WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.080 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Geesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:33.359 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 7 00:00:39.439 --> 00:00:45.679 Good Evening, Good fellow, Capo killer thief, a man so 8 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:49.759 diabolically evil that he ordered his eldest son to murder 9 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:54.359 his closest associate and his youngest son to murder his 10 00:00:54.520 --> 00:00:58.719 best friend. When Greg Scarpa was in his early twenties, 11 00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:01.920 he became a good fellow the Prafacci family by swearing 12 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:05.040 a blood oath to the mafia, at the time, the 13 00:01:05.079 --> 00:01:10.280 country's largest organized crime syndicate, and for twenty five years 14 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:13.000 he betrayed that oath and the men closest to him. 15 00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:18.079 By acting as a paid informant for the FBI. He 16 00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:21.920 fed America's premier law enforcement agency a steady stream of 17 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:25.840 self serving information, accusing the men who trusted him with 18 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:30.959 their lives of every crime he was himself committing. During 19 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:34.359 those twenty five years of treachery, Scarpa was a one 20 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:37.760 man crime wave who spent only thirty days behind bars 21 00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:42.760 thanks to his status as the FBI's ultimate mafia insider, 22 00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:48.079 his standing as a prized informant, freedom to engage in 23 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:54.000 mayhem and murder, knowing he had a virtual license to kill. 24 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:58.239 Greg SCARPA Legendary Evil is a deep dive that provides 25 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:04.200 fresh insight into scarp malignant personality. Dyer peels back the 26 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:07.959 layers of myth and misdirection to paint as complete and 27 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:11.319 accurate a picture as possible of a man who murdered 28 00:02:11.319 --> 00:02:15.479 his enemies and betrayed his friends, of a bigamist who 29 00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:19.960 loved only money, of a feared and reviled man whose 30 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:25.319 destructive appetites knew no bounds. The book that we're featuring 31 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:30.520 this evening is Greg SCARPA Legendary Evil, The Many Faces 32 00:02:30.599 --> 00:02:36.000 of a Mafia Killer, with my special guest author Jonathan Dyer. 33 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:39.639 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 34 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:41.599 this interview. Jonathan P. 35 00:02:41.879 --> 00:02:44.159 Dyer, Thanks for having me. 36 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:48.800 Dan, thank you very much. First off, tell us this 37 00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:53.919 very interesting story, the origins of this book. How you 38 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:58.120 came to write this book, Greg SCARPA Legendary Evil. 39 00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:02.919 Sure, my writing partner Joe Pletto, and I were working 40 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:08.159 on some spec scripts based off of Larry Masa's book 41 00:03:08.199 --> 00:03:12.520 The Life, and as we did that, Craig Scarpa was 42 00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:17.919 obviously a central character, and writing the scripts we got 43 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:22.680 more and more into factors besides Larry Masa that were 44 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:26.599 crucial to that story. And at one point Joe suggested 45 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:29.520 that I write a biography to Craig Scarpen and I 46 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:33.599 kind of pushed back. I hadn't written anything of book 47 00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:38.080 length nonfiction. I've written, you know, graduate school stuff. I'd 48 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:42.120 written some blog entries about baseball, but nothing book length 49 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:46.439 in terms of nonfiction. And Joe kept pushing a little, 50 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:49.560 pretty pretty gently, but so finally I said, you know, 51 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:52.120 I'll take a shot at it. I'll give it, give 52 00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:55.599 it a world two plus years of research and writing. 53 00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:59.639 After deciding to go ahead and do that, actually closer 54 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:02.280 to three years, i'd kind of put the project aside. 55 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:07.039 I had a conversation with another friend of mine, Pete Fairley, 56 00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:14.120 and Pete was really very kind and persuasive, saying, you 57 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:16.920 know you should do this, don't give up, keep going, 58 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:20.720 and gave me a little pep talk really when I 59 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:25.480 needed it. And so at that point, I was in 60 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:29.759 contact with Wild Blue Press and they were kind enough 61 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:33.519 to pick up the book. And that's really how the 62 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:34.519 book came about. 