3: go to a wedding that night at seven o'clock and
Speaker 3: he needs a cumber bund. The store closes at six.
Speaker 3: He calls the store and says, listen, I'm running five
Speaker 3: minutes late. I'll be there at six oh five. I
Speaker 3: need a cumber bund for a seven o'clock wedding. Do
Speaker 3: you mind staying open for me? Two women inside, Patricia Smith,
Speaker 3: Patricia Majors. They say, yeah, we'll stay open, come on buy.
Speaker 3: So six o'clock hits. They're ready to close, and they
Speaker 3: wait a couple minutes, and sure enough, a man enters
Speaker 3: the store, but the man is not looking for a
Speaker 3: cumber bund. The man is a killer, yeah, and he
Speaker 3: takes the women into a back room, shoots him and
Speaker 3: kills him, doesn't take take any money. There's no sexual assault,
Speaker 3: and he prepares to leave the store, and then guess
Speaker 3: who comes in the man looking for the cumber bund. Well,
Speaker 3: now we have an eyewitness. Now there is between the
Speaker 3: dead bodies and the door where the cumberman is, and
Speaker 3: there's this thirty seconds of life changing things happening for
Speaker 3: a lot of people here. The killer tries to get
Speaker 3: the cumber bun man to come on back to the
Speaker 3: back room, says he won't hurt him. The comber man
Speaker 3: sees a gun inside a wedding veil, senses something is
Speaker 3: wrong and chalks his way out out of the store
Speaker 3: and flees. A lot happened there. But we have two
Speaker 3: dead bodies. Again, we have no robbery. Again, we have
Speaker 3: no sexual assault. But the police aren't putting this together yet.
Speaker 3: Indianapolis has their own case. There's no reason to think
Speaker 3: of Wichita case, seven hundred miles away, two days later
Speaker 3: is their case. But it was.
Speaker 2: What happens next The police obviously investigate. They have leads,
Speaker 2: they have some witnesses. They believe that maybe the perpetrator.
Speaker 2: But as they proceed, where does the killer go?
Speaker 3: The killer turns around, He goes back to Indiana. And
Speaker 3: this is why the FBI profilers in Chuanticle believe the
Speaker 3: killer came from the Indiana area, because their profile is
Speaker 3: for serial killers. They always wind up back at home home.
Speaker 3: He leaves Wichita, comes right back to Indiana, Indiana, and
Speaker 3: goes to Terre Haute, and he kills again again. There's
Speaker 3: no robbery again, there's no rape this time though. The
Speaker 3: victim is a male and not a female. However, the
Speaker 3: male's name is Mick McCown. He had long hair, he
Speaker 3: may have had a ponytail. The store's name was Sylvius,
Speaker 3: a female brand. And he's in the store for a
Speaker 3: short time and perhaps he sees that McK McCown is
Speaker 3: not a female. He does not have a forceful take
Speaker 3: her to the back room like the other women. He
Speaker 3: shoots Mick McCown on the spot, leaves him for dead,
Speaker 3: and flees. Doesn't take much money again. However, at that scene,
Speaker 3: one thing is missing Mick McCown's wallet. Now, please don't
Speaker 3: know if the killer took the wallet or if Mick
Speaker 3: McCown had left the wallet someplace else. They couldn't find
Speaker 3: it anyplace else. The families said he always had it.
Speaker 3: If that wallet is missing, it's a key piece in
Speaker 3: this case dan because back in the nineties, DNA was
Speaker 3: simply semen in saliva. He's just walking and shooting somebody
Speaker 3: and leaving. He's not leaving semen in saliva. But now DNA,
Speaker 3: thirty years later, with technology that has advanced to what's
Speaker 3: called touch or handler DNA. So if he pulled Mick
Speaker 3: McCown's wallet out of his pants, let's say they were
Speaker 3: in there and police still had those pants. If they did,
Speaker 3: there'd be some fingerprints, if you will, or some DNA
Speaker 3: handler DNA on those pants. So a few months ago,
Speaker 3: I'm out golfing with Brad Rumsey, who's the lead detective
Speaker 3: on the case for Tara Hope. We're talking about the DNA,
Speaker 3: and somewhere in the middle of the dance, saying, boy,
Speaker 3: it would just be great if we had those pants
Speaker 3: after all these years. Brad just looked at me and smiled,
Speaker 3: I got him. I got them.
Speaker 2: So there's a hope there. Let's get back the changes.
Speaker 2: Let's get back to the narrative. Let's get back to Raytown,
Speaker 2: because this killer isn't finished.
Speaker 3: No Town is a very sad case, but maybe the
Speaker 3: one that leads to the resolution of this if it's
Speaker 3: all said and done. It's a shopping center, an older
Speaker 3: strip mall, not like the one in Saint Charles for
Speaker 3: Nancy Kitts Miller, and a well dressed, preppy looking man,
Speaker 3: probably a little more uppstyle than that shopping center might
Speaker 3: usually receive, walks right up to a video store and
Speaker 3: stares in the window like he's scoping it out. And
Speaker 3: the owner of that store, a man named Tim Hickman,
Speaker 3: comes and looks in the window, looks out the window
Speaker 3: and sees the man staring at him, a well dressed man,
Speaker 3: a young, preppy looking guy, and they stare at each other.
Speaker 3: Tim says, for probably ten seconds, he's wondering if the
Speaker 3: guy's coming in. You know, why is the guy just
Speaker 3: staring through the window. It's a video store. Do you
Speaker 3: want to move or not? Well, the man then leaves,
Speaker 3: he doesn't come in, and Tim thinks nothing about it,
Speaker 3: and thirty seconds later in the store, right next to him,
Speaker 3: on the end of the strip mall. He hears pop pop,
Speaker 3: pop pop, and he realizes what is that? Is that
Speaker 3: a shooting. Tim runs quickly next door and sees the
Speaker 3: woman's body, Sarah Blessing, laying in a pool of blood.
