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Every 30 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:29.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 31 00:01:29.400 --> 00:01:33.920 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 32 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:36.760 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 33 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:51.959 Good Evening, Ron Crisp invites the reader to follow him 34 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:55.879 through his investigation of the Leslie Barry murder, the trial 35 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:59.239 of Art and Zuris for the murder, the evidence that 36 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:03.040 led him to his three suspects, how his investigation of 37 00:02:03.079 --> 00:02:06.079 the Barry murder led him to the defense of Angelo 38 00:02:06.120 --> 00:02:09.800 Bono in the Hillside strangler case, and what happened in 39 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:12.479 his personal life as a result of his attempts to 40 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:17.400 expose the systemic cover up in California versus Angelo Bono. 41 00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:20.879 The single most important clue in the case came from 42 00:02:20.919 --> 00:02:23.479 the statement of a fourteen year old boy on the 43 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:27.759 night of the Bury murder. Crisp wasn't at the crime 44 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:30.120 scene that night, but would read the statement in police 45 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:33.319 reports a week and a half later when he read it, 46 00:02:33.560 --> 00:02:36.039 he was astonished that the police seemed to be showing 47 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:39.680 no interest in this remarkable sixteen word statement from a 48 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:43.599 friend of the victim. The cops ignoring evidence that could 49 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:46.120 help crack a case that had baffled them for eighteen 50 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:49.319 months caused Crisp to wonder if they were so stupid 51 00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:52.240 they couldn't connect these two simple dots, or if something 52 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:56.280 more sinister was going on. A dozen books or more 53 00:02:56.280 --> 00:02:59.879 have been written about the Hillside Strangler case. Taking a 54 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:02.879 q from the books, screenwriters have used the case in 55 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:05.639 movies and TV cop shows to lend an air of 56 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:10.560 credibility to their fictitious storylines. However, these movies and cop 57 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:13.919 shows have kept the myth alive that Kenneth Bianchi and 58 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:20.039 Angelo Bono were the Hillside Stranglers. Author Ron Crisp reduced 59 00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:22.520 the statement by the fourteen year old boy to four 60 00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:26.719 words and made it the title of his book. The 61 00:03:26.759 --> 00:03:29.879 book we featuring this evening is a Crossing of Paths, 62 00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:34.960 the true untold story of the Hillside Strangler Case, with 63 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:41.280 my special guest, Private eye and author Ron Crisp. Welcome 64 00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:44.120 to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. 65 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:49.319 Ron Crisp, thank you for having me. Dan, thank you 66 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:53.960 very much. Very incredible assertions and contention that you have 67 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:57.199 in this book regarding the Hillside Stranglers. 68 00:03:58.520 --> 00:03:59.800 Well, you opened the book. 69 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:07.800 Absolutely. You opened this book in South Pasadena, California. It's 70 00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:11.479 a little place about twenty five thousand, you write it 71 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:16.360 lies between Pasadena and Los Angeles in Los Angeles County. 72 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:21.199 You had a business Crisp and Marley you call a 73 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:24.959 legal research and inquiry, and you had some dealings with 74 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:28.839 a Mitch Millino. Tell us a little bit about this 75 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:34.560 work that you were doing in South Pasadena and your 76 00:04:34.600 --> 00:04:37.360 experience with Mitch Millino and the call that came that 77 00:04:37.480 --> 00:04:41.920 one day from Mitch Millino. What was the gist of 78 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:44.839 what Mitch Millino had to say and what was he 79 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:47.399 talking about specifically that day. 80 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:52.360 Yeah, Well, my office was at the Old Green Hotel 81 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:56.360 in Pasadena, and I've done a lot of work for 82 00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:02.399 probably i don't know, twenty five maybe thirty regular lawyers 83 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:09.000 and overall probably a couple of hundred lawyers around Los Angeles, 84 00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:12.720 and Mitch was one of those lawyers. He calls me 85 00:05:12.759 --> 00:05:16.480 one day and he wants to know if I've ever 86 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:20.959 handled any criminal cases. I told him I've done a 87 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:24.959 few drug cases, but nothing. Really. Why was he asking, 88 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:27.319 he said, law He wanted to know if I had 89 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:30.120 heard about the murder of the twelve year old girl 90 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:36.240 in South Pasadena. I said, well, I heard about it 91 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:39.920 over the weekend. Yeah, I was at a party and 92 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:45.959 the host hostess mentioned it and said maybe it was 93 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:50.600 the hillside train of the case. I just thought it 94 00:05:50.680 --> 00:05:56.319 was paranoia. Anyway, Mitch says, well, I just got a 95 00:05:56.360 --> 00:06:00.920 call from the father of the apartment manager at the 96 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:05.480 complex where she was murdered, and he says his son 97 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:09.319 is a suspect and he