63 00:04:36.839 --> 00:04:42.040 Let's talk about you call it the beginning lawren Zaga 64 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:47.879 to Brooklyn. This is Greg scarp of Senior's father's journey 65 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:52.319 from Northeast Italy, a small town, to America's biggest city. 66 00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:56.600 And you talked about that by nineteen ninety there was 67 00:04:56.639 --> 00:05:00.360 more Italians that lived in New York City than in Italy, 68 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:04.040 except for the exception of the city of Rome. To 69 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:09.319 talk about Scarpa's early life, Greg Scarpa's early life, his 70 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:14.480 father Salvatore tell us about their early life in New York. 71 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:17.639 Sure, they came right around the time of the First 72 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:21.680 World War, and there was this huge attime diaspora to 73 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:25.839 New York, as you point out, and both Scarpus's father 74 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:29.839 and mother emigrated to New York, and they were both 75 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:34.920 pretty young, and they were both very poor. They married 76 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:39.199 in New York and had five children, fourth of which 77 00:05:39.319 --> 00:05:42.279 was Greg Scarpa. He had three older sisters and one 78 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:48.600 younger brother. And the documents from the Census Bureau from 79 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:52.199 nineteen thirty nineteen forty really indicate just how poor the 80 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:56.480 Scarpa family was. They were making virtually no money, just 81 00:05:56.519 --> 00:05:58.399 a little bit here and there. And in fact, Greg 82 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:05.759 Scarpa told his daughter Linda about going around Pauling Cole 83 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:09.160 in Brooklyn in New York when he was about eight 84 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:10.879 years old, to try to make a few bucks with 85 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:15.000 his dad. And those are the circumstances that Scarpa grew 86 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:19.319 up and very poor, a member of a meteor moderately 87 00:06:19.399 --> 00:06:25.000 large Italian immigrant family in a largely Italian immigrant neighborhood. 88 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:29.480 Scarper went to high school, he finished high school, and 89 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:33.600 at the time that he finished high school, right around 90 00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:38.199 the mid forties, the United States was demobilizing and he 91 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:43.040 had to compete for employment with literally millions of other 92 00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:46.759 young men coming back from being in the service during 93 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:47.720 World War Two. 94 00:06:48.920 --> 00:06:52.199 You say that he joined the Merchant Marines, but right 95 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:57.240 after that he was being recruited by Charlie Decige los 96 00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:01.839 Ario of the Profacci family, one of the five mafia 97 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:06.920 families in New York City. A virtual prerequisite from membership, though, 98 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:11.720 you had to be a Sicilian. Tell us how he 99 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:15.399 gets to be involved in the Pafacci family despite not 100 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:16.279 being Sicilian. 101 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:21.040 Yeah, Dan, that was as you point out after a 102 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:24.920 brief service in the Merchant Marine, which his son Gregory Jr. 103 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:30.959 Told me about, Scarpa was back in Brooklyn and Tallagero 104 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:35.000 of Cicero or the Cicero I've heard it Browns both ways. Anyway, 105 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:37.920 Charlie decide kind of took him under his arm there 106 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:43.160 in their neighborhood in Brooklyn, and the Profaci family, unlike 107 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:46.959 the other four families of the New York Mafia, did 108 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:50.959 not have this requirement that you'd be from Sicily or 109 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:54.000 be Sicilian in order to join, and that was sort 110 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:58.879 of a screening, vetting idea that the other families had 111 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:03.720 that you would really understand what this mafia organization Coosonostra 112 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:06.199 was all about if you were from Sicily. But again 113 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:10.680 the Prafacci family was not concerned with that, which is 114 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:15.160 for Scarpa's you know, you want to call it good 115 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:19.120 fortune at the time was important for him because he 116 00:08:19.160 --> 00:08:22.439 wasn't Cecilican, so the Cistero tick him under his wing, 117 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:28.040 and Scarpa by the early nineteen fifties earned his button 118 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:30.759 as a good fellow, which meant he was actually a member. 