Speaker 3: She's been shot. And he quickly then turns to the
Speaker 3: end of those buildings and sees the same man who
Speaker 3: he saw staring in his window, running quickly up a
Speaker 3: very very very steep hill to get away. So Tim
Speaker 3: Hickman eyeballs this guy. He's seen this guy. He stared
Speaker 3: at this guy. He still sees this guy's face and
Speaker 3: his dreams every night. And thirty years later and meeting
Speaker 3: Tim and asking him about that day and what he saw,
Speaker 3: he can barely speak. He can barely describe it without crying.
Speaker 3: It's heartbreaking. You talk about victims besides the people who've
Speaker 3: lost their lives and the family members who are left grieving.
Speaker 3: Tim Hickman has been affected by this, too, shaken by this,
Speaker 3: but he's got this picture in his mind. He has
Speaker 3: seen and stared down the killer.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about this task force that is organized, this
Speaker 2: group of specialized investigators detectives who is brought into this
Speaker 2: investigation along with yourself and what is the first order
Speaker 2: of business.
Speaker 3: Well, we brought in all the detectives retired who originally
Speaker 3: handle the case, the new detectives to handle the case
Speaker 3: now FBI, DNA ATF and went city to city trying
Speaker 3: to put the brains together and find some common denominators.
Speaker 3: They wanted to get up to speed on technology. Ray
Speaker 3: Floyd organized a computer system where now all these cities
Speaker 3: kept their own private portal web page were when tips
Speaker 3: come in and phone calls come in each day. If
Speaker 3: something comes in in Wichita, they see it in ray Town.
Speaker 3: Same with Indianapolis to Saint Charles or whatever. They're working
Speaker 3: as the team now instead of their own individual departments
Speaker 3: chasing down a case, but they're staying on it. There's
Speaker 3: a woman in Saint Charles named Kelly Rhodes. Kelly was
Speaker 3: just a baby when this was happening thirty years ago,
Speaker 3: and she has one job every day, and one job
Speaker 3: only this case. And as I was traveling on a
Speaker 3: media tour a couple months ago when the book was
Speaker 3: first launched, I was in one of the cities on
Speaker 3: a cold, frozen day, and who pops in there but
Speaker 3: Kelly Roads crossing state lines and Kelly Rose is eight
Speaker 3: months pregnant. And I left there shaking my head, thinking,
Speaker 3: you know what, what an incredible message. If the public knew,
Speaker 3: here's this case thirty years old, here's a detective who
Speaker 3: just wasn't even a baby. Then she's handling it. Now,
Speaker 3: she's eight months pregnant. On this cold winter, icy day,
Speaker 3: she's traveling across the country to swap notes with one
Speaker 3: of the homicide scene detectives. They are not giving up.
Speaker 3: They are full on this boy. It's just an honor
Speaker 3: to meet some of these people and see the determination.
Speaker 3: If the public knew, they would be so proud.
Speaker 2: Let's get to how police take a look at whatever
Speaker 2: evidence they do have. What I'm talking about is ballistics,
Speaker 2: the composite drawings that were made. There are at least
Speaker 2: a couple of witnesses that talk about something specific of
Speaker 2: red hair for the perpetrator possibly, so tell us about
Speaker 2: what is gained or not gained from composite drawings and
Speaker 2: also what do they determine from ballistics.
Speaker 3: Let's talk about the witnesses first. There's two. There's the
Speaker 3: cumberbun Man and there is Tim Hickman. The cumberbun Man
Speaker 3: has been so emotionally hurt by what happened at this scene.
Speaker 3: He immediately has had health issues and mental issues, and
Speaker 3: the police departments have said he's really not of assistance
Speaker 3: to them. It's very sad. It's just again like Tim Hickman,
Speaker 3: what a scene can do to you to your mind.
Speaker 3: Although he had a composite sketch he gave the police originally,
Speaker 3: it's really been of no help since then. So Tim
Speaker 3: Hickman in ray Town is your best witness as far
Speaker 3: as the composite sketches AI has given the police department
Speaker 3: or has produced a new composite sketch for them. The
Speaker 3: man is basically described. If you look at these sketches,
Speaker 3: Tim Hickman has the best word. You know. He was
Speaker 3: a preppy looking guy. And this is going to appear
Speaker 3: again later in the Brosman killings or other things the
Speaker 3: police departments look at. A man was arrested for some
Speaker 3: killings in it the Internet and Greenway a couple of
Speaker 3: years ago serial killings, and police were quickly looking to
Speaker 3: see if this could be a suspect for them, and
Speaker 3: he was not. But the real key for the evidence
Speaker 3: is the gun again we talk about this story made
Speaker 3: no sense with the robberies and the no rapes. The
Speaker 3: gun is just the off the wall story here. The
Speaker 3: killer's gun is a called an irma workie. It's a
Speaker 3: nineteen eighteen German military war target pistol that barely functioned
Speaker 3: one hundred years ago. It's not the kind of gun
Speaker 3: you'd take on a murders free It's not the kind
Speaker 3: of gun that's been you'd buy in the back of
Speaker 3: somebody's trunk on the bad side of town to go
Speaker 3: kill somebody. Where do you get this gun? A German
Speaker 3: Navy target pistol, Where do you get this gun? Police
Speaker 3: think this gun had to be handed down like a
Speaker 3: family air room. The killer must have had a grandfather,
Speaker 3: a great grandfather somehow in the German service or something,
Speaker 3: and they're hoping that somebody knows somebody or hears something
Speaker 3: about boy I knew a guy that had this goofy gun.
Speaker 3: You look at this gun, it's not the kind of
Speaker 3: gun you've ever seen before. It's so rare. But once
Speaker 3: we had the killings in Indy, Wichita tear a Hote,
Speaker 3: they still hadn't put two and two together. Each city
Speaker 3: just had their own homicide saying ballistics, but they didn't
Speaker 3: know that. Once Saint Charles hit, that's when they put
Speaker 3: the ballistics together. That's when I got the first call
Speaker 3: thirty some years ago, Bob, come on out here. We
Speaker 3: got something on this gun that you're just not gonna believe.
