1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:15,960
Speaker 1: The the the the.

2
00:00:19,679 --> 00:00:26,480
Speaker 2: The the the the.

3
00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:35,520
Speaker 1: The the.

4
00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,000
Speaker 3: The the the.

5
00:00:51,920 --> 00:01:26,040
Speaker 4: The All right, what's up, y'all? Welcome It's another open

6
00:01:26,079 --> 00:01:29,879
form debate, open Q and A. You got questions, you

7
00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:34,719
got problems, you got challenges, you got a goiter, you

8
00:01:34,719 --> 00:01:36,519
got I don't even know what goiters are, but if

9
00:01:36,519 --> 00:01:39,319
you got it, you can call in and I'm gonna

10
00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,200
heal you. Put your hands on the screen. We're gonna

11
00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,239
heal your gout. We're gonna heal, heal all of your ailments,

12
00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,359
your illnesses. And I'm joined with Nick the Apologist from

13
00:01:49,519 --> 00:01:50,519
Fearless Truth.

14
00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,519
Speaker 5: How you doing today, Nick, I'm good man.

15
00:01:53,599 --> 00:01:55,640
Speaker 6: Good to see everybody here. Hope everyone's doing well.

16
00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:58,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, Nick and I've been talking about doing a stream

17
00:01:58,799 --> 00:02:01,599
for a while because we did some uh streams with

18
00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,359
God Logic debating a lot of Muslims and and those

19
00:02:04,359 --> 00:02:05,120
did pretty well.

20
00:02:05,239 --> 00:02:07,760
Speaker 5: So this is long anticipated.

21
00:02:08,199 --> 00:02:10,240
Speaker 4: Nick's gonna join me today for the Q and A

22
00:02:10,319 --> 00:02:13,840
and the open chats, and if you want to call

23
00:02:13,879 --> 00:02:16,560
in with an argument, a question, a disagreement. It's all

24
00:02:16,599 --> 00:02:18,400
open topics today. We're going to try to keep it

25
00:02:18,439 --> 00:02:22,599
focused on theology. Preferably, we want to talk about Orthodox theology,

26
00:02:22,719 --> 00:02:28,520
church history, the councils, patristics, apologetics. If you're atheist, if

27
00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,439
you're agnostic, if you're a Muslim, if you're a Protestant,

28
00:02:31,479 --> 00:02:36,240
if you're gnostic, if you're a pagan, whatever it is

29
00:02:36,319 --> 00:02:38,120
you want to call in, you go right to the

30
00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,240
head of the line and feel free to ask whatever

31
00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:40,560
you want.

32
00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,560
Speaker 5: I know Nick's been doing a lot of debates.

33
00:02:42,159 --> 00:02:44,360
Speaker 4: With Muslims while we let people kind of roll in,

34
00:02:45,479 --> 00:02:47,680
what's your what's your recent I know you debated that

35
00:02:47,759 --> 00:02:50,319
was like a Muslim, what's that guy's name that you've

36
00:02:50,319 --> 00:02:51,039
recently debated?

37
00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,919
Speaker 6: It's some other one on in Spinal Philosophy channel.

38
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:55,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, what was that guy's name?

39
00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:56,520
Speaker 6: Orthodox Muslim?

40
00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,960
Speaker 5: That's it. Yeah, tell us about that bait debate.

41
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,639
Speaker 4: Give us a kind of rundown of how it went

42
00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:05,199
from your perspective and where you thought his weakest points were,

43
00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,240
and what what the crux.

44
00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:07,400
Speaker 5: Of it was.

45
00:03:08,039 --> 00:03:10,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, man, So we had we had two different debates.

46
00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,719
Speaker 7: The last one was we were speaking about whether or

47
00:03:14,759 --> 00:03:17,280
not you can you know, worship when the worship that

48
00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,560
was given of Christ is going to be considered true worship,

49
00:03:20,719 --> 00:03:24,120
actual worship, And he was trying to say no in Matthew,

50
00:03:24,159 --> 00:03:26,840
it's the hypostatic unions never taught the worship there isn't

51
00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,159
give him. And I tried to explain to him, like, hey,

52
00:03:29,159 --> 00:03:30,840
you know, even if you look at the New Testament, right,

53
00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:35,039
the word Proscono and the Greek, it's never used besides worship.

54
00:03:35,039 --> 00:03:36,919
Speaker 6: Even when it's used with.

55
00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:40,520
Speaker 7: With Cornelius, when he worships Proscanoe with Paul, I believe

56
00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,680
it's Paul or Peter, one of the two. He says, Hey,

57
00:03:43,919 --> 00:03:46,719
why why are you doing this to me? Don't do

58
00:03:46,759 --> 00:03:50,360
this to me, right, do not do this? And so

59
00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:51,439
that that was how that one went.

60
00:03:51,479 --> 00:03:52,199
Speaker 6: That was really bad.

61
00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,560
Speaker 7: And then the first one, which was a few months ago,

62
00:03:55,639 --> 00:03:58,719
we were talking about the Trinity, and he was trying

63
00:03:58,719 --> 00:04:03,240
to run it's seem like some sort of argument to

64
00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:08,479
make us fall into like three gods, so to say, polytheism, and.

65
00:04:08,479 --> 00:04:11,039
Speaker 6: We're arguing about what the monarchy is.

66
00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,520
Speaker 7: He was saying that us, as Trinitarians, we don't believe

67
00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,600
in the monarchy of the Trinity. Only certain people believe

68
00:04:17,639 --> 00:04:20,160
in the monarchy of the Father. And he just has

69
00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,480
no clue what he's talking about. Unfortunately, we kind of

70
00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,399
see this with a lot of the Muslims nowadays is

71
00:04:24,399 --> 00:04:29,279
that they don't study like Eastern Orthodoxy, what we actually

72
00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,040
believe they have. They study the basic, watered down version

73
00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,240
of Christianity. And then when they talk to Eastern Orthodox

74
00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,279
apologists and I tell them things like, hey, they're one God,

75
00:04:38,399 --> 00:04:40,079
not just because they're nature, but because they have the

76
00:04:40,079 --> 00:04:42,639
same operation of action, right, they have the same energies,

77
00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,000
they get real confused. I was talking to a Muslim

78
00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,920
the day and I told them, yes, God has you know,

79
00:04:47,959 --> 00:04:51,480
the one shared energy between the person the trinity. Dude

80
00:04:51,519 --> 00:04:53,519
thought I was talking about like energies of a light bulb.

81
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:58,000
I was like, Bro, this is crazy.

82
00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,160
Speaker 4: We'll be going back forth between the chat and between

83
00:05:03,439 --> 00:05:07,319
the call ins chastity, you're the first call or what's

84
00:05:07,319 --> 00:05:07,839
on your mind?

85
00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:15,680
Speaker 5: Got I'm mute, I'm your dude. Can you can you

86
00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:17,240
hear me right now? Yes, sir? What's up?

87
00:05:18,319 --> 00:05:20,519
Speaker 8: Perfect? So, first of all, I want to say like,

88
00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,360
it's an abso pleasure to speak with you. I just

89
00:05:23,399 --> 00:05:27,519
like had a couple of questions. I'm recently coming from

90
00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,079
the like eightheist side, but prior to that I was

91
00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:37,079
pentecostal unfortunately, but like I was looking into returning back

92
00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,920
to like orthodoxical I'm like an Ethiopian background, and I

93
00:05:40,959 --> 00:05:43,800
was looking to going into to the Oriental churches. But

94
00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:45,959
I've been reading and I've been looking into what you've

95
00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,399
even said, and I've seen a lot of Sam Shamoon's stuff,

96
00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,879
and he's kind of saying that Apostolic churches are kind

97
00:05:52,879 --> 00:05:55,439
of equally, Okay, I just want to get your.

98
00:05:55,399 --> 00:05:55,839
Speaker 5: Thoughts on that.

