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Slash 32 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:38.159 Online Security conditions apply. 33 00:01:40.719 --> 00:01:44.200 Block host Radio. 34 00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:54.640 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 35 00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:57.760 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 36 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:05.120 written about them. Gazy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 37 00:02:05.159 --> 00:02:08.840 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 38 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:13.120 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murdered with your 39 00:02:13.159 --> 00:02:17.000 Host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 40 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:31.000 Good Evening. Fred Rosen is a former columnist for the 41 00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:35.080 Arts and Leisure section of the New York Times. He 42 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:38.159 is also one of the most important and successful figures 43 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:41.199 in true crime writing and the author of several true 44 00:02:41.199 --> 00:02:44.840 crime classics. He got off to an incredible start with 45 00:02:44.919 --> 00:02:48.879 Lobster Boy in nineteen ninety five, Blood Crimes in nineteen 46 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:52.759 ninety six, and Gangmum and The Mad Chopper, both published 47 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:56.120 in nineteen ninety eight. Deacon of Death was published in 48 00:02:56.120 --> 00:03:00.560 two thousand, Needlework in two thousand and one, Body Dump 49 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:04.159 and Flesh Collectors were published in two thousand and two, 50 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:07.719 The Historical Atlas of American Crime in two thousand and five. 51 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:11.319 When Satan Wore Across and There But for the Grace 52 00:03:11.360 --> 00:03:13.800 of God were both published in two thousand and seven, 53 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:17.439 Deadly Angel in two thousand and nine, and Trails of 54 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:20.840 Death in twenty eleven. Did They Really Do It was 55 00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:24.039 published in twenty and fifteen. Born to the Mob and 56 00:03:24.120 --> 00:03:26.960 Murdering the President were published in two thousand and sixteen, 57 00:03:27.719 --> 00:03:31.879 The Bayou Strangler in two and seventeen, and Bat Masterson 58 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:36.080 in twenty and nineteen. We will discuss how he got 59 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:40.039 started in what cases and killers in particular most shaped 60 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:44.159 his remarkable true crime body of work. The episode tonight 61 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:48.159 is Fred Rosen True Crime Retrospective my special guest journalist 62 00:03:48.199 --> 00:03:52.280 and author Fred Rosen. Welcome back to the program, and 63 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:56.120 thank you very much for this. Fred Rosen, Oh. 64 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:59.639 Dan, I am, I'm overwhelmed, I really am. I mean, 65 00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:03.280 as you were reading off those books, you know it 66 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:05.759 brings back all these memories. 67 00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:07.879 You know, Well, that's good. 68 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:12.919 Yes. Do you know what's interesting when you look back 69 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:16.160 on a book, and you know this, When you look 70 00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:20.800 back at a book, you don't remember necessarily, Yeah, I 71 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:23.240 mean you remember some of the details about the case, 72 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:25.639 depending upon what the case is, but you also remember 73 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:27.800 what was going on personally, you know. 74 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:36.240 Sure, Let's talk about the books in particular. As I 75 00:04:36.360 --> 00:04:39.000 mentioned and in the introduction, you got off to an 76 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:43.439 incredible start with Lobster Boy. Now where were you previous 77 00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:47.480 to Lobster Boy in your career? And give us the 78 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:52.639 particulars the circumstances in which this book, very important true 79 00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:56.879 crime classic with the wildest cover in true crime history. 80 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:01.480 Tell us about Lobster Boy, tell us about the genesis 81 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:04.240 of Lobster Boy and your career as a result. 82 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:08.199 Okay, thank you, I'll tell you what happened. I had 83 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:13.439 actually done another true crime book prior to that, called 84 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:21.759 Doctors from Hell, right, and what happened was and what 85 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:27.279 happened was I was trying to sell a novel and 86 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:32.319 I got friendly for various reasons, you know, with this editor. 87 00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:36.279 His name is Paul Dennis, who really shaped a lot 88 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:42.759 of true crime at Pinnacle Books, right. And I was 89 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:48.839 standing on the corner of Park Avenue and thirty fourth 90 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:53.279 Street in the middle of Manhattan, ban and he said 91 00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:54.519 to me, well, you know what, I don't want to 92 00:05:54.519 --> 00:05:57.000 publish your novel, but I'd like you to work on 93 00:05:57.040 --> 00:05:59.959 this book called Doctors from Hell. I need a journal 94 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:07.079 list and I I was teaching journalism at the time, okay, 95 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:11.680 at Hastra University, so uh, you know, he offered me. 96 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:14.439 You know, I remember the wind. You know, it was 97 00:06:14.439 --> 00:06:18.519 almost like a what do you call it? A spiritual moment. 