1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,640 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,560 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime. 13 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:47,039 Speaker 4: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murder. 14 00:00:47,079 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,119 Speaker 4: We are joined today by Mark Olshaker, author of too 16 00:00:54,159 --> 00:00:57,359 many books to count at this point, writing partner with 17 00:00:57,719 --> 00:01:00,840 John Douglas. Mark, welcome to the podcast. 18 00:01:01,159 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 5: Thank you, Kristen. Always good to be here. 19 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 4: Can you actually give us account of how many books 20 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:06,280 you've written at this. 21 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 5: Point, Let's say, with John, I think we've done like 22 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,640 ten or eleven. Now I'm not quite sure something like that. 23 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:16,079 Speaker 2: And then and then on your own you've written a 24 00:01:16,159 --> 00:01:17,079 number of books as well. 25 00:01:17,239 --> 00:01:20,439 Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, I've written in five novels and a couple 26 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:22,599 of other nonfiction books. 27 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 4: And I know when I talked to you the other day, 28 00:01:24,239 --> 00:01:27,000 you said you're working in one with doctor Ostroholm right now, 29 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:28,079 another pandemic. 30 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,799 Speaker 5: We're doing another book, a sequel to the one we 31 00:01:30,799 --> 00:01:34,400 put out in twenty seventeen, Deadliest Enemy War against the 32 00:01:34,519 --> 00:01:38,519 Killer Germs, which actually, I have to say our chapter 33 00:01:38,599 --> 00:01:43,480 on coronavirus was called Sars and Mers Harbingers of Things 34 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,040 to come. We are doing another book now about what 35 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,920 we've learned and haven't learned from COVID and how we 36 00:01:48,959 --> 00:01:53,400 can apply that, we hope to the next inevitable pandemic. So, yeah, sex, 37 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,120 violence and pestilens, that's what I do. 38 00:01:55,599 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 4: Well, in the first page of that one should just 39 00:01:57,439 --> 00:01:58,200 be we told you. 40 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,079 Speaker 5: Yeah, I know, but people hear that unfortunately. 41 00:02:01,519 --> 00:02:04,879 Speaker 2: Although it probably is good for all of us to 42 00:02:05,359 --> 00:02:09,080 hear you summarize some of what I hope we've learned 43 00:02:09,159 --> 00:02:12,159 from this recent pandemic. I shouldn't even refer to it 44 00:02:12,199 --> 00:02:13,039 in the past tense. 45 00:02:13,479 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, No, it's one of the things the only thing 46 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,680 we really didn't predict and didn't talk about in Deadliest Enemy, 47 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,319 And the thing that really surprised us the most was 48 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,159 what I would just call the non compliance. I thought 49 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,919 everybody would want to pull together on this common threat, 50 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,879 Whilst we would expect humanity to pull together if there 51 00:02:32,879 --> 00:02:36,479 were an alien invasion. We were just surprised that they didn't. 52 00:02:36,479 --> 00:02:40,400 That it became so politicized that the people would act 53 00:02:40,439 --> 00:02:44,199 against their own best interests just because of a political 54 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:48,159 view they'd taken. And the other thing is, I think 55 00:02:48,199 --> 00:02:51,520 from both sides, from both the Trump administration and the 56 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,879 Biden administration, I have to say I'm very disappointed in 57 00:02:55,960 --> 00:03:00,879 the public messaging, the messaging from CDC, from NIA and others. 58 00:03:01,599 --> 00:03:05,240 We really need to develop a strong sense of humility 59 00:03:05,319 --> 00:03:09,039 about what we know and don't know, and just be prepared. 60 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:11,800 So yeah, I think there's a lot of lessons and 61 00:03:11,879 --> 00:03:14,960 I think we're still just we're still processing them. And 62 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,840 people often ask me what's the connection between the writing 63 00:03:18,879 --> 00:03:21,840 you do about public health and the writing you do 64 00:03:22,039 --> 00:03:25,840 about criminal justice, And I say they're both mystery stories 65 00:03:25,879 --> 00:03:29,240 and about killers who are lurking there when we least 66 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,879 expect them, and they're both detective stories, and I think 67 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,879 they're all crime and disease are always going to be 68 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,800 with us, and I have a tremendous amount of respect 69 00:03:38,919 --> 00:03:42,800 for the detectives and investigators in both of those fields 70 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:44,719 who try to get ahead of the problem. 71 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,159 Speaker 4: Mark, we wanted to bring you in today to talk 72 00:03:47,199 --> 00:03:49,599 a little bit about John Hinckley, who has been in 73 00:03:49,639 --> 00:03:53,199 the news recently because he has been released from all 74 00:03:53,319 --> 00:03:56,520 court oversight with relation to his role in the near 75 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,719 assassination of Ronald Reagan. For any of our listeners who 76 00:04:00,719 --> 00:04:03,360 may not be aware, because we do have international listeners 77 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,439 and we also have some younger listeners, can you just 78 00:04:06,479 --> 00:04:09,319 tell us very quickly who John Hinckley Junior actually is. 79 00:04:10,039 --> 00:04:15,319 Speaker 5: Yeah. John Hinckley Junior was a young man on March thirtieth, 80 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:20,240 nineteen eighty one, who waited outside the Washington Hilton Hotel 81 00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:24,439 after new President Ronald Reagan was giving a speech. He 82 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,040 came out one of the lower entrances to his waiting 83 00:04:28,079 --> 00:04:31,839 limousine with his press secretary James Grady and a couple 84 00:04:31,879 --> 00:04:35,000 of other aides and his coterie of guards and secret 85 00:04:35,079 --> 00:04:38,240 service agents, and John Hinckley came up to him and 86 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:43,480 fired into the group, seriously injuring Jim Grady. He never 87 00:04:43,519 --> 00:04:46,920 worked again from that day on. And it turns out 88 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,439 when they got into the limousine and they rushed off, 89 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,399 found out that President Reagan had been seriously injured. He 90 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,879 was taken to George Washington University Hospital emergency room, where 91 00:04:56,879 --> 00:05:01,079 we found out later he almost died. John Hinckley was arrested. 92 00:05:01,439 --> 00:05:05,279 He was put on trial for attempted murder and assassination 93 00:05:05,439 --> 00:05:08,959 because that is a federal crime. And it turns out 94 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,639 that his whole attempt was a He wanted to impress 95 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,240 the actress Jodie Foster, who he'd first seen in the 96 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,680 movie Taxi Driver with Robert de Niro, and he thought 97 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,360 that somehow if he committed this dramatic act and had 98 00:05:25,399 --> 00:05:27,920 her come away with him, she would be impressed and 99 00:05:27,959 --> 00:05:33,079 he would win her affection. Through that, he was i suspect. 