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Speaker 1: Hi, This is Jeff Williams from Fernie, British Columbia, Canada,

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and I play at the Fernie Golf Club.

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Speaker 2: This is Golf Smarter number one thousand and one and golf.

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Speaker 3: You aim at a spot, but you play to an area.

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You have your aim line, a target that you want

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the ball to start on where you hope it ends up,

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so you have a clear picture of the whole trajectory

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and shape of the shot. The better picture you have,

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the better your body will respond to it. But it's

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best to do that within an area because we all

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have a dispersion pattern. You want to give yourself the

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most room to play and that takes outcome out of

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the situation. Give yourself the best chance for your fewest

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strokes without taking an unnecessary risk. And that's the game

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plan you have on every hole and every shot, regardless

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of your score. And this makes a huge difference to

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take worry about results out of the picture.

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Speaker 1: Every round has its own psychological Amen corner with doctor

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Joe Parrin of Zengolf, this is Golf Smarter, sharing stories,

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tips and insights from great golf minds to help you

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lower your score and raise your golf IQ.

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Speaker 3: Here's your host, Fred Green.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Golf Smarter Podcast. Doctor Joe. Hey, Fred,

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you know I had to take a long deep breath

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before I said that because episode.

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Speaker 2: One thousand and one.

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Speaker 1: Is your appearance, because you were episode one, so I

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thought it was the perfect time to have you come back.

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And it's not like you've only been on episode one

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in one thousand and one. I went through my database

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today and this is your eighteenth appearance.

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Speaker 2: How appropriate is that.

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Speaker 1: That it's your eighteenth appearance right on the final Green

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here finish, we've finished, and I hope not, I hope not.

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Speaker 3: The first day finished, the first day. We have three

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more rounds to go.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, four thousand episodes in twenty years, and

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see a thousand episodes in twenty years. They don't May

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may not be around for even for the fourth round.

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Absolutely not. But I really have loved having you on

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the show. I mean from the very beginning, the name

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Golf Smarter has meant how do we as amateur and

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recreational golfers, And to quote you in episode one, how

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do we get out of our own way?

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Speaker 2: And there are.

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Speaker 1: So many quotes that you've given me over the years

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that I continue to repeat on the golf course and

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people are like, how do you keep your mind straight

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with all the stuff that you have in your head?

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Speaker 2: I said, I can't. There's just after this many interviews.

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Speaker 3: Right, you pick and choose, and you write a couple

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of them down for the day.

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Speaker 1: Get out of your own way is way up on

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the list, including great putt.

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Speaker 2: You didn't make it, but you made the putt. It

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just didn't hole.

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Speaker 3: It, hold it. That's right. We change change the definition

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of making a putt. If you love the way it

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left the putter, you made your putt, yep, and then

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you see if it goes in or not. And even

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you know, I had a player who said, yeah, I

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missed that one, just slipped out. I said, see, the

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thing is, it's not a perfect surface, and the golf

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balls aren't perfectly manufactured to the add it to the

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atomic level. So when you roll, you could roll ten

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beautiful twelve foot putts and only seven would go in.

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There was a study done that rolling them down a ramp,

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so they rolled exactly the same each time, only seven

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out of ten minute And so if it was really

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really close, you say, you know, I wouldn't have put

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it at any That's just the rub of the green.

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That's why we have that phrase, the rub of the green. Now,

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if it didn't come close, then you have an opportunity

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to learn from it. But you can only learn from

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it if you felt like you rolled the putt that

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you wanted to, and if you rolled the putt that

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you wanted to, you made your putt, and then not

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all of them are going to go in, but you

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can make every put.

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Speaker 1: It shocks people when you tell them that you know

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on the tour from ten feet they're at fifty percent.

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Speaker 2: So don't beat yourself up.

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Speaker 3: And that's the thing do you want because because of

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that percentage, do you want your confidence based on whether

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it goes in or not? Or do you want your

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confidence based on your execution? And that needs to go

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through your whole game because after the ball leaves the

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club face, all you can do is root for it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so your confidence based on execution, not on the results.

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Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, I love that.

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Speaker 3: Again.

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Speaker 2: Taking notes.

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Speaker 1: I always take a lot of notes when our conversations.

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And in the another line that you've had over the

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years that I've just repeated again and again when especially

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when I see people getting frustrated and getting angry with themselves,

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it's like, remember.

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Speaker 2: The etche of sketch.

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Speaker 1: Just take your etche of sketch, flip it over, shake it,

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erase it, start again, start from zero.

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Speaker 3: You know. That's the that's the challenge with the the

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new generation. Etch you sketch was a toy that our

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generation had, Yeah, generations ago. So now it's just select

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all delete mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's command a command delete select.

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Speaker 2: Yep, a new way of doing it.

