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Speaker 6: Good morning everybody, and welcome to this week's episode of
the Paranormal Spectrum here on the Untold Radio Network. I
am your host, Barnaby Jones from Cryptids, Anomalies and the
Paranormal Society. Ladies and gentlemen, Today's show is pre recorded,
so we are not live in studio if you're watching
this at our regularly scheduled time, and that's why we're
not replying to your questions or comments. So with that
being said, guys, if you want to meet my team
in person, we are going to be at Contact Modalities
Expo May first through the third in Delavan, Wisconsin. Myself
and fellow Untold Radio host Dean Bertram will be in attendance,
as well as my guest today, Jack Chavez, is going
to be at this event speaking as well as some
of my former guests, Jaybachochin and Zach Screedy, Trey Hudson,
and so many more names. We're not going to go
through mall, but amazing lineup of people going to be
at this event. Then, guys, the following weekends, Saturday May ninth,
we are going to be in Fondilac, Wisconsin for the Cryptids,
Anomalies and Paranormal Convention with over twenty speakers and workshops
for your entertainment and education, as well as over forty
vendors for your shopping and entertainment entertainment.
Speaker 3: There you go.
Speaker 6: We kick off Friday afternoon with a kids Bigfoot expedition
led by myself, Chris McCreery and Lauren Smith. Unfortunately Kelly
cannot make it, she had to back out of this event.
And then for the more adventurous Friday evening, May eighth,
we head out with Lauren, Chris and myself will be
joined by Jay Bachocin, Ken Gerhard, Larry Eisler, and Christina Bloom.
So if you want to join these expeditions, tickets are
still available. Then guys, we head down to the Paranormal
Chicago Invention Saturday June thirteenth in Countryside, Illinois, and my
guest today runs this event, so we'll talk more about
that in just a bit. Then, guys, we head to
the Brownsville Library June seventeenth, the Cedarberg Library July twenty second,
Potographs Packerland Paranormal Conference that is a tongue flister. There
you go. September twenty sixth in Green Bay, Wisconsin, the
Ryo Community Library October twenty eighth, and of course the
Belleville Public Library just before Halloween on Friday, October thirtieth.
There we go, guys. So with that being said, we
have an awesome guest joining us again here this year
to talk all about the Chicago Paranormal Convention and the
Men in Black. My guest today is Jack Javes. He
is a multi faceted author, paranormal investigator, and dedicated seeker
of the unexplained who serves as a prominent voice in
the Midwest haunting scene. As the host of the Paranormal
Chicago Convention and the podcast Channeling Javes, he brings a
deep seated curiosity to everything from local legends like Resurrection
Mary and the Lincoln Park ghost stories to the chilling
Great Lakes Mothman phenomenon. Beyond his work as a tour
guide and frequent convention speaker, Jack's research extends into the
unsettling world of cryptids like the Rake, the pale Crawlers,
and all things pertaining to a profound interest in the
diverse religious practices and spiritual traditions of around the world.
Whether he is guesting on a popular podcast or investigating
regional lore. His work is defined by a tireless drive
to bridge the gap between historical mysteries and modern high strangeness.
Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the show, Jack Javez, Hey Jack,
that's going.
Speaker 3: Hey, Barnie we Man. That was the longest introduction experienced
on a podcast.
Speaker 6: You know, if you'd send me your own I wouldn't
have to write it and make you sound better than
you are.
Speaker 3: So there you go. Look at it. Your poor audience,
it's like ten minutes in had to deal with all
of that.
Speaker 6: Do you do you know why we do that?
Speaker 3: Tell me?
Speaker 6: Because the show goes live. I mean today is we're prerecorded,
but on the live shows because people get notifications that
the show is going live, so we stall in the
beginning so the audience catches up and doesn't miss anything.
Speaker 3: You want want to be a stand corrected. I was
wrong and you were right.
Speaker 6: I know this is marketing. You gotta And then we
have people have mentioned that that the show intro is
very long and stuff, and that is the reason why
is because when the notification goes Untold Radio Network is
live and you tune in and you've missed the whole
introduction of who they're talking to and what they're talking about.
That's why we do it.
Speaker 3: All the comments that you get about that, that's all.
Speaker 6: Mean, they're all anonymous, But I know who anonymous is.
Speaker 3: You got me, man, You know that that bile of myself. Man,
that was great. Actually, that was that was actually one
of the best that I've ever heard.
Speaker 6: You're welcome.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't deserve it.
Speaker 6: He's for you man after the show as well. Actually, yeah,
I want to use that. Well for those of you
who don't know Jack Chavas, I mean, you've been on
my show multiple times every year. Here we have you
back on to promote your event, and you do. I
gotta say, you do an amazing job with your event.
There's not many events with free parking in the Chicago
Land area. On my last show here we talked about,
you know, come for the free parking, stay for the event.
You know, you have an awesome event coming up here. Again,
what is this a fifty year.
Speaker 3: Man, I don't know it's about about that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you were running two a year at the beginning,
but now they're just one a year, so I think
he was actually, oh wow, wow, Yeah, that's a lot.
So Chicago Paranormal grew up. I always say Chicago Paranormal
and i've i've I've learned that it's not it's the
paranormal Chicago correct.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because uh, Chicago Paranormal was copyrighted, so I got
to use.