100 00:05:33,199 --> 00:05:36,959 Through that, and through some probably good representation, he was 101 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:41,079 found not guilty by reason of insanity and committed to 102 00:05:41,639 --> 00:05:45,000 Saint Elizabeth's Hospital for the mentally Ill at that time 103 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:50,560 and where he remained for several decades, eventually being allowed 104 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,079 some limited privileges, then being allowed to go to his 105 00:05:54,319 --> 00:05:58,680 parents' home in Williamsburg, Virginia, and as Kristen said, most 106 00:05:58,759 --> 00:06:04,959 recently being deemed completely recovered, maintained saying whatever you want 107 00:06:04,959 --> 00:06:08,040 to call it, and allowed to go about his business. 108 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:10,800 He's now in his sixties. 109 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 2: I believe, yes, before we get into Hinckley and some 110 00:06:14,439 --> 00:06:17,639 of the mechanics involved. It seems to me the Secret 111 00:06:17,639 --> 00:06:21,240 Service has been back in the news recently. I don't 112 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,120 feel like a president in twenty twenty two, regardless of 113 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,879 who the president might be, would be exposed in the 114 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:33,439 same way the President Reagan was on the steps of 115 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:34,759 a major hotel. 116 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,959 Speaker 5: Probably right, Bill, But things have gotten tighter and tighter 117 00:06:39,199 --> 00:06:43,439 as we've gone along. It's unimaginable now to think that 118 00:06:44,199 --> 00:06:47,600 a president could be exposed the way President Kennedy was 119 00:06:47,639 --> 00:06:51,560 on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three, riding in a 120 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:56,480 somewhat hostile city of Dallas, Texas in an open top limousine. 121 00:06:56,519 --> 00:06:59,959 That's just in a slow moving motorcade. That's n things 122 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,319 thable today. During the Clinton administration, the Secret Service closed 123 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,439 off Pennsylvania Avenue in front of the White House to 124 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,920 avoid truck bombs or car bombs. More and more things 125 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,319 have happened like this, if you remember, since this has 126 00:07:15,399 --> 00:07:19,160 also been in the news. President Trump wanted to go 127 00:07:19,279 --> 00:07:22,560 to the Capitol on January sixth, the twenty twenty one, 128 00:07:22,879 --> 00:07:26,759 after his incendiary speech near the White House, and the 129 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,600 Secret Service said that he couldn't go. In fact, he 130 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,000 also wanted the magnetometers taken away from the site where 131 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,480 he was speaking so that the more and more people 132 00:07:37,639 --> 00:07:40,279 of his followers can be let in. The Secret Service, 133 00:07:40,319 --> 00:07:43,120 of course, were trying to keep all weapons out. Trump 134 00:07:43,199 --> 00:07:45,360 didn't seem to care about that because he thought that 135 00:07:45,399 --> 00:07:47,800 the weapons were not aimed at him. Yeah. I think 136 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,800 there's been tighter and tighter security as we've gotten more 137 00:07:50,839 --> 00:07:55,000 sophisticated about what's going on in this country. And look, 138 00:07:55,120 --> 00:08:00,000 we are a violent country. There was a mass murder 139 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,759 in Copenhagen, Denmark, just this past week. Now what's interesting 140 00:08:04,879 --> 00:08:09,240 is Copenhagen has one twenty fourth of the mass murders 141 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,839 that we do, according to my latest information. But we're 142 00:08:12,839 --> 00:08:14,639 seeing things all over the place now. 143 00:08:14,959 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 2: I know sometimes too, the presidents have surprised the Secret 144 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,959 Service with impromptu jumping out of limousines and that sort 145 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,040 of thing. I know that in the example you just 146 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,680 brought up President Trump didn't want the magnetometers used because 147 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,440 he wanted a larger crowd. But I also remember President 148 00:08:32,519 --> 00:08:34,879 Obama jumping out, I was just going to be around 149 00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:38,480 the mall, and I'm sure it gave his Secret Service 150 00:08:38,519 --> 00:08:38,840 to tail. 151 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,399 Speaker 5: You can only do, you can only do a certain amount. 152 00:08:41,519 --> 00:08:43,440 But I felt the same way when I saw that 153 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,840 scene of Obama built, I said, this is crazy. 154 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:48,639 Speaker 2: As a citizen, I liked it because I thought, Wow, 155 00:08:48,639 --> 00:08:50,600 wouldn't it be cool to see the president and be 156 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,120 able to interact with the president so closely? But from 157 00:08:54,159 --> 00:08:57,559 a Secret Service a details perspective, they had to be 158 00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:58,440 having a cat. 159 00:08:58,519 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, this is the Secret Service has been criticized 160 00:09:02,879 --> 00:09:07,480 a lot of late, sometimes validly, sometimes not validly. But yeah, 161 00:09:07,519 --> 00:09:11,200 it's an increasing problem as our country becomes more and 162 00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:15,480 more politicized, more and more diverse in its political views, 163 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,440 and people are just angry. 164 00:09:17,799 --> 00:09:22,279 Speaker 4: So prior to attempting to assassinate Reagan, Hinckley had actually 165 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,720 stocked President Jimmy Carter and he had stoked to Jodi 166 00:09:25,799 --> 00:09:29,679 Foster in like that seven months prior to actually shooting 167 00:09:29,759 --> 00:09:33,879 President Reagan. Does the Secret Service have an awareness of 168 00:09:33,919 --> 00:09:35,840 those sorts of things when they have been aware that 169 00:09:35,919 --> 00:09:38,080 Hinckley was a stalker, and that only come out late. 170 00:09:38,159 --> 00:09:40,279 Speaker 5: I try, they try to, and this is but this 171 00:09:40,399 --> 00:09:45,279 is not unusual. Most assassins really are not focused as 172 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,320 much as you would think on the object of their 173 00:09:48,639 --> 00:09:52,600 of their violence. It's more about making a name for themselves, 174 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,200 feeling some kind of importance. I can say with I 175 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:59,399 think without any exception, all of the assassins that I 176 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:04,399 can think of have been deeply troubled individuals, very inadequate, 177 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,159 feeling that they had to make their statement somehow. John 178 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:12,039 Hinkley thought that by killing Reagan that he would impress 179 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,919 Sode Foster. Why he thought that remains under discussion. But 180 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,840 Arthur Bremer, who tried to assassinate Governor George Wallace when 181 00:10:20,879 --> 00:10:23,919 Wallace was running for a president on a third party 182 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,919 ticket in nineteen seventy two, he got him at a 183 00:10:28,039 --> 00:10:32,879 shopping center in Laurel, Maryland. Wallace was a paraplegic for 184 00:10:32,919 --> 00:10:35,200 the rest of his life and in pain after that. 185 00:10:35,279 --> 00:10:38,919 But what's interesting is Bremer had nothing particular against Wallace. 