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Speaker 1: Well, your books have been an amazing success, and I'd

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like to go over each one if at all possible,

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we can do this today, but we have to start

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with Zen Golf. And I had read Zen Golf when

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I was new to the game. And when I thought

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about doing the podcast and asked a friend of mine

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who had already started podcasting back in two thousand and five,

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I said, how do I get started? He goes find

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somebody with a name, and so it was like, well,

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I just read this amazing book about golf.

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Speaker 2: I'll reach out.

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Speaker 1: And I reached out to doctor Joseph Parent And there

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you were saying sure, sure, but what you didn't say was,

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what's a podcast? And what's iTunes? Which I received that

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answer so many times in those first couple of years.

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Speaker 2: But you were game for it. You loved the idea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's why you've been on so many times.

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Speaker 3: Well, Zen Golf was written. Well, you know, somebody said,

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how long did it take to write Zen Golf? Well,

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it took the forty years of my work, but then

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sitting down and writing was a couple of years. And

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it got published in May ironically almost almost exactly twenty

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three years ago, two thousand and two, and it's it's

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gotten around the world. One of my favorite stories is

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when you took a group on into Japan and went

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to a remote monastery that you couldn't you couldn't actually

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use motorized transportation to get to. It was like like

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boats that had to be pushed along a river and Kyoto.

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Speaker 2: I was in Kyoto up to.

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Speaker 3: This monastery where the the zen master was talking about

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applying Zen to life, and he said, well, you guys

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do that, and this isn't there this book Zen Golf.

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Speaker 1: The Golf of Zen, he said, the Zen of golf

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is what he called it. And I'm like, wait a minute,

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that's one of my teachers he goes, what I say,

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you read that book?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that book.

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Speaker 3: Isn't that funny that it was? It's gotten to those

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remote corners of the world, so it's really it's really gratifying.

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I don't I don't want to toot my own horns.

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Speaker 2: I want you to it's toot.

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Speaker 3: You know. The key thing is I tried to make

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it very accessible when I when we were doing the editing,

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it was like, can I say that in a word

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with less syllables and and make it real lessons. There's

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no theory in it. It all comes out of lessons

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that I've taught. So I love it when somebody says,

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you know, I read Zen Golf, and I think you

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were hiding in the bushes watching me when you were

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getting ready to read. Because it has a lot of

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universals in it, and that's that's why it has it

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has lasted this long.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about the book.

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Speaker 1: Let's pretend like this is the first time we're doing this,

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and please introduce because you know, there's a lot of

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listeners who've been here for a long time and have

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heard you many times, and hopefully there's some new ones

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as well. But I think this is a really important

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book to introduce people to.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'll just present a couple of different It's in

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five sections, and the first section is taking a different perspective,

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and that's basically fakesed, you know, focusing on what's right

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with us rather than what's wrong with us. So with

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the intention of building unconditional confidence, not confidence based on

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how you've done recently, but based on your underlying abilities

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and underlying character. So that the focus is to say, Okay,

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it's not that I need something that I'm missing. There's

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I've added more on, so I need to clear it away.

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And as you said, your favorite expression is get out

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of your own way. And so lately what I've been

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telling and I love I love doing this. When I

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do a talk to a group of juniors, they really

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get a kick out of it. I said, well, you know,

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you feel like something's missing, so you add this technique on,

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and then you add this idea on, and then this

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swing thought on, and you keep adding more on and

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I call that more on golf want to you want

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to clear away the extra stuff, clear away the interference

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that and let yourself swing the way you're capable of.

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So that's the first section taking a different perspective, and

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the second section is actually the second, third and fourth

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sections are the power approach. So there's preparation action response

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to results. And preparation is making a plan that you

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can commit to and feeling a sense of trust so

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you can settle in and swing without worry. Then the

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action is actually doing that and being aware and going

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through your routine and focusing not so much on the

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outcome but on the process, as they say across the

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pond when we're working with a lot of European golfers.

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So the process, the process of preparing to hit the

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best shot you can possibly hit, and the focus there

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is love the way it leaves. After it leaves, all

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you can do is root for it. But if you

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do everything you can in your preshot routine and your

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practice swing, in your addressing the ball, and you're set

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up and commit to the plan that you made, trust

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the swing feel you have, and you're going and you're

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gonna hit your best shot and focus only on that.

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That's the action part. And one thing I wanted to

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mention on the preparation part is you take the challenges.

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I don't even want to call them hazards. You take

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the challenges of the shot into account and then give

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yourself the most room to play, because in golf, you

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aim at a spot, but you play to an area.