98 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:21.959 You know, I was thinking, you know, do I do 99 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:24.199 I do this? Because it wasn't something that I was 100 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:29.399 necessarily looking to do. It was an opportunity and I 101 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:33.839 went with it. And then what happened Loss the Boy. Okay, 102 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:39.480 shortly after I do that book. Oh man, I'm in Florida, 103 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:46.439 Yeah it was. I was. I was on vacation and 104 00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:50.000 I saw something in the local paper about a case 105 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:59.040 involving a lobster boy, and I'm going, uh, right, okay, 106 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:03.439 and uh And I called and I called up pulled 107 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:07.040 Dennis the editor, and I said, you know, this is 108 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:10.000 a weird case. He says, it's your next book. So 109 00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:15.879 what he says, it's your next book. Okay, it's my 110 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:22.319 next book. So I start looking into it and uh 111 00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:27.519 there was there was the what happened, okay, what happened 112 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:32.759 was Grady Styles Junior, who's Lobster Boy was a circus 113 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:38.079 I'm sorry, Carnifreak, who had ectodactyle, which is what caused 114 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:41.240 the feet and the and they hands to fuse and 115 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:43.279 give him what looked like the lobster cause. 116 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:44.959 Okay, he was. 117 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:48.120 He was abusive to the family. Blah blah blah blah blah. Anyway, 118 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:56.160 loves for short. His wife working with her her son 119 00:07:57.240 --> 00:08:02.600 who is his steps on, Grady's step son, they harbor 120 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:13.040 a hit man to come into the house and kill him. Well, uh, 121 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:19.079 I uh. The the the attorney for uh for the 122 00:08:19.160 --> 00:08:27.560 wife sent out a video and it was it was 123 00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:29.879 supposed to be used and heard defense and where it 124 00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:32.720 shows is Lops the Boy wrestling with his song and 125 00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:38.320 Lops the Boy Junior. Okay, right, And I get a 126 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:40.799 copy of it. Dan. I don't know if I ever 127 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:44.320 talked about this. I don't think I have. And and 128 00:08:44.639 --> 00:08:47.159 I get a copy of it, and I, you know, 129 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:49.279 and I listened to it, you know, our play. You 130 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:51.759 know it's this is back in the nineties, so it's 131 00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:57.759 it's video. And uh, what you hear in the background 132 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:06.679 is tibbetsy. I think I have to translate that. Huh, right, 133 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:12.639 tibbotsy is a Yiddish term for kidding around. You hear 134 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:16.159 the family kidding around in the background, Okay, fade out, 135 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:19.879 fade in. I go to the trial. I'm at the trial, 136 00:09:21.080 --> 00:09:30.840 and uh, the the the during the trial, they the 137 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:39.679 defense attorney shows the tank, except he turns down the 138 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:44.039 sound and it's silent. I didn't know he turned it down. 139 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:47.159 I found that out later. But when you look at 140 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:52.759 it without sound, it looks like the fathers abusing his son. Right, 141 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:56.799 So what what is? What does your buddy do? He 142 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:59.799 walks up to the prosecutor. I walk up to the prosecutor. 143 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:04.200 I said, my copy of the tape has has sound 144 00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:06.559 and there's kibbe say And he said, get me a 145 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:10.440 copy of it, send it, send it. It's evidence in 146 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:13.960 a murder case. Oh my God, you know this this 147 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:18.399 was you know, I'm going, what the hell do I do? Dan? 148 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:23.639 You know, I'm getting involved in a murder case directly, 149 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:27.080 and you know usually journalists don't do those things, and 150 00:10:27.399 --> 00:10:32.200 you know we report, we don't get involved. Well, I'll 151 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:35.080 tell you what. So I have to decide. I mean, 152 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:38.759 I got the tape, and you were asking what I 153 00:10:38.840 --> 00:10:41.480 was doing at that time. I was still teaching. But 154 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:45.440 get this. I get the tape, okay, I mean, and 155 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:50.279 I'm in a hotel room in Campa and I get 156 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:53.799 a phone call and it's from the school I was 157 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:56.919 teaching at there telling me I don't I'm not getting 158 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:00.799 tenure because my degree is in film, it's not journalism. 