186 00:10:39,039 --> 00:10:42,720 He had first stalked President Nixon and tried and stalked 187 00:10:42,759 --> 00:10:45,879 him for several months. But because of the Secret Service. 188 00:10:45,919 --> 00:10:48,360 He was never able to get close enough to Nixon 189 00:10:48,519 --> 00:10:53,000 to do anything. He switched to an easier, less hard 190 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,000 hardened target. All of these got most. Almost all of 191 00:10:56,039 --> 00:10:59,120 these guys, with the exception of a couple like Sarah 192 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,039 Jane Moore and Squeaky From, both of whom tried to 193 00:11:02,159 --> 00:11:05,759 were Manson family members who tried to assassinate President Ford. 194 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,759 Most almost all of these others are men. Almost all 195 00:11:09,799 --> 00:11:12,919 of them come from the backgrounds that were not optimum 196 00:11:12,919 --> 00:11:16,799 in one way or another. They almost all kept diaries 197 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:23,159 and lists of their grievances, so these are pretty much unfocused, 198 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:28,480 angry young men who look for a focus for their 199 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,679 grievance or something to make them stand out, to make 200 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,559 them important, even somebody like Mark David Chapman, who assassinated 201 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:41,000 John Lennon. John Lennon was an international celebrity. Chapman was 202 00:11:41,039 --> 00:11:44,720 a nobody. But if Chapman had power over Lenin, he 203 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,480 became a somebody in his own mind. 204 00:11:47,759 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 2: I want to jump back to Kristen's earlier question for 205 00:11:51,159 --> 00:11:54,600 a second. Mark, I know you were crediting the Secret Service, 206 00:11:54,639 --> 00:11:58,720 who deserved the credit for keeping our public figures safe. 207 00:11:59,039 --> 00:12:01,200 When you say that the Secret Service is able to 208 00:12:01,279 --> 00:12:04,840 head off some of these assassinations. Does that mean then 209 00:12:04,919 --> 00:12:08,799 that those individuals who may have thought of attempting those 210 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:13,639 assassinations move on to the radar of the Secret Service. 211 00:12:13,519 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 5: Or a lot of them? Do The ones you don't 212 00:12:16,039 --> 00:12:19,080 hear about are all the people that the Secret Service 213 00:12:19,159 --> 00:12:21,879 keeps track of, and there are hundreds of them, if 214 00:12:21,919 --> 00:12:26,000 not thousands. I was involved in a situation once where 215 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,320 I contacted the Secret Service about somebody who I thought 216 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,000 from communications with me, I thought might have been a threat, 217 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,320 and the Secret Service that, yeah, we know about him. 218 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is someone we are aware of and 219 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,559 on some level we're tracking or whatever. 220 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:42,759 Speaker 4: Do you know if this has always been a bit 221 00:12:42,799 --> 00:12:46,200 of a rumor that goes around Williamsburg, because of course 222 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,320 Hinckley spends a lot of time here in Williamsburg. More so, 223 00:12:49,519 --> 00:12:54,080 now does Secret Service still keep track of John Hickley? 224 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:55,279 Speaker 5: I'm sure they do. 225 00:12:55,879 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 4: We've never been able to I've never been able to 226 00:12:57,679 --> 00:12:58,360 get information. 227 00:12:59,279 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 5: You won't get that confirmed, but I'm. 228 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 4: Sure that I wasn't sure if that was Is there 229 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,720 a Secret Service person on him at all times? 230 00:13:07,279 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 5: And I suspect that his release was not an arbitrary time. 231 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,600 I believe he would. I believed he would not be 232 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:20,600 released until Nancy Reagan died and after that, Oh. 233 00:13:20,159 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 4: Very interesting. 234 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,279 Speaker 2: What's sad then, is that James Brady has died. Yes, 235 00:13:24,799 --> 00:13:27,600 as well, and Kristin and I talked about this. You 236 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,080 could make a case that Hinckley is directly responsible for 237 00:13:31,159 --> 00:13:33,960 Jim Brady's untimely demise. 238 00:13:34,039 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 5: Yes, you could. The problem is, since he was found 239 00:13:36,639 --> 00:13:39,440 not guilty by reason of insanity, that would be a 240 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:41,639 very hard case to make up. 241 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 4: So what are the criteria required to find someone not 242 00:13:45,279 --> 00:13:47,879 guilty by reason of incisiony to said, have something to 243 00:13:47,879 --> 00:13:48,639 do with this. 244 00:13:48,799 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 5: This is very interesting and very relevant. Unfortunately, this really 245 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,679 goes back to the McNaughton case in Britain in the 246 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,960 late seventeen hundreds early eighteen hundred, Daniel McNaughton sometimes spelled McNaughten, 247 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,799 tried to had some grievances against the British government and 248 00:14:06,919 --> 00:14:11,480 tried to assassinate the Prime Minister, Sir Robert Peel, outside 249 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,240 the Prime Minister's official residence. He ended up not being 250 00:14:15,279 --> 00:14:18,519 able to assassinate Peeal, but was able but able, to 251 00:14:18,639 --> 00:14:22,879 kill his private secretary. He was put on trial and 252 00:14:23,039 --> 00:14:27,279 he was found essentially not guilty by reason of insanity. 253 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,559 The McNaughton rule, which came out of that in the 254 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:36,120 British common law, essentially said two things. Somebody is not 255 00:14:36,279 --> 00:14:41,279 guilty by reason of insanity if number one he does. 256 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:46,879 And we always use the term he because overwhelmingly the 257 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,559 people the offenders were talking about are male. The two 258 00:14:50,679 --> 00:14:54,960 issues are he does not know the difference between right 259 00:14:55,039 --> 00:15:00,200 and wrong and number two cannot conform his behavior to 260 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,720 the dictates of society. Now, there have been many reinterpretations 261 00:15:05,759 --> 00:15:10,320 since then, but that is essentially still the insanity defense. 262 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,080 Today we talk about a doctrine known as the policeman 263 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,639 at the elbow, and the doctrine states that if there 264 00:15:17,879 --> 00:15:22,240 is a uniformed policeman at the scene of the crime, 265 00:15:22,679 --> 00:15:25,960 and the criminal goes ahead and commits the crime anyway, 266 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,679 he is probably insane. If the uniformed police officer's presence 267 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,879 deters him from the crime, then he is probably not insane. 