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So if you give yourself room to play, that allows

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you to commit to the shot without feeling like you

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have to help it or protect or prevent it from

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going somewhere. So you have a positive picture, a clear

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positive picture. You have a commitment to the plan you

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made and a plan you can commit to. And then

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you take a good, good settling bread and get yourself settered,

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settled and ready to act. So that's preparation, action and

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a response to results. This was what is it twenty

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three years ago, and still most people don't have a

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post shot routine. I introduced the post shot routine, and

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that is, after you hit the shot, don't leave that

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spot with a bad swing, erase and replace, make the

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swing you wish you'd made, and then use that feel

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as preparation for your next shot. Then, but if you

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hit a really good shot, don't just go, oh, thank you,

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I'll take any more of those. Give yourself some reinforcement

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and say that's how I always hit it, and then

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it brings it back to your preparation when I prepare

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for the shot really well and commit. So in Japanese

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that's called kai zen, which means the path of continuous improvement.

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So if you do these three things, the preparation, the action,

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and then the response to results, that makes your preparation

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better next time, you actually get better as you play.

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Speaker 2: But we're not done.

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Speaker 1: There's a third part we have to get to, and

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I want to go to it. There's so many things

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that you said in the last section that I need

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to go back to, but I want to continue on

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where we were with zen goolf okay.

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Speaker 3: So we have five different sections. The middle is the

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three parts of the par approach, and the fifth and

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last section is called a game of honor, and that's

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more about the spirit of golf. I introduce the principles

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of something called Shambala golf are my Buddhist teachers talked

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about an ideal society called Shambala, which is interesting. It's

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an ancient Asian legend and when the British came to Tibet,

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they heard about it, but they mispronounced it. Instead of Shambhlad,

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they called it shangri law. So it's an Eden an

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ideal society. And the principles that we talked about in

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relation to golf are virtue, discipline, humor, and friendship. And

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that is the essence of the game is good. It

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takes discipline to get the most out of your game.

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A sense of humor is essential given the vagaries of golf,

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and the key to engaging in the game is that

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we do it with others with a spirit of friendship

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and mutual support important. So we talk about that and

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talk about the attitude, and I introduced the attitude of

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some great professionals in the past and how they exemplify

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the best qualities that golf can bring out the best

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qualities of us as human beings. And on the flip side,

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it can bring out the frustrations and the negative emotions.

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So we have to make a choice as we play,

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which one we want to move towards the light or

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the dark?

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Speaker 2: Do I have to flip a coin on that one.

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Speaker 3: It's pretty easy.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty easy, and probably you've mentioned it many times.

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I know about focus on the process, not the results.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you're not.

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Speaker 1: You may be of the first one to tell me that,

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but it's been repeated by many mental.

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Speaker 2: Coaches that we featured on the show.

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Speaker 1: And again you may have said this before, but it's

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jumping out to me now, and that's you play to

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a spot, but.

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Speaker 2: You hit to an area.

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Speaker 3: You aim at a spot, aim at a spot, but

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you play to an area. Okay, good, You aim at

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a spot. So you have a you have and sometimes

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it's too You have your aim line, a target that

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you want the ball to start on and if you're

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going to shape it at all, where you where you

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hope it ends up. So you have a clear picture

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of the whole trajectory and shape of the shot. The

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better picture you have, the better your body will respond

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to it. But you have to do that. It's best

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to do that within an area because we all have

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a dispersion pattern. Even the robots that they use to

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test golf balls and golf clubs on the ball doesn't

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land in exactly the same spot. It's an area. It's

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a very small area compared to our amateur area, but

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it is an area. So you want to give yourself

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the most room to play. And that fits with the

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game plan that I have introduced that takes outcome out

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of the situation, and that is give yourself the best

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chance for your fewest strokes on the whole without taking

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an unnecessary risk. Usually we talk about that as birdie.

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For amateurs, it's net birdie. Give yourself the best chance

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for net birdie without taking an unnecessary risk. And that's

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the game plan you have on every hole and every shot,

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regardless of your score. And this makes a huge difference

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to take worry about results as far as score goes

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out of the picture. If you watch golf tournaments, as

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the players are coming down the back nine, if they

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have a lead, they start worrying about giving any back

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and it changes their game plan from how do I

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play my best shots to how do I not make

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a mistake, and that inevitably leads to stumbles.

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Speaker 1: I want to go back for a moment to the

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twenty twenty five Masters and Rory's phenomenal final round that

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had a lot of ups and downs in the round.

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Speaker 2: Did you get a chance to watch.

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Speaker 3: Any of it? Yeah? And you know Amen corner at

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the Masters is eleven, twelve, and thirteen. And what I

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say every closing round has a psychological Amen corner is

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right at that point in the round, you're running out

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of holes. You can see the finish line, but it's

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a little early for the adrenaline to kick in for

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your final kick. And so it's a place where Rory

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in the twenty twenty five Masters had just buried number ten,

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had a four shot lead, and you could tell his

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thinking started going to how do I bring it home

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rather than how do I keep playing well? And he

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had striped little baby draws huge, not little huge baby huge,

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little draw with a little draw on it down the fairway,

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shot after shot after shot on number eleven, a very

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tentative push into the trees. And we don't know what

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was going on with that little wed shot on thirteen

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that he jumped in the creek, but clearly it was

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a lack of focus and a lack of positive intention,

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and that brings in deceleration, it brings in guiding, and

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it brings in poor results. So all of that happens

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during that section of a final round for almost everybody.