99
00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, we did a whole video of me and Kai

100
00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,680
and David Arhon rebuking this idea, reputing this idea that

101
00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,839
there's this sort of a generic Apostolic Christianity. If you

102
00:06:05,879 --> 00:06:08,360
go to the Christians of the first thousand years, none

103
00:06:08,399 --> 00:06:10,959
of them believed in a generic Apostolic Christianity. They all

104
00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,240
believe that even though all the sides thought the other

105
00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,560
sides are wrong, whether you're Orthodox, Oriental, or Roman Catholic,

106
00:06:17,959 --> 00:06:20,720
they all believe that the other sides were not part

107
00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:22,720
of the church. So there's no such thing as a

108
00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:27,759
generic lowest common denominator, Oriental or shoot me, Apostolic Christianity.

109
00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:32,319
So that's just fundamentally a flawed, nonsensical ecclesiology. Paul says,

110
00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,519
there's one Lord, one faith, one baptism one body. You know,

111
00:06:35,519 --> 00:06:39,879
if you look at the Niceno constant Politan creed, it's one, one.

112
00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,279
Speaker 5: Holy Ethic, one holy Catholic Aposoltic church.

113
00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:47,160
Speaker 4: So that church isn't the one that's divided amongst three branches.

114
00:06:46,759 --> 00:06:47,920
Speaker 5: Or any of that kind of nonsense.

115
00:06:47,959 --> 00:06:52,480
Speaker 4: So it's just fundamentally contrary to ecclesiology and to Christology.

116
00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,759
Speaker 5: Nick, did you have any let me get nixed if

117
00:06:56,759 --> 00:06:57,560
he has any comments on that.

118
00:06:57,720 --> 00:06:59,079
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I was just going to say to

119
00:06:59,160 --> 00:06:59,600
that point.

120
00:06:59,639 --> 00:07:01,240
Speaker 7: I mean, this is kind of the whole reason why

121
00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,959
as Orthodox Christians we don't take any other Eucharist as valid, right,

122
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,519
because we don't think that I mean, these other sex

123
00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,000
they're not even like the other sex that I call

124
00:07:11,079 --> 00:07:14,600
themselves Orthodox Christianity, right, like Oriental Orthodox. I mean, we're

125
00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,319
very particular about how we administer the sacraments, and so

126
00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,120
I think even just seeing that you can look at

127
00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:21,680
the first one thousand years and see that they were

128
00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,000
the same way and how they administered the sacraments. They

129
00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,639
didn't see them as just some sort of open flim

130
00:07:26,639 --> 00:07:29,240
that anyone could have, but it's rather something those inside

131
00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:30,279
the church could partaken.

132
00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a great point, Like nobody.

133
00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,879
Speaker 4: In the first thousand years Christianity practiced the sort of

134
00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,680
open communion where everybody could commune.

135
00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,120
Speaker 8: Right right, Yeah, And like so, like I done quite

136
00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,839
a bit of research. I watched a couple of a

137
00:07:44,879 --> 00:07:47,120
majority of the first part of what you Do with

138
00:07:47,519 --> 00:07:49,800
David Orhant, and like, I think.

139
00:07:49,639 --> 00:07:50,439
Speaker 5: You're completely right.

140
00:07:50,639 --> 00:07:51,879
Speaker 9: I was kind of looking.

141
00:07:52,199 --> 00:07:54,000
Speaker 8: To I'll be honest, kind of cope because I wanted

142
00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,439
to go to that church. But it's pretty clear that

143
00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,519
like it makes sense on every level with regards to

144
00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,000
continue and the idea of like the one tra Churchill. Yeah,

145
00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:04,439
like that's honest to come up what I just wanted

146
00:08:04,439 --> 00:08:06,720
to ask and just like I just wanted to clarify

147
00:08:06,759 --> 00:08:08,720
if there was any sort of like way to see

148
00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,920
none any other perspective, but yeah, kind of answer what

149
00:08:11,959 --> 00:08:12,160
I need.

150
00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:14,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I mean there's just there's just not really

151
00:08:14,879 --> 00:08:18,519
because you know, it's what's orthodox ecclesiology or what's not

152
00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,920
so And also I mean when eventually it's a little difficult,

153
00:08:22,959 --> 00:08:25,000
but if you know the Christology, you know it's not

154
00:08:25,079 --> 00:08:27,800
you don't have to go too far into the questions

155
00:08:27,839 --> 00:08:30,040
to figure out who has the right Christology. And that's

156
00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,399
why we've been doing that ongoing series with me and

157
00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:36,440
Kai and David, which were about four or five parts into.

158
00:08:36,519 --> 00:08:42,679
But Josh, what's up man? How you doing? And then

159
00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,600
we'll go to Rick. Josh, I mean, hey you brother,

160
00:08:46,639 --> 00:08:47,080
how you doing?

161
00:08:47,159 --> 00:08:47,960
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me?

162
00:08:48,279 --> 00:08:49,559
Speaker 5: What's that dog?

163
00:08:49,799 --> 00:08:50,000
Speaker 10: Oh?

164
00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:50,279
Speaker 7: Man?

165
00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:51,000
Speaker 11: Chill and Chilla.

166
00:08:51,039 --> 00:08:53,919
Speaker 12: Hey, First of all, thank you for recommending on whatever

167
00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,200
episode it was the.

168
00:08:55,399 --> 00:08:57,840
Speaker 5: Book from Father Sara from Rose orthodox in the.

169
00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,279
Speaker 12: Religion of the Future, great book, just finished it. So

170
00:09:01,879 --> 00:09:04,639
I wanted to ask then, kind of keeping with that

171
00:09:04,799 --> 00:09:10,559
track of literature, you know, or Orthodoxy and conspiracy kind

172
00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,879
of meet any other reading recommendations along those lines.

173
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,320
Speaker 4: Well, Father spirit On Bailey has a book that's kind

174
00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,879
of a follow up to that Orthodoxy and the Kingdom

175
00:09:20,919 --> 00:09:22,960
of Satan, and it deals a lot with you know,

176
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:28,080
spiritual warfare, Zionism in g O's CIA, all that kind

177
00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,919
of stuff plays into some of the chapters of his

178
00:09:31,879 --> 00:09:38,840
follow up book. But yeah, I mean Orthodoxy and conspiracy theories.

179
00:09:38,879 --> 00:09:41,360
Speaker 5: I'm not really I can't think of any other time that's.

180
00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:42,200
Speaker 6: That's a niche topic.

181
00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:42,840
Speaker 5: It's kind of hard.

182
00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:44,480
Speaker 6: I was thinking about books like, I don't.

183
00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:48,039
Speaker 5: Know, sure, Yeah, I mean that's what you just recommend.

184
00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:48,559
Speaker 9: It's perfect.

185
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,679
Speaker 12: That's definitely putting something along those lines.

186
00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:51,840
Speaker 5: That book.

187
00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,320
Speaker 12: Similarly, just obviously you deal a lot of this when

188
00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,440
you suggest books that the elites educate themselves with, you know,

189
00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,320
like they're MA programs and whatnot, but more like an

190
00:10:02,519 --> 00:10:05,360
entry level, you know, third person perspective. What about just

191
00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,000
you know, CIA pampering with you know, like a progressive

192
00:10:09,039 --> 00:10:10,159
Christianity and such.

193
00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,240
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean there's a book that John Adams,

194
00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,279
who's in the chat, he's been reading and he's been

195
00:10:17,279 --> 00:10:19,840
doing a book report on which is actually about the

196
00:10:19,879 --> 00:10:25,600
relationship between American the American state, and evangelical liberalism.

197
00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:27,440
Speaker 5: So I'm going to ask.

198
00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,120
Speaker 4: Him in a moment to come up and recommend that

199
00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,519
book because I can't forget, I can't remember the name

200
00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,639
of it. But more specifically, David wim Hoff's book on

201
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,960
Henry Lewis and Time Life magazine and John Courtney Murray.

202
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:45,480
It's called The American Proposition. That's a very absolutely essential

203
00:10:45,519 --> 00:10:46,639
text that's right here.

204
00:10:48,039 --> 00:10:49,960
Speaker 13: Awesome, awesome, thanks so much, man.