119 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:34.519 At first, he was an associate, as people that are 120 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:37.919 originally working with other mafia members are but then he 121 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:40.440 earned his button as a good fellow. In the early 122 00:08:40.519 --> 00:08:43.320 nineteen fifties, you. 123 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:46.919 Talk about that he was married to Connie Farace or 124 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:51.080 Connie Forrest as she went by, and soon had a 125 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:55.919 daughter named Deborah and then later a son named Gregory Junior. 126 00:08:56.919 --> 00:09:00.240 Greg and Connie met in the late nineteen forties and 127 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:05.080 got married and they started a family, just like lots 128 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:08.600 of people did during those baby boom years, and their 129 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:14.480 four children, one of those was Gregory Junior, and Gregory 130 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:21.600 Junior and the other members of the Scarpett family eventually 131 00:09:21.879 --> 00:09:25.399 moved to Staten Island. Greig was doing well enough to 132 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:29.000 tell a Connie pick out a house, anyhouse you like, 133 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:31.120 and you can fix it up exactly the way you want. 134 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:34.799 So the family moved out of Brooklyn into Staten Island, 135 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:40.120 and Gregory talks about those years is being really good 136 00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:43.200 family years. They had a pool, they had lots of 137 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:46.600 parties at their house. They enjoyed where they were living. 138 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:50.879 As Gregory was growing up, and at the same time, Craig, 139 00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:55.399 of course, was increasing his profile in the Profacci family 140 00:09:55.840 --> 00:10:00.000 and eventually became a coppo. By the early nineteen sixties 141 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:03.519 in the profaction family. So there's this dual nature of 142 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:06.879 Scarpa's life, on the one hand, family man and on 143 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:11.200 the other hand, mafia family man. And that's proceeding through 144 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:14.279 the nineteen fifties and into the early nineteen sixties. 145 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:20.879 You talk about in the late fifties, the FBI already 146 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:26.919 had regional offices gathering information on mobsters in their territories 147 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:32.919 and reporting regularly to Washington. But the FBI, you right, 148 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:36.639 made little progress during the fifties to understand the structure 149 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:42.480 and workings of organized crime. You talk about Gregory Scarpa's 150 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:49.360 criminal career ever evolving, and then an opportunity for the 151 00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:56.159 FBI when they contact Gregory Scarpa and want some information 152 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:59.600 from what is the what are they offering, and how 153 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:02.279 do they approach greg Ley Scarpat. 154 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:05.600 Yeah, just backing up a little, You're absolutely right about 155 00:11:05.639 --> 00:11:08.639 the FBI not really having a clear picture of what 156 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:10.519 was going on with organized crime. A lot of that 157 00:11:10.600 --> 00:11:14.559 had to do with jayger Hoover's own vision that there 158 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:18.200 was no organized prime in the United States. And once 159 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:22.639 John Kennedy became president and his brother Bobby Kennedy became 160 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:26.600 the Attorney General. That changed quickly. John Kennedy, as I 161 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:29.080 note in the book, during one of his speeches on 162 00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:31.919 the campaign trail in nineteen sixty, noted that there was 163 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:34.159 organized crime in the United States and it was growing. 164 00:11:34.679 --> 00:11:39.039 A number of initiatives start in the FBI to try 165 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:43.279 to figure out what this organization, the mafia, is all about, 166 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:49.399 and so agents were tasked with trying to get informants 167 00:11:49.919 --> 00:11:53.080 within the excuse me, within the mafia to provide them 168 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:57.320 with information. The FBI in New York, in the New 169 00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:00.960 York Office, was looking for Greig Scar his brother Sal 170 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:05.639 in connection with a suspected hijacking. They believe Sal was 171 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:08.559 involved and they couldn't find him. So they knew that 172 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:12.639 Craig was his brother from some older arrest records that 173 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:17.480 they had, and they approached Greg and asked them to 174 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:24.480 help them find Sal, and Craig, apparently very politely in 175 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:28.759 exchanges that were completely civil, said I'm not going to 176 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:31.000 help you. I can't do it. And they pushed for 177 