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Speaker 1: In an age where Christian nationalism is clawing at the

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foundations of our democracy. We're here to push back with evidence,

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with reason, and yes, with kindness. This is the Atheist Experience,

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where faith meets facts. We take your calls, live, strip

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away the excuses, and put every claim under the harsh

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light of reason. If it's true, it survives. If it's nonsense,

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it doesn't. We attack ideas, not people. So step up,

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make your case for what you believe, and more importantly,

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why because the show starts now. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to

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the Atheist Experience. Today is August tenth, twenty twenty five.

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I am your host, the Cross Examiner, and with me

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today a very special guest, the Blind Limey Jamie, how

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are you doing.

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Speaker 2: I have put on my big boy trousers and I

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am ready to go.

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Speaker 1: Not your big boy kilt. We were just talking about kilts.

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Speaker 2: That's a potential thing for the bat Cruise, which we

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will be talking about maybe back crewise.

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Speaker 1: Well, we should say before we get into that, that

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the Atheist Experience is a product of the Atheist Community

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of Austin, a five oh one c three nonprofit organization

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dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism,

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and the separation of religion and government, and they put

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on an annual back cruise that we should talk about.

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The bat Cruise is coming up fast. It's August sixteenth

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in Austin at seven pm local time. There's the slide.

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Tickets are selling out very quickly. We only have a

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dozen or so left, so please grab them now. As

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one of our producers said, toot sweet to get yours

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today so you can join people like me. I think, Jamie,

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are you going.

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Speaker 3: To be there?

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Speaker 2: I'm Austin locals. I'll be there.

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Speaker 1: Excellent Scott is one of our our hosts here. He's

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a backing. Backing is up today. He'll be there and

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lots of people. Lots of people will be there, Caitlin,

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Jonathan R. Kelly, all sorts of people who already got

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their tickets will be there as well. If you're not

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able to attend, you can still help out by donating

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underneath the live chat to purchase a ticket for one

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of our hosts or crew That would have really helped

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them out. So visit tiny dot c c slash back

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Crews to get your tickets and we'll see you on

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the boat. Have you been before, Jamie.

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Speaker 2: This will be my third year. It has always been

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one of the highlights of my year. I I last

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year was particularly excellent because not only did a bunch

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of people come and I got to sort of talk

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to people in person I don't get to speak to

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very often. Your Forest Falkeys and your srs and you

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and all the luminaries. We we it's basically a two

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day long party. You know, there's there's live showings and

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people and we mingle. But after the Sunday shows wrapped,

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we all went out for our sort of goodbye sort

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of evening, and the sensible people went back to their

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hotel rooms, but myself, Secularity, Ja, Mike and a couple

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of other people from the from the Back Crows people

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who gathered. We all went downtown to the Fourth Street

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in Austin, which, if you know, is where all the

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gay bars are. So we went to We went and

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glammed it up down there, and it was absolutely fantastic.

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Jamike had never been to a gay bar before, so

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he was loving it and can't guarantee that something similar

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will happen this year, but it's just so nice. It's

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the reason I go to things like convention. It's the

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reason why we have these gatherings, just to be in

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a space where you're just surrounded by like minded people

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and you know you can just be yourself. And just

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to say that while it may seem like, oh, a

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dozen tickets left, that sounds like there's plenty if last year,

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in the year before anything to go by, they get

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snapped up quick.

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Speaker 1: In the last year, it's a jump dozen out of

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one or two hundred, So yeah, grab them while you can't.

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This will be my first year. I was supposed to

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go last year. I tested positive for COVID the night before,

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so I had to scrap everything. So I'm really looking forward.

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But I think you buried the headline. You called SR

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and J Mike not sensible. They were in the not

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Sensible crew that decided to go out afterwards. So we're

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gonna have to follow up with that, all right, So

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I'm so glad you're here. We have a caller. We're

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gonna jump straight in. We'll do more announcements later. We

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have James from Louis, Siana right now. His note is,

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how can we discern straightforward sacs versus metaphors in the

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Bible When discussing things with theists. So I'll ask you,

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James he him from Louisiana, Did I have your question right?

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Speaker 3: I can? There we go? Okay, Hi James, so pretty much? Yeah?

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Would you want do you want to expand on that question?

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Speaker 4: Hi?

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Speaker 5: Su Yeah, so yeah. I am an atheist and sometimes

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I do end up having discussions with some theists that

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I know. And one thing that I cannot seem to

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quite vocalize properly. I guess you could say, is how

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do you tale what's poetry or not to be taken

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literally versus what actually happened when most of it's written

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as though it's literal, like could actually happen.

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Speaker 1: I understand that is a common frustration, Jamie. Would you

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like to take the first crack at it?

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Speaker 3: I know my method.

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Speaker 2: So there's things in the Voilable that can be independently verified.

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You know, we know that certain places exist and certain

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events actually happened. But anything that can't be verified we

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have to take as just a story. I would always

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proportion my belief that the thing actually happened as to

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how much evidence we have outside of the Bible for it.

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The only other problem is is that, oh no, it's

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just a metaphor. Trust me. Bro is honestly one of

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the most frustrating tactics that are used by theists when

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you start pointing out things in the Bible that are

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either contradictory or immoral or just generally heinous, Like the

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amount of people that say that the scourging of the

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what are the ones pick a genocide basically in the Bible. No,

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that's just metaphor that didn't actually happen, Or the first

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the plagues of Egypt, they just metaphors. They will conveniently

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make things that if they actually happened and were ordered

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by the all powerful the rule of the universe, would

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have been horrifically monstrous, and say, nah, that's just a metaphor. Mate.

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But then when it's a man shall not lie with

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another man, and they really want to push their homophobic agenda,

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Now that's literal, and that's not a metaphor. That's absolutely

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literal and moving. We have a set of moving goalposts

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here on the set for a reason, because they keep

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moving them goal posts. Unfortunately, what do you think, see.

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Speaker 3: I think that's a great take.

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Speaker 1: I always I always struggle with this, to be honest,

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James because I was not raised in a religious household.

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We had some exposure, but for a during my youth,

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I just assumed there was some sort of instructions, some

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you know, division between the stories, the metaphors and the truth.

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And as you have recognized, there isn't. So what I

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do when I'm talking with people if they claim that

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X is a metaphor, right, And it comes up commonly

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because one of my favorite topics is the efficacy of

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intercessory prayer. So intercessory prayers when you're asking God to intercede,

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intercessory intercede with something on your behalf. So commonly it's like, Okay,

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my father is in the heart is in the hospital

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with a heart attack, Please please make him better. Right, So,

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the power of prayer, And when people talk about that,

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they know that it doesn't work, Like all the studies

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show that the prayer is ineffective. The Templeton Foundation put

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on the Giant Prayer Study if you google the Great

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Prayer Study. Templeton Foundation, very religious organization, the biggest study

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of the power of prayer in the world. In the

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history prayer is no different than placebo. And in fact,

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if you're aware, you're being prayed for, you actually statistically

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might have a worse health outcome. So people tend to

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know this. So when you point the Bible where it

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says something like verily verily, where two or more of

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you are together in my name, anything is possible through prayer,

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or if you truly believe to and you want to

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move a mountain, you can move the mountain anything you

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ask for in prayer if you believe it will be

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given to you. All of these phrases, they will say, Ah,

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that's just a metaphor, or that's just that's just poetry,

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as you said. But then I go back to okay,

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so why is he saying verily verily? If you google

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verily verily in the Bible, you see a lot of

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apologetics trying to get away from that. They will either

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embrace it and say when Jesus says variably or when

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the writers say variably, they mean truly, truly variably, verily verily,

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But some of them will say, well, it's a form

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of amen. They're trying to say amen before the statement

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to sort of just put their stamp on it, but

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it doesn't mean truly. Sort of try to back off,

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and then you go to other verses that say, verily, verily,

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the only way you can be saved is through Christ,

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and well, in that case, this verily verrely means true.

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So you have to take the time and put in

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the effort to walk them around through these passages and

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ask them how do you tell what the difference is?

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And what you will end up with is, oh, it's

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metaphor if it's easily disprovable under today's standards, and if

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it's not, then it's literally true. That's pretty much what

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the rule is, is that what you've experienced James.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So I was having I've called in on a

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TikTok live about why I don't believe in Catholicism or something,

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and basically they said, well, you know, why don't you believe?

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And I said, you know, there's almost no scientific accuracies,

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you know, listed in the Bible. And I brought up

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the creation story. You know, plants before the sun, sun

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and moon, that being the same size in our atmosphere,

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in our atmosphere has a solid dome to keep the

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waters out, and you know all of that. And they said, well,

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you can't take that literally. That's that's just poetry. And

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like I mean, I know it's from an ancient zorya Zoroastrianism,

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you know, creation myths and stuff, and it was pretty

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much just piggybacked. But you know, your book claims it

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to be true. There's nothing, there's no disclaimer saying, hey,

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this is just allegory for some greater meaning or something.

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You know, it's pretty much intended to be you know,

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this is the cause of why everything is, and it's

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patently false and untrue. And you know, I just I

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couldn't seem to verbolize how to show that he was

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just doing all these intricate dances to get out of,

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you know, admitting that he was wrong.

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Speaker 1: I would I would recommend doing the uh, you know,

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explain this to me like I'm five dance where they

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start using, oh, that's just a metaphor that part that

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I don't like or is obviously false as a metaphor

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or poetic and then you can say, oh, okay, I'm sorry.

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I didn't realize there was a way that God had

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instructed us how to differentiate between metaphor and poetry and

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literal assertions of fact in the Bible. Because the Bible

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asserts facts all over the place. They asserted that miracles happen.

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They assert that you know you're going to go to

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hell if you don't believe and accepted in Jesus Christ.

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In various forms, they assert that it's okay to own slaves.

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They assert all sorts of things. And then you ask them,

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the person who's making the claim that the Bible is

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true and is asserting facts, how do I tell what

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is the consistent rule that God has given us to discern?

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What is flowery language? And what is the assertion of facts?

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And the guideline for the most important question in the

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history of all the universes. If it's true, how do

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we get to an afterlife? And they won't be able

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to give you a rule? At least let me not

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straw man anybody or put words in people's mouths. I

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have asked that question many times. I have never heard

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anybody be able to give me a cogent response that

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is a consistent rule when in doubt. These are the

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signals if we say verily, it's true, If not, it's false,

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or it's metaphor or whatever. They won't go there because

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verily is used to identify lots of things that are

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demonstrably false.

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Speaker 3: Today.

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Speaker 1: So that's the only way I can deal with it

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is to say, you just wiping something away as a

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metaphor calls into question in our discussion the whole concept

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of oh so this whole thing isn't literal, and then

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I want to jump back to Jamie here. But one

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other point that's related to that. There are millions of

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Christians who disagree with whomever you're talking about about, which

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one is literal, right. I could cite the Westover Baptist

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Church folks, who's one The one thing I applaud them

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for is taking the fewest liberties within interpreting the Bible.

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They just say the Bible is literally true and they

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go from there and they end up as being racist, misogynistic,

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really awful people. But they don't do what your people

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are doing is like, well, that's obviously false, so I'm

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gonna call it metaphor. They don't do that. They say no, no, no, no,

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it's literally true and it's only you only think it's

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false because you're being deceived by the guy, by Satan

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or something like that. So that's another tack that you

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can use. It's like, well, what do you say to

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Christians who disagree with you about whether this is literally

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true or not. Anything to add there, Jamie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's a good point. I mean there's

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if it was so cut and dried and clear what's

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a metaphor and what's not, we wouldn't have all of

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the different denominations and sectarian violence and all this kind

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of stuff. And boy, oh boy, ask me how I

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know that that stuff gets real serious. But if you

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think that the person you're speaking to may be amenable

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to it, you might want to ask them to look

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at this text and just let's just take it on

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a textual level, and if they can detach themselves a

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little bit from it and go look at and say,

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look at it from my perspective as someone who doesn't

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believe that that this is anything but stories, the historical fiction.

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Let's read one of these passages, one of these stories,

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and then and then break it down. You can do

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with Genesis, you do that. The one I've recently been

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reading for a side project is Two Kings Two that's

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the story of Elijah and Elijah. And at one point

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during that story, Elijah is literally and it's and it's

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point of fact in the story that it's a literal

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happening taken up to heaven in fiery chariots with fiery

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horses in a whirlwind. This is a physical thing that happened,

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according to the book. And you say, well, take it.

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Try and see it from my perspective where I'm reading

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that an old man was taken up literally physically in

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a whirlwind on a flaming chariot by it pulled by

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a flaming horse. Now, how do I know that that's

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not a literal thing? How do I know it's a metaphor?

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Can you break that down for me? Can you not see? How?