205
00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's called John Courtney Murray, Time Life and the

206
00:10:52,879 --> 00:10:56,919
American Proposition, and it's a Catholic lawyer named David Wimhoff,

207
00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,840
who wrote giant seven d page book on the history

208
00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:03,840
of and I mean it mainly focuses on Catholic liberalism,

209
00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,799
but it also does touch on and explain like the

210
00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,559
doctional warfare program using liberal Protestantism as well. So that's

211
00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,240
a crucial text. But let me ask John what that

212
00:11:14,279 --> 00:11:17,039
other text was. And then I mean, Nick, you're feel

213
00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:18,600
free to hop in if you have any.

214
00:11:18,879 --> 00:11:21,240
Speaker 6: Got nothing on conspiracy, that's all you.

215
00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,120
Speaker 4: Well, this is yeah, this is like religious engineering, and

216
00:11:25,159 --> 00:11:28,360
you know the state wanted to control the church. John,

217
00:11:28,399 --> 00:11:30,799
what's that book that I've been listening to your podcasts

218
00:11:30,879 --> 00:11:31,759
or your audios of.

219
00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:38,279
Speaker 14: It's called From Bible Belt to sun Belt, Okay, by

220
00:11:38,279 --> 00:11:40,000
Professor Darren DEUTSCHUK.

221
00:11:41,399 --> 00:11:44,679
Speaker 4: Bible Belt to Sunbelt Professor Darren DEUTSCHUK.

222
00:11:46,039 --> 00:11:46,559
Speaker 5: Yeah.

223
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,559
Speaker 14: And then the another one is The Evangelist by Francis Fitzgerald.

224
00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,200
Speaker 5: Okay, cool, those.

225
00:11:54,799 --> 00:12:00,559
Speaker 14: Two together, if you read them together, the kind of

226
00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:01,480
compliment each other.

227
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:03,559
Speaker 5: Awesome? All right, perfect, John.

228
00:12:03,879 --> 00:12:06,120
Speaker 4: I feel free to stay up and chat if you want. Maddie,

229
00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:07,000
what's up, what's on your mind?

230
00:12:09,279 --> 00:12:16,480
Speaker 13: What I've got a quick thing to ask you about? Yes,

231
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,559
I see the mister or manifestation dude streaming himself. So

232
00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:22,519
I jumped on his life and clipped it and asked

233
00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,440
him about how he squares the vine sur pissy fall

234
00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,000
into modal collapse, right, expecting to get some sort of

235
00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:31,720
you know, at least some sort of defense, and his

236
00:12:31,799 --> 00:12:33,919
whole thing was he didn't know anything. I'm not God

237
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:35,080
and I'm infallible.

238
00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:36,639
Speaker 5: He didn't know anything about any of that.

239
00:12:37,159 --> 00:12:39,559
Speaker 9: Whoh, he just talking ship Man.

240
00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,679
Speaker 13: I said to me something like, you're the premise what

241
00:12:41,759 --> 00:12:42,840
you're arguing from his domina?

242
00:12:42,919 --> 00:12:45,879
Speaker 11: Your mother, your mother was doing muta with the she

243
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,320
and you, son of the devil, go back to hell,

244
00:12:50,399 --> 00:12:53,080
you son of the devil while your mom does.

245
00:12:53,639 --> 00:12:54,360
Speaker 5: That's all he knows.

246
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,360
Speaker 13: He's just he's just talking mat ship. And I was

247
00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,960
saying to him, listener, if by this lane of arugumentation, right,

248
00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,120
and if you follow Aquinas for instance, isn't he a

249
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:05,799
valuable being as well? Who is not God?

250
00:13:05,879 --> 00:13:06,039
Speaker 5: Right?

251
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,440
Speaker 13: So he was just basically pre loading his assumption about demonstrating.

252
00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,440
Speaker 5: He was like, I don't need to demonstrated, do not God?

253
00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:12,240
Speaker 9: You're infallible?

254
00:13:12,399 --> 00:13:12,759
Speaker 5: Was bro?

255
00:13:12,879 --> 00:13:13,279
Speaker 9: Fuck this?

256
00:13:13,639 --> 00:13:14,039
Speaker 5: Yeah?

257
00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,120
Speaker 4: Well, have you seen his clip where he calls the energies,

258
00:13:17,279 --> 00:13:18,960
like he makes fun of the divine energies.

259
00:13:19,879 --> 00:13:21,600
Speaker 9: He makes fun of the divine energies. But what's so

260
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:22,879
interesting is that last time.

261
00:13:22,799 --> 00:13:25,039
Speaker 13: I spoke to him, he actually admits that we have

262
00:13:25,159 --> 00:13:29,120
to make distinctions as human beings in determining the actions

263
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,600
of God. However, that doesn't attain to the idea that

264
00:13:31,759 --> 00:13:34,039
God is a compartmental He's made up part. So I

265
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,919
was like, dude, like, distinction doesn't intel composition one, and

266
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,320
you just affirm the idea that there are distinctions in

267
00:13:39,639 --> 00:13:40,080
what he.

268
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,480
Speaker 9: Can and can't do. And he was just like, you're

269
00:13:41,519 --> 00:13:41,840
not God.

270
00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:43,039
Speaker 5: You you're infallible.

271
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:44,679
Speaker 13: I don't have to take what you say because I

272
00:13:44,759 --> 00:13:46,799
have to take what the entire church well.

273
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:48,200
Speaker 4: I mean, it has nothing to do with the question

274
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,240
of impallibility. So he's just deflecting because he doesn't know.

275
00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:56,799
Of course, Daniel, what's up man? Thank you, Maddie. I mean, Nick,

276
00:13:56,799 --> 00:14:01,000
do you have any comments on Catholic Paul? Just like

277
00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:02,399
Sam shamun.

278
00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:05,000
Speaker 6: Man I got any comments on it.

279
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,840
Speaker 7: I mean, if anyone's taking Tom Saquanas to be dang

280
00:14:07,879 --> 00:14:11,440
there infallible though, that's a that's the first issue problem.

281
00:14:11,919 --> 00:14:14,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, big issue Daniel. What's up man?

282
00:14:15,799 --> 00:14:16,360
Speaker 15: Hey Jay?

283
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:17,840
Speaker 5: Just a quick question here.

284
00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,240
Speaker 16: I come from a Baptist background, but now I'm acquiring

285
00:14:20,399 --> 00:14:23,320
Orthodoxy after learning that PSA is most likely false.

286
00:14:23,879 --> 00:14:25,799
Speaker 5: The only question I have is on Hebrew six.

287
00:14:26,159 --> 00:14:28,320
Speaker 16: I feel like it makes sense under PSA because how

288
00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,240
can it get be paid twice? But curious how under

289
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,679
non PSA, how you look at Hebrew six where it's

290
00:14:33,679 --> 00:14:35,759
like impossible to renew those have been at lighten.

291
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,600
Speaker 4: Well, I think Hebrew six is talking about apostatizing to

292
00:14:41,679 --> 00:14:45,000
Judaism and if you you know, if you apostatize, and

293
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,480
kind of like the passage that the only sin that

294
00:14:47,519 --> 00:14:50,879
can't be forgiven is rejecting the call the Holy Spirit.

295
00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,000
I don't think it's actually physically stating something against the

296
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,720
Holy Spirit because many people who've done that have been saved.

297
00:14:57,799 --> 00:15:01,039
So I think Hebrew six and blashing the Holy Spirit

298
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,120
just talking about, you know, persevering an apostasy. So, but

299
00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:08,960
what's that relationship that you're making between that and paying

300
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:09,399
the debt?

301
00:15:09,639 --> 00:15:10,360
Speaker 5: Explain that to me?

302
00:15:11,039 --> 00:15:13,360
Speaker 16: Well, I was just thinking because in like OCTI Verse fours,

303
00:15:13,399 --> 00:15:15,320
as far as impossible for those who wants to enlightened

304
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,320
et cetera, and then that they would re crucify Christ. Essentially,

305
00:15:19,759 --> 00:15:21,240
now if it if it DEA's been paid.

306
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,559
Speaker 9: It makes sense because you can't pay your debt. Twice

307
00:15:23,799 --> 00:15:26,279
Christ re crucified to pay your.

308
00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:27,840
Speaker 5: Debt again, right seriously?

309
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, I think it's because it's because he's talking

310
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,759
about specifically going back to Judaism, and all of the

311
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:38,159
rituals of Judaism Paul is saying are fulfilled in the

312
00:15:38,279 --> 00:15:41,039
ritual of Christ's death Berlin Resurrection.