wants to hire me, retain 98 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:16.439 my services to represent him. And so, uh, Mitch said, 99 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:19.920 you know, I kind of told him, well, you know, 100 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:24.560 I just wrapped up an interesting case where I found 101 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:27.639 a horse. And Mitch went on to brag about, uh, 102 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:31.439 some guy that he got off for assaulting a police 103 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:39.759 officer over in Glendia, and so we we we changed 104 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:42.720 stories there for a little bit, and then he said, well, 105 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:48.519 here's what I'm going to do. I'm gonna charge him 106 00:06:48.519 --> 00:06:51.680 an extra one thousand dollars on the retainer and and 107 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:55.759 that that's that's the money that I will delegate to you, 108 00:06:56.720 --> 00:07:02.519 and I said that, yeah, that's fine. So anyway, about 109 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:05.480 a week and a half later, I get a call 110 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:13.199 from Mitch saying that Art has been arrested. And but 111 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:16.079 Mitchell told me it, told me he wanted me to 112 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:19.759 start a discrete investigation. But you know, there's no such 113 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:22.639 thing as a discrete investigation. When you're talking about a 114 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:26.720 murder case, you know everybody's going to talk about it. 115 00:07:26.759 --> 00:07:29.480 So you know you can't go around asking questions unless 116 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:32.439 you want to tip the other side off that you 117 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:36.639 know that you're concerned they're going to make an arrest. 118 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:41.360 So they did. They had called Art and told him 119 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:44.879 to come down from one last interview. He had already 120 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:51.319 given him two very very lengthy interviews, like I think 121 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:53.759 the first one was fourteen hours, the second one was 122 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:56.959 something like sixteen hours. They kept him under the lights 123 00:07:57.439 --> 00:08:02.000 and grilled, and so they had called him for one 124 00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:06.000 last interview, and we'd already told him Mitch and told him, 125 00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:09.199 I told him, don't talk to the police anymore. They're 126 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:12.560 not looking at anybody but you. You're the I don't 127 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:15.959 know why you're the prime suspect, but you're the prime suspect, 128 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:19.839 so don't talk to the police. But they called him 129 00:08:19.879 --> 00:08:22.800 and he said, well, I have a lawyer. He told 130 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:29.199 the police, well, I have a lawyer. But h and 131 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:31.800 wanted to know if he should bring the lawyer with him, 132 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:35.279 and he was talking to Beck and Beck says, well, 133 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:40.120 this is a deputy Beck. He says, well, you can bring 134 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:42.159 your lawyer if you want. You certainly have the right 135 00:08:42.200 --> 00:08:45.480 to do that. You we readue your rights. You signed 136 00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:50.919 the Miranda card, so you can bring a lawyer if 137 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:53.440 you want. But you know, we're just going to ask 138 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:56.240 you a few simple questions, you know, just a few 139 00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:01.240 follow up questions. Uh, you know, uh uh. And so 140 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:04.320 Arte said, okay, we'll come down. So someone his wife 141 00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:09.320 went down there, and they not more than two minutes 142 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:12.039 ended the interview. They put him under arrest for the 143 00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:13.279 murder of Leslie Berry. 144 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:18.440 Right now, you talk about the police, By the time 145 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:21.639 you got involved in Mitch got involved, he had already, 146 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:26.200 like you say, judiced himself to two interviews with police. 147 00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:31.279 And also in those interviews there was reason the reason 148 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:36.639 why Art was accused was he was, along with his wife, 149 00:09:36.679 --> 00:09:40.840 the apartment manager of these two buildings four hundred Monterey 150 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:44.440 Road and four four hundred and six Monterey Road, and 151 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:50.519 also they discovered that there was that obviously Leslie and 152 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:54.519 the family, Denise and Art and his family knew Leslie. 153 00:09:54.559 --> 00:10:00.480 Leslie had also babysat for the family, and according to Art, 154 00:10:00.759 --> 00:10:02.759 he had was one of the last people, if not 155 00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:05.480 the last person to see Leslie alive, according to the 156 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:13.480 police timeline. In further questioning Art again, I guess if 157 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:17.320 he had a more guilty mindset, he would have always 158 00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:20.480 and then kept his mouth shut. But he was forthcoming 159 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:25.639 and talked about what he said was innocent contact with Leslie, 160 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:30.039 like touching her butting breasts and joking that she needed 161 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:33.320 a bra and patting her butt. But he said he 162 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:35.159 did this in front of his wife, and his wife 163 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:38.399 laughed and there was nothing to it. So you can 164 00:10:38.519 --> 00:10:42.840 understand why the police, at least without having any evidence, 165 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:51.120 without having the scene, this crime scene examined yet by forensics, 166 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:55.080 that they thought they had Kushner and Beck thought they 167 00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:57.639 had a great suspect in Art and Zuris. 