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Speaker 5: Like?

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Speaker 3: Why?

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Speaker 2: All?

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Speaker 6: So?

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Speaker 2: That sounds how unbelievable it is to someone who doesn't

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have a pre supposition that everything in this book is

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either true or a metaphor for something else that's true.

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Speaker 3: That's an excellent point. What are your thoughts there, James?

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Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Another thing one other thing you can also do

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is writing on top of that, is to ask them

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about other religions, right, and if they don't believe the Koran,

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for example, right where the moon was split in two,

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and obviously it's not split in two, and I don't

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think it ever says and it was put back together.

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You would hear the same thing in other religions. Oh

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that's metaphor, that's poetry, et cetera, et cetera. But this

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other part about you know, women being subservient, No, those

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are literal instructions. And you can say, you disc you

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find that laughable, but you don't find it laughable when

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you do it. Have you Have you ever run into

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that with the people that you've been conversing with.

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Speaker 5: Not really a lot of them. They just pretty much

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ask me for my opinions and stuff, and they may

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chime in every now and then. But I'm not much

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of a debater, talker or whatever. And that that live

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that I explained earlier, that was the first time I

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ever actually had like an actual debate, And you know,

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I'm not used to having to, you know, dig into

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other people's belief systems and whatever, and so I was

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just trying to get some advice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, TikTok lives are pretty difficult debate space. I mean,

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I've gotten in and we try and be as even

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handed on this show as we can, but I've seen

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I've been in Christians lives and it's varied in quality

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of how well I was treated, and they are often

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just looking to get a gotcha. You're not there. They're

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not honestly wanting to know your opinion. What they're doing

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is they're trying to maneuver you into position where they

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can slam dunk you and and and big up their

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own preconceptions. So if you can find ones you might

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want to try, Like if you have friends who are

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Christian or or you know and wouldn't mind talking about this,

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or even not do about Christianity, like any other belief

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that seems a little bit unfounded, Like maybe you have

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a friend who believes that the moon landing was faked

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or that some other thing that is difficult to think like,

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have them make it make sense to you if they can.

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And especially when it comes to things like interpreting the

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religious texts. As as Graham was saying this, cross examiner

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was saying, do a textual like right, well, we'll leave

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the Bible alone. Let's have a look at I don't know,

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a passage from the back of ad Geita or Norse

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mythology or something. How do we know that this didn't

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actually happen? How do we know that it's only metaphor's

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let's let's go on this journey together, shall we.

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Speaker 1: Really, the problem you have is they're asserting that prayer works,

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that God created the universe, that the Earth is six

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thousand or ten thousand years old, whatever crazy thing they're asserting.

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And if you're not comfortable engaging in, you know, logical

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syllogism and things like that, you can always take the

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Socratic approach of just asking questions. People will tend to

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engage with you if you ask sincere questions, if you

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just and if they say, well, why aren't you answering,

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You're like, I'll answer any question you have, but I

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don't know what I believe. That's why I'm talking to you.

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Could you please explain to me why or how X?

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And then just have them do it and then think of, okay,

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the part that doesn't make sense and then say, oh, okay,

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well what about ABC and just hear what they say,

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and sometimes that can cause them to end up going

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in a circle. I will point you my favorite one

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to go at with this is Matthew twenty one. I

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think it's twenty one. Let me check, yeah, Matthew twenty

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one verse twenty one, so twenty one, twenty one and

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I'll read it to you and you'll see what I'm

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talking about here, Jesus replied, quote truly. So I'm looking

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at the NIV, so it'll be verily and the King James. Truly,

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there's that signifier. I tell you, if you have the

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faith and do not doubt. Not only can when you

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do what was done to the fig tree. He did

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some stuff to the fig tree because he didn't like

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the fact that it didn't give him figs, but you

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can also say this to the mountain, go throw yourself

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into the sea quote quote, and it will be done.

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If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for

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in prayer. So a first you ask him do you

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truly believe? Then hit him with this, say, well, could

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you please explain Matthew twenty one twenty one to me

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where Jesus not only says that prayer works, but that

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if you believe it will be done, you can make

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a mountain go into the sea. And not only does

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he say that, he says truly before it. What's the

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point of saying truly if it's not true? Are you

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calling Jesus a liar? So's that's that's what I tend

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to do. What are your thoughts, James before we move on?

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Speaker 5: It all really makes sense. Okay, sorry, he said Jamie

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for a second.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, no problem. We have a little delay here,

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so that that's part of the continuion. I just want

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to make sure. Do you have any other questions?

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Speaker 3: Go ahead.

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Speaker 5: No, that's all I can really think of. I just

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wanted to say thank y'all for all y'all's work. I've

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been an atheist for about fifteen years now, but I've

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been listening to this program for probably about twenty maybe

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a little bit longer than that, and you have really

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helped me along with logical thinking and things like that.

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And I'm just I'm grateful for all of y'all's hosts,

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all of y'all's people in the background, and I just

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really appreciate y'all.

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Speaker 2: We appreciate you youship as well. And don't feel obliged

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to engage in these conversations. Yeah, that's comfortable. Take it

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from me. There is only misery down.

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Speaker 1: That is very true. I would second that, so thank

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you so much.

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Speaker 3: James.

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Speaker 1: Please feel free to call back if you have any

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other questions or if you want to relate to us

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any experience you've had when you were interacting with people.

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But speaking of the people who help us out, I

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would like to take a moment to thank you to

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send X thanks. I shouldn't say thank you, I want

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to thank you, but I would like to send a

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big thank you out to the ACA crew who put

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this show together every week, video operators, audio operators, note takers,

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call screeneters, chat moderators, and general rabble rousers, as well

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as a dog.

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Speaker 3: This week, is this a Scottie dog? I can't tell?

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Speaker 1: Oh no, is that a cat? Looks like a bag

407
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,160
a cat? Okay, I can't tell.

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Speaker 2: I will get to pet dog? You can of pet dog?

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Speaker 3: No, I can.

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Speaker 1: It was my one chance to My children are allergic

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to fur and my wife doesn't like dogs, so I

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have to live vicariously.

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Speaker 3: Through the crew.

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Speaker 1: I can't emphasize this enough, Like we come on and

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we talk to people and we do our best to

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00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,599
just talk, but it doesn't happen without all the work

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00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,839
that the crew does. The crew are all volunteers. Everybody

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00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,319
on this shows volunteers. Everybody that works with the ACA

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00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,119
are volunteers, except for a very small handful of people

420
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,759
to very lean charity, so to help us out. You

421
00:23:01,759 --> 00:23:04,720
can like and subscribe to this video and others that

422
00:23:04,759 --> 00:23:07,000
would really help us get the viewership going. It's one

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00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,759
way that we do raise money is through through interactions

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00:23:11,799 --> 00:23:15,519
with ads and things like that. You could also enable notifications.

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00:23:15,839 --> 00:23:18,359
You can comment below to engage with the video. The

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00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,759
algorithm loves that and if you like what you hear here.

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00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,759
We should also know that we have a channel that

428
00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:27,240
houses all of the shows of the ACA and audio

429
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,599
podcast form. You can go to tiny dot cc slash

430
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:36,759
an Podcasts. There you can listen to all the latest

431
00:23:36,759 --> 00:23:39,839
shows from the Atheist Experience, Talk, He Than Truth, Wanted,

432
00:23:39,839 --> 00:23:44,440
the nonprofits, and others on one channel. That is another

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00:23:44,799 --> 00:23:47,640
outreach that we try to make available to people where

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00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,720
you can interact and get the content that you're looking for.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,839
Speaker 1: I tend to do all of them, Jamie. I will

437
00:23:55,839 --> 00:23:57,759
watch the videos if I have time, but when i'm

438
00:23:57,799 --> 00:24:00,920
driving around I've been driving a little bit more, I'll

439
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,440
listen to the podcast. I'm kind of impressed how well

440
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:04,799
it works pretty much anywhere.

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00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I stick the are in for for premium,

442
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,400
so I tend to just have the videos running in

443
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:18,319
the background. But many, many many A simulated flight across

444
00:24:18,759 --> 00:24:22,160
the digital skies has been to the dulcet tones of

445
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,079
my colleagues here having a conversation about faith or some

446
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:31,319
other epistemological thing. I remember a wonderful call, the one

447
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:37,240
that spawned the look at the Mangoes. I was flying

448
00:24:37,279 --> 00:24:39,079
up the side of Mount Fuji while I was listening

449
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:39,839
to that was great.

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Speaker 3: Think I was on that call. I think I talked

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to that guy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And the crew, of course, have been extremely busy

453
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,519
because they don't just they don't just do the show,

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they do everything. So we have events here at the

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at the library every week. We of course, I have

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00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,200
the back crews coming up, and the same people who

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are there pushing the buttons and doing the giggles and

458
00:24:59,599 --> 00:25:01,759
the knobs and the twiddlings are also the people who

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00:25:01,839 --> 00:25:04,200
are arranging things and making peace sure people are in

460
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:05,839
place to do this stuff and then everyone has a

461
00:25:05,839 --> 00:25:08,279
good time at these events as well. They're very, very busy,

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00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,400
extremely dedicated people who are often doing it for nothing

463
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but things.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, So we have more callers lined up. We do

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00:25:18,079 --> 00:25:20,119
have some lines open. We'll probably get to you if

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00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,039
you call in now, so please do But next up.

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We have John. He him from California. This is an

469
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:33,039
interesting conversation topic. Watching this show converted him to religions,

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So why don't we get John on the line and

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00:25:36,279 --> 00:25:41,359
John from California? Did I get your statement correct? You did?

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00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 3: Hey, guys, all right, going doing well? Doing well?

473
00:25:44,039 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 5: How are you?

474
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 6: I'm doing great? Before we start, I kind of just

475
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,839
wanted to say, so, I've been on this show a

476
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,680
couple of times before. That's a pretty bold claim, right

477
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,200
if it happened to you, kind of have to call in,

478
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,359
right like you'd have to at least try.

479
00:25:57,519 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: I've had some which which claim was bold. Sorry I

480
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:03,160
didn't hear which claim was bold?

481
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 6: A lot of them, I think. So this show converted

482
00:26:07,039 --> 00:26:10,640
me to religion, and then okay, bibile happened to me

483
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,160
in real life is a pretty bold claim. I just

484
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,960
before we started, I had the last few times i've

485
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,160
called you, guys kind of think that I'm throlling. I'm

486
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,599
genuinely not, to be honest. The only reason I called

487
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,319
today was just being the queue trying to live. I

488
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,559
like listening to the show, even if the show doesn't

489
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,680
like me. I really like the show, So I was

490
00:26:28,759 --> 00:26:30,680
kind of just trying to listen today. I'd be glad

491
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,240
to talk about it if you want to.

492
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 1: Okay, So why don't you tell us what's the biggest

493
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,559
reason that watching this show converted you to religion? Maybe

494
00:26:40,559 --> 00:26:44,079
we can take a background step and say, before you

495
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,720
watched the show, the statement you make implies that you

496
00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:52,200
were not religious, and then you watched the show and

497
00:26:52,279 --> 00:26:55,880
you became religious. So I think what I'd be eager

498
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,960
to hear from you is how that worked is you know,

499
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,519
not minutes of it, but you know it was sort

500
00:27:01,559 --> 00:27:04,400
of high level summary of how that happened. What were

501
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,200
the biggest, you know, the one or two biggest factors

502
00:27:07,279 --> 00:27:10,400
that convinced you of the truth of some sort of religion?

503
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,160
Which religion did you convert to due to watching this show?

504
00:27:14,839 --> 00:27:17,000
And where are you now? Why do you believe what

505
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:17,599
you believe now?

506
00:27:17,759 --> 00:27:21,599
Speaker 6: Sure? So my background is when I started watching the show,

507
00:27:21,799 --> 00:27:24,119
I was still pretty young. I was like an eighteen

508
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,440
year old senior in high school. I actually only came

509
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,279
across this show because one of my coworkership, my old boss,

510
00:27:30,319 --> 00:27:31,880
showed it to me. He was a pretty couel guy,

511
00:27:32,079 --> 00:27:33,799
you know, he kind of turned me on to I

512
00:27:33,839 --> 00:27:36,759
really admire this show for the way that you handle logic,

513
00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:39,559
the way that you're very careful about, you know, challenge

514
00:27:39,599 --> 00:27:42,839
people's premises, and just doing things in a very structured

515
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,559
and formal way. I think it's hard to find shows, honestly,

516
00:27:46,599 --> 00:27:48,839
anything out there that does that in the same way

517
00:27:48,839 --> 00:27:51,480
that you guys do. So I, you know, honestly, it

518
00:27:51,599 --> 00:27:54,160
had nothing to do with religion to me. At first,

519
00:27:53,839 --> 00:27:56,839
I wouldn't say I was an atheist, but I was agnostic.