313
00:15:41,159 --> 00:15:45,679
Speaker 5: So there's one ritual that quote pays the debt that

314
00:15:45,679 --> 00:15:46,159
we owe.

315
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,080
Speaker 4: But the thing that with the debt that we owe,

316
00:15:48,159 --> 00:15:50,960
it's if you read palm Zanski's book, there's a section

317
00:15:51,039 --> 00:15:55,519
in about the controversies in Byzantium where this comes up

318
00:15:55,799 --> 00:15:58,320
with the deacon Setira Coos who tried to argue that

319
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,639
the payment was between the father and son. And one

320
00:16:01,639 --> 00:16:03,879
of the things that comes up is, well, you know,

321
00:16:03,919 --> 00:16:07,639
if you read the Psalms, God can't be paid by

322
00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:10,960
created things. He says in the Psalms, I own all

323
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,279
the cattle. There is no animal sacrifice that you can

324
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,279
give that will pacify me, because I already own all

325
00:16:16,279 --> 00:16:20,799
the animals. So God isn't placated by creatures, whether it's

326
00:16:20,799 --> 00:16:24,240
the physical human nature of Christ or whether it's you.

327
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,480
Speaker 5: Know, the blood of goats and bulls.

328
00:16:26,519 --> 00:16:30,039
Speaker 4: So the debt is a way of speaking of what

329
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,919
we owe to God and our lack in terms of

330
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,840
our sinfulness and missing the mark. It's not a literal

331
00:16:35,879 --> 00:16:39,960
payment model that could ever even be exchanged, and you can't.

332
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,440
You also can't have a payment model from PSA between

333
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:44,960
one person and the Trinity and the other.

334
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,320
Speaker 5: It can't be a payment from the Father or from.

335
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,799
Speaker 4: The son to the Father because that excludes Holy Spirit,

336
00:16:49,799 --> 00:16:53,279
and that's anti trinitarian, because everything in the Trinity is triadic.

337
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,320
So where is the Holy Spirit in this payment model

338
00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:01,120
that you know, you have Anselm pioneering with, you know,

339
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,559
his satisfaction, theory of atonement and so forth. So the

340
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,440
debt payment model is there in the scriptures. It's just

341
00:17:08,519 --> 00:17:11,839
that it's it's taken by the Protestants and by p

342
00:17:12,039 --> 00:17:16,480
s A to be this nominalistic legal status and this

343
00:17:16,519 --> 00:17:20,920
sort of you know, literal and infinite payment method exchange method,

344
00:17:21,519 --> 00:17:26,799
which is just not even triadically possible. It's not ontologically possible,

345
00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:29,680
given that God owns everything anyway, So none of it

346
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:31,720
really makes any sense when you actually get into the

347
00:17:32,559 --> 00:17:37,160
totality of the theology, and I mean, what could you

348
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:38,400
pay God with?

349
00:17:38,759 --> 00:17:39,839
Speaker 5: How has God paid off?

350
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,519
Speaker 4: In other words, if God is literally paid off, then

351
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,079
God is imperfect because he lacks. But God has no lack,

352
00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:48,920
he has no need, so why would he need to

353
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:49,680
be paid off?

354
00:17:51,039 --> 00:17:51,200
Speaker 1: Right?

355
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:52,079
Speaker 5: Yeah, totally.

356
00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,079
Speaker 16: And it looks like in regards to Hebrew sixth, then

357
00:17:55,279 --> 00:17:58,759
is it fair to say that if a Christian apostheesize

358
00:17:58,839 --> 00:18:02,440
and go to Judiaism, could be impossible to renew him

359
00:18:02,519 --> 00:18:04,440
or that like hyperbolic language.

360
00:18:04,759 --> 00:18:06,400
Speaker 5: I think it's a little bit of hyperbolic language.

361
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,200
Speaker 4: But what I'm saying is it's like the you know,

362
00:18:08,279 --> 00:18:10,599
the sin of blast hum and the Holy Spirit. It's

363
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,279
not the that you if you literally went from Orthodox

364
00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,880
Christianity Judaism you could never be saved again. I think

365
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,799
it's saying that if you think that's the route that

366
00:18:19,839 --> 00:18:22,519
you want to persevere in and you die in that,

367
00:18:22,519 --> 00:18:26,279
that's that's you're done. So because there been there have

368
00:18:26,319 --> 00:18:29,119
been plenty of people who have apostatized and come back,

369
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,240
and we wouldn't say that, well, sorry, you only get one,

370
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,720
you know, apostasy you can never come back, because if

371
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,200
you think about it, that gets very difficult to actually

372
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,079
make sense of, Like, I mean, every sin is kind

373
00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:42,000
of an apostasy.

374
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:43,079
Speaker 5: Uh.

375
00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,599
Speaker 4: And so what exactly why would it be only the

376
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,359
sin of apostatizing. It would it be just to Judaism

377
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,359
or to any religion. I mean plenty of people have

378
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:56,400
been raised you know, Orthodox cradle Orthodox, they had years

379
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,519
where they went and partied or atheists and they came

380
00:18:58,559 --> 00:19:00,599
back to Orthodoxy, right, So we wouldn't say that all

381
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,119
those people, oh no, you can't be saved. And there's

382
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,000
actually already a debate in the early Church with I

383
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,799
think the Novationists and you know, some of the Holy

384
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,200
Rollers of the first, second or third century. They were

385
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,680
actually arguing in this position that nobody could if they

386
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,759
were traded tours, which in the Early Church of traded

387
00:19:17,799 --> 00:19:20,200
tour was a person who handed over the manuscripts of

388
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,000
the of the gospels if they had them. So that

389
00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,279
was seen as a version of apostasy if you gave

390
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,680
up to the Roman officials the copies of the gospels

391
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:32,640
because they were rare, and and the debate was then well,

392
00:19:32,759 --> 00:19:36,319
what about other sins, and some of the Novationists and

393
00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,920
others said, well, if you are married and you commit adultery,

394
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,279
you can never be saved again, because it's not just

395
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,559
the sin of apostas, say they argue. They argue that

396
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,880
basically any sin, and this would eventually play into like

397
00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,400
the donuts is controversy too. So what ends up happening

398
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,759
is that the Church in the early you know, third, fourth,

399
00:19:53,799 --> 00:19:59,000
fifth century basically says, no, we're not you know, PERFECTI.

400
00:19:58,240 --> 00:19:59,440
Speaker 5: We're not holy rollers.

401
00:20:00,319 --> 00:20:01,960
Speaker 4: We live in a world where people are gonna send

402
00:20:02,079 --> 00:20:04,279
and so when they come back, there will be you know,

403
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,039
penances that people have, especially if it's something like adultery,

404
00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:09,400
and the penance for adultery in the early Church was

405
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,039
pretty severe. You'd have to like, you know, sit on

406
00:20:12,079 --> 00:20:15,240
your knees outside the church for like a year during

407
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,359
the services, that kind of stuff. So, in other words,

408
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,599
the attitude of the church was that, no, it's this

409
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,799
is not a literal statement that any you know, leaving

410
00:20:25,839 --> 00:20:28,240
of the faith at any point in your life means

411
00:20:28,279 --> 00:20:29,960
that you can never be saved again, which is which

412
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,799
is how you'd have to interpret it. So and that

413
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,880
is literally how like the Novationists and other groups interpreted

414
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,720
this passage totally.

415
00:20:37,799 --> 00:20:38,519
Speaker 9: Okay, thanks for that.

416
00:20:38,559 --> 00:20:40,400
Speaker 16: I'll look over it with that mindset, and yeah, thank

417
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:41,039
you appreciate it.

418
00:20:41,079 --> 00:20:41,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you.

419
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,079
Speaker 4: I mean a lot of the sort of surface level

420
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:48,680
I'm not saying that you're doing this, but like a

421
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,640
lot of the very like surface level readings of the

422
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,680
text that Protestants have, Like it leads you to really

423
00:20:54,720 --> 00:21:00,599
preposterous conclusions, and many of those conclusions are already inclusions

424
00:21:00,599 --> 00:21:04,240
of heterodox groups in the first, second, third, fourth century,

425
00:21:04,279 --> 00:21:06,200
like they did the same mistakes already.