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And it's also you're tired. If you're running out of

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mental gas, you're physically tired. If you haven't eaten or

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drunk properly, you're dehydrated or your blood sugar is off. Now,

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the pros are pretty good about eating and drinking. So

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it's really more the physical and even more so the

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mental fatigue of being in those pressure situations. And then

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you have excuse expression, brain farts, which is basically what

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it looked like. Happened on a couple of the wedge

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on thirteen and the wedge on eighteen. So it's like,

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where did that come from? Well, it came from loss

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of focus and positive intention and commitment to the shot.

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Speaker 1: I was fascinated in a lot of the post round interviews.

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He kept talking about how proud he was of himself

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to get through.

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Speaker 3: He came back from that. He came back from that, yep.

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And he did that after the first round. He came

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back from that adversity, and he talked about his resilience

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and that is well, we.

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Speaker 2: Kept talking about I was having a great round.

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Speaker 1: I had two bad holes, but I have focus on

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how well I was playing before.

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Speaker 3: That, yep. So that's why we have all these aspects

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of zen golf as taking a different perspective, not focusing

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on the bad shots, but focusing on what you do

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well and then going through your process and then maintaining

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that positive attitude about yourself that you can accomplish what

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you're trying to accomplish.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Joe, I am so curious as to.

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Speaker 1: What brought you to call the book, or you know,

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what is your history that led you to write a

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book book that you would call Zen golf, which is

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not a term that most golfers before this book would

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have ever used. And it's fascinating that you got to

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that point.

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Speaker 2: What brought you there?

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Speaker 3: Well, what I wanted to do was to bring some

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of the teachings that I had experienced to make it

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a blend of Eastern and Western psychology, the Eastern wisdom traditions,

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Buddhism and Taoism. Zen, which is a kind of one

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of the schools of Buddhism, are actually, in their original form,

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more of a psychology than a religion. You could say.

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It's a kind of spiritual psychology, which is understanding the

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mind and understanding how we again, how we get in

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our own way, and techniques for getting out of our

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own way. So that's really my background, as well as

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my study and my degree in Western psychology. So I

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was able to blend those together, and so I included

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a lot of the traditional Zen stories, which are very

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illustrative of how we get in our own way, and

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how we can get out of our own way. You know.

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One of the one of the stories is a musician

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went to a great master and said, you know, how

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should I what's the way that I should work with

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playing my instrument and tune it just right? And he said, well, oh,

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he said, he was asking how do I work with

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my mind? And the teacher said, well, how do you

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work with your instrument? See, we want to use real

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life examples to help us understand how we work with

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our mind. He said, how do you tune the strings

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of your instrument? He said, well, I make sure that

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they're not too tight and not too That's how you

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should work with your mind, not too tight, not too loose.

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So we take that into our golf practice and we say, okay,

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you need to be somewhat focused, but not hyper focused

399
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and uptight and not too whatever and not too relaxed

400
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and lose and lose your focus. So one of the

401
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things that I've been teaching lately is where your energy is.

402
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Whenever somebody says, you know, I'm kind of in my

403
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head and all my thoughts, and they use their hands

404
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up here, you know, around their head and what I

405
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want people to do is use their breathing. When we

406
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breathe in, we gather. When we breathe out, we let go.

407
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Literally we're gathering our breath in and then letting it

408
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go out. So they activate different It's of our nervous system,

409
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and the part of the nervous system that the outbreath

410
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activates lets us relax and settle. So we use the

411
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outbreath as a way to settle down. And so I

412
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asked people, you know, have you ever heard the expression

413
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down tight? I see, no, I said, it doesn't exist.

414
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We're only uptight. We only get work up about things.

415
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We only tense up. We don't tense down. And I

416
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promise on the other on the other hand, no one

417
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has ever calmed up, take a breath and calm the

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right down.

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Speaker 2: Did you need a beep on that one?

420
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Speaker 3: Did?

421
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Speaker 2: I can give you and give you. I can do that. No,

422
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I don't have to do that.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that's good.

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Speaker 2: That's good. That's good.

425
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Speaker 1: There is a great documentaries on right now called Soltic

426
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,759
City about the history of the Boston Celtics, and at

427
00:27:03,799 --> 00:27:06,839
one point during it they talk about how.

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Speaker 2: Great basketball when all the.

429
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Speaker 1: Parts are working together and we're talking about the teammates

430
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and whatnot.

431
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Speaker 2: Is jazz is just like jazz because you have.

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Speaker 1: Everyone who is highly skilled at what they're doing, and

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yet they can go free form with it and stay

434
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within their themselves.

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Speaker 3: Right, the key word is improvisation. Improvisation, that's the key word.