520
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,839
Just religion wasn't a super huge especially you know, I

521
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:02,119
was in the eighteen year old It wasn't a huge

522
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,599
factor in my life, and I didn't necessarily take it

523
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,759
too seriously. And then as a Joe, after hearing the

524
00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:12,359
flying spaghetti monster thing, I started going through the Bible

525
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,319
trying to see if I could pick out, like Bible

526
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,000
clothes that would support the idea that Jesus is the

527
00:28:17,039 --> 00:28:20,119
flying spaghetti monster. No, I'm telling you, that shit converted me.

528
00:28:20,279 --> 00:28:24,319
I am full blown I consider myself a literal biblic

529
00:28:24,599 --> 00:28:29,680
biblical literalist, full blown Christian. This has changed my entire worldview.

530
00:28:30,039 --> 00:28:31,920
I'm pretty sure Jesus.

531
00:28:31,519 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 3: Actually is plant, actually is what plant?

532
00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:37,039
Speaker 6: The flying spaghetti you know, some people joke that, like

533
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,680
the atheists experienced, the flying spaghetti monster, joke goes too far.

534
00:28:40,799 --> 00:28:43,240
We're not being nice enough to religious people. As a

535
00:28:43,279 --> 00:28:45,880
religious person, I'm saying it doesn't go far enough. This

536
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,440
converted me, This is real, This is amazing.

537
00:28:48,799 --> 00:28:53,799
Speaker 1: Okay, Jamie, I'm gonna I'm gonna put him on mute

538
00:28:53,799 --> 00:28:57,720
here for a second. I don't think there's a legit

539
00:28:57,799 --> 00:29:02,359
reason that this person's calling in point Jesus is plants.

540
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,559
I'd be eager to hear from Jamie if there's any

541
00:29:05,559 --> 00:29:07,039
interest in continuing talking here.

542
00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 2: But well, first of all, the flying spaghetti Monster is

543
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,480
not an invention of the atheist community, correct something we

544
00:29:14,559 --> 00:29:18,079
used before. It's just an example of the unfalsifiability of God.

545
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,119
We never claim that it's real, and in so far

546
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,319
that Jesus or at least his divinity is also unfalsifiable,

547
00:29:24,359 --> 00:29:27,279
then yeah, I agree, there are some parallels, but there's

548
00:29:27,279 --> 00:29:30,079
also parallels to roll on the closet, goblin behind me,

549
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,519
or you know, at least the Rainbow giraff or pick

550
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,880
any other number of gods we've made up to to

551
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,720
be an example of unfalsifiability. I you know, I'm kind

552
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,799
of willing to engage for a little bit. But right,

553
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,680
but this is the same John that wanted us to

554
00:29:46,759 --> 00:29:52,400
literally that the daily bread is literally bred and the

555
00:29:53,559 --> 00:29:57,279
Christians should be giving out more actual physical bread. And

556
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,759
so I actually I want to take this calling very

557
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,640
different direction. John, What do you hope to get out

558
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:09,880
of this call? P What are you hoping to get

559
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:10,920
out of this call?

560
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 6: Like I said, originally, I kind of called in today

561
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:14,960
just to help, hoping to be in the queue, just

562
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,359
trying to listen into the show. You guys don't like me.

563
00:30:17,359 --> 00:30:19,039
If I really liked the show, you.

564
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 2: Can listen to the show without being in the huge.

565
00:30:21,519 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 6: Walking through, So it's easier to call for me just

566
00:30:25,279 --> 00:30:27,640
because my my friends, I've had issues getting the lives

567
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,759
stream working, so sometimes I just called to listen.

568
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 3: But okay, so I'm I'm with Jamie.

569
00:30:34,799 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: I I can't take you seriously for a couple of reasons. One,

570
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:44,039
the claims you're making are so ridiculous that maybe only

571
00:30:44,079 --> 00:30:46,480
you and the world either believe them or are lying

572
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,319
about them. And that really is the dichotomy we're dealing with. Right,

573
00:30:49,359 --> 00:30:51,599
You're lying to us now, which I tend to at

574
00:30:51,599 --> 00:30:53,480
this point to believe is more likely, but I don't

575
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,839
have final evidence of that, so I'm giving you the

576
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,960
benefit of doubt or you sincerely believe this, in which

577
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,440
case I then have to ask myself, what is the

578
00:31:02,559 --> 00:31:06,960
usefulness for continuing this conversation? What is the real world

579
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,240
implications that some guy that says his name is John

580
00:31:10,279 --> 00:31:13,720
from California believes that Jesus is plants or is the

581
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,000
literal spaghetti monster, or that Christians should give out literal

582
00:31:17,039 --> 00:31:19,519
bread and that's what they're commanded to do. What's the

583
00:31:19,519 --> 00:31:23,960
real world implication of that particular fact that you are

584
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,279
out there and it's so minimal compared to the problems

585
00:31:27,279 --> 00:31:31,160
that this world is experiencing right now that I don't

586
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:36,079
think our listeners have much interest in hearing this. So

587
00:31:36,319 --> 00:31:39,720
I'll give you another chance. I'll ask the same sort

588
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,960
of meta question that Jamie was asking. I'm just going

589
00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:47,440
to come out and say it. Do you feel guilty

590
00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:49,359
at all by calling in and doing this?

591
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 3: Not at all?

592
00:31:50,359 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 6: Like I said, I kind of, I was hoping I

593
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,400
can maybe just listen. I do listen to the show

594
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,200
a lot. It's a good show.

595
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,319
Speaker 1: Okay, every time we've answered a question right now, you've

596
00:31:59,359 --> 00:32:02,160
answered with I listened to the show a lot. That's

597
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,400
how you started the beginning. That's how you started when

598
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,640
I first asked you a question. It's how you started

599
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,440
when you answered Jamie's question. Is now how you're answering here?

600
00:32:10,559 --> 00:32:14,200
That's irrelevant to what we're asking you. I think you

601
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,960
should be a little bit If you truly believe this,

602
00:32:19,599 --> 00:32:22,039
good for you. Please don't call back, because I don't

603
00:32:22,039 --> 00:32:24,200
think anybody in the world cares. I think it is

604
00:32:24,319 --> 00:32:27,079
much more likely that you are not telling the truth.

605
00:32:27,359 --> 00:32:30,720
And quite frankly, you should feel some sort of shame

606
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,119
or guilt about wasting people's time in an era when

607
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,640
we are facing the very real probability that people who

608
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,480
genuinely have religious beliefs are going to come to such

609
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,920
a point of power in this country that they will

610
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,839
be able to enforce their beliefs on others through our government,

611
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,440
that the First Amendment is going to go away or

612
00:32:52,559 --> 00:32:55,599
not be enforceable anymore. That's the world we live in

613
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,480
right now. So as for one guy that likes to

614
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,000
say Jesus is the Flying Spaghetti Master or Jesus's plants

615
00:33:02,599 --> 00:33:04,440
and just call in and say that and then refuse

616
00:33:04,519 --> 00:33:07,000
to engage except to say I like the shows.

617
00:33:07,119 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 3: You should be.

618
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: Quite frankly ashamed. Do you have anything else to add, Jamie?

619
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,519
Speaker 2: If you like the show as you say you do,

620
00:33:14,519 --> 00:33:17,319
then you should know the kinds of questions we would

621
00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:22,599
ask of someone that we believe is being sincere. So

622
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,160
if I believed that you were being sincere, it was

623
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,000
giving you the benefit of that doubt, I would ask you.

624
00:33:29,079 --> 00:33:32,240
Two people come to me, both of them declare that

625
00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:36,359
they know that Jesus was real, and he is the

626
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,240
Spaghetti Monster or is plant one of who actually has

627
00:33:40,279 --> 00:33:43,400
the truth, and the other person is either mistaken or

628
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,599
lying or trolling? How do I tell the difference? So,

629
00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:50,720
can you maybe one last thing before we sort of

630
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,319
move on or anything. How do I tell the difference

631
00:33:53,359 --> 00:33:55,319
between you? I'm going to give it to you that

632
00:33:55,359 --> 00:33:57,720
I'm going to believe you out of the goodness my

633
00:33:57,759 --> 00:34:01,559
heart that you are actually being here. But how do

634
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,880
I tell the difference between you and someone else who's

635
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,079
saying the same thing and he's not being sincere? How

636
00:34:06,079 --> 00:34:07,000
do I tell the difference?

637
00:34:07,599 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 6: That is a really good question.

638
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 2: I know it's a good question. Can you please answer it?

639
00:34:11,679 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 6: If I legitimately started what if I actually start a

640
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,159
church with money behind it that I put real effort

641
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:23,199
into based on the idea of free beer and free

642
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,719
popcorns for everybody, Like, can I call back in at

643
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,639
that point? It's a real thing that like.

644
00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:30,559
Speaker 2: That would know about. That would not prove anything. That

645
00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:34,880
may prove the effica John John John joh John John

646
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,639
joh John, that may prove your sincerity. But I'm already

647
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,360
giving you that. You don't have to start a church.

648
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:44,239
You just have to tell me how do I tell

649
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,880
the difference between someone who's sincere like you because you

650
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,840
say you are and I'm believing you, and someone who isn't.

651
00:34:50,119 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, So we're dealing with Poe's law here, right, This

652
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:57,960
is this is what we're struggling with. Like Poe's Law says, basically, Uh,

653
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:03,559
given any amount of of ridiculous claim, when you have

654
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:10,880
fundamentalists in your society, it becomes impossible to distinguish satire

655
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,519
from reality with respect to fundamentalist claims. So yours is

656
00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:19,199
a crazy, out there claim. There's pretty much nothing you

657
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,719
can do at this point to show to us that

658
00:35:24,159 --> 00:35:28,639
this is a sincerely held belief other than engaging an

659
00:35:28,679 --> 00:35:32,840
honest dialogue and so far, you come across as very dodgy.

660
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,159
You don't you don't answer questions, You just want to

661
00:35:36,199 --> 00:35:38,559
talk about You like the show and you just want

662
00:35:38,559 --> 00:35:43,079
to listen. So I guess the one question I have

663
00:35:43,159 --> 00:35:47,400
before we go is if you aren't sincere, what is

664
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,159
the point? What are you trying? It's the same thing

665
00:35:50,199 --> 00:35:52,599
that Jamie said, what are you trying to do with

666
00:35:52,679 --> 00:35:53,079
this call?

667
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:54,079
Speaker 6: I'd be doing this.

668
00:35:54,159 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 3: I think you would be surprised.

669
00:35:57,119 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 6: Share my belief that I believe are pretty intensive.

670
00:36:00,119 --> 00:36:03,519
Speaker 1: So to share beliefs in a vacuum is just sharing

671
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,079
for either attention or because.

672
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 3: I'm going to mute them.

673
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: Second, so your question was, why would you be doing

674
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,719
this if you didn't believe it. You've heard of prank calls, right,

675
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,840
You've heard of crank calls. You've heard of people who

676
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,840
are just attention seeking. We were just having this conversation

677
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,440
between us, the crew, and our backup host Scott before

678
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,039
the show, like why do some of these people call in?

679
00:36:28,119 --> 00:36:29,199
Speaker 3: Because it's tough.

680
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: To filter out. It's pose law is very strong. It's

681
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:36,079
tough to filter out. But when somebody fails to start engaging,

682
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,480
then I don't have to believe or disbelieve their claims.

683
00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:42,280
What I can start to do is to doubt this

684
00:36:42,559 --> 00:36:46,760
sincerity of their effort. To communicate the point of this show,

685
00:36:47,079 --> 00:36:54,039
in addition to exposing the logical fallacies that are common

686
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,800
in religious belief around the world, is to do the

687
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,559
things that we say in our mission statement. It's dedicated

688
00:37:01,599 --> 00:37:04,679
to the promotion of atheism. Doesn't relate to your calls,

689
00:37:05,199 --> 00:37:08,840
the promotion of critical thinking. We're not doing that here, right,

690
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:13,079
You're not engaging in critical thinking, secular humanism. We haven't

691
00:37:13,199 --> 00:37:15,679
talked about that. I don't think that there's really a

692
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,199
point in talking about that with your call, because I

693
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,840
again don't believe that you're sincere, and the separation of

694
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,679
religion and government. Taking your call when neither of us

695
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:30,639
really believes that you're sincere, really furtherre's none of those missions.

696
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,920
So I think we should just move on. Jamie, Do

697
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:34,800
you have any last.