426
00:21:07,279 --> 00:21:11,039
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's interesting because like things like like that debt repayment.

427
00:21:11,079 --> 00:21:14,400
They think because PSA and processism takes it out so

428
00:21:14,519 --> 00:21:16,640
bad that suddenly that we don't believe that there's any

429
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:17,680
sort of debt repayment.

430
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,880
Speaker 6: But we do. But then there's guys like RC. Sproull

431
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,319
right to go on and say that how.

432
00:21:23,319 --> 00:21:25,640
Speaker 7: The Father turned his back on the Sun and how

433
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,240
this trinity was split for a moment in history.

434
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,359
Speaker 6: And they take it to a whole new level.

435
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 7: So it's not that we don't believe, it's just that

436
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:33,680
they take things out of proportion a lot.

437
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like all these terms atonement, debt, legality, like

438
00:21:40,759 --> 00:21:43,079
all that terminology is true, it's in the Bible. But

439
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,559
the problem is that a lot of these people import

440
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:51,200
into that the Protestant, post Reformation, post Enlightenment meanings, which

441
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,359
none of the early Church fathers or medieval theologians thought

442
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:59,119
that way because like they weren't nominalists. Nominalism hadn't come

443
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,119
about yet. How could you have if you read like

444
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,000
Yustisia Day by Alstro McGrath, there's no way you could

445
00:22:05,039 --> 00:22:09,200
have this, or Gabriel Biles or excuse me, Hiker Oberman's

446
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,839
book on medieval nominalism in Luther. If you read those books,

447
00:22:13,839 --> 00:22:15,799
you realize that there's no way they could have even

448
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,880
had the Protestant psa model in their mind because they

449
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,920
didn't think in terms of the divorcing of the thing

450
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,359
and the symbol and.

451
00:22:25,319 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 5: The reality or the word in the reality. Go ahead,

452
00:22:28,319 --> 00:22:31,039
by the way, can you hear me? Yeah?

453
00:22:31,079 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 17: So this is the exact argument is making. This is

454
00:22:33,279 --> 00:22:36,000
why quote minding it's not.

455
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:36,559
Speaker 5: Going to work.

456
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 18: You can pull all.

457
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,079
Speaker 17: The quotes from the fathers like we're fine with words.

458
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:44,759
Speaker 9: Words aren't the problems they're meaning.

459
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 17: So when you have Augustinian and a lat kind of reformed.

460
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:53,599
Speaker 5: Views like you.

461
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 12: Just poured that.

462
00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 5: It's hard to hear you can can you speak up

463
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:04,519
a little bit? Sorry, Okay, I'm skiing long time? Uh

464
00:23:05,759 --> 00:23:07,160
those debating while he's skiing.

465
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 17: Yeah, I was actually just thinking about that on the lift.

466
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,400
I'm like, has it ever been done?

467
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 5: Debates? Ski the first.

468
00:23:15,839 --> 00:23:19,799
Speaker 19: Anyways, this is something these people never get, and in

469
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,559
part it's because they're not philosophically trained. They don't understand

470
00:23:23,599 --> 00:23:27,559
that there's these kind of presuppositions that are read into

471
00:23:27,599 --> 00:23:28,599
these kind of words.

472
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,400
Speaker 17: So what good is it is? If you just keep it,

473
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,519
uh cherry picking and quote minding the fathers, It's like,

474
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:37,400
the words.

475
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 8: Aren't the problem.

476
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 5: I have no problem.

477
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:44,599
Speaker 17: We none of us have any problems with people language, atonement, guilt,

478
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:45,680
these different things.

479
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 5: It's what does it mean?

480
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,839
Speaker 17: Does is it Augustinian kind of presuppositions? Is it denomenalism?

481
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:52,839
Speaker 9: For the reformers?

482
00:23:53,759 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 5: They never answer these questions.

483
00:23:56,759 --> 00:23:59,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, and uh, nikola that you say, so if you

484
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,400
want to do second last thing I want to point

485
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,160
out here is so if you go back to Hebrew six,

486
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,920
it says in chapter six. Now remember this is people

487
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:07,680
who want to go back to Judaism. I think that's

488
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,920
important for this context. He says, it is impossible for

489
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,359
those who are once enlightened and have tasted the heavenly Gift.

490
00:24:13,559 --> 00:24:16,960
So that's baptism is enlightenment, illumination, and then the tastes

491
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,240
the heavenly gift is the Eucharist and it become partakers

492
00:24:20,279 --> 00:24:23,319
of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the Good Word

493
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,119
or the powers of the age to come if they

494
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,839
fall away, to renew them to repentance, since they crucify

495
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,000
again the Son of God and put them to open shame.

496
00:24:31,279 --> 00:24:34,160
That is I think a specific reference to Judaism and

497
00:24:34,319 --> 00:24:37,480
Judaism's involvement in the Crucifixion. So I don't think that

498
00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:40,839
this is just Paul saying that, you know, anybody who

499
00:24:40,839 --> 00:24:43,880
ever falls away or doubts or you know, became a

500
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,160
seventeen year old atheist and then you know, like they

501
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,559
can never be saved again again.

502
00:24:48,599 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 5: It's just it's just really an.

503
00:24:49,599 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 4: Impossible interpretation, and it conflicts with what we see, you know,

504
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,680
in the in the life of the church anyway. So

505
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,440
I think what makes more sense is that Paul saying specifically,

506
00:24:58,519 --> 00:25:00,839
if you guys want to go back to Judaasm, you're

507
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,200
basically re crucifying Christ, because all the symbols of the

508
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,519
ceremonies of Judalism Judaism are about the crucifixion of Christ.

509
00:25:07,599 --> 00:25:08,559
Speaker 5: It would make no sense.

510
00:25:10,319 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 4: But we got let's say people are attacking some of

511
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,640
the Protestant dudes to come in debate here.

512
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 5: We got.

513
00:25:16,759 --> 00:25:19,079
Speaker 6: Some we get some prize, some Muslim something.

514
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:19,279
Speaker 2: Man.

515
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, if anybody disagree, you come to the headline.

516
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,079
Speaker 5: We're gonna go to all you guys. But uh, top kun,

517
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:33,559
what's up, dude? It's a crazy name. You want to

518
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:34,400
arm you? Dude?

519
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:35,759
Speaker 20: Hey, Jay, can you hear me?

520
00:25:36,039 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 5: Sir?

521
00:25:37,079 --> 00:25:39,759
Speaker 20: Hey, I just have two questions for you. So what

522
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,920
is your assessment on the Fourth Crusade? Who do you

523
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,039
think was truly responsible there? And do you know if

524
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,359
all of the Orthodox jurisdictions have forgiven the papacy?

525
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 5: Oh, I think the papacy was in the wrong.

526
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 4: But I don't know anything about jurisdictional forgivenesses, I really don't.

527
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 5: I don't know.

528
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 6: I don't knowin it means by forgiven the papacy.

529
00:26:04,039 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 20: Yeah, like like in the early two thousands, like the

530
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:11,440
papacy apologized, But I don't know, Like, what's the assessment

531
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,400
from the Orthodox jurisdictions.

532
00:26:13,759 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 5: I have no idea.

533
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 4: I mean it's a tough question. I mean that's more

534
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,400
of a you know, historical.

535
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:22,759
Speaker 5: Historian would be better at that.

536
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,519
Speaker 4: And I don't really honestly keep up with like a

537
00:26:25,519 --> 00:26:28,640
lot of like the church politics type stuff, so I

538
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:29,160
really don't know.

539
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 5: It's a great question, uh, laptop, what's up? Man. A

540
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:37,559
lot of those things.

541
00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 4: That are like gestures like that, they don't really mean

542
00:26:39,559 --> 00:26:41,359
much anyway. It's all just kind of done for like

543
00:26:42,039 --> 00:26:44,799
public consumption anyway, like the papacy saying.

544
00:26:44,519 --> 00:26:46,759
Speaker 5: Oh, sorry about because the papacy.

545
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 4: If you remember, they actually did an apology to the Templars.