168 00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:02.600 I'm not correct, Yeah, yeah, that's right. And Art did 169 00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:07.159 a lot of He's what you know, most of us 170 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:10.879 would think, which was pretty bizarre behavior. You know, like 171 00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:14.360 like going back while the cops were there investigating the 172 00:11:14.919 --> 00:11:20.279 crime scene. He went inside, uh the apartment and they 173 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:26.120 had to chase him off, and then uh before he 174 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:30.799 was arrested. Uh, him and his wife went back, opened 175 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:35.000 the open the user path, He opened the apartment, and 176 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:38.639 they went in and got a photograph. It was just 177 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:42.840 a regular you know, school photograph that she'd promised to 178 00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:48.639 give him, uh before she was murdered. And uh, so 179 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:52.039 you know, they did stuff like that. You know, the 180 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:55.279 cops said, you can't go back, and that's a crime scene. 181 00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:58.919 You can't go back into a crime scene. And so 182 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:02.960 but he did it. And you know, all of this 183 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:09.639 behavior kind of brought attention to him as a suspect. 184 00:12:10.759 --> 00:12:14.200 The crime itself. You'd take us back in your investigation 185 00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:18.399 that there was a certain timeline that the police subscribed to. 186 00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:24.000 There was a Leslie was home that day. Her mother knew. 187 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:25.840 She had asked to stay home because she said she 188 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:28.320 was sick. Her mother knew she wasn't sick, but let 189 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:31.879 her stay home anyway. One of the conditions was that 190 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:35.679 she was supposed to do some laundry and she got 191 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:38.240 a call around four point thirty from her mother and saying, 192 00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:40.840 did you get that laundry done? And she said, well, no, 193 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:44.759 because Art using the dryer as well, she used as 194 00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:47.080 an excuse, but she just hadn't remembered, and she'd been 195 00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:49.600 on the phone with her friend Sean Hagen, her best 196 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:53.159 friend in the world, and then at some point her 197 00:12:53.159 --> 00:13:00.360 friend Lisa Balatore called. Right now in terms of Art 198 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:05.000 and zus he saw her that day because as you write, 199 00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:08.399 the laundry room is next door, in the close proximity 200 00:13:08.440 --> 00:13:10.679 to the manager's office where he is in number two. 201 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:15.840 He looked inside and saw that Leslie was putting washing 202 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:19.159 and close in the washer. Now, he tried to joke 203 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:20.639 with her, but he saw she was in a bad 204 00:13:20.679 --> 00:13:22.639 mood and he saw that as well, I'm not going 205 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:26.399 to talk to her. And there's another laundry at four 206 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:28.559 oh six, so he knew he could take his clothes 207 00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:32.080 there and not get in her way, according to him. 208 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:36.840 So now, according to the mother, she called at four 209 00:13:36.840 --> 00:13:39.120 point thirty. The mother was supposed to be back at 210 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:42.360 five o'clock. So she said, I'll be back shortly after five, 211 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:46.320 meaning she would normally come home about five ten, and 212 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:52.240 she did. Right now, now, tell us what the mother 213 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:53.240 a investigation. 214 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:59.440 As part of my investigation, I also drove from where 215 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:02.799 a few works to her house and timed it, and 216 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:05.440 it turned out to be about seven minutes a seven 217 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:09.000 minute drive from where she worked, right, And the timeline 218 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:13.200 was extremely important and that's why we were establishing. 219 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:20.679 Now in that timeline, there was the phone call from 220 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:24.200 Lisa Bellatori. Now you talk about this, and this is 221 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:28.480 a very vivid scene in this book. She's talking to 222 00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:31.799 her friend. She has to call in the bedroom because 223 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:34.440 the phone is in the bedroom and from the bedroom 224 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:37.399 can't see the front Yeah, and she's so she can't 225 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:40.000 see from her mother's bedroom the front door of the apartment. 226 00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:43.440 But she's expecting her mother home. Now she's talking to 227 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:46.480 Lisa when she's probably supposed to be doing something else 228 00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:51.320 like the laundry, and doesn't realize the time. So what 229 00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:55.200 happens in that phone call when she's talking to Lisa Bellatori? 