436
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You have a plan, but then you encounter the situation

437
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,920
and then you have to improvise. What did what did

438
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Mike Tyson say? He said, you have a plan for

439
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,519
your boxing round until you didn't get hit in the face.

440
00:27:51,759 --> 00:27:55,640
That's right. And the military says, all our battle plans

441
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,319
are perfect until we encounter the enemy. Yeah, so at

442
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that point you have to improvise. But to improvise means

443
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to rely on your skills. And the cool thing of

444
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applying this to the golf course is think about how

445
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we practice on the range. We give ourselves perfect lives

446
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,000
each time, and it's perfectly flat, and then we hit

447
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shots and we get out on the golf course. Oh

448
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,880
suddenly one foot's in the bunker and one foot out,

449
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or the balls below our feet above our feet. If

450
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I were to design a practice range, I would put

451
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mounds of different sizes along in different places on the

452
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round on the range so that you could practice. You

453
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,000
get on the mound and you drop it on the backside,

454
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the front side, left right, and you've got all those

455
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,839
kinds of four shots. But when we get on the

456
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golf course, we have to improvise, and that means trusting

457
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the skills that we have and also being realistic about

458
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the skills that we have and not trying shots that

459
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we have no business, no business. Now, why do amateurs

460
00:29:02,119 --> 00:29:03,599
try those crazy shots?

461
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Speaker 2: They've seen them on TV.

462
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Speaker 3: No, that's not why. Okay, the reason is because of

463
00:29:09,359 --> 00:29:14,160
the nineteenth hole. When you come in and you're not

464
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,440
going to say, oh, man, I shot this beautiful ninety two.

465
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It was really really, oh what a great round, you're

466
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,759
going to say, you know, on the fifth hole, I

467
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,720
was behind this tree and I cut it around the

468
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,079
tree and ran it up between the bunkers and got

469
00:29:31,079 --> 00:29:32,960
it to four feet. Don't ask me about the putt,

470
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,319
but you know, so we need a hero shot to

471
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,480
talk about it in the bar after after the round.

472
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And that's why amateurs try those crazy shots, just so

473
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,640
they have they can say I pulled that one off

474
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because they're not hitting such great shots all the way,

475
00:29:51,319 --> 00:29:55,519
all the way around, but I'd like people to shift

476
00:29:55,559 --> 00:29:59,599
their focus and love the way it leaves the club face,

477
00:30:00,319 --> 00:30:02,759
and then you're going to remember lots and lots of

478
00:30:03,359 --> 00:30:07,839
shots that felt really good, and it will inspire you

479
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,759
to do a better job of preparation, because that's your goal,

480
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,240
to want to have that feel of how the shot

481
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:22,279
takes off. So, you know, the the most important thing

482
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,720
after Zen Golf was all the other books that I

483
00:30:25,759 --> 00:30:31,519
wrote were offshoots of that, Zen Putting and Golf Golf

484
00:30:31,559 --> 00:30:33,599
The Art of the Mental Game. I was introduced to

485
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,640
someone who owned the rights to these beautiful Ravelli drawings,

486
00:30:39,599 --> 00:30:45,640
so I developed very short, one page golf tips that

487
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,640
kind of matched up with with the drawings, and so

488
00:30:49,799 --> 00:30:52,599
that's that's where that that book came out of. And

489
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,880
then How to Make Every put was my last golf book,

490
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,920
and it was really a revision of Zen Putting. Zen

491
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,920
Putting had a lot of philosophy in it as well,

492
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,559
and how to Make Every Putt is really the practical.

493
00:31:06,759 --> 00:31:10,440
It's funny. Zen Golf had one chapter, Zen Golf had

494
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,400
one chapter, how to Make Every put Zen Putting had

495
00:31:13,759 --> 00:31:17,319
a section called how to Make Every put And then

496
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,559
the whole book is called how to make every put

497
00:31:19,799 --> 00:31:23,359
on the on the last one. And then I was

498
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:28,839
invited to do a few other books beyond Golf, Zen

499
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,000
Tennis with my dear friend Bill Scanlon, who has said

500
00:31:32,279 --> 00:31:39,400
has passed away. And I was asked to by by

501
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:47,039
friends and my teacher to write the diet book because

502
00:31:47,079 --> 00:31:50,960
it's using the same kinds of principles to change habits.

503
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,720
There are no menus in my diet book. It's all

504
00:31:53,799 --> 00:31:56,559
ways of changing your attitude and changing your habits, and

505
00:31:56,599 --> 00:32:02,680
that's been successful. You asked me about the title. I

506
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,319
picked a funny title for that one because I picked

507
00:32:05,319 --> 00:32:09,440
it based on search engines. When people search for a book.