Speaker 6: See the more you know the Paranormal Chicago Convention Saturday,
June thirteenth, Countryside Banquet and Convention Center in Countryside, Illinois.
You got a great lineup of speakers again and vendors
tell us all about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we we have a we do have a great lineup.
One of our speakers is Miguel Connor. He wrote the
book Elvis and the Elvis and the Occult, and it's
about just that it's Elvis press these connections to the
occults and if you are thinking this connections, yeah, there's
actually a lot of connections. And he writes all about him.
Miguel was a great guy. I met him, oh gosh,
maybe about two years ago. He was doing a lecture
on his book, and then him and I really hit
it off after his lecture, and we've since become friends.
And now he's going to be a speaker talking about
his book. He hosts a radio show called aon Bright
that's A on A E O N. And it's about
gnosis or nacissism, which is a kind of a pre
Christian tradition that segued into Christianity. It's like a Christian mysticism,
some would call it. But yeah, So we're going to
have Miguel with them re quote, and then after that
we're going to have Eric Nansteele. Eric wrote a book
called The Blood Covenant, and Eric is an alien abductee
and so the book explores his speculation and what the
extraterrestrial agenda is without giving too much away, but it
has to do with blood and covenants. And he also
has another book where he actually talks about his abduction
experience called Angst in the Shadows, a true Story of
Alien abductions. So both books I read fantastic books. And
then I also have a doctor Joel Ramsey.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 3: Doctor Ramsey is a psychologist parapsychologists, and he's going to
be talking to us about the world of parapsychology and
how science approaches paranormal phenomena. And then I have Kate Hilger.
Kate is a holistic educator and holistic practitioner. So she
does sound healing or vocal healing and past life trauma.
So she's gonna be talking to us about her experiences
and yeah, oh and then one more.
Speaker 6: And then my last Yeah, just one more there. Yeah,
but certainly not least one of.
Speaker 3: Our best speakers is going to have mister Barnaby Jones.
That's you, sir.
Speaker 6: This is the first time he's left me off things,
so you know, yeah, and.
Speaker 3: You're gonna be talking about Bigfoot, yes, And I want
to tell the audiences. Sure, there are a lot of
Bigfoot presentations out there, and there's a lot of videos
that you could find on YouTube, but my understanding is
that you really are going to go more a little
bit more in depth than what you would get on
your average presentation on big Foot.
Speaker 6: Right, That's that's my goal. Each year I Jack has
requested a brand new presentation of me, and this year
will be the first time talking about Bigfoot a deeper look,
and it's going to go into more of you know,
why we don't have bodies, where are the photographic evidence,
why people don't come forward? You know, more of the
scientific backing of it, and you know, a deeper look
into the whole phenomenon instead of just like, oh well
there was a sighting.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I'm looking forward to that because you know,
it's those are questions that I think the average person has,
but like it's never really addressed by the researchers. So
that should be really interesting.
Speaker 6: It'll be a good presentation, brand new for anybody that
has seen me before. This is a brand new presentation.
There you go, Jack tell us how people can get tickets,
where it's going to be, and any other vendor information
as well well.
Speaker 3: So it's only a one dollar entrance fee, so you
don't get tickets online. It's just at the door. It's
literally just one dollar. I mean, you can't beat it.
It'll be just as it says right there, Saturday, June
thirteenth at the Countryside Banquet and Conference Center. And it's
a large black union building. And so what you do
is you drive around the back and around the back
of the building is the entrance to the building. And yeah,
it's a I'm going to have ninety vendors there, approximately,
I should say approximately ninety vendors there. There's gonna be
how many presentations Barnaby five? I thank you, yeah, five?
Presentations and there would be food there, there would be snacks,
and yeah, it's gonna be a good time. It always is.
Speaker 6: It definitely is. And I can vouch for Jack that
when when he says about ninety vendors there's I mean,
it's the entire place. It's a huge conference at like
a big gymnasium, huge and it is full. Every every
vendor spaces is full there. So unless someone you know
can't make it and doesn't show up, but otherwise it's
it's packed. So definitely definite worth dollar and the trip
to come. So yeah, awesome, Jack, Awesome. Well, I will
look forward to it. Always a good time, always fun
hanging out and torturing you in person.
Speaker 3: So you know, sometimes I get nightmares, like if you
were to tell me actually yeah, I like like like
if you were to not show up, I'm sick. I
don't know what I would do.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 3: Well, I should say actually the audience is probably wondering
why I say that, because Barnaby has really been instrumental
in helping out at the convention, Like he's you know,
the what do you call it it guy?
Speaker 6: The av audio Radio.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Barnaby has helped out with a V. I mean,
you know, I'll find somebody else. I'll be fine, but
you know he does help out a lot.
Speaker 6: Hey, the first year that you were at this place,
you couldn't even get the guy that you paid to
be there to do. Is just I mean, you're really
lucky I showed up that year because you know, I
basically ran your presentation stage and I've kind of done
it ever since, so it's just kind of I walked
into the role. Now I'm stuck with it.