268 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,840 Now that's a very simple explanation. The next thing that 269 00:15:38,919 --> 00:15:42,080 always comes up in these discussions when I explain this 270 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,080 is they say, don't you have to be crazy to 271 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,000 kill somebody in cold blood? As opposed to self defense 272 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,120 or anything like that. And the answer is crazy doesn't. 273 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 2: Mean anything to the law. 274 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:01,399 Speaker 5: Is somebody mentally ill who does that? Most likely they are. 275 00:16:01,639 --> 00:16:04,879 I can't think of many cases where somebody would commit 276 00:16:05,039 --> 00:16:09,559 cold blooded murder or attempt to and not be mentally ill. However, 277 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,720 mental illness and insanity are two different things. Mental illness 278 00:16:14,879 --> 00:16:19,200 is a very vague psychiatric term. Insanity is a legal 279 00:16:19,279 --> 00:16:23,039 term which has to do with your ability to comport 280 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:27,559 yourself according to the dictates of society. In other words, 281 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:33,639 somebody who is delusional may or may not be insane. 282 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:38,039 Somebody who is hallucinatory most likely is. So. I would 283 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:42,720 submit to you that somebody like John Hinckley, while certainly 284 00:16:43,039 --> 00:16:47,320 mentally ill, I don't think he was insane by any 285 00:16:47,399 --> 00:16:50,559 stretch of the of a reasonable approach to the law. 286 00:16:51,279 --> 00:16:53,759 Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember reading that he was found to have 287 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:59,080 schizophrenia and major depressive disorder. So do you feel like 288 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,559 the insanity defense wasn't warranted there? 289 00:17:01,639 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 5: I absolutely feel it wasn't. I don't think I saw 290 00:17:04,519 --> 00:17:09,039 no indication then or now that he ever suffered from schizophrenia, 291 00:17:09,079 --> 00:17:13,720 which is a shattered personality. One hears voices, one has 292 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:19,079 delusions and sometimes hallucinations. He probably did have some kind 293 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,720 of depressive disorder, but that again does not conform to 294 00:17:23,799 --> 00:17:27,160 the definition of insanity. He knew right from wrong, he 295 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,759 was able to conform his behavior. Also, he planned this, 296 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,240 He knew exactly what he was doing. You could say 297 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,960 that there's some very irrational behavior. The idea that he 298 00:17:37,079 --> 00:17:42,000 was going to impress a beautiful famous actress into going 299 00:17:42,039 --> 00:17:45,480 off with him by killing the president. That's certainly i rational. 300 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,240 One could call it delusional, whatever you want to say, 301 00:17:48,799 --> 00:17:52,119 but that's not insane. He didn't have to do it, 302 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:52,960 and he knew it. 303 00:17:53,319 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 2: But many of us civilians used these terms interchangeably, don't 304 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:57,839 you think. 305 00:17:58,079 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 5: Right now, Look, we all use the term crazy, we 306 00:18:00,759 --> 00:18:03,839 say that's a crazy idea or whatever. But my point 307 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,920 is that insanity has, over the last three centuries had 308 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,640 a very specific legal connotation, and in my view, obviously 309 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,319 the jury disagreed with me. But in my view, John 310 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,559 Hinckley was not insane at the time, nor has he been. 311 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:24,359 I think it was obsessional. Certainly, he certainly had mental problems, 312 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:29,720 but those don't excuse what he did, particularly to Jim Brady. 313 00:18:30,039 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 4: So the more appropriate punishment in your view would have 314 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,079 been life in prison. Absolutely no, I tend to agree 315 00:18:36,079 --> 00:18:38,680 with you on that. So in two thousand and five 316 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,599 they started loosening restrictions on him at Saint Elizabeth, And 317 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:44,920 that was the first time that I remember, as a 318 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,680 citizen of Williamsburg hearing they're going to let John Hinckley 319 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:50,720 come home. They're going to let him visit his parents. 320 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:52,839 Do you And then just three weeks ago, as we 321 00:18:52,839 --> 00:18:55,000 said at the top of the pod, he was freed 322 00:18:55,039 --> 00:18:57,880 from all court oversight. Do you feel like that's the 323 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,000 right call to make? Should he be free? 324 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 5: What I think? I think the psychiatrists and the officials 325 00:19:05,039 --> 00:19:07,880 were going to bind because if he had been declared 326 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,079 not guilty by reason of insanity and he was no 327 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,079 longer insane, which I don't think he was to begin with, 328 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,119 what is your logic for holding him in prison? So 329 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,359 I think this was a miscarriage of justice to begin with. 330 00:19:23,759 --> 00:19:29,119 Had he been look Sirhan who assassinated Robert Kennedy certainly 331 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:33,960 had the same kind of mental instability as John Hinckley. 332 00:19:34,079 --> 00:19:37,640 But he was found sane and guilty and he's still 333 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,720 in prison, where he has been since spring of nineteen 334 00:19:40,839 --> 00:19:43,960 sixty eight. I don't have a good solution for what 335 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,319 you do with the John Hinckley. Now, had there been 336 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:51,160 what I would consider a reasonable jury verdict, I think 337 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,319 that he would still be in prison and it wouldn't 338 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,720 be an issue. Now. Let me say at the same time, 339 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,839 I have read the judge's instructions many times. They are 340 00:20:00,039 --> 00:20:04,880 so complicated and so convoluted based on both defense and prosecution. 341 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,839 But I would think a jury of layman would be 342 00:20:08,039 --> 00:20:10,960 very confused by this, and they probably gave him the 343 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,400 benefit of the doubt. I think a better case maybe 344 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,359 could have been made explaining just exactly what the insanity 345 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,920 defense is, because, as you both know from your own 346 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,359 research and criminology, the insanity defense doesn't work very often. 347 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,319 It's invoked a lot, but most juries are not willing 348 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,559 to let killers out on that basis, and they really 349 00:20:33,599 --> 00:20:37,359 worry that if you don't convict somebody, then it's an 350 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,240 open question about when they're going to be back on 351 00:20:39,279 --> 00:20:39,960 the street again. 