546
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,119
Believe it or not, they issued an apology some years

547
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,599
back to the Templars, which I thought was kind of weird.

548
00:26:55,640 --> 00:27:01,960
But maybe the Papacy agrees with the Gnostic Templars now.

549
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,599
Speaker 5: So that's what they apologize. I don't know.

550
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 4: But guys who want to call in, you can call

551
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,200
in right there with the Twitter link. We got a

552
00:27:08,279 --> 00:27:10,400
nice we got almost a thousand over here on YouTube.

553
00:27:11,319 --> 00:27:13,119
You can call in right there on the X link.

554
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,480
And then if you want to support the stream through superchats,

555
00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:18,039
feel free to send a superchat through stream labs pin

556
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,079
in the chat and also in the show description, but

557
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:21,279
you can also send.

558
00:27:21,039 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 5: A super chat natively through YouTube if you'd like to laptop.

559
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:25,160
What's up, man, I'm you.

560
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:27,559
Speaker 9: Hey, say can you hear me?

561
00:27:27,799 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 5: Yeah? What's up?

562
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: Hey?

563
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 2: I just have a question.

564
00:27:30,319 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 21: Or I was listening to Molineu's live stream the other

565
00:27:32,799 --> 00:27:34,319
day and he said at the end that he's going

566
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:35,880
to be debating you coming in March.

567
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 5: Is that right, that's what's the plan. Yeah, we're having

568
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,359
a round two atheism debate with Molineu.

569
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 9: Yeah, very interesting.

570
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,759
Speaker 21: Okay, I the last person arched over tell you how

571
00:27:45,759 --> 00:27:47,920
to debate. But I've been listening to him for almost

572
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,960
like fifteen years. If there's any interest, I have lots

573
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,039
of notes of various videos he's made in timestamps and

574
00:27:55,079 --> 00:27:57,720
his arguments and all of your interest in anything. We

575
00:27:57,799 --> 00:27:58,799
just wanted to wish you good luck.

576
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 5: Did you hear our first debate?

577
00:28:01,279 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 22: Yes?

578
00:28:01,559 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 21: Yes, I downloaded that. And to be honest, it seems

579
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,519
like you guys are more like a friendly convo and

580
00:28:06,559 --> 00:28:08,680
he was trying to figure out seven from cold nuts,

581
00:28:08,759 --> 00:28:10,240
so it didn't seem like a debate.

582
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 5: Yeah.

583
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,759
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm looking forward to it's gonna be fun.

584
00:28:14,839 --> 00:28:17,000
I mean he was, you know, civil and cool and

585
00:28:17,039 --> 00:28:18,039
we had a good conversation.

586
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 5: So uh, hopefully it works out. You know, you never know.

587
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 4: A lot of time stuff gets planned and then it

588
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,480
falls through. But guys, if you want to support the stream,

589
00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:30,000
you can do so again through super chats. Uh, everybody's

590
00:28:30,039 --> 00:28:33,039
being stingy today, but thank you guys for the for

591
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,240
the meager super chats we got. We got a nice

592
00:28:36,519 --> 00:28:38,720
hype apologist on the stream with us.

593
00:28:38,759 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 5: He's over here. He's not mean, he's a nice guy.

594
00:28:41,799 --> 00:28:46,960
I'm mean. See he's smiling. Where's the super chats at?

595
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 6: That's what I'm saying.

596
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,599
Speaker 5: I'm mute, dude. And by the way, if he got a.

597
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,759
Speaker 6: Nice shirt on today, what do y'all doing with you guys?

598
00:28:52,799 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 5: Get nice and uh magnanimous. I will also perhaps share

599
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,920
the super chats with Nick. We'll see, Justinian, what's that

600
00:29:02,039 --> 00:29:06,839
man got on? Mute man?

601
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 9: Either?

602
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,079
Speaker 5: Good? What's on your mind?

603
00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: So nothing really on my mind right now, But just

604
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,119
to answer the question of the guy about, you know,

605
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:22,160
the Orthodox modern reaction to the papc's apology and to

606
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,720
the Fourth Crusade, I think Patriarch Bartholome, you back in

607
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,000
two thousand and four actually accepted the apology.

608
00:29:27,119 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 5: Okay, I didn't know that. Yeah, just a minor thing. No,

609
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:34,279
that's cool, appreciate that. Thank you.

610
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,039
Speaker 4: Like the collective wisdom of the audience and our audience

611
00:29:39,119 --> 00:29:40,920
is like super high a Q, so we always get

612
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,839
like really nice solid answers and intel from the audience.

613
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 9: Gesture by the way.

614
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's a good point too, is like

615
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:51,960
when they do this kind of stuff, I mean, it's

616
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,839
really just for optics and like, like you said, humanist motives,

617
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:57,799
I think, is that what you're saying.

618
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's a communism.

619
00:30:02,359 --> 00:30:04,759
Speaker 4: I mean I saw a humanist. I think it's a humanists.

620
00:30:04,759 --> 00:30:07,519
You're saying a humanist motives. Yeah, pretty much pretty much.

621
00:30:07,559 --> 00:30:10,559
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's I mean, I know I've.

622
00:30:10,359 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 14: Heard so, I can't remember when it was. You remember

623
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:19,759
like years back, father Trenham had given a list of

624
00:30:19,759 --> 00:30:25,640
stuff that needed to be corrected before the union could

625
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:26,200
ever happen.

626
00:30:26,759 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 9: He gave like his own list of things.

627
00:30:28,519 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 4: I know, I didn't know he did that, but but yeah,

628
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,119
there's a lot of those kind of lists like that.

629
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:32,799
Speaker 5: Going back to.

630
00:30:34,279 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 14: On one of the lists, is that particular thing would

631
00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:42,119
be the Fourth Crusader interest, you know that that would

632
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,160
have to be apologized for so or or that would

633
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,480
have to be corrected in some way. I'm going from

634
00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:52,200
memory here, but basically I'm guessing.

635
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 9: In the academic world of whether it would be.

636
00:30:54,519 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 14: I don't know anything about Orthodox academics, but in Roman

637
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,799
Catholics is an academic that's still like a debated thing

638
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:03,960
with the Fourth Crusade.

639
00:31:04,039 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 5: So yeah, I appreciate that.

640
00:31:07,599 --> 00:31:09,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, I need to We should probably do like a

641
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,880
deep dive eventually on you know, the Crusades and Byzantium,

642
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,880
because we've never really done that on this on the channel,

643
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:15,640
and it'd be fun to do.

644
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 5: Paul, Yeah, now, yeah, exactly.

645
00:31:19,759 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 4: We had to do a little bit of bagging, a

646
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,480
little bit of ling, a little bit of panhandling and

647
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,240
grifting on the channel, and then we got some super

648
00:31:26,319 --> 00:31:28,039
chats role and we'll read those in just a second.

649
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 5: Paulse what's up man? Hey, Jay?

650
00:31:31,839 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 9: I remember a couple debates to go.

651
00:31:34,359 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 16: I forget who was that you're debating, but you kept

652
00:31:36,279 --> 00:31:40,519
going back to observable sense, trying to get some common

653
00:31:40,559 --> 00:31:41,160
sense into.

654
00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 5: The guy that you're debating.

655
00:31:42,079 --> 00:31:44,559
Speaker 16: But I would encourage you to not forget the unobservable

656
00:31:44,599 --> 00:31:46,920
power of unobservable nonsense.

657
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 5: Okay, I'm not sure which debate was that?

658
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 4: The debate with Jake where we were debating empiricism and

659
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,319
he was trying to argue that even to me, it

660
00:31:55,359 --> 00:31:58,640
was an empiricist and God's an empirical being with a

661
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,920
body and all this nonsense, or was it a different

662
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:02,599
debate exactly nonsense?

663
00:32:02,759 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 5: How you nailed it? Well? Thank you? Yeah.

664
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 4: I mean Jake is kind of a nonsensical person and

665
00:32:08,079 --> 00:32:09,759
when it comes to a lot of this stuff, and

666
00:32:09,839 --> 00:32:12,799
I think, Nick, you've had some interactions with Jake. I

667
00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:15,119
think the chat is pointing out that you got Jake

668
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,200
to admit that there's ninety nine ontologies in God.