230 00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:59.960 What what is she? What happens around say five o'clock 231 00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:01.279 during this phone call? 232 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:08.600 Yeah, yeah, it's about well h as close as we 233 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:14.360 could figure out, uh, based upon Lisa Valatori's statement, and 234 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:18.039 I also asked her her her dad run Bellati, who 235 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:20.720 was a swim coach at U C l A. I 236 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:27.960 asked him if if if I could see the phone 237 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:33.600 bill for that that month, so I could have some 238 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:39.360 physical evidence, some physical idea about you know, Lisa's memory 239 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:45.759 and stuff. And so, uh, she said that she had 240 00:15:45.799 --> 00:15:52.600 remembered when she talked to Leslie by ah By a 241 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:55.360 telephone call she had had with her mother who lived 242 00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:58.200 down San Diego. Well, that's a long distance call, so 243 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:00.720 it's going to show up on the on the phone bill, right, 244 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:05.960 So so they provided me with the phone bill, and yeah, 245 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:09.399 I could see there was there was actually two phone 246 00:16:09.399 --> 00:16:11.799 calls that I guess she had forgotten about one of them. 247 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:14.960 But the last phone call was the one she was 248 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:21.639 referring to in establishing her memory. And the phone call 249 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:28.960 was that something like uh four forty five or something 250 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:32.720 something of that nature, four forty six, something like that, 251 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:35.960 and it was like a three minute phone call. And 252 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:40.759 so we established that the timeline of that phone call 253 00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:44.039 between her and Leslie Berry had to have been you know, 254 00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:50.279 close to about uh five minutes to five. And of 255 00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:57.720 course this also was corroborated by by the babysitter who 256 00:16:57.799 --> 00:16:59.519 was trying to get her off the phone to get 257 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:05.400 take her to So, yeah, the timeline on that end 258 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:14.400 is pretty firmed up. You talk about it, Yeah, go ahead, sorry. 259 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:17.000 You talk about Ana Barry. Her mother coming home out 260 00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:20.720 around five ten, and she goes to the carport and 261 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:24.000 she opens the door and assumes for some reason this 262 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:27.759 is odd, but she assumes her daughter because everything's dark 263 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:30.839 in the apartment. She assumes her her daughter must be sleeping. 264 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:33.359 Well that's very soon after this phone call, but she 265 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:35.119 must be sleeping or in the laundry room. But her 266 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:39.200 mother doesn't go inside the apartment per se. She just 267 00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:41.839 goes to get the mail. So she goes to get 268 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:43.079 the mail, comes back. 269 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:47.799 She actually did go inside the apartment. She put her 270 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:54.720 she put her keys on her first on the kitchen table, 271 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:57.519 and then she left the apartment. She didn't check on 272 00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:02.400 her daughter. There wasn't anything unusual going on that she noticed. 273 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.799 Girls she would have probably you know, responded to her, 274 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:09.000 reacted to it. So she goes to the front of 275 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:12.920 the apartment building and gets gets her mail, which was 276 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:15.720 right across from the laundry room by the way, And 277 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:25.039 then when she comes back, that's when she she as 278 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:29.839 soon as she opened the front door, she realized that 279 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:32.480 the door to her daughter's bedroom, which you could see 280 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:35.240 that was a straight shot from the front door to 281 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:39.720 the to Leslie's bedroom was a straight shot, so you 282 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:46.119 could see that. And she noticed that the door was 283 00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:50.400 open about I don't know, fourteen fifteen sixteen inches something 284 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:53.000 like that, and that it was totally dark in the 285 00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:56.519 room and that except for the flickering light of the 286 00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:01.440 TV set, and the TV set was up. Really, so 287 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:05.799 she went in there, went went to her daughter's bedroom 288 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:12.079 immediately and and pushed the pushed on the door. She 289 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:15.319 was just going to tell her to turn the TV down. Uh, 290 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:20.880 and the door hit something and she realized that it 291 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.079 was the body and the body of her daughter. 