698
00:37:35,199 --> 00:37:38,639
Speaker 2: No, I mean, he had his chance that I'm sorry, John,

699
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,199
I gave you a very very and if you were

700
00:37:41,199 --> 00:37:42,599
a fan of the show, as you say you are,

701
00:37:42,639 --> 00:37:44,239
you just have seen this come in a mile off

702
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,320
that you have two people giving me the same claim.

703
00:37:47,639 --> 00:37:49,840
One of them is sincere, the other one isn't how

704
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,280
do I tell the difference? And all you could say

705
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,880
was that's a good question. I'm like, I fucking know

706
00:37:55,039 --> 00:37:56,559
it is. It's why I asked it.

707
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,199
Speaker 1: That is a little pet beeve of mine is when

708
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,119
somebody you ask somebody a question and then they go

709
00:38:02,159 --> 00:38:05,800
through this preamble of sixty seconds of well, you see,

710
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,840
that's a good question. And it made me think a lot.

711
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:13,039
I understand that talking to people live on a stream

712
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:17,079
can be disorienting. It can be odd because maybe you're

713
00:38:17,119 --> 00:38:21,000
listening to hold music or some other the lagging of

714
00:38:21,079 --> 00:38:23,119
the live show, and then you jump in and people

715
00:38:23,199 --> 00:38:24,840
are talking to you and you might need to catch

716
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,440
up mentally. Totally get that. We don't bite here. I

717
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,400
think you've seen We've tried to give James a benefit

718
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,199
of the doubt more than I think I've ever done.

719
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,159
Speaker 2: James from Louisiana. That was the problem.

720
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,639
Speaker 3: Oh that's right, who is this? Yes?

721
00:38:42,159 --> 00:38:47,559
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a problem today, Like we're trying here

722
00:38:47,599 --> 00:38:51,119
to do good work for society as a whole, because

723
00:38:51,639 --> 00:38:55,800
let's face it, religion as a whole tends to be

724
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,559
dwindling in the United States. But we have seen throughout

725
00:38:59,639 --> 00:39:04,000
history that When religious organizations start shrinking, they start to

726
00:39:04,079 --> 00:39:07,440
get more extreme. That's why cults when they go to

727
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,920
the end. I'm not saying Christianity's a cult, but when

728
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,920
you study cultism, one of the end games is the

729
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:19,119
compound us versus them mentality. The end of the world

730
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,679
is near, so we better get right with God, and

731
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:26,400
it turns into this fight for survival, or let's burn

732
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,880
the whole thing down because that'll bring about what we

733
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:34,159
want anyway, which is the end of times. We have

734
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,519
people in our government today that believe this shit. They

735
00:39:38,559 --> 00:39:40,599
are acting on it, they're trying to bring it about.

736
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,199
Project twenty twenty five was a playbook right out of

737
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:49,000
the most religious fundamentalist political action committee. Are not Pack

738
00:39:49,119 --> 00:39:53,639
a political organization dedicated to the furtherance of christian nationally

739
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,920
the United States in the history of the United States.

740
00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,800
So to call in and waste everybody's time with what

741
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,880
I'm just going to say, I presume are lies and bullshit.

742
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,280
Maybe you're off giggling in a corner now that I'm

743
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,360
still talking about it, but I think it really does

744
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,480
raise a real problem of do we all fiddle while

745
00:40:13,599 --> 00:40:14,280
Rome burns?

746
00:40:14,599 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 6: Right?

747
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: Are we all just going to be entertained by engagement

748
00:40:18,119 --> 00:40:22,480
rather than engage in actual, meaningful conversation that might change minds,

749
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,519
might help people figure out how to think clearer and

750
00:40:25,559 --> 00:40:28,360
then translate that into action that will help make the

751
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,760
world better. I'm choosing the latter. I think our former

752
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:33,159
caller chose the former.

753
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

754
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:39,199
Speaker 2: I mean, when you make patently difficult to swallow claims

755
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,320
even even though other Christians wouldn't wouldn't get on with

756
00:40:42,519 --> 00:40:48,239
you know, I I wanted to just for the sake

757
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,280
of the conversation. I wanted to give the benefit of

758
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,920
the doubt, like I'm going to I'm going to lay

759
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,480
out all of the rope and you can. You can

760
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:00,320
tie the biggest news It's fine. And I feel that. Yeah,

761
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,639
not only is it like it's wasting our time, is

762
00:41:02,639 --> 00:41:05,800
wasting the viewer's time. It's emblematic of a problem that

763
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,719
is endemic that seems to be coursing through that people

764
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,719
are lacking in any kind of empathy like you and

765
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,320
I'm just taking advantage of people's good will for their

766
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:21,159
own amusement, not just get their jollies. I really can't

767
00:41:21,199 --> 00:41:22,719
get on board with that. And unfortunately a lot of

768
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,199
the discourse vectors that we have, like the debate scene

769
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,679
and even shows like this, to some extent, we don't

770
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:36,039
try enough to understand the people we're talking to and

771
00:41:36,159 --> 00:41:38,920
maybe try and at least understand their point of view

772
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,519
before I criticize it. And I try and do that.

773
00:41:42,559 --> 00:41:44,000
I think you try and do that. Most of the

774
00:41:44,039 --> 00:41:47,239
people who work for the ACA are trying to do that.

775
00:41:47,599 --> 00:41:50,000
And when someone comes in and takes that good will

776
00:41:50,079 --> 00:41:53,239
and just uses it as a funny hat, I find

777
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:57,880
that quite offensive. But anyway, the thing I mean we

778
00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:59,679
were talking earlier about how do we deal with the

779
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,480
how do we deal with this like malaise of engagement

780
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,000
over content, over the authenticity kind of thing.

781
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's troublesome. I'm working on my show, on

782
00:42:13,039 --> 00:42:16,280
a new series that's going to hopefully educate people about

783
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,960
the Constitution one little clause at a time. I haven't

784
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,480
figured out what I'm thinking that as bite sized constitution

785
00:42:21,559 --> 00:42:26,639
or something, but the idea of people I don't want

786
00:42:26,639 --> 00:42:30,440
to feel like grampat kids today, But to some degree,

787
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:35,039
I think the studies bear this out. While we have

788
00:42:35,159 --> 00:42:39,760
improved education for humanity as a whole over time, today,

789
00:42:40,079 --> 00:42:45,960
given the what's at play, people are vastly uneducated when

790
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:50,920
it comes to the important stuff civics, the legal system,

791
00:42:51,079 --> 00:42:56,280
the government, or constitution. And it's because of that that

792
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,920
they not only not knowing what it says, but not

793
00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:04,880
understanding the context, the history of why the Constitution is

794
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,639
so special, why the First Amendment alone is like radical

795
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,199
in the entire history of the world. It's the most

796
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:16,960
important law I think that has ever been made that

797
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:23,360
ensures freedom that everybody cherishes. And it comprises not just

798
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:32,400
religious freedom under the establishment clause, but it also incorporates,

799
00:43:32,679 --> 00:43:36,079
incorporates the freedom of the press, the freedom of speech.

800
00:43:36,119 --> 00:43:38,280
It's all in that First Amendment. There's a reason it's

801
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,199
number one, right, that's the most important. So when we

802
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,320
have so much content out there that people just gamify

803
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,440
it or call in and have they want to joke,

804
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,480
it can be very frustrating, to be honest, and if

805
00:43:51,519 --> 00:43:53,920
that was your objective was to frustrate me or to

806
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,920
frustrate Jamie or frustrate callers, you achieved it. But as

807
00:43:57,960 --> 00:43:59,599
I said, you should be ashamed of that. And if

808
00:43:59,639 --> 00:44:03,119
you don't feel a little bit of shame to be honest,

809
00:44:03,119 --> 00:44:06,239
there's something wrong with you. That's not a normal human behavior.

810
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,880
Grow up and engage with the world around you, because

811
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:12,920
if you don't, other people will and they don't have

812
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,039
your best interests at heart when it comes to things

813
00:44:15,159 --> 00:44:18,719
like freedom of religion in this country, it's coming and

814
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:19,880
we need to be ready for it.

815
00:44:20,039 --> 00:44:22,039
Speaker 2: If there are only any theists out in the audience

816
00:44:22,079 --> 00:44:26,719
that are hesitant to call in, first, you don't want

817
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,079
to let that guy be the last impression of a theist. Yes,

818
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:35,280
this audience experiences. And secondly, we aren't going to bite

819
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,920
your head off like I try and be as chill

820
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,360
and cool and as you saw. I'll even grant it

821
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:45,119
for the sake of argument, wild shit, just to keep

822
00:44:45,119 --> 00:44:49,599
the conversation going in what could be hopefully fingers crossed

823
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:59,639
a constructive direction, like I'm a nice guy, but there

824
00:44:59,679 --> 00:45:01,920
is a we have to sort of draw the line.

825
00:45:02,559 --> 00:45:04,280
So we do still have open lines if you want

826
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,760
to call us, though you know the show does on

827
00:45:07,079 --> 00:45:07,440
I do.

828
00:45:07,519 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 1: I do want to let callers know if you were

829
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,039
on the line and you got dropped, that was a

830
00:45:12,159 --> 00:45:14,760
problem that we had. I think we've lost to the queue,

831
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,320
so please do call back in. In the meantime, we

832
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:22,119
do have some uh, let's call the segment we get voicemails,

833
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,960
we get letters, we get emails. So we do have

834
00:45:26,079 --> 00:45:32,320
a few offline interactions that were submitted to us before

835
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,440
the show that I think we can address if while

836
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,360
we're waiting for people to call back in, we have

837
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,320
some screenshots, I think we should just start with the

838
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,119
first one. These my understanding are these are screenshots of

839
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,199
messages that were sent to us emails or posts in

840
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,519
our discord, which is a great way to interact with us.

841
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,880
Or maybe there were things said at the at the

842
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,360
back cruise hope I'm hearing music now. So did we

843
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,760
make a TikTok out of this? It says perhaps you

844
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,079
should have a talk with retired for End detective Jay

845
00:46:01,119 --> 00:46:04,440
Warner Wallace about this subject matter. He might enlighten you.

846
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,039
This is in response to a previous show that I

847
00:46:09,039 --> 00:46:11,360
think I commented on when I was on the show,

848
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,280
and I said, eyewitness testimony is not a strong form

849
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:15,039
of evidence.

850
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 3: So Jay Warner.

851
00:46:16,599 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 1: Wallace, I think I don't want to.

852
00:46:19,559 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I have one of his books.

853
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,760
Speaker 1: I think he's the retired detective.

854
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:25,199
Speaker 3: I could google him.

855
00:46:25,199 --> 00:46:28,679
Speaker 1: I think he's the retired police detective who's the cold

856
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,639
case for christ or something. Like that, Jay, or have

857
00:46:32,639 --> 00:46:33,960
you ever read any of this stuff there?

858
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not nearly as widely read as I

859
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,559
would like to be because the physical act of reading

860
00:46:39,559 --> 00:46:42,239
books is difficult for me and audio books take time.

861
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 1: So yeah, gotcha, Yeah, I.

862
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:47,599
Speaker 3: Do have this book.

863
00:46:47,639 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: It's cold Case Christianity is the name of the title colon.

864
00:46:51,199 --> 00:46:56,400
A homicide detective investigates the what is it, the claims

865
00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,599
of the Gospel. To be honest, I was hope when

866
00:47:00,599 --> 00:47:04,360
I started reading this book, because he was a detective,

867
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:12,079
that he would be investigating the actual claims from a

868
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,480
evidentiary standpoint. That is not what he does in the book.

869
00:47:16,559 --> 00:47:19,320
If you read that book, just within the first chapter,

870
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:23,320
he abandons every technique that we use in the criminal

871
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,159
justice system or the civil justice system. Quite frankly, when

872
00:47:26,159 --> 00:47:31,199
we come to vetting evidence, he makes the fallacy of

873
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,880
saying that eyewitness testimony is reliable as the call as

874
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:39,960
whoever left this message thinks is true, when in reality,

875
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:45,400
the statistics just don't play that out at all. Every

876
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,199
lawyer in the world worth their salt will admit that

877
00:47:48,599 --> 00:47:54,559
eyewitness testimony is very, very easily corrupted in the sense

878
00:47:54,599 --> 00:47:58,679
of people can truly believe what they think they're testifying about.

879
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:01,760
They can blue believe their testimony, but they can be

880
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,480
mistaken for a wide variety of reasons. So I do

881
00:48:06,559 --> 00:48:09,400
not recommend the book unless you can get it from

882
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:13,360
the library or a friend hast unless.

883
00:48:13,039 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 3: It lend it to you.

884
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,280
Speaker 1: But again, if you just take a highlighter and go

885
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,119
through the first chapter, I should pull it out. It's

886
00:48:19,119 --> 00:48:22,480
somewhere over here, we could talk about it. Where did

887
00:48:22,519 --> 00:48:22,800
it go?