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:33.720 a little while trying to get him to help, and 178 00:12:33.799 --> 00:12:36.279 finally he said, look, fellas, I'm going to get killed 179 00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:39.399 if people see me talking to you, So you've got 180 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:41.799 to just leave me alone. And it seemed like at 181 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:45.480 that point that that was it. FBI and Greg Scarpa 182 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:49.120 were not going to have any relationship. But Scarpa had 183 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:54.759 a change of heart and he approached the FBI and said, essentially, 184 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:55.879 what do you want to know? 185 00:12:57.159 --> 00:13:00.120 It's very interesting that the FBI had an issue a 186 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:05.320 program almost at the same time called the Top Echelon 187 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:11.399 Criminal Informant Program or TECHI as its short form designated, 188 00:13:12.200 --> 00:13:17.399 and they wanted and were interested in gaining information. So 189 00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:23.360 in that regard, what's Greg Scarpa rule with the FBI. 190 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:29.759 Yeah, that program, as I read the FBI documents, grew 191 00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:32.879 out of what was originally called a top hoodlum program. 192 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:37.559 The TECI program was a little more sophisticated, and again 193 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:39.720 the FBI was trying to get out of the darkness 194 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:43.720 that they existed in with respect to information about the mafia. 195 00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:48.559 And once Greg Scarpa decided that he was going to 196 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:52.840 cooperate with the FBI, not so much to half his 197 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:57.399 brother arrested, but to provide the FBI with the information 198 00:13:57.480 --> 00:14:04.679 that they were interested in about bigger picture FBI mafia activity. 199 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:10.039 Once he decided to go ahead and do that, the 200 00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:14.080 amount of information that he provided very quickly was just enormous. 201 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:18.679 He provided information about the history of the mafia, the 202 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:22.720 history of the mafia in the United States. He provided 203 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:27.360 information about their ceremonies, about their rules and regulations, about 204 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:30.320 their dues and don'ts I mean. He provided information about 205 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:34.840 their structure, about their organizational structure, what a papo was, 206 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:38.519 what a boss was, what the boss of bosses, who 207 00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:41.840 that was. He provided them with a wealth of information 208 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:46.159 that was, it appears from the documents, was really brand 209 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:49.639 new to the FBI. They were very excited about this 210 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:54.080 new contact, Greg Scarpa, who was providing him with them 211 00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:57.840 with all this information. From from Scarpu's point of view, 212 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:01.399 it seems to me that scarp was after two things, 213 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:04.440 and one was money, because the FBI was paying him 214 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:07.559 for this information, and money was really the only thing 215 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:11.159 that Greg Scarpa really loved in his life. And protection, 216 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:19.759 protection from incarceration, from being arrested, from being tried, convicted, 217 00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:23.799 and incarcerated. So the two sides really had something that 218 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:28.879 they specifically wanted and it paid off for both of them. 219 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:33.759 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear 220 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:40.480 these messages. What you haven't mentioned is that Gregory Scarpa 221 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:44.240 said he was a coppo in the Profacci family, meaning 222 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:48.639 the highest member, the boss in the Pafacci family. There 223 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:51.360 was some dispute on that claim, wasn't it. 224 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:56.200 Sharp is self reporting to the FBI with regard to 225 00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:59.799 the structure the Profacci family, he included himself as a coppo. 226 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:05.320 And what we find later is that Scarpa, when Joe 227 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:09.600 Colombo became the boss of the Prafacci family, Carpo was 228 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:14.440 no longer a coppo. When Prafaci died in nineteen sixty two, 229 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:19.120 the heads of the other families in New York were 230 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:23.879 really interested in having some younger leadership in at the 231 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:27.120 head of what became the Columbo family, and Joe Colombo 232 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:30.720 was younger for a boss at the time, and as 233 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:33.960 I recall, in his mid forties. And Joe Colombo had 234 00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:37.440 that same attitude that he was going to try to 235 00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:42.279 inject youthfulness into the coppo structure of the Colombo family. 