292 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:28.480 Yeah, you're right, that she was still warm. The mother 293 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:33.279 went right on the ground and start performing CPR on her. Uh. 294 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:36.000 There was no response initially with a couple of minutes 295 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:39.000 of doing that, so she called nine one one. She 296 00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:42.960 continued the CPR till the paramedics arrived about three minutes later, 297 00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:45.839 so they were there pretty quick. What she did notice 298 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:50.960 right away, the mother was, Uh, this electrical cord. We 299 00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:54.960 what we didn't mention There was electrical cord around Leslie's neck. 300 00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:57.759 The mother. It was super tight. She couldn't get it off. 301 00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:00.799 She ran and got scissors and cut the the electrical 302 00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:03.079 court off first to pardon me, this is what she 303 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:06.559 did in this panic. She still had this state of 304 00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:09.279 mind to be able to do this and did the CPR, 305 00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:11.559 and then they took her to the hospital and she 306 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:12.279 was still alive. 307 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.079 Now, well her body was warm anyway. 308 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:21.559 Yes, well she's still alive. As you write that there 309 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:26.680 isn't this isn't a homicide investigation till later. So initially 310 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:32.599 she's still alive. So as we know, now, as you 311 00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:36.319 find out that the crime scene was compromised by medical 312 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:42.599 paramedics and by South Pasadena police officers. So there's medical 313 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.200 rappers and there is people that brought things into the scene, 314 00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:49.240 into the crime scene and out. And then you also 315 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:54.519 write that the surrounding area was not contained and cordoned off, 316 00:20:54.599 --> 00:21:01.599 so a compromised crime scene initially. So now when you 317 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:03.680 looked at when you finally got to look at the 318 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:06.559 crime scene yourself, what are the kind of things that 319 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:11.880 you noticed and you theorized about. Because Kushner, Detective Kushner 320 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:16.240 felt that that art or a pardon me, not art, well, 321 00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:18.559 they felt it was art but that the killer was 322 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:21.519 still in the apartment when the mother came home, when 323 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:23.759 Ainta Barry came home, that he was still in the apartment, 324 00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:26.000 and so that while she went to get the mail. 325 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:31.000 If they kept with this assumption, then he only had 326 00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:34.400 one particular route that he could go. Tell us a 327 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:37.079 little bit about what you found and what you thought 328 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:42.720 and what you found at that crime scene with your partner, 329 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:43.599 Mark Sutherland. 330 00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:49.720 Yeah, it was really it was really kind of strange 331 00:21:49.839 --> 00:22:00.839 because Leslie's apartment, the Portcure apartment, kind of straddled a 332 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:06.240 tunnel that led into the carpoard area and went underneath 333 00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:11.279 the apartment building and into the carport area, and there 334 00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:14.680 were steps that were led down there. So the only 335 00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:18.680 way that the killer could get out of the bedroom 336 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:23.480 or out of the apartment without being detected, and nobody 337 00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:26.599 saw anybody go in or come out of that apartment. 338 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:32.799 So the only way that he could avoid the mother 339 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:38.039 coming back from the from the mailbox was to jump 340 00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:44.359 over the fORCH and into the stairwell, which was a 341 00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:50.279 hell of an athletic move. So you know, you know, 342 00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:54.680 right off the bat, this guy knows number one something 343 00:22:54.720 --> 00:23:00.680 about the apartment complex, because the escape had to be instantaneous, right, 344 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:03.960 so you know you knew something about the apartment complex 345 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:07.240 and that the guy was very athletic, because that was 346 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:17.200 a very athletic jump, uh to escape. And but yeah, 347 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:21.960 the interesting thing is that that Dave Kushner and and 348 00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:25.839 I came up with the same scenario based upon the 349 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:29.960 fact uh, independent of each other. We didn't we we 350 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:39.640 hadn't discussed until much until much later. But yes, that 351 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:48.400 the time frame, the escape route, everything was just just 352 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:52.079 very fast, very instantaneous. 353 00:23:53.720 --> 00:23:57.599 You also observed some small red spots and streaks downward 354 00:23:58.119 --> 00:24:01.880 in this and again affording the theory that someone must 355 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:06.839 have jumped. Let's talk about the go ahead. 356 00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:09.920 No, yeah, I was going to say that on the 357 00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:13.960 on the wall of the stairwell leading into the tunnel 358 00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:19.599 was a spot mark. Sottlan noticed that. He's the one 359 00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:22.839 that found that. And it was obviously a blood spot. 360 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:26.839 It was red, and it streaked down downward and it 361 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:32.119 was on the far I guess you'd call it the 362 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:41.079 north wall of the of the sharewell. 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