669
00:32:18,359 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 5: So what was that debate and how where'd that go down?

670
00:32:22,359 --> 00:32:25,599
Speaker 7: So basically, what was good he heard? I guess that

671
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,440
I was like the top Trinity apologist. I never said that.

672
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,599
I don't know where you got that from. But he

673
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,599
was like, oh, this God logic teacher, so and so

674
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,160
he's like, let's set up a debate. I was like,

675
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,359
of course he wanted debate LPT CAUs the only thing

676
00:32:36,359 --> 00:32:38,279
he knows. I said, you know what, fine, we can

677
00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:40,319
do LPT, just you know. I emailed him, asked for

678
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,759
some times. He's being a prima donna about it, wouldn't

679
00:32:43,839 --> 00:32:45,279
like email me back. I was like, we don't need

680
00:32:45,279 --> 00:32:47,839
to email about this whatever. And then eventually one d

681
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,319
that went live and he said, you know what, I'm

682
00:32:49,359 --> 00:32:50,680
just gonna pop up on his live and try to

683
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:51,599
catch him by surprise.

684
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:53,759
Speaker 6: He came up my live, tried to press me on

685
00:32:53,759 --> 00:32:54,240
the LPT.

686
00:32:54,839 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 7: I refuted it, and then I ran a consistency argument

687
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,599
because he said, well, don't you believe at the attributes

688
00:33:01,599 --> 00:33:03,680
in God and the energies are ontologically distinct?

689
00:33:03,759 --> 00:33:07,559
Speaker 6: I said, no, do you believe that? He said yeah.

690
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,759
I was like, so your guy has ninety nine ontologies.

691
00:33:09,759 --> 00:33:13,319
Speaker 7: He's like, yeah, he has multiple real ontologies. I'm like, wow,

692
00:33:13,359 --> 00:33:14,200
isn't that something?

693
00:33:14,359 --> 00:33:15,319
Speaker 6: And then I pressed them on.

694
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:16,759
Speaker 5: I was shocked.

695
00:33:16,799 --> 00:33:18,079
Speaker 6: I really thought he was better than this.

696
00:33:18,519 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 7: I pressed him on some random stuff because he was like, yeah,

697
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:22,200
there's a real distinction.

698
00:33:22,279 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 6: I was like, how are you using real distinction here?

699
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 7: Are you using like a sort of Eastern sense of

700
00:33:26,279 --> 00:33:29,119
real distinction or using like a scholastic like major minor

701
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,039
real distinction And he didn't know what the difference was.

702
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:33,839
He didn't know what the difference between a form one

703
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,880
real distinction was either, and so it just kind of

704
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,240
exposed him of like not knowing what he's talking about

705
00:33:39,279 --> 00:33:39,599
at all.

706
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:40,319
Speaker 5: Yeah.

707
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 4: I remember when we did our debate and he stacked

708
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,279
up the books that he had read, and he was

709
00:33:44,319 --> 00:33:46,799
trying to brag that he had done a way more

710
00:33:46,839 --> 00:33:49,440
research and orthodoxically than I did on Islam. And I

711
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,039
was like, all those books look absolutely brand new. They

712
00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:53,799
don't look like they've even been touched. Dude, I don't know.

713
00:33:54,319 --> 00:33:57,279
Speaker 5: I think he bought the book there, he literally said.

714
00:33:57,319 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 7: When I was sitting there in the debate, I was like,

715
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,599
what's the difference in real formalistinction? He was like, I

716
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,799
have a You could hear him like, get up from

717
00:34:03,799 --> 00:34:06,319
the desk. He's like, I actually have a Scholastic dictionary

718
00:34:06,359 --> 00:34:07,640
right in front of me. You don't think I know

719
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,039
what that is. I'm like, no, yeah, I don't think

720
00:34:10,079 --> 00:34:10,280
you do.

721
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 6: Can you tell me?

722
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 7: And he just started throwing ad homs at me and yeah,

723
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:14,960
I don't think he reads, Yeah, it was I don't.

724
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 5: I don't.

725
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 4: I mean he'll read a little bit, he'll read a

726
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:18,760
paper here and there, really what he does. I've noticed

727
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,400
Jake's strategy is to basically, anytime there's a debate between

728
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,119
say a Catholic and Orthodox, or an Orthodox and a Protestant,

729
00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:28,239
he'll just go and like write down the best arguments

730
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,679
that say a Protestant made against an Orthodox, or a

731
00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:34,280
Catholic made against an Orthodox. And if he's debating an Orthodox,

732
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,880
he'll just use those arguments the Protestants and the Catholics

733
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:37,920
use against Orthodox.

734
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,599
Speaker 7: So well, you'll notice too if he's debating Orthodox and

735
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:43,599
anytime he debated an Orthodox, I'll give you one hundred

736
00:34:43,599 --> 00:34:45,440
dollars if he doesn't do it, if he doesn't.

737
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 6: Appeal to Bo Branch. Oh, your buddy, Bo Branson said this.

738
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 7: I'm like, dude, Bo Brixton is not your home yet, right,

739
00:34:51,559 --> 00:34:52,760
I keep bringing him.

740
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:54,599
Speaker 5: Up well, speaking of homies, like it's funny.

741
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 4: He was rating Christian Apologists and he went to me

742
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,000
and I thought for sure he was going to put

743
00:34:59,039 --> 00:35:00,920
me in the garbage here, and he was like.

744
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,039
Speaker 11: I'm gonna put Jay up at the top because you

745
00:35:05,119 --> 00:35:07,719
know what, you know what he goes at the top.

746
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 5: He's elite, tire. Even though I think I won the.

747
00:35:12,119 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 6: Debate, I couldn't believe she was going below me, right,

748
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:19,480
I thought, in.

749
00:35:19,519 --> 00:35:22,079
Speaker 4: The trash can, dude. But all right, so we got

750
00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:23,760
a couple of super chests. Readose, then we'll go to

751
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,960
the next call. Let's see, Mattie says, Nick, Muslim Lantern

752
00:35:28,199 --> 00:35:30,039
is live calling out Christians.

753
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,119
Speaker 5: So yeah, if guys, if you guys are in the chat,

754
00:35:32,119 --> 00:35:32,760
the way to do.

755
00:35:32,679 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 4: This is to get hit up Muslim Lantern in his

756
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,119
audience and tell them give them this chat, this link

757
00:35:39,159 --> 00:35:40,320
to the space on to call in.

758
00:35:41,559 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 5: Mattie says, again, do the Crusades.

759
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 4: That would be a great lecture series. Yeah, we'll see.

760
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:47,760
It's it'll take me a lot of time to do it.

761
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:57,679
Speaker 5: But Gamer, go ahead. Did you want to say something

762
00:35:56,199 --> 00:36:03,079
that gamer tend Jay. I have a question unrelated to

763
00:36:03,119 --> 00:36:03,679
the stream.

764
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 4: I recently discovered you, and I find Orthodoxy has a

765
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,519
consistent worldview and it's coherent and it's very inviting. What

766
00:36:11,639 --> 00:36:15,119
is the Orthodox position on stabs and what are the

767
00:36:15,159 --> 00:36:16,440
good resources for that?

768
00:36:16,599 --> 00:36:18,519
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't think the Orthodox Church.

769
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 4: Is going to give you a position on private moral

770
00:36:23,079 --> 00:36:26,519
you know, like medical choices, but I would say that

771
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,079
I mean, unfortunately, we saw a lot of bad advice

772
00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:36,360
in the last coof period years. So I mean, I

773
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,760
would say the church was half and half on specifically

774
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:45,360
the experimental coof stabby. But I think many solid Orthodox

775
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,800
people would have a disagreement with stabbys that come from

776
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:54,000
a cell line related to you know, boarded fetal tissue

777
00:36:54,039 --> 00:36:56,920
type stuff. But I'm gonna leave it at that because

778
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:02,400
we are on YouTube. But Knees Script says, for two dollars,

779
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,519
I'm broke. We gave all of our money to Alex.