236 00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:47.440 And so Scarpa fully appoint expected to be appointed a 237 00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:51.600 coppo under Joe Colombo. But it didn't happen. And if 238 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:54.480 it had happened, at least my reading of the documents 239 00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:57.519 is that it would have been a reappointment since he 240 00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:00.399 had been a coppo and self reported as a coppo 241 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:06.079 under the Profacci family. What happened instead was, according to 242 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:11.960 Gregory Junior, greg Senior became part of this very close 243 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:17.319 circle of Colombo advisors, Colombo friends, just this inner circle 244 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:21.440 for Joe Colombo. And again according to Gregory, as a 245 00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:24.480 result of that, he had more power in the family 246 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:29.000 than he would have had as a coppo with respect 247 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:33.119 to his closeness to Joe Colombo. And so we don't 248 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:36.440 see all of these years that he's operating in the 249 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:40.359 Columbo family. We don't see greg as a coppo, but 250 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:42.839 as a good fellow. 251 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:46.359 You take us to nineteen sixty two and back to 252 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:50.960 greg Scarpus's personal life. He began to court a teen 253 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:55.680 despite being married a team from Brooklyn, Linda Diana, who 254 00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:59.279 was seventeen years old and he was thirty four at 255 00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:04.240 the time. She became eventually his mistress or as they 256 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:09.279 referred to him as Gumar, and this relationship, as you write, 257 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:13.559 lasted until his death. They lived together for thirty years 258 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:16.759 and had two children, and for all intents and purposes, 259 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:22.359 husband and wife. Tell us a little bit about more 260 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:25.359 about this relationship while he is married. 261 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:31.279 Yeah, he never divorced Connie. He he bought a horse 262 00:18:31.319 --> 00:18:33.720 farm for her in Lakewood, New Jersey and moved her 263 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:37.640 out there. And this was after he had started having 264 00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:42.759 an affair with Linda Diana later Linda Schiro and the 265 00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:47.200 good Fellow ethic, if you want to call it, that 266 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:53.279 almost required a powerful mafia figure to have a gumar 267 00:18:54.039 --> 00:18:58.000 a mistress, so this was not at all unusual, especially 268 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:04.160 even though he was married. So that relationship began, as 269 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:07.240 you point out, in the early nineteen sixties, when Scarpa 270 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:10.640 was about twice Linda Sharra's age. She was actually a 271 00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:15.119 minor at the time, and Linda Schiro Linda Diana at 272 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:20.160 the time was already very familiar with the mob. She 273 00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:24.000 lived in Brooklyn. She'd been around gangsters really from a 274 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:30.559 very young age. Her her grandmother ran numbers for the 275 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:37.400 mob in Brooklyn, and she dated a mobster for a 276 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:40.960 while before she had met Greg scarp In fact, she 277 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:45.319 was dating him while she first became involved with Greg Scarpa. 278 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:48.920 So she was very familiar with the mob life and 279 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:52.519 as she said many times quite frankly, when people asked 280 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:55.319 her if she was afraid of Greg Scarpa if she 281 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:59.319 was concerned about her own safety. She said, look, I 282 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:02.519 admired the guys. I was thrilled by it. I wasn't 283 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:05.680 afraid at all. And that, as you point out, that 284 00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:11.759 relationship with Linda Schirow eventually blossomed into Greg and Linda 285 00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:17.279 getting a place together and then Linda having two children 286 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:22.599 by Greg Scarpa, a son and a daughter in reverse order. 287 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:26.039 That the daughter was first and that was Linda Little 288 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:29.240 Linda as the calder, and then Joy Scarper was a 289 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:33.240 couple of years later, all the while Scarpa maintained his marriage. 