159 00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:03.960 I'm not qualified to continue teaching. And I look at 160 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:06.879 the tape and I'm going, okay, I'm not qualified to 161 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:09.840 teacher journalism, but I'm about to break a major murder cake. 162 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:13.720 And I had to decide what to do with the tape. 163 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:18.720 Did it was? It was one of the most pivotal 164 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:21.200 moments in my life because I knew if I turned 165 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:24.919 it over, she'd get convicted and I was putting my 166 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:29.679 life at risk. So I didn't know what to do. 167 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:34.039 And I sat in the room, I looked out the window, 168 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:39.720 and I went back to my childhood, and I thought, 169 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:47.480 what would the lone ranger do? Because he was huh 170 00:11:47.960 --> 00:11:50.879 And so I said, the lone ranger would turn over 171 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:55.480 the tape and would serve justice regardless of the consequences. 172 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:00.360 And that's always been the way that I functioned, you know, 173 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:04.559 in terms of the way I work. And so that's 174 00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:06.639 what happened. I turned the tape over, and sure enough, 175 00:12:06.679 --> 00:12:09.039 the yeah, I got, I got, I gotta you know, 176 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:12.200 I got, I got a threat from the family, but 177 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:13.759 thank god, nothing happened. 178 00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:20.840 And were you criticized by them? Were you criticized by 179 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:23.720 the media at all? With your stats? 180 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:30.600 Oh yeah, well yeah, there were some people that criticized me. Yeah, yeah. 181 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:37.759 But the funny thing is, Dan, as sensational as this sounds, 182 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:45.399 it didn't get very much in the way of national publicity. Really, 183 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:48.240 I don't know. Yeah, and now it could be because 184 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:51.720 it was the mid nineties, and you know it's different today, obviously, 185 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:56.519 I mean, you know, but no, so, yeah, there was 186 00:12:56.600 --> 00:13:01.519 some people that criticized me, but hi, I just you know, 187 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:03.200 I just rolled with the punctures. 188 00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:10.120 The publisher pinnacle at the time. Must have been pretty 189 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:14.039 happy with the results. And so you get to your 190 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:19.480 next book. In nineteen ninety six, Blood Crimes. Oh yeah, 191 00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:23.039 Brian Freeman and his fifteen year old brother murdered their 192 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:27.440 entire family mother, mother, father, and younger brother. And these 193 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:32.120 are neo Nazi skinheads. Tell us just something that comes 194 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:35.759 to mind with this your second book, Blood Crimes. 195 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:43.279 I'll tell you what comes to mind. They were the 196 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:47.960 brothers with Jehovah's witnesses, so they rebelled against the parents 197 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:56.679 by becoming skinheads. It's weird, but they got friendly when 198 00:13:56.720 --> 00:13:59.720 they escaped after they did the killing. They went up 199 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:07.159 to Michigan and uh, and they with some white supremacist friends. 200 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:12.759 What happens during the trial, which is in Allantown, Pennsylvania. 201 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:19.000 Their white supremacist friend's skinhead friend comes down to testify, 202 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:26.559 and I, you know, I'm sitting here and I got 203 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:29.320 to stop myself from laughing so much because what happens 204 00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:32.799 is I started talking to him. You know, I'm a reporter, 205 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:37.960 and you know, of course I'm thinking to myself, gie Fred, 206 00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:41.320 it's a little bit weird. A Jewish guy talking to 207 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:44.519 neo nasty blah blah blah, but I said, you know what, 208 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:49.279 I'm working, and I talked to the guy who says, oh, 209 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:51.840 I need to live to the airport. I drove the 210 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:57.639 neo Nazi to the airport and all it was, it was, 211 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:00.720 and you know it was. It was very interesting because 212 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:07.159 he gave me the information about the brothers. Yeah, amazing 213 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:11.360 and and and the other thing that was interesting about 214 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:15.879 that was that because I had lived in Brooklyn Heights 215 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:19.600 section of Brooklyn, a neighborhood in Brooklyn, and that is 216 00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:26.399 where the UH the Uh Jehovah's witnesses are based. That's 217 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:30.559 where they have their world headquarters. So I was very 218 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:32.320 familiar with with witnesses. 