888
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:24,039
Speaker 3: I don't have it ready.

889
00:48:24,039 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 1: It's up here somewhere. It's just filled with inconsistencies. And

890
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,599
he starts like he held on for like five ten

891
00:48:31,679 --> 00:48:35,159
paragraphs of talking about his background and why the investigatory

892
00:48:35,199 --> 00:48:37,880
method is so important, and then he misapplies it and

893
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,960
makes a bunch of unsupported assertions. So have you had

894
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,320
any people claim to you, Jamie, that eyewitnessed to ay,

895
00:48:44,639 --> 00:48:47,960
that eyewitness testimony is very reliable, that we should believe

896
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,920
people because they say they saw something, and b that

897
00:48:51,039 --> 00:48:55,159
claim that anything in the Gospels is in fact eyewitness testimony.

898
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty common. There's a there's a visiting tolockey

899
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:02,920
who's calling on of your shows who sort of seems

900
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:08,280
to have the standpoint that that the eyewitnesses that are

901
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,880
mentioned not only are they eyewitnesses in the Bible, but

902
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,920
they are more likely to be telling the truth than

903
00:49:14,079 --> 00:49:16,559
would normally be. And I'm like, how how you fig

904
00:49:16,559 --> 00:49:19,800
of that? And it comes often now use arguments like well,

905
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,119
they died for their beliefs, so they must have been true,

906
00:49:22,119 --> 00:49:24,280
And it's like that just means they thought they were true,

907
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,719
They believed them enough to put their life on it.

908
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:32,159
But even even just being a human being, like going

909
00:49:32,199 --> 00:49:37,280
throughout this world and knowing my own flaw flaws like this,

910
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:41,599
this terribly put together water called meat computer is not

911
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:48,159
is not great at an image retention and recall, Like

912
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,039
memories are just our brain telling us the closest approximation

913
00:49:52,199 --> 00:49:56,719
story of what we actually experienced and were unreliable, And

914
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,119
there's so like you said, there's so many reasons people

915
00:49:59,119 --> 00:50:01,719
can be complete telling what they think is the truth

916
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,159
and be wrong and be mistaken. They don't have to

917
00:50:04,159 --> 00:50:07,599
be lying, they could just be wrong, and even just

918
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:10,920
false memories can just be I think I mentioned this

919
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,320
when I was backing up a previous show, that I

920
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,320
have a memory, a vivid memory, a memory so so

921
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,960
clear that I believe that I would I would withstand

922
00:50:21,159 --> 00:50:25,519
physical torment rather than deny that it was real. But

923
00:50:25,639 --> 00:50:28,000
I have zero evidence that it actually happened. It was

924
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:32,000
an advert I think I think happened, but I've never

925
00:50:32,039 --> 00:50:34,079
been able to track it down. No one's ever heard

926
00:50:34,119 --> 00:50:38,400
of it. But it was so vivid. But knowing that

927
00:50:38,519 --> 00:50:41,400
my mind is fallible when people say no, no, it's

928
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:45,519
a testimony, it's bulletproof, and my like tissue paper's bulletproof.

929
00:50:45,599 --> 00:50:49,320
Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah, I mean yeah, part of what you're

930
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,239
describing could fall into the Mendela effect, right, the the

931
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:57,519
the concept or the experience that many people have had

932
00:50:57,559 --> 00:51:01,679
of a societal collective memory that was just absolutely wrong.

933
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:05,039
Speaker 3: People in the.

934
00:51:07,039 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 1: I think this is in the nineties when it got

935
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:13,199
his name, people thought they collectively believed that Nelson Mandela

936
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:17,159
had died in prison in the eighties, which was not true.

937
00:51:17,199 --> 00:51:19,519
But you know, people were interviewing people all over the

938
00:51:19,519 --> 00:51:21,599
world and they all like, yeah, he died in prison,

939
00:51:21,679 --> 00:51:23,760
that's what made him famous. But no, he died in

940
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,360
twenty thirteen. You know, he had a rifled age.

941
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 2: He ran a country first, Yeah.

942
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,760
Speaker 1: Exactly, And so they call it the Mendela effect. But

943
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,440
there's lots of examples of it, like, hey, through the

944
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,000
loom underwear tag doesn't have a cornucopia sign on it.

945
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:43,519
Uh ben Stein bez Yeah, wrong names, or there was

946
00:51:43,599 --> 00:51:46,159
I remember there was one about a movie, the Shazam

947
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,880
movie or something like that where a famous basketball player

948
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,000
was supposed to have played a genie and that never

949
00:51:52,079 --> 00:51:54,480
took place, but people will swear that it happened. So

950
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,400
and that's on just sort of obscure stuff. But just

951
00:51:57,519 --> 00:52:00,440
go to a Penn and Teller show right and tell

952
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,119
me that the ball was under the cup or wasn't

953
00:52:03,159 --> 00:52:05,480
under the cup? Right? You can't tell. And people will

954
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:10,159
see something, believe that their senses are reliable enough to

955
00:52:10,679 --> 00:52:13,039
depend upon it, and then they will swear that that's

956
00:52:13,119 --> 00:52:16,440
the truth. And that's not necessarily the problem. The problem

957
00:52:16,519 --> 00:52:19,880
is that the finder of fact, the judge or the

958
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,840
jury puts too much weight on a single eyewitness. If

959
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:25,960
you get a whole bunch, maybe it's more reliable. But

960
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,199
when you're dealing with the Bible, you don't have any

961
00:52:29,199 --> 00:52:31,199
of that. At least with the Gospels. There are no

962
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:36,159
eyewitness testimonies in the Gospels. The Gospels were written by

963
00:52:36,199 --> 00:52:38,280
people that we don't know who they are. They are

964
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:41,760
anonymous church traditions says it's Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

965
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,079
But if you open up any Bible worth its salt,

966
00:52:44,159 --> 00:52:47,519
it will tell you the Christian PhDs who put the

967
00:52:47,559 --> 00:52:50,039
Bible together will write and explain to you. We call

968
00:52:50,119 --> 00:52:53,639
them Matthew, Mark, Luke and John because that is church tradition,

969
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,280
quote unquote, that's the polite way of saying. We used

970
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,400
to lie to people and say it was written by Matthew, Mark,

971
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,920
Luke and John a long time, and now that people

972
00:53:02,159 --> 00:53:05,719
understand that that's impossible, we alwill just call it church tradition.

973
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,599
Speaker 2: And it's not just the Gospel of the Gospel of

974
00:53:09,679 --> 00:53:12,559
John that that literally says at the start that I

975
00:53:12,599 --> 00:53:15,199
am collecting the story like yes, it says.

976
00:53:15,679 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 1: Witness, I am not an eyewitness. I am a reporter

977
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,639
of stories like he goes that far like everybody else.

978
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,559
And of course they're all written at least a generation

979
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,239
or more after the death of Jesus and the events

980
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,360
that they claim they are portrayed. But even if they were,

981
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:32,920
let's say they were talking to eyewitnesses. Most of them

982
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,280
were not, but let's assume they were. Somebody comes to

983
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,559
you and says yeah, yeah, I saw this guy there.

984
00:53:39,639 --> 00:53:41,559
There was there was no wine, and all of a

985
00:53:41,559 --> 00:53:44,000
sudden he turned the water into wine. Like, okay, is

986
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:48,400
that enough for you to believe that there's an afterlife,

987
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,239
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, that you know the

988
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,599
mind of a being that created the universe and that

989
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:54,039
it wants you to do something.

990
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:56,320
Speaker 3: No, it's not.

991
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 1: Nobody in the right mind would say that, but it

992
00:53:59,519 --> 00:54:00,840
convinces people for some reason.

993
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 2: If I witness testimony was so gosh dang reliable, we

994
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:05,559
wouldn't have invented dash counts.

995
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 1: Excellent point, excellent point. All right, another communication that we got.

996
00:54:12,039 --> 00:54:15,360
Let's go with number three. We'll put that one up.

997
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,880
And number three says, don't you feel shy? And I

998
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:20,280
think maybe that means ashamed?

999
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:21,800
Speaker 3: Oh? Here it is.

1000
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 1: We've got music to it again. At least I'm hearing music.

1001
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:26,079
I don't know if you are. Don't you feel shy

1002
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:31,199
when you believe in nothingness created everything by randomness? Do

1003
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:36,880
you have brains or what is up there? Lol? So

1004
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:42,039
that's a great question. Do I feel shy slash ashamed

1005
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,000
when I believe in nothingness created everything by randomness? So

1006
00:54:46,599 --> 00:54:48,920
I'm going to turn it over to you, Jamie. Can

1007
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,079
you fall? Can you spot the straw men and the

1008
00:54:52,119 --> 00:54:53,000
false premises?

1009
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 2: Well, I might feel ashamed to believe that everything came

1010
00:54:56,239 --> 00:55:01,679
from nothingness if I believed that, but I don't. What

1011
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:06,360
I believe is I don't know where everything came from

1012
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,719
because as far as I'm aware, and I'm not a cosmologist,

1013
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,840
I'm not a physicist, but I trust the evidences that

1014
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,719
have been put forward by cosmologists and physicists that there

1015
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:18,760
is this thing called the plank time. It is the

1016
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,599
smallest amount of time, and before the first plank time

1017
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:26,519
start of the universe, we literally can't know what's happening. Then,

1018
00:55:26,559 --> 00:55:30,360
at least under our current models, math breaks down all

1019
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,880
this kind of stuff. And in fact, is it not

1020
00:55:33,119 --> 00:55:37,960
the Christians themselves who believe in creation ex nihilo, because

1021
00:55:38,039 --> 00:55:41,159
from nothing God made everything? And then we get into

1022
00:55:41,199 --> 00:55:44,519
special pleading. Man, it's just fallacies all the way down, mate.

1023
00:55:44,639 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely.

1024
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 1: As for the straw man, I am in with you.

1025
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:52,599
To believe something is to accept it as true if

1026
00:55:52,599 --> 00:55:56,159
you assume that definition of believes. And no, I do

1027
00:55:56,239 --> 00:56:03,039
not believe that nothing, nothings created everything by randomness. There's

1028
00:56:03,079 --> 00:56:05,920
like three or four problems there. I'm not sure there

1029
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,159
was ever any nothingness in a way that even makes

1030
00:56:09,199 --> 00:56:11,840
sense to us. I don't know, and I don't think you,

1031
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,679
as a Christian do either. I think that you assume

1032
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:16,920
that God is outside in space and time and for

1033
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,679
all intents and purposes, has always been and will always be.

1034
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,199
So there was never any nothingness in your belief system.

1035
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:25,920
Maybe there was never any nothingness here. I also think

1036
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:28,400
there's a problem with the definition of nothingness. When you

1037
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:31,239
speak of nothingness, you're thinking of a different nothingness than

1038
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:34,280
most physicists do. Of you know, some sort of quantum

1039
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:37,400
field of potentiality is like the only thing that could

1040
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:41,400
even exist according to the math. But my answer to

1041
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:44,239
that is I don't know, right, I don't know. I

1042
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:48,239
don't accept it as true that a there was a nothingness,

1043
00:56:48,519 --> 00:56:50,639
that if there was a nothing this quote unquote, it

1044
00:56:50,679 --> 00:56:54,000
had the power to create much less did create something

1045
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:58,599
everything And by randomness is another phrase you tacked on there,

1046
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:04,159
that is meaningless. It's a word that apologists try to

1047
00:57:04,199 --> 00:57:08,119
throw out there to convince people, usually people who are

1048
00:57:08,159 --> 00:57:10,679
already convinced. It's just sort of making people feel better

1049
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:15,119
about their belief systems. Yeah, that's shown right in the

1050
00:57:15,199 --> 00:57:20,119
junk yard, right, just randomness without explaining anything. So I

1051
00:57:20,199 --> 00:57:24,039
will say what I do believe. I do believe that

1052
00:57:24,159 --> 00:57:28,079
we know a hell of a lot about what Jamie described,

1053
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:32,960
where everything was very very very very very very soon

1054
00:57:33,079 --> 00:57:37,039
after an event that seems to have been stemming from

1055
00:57:37,079 --> 00:57:40,639
some sort of singularity, some single point where everything was

1056
00:57:40,679 --> 00:57:44,159
at that point and everything since then makes sense, and

1057
00:57:44,239 --> 00:57:47,239
all the evidence we've ever collected about it says it's true.

1058
00:57:47,639 --> 00:57:50,280
Just like the Catholic priests who proposed the Big Bang,

1059
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,280
just like the many churches around the world who accept

1060
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:58,599
the premise that fourteen point whatever billion years ago everything

1061
00:57:58,679 --> 00:58:01,199
was in this point, I know what happened before that,

1062
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,239
or even the concept of before that makes sense? No,

1063
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:06,599
does that mean I think it didn't happen.