508
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,519
There are so many diet books out there. What are

509
00:32:12,559 --> 00:32:15,799
you going to search for the best diet book? So

510
00:32:15,839 --> 00:32:21,039
I called it the best diet book ever. But the

511
00:32:21,079 --> 00:32:23,200
subtitle is The Zen of Losing Weight. We kept the

512
00:32:23,279 --> 00:32:27,000
Zen theme. And the last book that I wrote was

513
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,759
is kind of my favorite as a excuse me expression,

514
00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:36,880
Bookend to Zen Golf, and that's actually for families and

515
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,240
it's not about golf. My sister, who worked for Disney

516
00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:45,039
for a long time. One of the Disney editors asked

517
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,400
her to ask me to work on a book on

518
00:32:49,839 --> 00:32:56,640
mindfulness and kindness and compassion, love, gratitude, courage, all these

519
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:03,880
positive family values using Winnie the Pooh and Friends. So

520
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,359
it's called A Walk in the Wood Meditations on Mindfulness

521
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,759
with a bar named Pooh. We wrote sixteen individual stories

522
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,440
that goes through a day in the life of Winnie

523
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,720
the Pooh and his friends, and then after each story,

524
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:26,839
I wrote meditation instructions, sometimes outdoor meditations on nature, sometimes

525
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:34,480
contemplations on relationships with others, as I said, love and gratitude,

526
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,319
sometimes on reflections on life of impermanence and interdependence. So

527
00:33:41,279 --> 00:33:44,880
it's a book for all ages. Somebody said, what's the

528
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,119
age range, and I said four to one hundred and four,

529
00:33:49,279 --> 00:33:55,039
And it's that people can read it with youngsters, with

530
00:33:55,160 --> 00:34:00,480
young people and then use the instruction sections to give

531
00:34:00,559 --> 00:34:06,319
age appropriate introductions to mindfulness, awareness, and the values of

532
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,920
kindness and compassion, love and gratitude.

533
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: Well, I guess you didn't figure out that you were

534
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,960
going to be a successful author when you started with

535
00:34:23,119 --> 00:34:27,280
zen Golf, when you were starting your psychology practice, that

536
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,119
your life would have taken you to be a really

537
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,039
accomplished published author.

538
00:34:33,599 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 3: Congratulations, thank you, and actually my idea for a golf book.

539
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,920
At the beginning, I was writing two page articles for

540
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,800
golf magazines, and I said, you know, when I get

541
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,239
enough of them, I'll pop them together into a book

542
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:56,719
because I already knew books with long chapters people never

543
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:58,639
make it through. You look and say how long is

544
00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:01,519
this chapter? They go fifteen. I don't have time for that,

545
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,079
but they have time to if they see, oh, two

546
00:35:05,079 --> 00:35:07,239
and a half pages. Oh, I can do that, and

547
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,239
they'll read fifteen pages, but two and a half at

548
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,079
a time. Yeah, bite size. So I had already planned

549
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,960
and zen Golf is a two hundred page book with

550
00:35:16,119 --> 00:35:21,119
seventy chapters and a half pages each, you know. So

551
00:35:21,119 --> 00:35:25,039
so so that was that was the intention. But again

552
00:35:25,079 --> 00:35:28,840
through my sister, I was introduced to an opportunity to

553
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,199
publish the book and was able to make it happen

554
00:35:32,199 --> 00:35:35,159
a little faster than two page articles. All the way through.

555
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,079
Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to have to get that book and

556
00:35:37,079 --> 00:35:38,039
put it my library.

557
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 3: We started over. I was just holding up that's the

558
00:35:42,039 --> 00:35:45,119
Walk in the Wood book, and I'm so proud of it,

559
00:35:45,159 --> 00:35:47,039
and it was so much fun to work on it

560
00:35:48,159 --> 00:35:56,360
with my sister. Yeah, and so that's kind of the

561
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,400
my my little baby a little bit.

562
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,159
Speaker 1: What I'd like to do if we can, is get

563
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,559
more examples of how on the golf course, not in life,

564
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,239
but we'll connect those dots when we get there. But

565
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,039
on the golf how we get in our own way,

566
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:22,719
whether it's bad bounces, beating ourselves up on things that

567
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,800
we have no control. And I'm going to stop here

568
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:26,960
because I want you to do it. But how do

569
00:36:27,079 --> 00:36:29,840
we get in our own way? And how do we

570
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:30,360
correct that?

571
00:36:30,639 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 3: Well, you said, you know, we're talking about golf, not life.