Speaker 3: And I get out there and it's like, you got
Speaker 3: to be kidding me. You've got to be kidding me.
Speaker 3: This can't be the gun. It was hard to believe,
Speaker 3: but it was.
Speaker 2: You talk about the gun some more in this book,
Speaker 2: about the almost a foot long barrel on this thing,
Speaker 2: and then also the characteristics of this gun reputation and
Speaker 2: what it had a reputation for, notoriously for.
Speaker 3: Well, it jammed all the time. It just didn't work.
Speaker 3: And you know, when I was told about the gun,
Speaker 3: there was some debate in the police department. We're not
Speaker 3: going to release We're not going to release this to
Speaker 3: the public, and you know, I wasn't going to burn
Speaker 3: the police department or impeded investigation. At the same time, journalistically,
Speaker 3: I kind of took the position of, Hey, I think
Speaker 3: this information has to be out. I mean, this is
Speaker 3: your big clue somebody. The gun is so rare. You
Speaker 3: get this out to the public. Somebody's going to know
Speaker 3: something about this gun. You got to get this out.
Speaker 3: They didn't want to. They thought that would affect the investigation,
Speaker 3: and I never I never put it out out there.
Speaker 3: My bosses knew I had something on the case, but
Speaker 3: I wasn't going to burn the police. And we waited,
Speaker 3: and I know they debated then about the gun. I
Speaker 3: think they listened to me. They didn't really care what
Speaker 3: I said, but it sparked debate, and after a while
Speaker 3: they did decide to release the gun, and as soon
Speaker 3: as they did, the murders stopped. And at first we thought, well,
Speaker 3: if nothing else, we stopped the killings, But then we
Speaker 3: realized we've lost our best lead. Though if he'd have
Speaker 3: kept if he'd have kept killing, somebody would have found
Speaker 3: more ballistics, some more witnesses or whatever. So that was
Speaker 3: a tough one, and I think police looking back think
Speaker 3: they made a mistake. I don't think it was a
Speaker 3: journalistic mistake. I think the public had a right to know.
Speaker 3: The people were fearful at that time. I remember driving
Speaker 3: up and down Highway seventy. This is before you see
Speaker 3: electronic signs on highways and there were posters that were
Speaker 3: stuck on exit signs and on telephone polls and at
Speaker 3: gas stations, look out for the Ice seventy killer. Here's
Speaker 3: our composite sketch. Public was in a panic, and I
Speaker 3: think they had the right to know. But the killing
Speaker 3: stopped at least three year until they may started again
Speaker 3: in Texas.
Speaker 2: Now you talk about one police officer, detective in particular,
Speaker 2: saying this is a mistake because now you've alerted the
Speaker 2: serial killer that you know about his weapon, and so
Speaker 2: all that killer has to do is change weapons. Tell
Speaker 2: us about the first crime in Texas, where it occurs,
Speaker 2: and the particulars that lead police to believe that absolutely
Speaker 2: it's related to the I seventy killings.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the lead detective from Indianapolis that state is the
Speaker 3: lead detectively been in a retirement in all these cases,
Speaker 3: man named Mike Crook. Mike. Then, when we didn't know
Speaker 3: if Texas was the same, same exact thing off a highway,
Speaker 3: guy thirty five in the big cities Dallas and Houston,
Speaker 3: in and out of stores, no rape, no robbery. Boy,
Speaker 3: it looks the same, but the gun is not the same.
Speaker 3: He's obviously if it's him. He's changed guns. Mike Krook
Speaker 3: went to the Thomis side scenes, all the scenes in Texas,
Speaker 3: and he says he believes it's just his feeling. It's
Speaker 3: the exact same it's the exact same guy. A lot
Speaker 3: of police officer us don't believe it is. It's truly
Speaker 3: a fifty to fifty split. It's hard to say. There's
Speaker 3: just no concrete evidence that it is other than it
Speaker 3: certainly looks to be the same. He killed two people
Speaker 3: in Texas, Mary and Glascock and Amy Bess, and then
Speaker 3: he went to Houston and tried to kill Vicky Webb.
Speaker 3: Thought he left her dead. Thought he did it. If
Speaker 3: it is the Saint seventy guy. If not, there's another
Speaker 3: person there doing the same thing. But Vicky survived.
Speaker 2: Let's use this as an opportunity to stop for a
Speaker 2: second to hear these messages. Now you talk about September
Speaker 2: twenty fifth, nineteen ninety three, the first crime with Mary
Speaker 2: Ann Glascock, who's a fifty year old fifty one years old,
Speaker 2: and she has a little antique shop. And tell us
Speaker 2: though of all the things that are put together, at
Speaker 2: least circumstantially, that are so similar to the I seventy murders.
Speaker 2: What to police and yourself being part of this investigation,
Speaker 2: absolutely know about the particulars that are so similar.
Speaker 3: These shops are all the same. They're small, little antique
Speaker 3: type stores or specialty stores, a wedding store or shoe store.
Speaker 3: They're not big, blockbuster stores. They're individual, small stores with
Speaker 3: one woman inside. In most cases, the Tara hate was
Speaker 3: two women, but one of them was in the back
Speaker 3: room when the killer came in. They believe he thought
Speaker 3: there was just one woman in the store. So there
Speaker 3: was always a small shop right by the highway, very
Speaker 3: busy area town, mainly in the middle of the day,
Speaker 3: except for whichitah women working alone, usually with brunette hair. Again,
Speaker 3: no robbery, no rape, no way to get away. We
Speaker 3: talk about the getting away. I back to Saint Charles
Speaker 3: and Bogey Hills, where I said, couldn't have gone out
Speaker 3: the back door instead of about the is he parking lot?
Speaker 3: The back door is a golf course. I just can't
Speaker 3: believe the man's running through it. The number work he
Speaker 3: gun and a Sunday afternoon with a bunch of golfers
Speaker 3: and carts, so he didn't and the police there say no,
Speaker 3: he bought, he came out the front door. He walked
Speaker 3: in the front door, all these places, and he walked out.