219 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:43.320 Okay, let's talk about gang mom. This is very interesting 220 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:50.879 case of incredible deception. Was Mary Louise Thompson UH, mother 221 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.799 of a troubled team. She had been an active become 222 00:15:54.840 --> 00:16:00.320 an active campaigner against team gang activity. What did the 223 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:02.519 the neighbors find out about the model. 224 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:09.000 Mother the neighbors found out in it was Eugene Washington 225 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:12.240 that she was running her own her own street gang. 226 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:18.360 That while she was coming cross publicly as an advocate 227 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:24.519 against gangs, she had her own gang. And Uh, she 228 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:36.879 running her own gang and eventually, uh uh, she her son, 229 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:42.080 rather her son. What happens is she winds up, she 230 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:45.679 winds up getting one member of her of the gang 231 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:52.679 to kill a boy, a teenager that's going to testify 232 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:56.960 against her son in a case. And that's why she 233 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:02.080 winds up going to jail for life, you know. And 234 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:05.359 this is this is the Pacific Northwest. They don't get 235 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:08.799 around with these things, you know what I mean, they're 236 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:13.319 they're they're very you know, it's not someplace you're going 237 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:14.720 to get away with something like that. 238 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:22.680 What do you remember about the Mad Chopper tape of Florida? 239 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:28.079 Oh, oh boy, I'll tell you what I remember about 240 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:34.839 the Mad Chopper. Oh boy. Uh. I had to take 241 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:37.480 two trips. I always go to the scene of the 242 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:42.680 crime always, and so the first trip was down to 243 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:48.720 Florida where he killed a murdered a a prostitute. But 244 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:53.400 then I went out to California because the reason he 245 00:17:53.559 --> 00:17:57.519 was called the Mad Chopper is it's awful he shopped, 246 00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:02.680 he kidnapped the young girl and chopped over warm. Yeah, 247 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:08.960 and I mean it's and he wound up getting, oh, 248 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:12.079 you know, a lot of years in prison. And I 249 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:17.279 wound up going up to. I actually went up to 250 00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:22.960 northern California to the area where it happened. You know, 251 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:26.359 I went to the scene of the crime and and 252 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:28.440 I talked to the it was it was and I 253 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:32.119 also was I remember Modesto. Uh, I had to go 254 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:36.759 to Modesto and uh I talked to the police officer 255 00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:42.279 there who was the detective on the case. It was just, 256 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:44.759 it was just it was. It was a very very 257 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:50.400 upsetting case because the girl, oh god, you know, she 258 00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:53.160 never recovered you know, I mean, sure she got it, 259 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:58.920 you know, an artificial arm, but you know, emotionally, forget 260 00:18:58.920 --> 00:18:59.319 about it. 261 00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:06.799 The interesting thing was she testified that trial though remarkably. Yeah, 262 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:07.960 she was able. 263 00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:14.519 Yeah, I mean, but it but it uh, it was, man, 264 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:24.880 it was the mere fact that the law let and 265 00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:27.119 they changed it afterwards, I know that they changed it. 266 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:31.400 They let the guy out. Was ridiculous. I mean it 267 00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:37.519 was really really ridiculous. And uh so, and when when 268 00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:39.920 they did let him out, no community would take them, 269 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:42.279 you know, they had to move him around. 270 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:53.240 Incredible. Did you have a couple again, sheeps and wolves 271 00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:57.279 in sheep's clothing? Pardon me, A couple of remarkable stories 272 00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:01.759 involving something that people would not believe if it were 273 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:04.440 not for they would believe it, will have a hard 274 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:08.079 time believing if it was fictional. This deacon of Death church, 275 00:20:08.119 --> 00:20:14.839 deacon Smithers. This is in Tampa. Yeah, by day he's 276 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:19.160 the church deacon. But what's he doing at night? And 277 00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:20.160 what does believe to. 278 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:24.559 Well? I also have a memory on that book too. 279 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:30.039 What happens is what Sam