572
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:34,920
But there's an old saying. I think it was Dave Hill,

573
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,199
one of the old protess, said, golf and life are

574
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:43,320
a lot alike. It's just that golf's a little more complicated. WHOA, So,

575
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,400
of course it's I was telling I was telling you

576
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,880
another time and another time that I had a student

577
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,320
who got very angry, a junior on got very angry

578
00:36:53,519 --> 00:36:59,639
at bad bounces and like he'd hit a shot right

579
00:36:59,679 --> 00:37:02,239
at the and it would hit a sprinkler head in

580
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,360
front of the green and bounce over and out of bounds,

581
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,440
and he was furious, And I said, why are you

582
00:37:07,519 --> 00:37:10,199
so angry? He said, well, it was not fair. And

583
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,519
I said, Oh, so if you hit it into the

584
00:37:12,519 --> 00:37:14,519
woods and it hits a tree and bounces back into

585
00:37:14,519 --> 00:37:17,840
the fairway, you get angry at that too. Huh he said, No,

586
00:37:18,159 --> 00:37:23,719
I said, but that isn't fair. He went, oh, oh, so,

587
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,039
it's just it's all about getting the results we want

588
00:37:28,639 --> 00:37:32,280
and being attached to those results so that when they

589
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:36,440
don't come out, we feel like, why did you know?

590
00:37:36,599 --> 00:37:39,079
Why did this happen to Muah? Why did this happen

591
00:37:39,079 --> 00:37:42,400
to me? And we apply that to life as well

592
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,280
as golf. Why did that happen to me? Now we

593
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,679
can talk about karma, but that's a whole deeper topic.

594
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,400
But basically, if we say, okay, that is what happened

595
00:37:56,039 --> 00:38:00,239
and what can I learn from it? Rather than why

596
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,039
did that happen to me? And or what's wrong with

597
00:38:03,119 --> 00:38:07,320
me that that happened and beat ourselves up, as you said,

598
00:38:08,079 --> 00:38:12,119
instead saying okay, what can I learn from this? And

599
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,400
then we have the possibility of improving so getting in

600
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,360
our own way. There are many ways that we do that,

601
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:25,239
and they all have to do with outcome, with how

602
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,639
they're going to turn out, and attachment to the way

603
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:35,519
we want them to turn out. FORMI for me, I

604
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:40,559
want things to turn out for me. And if we

605
00:38:40,599 --> 00:38:43,559
can get out of ourselves and say, you know, I

606
00:38:43,599 --> 00:38:46,719
want things to turn out better for others, that actually

607
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,440
is helpful because then we're not in our own way.

608
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,599
As a golf instructor, I got to tell you, I

609
00:38:53,679 --> 00:38:57,920
hit my best shots when i'm demonstrating when I'm not

610
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,840
doing it for me, but I'm doing it for others. Wow,

611
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:03,960
that's when I hit my best shots. And I've talked

612
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,639
to a number of other instructors and all it's all

613
00:39:06,679 --> 00:39:11,239
the same because we're out of the self centered orientation

614
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,159
and just doing it for others to show others. So

615
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,800
that's one of the things. When we're getting up over

616
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:26,679
a shot, we get in our own way, creating interference

617
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,480
with swinging the way we are capable of because of

618
00:39:30,559 --> 00:39:33,360
worry about results. Christy I worked with Christy Kerr and

619
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,360
helped her get to number one in the world. She

620
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:40,920
had a great acronym worry about results. The acronym is war. War.

621
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,559
When I worry about results, I'm at war with myself. Wow.

622
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,639
So when you're at war with yourself and you don't trust,

623
00:39:49,559 --> 00:39:52,360
then as you get over the shot, you say I

624
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,840
wanted to draw, I think I better help it draw,

625
00:39:55,599 --> 00:39:57,840
or wanted to fade, I better help it. I wanted

626
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,480
to go far, I better help it go far. Those

627
00:40:01,519 --> 00:40:06,519
are not so useful, to say the least. Or we

628
00:40:06,679 --> 00:40:10,000
haven't targeted properly, and we say I got to stay

629
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,079
away from that out of bounds on the left, or

630
00:40:12,079 --> 00:40:14,199
I've got to stay away from that pond on the right,

631
00:40:14,599 --> 00:40:18,920
and then we hit an avoiding or preventing swing, sometimes

632
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,679
combine them. I need to stay away from the pond

633
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:23,719
on the right, so I really need this to draw.

634
00:40:24,079 --> 00:40:26,840
And then we do double duty and hit it out

635
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,679
of bounds on the left. I usually say, really good

636
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,079
job avoiding the pond on the right, not so good

637
00:40:33,119 --> 00:40:35,800
hitting the fairway, but really good job of avoiding what

638
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,719
you were trying to avoid. And then the last one

639
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:45,400
third part combination and that is not so untrusting that

640
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,960
we get guidy and just try to steer it where

641
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,800
we want it to go, which is a combination of

642
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:58,760
trusting and not trusting, of helping and avoiding together. So

643
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,760
none of these are helpful. The key is again, pick

644
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,920
a plan that you can commit to, a feel swing

645
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,920
that you can trust, and then do your best to

646
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,360
love the way it leaves the club face, whether it's

647
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,079
a putter, an iron, or a driver.

648
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 1: Wow, that sounds like a perfect close for the show,

649
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:23,159
but it's not because I have one.

650
00:41:24,519 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 2: I want to keep going.