Speaker 3: He had to have the woman alone, obviously, so he
Speaker 3: had to look at the store for a few minutes
Speaker 3: or scope it out and make sure no customers were there.
Speaker 3: And he was in and out in a matter of moments.
Speaker 2: What did police consider in terms of the reason why
Speaker 2: there was this big expanse of distance between crimes in
Speaker 2: this rampage and when you consider moving to Texas.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think if you talk to the police departments
Speaker 3: again that are fifty to fifty split on whether it
Speaker 3: is the Ice seventy killer. A couple things come up. One,
Speaker 3: he took a year off. What was happening in that
Speaker 3: year in Quantico? Where I talked to the profilers, and
Speaker 3: again there's a tough case to profile. There's usually rape,
Speaker 3: there's US Lear ROBERTI, there's US leomotive. You know, they
Speaker 3: know why Jeff Dahmer was picking up boys, son of Sam,
Speaker 3: even had his dog talking to him. But they couldn't
Speaker 3: get this narrowed down. So when you're talking about distance
Speaker 3: of the cases here, it's like, do we have any
Speaker 3: profilers of serial killers that took a year off and
Speaker 3: started again. No, so as they're building the profile, everything's different.
Speaker 3: But okay, let's say he did take a year off
Speaker 3: and start again. What was he doing in that year?
Speaker 3: Police even looked at Fort Leonard Wood was out as
Speaker 3: a military complex in that area, to see if if
Speaker 3: he could have been deployed for a year. They checked
Speaker 3: jail records to see was somebody in jail for that
Speaker 3: one year that got out at that time, and started
Speaker 3: tracing those They picked up the telephone and called sixty
Speaker 3: five thousand people and checked every hotel record for anybody
Speaker 3: who was in these cities on these dates when people
Speaker 3: were murdered, to see if there was any trace there.
Speaker 3: One of the people they called to say, hey, where
Speaker 3: were you? Can you explain yourself? Was Kevin Costner.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: It just became really, really bizarre. And then the police said,
Speaker 3: you know what is We're trying to track both of
Speaker 3: these scenes a year apart, Texas and I seventy if
Speaker 3: we could find somebody, anybody the face of the earth,
Speaker 3: who was in more than one of these towns on
Speaker 3: these exact days. Say you were in Wichita the day
Speaker 3: of that killing and you were in Dallas the day
Speaker 3: of that killing. If we could find one person, we
Speaker 3: might have our killer. They found one. They tracked him
Speaker 3: down in Chicago. Boy, they went in there to talk
Speaker 3: to him.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: But I'm told they were one hundred percent convinced that
Speaker 3: was just a coincidence. It was not him. So what
Speaker 3: happened in that year? Where did this guy stay after
Speaker 3: the killings? No records of hotels, no records of campgrounds.
Speaker 3: They think, well, he's a trucker, he's sleeping in his truck.
Speaker 3: You know what, these parking lots at some of these places,
Speaker 3: like in Indianapolis or which Chita, little teeny, you can't
Speaker 3: get a semi truck in these parking lots. Again, nothing
Speaker 3: made sense for the police. It became an impossible task
Speaker 3: for the profilers.
Speaker 2: You talk about the second murder or at tempted murder
Speaker 2: in November one, nineteen ninety three, in Texas. Amy Vess
Speaker 2: tell us about this harrowing survival story.
Speaker 3: So sad Yeah, So sad Amy was shot and left
Speaker 3: for to dead, and all she could do is crawl.
Speaker 3: This was in Dallas area. The second killing there after,
Speaker 3: Mary An Glascock. All she could do was crawl in
Speaker 3: her blood to a telephone in dial nine to one
Speaker 3: to one, and police have that record to show you
Speaker 3: how dedicated, and she died shortly after to show you
Speaker 3: how dedicated these officers are. Back in Saint Charles, the
Speaker 3: police officer working the case who's now retired is a
Speaker 3: man named Pat Mcerrick. Pat calling ninety one one in
Speaker 3: his desk drawer. It's not past case, a completely different
Speaker 3: state across the country and there when he's working the
Speaker 3: I seventy case all these years, day after day, and
Speaker 3: he says, sometimes they get new bosses to come in
Speaker 3: and say, hey, there's new stuff. Lay off this thirty
Speaker 3: year old case for a while. Pat pulls the tape
Speaker 3: out of his drawer and says, I got something I
Speaker 3: want you to hear, and he plays Amy begging for
Speaker 3: her life, begging for an ambulance. And Pat's boss has
Speaker 3: always said the same thing, We're sorry, stay on it,
Speaker 3: never give up.
Speaker 2: That was what happens to Amy when she's she makes
Speaker 2: a nine one one call.
Speaker 3: She makes the call, but the ambulance comes to get
Speaker 3: her and she passes away. She doesn't survive the killing.
Speaker 3: The second of two in Texas very similar to Marianne
Speaker 3: glass Cock. Clearly there's no doubt that the Maryanne Glasscock
Speaker 3: killer appears to be the Gamy best killer. Now the
Speaker 3: question is down in Houston, is that killer, whether it's
Speaker 3: I seventy or somebody else, a copycat? Is that the
Speaker 3: person that tried to kill Vicky Webb? Tell us about
Speaker 3: Vicky Webb.
Speaker 2: She has a gift shop and she has you spoke
Speaker 2: to her, so you have a detailed story of her
Speaker 2: horrible experience.
Speaker 3: You know, you work thirty five years in television. You
Speaker 3: cover a lot of crimes, You need a lot of
Speaker 3: devastated families. You do a lot of interviews for me, Hundreds,
Speaker 3: if not thousands. Vicky Webb will never be forgotten by me.
Speaker 3: You talk about in a incredible woman. Whoever tried to
Speaker 3: kill her, whether it's the guy's seventy killer, somebody else
Speaker 3: comes into her store, she's ready to go on vacation.