is doing is at night 280 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:34.680 he leaves his house and he picks and he picks 281 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:40.519 up girls along one you know the street that Hillsborough 282 00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:44.759 I think it's Hillsboro Avenue where we're prostitute. She'll do 283 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:46.599 that on a way of work. Blah blah blah, I 284 00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:51.440 does stuff like that. But eventually he picks up two 285 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:55.039 girls and he transports them to this house where he's 286 00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:58.000 the caretaker, someplace out of the country, and he murders 287 00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:01.640 both of them and dumps him and ah, what do 288 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:04.759 you call it? Uh, I don't know. A pond a 289 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:12.039 pond right, and dumpson in a pond and uh it 290 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:16.839 was Oh, and what happened was that both of the 291 00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:22.519 women were prostitutes. And what happens is all must have 292 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:27.319 been about a couple of years afterwards. I mean Facebook 293 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:32.519 is amazing, Dan, sometimes because I started getting what do 294 00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:37.319 you call it pms, the personal message from from a 295 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:43.240 prostitute who've been working the streets with one of them, 296 00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:47.359 and she started telling me about the woman and basically 297 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:50.000 what she's what she's telling me is she's lucky she 298 00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:55.039 didn't wind up that way. It was it was really amazing. 299 00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:57.640 You know, once in a while those things happened, you know, 300 00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:00.880 not very often with you know, where somebody told after 301 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:04.720 the fact, you know, after the case. But that was 302 00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:16.160 that was very upsetting. And yeah, that was very upsetting. 303 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:21.519 And but you see, you Wilson mentioned a lot of 304 00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:25.880 those earlier cases took place in Tampa, Florida, in that 305 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:31.319 area Hillsburg County, because that's where Lobster Boys took place, 306 00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:35.000 even though it was pretty far south in the county. 307 00:22:35.079 --> 00:22:38.440 But it's basically what happened was I formed a relationship 308 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:43.559 with with the you know, with the police officers and 309 00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:47.559 also with the public information officers. So I'd ask you 310 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:49.880 to let me know if they had any interesting cases, 311 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:50.759 and they would. 312 00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:57.960 Talk about interesting cases. When Satan wore across this is 313 00:22:58.039 --> 00:23:03.079 nineteen eighty in Toledo, Ohio, and again on one of 314 00:23:03.079 --> 00:23:05.920 the holiest Days of the church calendar. You write the 315 00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:09.200 body of a none was discovered in the sacristy of 316 00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:13.240 a hospital chapel. Seventy one year old sister Margaret Anne 317 00:23:13.720 --> 00:23:17.759 been strangled and stabbed, and here it goes her corpse 318 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:21.640 arranged in a shameful and stomach churning to say the 319 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:28.039 least pose. Police had a suspect, Father Gerald Robinson, tell 320 00:23:28.119 --> 00:23:30.759 us how what happens here? And then what happens twenty 321 00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:33.440 three years later in this incredible story. 322 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:42.480 Well what happens is what happens is that Robinson is 323 00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:51.319 interrogated originally, but the monor comes in and gets him out. 324 00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:59.039 You know, the church used its influence and got him out, 325 00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:04.480 and then they moved him around from parish to parish. 326 00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:11.599 And funny thing on that case is, as I got 327 00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:17.599 into it, uh, there was a cop, former cop, who 328 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:25.680 had been at the crime scene and he uh he 329 00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:29.559 had been I don't I guess blacklist. He had been 330 00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:32.720 blacklisted by the department because he didn't go with their 331 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:37.440 what you know, their take on the thing. Right, so 332 00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:43.160 you know so and and oh oh oh oh, I 333 00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:48.640 forgot one more thing is Colombo used to say, Uh, 334 00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:53.720 I Uh, this is the first time I ever spoke 335 00:24:54.519 --> 00:25:03.720 to an exorcist. Well, Dan, I got on the phone 336 00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:10.200 with an exorcist, and you know, because they called in 337 00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:13.799 an exorcist and to help them figure out what was 338 00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:20.640 going on because it was a satanic inspired crime. And 339 00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:23.079 then I and so I got to talk to the exorcist. 340 00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:27.400 You know. Uh, that was pretty that was pretty interesting. 