290 00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:42.319 Very very interesting though, that Linda Diana has a plan, 291 00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:48.759 has a plan with Gregory Scarpa and to use to 292 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:53.359 duke to fool Charlie Shiro tell us about this plan 293 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:57.599 to have children, and Charlie Shiro not to be the wiser. 294 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:03.359 Yeah. When Linda, well, for most of her life, I 295 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:07.839 suppose she considers herself a devout Catholic and she didn't 296 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:11.319 want to have children out of wedlock, and scarp was 297 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:13.599 already married, so she didn't feel that she could have 298 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:18.599 children with him, and her children could be baptized in 299 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:22.359 the Catholic Church. So what she came up with was 300 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:26.359 the scheme to get married to this guy, Charlie, and 301 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:30.519 then still have Scarpa's children, but try to pretend and 302 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:34.480 deceive Charlie that they were his, and they were married, 303 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:39.640 the children could be baptized and Linda would have be 304 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:43.720 able to fulfill those goals of having children by Greg 305 00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:46.960 Scarpa and the children being baptized in the Catholic church. 306 00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:52.119 Charlie eventually caught on, particularly when a caregiver made a 307 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:56.359 comment about how much Joey looked like Greg Scarpa. Charlie 308 00:21:56.400 --> 00:22:00.920 eventually caught on, and there was a divorce and Linda 309 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:06.559 and Greg moved in together permanently shortly after that. Just 310 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:10.920 you know, when Linda first brought this idea, the scheme 311 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:12.960 to Greg, he thought it was nuts. He just said 312 00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:18.480 that's crazy. But eventually he said, okay, let's go ahead 313 00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:20.720 and do that, and that's exactly what they did. 314 00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:27.240 You're right that the Joe Prafacci, head of the Prafacci family, 315 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:32.240 dies in June nineteen sixty two at sixty four years old. 316 00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:37.079 Scarpa tells his handlers that the First Columbo War was 317 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:43.680 in full swing Pifacci Gallo feud otherwise that we be call. 318 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:46.160 Right the Gallow brothers, there are three of them. Larry 319 00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:48.480 Gallow was kind of the brains did outfit, and then 320 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:53.200 Joey was a little more unhinged, and then there was 321 00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:57.279 Albert kid Blast Gallo, and the three Gallo brothers that 322 00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:01.240 had been brought into the Prafacci family during the nineteen 323 00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:06.279 fifties felt that they weren't getting the lucrative assignments, the 324 00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:09.920 lucrative jobs, a lucrative posts that they felt they were 325 00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:12.440 entitled to, and so there was a lot of grumbling 326 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:18.400 about that. And then the death of joe Prafacci was 327 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:23.079 an opportunity for a lot of people to try to 328 00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:26.200 to maneuver their way into a more powerful position in 329 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:29.759 the Columbo family, and that was one of the goals 330 00:23:29.799 --> 00:23:33.240 of the Gallows as well. And at one point Carman 331 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:37.319 Persico attempted to kill Larry Gallo by strangling him, and 332 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:44.039 the attempted murder was interrupted. Larry survived, but the bad 333 00:23:44.119 --> 00:23:48.359 blood between Carmen Persico, who became an important member in 334 00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:52.640 the Colombo family and actually the Columbo family in general, 335 00:23:53.640 --> 00:24:00.359 continued passed Profacci's death and into the succession of cential 336 00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:03.200 succession by Joe Columbo as the boss of the family. 337 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:11.039 Let's talk about Greg Scarpa as a killer while at 338 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:14.599 the same time he has various handlers, or at least 339 00:24:14.599 --> 00:24:18.519 he has two handlers. Special agent that will be Lynn 340 00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:22.279 de Vecchio will be a very important figure in this story, 341 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:26.279 but she is not his first handler. So let's talk 342 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:29.799 about Greg Scarpa as a killer and while at the 343 00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:33.759 same time, what information is he giving the FBI. 344 00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:38.880 Yeah, we don't have a lot of hard data on 345 00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:44.480 Scarpa's killings during the nineteen fifties and the early nineteen sixties. 