Speaker 3: That's a Saturday again, middle of the day, little gift
Speaker 3: shop off the highway, and he shoots her and leaves
Speaker 3: her for dead. But as he's leaving the store, he
Speaker 3: notices that she's still barely breathing. He comes back and
Speaker 3: he puts the gun to her head again and pulls
Speaker 3: the trigger, but the gun jams. Now there's no ight
Speaker 3: outside and he flees. Vicky Webb is alive, barely. Customers
Speaker 3: come in, they find her, They get her to the hospital.
Speaker 3: She goes through months of surgery. It's touching go she lives.
Speaker 3: She's scared to death. Somebody's tried to kill her, and
Speaker 3: the kill her attempt to kill her knows she's alive
Speaker 3: if they followed her story on the news. She has
Speaker 3: survived a miracle. Vicky goes into hiding. She's not even
Speaker 3: talking to the police department, so she doesn't want anybody
Speaker 3: to know she's alive. She gets divorced, she leaves town.
Speaker 3: She's moved around the country. She might as well be
Speaker 3: the unibomber. She's hiding as best she can. She's gone
Speaker 3: from state to state numerous times, and she's not done
Speaker 3: anything talking to anybody. And I knew as I was
Speaker 3: pursuing this, I just thought, even with the police, I'd
Speaker 3: ask him what about Vicky Webb? What about Vicky? Where's Vicky?
Speaker 3: Nobody knew where she was, and I thought, well, I'm
Speaker 3: going to try to find her. A common name. But
Speaker 3: I went through every Vicky Web, I can find in
Speaker 3: the world who was around that age thirty years ago.
Speaker 3: I knew how old she was now. I went through
Speaker 3: divorce records, I went through new marriage records. I knew
Speaker 3: she sold the house, and I went through real estate records,
Speaker 3: and I wound up with a list of about six
Speaker 3: hundred potential women who used to be Web who were
Speaker 3: now somebody else. And I just started making cold calls.
Speaker 3: You know, it's what journalists do. And you know how
Speaker 3: it is. You get a call on your cell phone
Speaker 3: or your house phone, and if you think it's a salesperson,
Speaker 3: you hang up. You don't even answer. And I give
Speaker 3: credit to Cambill BTV for allowing me the time to
Speaker 3: go sit in the corner in a room and make
Speaker 3: a bunch of phone calls every day. And literally weeks
Speaker 3: went by and I'm just calling fifty people the day,
Speaker 3: getting nowhere. Hello, my name is Bob Cypher's. Click, I
Speaker 3: am Bob Cipher's I'm a news reporter. Click, I am
Speaker 3: Bob Ciphers. I'm a news reporter looking for Vicky Web. Click.
Speaker 3: And finally one day, I you know, I'm not almost
Speaker 3: in a comatose state. I made so many calls and
Speaker 3: I call, hello, this is Bob Ciphers. I'm a news
Speaker 3: reporter from Cambill b I'm looking for a woman named
Speaker 3: Vicky Webb. And there's nothing on the other end. And
Speaker 3: I say, I'm looking for the woman named Vicky Webb
Speaker 3: who was shot and left for dead and Houston thirty
Speaker 3: years ago. And still it's quiet on the other end,
Speaker 3: and I went I thought maybe they hung up. And
Speaker 3: I said, ma'am, are you there? And then I hear
Speaker 3: I'm here, and I'm thinking, could it be? And I say, ma'am,
Speaker 3: is this are you the the key web I'm looking for?
Speaker 3: And again it's quiet, and then she says, I probably am,
Speaker 3: And it was like wow, I mean literally chills went
Speaker 3: through me. And that doesn't happen after you covered these
Speaker 3: things for thirty years. And I found her, but that
Speaker 3: was only in the first base. I had to get
Speaker 3: her to talk to me. That took time, and she
Speaker 3: had to learn to trust me. I told her what
Speaker 3: I was doing. I had her look at the at
Speaker 3: our website of all the stories I'd already done, not
Speaker 3: just on cold cases, but on the on the on
Speaker 3: the seventy K I gave her police numbers of all
Speaker 3: the police officers I've been working with around the country,
Speaker 3: from the FBI to the Task Force. I asked her
Speaker 3: to call anybody and check me out. And it took time.
Speaker 3: You know, we became texting buddies. We text back and forth,
Speaker 3: Happy Thanksgiving, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, how is your vacation?
Speaker 3: And then finally, out of the blue, I get a
Speaker 3: text one day. I look at my phone. It comes
Speaker 3: in from Vicky and it just says, let's do this.
Speaker 3: And it was like, here we go, Here we go.
Speaker 3: If I called the Task Force Raymond Floyd and I said,
Speaker 3: I've got Vicky Webb, and it was like, what, I've
Speaker 3: got Vicky web and flew to VICKI and what a
Speaker 3: remarkable woman. Again, I've met so many people in my life,
Speaker 3: so many news stories. Just what a remarkable woman. And
Speaker 3: her position is. She suffered long enough, she's been hiding
Speaker 3: long enough. He's had thirty years to come after her.
Speaker 3: Maybe he's dead. She likes to think he's dead, but
Speaker 3: if not, the time has come for her to help
Speaker 3: solved this case. And if he's alive, she wants him
Speaker 3: arrested and caught, and she wants to stare him down
Speaker 3: in court. And her killer might be the Ice seventy killer,
Speaker 3: it might be somebody different. Either way, somebody tried to
Speaker 3: kill her twice.
Speaker 2: Before we get into a little bit more about how
Speaker 2: Vicky Webb tries to help and is still trying to help,
Speaker 2: let's get to discussing the case which happened ten years
Speaker 2: after the I seventy killings and Billy Brossman.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's going to be that's going to
Speaker 3: be the story that decides this. And in my opinion,
Speaker 3: so ten years more go by after the Texas killings,
Speaker 3: and now we're into two thousands and right back in
Speaker 3: Tara Hate, one mile away from where Mick McCown was
Speaker 3: killed at Sylvia's store a little again, a little, small,
Speaker 3: little nicked store. A man enters a liquor store. He's alone.