341 00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:35.839 Yes, no kidding. What was interesting too? Is it twenty 342 00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:38.599 three years later. Really, what we had and what you 343 00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:42.359 write about I thought was very interesting. It was a 344 00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:45.160 different time, and you know, it's twenty three years later, 345 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:50.640 but the societal shift in attitude was really what facilitated 346 00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:56.720 Robinson being convicted because it was a different, completely different time. 347 00:25:56.759 --> 00:25:59.279 I you say, the church didn't have the power that 348 00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:03.519 it had with the exposing of all the scandals over 349 00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:04.839 the years in that interim. 350 00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:09.160 Oh yeah, oh yeah, and that was what was so 351 00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:15.759 interesting about it. In fact, Oh yeah, just Robinson died 352 00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:20.799 in jail a couple of years ago. Somebody contacted me 353 00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:24.960 to let me know about it. 354 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:28.960 Interesting. You wrote a book called there but for the 355 00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:33.720 Grace of God. Oh it's just what that is. Briefly, 356 00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:37.079 what do you mean by there but for the grace 357 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:39.119 of God. What do you include? 358 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:49.680 Well, it's based on that old expression, oh God, help 359 00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:53.359 help me out here. Well there, but for the grace 360 00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:57.200 of God is about Oh boy, this is the most 361 00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:02.680 emotional book I ever did. Questions, Oh yeah, I mean it. 362 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:11.519 This was a book. I interviewed survivors of sections and 363 00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:18.039 it was, it was, it was. It was a real education. 364 00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:22.799 In fact, one of the survivors, who I'm not going 365 00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:26.839 to mention by name, but found a way to make 366 00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:32.359 money off of it. But I've got to say that 367 00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:38.400 what was so hot? Oh man, I'll never forget this. 368 00:27:40.359 --> 00:27:44.839 I met the woman who who was in the uh 369 00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:50.599 the woman who put ted Bundy in the chair. It 370 00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:57.359 was when Bundy went into the sorority house in Florida, 371 00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:04.000 uh and Central Florida. And this woman had come in 372 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:13.839 after Bundy had killed two of her sorority sisters upstairs, 373 00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:19.480 and she came into the the I's gonna say the 374 00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:23.240 ante room, but it would be the living room. And 375 00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:31.839 she said to me she could feel her grandfather's arm 376 00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:34.799 on her, stopping her from going further into the room, 377 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:39.359 because if she'd gone further into the room, she would 378 00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:42.000 have been close to Bundy. And he might have killed her, 379 00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:47.039 but she was able to see him and at the 380 00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:50.519 stairs in a circle of light, pool of light, whatever, 381 00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:59.240 and what happened was she she later testified against him 382 00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:01.200 and put him in the lectric chair. But I gotta 383 00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:07.119 tell you the emotion. I have never ever been that 384 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:13.279 close to that kind of evil. I mean, I I 385 00:29:13.319 --> 00:29:16.400 you know, I don't mean to get you know, mystical 386 00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:18.559 or anything, but I just have to tell you that 387 00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:26.759 the vibe was just I could feel the bundye vibes 388 00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:29.640 and I'm just talking to this woman, you know, luck. 389 00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:33.440 But again locally she's vibed and had a life and 390 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:39.400 so forth and so on. That was just very very emotional. 391 00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:45.480 Tell us how you came to be involved and write 392 00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:50.079 Deadly Angel Clime That occurred in Wasscilla, Alaska, a little 393 00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:54.359 place about forty two hundred people. She was an exotic 394 00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:59.599 dancer at this bush company in nearby Anchorage. Well, so 395 00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:01.319 it's a little bit about what you remember about this. 396 00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:04.559 Well, the thing I gotta tell you about that is 397 00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:10.680 that the woman Okay, this is about an exotic dancer 398 00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:15.720 who allegedly lures one of the one of the guys 399 00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:19.680 she's living with out into the country in murderism. The 400 00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:27.119 thing is, later on this became the first closed case 401 00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:32.759