352 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:44,519 Speaker 2: It feels like the holy Grail for a lot of defense. Oh. Sure, 353 00:20:44,559 --> 00:20:47,319 attorneys like they're going to try it, but they're not 354 00:20:47,559 --> 00:20:50,400 likely to succeed. And as you said a moment ago. 355 00:20:50,519 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 5: In our in my most recent book with John Douglas, 356 00:20:54,319 --> 00:20:58,480 When a Killer Calls about the Larry Jean Bell murdered 357 00:20:58,519 --> 00:21:02,400 case in South Carolin in the mid nineteen eighties. What 358 00:21:02,559 --> 00:21:07,200 this man did to these two victims, one seventeen year 359 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,400 old girl just graduating from high school and then two 360 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,440 weeks later a nine year old girl, both of whom 361 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:19,000 he abducted, sexually violated, and then killed in horrible fashion. 362 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,400 The defense was, okay, he did it. Clearly, this guy 363 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,799 is insane, and the way he was acting out in 364 00:21:24,839 --> 00:21:28,279 the court. But again, the prosecution was able to prove, 365 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,960 with John Douglas's help, that while this guy was bizarre, 366 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,359 while he was certainly mentally unstable, he knew exactly what 367 00:21:36,519 --> 00:21:39,319 he was doing. He planned it, he planned his escape, 368 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,680 he planned not getting caught, he hid the bodies, all 369 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,319 of these things. Again, we really, I can't emphasize this enough. 370 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:51,880 We have to make a distinction between mental illness and insanity, 371 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,440 and there was a lot of far. The illness itself 372 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:55,880 is not an excuse. 373 00:21:56,319 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 2: And when you see tons and tons of rational behavior 374 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,400 by the killer or killers, they're clearly an ability to 375 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,640 make decisions which will minimize the opportunity for them to 376 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:10,720 get caught. 377 00:22:10,279 --> 00:22:14,079 Speaker 5: I don't want to get really personal here, but whoever 378 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,720 it was who killed your sister, by the mere fact 379 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,720 that he was able to get away is not insane. 380 00:22:20,079 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 2: They're still wandering around years later. 381 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,079 Speaker 5: Was rational able to plan and carry out? 382 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 2: Is evil, no question about it. I also think sometimes 383 00:22:29,319 --> 00:22:33,279 jury's fear letting someone out. In other words, I think, 384 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,160 well they should. Yeah, on some level, you have to 385 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,279 say to yourself, if you're a citizen who's been chosen 386 00:22:39,319 --> 00:22:43,079 for a jury, after sitting through days, weeks, sometimes even 387 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,039 months worth a testimony, on some level I think the 388 00:22:46,079 --> 00:22:50,359 thought must cross the minds of every juror do you 389 00:22:50,759 --> 00:22:56,359 want this person back out in society with the opportunity 390 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,680 perhaps to re offend? And some of these people are 391 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,279 people that could easily cross over to whatever their darkest 392 00:23:04,279 --> 00:23:05,359 behaviors represent. 393 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:11,880 Speaker 5: Absolutely, and from my experience, juries take their responsibilities very seriously, 394 00:23:12,079 --> 00:23:17,000 particularly in capital cases or murder cases or violent crime 395 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,920 of any sort. I think they really do, and they 396 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,839 are reaware of victims and potential victims. So yeah, I 397 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:25,400 agree with it. 398 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,839 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 399 00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:36,319 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 400 00:23:36,319 --> 00:23:38,119 mindover Murder, you'd. 401 00:23:38,039 --> 00:23:40,559 Speaker 4: Mentioned Sarahan a couple of minutes ago, who, for the 402 00:23:40,599 --> 00:23:44,880 benefit of our listeners, assassinated Robert F. Kennedy in nineteen sixty. 403 00:23:44,519 --> 00:23:46,039 Speaker 5: Eight on blank range. 404 00:23:46,039 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 2: By the way, point. 405 00:23:47,519 --> 00:23:51,279 Speaker 4: Blank range, Yeah, is the only difference between his case 406 00:23:51,319 --> 00:23:54,039 and John Hinckley is the fact that he succeeded where 407 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:55,079 Hinckley fails. 408 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:56,839 Speaker 5: I think that's a large part of it. 409 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 4: Yes, do you feel like it would be appropriate to 410 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,319 let's heir han out of prison? This many years on? 411 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,640 I know Rfk's son even was saying, Hey, I think 412 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,400 it's time to let this guy out. Any thoughts on that. 413 00:24:08,799 --> 00:24:11,279 Speaker 5: Yeah, No, I would say you don't let him out, 414 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,920 or they may be a more glib way of putting 415 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,000 it is, yeah, let him out. When Robert Kennedy is 416 00:24:16,039 --> 00:24:19,680 brought back to life. This brings up a very interesting 417 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:25,519 and difficult philosophical point Kristin. There are traditionally three pieces 418 00:24:25,559 --> 00:24:30,480 of logic for imprisonment. One is rehabilitation, which we've all 419 00:24:30,519 --> 00:24:34,279 heard about. The other is punishment, which we all know about, 420 00:24:34,559 --> 00:24:37,240 and the third is simply warehousing. In other words, if 421 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,960 somebody is dangerous, you just have to keep them off 422 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:45,440 the street, and the emphasis on these three goals changes 423 00:24:45,519 --> 00:24:48,680 with the public opinion and how the crime rate and 424 00:24:48,759 --> 00:24:52,640 things like that. Rehabilitation is a nice idea when it 425 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,880 can be done. I would submit that almost no sexual 426 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,640 predators can be rehabilitated. That's my own opinion based on 427 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,960 my research and experience warehousing. I think that if you 428 00:25:04,039 --> 00:25:08,359 take somebody likes Sirhan, or let's say, the remaining members 429 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,599 of the Manson family, there is no need to wear 430 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,079 house them now. None of them are going to be 431 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,759 none of them are going to dangerous on any level. 