346 00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:49.039 We do have some testimony from Linda Charro about Barpa 347 00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:52.839 killing fairly capriciously a guy he was supposed to be 348 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:55.400 buying some stamps from, and then Scarpa met him in 349 00:24:55.400 --> 00:24:59.079 a car Linda Hurd gunshots, and then Scarpa came back 350 00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:02.200 with both the money and the stamps or maybe it 351 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:05.240 was coins. I don't recall off the top of my head, Dan, 352 00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:08.720 But at any rate, because as I point out in 353 00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:11.480 the book, these guys are living in a world of secrecy. 354 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:14.440 They're not They don't have a bunch of press following 355 00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:16.440 them around we don't have a whole lot of a 356 00:25:16.519 --> 00:25:20.039 clear idea what scarp was up to in terms of murders. 357 00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:23.759 We do know that Linda has said that when they 358 00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:28.039 first met Scarpid said that he had already killed twenty 359 00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:33.160 plus people, And we don't know if that's Scarpa trying 360 00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:36.559 to brag. We don't know if it's absolutely true, and 361 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:38.680 if it is, we don't know who those victims are. 362 00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:43.759 But eventually, as a result of Scarpa being involved with 363 00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:48.160 the FBI, we get a clearer picture of the murders 364 00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:52.200 that Scarpa was involved in during the sixties, seventies, and 365 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:56.160 eighties and into the nineties. And in fact, one of 366 00:25:56.200 --> 00:25:58.200 the theories that I have in the book is that 367 00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:01.759 when Scarpa was first dropped by the FBI in nineteen 368 00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:07.000 seventy five, and its first handler was Anthony Veolano, it's 369 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:11.880 my view that another informant told the FBI that of 370 00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:14.759 a murder that scarp had been involved in in nineteen 371 00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:16.960 sixty four that didn't come to light to the FBI 372 00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:20.119 till nineteen seventy five, and that's why scarp was dropped 373 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:23.079 by the FBI as an informant. They had told him 374 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:28.559 during the crisis after Joe Perfacci died, that he was 375 00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:32.920 absolutely not to be involved in murder. He told the 376 00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:36.640 FBI that there was some there was some rumbling that 377 00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:40.160 he was going to be told to kill the potential 378 00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:44.480 successor to Perfaccio, this guy Maglioco. And when he told 379 00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:47.079 the FBI that, all kinds of alarm bells went off, 380 00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:49.599 both in New York and in Washington, and scarp was 381 00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:52.119 told in no uncertain terms he was not to be 382 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:55.119 involved in murder, not to be involved in killing. That 383 00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:58.079 was a line he wasn't supposed to cross. As we know, 384 00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:02.440 he crossed it many times. And again it's my view 385 00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:05.440 that when the FBI found out in nineteen seventy five 386 00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:09.480 that had been involved, specifically alleged to be involved in 387 00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:12.559 a murder in nineteen sixty four, that that's when they 388 00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:15.599 dropped him the first time. So that's some of the 389 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:20.799 sort of skeedgy detail we have on Scarpa's career as 390 00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:24.240 a killer up until about nineteen eighty, when we start 391 00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:25.119 getting a lot more. 392 00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:32.599 Let's not go into the various accounts of what Scarpug 393 00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:38.839 provided to the FBI regarding three very important historic events 394 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:42.839 that occurred in Mississippi. Can you tell us about his involvement. 395 00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:46.880 Yeah, There's been a lot of speculation over the years, 396 00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:49.880 and scarp has sort of fueled some of that speculation 397 00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:52.960 by making a few things up. But there were three 398 00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:57.079 cases of that were very large in the civil rights movement, 399 00:27:57.400 --> 00:28:00.480 and the first was the murder of Medgar Evers. The 400 00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:03.920 second was the murder of the three civil rights workers 401 00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:08.240