Speaker 3: Rossman's working behind the camera. Now there's security cameras behind
Speaker 3: Billy Brosman's head and Nick in the liquor store. We
Speaker 3: didn't have those back in the nineties. And the man
Speaker 3: walks in, a very preppy looking guy. He goes to
Speaker 3: the back and pulls out a six or twelve pack
Speaker 3: of beer, brings the beer to the counter to pay
Speaker 3: for it, and instead of pulling out his wallet, he
Speaker 3: pulls out a gun. He marches Brossman to the back
Speaker 3: of the store around the corner, shoots him and kills him,
Speaker 3: does a celebratory dance, and then flees the store. He
Speaker 3: doesn't even come back to pick up his beer. Yeah,
Speaker 3: he doesn't come to the cash register to take any money.
Speaker 3: So what's his motive. His motive, just like the I
Speaker 3: seventy motive, just like the Texas motives, was not robbery,
Speaker 3: was not rape. It was the thrill of the kill.
Speaker 3: Was the game. It was. The chase was to catch
Speaker 3: me if you can. But now please have security video, Dan.
Speaker 3: Your listeners can google Billy brospin video on YouTube and
Speaker 3: they can see it a homicide right before their eyes. Wow,
Speaker 3: it's amazing, and now please have this. And they put
Speaker 3: the video on TV. In Tera Hote for weeks, not
Speaker 3: one person recognized it. But that told the police something,
Speaker 3: that told them that their killer was not from Tera
Speaker 3: Hate for nobody to recognize, so they start looking elsewhere,
Speaker 3: and now they start having some people come forward. They
Speaker 3: don't know each other, but they all say the same thing.
Speaker 3: They say to the police. You know, I really can't
Speaker 3: make out his face. He's a preppy looking guy. But
Speaker 3: years ago, we'll get this guys away. Years ago I
Speaker 3: dealt with this guy was a preppy looking guy. We
Speaker 3: used to make fun of him because he always had
Speaker 3: his pant legs rolled up. And on this tape there's
Speaker 3: this preppy looking guy that's got his pants cuffed up
Speaker 3: real high. Who does that? They kept hearing that from
Speaker 3: different people. They kept hearing it from different people. So
Speaker 3: I see the Brossman tape and immediately I think of
Speaker 3: one thing. I think of Tim Hickman. I called Tim
Speaker 3: and I say, have you ever heard of Billy Brossman? No,
Speaker 3: what's that? I said, Go google the Billy Brossman tape
Speaker 3: on YouTube and tell me if you've ever seen this
Speaker 3: man before in your life. Tim goes to watch the tape.
Speaker 3: Five minutes later, I get the text from him. Yep,
Speaker 3: I've seen him again. Chills with the old veteran reorder.
Speaker 3: So Indianapolis Police, I'm sorry, Tarah Hope. Police. They go forward.
Speaker 3: It's circumstantial evidence right now, but they're going forward. They're
Speaker 3: trying to get a they're trying to go after this guy.
Speaker 3: They have a lead on the name. They go to
Speaker 3: get a DNA swab from him. He doesn't want to
Speaker 3: give it. Time goes by, They get a cord order
Speaker 3: for the DNA, a warrant. Now the man's got no choice.
Speaker 3: He's got to give the DNA or he's going to jail.
Speaker 3: He gives the DNA swab. They've got that now in
Speaker 3: their system. They have this suspect's DNA. They go to
Speaker 3: the prosecuting attorney. We want to go over chargers on
Speaker 3: this guy for killing Billy Brossman. Now right now, they've
Speaker 3: not connected anything to seventy. It's a terra haute case.
Speaker 3: But the prosecuting attorney, looking at the the full scope
Speaker 3: of evidence, decides it's not enough to go forward. And
Speaker 3: that happens sometimes, and prosecuting attorney's jobs are not to
Speaker 3: take cases that are ten percent chance of being found guilty.
Speaker 3: They have to run for reelection. They don't want to
Speaker 3: lose a high profile case. And in the attorney at
Speaker 3: this point decided we don't have enough here, and it's sat.
Speaker 3: It did not go forward, But it's sitting out there now.
Speaker 3: Tim Hickman sitting out there now, and I think if
Speaker 3: this case does get solved, eventually, the preppy looking guy
Speaker 3: that came in Tim's store, that in his window, and
Speaker 3: the preppy looking guy that came with his pants cuffed
Speaker 3: up in tear a hot ten years later is the
Speaker 3: guy that the police departments are eventually going to track down,
Speaker 3: is my hope.
Speaker 2: Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear
Speaker 2: these messages. Now, let's get back to this incredible Vicky Webb,
Speaker 2: because what's interesting is you have the Brossman video, which
Speaker 2: you think is uh, it's quite good in its quality
Speaker 2: showing this this person pretty clearly. But also what you
Speaker 2: had mentioned is that there's audio. Now tell us about
Speaker 2: Vicky Webb about her ability to to recognize her perpetrator
Speaker 2: by what she says about recognizing his voice.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is very important. So when I met
Speaker 3: with Vicky, I played her the bros beIN video. She
Speaker 3: had not seen it, and I knew that was going
Speaker 3: to be an emotional moment. If she thought the bras
Speaker 3: beIN killer was her shooter, that was going to be
Speaker 3: a very difficult moment for her and I we walked.
Speaker 3: We talked about it ahead of time. VICKI do you
Speaker 3: want to see this or not? She decided she did,
Speaker 3: so I played her the Brosbin video and she watched it.