Speaker 3: So this is true. I actually paid somebody to be there,
and it was one of the staff members of the venue,
and they did not show up. And they said that
they actually said, I don't know if you know this, barn.
They said that they never met up with me either.
Speaker 6: I from from being a presenter, I've worked at a
lot of you know, a lot of conventions in you
two as well, you know, and you know when we
go to these events, it's always like a roulette shoot
whether there's a projector or a microphone or anything's gonna work.
So I just started bringing all my own stuff. And
this is why, like you know, between me, actually, I'm
going to give a shout out because that first year,
I didn't bring a projector and we ended up using
Chad Lewis's. Oh yeah, so his projector that year. But
ever since then we've been said, Yeah, that first year
was rough there.
Speaker 3: I remember.
Speaker 6: Not your fault, not your fault. You paid the guy
to be there.
Speaker 2: And.
Speaker 3: I did get my money back, but I was not happy.
Speaker 6: That's good, and I did get a bonus, you know,
So there we go.
Speaker 3: We're good. They there you go.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yep, all right, enough of this foolery. Uh Mac.
For as much as we screw around on here, I mean,
you are a very well read, well researched, well educated
man of the community here. I mean you've you've done
so much research on all kinds of topics. Letting, as
I said in your your bio and stuff. You've you
lead tours, ghost tours and historical tours and stuff around Chicago,
and bus tours and all kinds of stuff. You know
what you're talking about. And I saw recently you were
at the Starved Rock Convention in Illinois there and gave
up presentation on something that we haven't talked about at
all on our show. So today I want to talk
to you about the Men in Black.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I don't. I don't think I'm that educated,
but I certainly do my research when I'm interested in something,
you know, and the men in black is a really
interesting phenomena because it's you know, it's associated with the
with the UFO phenomena. However, it's my opinion, and I
could be wrong that it doesn't stop at UFOs. I
think it goes in a lot of other directions. For example,
in the presentation that I just gave at Starved Rock
Starved Rock State Park in Illinois, is the minute black
may be associated with fairy lore as well, and there
is a lot of examples in fairy mythology of these
black clad beings that people encounter. The there is in Celtic,
in British mythology, there is the the the the old
Hag that is by a river and she's in like
a black cloak, and individuals will pass by and she
basically she's an omen for or their misfortune or for
their death. Well, people might say, well, how is that
connected to the men in black? Well, first of all,
the black clad attire and also men in black they
have been known to cause misfortune or to cause bad
luck to people. So there is definitely a psychic events
to the Men in Black. When people think of the
Men in Black, they think of the nineteen ninety seven
Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones movie where they are
secret government agents. Well, I'm not denying that there are
secret government agents involved. I just don't think that is
the case all the time. I think there is something
other going on. And I use the word other like
a capital O. And hold on, barnaby, I need to
plug in computer because it's about to die.
Speaker 6: All right, I'll let you guys. Just for everybody listening,
we are pre recorded today. So if you have questions
or comments throughout the show and we happen to be
ignoring them, it is a you know, we're not ignoring you.
We are just not live today in the studio. Bed
in mind as we go forward here with Jack, as
soon as he gets his up set back up, there
we go. So, Jack, let's let's back up here to
the very beginning in your research and your understanding. Where
do you see like the first recorded instances of these
these beings or people, entities whatever showing up and referenced.
Speaker 3: Well, here's the thing. If we're going to the more
traditional approach of the men in black. Then we need
to go to the nineteen fifties to Albert Bender. Albert
Bender was a scientifiction enthusiast and he was also interested
in the UFO phenomena. And Albert Bender had an organization
and that organization I have it here is called the
International Flying Saucer Bureau or IFSB for sure. Albert Bender
also was the editor of a newsletter called Space Review. Well,
what ended up happening is these men in black would
approach him and they would tell him that he needs
to close down his organization, which was basically it was
a UFO club where people would get together discuss UFOs
and he didn't listen, and they appeared to him a
couple times. And what ended up happening is eventually he
did close the organization and it wasn't until nineteen sixty two,
I believe, yeah, in nineteen sixty two that he wrote
a book called Flying Saucers and the Three Men. And
Barnaby was that Gray Barker who wrote it about Albert
Bender or Albert Bender that actually wrote a juno. Okay,
well it was one of those, because I get to
Gray Barker in a second. But in nineteen sixty two,
a book came out called it was called you Know,
the Flying Saucers and the Three Men, And basically what
the book was about was what happened during that time
when the men, these men in black, these men they
were dressed in like black suits, white shirts, black tie,
what happened when they would approach Albert Bender. And basically
Bender talks about how very strange things would happen. They
would harass him, tell him to close down his organization.
But he said that sometimes they didn't speak verbally to him,
but telepathically, and that they seem to have a robotic
nature as well. Eventually, Albert Bender became ill, he physically ill,
and this induced fear within him. It induced paranoia, and
so that's why he actually did close down his organization.
And then you get Gray Barker, another UFO researcher who
knew Albert Bender. Now Grey Barker, it's a little Grey
Barker is an interesting character because he was a sensationalist
and he did write several books. But it's really hard
to take what he said very seriously because he would
mix truth with exaggerations. And the famous researcher paranormal researcher
John Keel even talked about this because he knew Great
Barker as well. But yeah, to your question, I would
say the Men in Black they go back to the fifties,
but like I said, they could go back possibly even
older than that.