432 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,039 They're all in their seventies at this point. So the 433 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,920 third element is punishment. And I would say with I 434 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,920 don't know about Sirhan, because he's now saying he doesn't 435 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,599 know whether he had committed the crime or not. But 436 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,000 the remaining members of the Manson family, they all understand 437 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,759 what they did. They have had forty years or more 438 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,880 to sometimes fifty years to reflect on what they did 439 00:25:43,279 --> 00:25:46,200 on that horrible two nights in the summer of nineteen 440 00:25:46,279 --> 00:25:50,160 sixty nine in Los Angeles. On the other hand, I've 441 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,440 studied the cases, I've seen the crime scene photos, I've 442 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,160 seen the horrible things that these people did, how they 443 00:25:58,519 --> 00:26:03,519 stabbed a nine month pregnant Sharon Tate to Debt wrote 444 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,880 on the walls with her blood, And some things just 445 00:26:08,039 --> 00:26:11,960 can't be forgiven. I'm afraid. And while I think that 446 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,519 these people all have understood the error of their ways, 447 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,960 I don't think they're dangerous anymore. I don't want to 448 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,359 let them out of prison because there are some things 449 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,119 that are just too horrible to forgive. If there is 450 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,200 an if there is an afterlife, then that's taken care 451 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,279 of in the next world. I don't think we have 452 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,880 the capacity or facility to take care of it in hours. 453 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,400 All we can do is balance the scales to the 454 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:44,119 extent that is humanly possible. No, I don't want Sarahan out. 455 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,160 I agree with Governor knew something, the Manson family members out. 456 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,079 And had John Hinckley been had John Hinckley been convicted 457 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,240 as I think he should have been, I think he 458 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,880 should have spent the rest of his life in prison, 459 00:26:57,079 --> 00:27:01,880 as should Mark, David Chapman and other assassin personalities. 460 00:27:02,319 --> 00:27:05,799 Speaker 2: So that just leads me back to Mark. How in 461 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:10,119 the world is John Hinckley Junior being allowed to wander 462 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,440 around Williamsburg, Virginia essentially unsupervised. 463 00:27:14,519 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't think there's a I would be very 464 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,880 surprised if the Secret Service is not keeping track of him, 465 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,480 at least on a surreptitious or unofficial basis, since he 466 00:27:25,599 --> 00:27:29,880 was declared not guilty with the caveat that he was 467 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,000 insane and he is no longer is. Since again, I 468 00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:35,400 think he no longer he never was. I don't know 469 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,039 what else you can do. If it were me and 470 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:39,720 he Jaywalk, I'd pick him up. 471 00:27:40,279 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 2: The whole thing's preposterous, just to review, he wounded two 472 00:27:43,759 --> 00:27:47,920 police officers, He shot and nearly killed President Reagan, a 473 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,000 sitting president. He paralyzed Jim Brady, a key member of 474 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,160 the president's staff, And as we discussed a few minutes ago, 475 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,559 I definitely believe, as a big fan of Jim and 476 00:27:58,599 --> 00:28:03,119 Sarah Brady's, that he shortened mister Brady's life questionably. 477 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 5: Not only that, but I happen to know from some 478 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,680 inside sources how hard and how difficult Jim's life was 479 00:28:09,799 --> 00:28:12,599 after that. The only person I've talked to about this 480 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,279 in the Reagan family is their daughter Patty, and I 481 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,400 know she certainly doesn't think he should have been led 482 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,680 off with an insanity, pleat and eventually let out. And 483 00:28:22,759 --> 00:28:25,440 I know she noted that how this affected her mother 484 00:28:25,519 --> 00:28:26,559 for the rest of her life. 485 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it's just the thing of nightmare. And 486 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,039 Kristin and I talk about this, and Kristin keeps thinking 487 00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:35,599 she's going to run into Hinckley at one of the 488 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,279 area bookstores that she frequents. 489 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 4: Because he frequents there too. People actually keep tabs on 490 00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:42,920 where does this guy go? We know he goes to 491 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,200 Sweet Frog Dantique's Market, the bookstore that I like. 492 00:28:46,359 --> 00:28:49,039 Speaker 5: And then the other issue is he's going on this 493 00:28:49,319 --> 00:28:53,319 music tour, this concert tour, and I understand he's selling 494 00:28:53,359 --> 00:28:57,000 out in some places. I think I'm enough of a 495 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,519 I'm enough of a First Amendment. And since he's not 496 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,119 actually doing things having to do with the assassination the 497 00:29:06,119 --> 00:29:08,960 Son of Sam, laws don't apply to him. I really 498 00:29:09,039 --> 00:29:12,400 question anybody who would pay money to see this free. Yeah. 499 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 4: That that for context for any of our listeners who 500 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,160 aren't aware. A federal judge did rule in twenty twenty 501 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,559 that John Hinckley could showcase and market his artwork, his writing, 502 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,799 which is bad, and his music, which is not great either, 503 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,039 under his own name. He has a YouTube channel where 504 00:29:29,119 --> 00:29:32,559 he posts videos of himself performing his original songs and 505 00:29:32,599 --> 00:29:36,279 then covers of other songs. He is selling out concert halls, 506 00:29:36,279 --> 00:29:39,960 although his Brooklyn concert recently had to be canceled due 507 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,759 to security concerns. Should he be allowed to profit from 508 00:29:43,799 --> 00:29:44,960 his artwork in his music? 509 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,519 Speaker 5: Again, many states, and I don't know if the District 510 00:29:48,599 --> 00:29:51,799 of Columbia or Virginia are among them, have what's called 511 00:29:51,839 --> 00:29:56,160 son of Sam laws say a criminal cannot convicted criminal 512 00:29:56,519 --> 00:30:00,920 cannot profit by anything having to do with his crime. 513 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:05,039 Since my understanding is that for these songs or artwork 514 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,039 don't have to do directly with the attempted assassination of 515 00:30:09,319 --> 00:30:13,119 Ronald Reagan and the wounding of Jim Brady and several others, 516 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,480 that this would not fit under the son of Sam rules. 517 00:30:16,519 --> 00:30:18,960 So yeah, I think this is one of those things 518 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,240 where I would absolutely defend his right to do this, 519 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:29,160 and I would just as vociferously condemn anybody who supports it. 520 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,640 I guess that's a little weird, but that's how I feel. 521 00:30:31,839 --> 00:30:35,119 Speaker 2: I just find the whole thing so infuriating. 522 00:30:35,279 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 5: The mate is insane, a word that would maybe come 523 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:38,799 to mind. 524 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,799 Speaker 2: But here we go again, talking about civilians. 