1064
00:58:06,679 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 7: No?

1065
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,679
Speaker 1: Does I think it means that it created something?

1066
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 3: No?

1067
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,159
Speaker 1: My answer is I don't know. And that's the point.

1068
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:14,039
You should be.

1069
00:58:14,519 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 3: You should be.

1070
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:17,960
Speaker 1: You should feel a little silly for saying aren't you

1071
00:58:18,039 --> 00:58:21,960
ashamed that you believe this thing? When, in reality, the

1072
00:58:22,079 --> 00:58:25,679
adult way to respond to any of those questions to say,

1073
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:29,079
I don't know, but I strongly suspect based on your

1074
00:58:29,119 --> 00:58:32,039
mocking attitude that you would come in and say I

1075
00:58:32,079 --> 00:58:34,840
know that God created everything, and that in and of

1076
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,079
itself is really as you said. You should be a

1077
00:58:37,119 --> 00:58:37,960
bit shy about that.

1078
00:58:38,199 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 5: Now.

1079
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:42,519
Speaker 2: As for the no brains up there, you've got me

1080
00:58:42,719 --> 00:58:45,440
dead to rights. Hamsters on the wheel. His name is

1081
00:58:45,519 --> 00:58:48,280
Jeff and he's a good little boy.

1082
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 3: Good little hamster up there.

1083
00:58:49,119 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 1: Huh all right?

1084
00:58:51,559 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 2: Umm, looks like someone. Oh we were having someone screened.

1085
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:55,639
Speaker 5: But I.

1086
00:58:57,280 --> 00:58:58,199
Speaker 3: Do have to apologize.

1087
00:58:58,199 --> 00:59:01,159
Speaker 1: We are having technical difficulties with the I saw the

1088
00:59:01,239 --> 00:59:03,880
call room reset again. I did see a caller pop

1089
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:05,800
in and pop out. I don't know if that was

1090
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:06,239
a test.

1091
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 2: We do want to talk to you.

1092
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:12,159
Speaker 3: We're not scared, Yes, absolutely all right.

1093
00:59:12,239 --> 00:59:15,079
Speaker 1: So let's go on to another I think we have

1094
00:59:15,119 --> 00:59:21,480
a voicemail, Yes we do, so, queuing the the crew here.

1095
00:59:21,519 --> 00:59:25,000
We did get a voicemail whose title is The King

1096
00:59:25,119 --> 00:59:27,480
James Bible is Proof. So while we're waiting for people

1097
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,199
to call back in, perhaps we could listen to this voicemail.

1098
00:59:30,199 --> 00:59:32,239
Who's a caller it called earlier? Couldn't be during the

1099
00:59:32,239 --> 00:59:35,079
live show and see what they have to say.

1100
00:59:35,119 --> 00:59:36,239
Speaker 3: So take it away, crew.

1101
00:59:36,559 --> 00:59:38,679
Speaker 4: So I wanted to call to just talk to you

1102
00:59:38,719 --> 00:59:42,000
guys about the teleological argument. I guess that's why I'm

1103
00:59:42,079 --> 00:59:44,199
leaving this maybe so somebody else would hear this and

1104
00:59:44,239 --> 00:59:46,519
potentially think about it, because there comes a point where

1105
00:59:46,559 --> 00:59:49,800
you're dismissing evidence, then you might not be interested in believing.

1106
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:52,440
But anyways, so evidence is just an available body of

1107
00:59:52,519 --> 00:59:56,039
facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is

1108
00:59:56,079 --> 00:59:58,679
true beyond a reasonable doubt. And if something has a

1109
00:59:58,719 --> 01:00:01,679
low chance of being true, then you probably wouldn't want

1110
01:00:01,679 --> 01:00:03,760
to believe it, right, Like, if something has a really

1111
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:06,679
low chance of being true based on evidence, say with

1112
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,360
all the evidence, we come up with an actual calculation

1113
01:00:09,519 --> 01:00:11,960
that shows how low of percentage or how low of

1114
01:00:12,039 --> 01:00:15,639
a number between one and whatever there is of it

1115
01:00:15,719 --> 01:00:17,760
being true. And so if something is a low chance

1116
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:19,679
of being true, you don't want to put your belief

1117
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:22,679
in that. Right, which atheism is a belief believe means

1118
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:25,760
to accept it as true. And you guys, as atheists,

1119
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:27,960
do accept it as true, the idea that there is

1120
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,840
no God right, Thus it is a belief. And I'm

1121
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:33,280
not saying you guys are to night, I'm just saying anyway,

1122
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,159
So if atheism were to have a low chance of

1123
01:00:36,199 --> 01:00:39,000
being true based on the evidence, would you still believe it?

1124
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:41,599
Speaker 1: So thank you crew for that one. I'll take the

1125
01:00:41,599 --> 01:00:44,559
first hack at this one. I can see you drowning

1126
01:00:44,599 --> 01:00:49,760
in frustration, something we get all the time. So eye

1127
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:53,519
rolling is appropriate here. So there's several there's several problems here.

1128
01:00:53,559 --> 01:00:55,360
I do want to thank the caller for calling in,

1129
01:00:55,400 --> 01:01:00,920
but I do think you need to adjust your definition's

1130
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:04,199
a bit, or at least use different words. I'm not

1131
01:01:04,199 --> 01:01:06,639
going to make an argument from definition here. I can

1132
01:01:06,679 --> 01:01:09,679
speak for myself, and I think I can speak for Jamie.

1133
01:01:09,719 --> 01:01:14,159
He'll correct me if I'm wrong. The type of atheism

1134
01:01:14,239 --> 01:01:16,880
that most people I interact with on this show and

1135
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:21,079
in the world is a type that just says, when asked,

1136
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:24,400
are you convinced that there is a God? My answer

1137
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:26,039
is I am not currently convinced.

1138
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:26,719
Speaker 3: That's it.

1139
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:29,559
Speaker 1: That's what atheism is. It's like going to court and

1140
01:01:29,599 --> 01:01:32,719
being a juror and then saying, are you convinced that

1141
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:36,000
the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? Is a

1142
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,199
different standard, But let's say are you convinced and you

1143
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:42,599
say no, You can't turn around and say aha, therefore

1144
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:46,480
you think he's innocent right. No, not guilty means I

1145
01:01:46,519 --> 01:01:50,480
haven't yet been convinced to whatever standard of proof is

1146
01:01:50,559 --> 01:01:53,840
on the party making the claim. In criminal cases, that's

1147
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:55,880
beyond a reasonable doubt. In the civil case, it's the

1148
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:58,360
preponderance of the evidence, like a fifty one percent type

1149
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:01,320
of rule. The best I am going to reach off

1150
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:02,719
of I am going to reach off of my.

1151
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 3: Bookcase.

1152
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,039
Speaker 1: The best analogy I ever saw was long ago on

1153
01:02:08,079 --> 01:02:11,400
this show. Somebody had some marbles and I would ask you,

1154
01:02:11,559 --> 01:02:15,159
are you convinced that this jar I'm holding has an

1155
01:02:15,199 --> 01:02:17,920
odd number of marbles in it? And if you say no,

1156
01:02:18,519 --> 01:02:21,199
I can say aha, so you are convinced that it's

1157
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:24,880
even right. No, you're not convinced that it's either. The

1158
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:27,239
answer is I don't know if it's odd or even,

1159
01:02:27,239 --> 01:02:29,320
because I would have to take them out and count them.

1160
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:31,280
And that leads me to your second point, when you

1161
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:34,960
start getting into, like you said, the teleological arguments, the

1162
01:02:35,159 --> 01:02:38,800
fine tuning arguments of that sort of stuff. Anytime anybody

1163
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:41,159
brings up with me, what are the odds it's so

1164
01:02:42,159 --> 01:02:46,920
unlikely that whatever. As we were discussing before the show again, Jamie,

1165
01:02:47,119 --> 01:02:49,599
my first question is, what is your denominator, and I

1166
01:02:49,639 --> 01:02:52,920
don't mean like in a funny sense, literally do the math.

1167
01:02:53,039 --> 01:02:57,039
Show me the math. Because your denominator is made up,

1168
01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:59,679
I will be convinced. If you don't have math to

1169
01:02:59,719 --> 01:03:02,000
show me, then we can't have a conversation. All you're

1170
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:04,880
saying is this is very unlikely. And that bit boils

1171
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:08,320
down to an argument from it personal and creulity, also

1172
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:11,639
known as the argument of ignorance. I can't imagine that

1173
01:03:12,239 --> 01:03:15,320
X would have happened, or that why would be the

1174
01:03:15,519 --> 01:03:20,400
likely outcome. Therefore, because I can't imagine it, it couldn't

1175
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:22,679
have happened, or it is very unlikely because I can't

1176
01:03:22,679 --> 01:03:25,360
imagine it. So I'll turn it over to you, Jamie.

1177
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:26,840
I'm sure there's more to pick a part here.

1178
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:29,559
Speaker 2: I mean, there's examples we can give of a counter

1179
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:32,719
arguments to the theological argument. The fact that we can

1180
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:35,719
point out that you are making the assumption, and we

1181
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:38,480
all know about Okham's raises and assumptions, who should make

1182
01:03:38,519 --> 01:03:41,679
as few as possible. You're making the assumption that the

1183
01:03:41,719 --> 01:03:43,880
current state of the universe, or life on Earth or

1184
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:48,679
human humanity is the goal or target of the processes

1185
01:03:48,719 --> 01:03:53,000
of the universe, rather than just an effect. The analogy

1186
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:57,480
that Douglas Adams gave about the puddle, like the water

1187
01:03:57,559 --> 01:03:59,119
lies in the puddle and it's like, oh, this puddle

1188
01:03:59,199 --> 01:04:01,119
is perfect for me. It must have been made just

1189
01:04:01,159 --> 01:04:04,880
for me. But no, you you filled the you know,

1190
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:06,239
just the way it is.

1191
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 1: It is my favorite analogy, the sentient puddle waking up

1192
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:14,039
and going, wow, I fit perfectly into this hole.

1193
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:15,159
Speaker 3: What are the odds?

1194
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 2: And so the yeah, as you saw me, my eyes

1195
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:26,440
click swiveling that hole like you're you're an atheist, therefore

1196
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:29,440
you believe God doesn't exist? No, I don't. It's why

1197
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:32,599
we phrase the question in the pole Chat today the

1198
01:04:32,639 --> 01:04:36,159
way we did. It's it's of the crime of existing.

1199
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:40,440
We find God guilty or not guilty, not innocent, you know,

1200
01:04:40,599 --> 01:04:44,239
It's like it's it's it's we don't. I don't make

1201
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:47,440
positive truth claims unless I'm damn certain I'm ready to

1202
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:50,519
back it up with some kind of evidence or convincing argument.

1203
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:52,719
Speaker 1: And we should and we should talk about that like

1204
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:55,119
this is actually a good caller, even though he's not

1205
01:04:55,159 --> 01:04:57,920
on the line here, because it isn't. It's it's incredibly

1206
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:01,039
important to not only this issue, but the issue of

1207
01:05:01,039 --> 01:05:04,079
dealing with claims made on social media, the rise of AI,

1208
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:08,519
fake images and fake videos. You know, evidence, the concept

1209
01:05:08,519 --> 01:05:12,320
of evidence and the concept of sufficiency of the evidence

1210
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:14,800
to accept a claim is really really important, and I

1211
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:17,920
don't think enough people organize their thoughts about that. So

1212
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:22,000
if you don't mind, I'll sort of mention a few

1213
01:05:22,039 --> 01:05:25,119
concepts there, and I'd love to get your reactions. So, first,

1214
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:30,079
the caller said, evidence is just available and available body

1215
01:05:30,119 --> 01:05:34,239
of facts or information indicating whether belief or proposition is

1216
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:37,800
true beyond a reasonable doubt. So there's lots of definitions

1217
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:39,400
of evidence, and I don't like to get into argues

1218
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:41,800
about definitions. I want to make sure you understand my

1219
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:44,280
concept and then we can talk about that concept. So

1220
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:48,079
in the legal realm, I find the definition of evidence

1221
01:05:48,159 --> 01:05:53,599
to be useful. Evidence is anything any claim or assertion

1222
01:05:54,519 --> 01:05:59,559
that makes a proposition more likely or less likely to

1223
01:05:59,639 --> 01:06:02,400
be true, not that it makes it true beyond a

1224
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:04,880
reasonable doubt. So you know, when you look at the

1225
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:06,960
Federal Rules of Evidence in the United States, you have

1226
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:09,719
to define what evidence is. First, evidence is anything that's

1227
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:12,400
going to make something more or less likely true. Well,

1228
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:17,360
given that almost everything is evidence, right, I played tennis.