Speaker 6: And you had mentioned like the fairy lore stuff and
the links there. Do you have like very similar occurrences
in that, like are people that are interested in fairies
or stumble on fairies or something, are they approached by
these beings the same way like told to leave it
alone or threatened?
Speaker 3: You know, that's a really interesting question actually because not
exactly like the Men in Black phenomena, but you do
have a lot of fairies, fairy and counters and people
that I've talked to myself where the fairy creature or
being i should say, will say something something to the
effect of, you know, either you saw nothing here, or
you know you won't see me again, or you know,
things like that, things that are kind of similar to
what the Men in Black are saying when they say
you didn't see a UFO, don't talk about your UFO siting,
you know, things of that nature. You know, Actually, Nick Redfern,
the well known paranormal researcher Nick Redfern. He collected a
story and honestly, I don't know his source for this.
I tried looking, I couldn't find it. But he has
a story that in Wales nineteen o nine there was
a mass sighting of several orbs and they weren't necessarily
UF foes because they were very low to the ground,
but they were orbs. And after this mass sighting, a
black clad man descended into the town with a horse
and he galloped from from one house to another, and
he would knock on a door and he would tell
people not to talk about their experiences. So you know,
if that, if that's true, then that's definitely like a
one for one Men in Black antecedent, kind of.
Speaker 6: Like a reverse Paul Revere.
Speaker 3: Yeah, actually, yeah, the British.
Speaker 6: Becoming Yeah, that's really interesting. So okay, so again you
brought up John Keel. John Keel mentions in his book,
you know, like the Mothman prophecies and stuff he has
run ins with not just what's his name, the one guy,
but also the men in Black.
Speaker 3: What guy?
Speaker 6: I can't think of his name? Indried Cold, Yes, Indured Cold,
thank you.
Speaker 4: So it was.
Speaker 3: It wasn't Keel that that ran into Injured Cold, but Rugel.
Darren Berger had encounters with with this alleged Injured Cold character,
and John Keele interviewed rujol Derrenberger a couple couple of
different times. Now, for those that don't know, Darren Berger was,
you know, he was just kind of like a regular
guy living in Point Pleasant or near Point Pleasant, West
Virginia during nineteen sixty six during the uh the Mothman
flat but everybody was seeing Mouthman in the hundreds and
darren Berger said that he was driving along the road
and a ship descended and a smiling man approached to
his vehicle wearing shiny clothes, and you know, the man
actually just made small talk with darren Berger. It was
not much more to that. It wasn't until succeeding encounters
with darren Berger, I'm sorry with Injured Cold that Darren
Burger would like be on his spaceship and he would
take him around the galaxy and you know all sorts
of you know, crazy things like that.
Speaker 6: So there's a whole story behind that. I mean, like
it went on for years, and you know, they had
anner of the podcasts the whole Yeah, the whole injured
cold thing is. But okay, so maybe correct me if
I'm wrong. Was there not men in black involved in
the whole Mothman thing? Because I thought that they had
showed up at the newspaper as well.
Speaker 3: There. Yeah, there was a lot of men in black
sightings during the period of nineteen sixty six to nineteen
sixty seven in the Point Pleasant area. Mary Hyer, who
was a reporter journalist in Point Pleasance, said that a
man came into her office and was asking about witnesses
for these for the mothman sightings and UFO sightings, and
he he seemed very odd. He seemed out of place.
And it was a lot of things like that that
she was talking about. But you know, I mean, here's
the thing, Barnaby. I mean, we could go on and
on about the men in black sightings in that time,
but basically how they were summed up during this nineteen
sixty six to nineteen sixty seven period and even later on,
is they they were seen as not quite human. And
I actually have a couple quotes if I could read
to you so regarding descriptions of the men in black.
Here's a quote, right, here. They looked like men, but
they did not act like men. Another one is their
clothing often seemed new, ill fitting, as if they did
not quite understand how to dress like human beings. Another
one goes, some of them did not seem to know
how to eat or drink properly. Another goes, the phenomena
are not extraterrestrial. Their ultra terrestrial. That's a quote by
John Keel. I get to ultratreustrial in a second. But
another quote goes, they asked questions that didn't make sense,
like they didn't understand what they were asking. And lastly,
that one that I collected was they seemed to be
acting out a role as if following a script. So
do you see what I mean Where it's they're human,
they but off they're not totally human. And that one
bit about they didn't seem to know how they how
to eat or drink something, well, there's a great example
of that. One of the witnesses that encountered the men
in black. You know, they're over here knocking on the door.
They want to be let in. They're let in, and
they're offered jello, and he has a jello and a
utensil in his hand, but he didn't know how to
it seemed like he didn't know how to use it,
so he just swallowed the jello whole. And you know,
it's things like that, very peculiar things. Examples like they
didn't know how to use a pencil or pen things
like that. A lot of times Men in Black are
described as not or described as speaking monotone, seeming to
have a very robotic voice. There's this one example, and
then in the sixties where the Men in Black is
harassing a UFO witness and they're being you know, they're
being shouted at, and they're being told not to talk
about their experience. And in the midst of this, his
voice changes and becomes even more robotic and he says,
very peculiarly, I have to go. My battery is running out,
and he storms out. So and you know, another really
interesting thing about the Men in Black is it's a
misconception that they are constantly harassing people. Sometimes they actually
just go to a witness's home and ask some questions
about their experience and then leaves. And then also it's
also a misconception that they tell witnesses like don't talk
about your experience oftentimes they just want information and then
they go.