525 00:30:41,839 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 5: It's certainly crazy. 526 00:30:43,079 --> 00:30:47,839 Speaker 2: It is crazy, and it's offensive and the idea of it. 527 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 5: Unfortunately someone Fortunately in our country, I haven't decided which 528 00:30:53,039 --> 00:30:54,559 being offensive is not a crime. 529 00:30:55,559 --> 00:30:58,559 Speaker 2: I'm afraid not, but wow, this. 530 00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:01,839 Speaker 5: But not a crime against the state. 531 00:31:02,119 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 2: It would be great if the Secret Service is keeping 532 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,440 an eye on him and just one little thing. 533 00:31:09,279 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 5: As I say, if I were the police chief of Williamsburg, 534 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,599 I would be looking out every time he steps off 535 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:15,000 the curve. 536 00:31:16,519 --> 00:31:18,799 Speaker 4: It is really something else. What a lot of people 537 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,000 may not know about Hinckley is that he does have 538 00:31:21,079 --> 00:31:25,160 tremendous financial resources at his disposal. His family has millions 539 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:25,799 of dollars. 540 00:31:26,359 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 2: Oh where does that money come from? Do you know? 541 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:30,359 Speaker 4: Had they ran an energy company? 542 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 2: Yeah? 543 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 5: And I suspect Kristen that a lot of the reason 544 00:31:35,039 --> 00:31:37,000 that he was able to get off with an insanity 545 00:31:37,039 --> 00:31:40,279 defense was his family's financial resource. 546 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 2: Best lawyer's money can buy that sort of thing. 547 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 5: He certainly wasn't dependent on a public defender who had 548 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:46,799 thirty other cases. 549 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 2: Right, And it's a shame the prosecutors couldn't have rammed 550 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,079 home and appropriate guilty verdict because we all saw what 551 00:31:57,319 --> 00:32:00,200 happened there. It was on National teleg I. 552 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,519 Speaker 5: Guess in case I haven't completely answered your question from before. 553 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,559 Do I think he's dangerous? Probably not, although I wouldn't 554 00:32:07,599 --> 00:32:09,319 be I wouldn't be sure of it, but I think 555 00:32:09,359 --> 00:32:12,279 probably not. Is he despicable? Absolutely well? 556 00:32:12,279 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 2: And the punishment of that that troitad that you mentioned, 557 00:32:16,119 --> 00:32:21,279 the three legged stool of incarceration, punishment is a valid 558 00:32:21,559 --> 00:32:25,359 end in terms of if you've done something particularly heinous, 559 00:32:25,599 --> 00:32:27,920 which John jul has done well. 560 00:32:28,319 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 5: This is an attempt, so far as is humanly possible 561 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,039 in the case of murder or attempted murder or malicious wounding, 562 00:32:36,319 --> 00:32:39,400 to balance the scales. We can't do it the way 563 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,720 we'd like to. We can't bring the dead back to 564 00:32:41,839 --> 00:32:44,720 life or really balance the scales. But this is an 565 00:32:44,759 --> 00:32:48,160 attempt at proportionality. And I would submit to you that 566 00:32:48,279 --> 00:32:51,519 if you kill somebody, anything short of the death penalty 567 00:32:51,839 --> 00:32:54,279 is disproportionate in your favor. 568 00:32:54,559 --> 00:32:55,079 Speaker 4: I like that. 569 00:32:55,599 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 5: Oh, but I just made it off. 570 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,799 Speaker 2: Okay. This may be referred to as the Acre formula 571 00:33:01,039 --> 00:33:03,920 down there. Roaw enough, I'm still shocked when people get 572 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,480 out of jail twenty or twenty five years having been 573 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,960 found guilty. In some examples of murder. They don't even 574 00:33:11,039 --> 00:33:14,359 serve life without parole. They a quarter of a century, 575 00:33:14,519 --> 00:33:17,839 which admittedly is a long time. And as someone who's 576 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,960 never been incarcerated, well. 577 00:33:19,839 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 5: And let me clear the air here, I think there 578 00:33:22,319 --> 00:33:26,960 are types of murder, specifically felony murder, where a murder 579 00:33:27,039 --> 00:33:30,000 is committed in the commission of another crime, like a 580 00:33:30,079 --> 00:33:33,920 robbery or something where things happened very quickly. There may 581 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,200 not have been any intent to kill or even harm. 582 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,839 Somebody used a gun, they panicked whatever. I think those 583 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,799 people oftentimes can be rehabilitated. I think they should serve 584 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,839 long sentences, and I think their lives should certainly be altered, 585 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,240 and there should be some some kind of attempt at 586 00:33:51,319 --> 00:33:54,920 restorative justice. But I would submit that people like that 587 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,119 you don't have to keep them in prison forever. Twenty 588 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,480 years or whatever is certainly enough time. But the people 589 00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:05,880 who intend to kill, who go about it in a planned, 590 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,719 methodical way, who are sexual predators, who do it just 591 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:14,559 for their own satisfaction, if you will, their own sexual 592 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:18,320 needs or desires, these kind of people should never be 593 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,559 let out on the street again under any circumstances. 594 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,519 Speaker 2: This isn't somebody who let me to say. 595 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 5: One more thing we've written about in our book Obsession. 596 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,840 We wrote about the case of a twenty year old 597 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,920 woman named Stephanie Schmidt in Kansas who shortly before her 598 00:34:33,079 --> 00:34:37,960 twenty first birthday was abducted and raped and murdered by 599 00:34:38,039 --> 00:34:41,599 a co worker who with the parole board. Her parole 600 00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:44,639 officer had not wanted to let anybody know what his 601 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:50,320 previous crime was, which was aggravated sexual assault with a knife. Now, 602 00:34:50,559 --> 00:34:53,079 he I think had been sentenced to twenty five years. 603 00:34:53,119 --> 00:34:56,239 He was let out in about ten or twelve or fifteen, 604 00:34:56,519 --> 00:35:00,119 and what he learned from being in prison was you're 605 00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:02,239 going to commit this kind of crime again. You don't 606 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,920 leave any witnesses to put you back in prison. So 607 00:35:06,119 --> 00:35:09,280 now we all know the formulation, which I believe originally 608 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,920 came from the Reverend Increase Mather back in pre colonial times, 609 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,679 about it's better to let one hundred guilty men go 610 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,639 free to confit one innocent man. We all agree with that, 611 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,960 and as we should, but let's turn. 612 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:24,760 Speaker 2: That on its head. 613 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 5: If you have one hundred sexual predators, violent sexual predators 614 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,719 who've been incarcerated, and you're going to let them out 615 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:38,599 on parole, what's your acceptable rate of failure one hundred people? 