1229
01:06:17,519 --> 01:06:21,159
If I testify I played tennis at the murder trial

1230
01:06:21,239 --> 01:06:24,320
of the billionaire, They're going to go, what's the how

1231
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:26,760
is that evidence? How is that relevant? And you could say, well,

1232
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:28,840
the victim was a tennis player, and they both went

1233
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:30,760
to this. You know this, and it's likely that this

1234
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:34,800
person knew the terms that were, like anything can be

1235
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:37,960
evidence under the Federal rules of Evidence. But then the

1236
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:41,920
Federal rules of Evidence say all evidence is admissible. As

1237
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:44,239
long as it's evidence, you can admit it. Okay, So

1238
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:46,800
you can admit anything, any testimony is evidence. And then

1239
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:50,639
the rest of the Federal rules of evidence are exceptions

1240
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:54,920
except you can't you can't introduce this sort of evidence

1241
01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:58,119
or that sort of evidence. And it's important to understand

1242
01:06:58,119 --> 01:07:00,440
how we got there. This wasn't just me up by

1243
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:03,760
some professor one year. This is you may have heard

1244
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:07,320
of the thing called the the Magna carta, okay, eight

1245
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:10,840
hundred years ago, however long it was. That was sort

1246
01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:12,920
of the start of the modern civil justice system, at

1247
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:16,320
least in the in the West, and that that was

1248
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:19,960
a many hundred years process of judges coming up with

1249
01:07:20,039 --> 01:07:23,719
these rules. And where they come from is human experience

1250
01:07:23,719 --> 01:07:27,360
shows certain types of evidence is unreliable. Number one that

1251
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:30,559
everybody thinks of is hearsay. I can't go to go

1252
01:07:30,639 --> 01:07:35,639
to trial and say, well, Jamie said that he saw

1253
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:39,840
that dude, shoot that shoot the victim. Immediate objection. That's hearsay.

1254
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:42,519
If I say it, They're gonna have a maybe having

1255
01:07:42,519 --> 01:07:46,639
a mistrial, right because we have learned that are you know,

1256
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:51,920
me testifying about an out of court's presence witnesses experiences

1257
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:56,199
is so unreliable for the variety of reasons that it is,

1258
01:07:56,519 --> 01:07:59,480
we are better served in our justice system to ban

1259
01:07:59,679 --> 01:08:03,559
that type of testimony rather than admit it because it

1260
01:08:03,679 --> 01:08:06,440
might be helpful. And the reason I bring up here,

1261
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:09,519
say is what is the Bible? What are the Gospels

1262
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:14,079
if not a mountain of two thousand year old hearsay?

1263
01:08:14,199 --> 01:08:17,359
So sorry, that was my rant about the importance of

1264
01:08:17,359 --> 01:08:19,039
evidence and what evidence is and isn't.

1265
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:21,840
Speaker 3: What are your thoughts there, Jamie.

1266
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:25,079
Speaker 2: I mean I come with a more lay person perspective, obviously,

1267
01:08:25,119 --> 01:08:27,560
but I get to the same point where anything can

1268
01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:30,279
be evidence. I absolutely agree with you on that because

1269
01:08:30,319 --> 01:08:32,840
people have come to us with all kinds of stuff

1270
01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:35,239
as evidence for their belief, and I just take evidence

1271
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:40,920
as any anything that either brings you to a belief

1272
01:08:41,039 --> 01:08:45,479
or strengthens your belief in a belief in some fact

1273
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:50,119
or some perceived fact, some perceived truth. So I it

1274
01:08:50,159 --> 01:08:53,159
could literally be anything. And that's when we come to

1275
01:08:53,359 --> 01:08:57,840
like the strength of the evidence, that the how compelling

1276
01:08:57,880 --> 01:09:01,079
it is to whomever else is judging it. So they

1277
01:09:01,159 --> 01:09:04,520
say PSA doesn't compel us very much. But some people

1278
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:07,079
are compelled by SA. Religious people.

1279
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:12,279
Speaker 1: And let's put them in the same category as people

1280
01:09:12,319 --> 01:09:16,760
who buy time shares, people who believe TikTok videos. It's

1281
01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:21,600
not it's Humans tend to respond well to con men.

1282
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:24,760
Con Men are people who gain your what con stands

1283
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:31,640
for confidence, a confidence man. They inure confidence because of

1284
01:09:32,239 --> 01:09:34,680
the tricks they've learned on how to hold themselves. Maybe

1285
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:39,039
they're handsome or pretty. They're confident to themselves. And when

1286
01:09:39,119 --> 01:09:42,520
you combine that with two thousand year old knowledge out

1287
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:44,239
of a book that you can wave around and say

1288
01:09:44,279 --> 01:09:47,199
it's been around for two thousand years, you gain the

1289
01:09:47,199 --> 01:09:48,119
confidence of a lot of.

1290
01:09:48,119 --> 01:09:54,359
Speaker 2: People, especially if the evidence aligns with your already preconceived

1291
01:09:54,359 --> 01:10:00,720
notions about yourself or the world. And I love I

1292
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:02,680
love stories of con men, and I love you know

1293
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,319
the movies and shows and stuff about that, but there

1294
01:10:05,319 --> 01:10:08,960
are certain things that come up that I always take

1295
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,840
as axioms for myself, where you know, you can't con

1296
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:14,199
an honest man. So if someone's actually honest with themselves,

1297
01:10:14,199 --> 01:10:18,039
they're very difficult to con because they'll be introspective and

1298
01:10:18,399 --> 01:10:22,199
always look a gift horse in the mouth. So unless

1299
01:10:22,239 --> 01:10:25,680
you don't mind it being full of Greek soldiers, that's right.

1300
01:10:26,119 --> 01:10:29,640
Speaker 1: That's right, And there's a there's a there's a few

1301
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:32,199
more points in this caller before we wrap it up,

1302
01:10:33,439 --> 01:10:35,520
so I think we address it already, but I do

1303
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:36,479
want to make it clear.

1304
01:10:37,119 --> 01:10:37,520
Speaker 3: Uh.

1305
01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:42,119
Speaker 1: The caller characterized it as believing in atheism. If you

1306
01:10:42,199 --> 01:10:46,960
are well read and you understand what atheism is or

1307
01:10:47,239 --> 01:10:50,000
what people usually mean by atheism, you'll understand that that

1308
01:10:50,199 --> 01:10:53,560
is a is a weird concept. It's a nonsense concept.

1309
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:57,800
So people do not believe in atheism. They either accept

1310
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:01,039
the claim of a particular God or they don't, but

1311
01:11:01,079 --> 01:11:03,800
they don't believe in atheisms. There are people out there

1312
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:08,000
who will go further and say I actively believe that

1313
01:11:08,079 --> 01:11:11,920
there are no beings or entities in the universe that

1314
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:15,279
would qualify or any other universe are in all known

1315
01:11:15,319 --> 01:11:18,399
and unknown space and time that would qualify as a god. Right,

1316
01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:21,039
And I agree with a caller that if you're making

1317
01:11:21,119 --> 01:11:25,840
that claim that hey, this is definitely not true. Now

1318
01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:28,560
you've assumed the burden of proof. The burden of proof

1319
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:31,720
is very important. If you are the one making the claim,

1320
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:33,600
you need to back it up. So I don't go

1321
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:36,000
out here saying there is definitely not a god. I

1322
01:11:36,119 --> 01:11:38,560
will say there are certain gods that we can use

1323
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:42,239
logic to disprove. If there's a god that you believe

1324
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:47,239
thinks that the sky is both blue and not blue,

1325
01:11:47,399 --> 01:11:50,840
or that any given claim is both true and false

1326
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:52,960
at the same time without playing word games, right that

1327
01:11:53,079 --> 01:11:55,399
something is and is not. That violates one of the

1328
01:11:55,439 --> 01:11:58,760
three three core rules of logic. Right, if you believe

1329
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:01,960
in a god that does that. I feel comfortable at

1330
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:05,960
this point saying that's impossible and it can't exist. So

1331
01:12:06,039 --> 01:12:10,479
that god, I will say doesn't exist. But other gods

1332
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:14,039
that are less drastic, I will just say, show me

1333
01:12:14,079 --> 01:12:18,279
the evidence. I'm not convinced, Kama yet, convince me, and

1334
01:12:18,399 --> 01:12:20,640
I'm open to being convinced. I don't know about you, Jamie.

1335
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:23,239
Speaker 2: I mean, I am too I want, I'd like at

1336
01:12:23,319 --> 01:12:25,079
least I like to think so like I want to

1337
01:12:25,159 --> 01:12:27,760
keep an open mind, and I also want to make

1338
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:30,800
sure that I'm embodying the idea that skepticism is not

1339
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:34,399
synonymous with cynicism. I'm not denying things out of hand.

1340
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:37,000
I think a lot of callers that call us think

1341
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:39,119
that we're just shooting them down because we won't. We

1342
01:12:39,199 --> 01:12:42,359
won't accept any evidence and everything. You know, we're never

1343
01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:46,560
ever ever going to be convinced of anything. I've backed

1344
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:49,560
down on certain things, and maybe people might in this

1345
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:52,359
community might side ie me for it, Like I won't

1346
01:12:52,479 --> 01:12:55,079
argue the klum anymore because I'll just go, yeah, well,

1347
01:12:55,159 --> 01:12:58,520
you know, everything must have a cause. Therefore there's a

1348
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:00,760
first cause, and now where do we get from there?

1349
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:05,359
Like I can't sufficiently argue it, other people can, So

1350
01:13:05,439 --> 01:13:08,479
I'll say, yeah, find there's a first cause of some kind.

1351
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:12,079
How can you then lead me to God?

1352
01:13:12,399 --> 01:13:12,520
Speaker 3: Like?

1353
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:14,880
Speaker 2: Where do we go from a first cause? That could

1354
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:19,000
just be another naturalistic phenomenon right to shellfish butt stuff?

1355
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:23,119
Speaker 1: You know, it's as our host j Mike, who we

1356
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:26,520
miss as was unable to be with us today, would say,

1357
01:13:26,720 --> 01:13:29,760
you give them all the toys and they still can't

1358
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:33,800
make the case it's very true, maybe should get I

1359
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:36,439
think that leads to one other concept to point out

1360
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:41,840
to people, which is the apportionment of belief slash skepticism

1361
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:45,439
to the claim. Right that if I come to you

1362
01:13:45,479 --> 01:13:47,359
and say, I, this is the one I use all

1363
01:13:47,399 --> 01:13:51,199
the time, I had a tuna fish sandwich for lunch today.

1364
01:13:51,319 --> 01:13:53,720
You don't know that I had a tuna fish sandwich

1365
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:56,039
for lunch today, but you know that there are things

1366
01:13:56,079 --> 01:13:58,920
called tuna fish and that people make sandwiches out of them,

1367
01:13:58,960 --> 01:14:01,640
and people eat things called lunch and you know me

1368
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:05,079
a bit, and there's no real risk for you accepting

1369
01:14:05,119 --> 01:14:06,640
that claim as true.

1370
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:07,079
Speaker 3: Right.

1371
01:14:07,119 --> 01:14:08,880
Speaker 1: But then if I came to you and said, oh,

1372
01:14:08,920 --> 01:14:11,439
and I ate the tuna fish sandwich on a flying

1373
01:14:11,479 --> 01:14:15,079
saucer piloted by a dinosaur, now all of a sudden,

1374
01:14:15,319 --> 01:14:18,399
you're going to be very skeptical about at least those things.

1375
01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:18,640
Speaker 3: Right.

1376
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:23,199
Speaker 1: So the common phrase is, you know, is that you

1377
01:14:23,239 --> 01:14:27,159
apportion your belief to the evidence. Or you can say

1378
01:14:27,199 --> 01:14:31,920
that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That's why I always

1379
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:35,520
use the term sufficient evidence. People will this guy even

1380
01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:37,920
used it proof. The word proof proof is a very

1381
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:41,359
bad word. Don't use that in arguments. And on either

1382
01:14:41,399 --> 01:14:46,079
side talk about sufficient evidence. Is there sufficient evidence to

1383
01:14:46,159 --> 01:14:49,319
accept the claim is true? And before you get on

1384
01:14:49,399 --> 01:14:52,039
us about like is this how you live your lives? Absolutely,

1385
01:14:52,119 --> 01:14:53,479
this is how you should live your life too, and

1386
01:14:53,520 --> 01:14:56,239
you do live your life this way. When when the

1387
01:14:56,359 --> 01:14:58,880
guy comes to you with a multi level marketing scheme

1388
01:14:59,079 --> 01:15:00,640
that he wants you to party, should paid in or

1389
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:04,600
says hey, if you give me one hundred thousand dollars,

1390
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:07,439
I can get my ten million dollar inheritance out of

1391
01:15:07,439 --> 01:15:11,239
the bank in Nigeria and give you part. You exercise skepticism.