Speaker 6: So have there been any encounters or experiences with the
Men in Black where they're like benevolent where they help
people or anything.
Speaker 3: Where they help people?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 3: Actually not to my knowledge now that Like I said,
there are experiences that are not unpleasant. Yeah, an official No.
Has there has there been any reports of while witnessing
a craft or extraterrestrial being or citing or something, and
these things show up while it's happening. Well, let me
ask you, do you know of any examples of that?
Speaker 6: Well, if I wouldn't ask you up the example, Oh
you literally, I.
Speaker 3: Thought I thought you were going somewhere with that.
Speaker 6: I have some stories of like people seeing like the
military at a location, you know, like craft recovery or
something like that, and the Men in Black are there
with the military.
Speaker 3: Okay, I like stories like that. What I thought you
were going to say, I thought you were going to
because I don't have specific examples, but I have read
many times that they will. The men in Black will
show up the same day sometimes that the UFO experience.
Witnesses saw the UFO, and witnesses will be like, well,
I haven't even told anybody yet so how did how
did they know? So that, you know, there are examples
like that, but not while the experience is happening to mine,
you know. No, but that's the that's the thing about
this whole phenomenon. It's so tricky and it's so knvoluted,
and that's that's why, you know, it's it's hard to
say anything with certainty, but for your example that you're giving, no,
I'm not familiar with that. But but right afterwards, Yeah,
the phantoms in your house are slimming. Yeah, let me
hold on.
Speaker 6: Jack has a paranormal apartment there and the doors just
keep slamming. That's that's the men in black trying to
shut him up.
Speaker 3: Okay, sorry about that. It's the I says, the men
in black trying to shut you up.
Speaker 4: There.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, probably we're gonna get.
Speaker 6: Gagged and dragged off screen pretty quick here.
Speaker 3: That'll makes you a good movie, it would.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Uh, we'll plan that next time. So anyway, okay,
so tell me a little bit about the men in
black in general, because what I've heard, and you know, again,
correct me if you've you've read differently, but there seems
to be again usually two one is short. One is taller.
One usually talks, the other one is more like a
muscle kind of person.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm. I mean, here's the thing. That is the
case sometimes, but that's not the case all the time.
Sometimes they look identical to each other. And you know,
actually that's I'm actually glad that you asked that, because
that will segue into another phenomena that has taken place.
That it is, my opinion, is similar to the Men
in Black. Are you familiar with the phantom social worker phenomena?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: No, no, So the phantom social worker phenomena is really interesting.
So what happened is in the eighties and nineties, Uh,
there would be a knock on a door and I
should say, actually, this is more This was more prominent
in Britain than it was in America, although it did
happen in America, but it was much more prominent in Britain.
So there would be a knock on a door and
the parents would open and it was like the British
version of d cfis and they would say, you know,
we were called because there's been a complaint that something
is going on, you know, at home, and I don't
know what I'm allowed to say on this podcast, Can
I is there is this family friendly or.
Speaker 6: Kind of yeah? But I mean I don't go off
the rails, you know, kind of you but yeah.
Speaker 3: Okay, so that there was there was abuse. I wasn't
sure if I could say that more, but yeah, that
there was there's abuse going on in the home and
we need to inspect your child. And the parents, you know,
of course, would be you know, up in arms, like
what the heck is going on here? You know, and
they would they were like usually they were just like
flash identification and that was it. And because parents were
so scared about what was taking place, more often than
not they would let these individuals come in. And the
reason why I say that I'm glad that you as
asked the question that you did, is because it's it
was about ninety five percent of the time the same
It was two men and one woman, so three DCFS agents.
And keep in mind, I say DCFS because that's the
American version. I forgot what the British version was. But
three of these agents come inside and they would inspect
the child and then and sometimes they would leave, and
what the parent would do right away is they would
call the police. In all these stories, actually I shouldn't
say stories. These were actual reports. Also. If that didn't happen,
then the other thing that would happen was many times
they would say we need we need to take your child,
and that's when the parents were like, Okay, I want
to see your identification again and I need to call
your agency before any of this happens. And every single
time when they were asked or demanded to see their
identification again, they would flee. They would just leave and
be like, okay, you know, we'll we'll contact you later on.
DCFS was always called afterwards, and the police was what
we're called as well, and DCFS would come back and say,
we don't have anybody work care by that name. That
was always the case. This was so prominent that, especially
in a couple of different districts, it was so prominent
that the police did get involved and they created a
task force for this. I believe the task force was
called something to the fact of Operation Child Welfare, Operation Childcare,
something to that defect. And not one single arrest was
ever made. And we're talking about dozens and dozens and
dozens of reports throughout several districts and spilling into the
United States as well. And nobody was ever caught, and
the descriptions were very similar to the men in Black.