616 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,559 How many? What a percentage are you willing to concede? Okay, 617 00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:45,920 they may go on to commit the same kind of 618 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,559 crime or worse again, is it five percent? Is it 619 00:35:51,159 --> 00:35:55,840 three percent? Is it one percent? I would submit to 620 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,719 you that my acceptable rate of failure is zero percent. 621 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,039 I'm very hesitant to let these kind of guys out 622 00:36:03,039 --> 00:36:03,920 of prison early. 623 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 2: I'm at zero. Kristin, Where are you on that? 624 00:36:06,679 --> 00:36:07,760 Speaker 4: I'm at zero? Yeah? 625 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:13,559 Speaker 5: Absolutely, Because here's another thing that directly affects Kristin in 626 00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:15,800 a way that I'll explain in a minute. People ask 627 00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:19,280 John Douglas, can can you tell who is going to 628 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,039 grow up to be a serial killer? And he says, no, 629 00:36:22,159 --> 00:36:23,760 I can't tell you who's going to grow up to 630 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:25,960 be a serial killer. But I can tell you I 631 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,320 can tell you by looking at kids whether they're going 632 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,920 to grow up to have real problems with anger and 633 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,360 aggression and all of that. And he said, but so 634 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:35,320 can any good teacher. 635 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,679 Speaker 4: Yeah, now I agree. We ended up actually having a 636 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,559 conversation very interestingly at the end of the year about 637 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,119 kids that we had taught who went on to become criminals. 638 00:36:43,599 --> 00:36:45,920 If you've been in the profession long enough, you do 639 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:47,960 invariably have something how disturbing. 640 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 5: Yeah, disturbing but disturbing but not surprising. 641 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,039 Speaker 2: And yet at the same time, we can't incarcerate those 642 00:36:54,159 --> 00:36:58,440 kids as they're finishing up their year with you or whatever. 643 00:36:58,679 --> 00:37:01,679 Speaker 5: Now, you try to intervene as best you can, but 644 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,119 often there's a lot of pushback to try from parents 645 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,719 or other people who say you're stigmatizing them or whatever. 646 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 4: The problem, absolutely it is. I want to make sure 647 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,039 we get in a plug for at least one of 648 00:37:13,079 --> 00:37:16,559 your books. If you want to read more about John Hinckley, Mark, 649 00:37:16,639 --> 00:37:20,559 David Chapman, Charles Whitman, and other shooters, there is a 650 00:37:20,679 --> 00:37:23,960 chapter in The Anatomy of Motive by John Douglas and 651 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,079 Markole Shaker that covers all of that information. And Mark, 652 00:37:28,119 --> 00:37:29,880 I know you said that, there is a chapter in 653 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:31,679 Obsession as well that covers that. 654 00:37:31,679 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 5: It covers the Stephanie Schmidt case. But also I would 655 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,800 say our book The Killer's Shadow talks about Joseph Paul Franklin, 656 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,519 who was, as far as we know, the first racist, 657 00:37:41,559 --> 00:37:46,840 anti Semitic serial killer and definitely an assassin personality. Yeah, 658 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,719 I think you can. You'll get a lot of insight 659 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,519 about about this kind of personality through the Killer's Shadow. 660 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,960 And I know the latest book which we mentioned earlier 661 00:37:56,079 --> 00:38:00,239 when the Killer Calls, also a very moving, tragic story, 662 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:01,599 but an important one. 663 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,079 Speaker 4: I think that was one of your best ones. Actually, 664 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,800 thank you, And of course we did cover that episode 665 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:08,599 earlier in this year, which we will make. 666 00:38:08,519 --> 00:38:10,199 Speaker 5: Sure we listen to the podcast again. 667 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,280 Speaker 2: Everybody, run it again, absolutely, and Mark, I know it's 668 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,800 always hard to predict when you've got multiple projects in development, 669 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,599 but what do you think the next book to be 670 00:38:20,679 --> 00:38:21,360 released will be? 671 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 5: Gosh, I really don't know, but I'll confess something here. 672 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,239 What I'd really like to do in my old age 673 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,280 here is I'd like to go back to novel writing 674 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,599 and see if I can still do it. Really quite 675 00:38:32,599 --> 00:38:34,679 a while since I've written a novel, but I've got 676 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,519 three ideas which I think are pretty compelling, and if 677 00:38:38,519 --> 00:38:40,559 I get time, i'd really like to go back to 678 00:38:40,599 --> 00:38:42,039 see if I can go back to fiction. 679 00:38:42,559 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 4: Our guest today is then Mark Allshaker. Mark, thank you 680 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,719 so much for joining us. As always, it's a pleasure. 681 00:38:48,639 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 5: And always it's a pleasure on this end too. 682 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,519 Speaker 4: Kristen, thank you very much. That's going to do it 683 00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:55,000 for this episode of My Never Murder. We'll see you 684 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:55,519 next time. 685 00:39:04,639 --> 00:39:08,119 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 686 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:09,679 Another Dog Productions. 687 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,559 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 688 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,320 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 689 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,039 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 690 00:39:19,559 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 691 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,400 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 692 00:39:27,599 --> 00:39:30,199 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 693 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,079 Murders on Facebook. 694 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 695 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:36,559 Bill Thomas five six. 696 00:39:37,039 --> 00:39:40,119 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder 697 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:01,159 Speaker 4: At