Speaker 3: She stood up and stared at it intently as she
Speaker 3: was wh and she sat back down and we looked
Speaker 3: at each other. She shook her head and she said, Bob,
Speaker 3: that guy is not my guy. And I said, are
Speaker 3: you sure? And she said she was. She goes, if
Speaker 3: I heard audio, I can make a difference. I'll remember
Speaker 3: his voice more than his looks. But that guy does
Speaker 3: not look like my guy, this preppy looking guy. Vicky
Speaker 3: described her guy as a weathered jockey look about as
Speaker 3: opposite as a preppy looking guy as she can possibly find. Also,
Speaker 3: in Vicky's case, the man spent time in her store,
Speaker 3: you know, maybe fifteen minutes in her store, or in
Speaker 3: the other cases, we believe he was in and out. So,
Speaker 3: putting those two things together, I don't believe that Vicky's
Speaker 3: killer or Vicki's attempting killer was the bros Being killer.
Speaker 3: And if the bros Been killer is the guy's seventy killer,
Speaker 3: that means he's not Vicky's shooter. But again, a lot
Speaker 3: of time has passed, a lot of memories go. Vicky
Speaker 3: says she could recognize the voice. So I said that
Speaker 3: I was told the voice, you don't see a whole
Speaker 3: lot or the audio on that tape. But the FBI
Speaker 3: told me they could. They had the audio, they could
Speaker 3: crank up the audio. So I said to Vicky, I said,
Speaker 3: you get in touch with your local the eye. You
Speaker 3: got a name, you got a number. She did. I said,
Speaker 3: see if they'll play you that audio. She still does
Speaker 3: not think that's her guy. But but the Brasman thing
Speaker 3: has more than just the video and the audio. He's
Speaker 3: wearing a wedding ring. Now again, it's ten years after
Speaker 3: the killings, a year in between with Texas. Now we
Speaker 3: got a wedding ring to talk about. There's a woman
Speaker 3: involved here somewhere. It's given police another lead, a lot,
Speaker 3: a lot of stuff dan to sit to get through.
Speaker 3: For these police departments come from a lot of different directions.
Speaker 3: A puzzle that's going to be hard to confirm. But
Speaker 3: even if you say to yourself, Tim Hickman is the
Speaker 3: best guy to identify, and he is, imagine what a
Speaker 3: defense attorney does to Tim Hickman and a witness stand. Oh,
Speaker 3: so you think that your memory from thirty years ago
Speaker 3: can put my guy behind bars? Can you tell us
Speaker 3: what you had for dinner three nights ago. Very very difficult.
Speaker 3: So for police, this is either going to be one
Speaker 3: of two things to solve the case. Number one a
Speaker 3: DNA match. So the suspect from Brossman, they have his
Speaker 3: DNA in the system, they've not got to hit yet.
Speaker 3: The only second way is going to be a confession.
Speaker 3: And as the FBI profiles will tell profilers will tell you,
Speaker 3: there's no history of this, so it's clearly a DNA
Speaker 3: case now and it's in the hands of wherever those
Speaker 3: advancements might take us.
Speaker 2: You chronicle all the advances in DNA that were used,
Speaker 2: and we're hopeful by police to have a breakthrough in
Speaker 2: this case. You talked about vacuum technique and what you
Speaker 2: said originally that it was only semen and saliva available,
Speaker 2: but now they had touched DNA, so there was some
Speaker 2: evidence that was the police were anxious to test at
Speaker 2: the International DNA.
Speaker 3: Lab that you cite.
Speaker 2: Tell us about what was tested and what was hopeful
Speaker 2: and what were the results.
Speaker 3: Well, right now, there are no DNA matches for anything
Speaker 3: with our suspect in this case or anything else. But
Speaker 3: now again, as DNA keeps advancing year after year after year,
Speaker 3: demon and saliva go to handler or touch DNA. Well,
Speaker 3: now handler or touch DNA have gone to shellcasing DNA.
Speaker 3: Shell casings are probably the best chance now right today
Speaker 3: for DNA in this case because they've still got those
Speaker 3: shell casings they kept after all these years. But even
Speaker 3: now beyond shellcasings, if you look at some of these
Speaker 3: cases that are being solved around the country that are
Speaker 3: thirty and forty years old by DNA, now we have
Speaker 3: what's being referred to as family or geological DNA. You
Speaker 3: look at our murder suspect in Idaho where the kids
Speaker 3: were killed on the college campuses there they were taking
Speaker 3: DNA from his parents, or the case of the Gabby
Speaker 3: girl whose body was found in the mountains and the
Speaker 3: suspect killed themselves in the Everglades, they were taking DNA
Speaker 3: from his parents. So as we evolve here, it may
Speaker 3: not be a direct hit. For yes, we have the
Speaker 3: suspects DNA and the system. Who knows where we're going
Speaker 3: to be at in five or ten years from DNA,
Speaker 3: and that's what the police departments are hoping for. You know,
Speaker 3: I mentioned in which tadd had got the wedding veil
Speaker 3: where the man looking for the looking for the tie,
Speaker 3: came into the cumber bunt before the wedding and saw
Speaker 3: that the gud was inside the wedding veil and the
Speaker 3: police officer there, the detective Tim Ralph, has saved the
Speaker 3: wedding veil all these years. And you know Tim caught
Speaker 3: Tim Chase down the BTK killer. This was in his
Speaker 3: own town. He spent his whole life chasing it and
Speaker 3: cracked it. So these police detectives man to think like
Speaker 3: it's something that's foregone and done. Brad Ramsey, we just
Speaker 3: got finished checking a case from nineteen sixty. It's in
Speaker 3: the book named Joe Anne Fox. The case is sixty
Speaker 3: years old. He comes across a DNA match of a
Speaker 3: man in Florida for a homicide. He goes down there.
Speaker 3: The guy's eighty years old. The feeling occurred when the
Speaker 3: man was twenty. I think it's a good message for
Speaker 3: the for the police to have out there that you're
Speaker 3: never safe if you think you're going to get away
Speaker 3: with stuff, We're coming after you. To the end of time.
Speaker 2: You recognize all the dedicated detectives that have been involved
Speaker 2: in this case and are retired, but you chronicle and
Speaker 2: put their statements in as to their dedication still once
Speaker 2: they retired. Some of these officers fifty years in law enforcement.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely. I spoke with Mike Crook just this past week.