Many of these parents would say that these individuals were
wearing wigs. Well, the men in Black have been described
the same way. The parents would also say that the
individuals were wearing very heavy makeup. Also, the men in
black have been described as pale with you know, makeup
on them. So, you know, I think I think there's
a connection there. Now, the question is, what the heck
do these things want? You know, I mean, they seem
to be easily scared and they're disappearing. And oftentimes when
you're coming back.
Speaker 6: When you talk about the phantom social worker people, do
they have the same kind of like speech problem or
you know, like the not kind of knowing what's going
on like the men in black.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they they seem very out of character. They're described
as being awkward, they're described as not professional, and it's
it's so similar to the men in black. Like I
you know, I know, I'm not the first researcher to
make this connection, but at the same time, there's a
lot of people that are not talking enough about this.
Speaker 6: To me, it almost sounds like, I mean, you said
that was like the eighties and nineties that this was
going on. Yep, it seems kind of late, but I mean,
you know, we still have it today. But this seems
more like, you know, like human trafficking, kind of like
they're going in inspecting it for like you know, the
slave trade or you know, the sex trade or something
like that, that they're going to take these children away,
and if they don't meet standards of what they're looking
forward to sell or whatever, maybe they leave them there.
Speaker 3: There's a book called The Child Steelers and the name
of the authors case me. I have the book, the
name of the authors shapes me. But that is his conclusion. Actually,
he does address the supernatural element to it, but he
doesn't believe it. He says that he thinks they are
real people and it's part of some human trafficking organization.
But he is also at a loss with it too,
because he says, man, if this is a child trafficking organization,
then not only is this a huge organization, not only
is it international, but it is the most clumsy human
trafficking organization ever. And he goes into more detail about that.
Speaker 6: But yeah, well, another side note, if you want to
take this down this road, again, when you're talking about
the connection between the Men in Black and the fairy lore,
a lot of fairies would kidnap children as well, And
there's a lot of mythology behind that of these you know,
doppel gangers and uh change links and stuff like that.
They're stealing the children there, So I mean, I I
see where that could fall into this aspect in realm two.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, definitely, I mean I mean, luckily the Men
in Black don't try to do that, but yeah, these
these groups do.
Speaker 6: So yeah, has there was there any reports of them
actually getting a child?
Speaker 3: No, No, there isn't. Actually now in the book that
I mentioned, Uh, he does talk about actual kidnappings. But
see what that author does is he's combining like the
more esoteric encounters with these people versus you know, more
what I would say, a real world encounters where it's
like actual child kidnappers and the descriptions the two in
the book are not the same. So but to your question, no,
these these more odd ones outter is not a word,
but these more uh strange, the stranger ones, Like, no,
there's no examples of kids actually being connapped.
Speaker 6: Interesting, was there a lot of like child disappearances or
anything reported at that time, Like, did a spike in
missing people go up?
Speaker 2: Not?
Speaker 3: Not, that's a good question, not not that I've come across, uh,
nor nor others that that I've seen.
Speaker 6: Now, I mean, like, wouldn't it be easier just to
go to the playground and snatch a kid then go
into someone's house and and make some stuff up? Of course,
I guess if if you go into someone's house and
your child protective services or something and you say, hey,
I'm taking the child, there's less likelihood of them saying, hey,
my child's missing than oh crap, you know, the the
government just took my kid. You know, you're not as
prone to report it that way, I guess, you know,
whereas if someone just went missing, So yeah, for sure,
you know, as adds a little more credibility to their theft.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and go go ahead.
Speaker 6: Oh no, I was not kind of thing else.
Speaker 3: You know, I would even connect this. Are you familiar
with the case of Gary Sudbrink. Gary Sudbrink is is
a really interesting case. He was an Air Force captain
in nineteen ninety one and he was on leave, so
he went decides to go visit his family in Texas,
and he gets there and he gets actually, let me
back up, So he's on. He's in the airport and
a man approaches him and starts small talk with him
and says, and Gary right away was getting a weird
feeling about about this guy because he had a panic
clipboard on him. And finally he asked Gary what's his name?
And Gary just looked at him and it's like, I'm
not I'm not going to give you my name. And
the guy goes, oh, don't worry, You're not going to
get in trouble, and Gary, having no idea what's going on,
Gary figured like, all right, I'm in the military, So
is this someone from the military keeping an eye on me?
But why why would that be? So he ignores the guy.
He goes on the plane. He sits down, and while
he sat down, another man, a different man, sits next
to him and starts the same line of questioning of
where's he going, his name, things like that. Gary doesn't
want to talk to him. So the stewardess eventually comes
and says, not to Gary, but the stranger. She goes
to the stranger, sir, you're in the wrong seat. So
the guy sits behind Gary and the students comes back
and says, sir, you're in the wrong seat, and Gary
said that he never saw the guy again after that. Well,
he gets home, he surprises his family that he's home.
He's going to visit them, and he makes a call
to one of his friends to let him know that
he's in town and his friend says, his friend goes, hey, man,
you sound better than you did the last time we talked,
and Gary didn't. He kind of like dismissed what he said.