1392
01:15:11,319 --> 01:15:14,760
You are skeptical of that. We are skepticisms. We are

1393
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:17,640
skeptics as well. Everybody should be skeptics. It doesn't mean

1394
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:21,119
that skeptics don't believe things. It just means we think

1395
01:15:21,239 --> 01:15:26,680
about a portioning belief to the evidence that based on

1396
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:29,359
the risk, based on the significance, based on what is

1397
01:15:29,359 --> 01:15:33,079
being claimed and the evidence, should I accept this or not?

1398
01:15:33,279 --> 01:15:37,560
And I think in America these days that bar is

1399
01:15:37,760 --> 01:15:40,079
way too low for a lot of claims, everything from

1400
01:15:40,119 --> 01:15:44,760
religion to political stuff to what is a good recipe

1401
01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:45,680
on TikTok?

1402
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:50,960
Speaker 2: And well, while critical thinking and skepticism do take practice.

1403
01:15:51,159 --> 01:15:53,840
You know, you can train yourself, like any skill. Once

1404
01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:57,720
you train yourself in it, it becomes intuitive. It's the reason

1405
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:02,399
why my computer is not filled with digital herciphalades, regardless

1406
01:16:02,439 --> 01:16:04,520
of the sketchiness of the websites I choose to do.

1407
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:11,680
But yeah, I am completely on board with it. Like

1408
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:16,840
you really do. Just apportion the evidence to the claim,

1409
01:16:17,119 --> 01:16:20,520
which is why again I'm happy to say anything that

1410
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:23,600
can even be tangentially proven to be possibly true in

1411
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:26,119
the Bible, I'll give it to you. Jordan's real place,

1412
01:16:26,199 --> 01:16:28,359
Jesus was probably a real dude. I have no argument

1413
01:16:28,399 --> 01:16:30,600
against that. But did he die and come back? Can

1414
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:33,439
you prove that? Can you evidence that to me? Can

1415
01:16:33,439 --> 01:16:35,800
you provide me with sufficient evidence that it's possible for

1416
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:37,760
someone to come back after two and a half days

1417
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:40,399
of death and be cool walking around?

1418
01:16:41,359 --> 01:16:44,239
Speaker 1: And let's realize the definition of death has changed over

1419
01:16:44,279 --> 01:16:49,199
the last two years, right, We've gotten really pretty good

1420
01:16:49,239 --> 01:16:51,960
at detecting death. But it was until recently that we

1421
01:16:52,039 --> 01:16:54,640
associated with brain activity. It used to be breathing, it

1422
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:56,159
used to be motion, it used to be all sorts

1423
01:16:56,199 --> 01:16:58,880
of things. So when you're dealing with two thousand year

1424
01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:01,800
old or in the old estimate, you know, oral tradition

1425
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:04,479
dating back to the Bronze Age that was created by

1426
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:06,840
goat herders that were illiterate and didn't know where the

1427
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:08,720
sun went at night. And then you call in and

1428
01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:12,319
leave a voicemail like this entitled the King James Bible

1429
01:17:12,439 --> 01:17:15,199
is proof.

1430
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:16,439
Speaker 3: He didn't.

1431
01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:19,319
Speaker 1: He was basically saying, you should be ashamed of believing

1432
01:17:19,359 --> 01:17:22,039
these things, believing that there is not a God. But

1433
01:17:23,479 --> 01:17:26,199
the answer to his ultimate question, if his atheism were

1434
01:17:26,239 --> 01:17:28,520
to have a low chance of being true, I don't

1435
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:30,760
know how to answer that, because there's there's no chance

1436
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:33,720
of me not being convinced of something of being true.

1437
01:17:34,039 --> 01:17:38,000
But if your question is, if there was a tremendous

1438
01:17:38,039 --> 01:17:40,920
amount of evidence for the existence of a supernatural being

1439
01:17:41,039 --> 01:17:44,119
resembling that of the Christian God, would I accept it

1440
01:17:44,159 --> 01:17:44,600
as true?

1441
01:17:44,920 --> 01:17:45,159
Speaker 3: Yes.

1442
01:17:45,239 --> 01:17:50,199
Speaker 1: The problem is the claim is so extraordinary that it

1443
01:17:50,199 --> 01:17:54,039
would require such extraordinary evidence that I can't imagine what

1444
01:17:54,119 --> 01:17:56,840
that evidence would be that would be make the existence

1445
01:17:56,880 --> 01:17:59,880
of the God more likely Compared to me hallucinating, I've

1446
01:18:00,279 --> 01:18:04,039
I've hallucinated before. I've told a story about recovering from

1447
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:07,720
my cancer surgery fifteen hour surgery started, get a new

1448
01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:10,800
meds from new pain meds, and thought the nurses were

1449
01:18:10,800 --> 01:18:12,239
trying to kill me and all this sort of stuff,

1450
01:18:12,239 --> 01:18:15,000
and would have sworn under oaths. Absolutely this person was

1451
01:18:15,039 --> 01:18:18,479
trying to steal my wife's purse, switch the meds back. Fine,

1452
01:18:19,199 --> 01:18:21,760
you can be very, very convinced of something and still

1453
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:25,640
not be true. So I prefer the answer I've heard

1454
01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:29,000
from others on this show, which is, if God is

1455
01:18:29,039 --> 01:18:32,920
as powerful as most of his believers seem to think

1456
01:18:32,960 --> 01:18:36,600
he is, then he has the capability to convince me

1457
01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:40,000
whatever that may be, change writing it on my heart,

1458
01:18:40,720 --> 01:18:43,159
giving me some sort of evidence, whatever it may be.

1459
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:46,800
Go watch the movie Contact or read the novel That

1460
01:18:47,000 --> 01:18:51,840
is a great, great exploration of this space of when

1461
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:55,359
is when is it okay to be personally accept a

1462
01:18:55,399 --> 01:18:57,640
claim and when is it okay to then go out

1463
01:18:57,680 --> 01:19:01,279
and argue about that claim being true? And Jodie Foster's

1464
01:19:01,359 --> 01:19:04,800
character rides that line perfectly. Sorry, Jamie, go ahead, let's

1465
01:19:04,880 --> 01:19:06,680
I think we should bring on Scott at some point.

1466
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:09,479
Speaker 2: We have a we have a man in the wings,

1467
01:19:12,439 --> 01:19:16,159
that's me. Do you have any up opinions on anything

1468
01:19:16,199 --> 01:19:18,600
that we have encountered? This show.

1469
01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:22,239
Speaker 7: Yeah, Actually I did want to touch on the voicemail

1470
01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:24,680
and they they they kind of snuck it in there.

1471
01:19:24,680 --> 01:19:26,000
I don't I don't know if you notice it, but

1472
01:19:26,079 --> 01:19:29,239
they said, uh, if we came up with an actual

1473
01:19:29,319 --> 01:19:32,600
calculation that shows how low of a percentage or how

1474
01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:35,319
low of a number between et cetera, et cetera and

1475
01:19:35,359 --> 01:19:39,079
I And I've seen this argument before, and anybody that's

1476
01:19:39,119 --> 01:19:42,199
ever presented this argument has never been able to explain

1477
01:19:42,279 --> 01:19:45,159
how they get that number cross examiner, as you mentioned,

1478
01:19:45,159 --> 01:19:47,640
how do you get that denominator right? And and so

1479
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:51,079
any time I've ever seen any kind of formulation of this,

1480
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:54,439
of this argument, and it you do have to dig

1481
01:19:54,720 --> 01:19:56,319
if you want to, if you really want to see

1482
01:19:56,359 --> 01:19:58,520
how they came up with like one out of ten

1483
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:00,960
to the one and twenty eight, there's something like that.

1484
01:20:01,960 --> 01:20:05,079
It's just assumption layered on top of assumption, layered on

1485
01:20:05,159 --> 01:20:08,039
top of assumption. And then they take all those assumptions

1486
01:20:08,399 --> 01:20:12,760
and they combine them in ways that also require additional assumptions,

1487
01:20:13,159 --> 01:20:14,239
and so it's.

1488
01:20:14,119 --> 01:20:15,359
Speaker 3: Really ply them together.

1489
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:18,079
Speaker 1: So you have exactly exactly gruth.

1490
01:20:18,319 --> 01:20:21,680
Speaker 7: Right, right, And so you know, if you can't at

1491
01:20:21,800 --> 01:20:26,039
least provide a basic explanation for an argument. I don't

1492
01:20:26,199 --> 01:20:29,479
believe that you find that argument compelling. I mean, if

1493
01:20:29,520 --> 01:20:31,960
you if you really have no idea how they got

1494
01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:35,760
this number, then you presenting it adds nothing to the conversation.

1495
01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:38,439
And so I would love it if somebody would would

1496
01:20:38,439 --> 01:20:42,359
call in and and examine that more closely. But like

1497
01:20:42,520 --> 01:20:44,880
many things in math, I'm a math teachers, so I

1498
01:20:44,920 --> 01:20:48,720
kind of see this stuff fairly frequently. If you say

1499
01:20:48,760 --> 01:20:51,560
something with math in it, people's brains will shut down,

1500
01:20:51,720 --> 01:20:53,960
and so they won't argue against what you're saying, and

1501
01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:56,720
they won't address what you're saying, and as is obvious

1502
01:20:56,760 --> 01:20:59,720
from this voicemail, they won't think about it before they

1503
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:04,239
re heat it. And so please please think about your arguments.

1504
01:21:04,319 --> 01:21:06,920
If you can't explain it, then I don't believe that

1505
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:09,920
it's compelling to you. So I just had to get

1506
01:21:09,920 --> 01:21:11,239
that out there. Otherwise I was not.

1507
01:21:11,159 --> 01:21:12,720
Speaker 3: Going to be able to sleep tonight. So thank you

1508
01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:14,640
for giving me that chance. Oh absolutely no.

1509
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:17,079
Speaker 1: I wanted to thank you for being our backup today.

1510
01:21:17,119 --> 01:21:19,000
We had a change in host the last minute, and

1511
01:21:20,319 --> 01:21:22,359
Jamie was able to step in, which was great, and

1512
01:21:22,399 --> 01:21:24,079
you were able to step in as a backup. It's

1513
01:21:24,079 --> 01:21:27,079
one of the many examples of the work that goes

1514
01:21:27,119 --> 01:21:30,840
on behind the scenes at the ACA. So please continue

1515
01:21:30,840 --> 01:21:33,800
to support us liking and subscribing. And if you are

1516
01:21:33,880 --> 01:21:36,880
going to be in the Austin area this weekend, please

1517
01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:39,439
please please get your tickets now before they sell out.

1518
01:21:39,960 --> 01:21:43,720
There's a dozen or so left, and come meet us.

1519
01:21:43,760 --> 01:21:46,239
I'll be there, Jamie will be there. Scott, I think.

1520
01:21:46,079 --> 01:21:47,760
Speaker 3: You're you're going to be there. I'll be there.

1521
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:48,960
Speaker 1: We'll all be there, along.

1522
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:50,800
Speaker 3: With your other favorite hosts. We'll all be there.

1523
01:21:51,239 --> 01:21:54,319
Speaker 1: Take in the scenes, go out and tell war stories.

1524
01:21:54,359 --> 01:21:58,640
So any last words there, Jamie. Before we wrap up

1525
01:21:58,640 --> 01:21:59,560
the show today.

1526
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:01,399
Speaker 2: We just want you to make an ass of you

1527
01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:02,079
and munction.

1528
01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:07,600
Speaker 1: I think that that should wrap it up. Thanks everybody

1529
01:22:07,640 --> 01:22:10,319
for watching. Sorry we had a few technical issues, but

1530
01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:13,520
next week we'll be back with more atheist experience.

1531
01:22:13,600 --> 01:22:14,359
Speaker 3: Have a great week.

1532
01:22:14,439 --> 01:22:20,000
Speaker 1: Bye bye. We start a.

1533
01:22:22,640 --> 01:22:41,039
Speaker 8: Stop around you watch Talking Than live Sundays at one

1534
01:22:41,079 --> 01:22:44,439
pm Central. Visit tiny dot c c slash y t

1535
01:22:44,439 --> 01:22:46,520
t E and call into the show at five one

1536
01:22:46,640 --> 01:22:49,600
two nine nine one nine two four two. Connect to

1537
01:22:49,640 --> 01:22:51,640
the show online at tiny dot c C.

1538
01:22:51,880 --> 01:22:52,439
Speaker 2: S Hald