Speaker 3: He's in a head to go in to the hospital
Speaker 3: for some treatments for his neck, and I guess Mike
Speaker 3: is probably pushing eighty years old and he's he's asking me,
Speaker 3: is there anything new in this case? I said, well, Mike,
Speaker 3: you'd know about it before I would. You know, that's
Speaker 3: what he wants to talk about. And when I was
Speaker 3: doing the media tour and going to tear A Hote,
Speaker 3: Brad Ramsey the police officer there, I said, Hey, I'm
Speaker 3: gonna be in Tea Hote doing some TV and newspaper
Speaker 3: Brad hope if we can do lunch or something. And
Speaker 3: Brad writes back and says, I'm in Florida on a
Speaker 3: golf vacation. When are you gonna be there? I said
Speaker 3: just one day. He said, I'll meet you for dinner.
Speaker 3: I said, what, He goes, I'm flying home. We're gonna
Speaker 3: we're gonna have dinner. I'll the golf can wait. I
Speaker 3: seventy comes first I mean, these guys are just incredible.
Speaker 3: I mean, I I just wish that somebody thought I
Speaker 3: did something with my career like ideal about these people
Speaker 3: with theirs, I mean, I am in awe of each
Speaker 3: and every one of them. There's a man in Saint
Speaker 3: Charles's name, Don Stepp, who handled the case for many years,
Speaker 3: retired marine, and it's just now retired from the police department.
Speaker 3: And he says, you know, it's the one case I
Speaker 3: couldn't solve. I wanted to tell Nancy his parents I'd
Speaker 3: solved it and it's haunting me. And I said, what
Speaker 3: are you going to do in retirement? He said, I'm
Speaker 3: gonna go fishing. I'm gonna sit at the pier, put
Speaker 3: a line in the water and think about this case.
Speaker 3: And realized they have thousands of cases. Chris Shroud as
Speaker 3: a young detective in Raytown. He didn't he's been handed
Speaker 3: the case of Sarah Blessing. And I talked to Tim
Speaker 3: and he says, Bob, we've had cutbacks in our police department.
Speaker 3: We're really short handing handed. Crime keeps coming in every day.
Speaker 3: We can't keep up with tomorrow, with yesterday's news, much
Speaker 3: less today's and then I look in the corner and
Speaker 3: I see this stack of files from the I seventy
Speaker 3: case that go to the ceiling. I would love to
Speaker 3: delve into him. When can I do that? I am
Speaker 3: just my respect is off the charts. And that's one
Speaker 3: of the reasons I wrote the book. I didn't write
Speaker 3: the book for me. I wrote the book for these guys.
Speaker 3: If I can help them, Man, what a thrill that
Speaker 3: would be. And Dan, I've told all the media places
Speaker 3: I've gone, I'd say the same thing to you and
Speaker 3: your audience. Just imagine what a thrill it would be
Speaker 3: for you if somebody listening to your podcast was the
Speaker 3: person who picked the phone up and made the phone
Speaker 3: call and said, Hey, I saw that Billy Brosman video.
Speaker 3: I know that guy. Hey, I knew a guy that
Speaker 3: had the ERMA Workie gun. You know, thirty years ago.
Speaker 3: If one of your listeners Persson that made that call
Speaker 3: that made the crack in this case, Man, how would
Speaker 3: you feel? How would I feel? How would these cops feel?
Speaker 3: That's what I'm playing for for that in.
Speaker 2: Game, you right at the very end of an FBI
Speaker 2: profiler that became part of your team, integral part of
Speaker 2: that team Larry an Crum. He said, quote in this book,
Speaker 2: make no mistake, this guy likes to read and watch
Speaker 2: all of the TV news stories anything about himself and them.
Speaker 2: He wants to he wants to know about himself. He
Speaker 2: wants to learn all he can about the case. And
Speaker 2: he said, if he's still alive, he's reading this book.
Speaker 3: And he's listening to this podcast.
Speaker 2: Very interesting. I want to thank you so much for
Speaker 2: coming on and talking about your incredible new book, dead End,
Speaker 2: Inside the Hunt for the Interstate seventy serial Killer. For
Speaker 2: people that might want to check out more about this case,
Speaker 2: can you tell us if you have a website and
Speaker 2: do any social media?
Speaker 3: Dan, I'm the sixty five year old guy. I'm afraid
Speaker 3: social media came along way too late for me. But
Speaker 3: you can get it wherever you buy books, Amazon, Barnes
Speaker 3: and Noble Books, a million, Walmart, Target. You know, it's funny.
Speaker 3: And when I wanted the television show, isn't there asking
Speaker 3: me where to buy the books? And I'm reading off
Speaker 3: these places and I somehow, I say, stupidly, toys.
Speaker 2: Are us toys?
Speaker 3: Well, just so we're clear, you cannot buy the book
Speaker 3: of you cannot buy it there because one, Toys r
Speaker 3: Us does not exist anymore. And two, even when Toys
Speaker 3: r Us did exist, I don't think they stock their
Speaker 3: shelves with books about serial killers. So Genius Publishing is
Speaker 3: the book. Again. Amazon is probably when most people buy
Speaker 3: their books. And I didn't write this book for me
Speaker 3: to make a penny. If you paid you by the
Speaker 3: hour that I put in, I'd be a poor man
Speaker 3: on this book. I just so much want to help.
Speaker 3: I'm so dedicated to these officers, and I thank you
Speaker 3: for everything you're doing to help. And boy, my fingers
Speaker 3: are crossed because guess what, they have a suspect. They're
Speaker 3: just waiting, and I believe today is coming when it's
Speaker 3: going to be national news.
Speaker 2: As you write in the end, may the police someday
Speaker 2: get lucky. Thank you so much, Bob Ciphers for coming
Speaker 2: on and talking about dead end, inside the hunt or
Speaker 2: the Interstate seventy serial killer. You have a great evening.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Dan. Good night,