And the conversation, you know, continues and he's like, yeah,
you know, I just got in and then his friend's like, dude,
we already had this conversation. He goes, you arrived at
such and such airport and Gary's like, no, no, no,
I arrived at this airport, not the one he just mentioned.
And he's like, dude, we just on the phone yesterday
and you told me that you were in town and
your voice was weird and you sounded sick. And Gary
was like, dude, I just got into town today. Like
I don't know what the heck you're talking about. So
Gary's like, Okay, something weird is going on. While he's
on the phone with his friend, another call is coming
in and this is nineteen ninety one, so you could
how do you say you were able to record conversations
through your answering machine at that time. So Gary puts
on the recording of his answer machine and picks up
the other call, and it is a robotic voice. You
could actually find this on YouTube. Just type in Gary
Suidbrink and Gary recorded all four phone calls, and each
time a robotic voice asking him when he's going to
come back. And the voice makes other strange comments such as,
there is double of you, you are being impersonated by
the other voice, keep your eyes on Orion, things like that,
very cryptic things, and one hundred percent it is a robotic,
monotone voice, and it's as if it's reading from a script.
It wasn't answering any of Gary's questions. I think that
is an example of possibly one of the men in Black. Yeah.
Gary didn't talk about his experience for a long time.
He happened to go into a UFO conference in the
early two thousands, and while there he strikes up a
conversation with UFO researcher I forget her name, but she
was just awe struck about his experience, and she goes,
who else have you talked about this with and he goes,
no one, You're you're the first one, just me and
my family. And then she's like, do you happen, by
any chance to have the recordings still? And he goes, yeah,
I've always kept them. So she got ahold of them,
and with his permission, she uploaded them online. You could
listen to them now.
Speaker 6: It's just there's so many more questions than answers to
that story.
Speaker 3: Oh yes there is. Gary doesn't really do podcasts. He's
done one podcast, and I mean he has other experiences,
but I mean it could go on and on. But
it's other types of weird phenomena like that. For example,
he was with his girlfriend at one point, this was
many years ago, and they hear a helicopter very loudly outside,
and he looks outside and him and his girlfriend see
a black helicopter descend into the backyard and then rise
up and take off. However, while he was looking at
this helicopter, he sees his neighbor on the other side,
and his neighbor was not reacting to the helicopter, but
yet him and his girlfriend did see it. So he's
not going crazy, you know.
Speaker 6: So, ah, wow, there's there's there's a lot there. I
don't I don't even know what to make about.
Speaker 3: I think that's the point of Barnaby. You know.
Speaker 6: Earlier I earlier, I read.
Speaker 3: That that quotes where it's the phenomenon are not extra
rust they are ultraterrestrial. That was said by John Keel.
It's the idea that these things they're not fully human,
but they're mimicking humans. Their agenda is not something that
we would understand. They exist on a different plane of existence,
you know. They are the embodiment of puzzles.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: I don't think we're meant to understand what they are.
Speaker 6: Has there been any instances of radioactivity or anything reported
with them, like after an encounter with them. Has any
of the people gotten sick from like a radiation burns
or anything.
Speaker 3: Well, radiation burns, No, I'm not that I'm aware of.
But they have gotten physically sick. People have became nauseous,
they became ill, bedridden afterwards. So it's like the example
I gave you in the beginning about mythology. Sometimes you
encounter some of these mythological beings and you get physically
sick or even worse you pass away. Hmm.
Speaker 6: Interesting. Yeah, I mean there's there's obviously so much more
to this phenomenon, and we could we could talk for
hours about it, but I think this is probably a
good place to round things up here at the end
of the hour.
Speaker 4: Here.
Speaker 3: But with the phantom clown phenomena, I've heard you know
that I had a sighting of a clown, right, No, yeah,
I was.
Speaker 6: I don't talk about it much because it was really creepy,
but I was out in the woods doing a bigfoot
investigation and I was walked. I came out of the
woods onto a two track road and I turned, and
you know that I used to in a haunted house attraction. Yeah,
so I'm familiar with all kinds of weird props and
animatronics and you know, haunted house stuff. And I turned
and out of the side of my view, like right here,
maybe like two feet in front of me, to my right,
there was a clown standing dead pan. Uh kind of
looked like doofin Schmertz from Phineas and Ferb with the
long nose, had a big roughed collar, black and white
checked and uh, the like a jesterre hat sure, and
I saw it, and it to me, it just triggered
this whole like, oh, I'm in a haunted house. Like
it's it's no big deal. Yeah, it didn't phaze me
until I realized that I'm standing out in the woods
and this thing shouldn't be there, and it kicked in
like oh my gosh, you know, and it was gone.
It didn't move, didn't do nothing, didn't even look at me,
looked like across the path. So all right, I got that. Yeah, yeah,
what what is your phantom clown phenomenon?
Speaker 3: Because now yeah, and then I gotta go son barnaby.
But the phantom clown phenomena took place in the again
in the in the eighties, uh, predominantly in the eighties,
but going into the nineties where now this started in
the East Coast of the US where many individuals hold
on kids school school children were saying that a clown
was harassing them after school and even luring them into
into a van. Now you may say, well, what does
this still hang on? What time the eighties?
Speaker 6: So right about the time that it came out.