651
00:41:25,639 --> 00:41:29,119
Speaker 1: I played with someone recently and at his golf club,

652
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,400
and with every hole, because it's the club that he

653
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:34,039
belongs to.

654
00:41:34,039 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 2: With every hole, he gave me.

655
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: Over and I felt he was over instructing, with all

656
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,880
the hazards and all the difficulties and all the problems,

657
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,519
and I'm like, where am I going to put it?

658
00:41:49,199 --> 00:41:52,199
I don't want to know where. I don't want to go. Please,

659
00:41:52,519 --> 00:41:55,559
I want to know what's my target? What you know,

660
00:41:55,639 --> 00:41:57,679
what's the distance? So I know a club I'm bringing?

661
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,199
Can I take driver here? And I just like my

662
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,280
head was kind of exploding and I couldn't say anything,

663
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,119
but he went on. It was like TMI, man, it

664
00:42:08,199 --> 00:42:09,480
was just too much information.

665
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, you have to be the communication is delicate in

666
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:21,480
those situations. Yeah. So at a certain point, after he's

667
00:42:21,519 --> 00:42:24,039
gone through all of those things, you say, Okay, given

668
00:42:24,159 --> 00:42:29,679
all of those challenges, what's the safest line for me

669
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:30,119
to take?

670
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 2: Right?

671
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 3: And then he'll give you the positive. Well, you want

672
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,400
to aim at that bush right over there. Now, do

673
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:38,840
I want to start it at that? Or is that

674
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,519
where I wanted to come down? Oh? Okay, well yeah,

675
00:42:43,559 --> 00:42:45,480
I think you want to come down on that. Oh

676
00:42:45,639 --> 00:42:47,239
thank you. Well, I'm going to play a draw of there.

677
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:48,719
So I'm going to start a little bit right of that.

678
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: And then we bring it back to aim to a spot,

679
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,639
play to an area there you go. Right, So you

680
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,920
alluded to the fact that we know that you're, you know,

681
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:06,840
a PhD doctor, but you're also a golf instructor, right

682
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,079
if you had training with that or you just work

683
00:43:09,119 --> 00:43:11,599
with golfers, you.

684
00:43:11,519 --> 00:43:14,679
Speaker 3: Know, people say, are you a golf instructor? Well, I'm

685
00:43:14,679 --> 00:43:17,880
a golf instructor, but I'm not a swing instructor. Uh huh.

686
00:43:18,159 --> 00:43:23,719
I don't teach swing technique. Now, I know enough from

687
00:43:24,039 --> 00:43:27,800
working with players. For example, I had a pro that

688
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:32,119
I was working with. This is just by you know,

689
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,440
by video. I didn't see him hit the shot, but

690
00:43:36,519 --> 00:43:41,599
he was describing a shot of a like a wedge

691
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:47,280
into a left pin position and it overdrew and went

692
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,800
into the bunker on the side of the pin. He

693
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,599
said it was just a bad shot, And I said,

694
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,199
was it just a bad shot? What were you trying

695
00:43:55,199 --> 00:43:56,760
to do. Was it a full swing shot? He said no,

696
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,400
he was trying to take a little bit off of it. Aha. Okay,

697
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,320
So the pros when they take a little bit off

698
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:09,320
of it often pull it to the left because they're

699
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,760
so used to using their body in the swing and

700
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,400
their body and their arms together. Taking a little bit

701
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,679
off of it, they don't make as big a movement

702
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,679
with their body. Their arms keep going at full speed.

703
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,519
Off it goes to for right handers, off it goes

704
00:44:23,559 --> 00:44:26,880
to the left. So what I said was you need

705
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,639
to give the new plan time to sink in. I

706
00:44:29,639 --> 00:44:31,800
have a chapter in zen Golf called give it time

707
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,559
to sink in. I want you to make four or

708
00:44:34,639 --> 00:44:40,079
five practice swings getting your body and your arms in sync,

709
00:44:41,159 --> 00:44:47,400
rather than just one or two. Because up your brain

710
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,360
is still going to tell your arms to swing at

711
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,199
full speed, but it's going to tell your body to

712
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,079
slow down, and you don't want those two crossing. So

713
00:44:55,119 --> 00:44:59,079
there's an example that you would talk about it as

714
00:44:59,119 --> 00:45:02,519
a swing instruction, but it's really a mental thing about

715
00:45:02,519 --> 00:45:06,920
how the brain runs the muscles, you know. That's what

716
00:45:07,039 --> 00:45:10,119
the mental game is about. It's not just mental, it's

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how your mind and your body work together, or don't.

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00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,519
Speaker 1: Doctor Joe, it is such an honor to be a

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friend of yours and have you agree to it. Come

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00:45:22,079 --> 00:45:24,039
on to our show and be able to start the

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next thousand with you as we started the whole process.

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00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,199
I truly appreciate it and I can't thank you enough.

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Speaker 3: Always fun to talk with you, Fred,