Speaker 3: Okay, so that's interesting. It would have came out after.
Speaker 6: This maybe based on that. Then Okay, carry on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's very good bying to be your researcher.
I did look it up and I have it in
my notes. Let me so. Yeah, that movie came out
in nineteen I'm sorry, that book by Stephen King came
out in nineteen eighty six, and this took place. I
want to say it was nineteen eighty four. I'm not mistaken,
but it was for sure before the book. It's so Yeah,
they were saying that these school kids were saying that
a clown was luring them into the van or harassing
them after school, following them. Now you may say, well,
like maybe that's like some psychopaths open or some predator. However,
this was happening down the East Coast and several school
districts were involved. So many kids complained about it that
schools got involved in several school districts, so that a
memo to parents saying, what's taking place, Maybe it's a
good idea to pick up your child. Keep in mind,
the newspapers are reported on this as well. Police became involved,
not one single arrest was ever made. Later on that year,
you go into these sightings start happening in the midwest, Kansas, Kentucky, Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana,
throughout the Midwest, school children I see clowns, oftentimes in
a blue van and trying to lure them inside, but
not one single arrest was ever made. I think the
phenomenon is it is connected, you know. And you could
say something like like, well, this is the eighties and nineties.
There's urban legends were rife in the US at this time.
Sure that that is true, but I mean you had
too many There's far too many kids that are saying
that something is taking place here.
Speaker 6: You know, there was John Gacy, right, John Gacy, Yeah, Yeah,
John Wayne Gacy, Yeah, was the clown that went around
kidnapping people and stuff.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: But again that was also you know, the so when
he got caught, I believe, oh gosh, that was late eighties.
But you know, John Wayne Gacy, he's in uh he
was in Chicago, right, I mean he was in along
the East coast. And keep in mind, a lot of
the a lot of the sightings of these phantom clowns
even made its way to South America. So I think
the phenomena minute black phantom social workers, phantom clowns, it's
part of this what John Keel calls this ultra terrestrial theory.
They they are existing between spaces, you know, between this
world and the next. What their agenda is, you know,
it's anyone's guess.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, there's there's so much stuff out there.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 6: Just a few years ago, I want to say, twenty
twelve or twenty thirteen, we had a whole bunch of
clown sightings in Wisconsin here just standing out under street lights,
and it was a big, big thing in the news
and TV.
Speaker 3: I do remember that, and escalated in twenty sixteen. But honestly,
the phenomena that that thing is is not as the
same as what was going on in the eighties and
the like. These were actual what you're talking about in
the mid two thousands or twenty tens, I should say,
was those were real people? You know, those were I mean,
we haven't recorded well, yeah, but.
Speaker 6: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you know, I.
Speaker 6: Don't know either, So yeah, I mean it was it
was so bad in the news that you know, like
I said, I was running a haunted house and we
didn't do any clown theme that year because we didn't
want our actors getting arrested when they went, oh, make
up on stuff. Wow, it was that intense that you
know there were any slightings and stuff.
Speaker 3: So that's awesome.
Speaker 6: All right, Jack, you gotta get going. Thank you so
much for coming on. Tell everybody you got your convention
coming up. Run down some details on that again real quick.
Speaker 3: So it'll be it's the Paranormal Chicago Convention and that'll
be Saturday, June thirteenth from twelve pm, so noon till
seven pm, and it's just a one dow entrance and
we're gonna have a great time.
Speaker 6: Awesome. You also are the founder of the Paranormal Chicago
group on Facebook. The link is in the show notes
for that. Anybody wants to come check out all things
paranormal in Chicago, everything from the convention to other events
and ghost tours and stuff going on in the area.
And you are the host of Channeling Chavez. Tell everyone
where they can find that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Channeling Javis is my podcast and we just have
it on YouTube right now. So yeah, it's been it's
we've been going on for a year and still going strong.
We don't have a lot of views, but we are
having fun doing it.
Speaker 6: Very cool. The link for your YouTube channel as well
is in the show notes for anybody interested. So there
you go, as well as the convention. So thanks Barnaby
absolutely man, thank you. I look forward to seeing you
for a couple of great events this year in Delevan
as well as Chicago. Until next time, guys, Thanks Jack,
We'll see Larre all right, guys, that is our show.
Thank you all for tuning in this week. Remember to
go check out the Contact Modalities Expo in Delavan, Wisconsin.
Jack will be at that event May first through the
third in Delavan, Wisconsin, and then his own event, the
Paranormal Chicago Convention again Saturday, June thirteenth. One dollar admission,
free parking. You can't beat that in Chicago. A lot
of great vendors and it's a really good time. So
if you guys want, head on over to check that out.
Of the links for all that as well as Jack's
podcast are in the show notes. So until next time, guys.
Remember we're all part of the paranormal spectrum. Take care,
be well and I'll see you on the edge.
Speaker 4: You seem to know, so.
Speaker 6: Let's call it King. Tell me please.
Speaker 1: That thing trees from Bringes sitting in.
Speaker 4: Their room and I can feed it. Kaine I'm bringing
under rich come ad Ricaine. It's canon dilland Ham aard Ricaine,
only some tobo baggage. Tame A heard Kaine. I'm trying, yah,