780
00:37:06,559 --> 00:37:11,679
Do you mean Alex Jones, Alex O'Connor, Alex Sanders. I

781
00:37:11,679 --> 00:37:14,639
gotta wonder which Alex man suko twenty dollars Nick is

782
00:37:14,679 --> 00:37:17,519
that homie? He got that wicked jake to admit all

783
00:37:17,599 --> 00:37:19,920
I has ninety nine ontologies exactly.

784
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 5: That's a good add mission, by the way.

785
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,760
Speaker 7: And they're also admitting when I was debating the Orthodox

786
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,320
mism of the day, they admitted their God is spatially extended.

787
00:37:26,519 --> 00:37:29,199
They've been admitting that rather rather often lately, that you

788
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,239
could literally take a rocket ship up to their God

789
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:32,800
if you had a powerful enough one.

790
00:37:33,079 --> 00:37:37,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's he's a he's a dude, like the Mormon God,

791
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:41,199
the Father, like he's like he's like a buff you know, dude,

792
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:42,800
Like my song says.

793
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,559
Speaker 5: He's got confuses me? Is the a told body? Baby,

794
00:37:45,599 --> 00:37:47,239
he's got a very tone body.

795
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,119
Speaker 7: I think he's like elastic man though, because they always say,

796
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:51,159
I say where is he?

797
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 6: They just say you point up?

798
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 7: But I'm like, if I'm on this side of earth

799
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,400
and you on that side of the earth, you go off?

800
00:37:56,559 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 5: Is he?

801
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 14: Like?

802
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:57,199
Speaker 5: Rap?

803
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 14: Yeah? Like?

804
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,599
Speaker 5: What uh? Is it? Who is it? In Fat and

805
00:38:01,639 --> 00:38:03,960
Fantastic four? Is it the chick the one that stretch you?

806
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:04,440
I forget?

807
00:38:04,559 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 4: So they worship the fan allah is the deity of

808
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:08,599
Fantastic four?

809
00:38:10,159 --> 00:38:13,760
Speaker 5: Landing fifty dollars, Thank you so much, Landont Jay. Yeah,

810
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,519
that's a fat super chat. I appreciate that. Zane twenty dollars.

811
00:38:17,679 --> 00:38:22,519
Here you go, boy, got that Wiga laugh, twenty dollars.

812
00:38:22,599 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 4: Nice Raven says for five dollars, can you actually heal

813
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:26,320
my gout?

814
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 5: If you can? That's cool.

815
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,639
Speaker 4: Yes, put your hand on the screen and say a

816
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:35,280
prayer to h Saint pat Robertson and it will heal

817
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:36,079
your gout?

818
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 9: Is it?

819
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 6: Mister fantastic?

820
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 9: Is that who it is?

821
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:39,599
Speaker 6: I think it is?

822
00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 5: Is that who stretchy? Yeah?

823
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:41,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it is.

824
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:48,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is. Okay, let's see Griff, two dollars. Thank

825
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:49,000
you so much, Griff.

826
00:38:49,639 --> 00:38:52,559
Speaker 4: Our favorite super chatter here, Banana up the butt says

827
00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:55,719
for ten dollars, Jay, you should read Edwin Hunt's book

828
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:56,239
about the.

829
00:38:56,559 --> 00:38:58,679
Speaker 5: He was always giving me book recommendations. They're gonna write

830
00:38:58,679 --> 00:39:01,360
that down about the Peruzzi family.

831
00:39:01,599 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 4: They're one of the founders, and they're one of the

832
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,800
funders of the Crusades, and all the conflicts need funders,

833
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:08,760
as you've discussed for years.

834
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, I didn't actually know about that, so I should

835
00:39:10,519 --> 00:39:11,000
check that out.

836
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:18,079
Speaker 4: The twenty nine system twenty dollars. Ecumenism, more like Cukumanism,

837
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,559
pretty much taint nothing twenty dollars. Is it problematic for

838
00:39:22,639 --> 00:39:26,079
ruman Catholics when they call Saint Photius a heretic despite

839
00:39:26,519 --> 00:39:29,159
his communion with Rome until his death, meaning that you

840
00:39:29,159 --> 00:39:32,480
could be a practicing Catholic and unknowingly a heretic, Well

841
00:39:32,519 --> 00:39:34,840
they would, I mean, if you're a trad They were

842
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,440
going to argue that. But the problem is that since

843
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,599
Father de Vornik's work and since John Paul the Second,

844
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:47,000
they have rehabilitated the three Great or the Great hierarchs. Right,

845
00:39:47,039 --> 00:39:53,199
So Photius, Marcovaphesis and Gregor Palomas are now considered saints

846
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,800
within the Roman Catholic communion. So that's the key sort

847
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,559
of contradiction. To really grab the Roman calm, I can say, look,

848
00:40:00,599 --> 00:40:01,840
you guys are totally inconsistent.

849
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 5: Griff two dollars.

850
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 4: When you're gonna do that Resident Orbital gameplay stream? Uh, well,

851
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,960
you know, I tried Cyberpunk and it was a little

852
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,199
weird because I didn't remember the controls. But I did

853
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,639
play a bunch of Cyberpunk yesterday, so now I've got

854
00:40:17,639 --> 00:40:20,719
the controls mastered, so I might do another Cyberpunk stream.

855
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,000
But when the new Resident Evil comes out, I will

856
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,119
GameStream that Anthony five dollars.

857
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,559
Speaker 5: It's a swoll dude with turbine floating in space.

858
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 4: Allah, I'm going to no, I just I ain't got

859
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:38,239
around to it.

860
00:40:38,559 --> 00:40:40,639
Speaker 5: That's fine, Yeah, I heard of everybody's been saying I

861
00:40:40,639 --> 00:40:43,199
need to play that one wink three dollars.

862
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,280
Speaker 4: How would you respond to the idea that Jesus's sacrifice

863
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:53,760
was purely for guilt over creation because the Father saw

864
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,880
the creation as evil. No, that would be totally gnostic.

865
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:01,360
And again, like creation is declared good in Genesis, right,

866
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:06,280
so why would God need to be placated or reconciled

867
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,679
to the created order because the creat order is evil.

868
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,239
That's sounds like a more gnostic version of PSA.

869
00:41:12,159 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 5: All right, let's go.

870
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:20,199
Speaker 4: To Baby what's up dude, Baby Moon, You're on the

871
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,039
air with Jay and Nick.

872
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 23: Hey, Jay, So I've just started listening to you a

873
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,840
few months ago, and oftentime we'll hear you talking with Protestants,

874
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:32,800
or let's call them debates, which sid I'll turn into

875
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,440
much debates, but you'll often refer to where did Protestant

876
00:41:36,559 --> 00:41:39,159
get their account of the Bible? And you just never

877
00:41:39,199 --> 00:41:41,599
really get pressed past that. So I'm not here to

878
00:41:41,599 --> 00:41:43,480
press you on it. I'm not a position to baate you,

879
00:41:43,559 --> 00:41:44,960
but I've always wanted to.

880
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 5: Hear the answer to the question. So if we go

881
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:48,159
back to.

882
00:41:48,079 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 23: Say Martin Luther, as if we consider him kind of

883
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:56,119
pre eminent reformer, right, so I would I would lay

884
00:41:56,119 --> 00:41:59,639
it out as, Hey, he wasn't trying to disregard everything

885
00:41:59,679 --> 00:42:03,079
about the church, right, it was about a reformation, not

886
00:42:03,119 --> 00:42:07,119
a not a scrapping of total church doctrine. So where

887
00:42:07,199 --> 00:42:09,320
the canon of the Bible would have just fallen over

888
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,639
with him. So I mainly want to hear what would

889
00:42:11,679 --> 00:42:13,440
be your answer to that objection.

890
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 4: Well, the problem is that Luther didn't agree with the canon.

891
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,239
So the canon that was already normative in the West

892
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,800
and the East included the Deutero Canon, and Luther specifically

893
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,079
didn't want the duerocanonical text because he thought they quote

894
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,159
taught against the Word of God and against the Gospels.

895
00:42:30,199 --> 00:42:33,039
So for example, if you have you know, prayers for

896
00:42:33,079 --> 00:42:35,119
the dead, if you have you know, texts to talk

897
00:42:35,159 --> 00:42:38,639
about the necessity of works, those Luther saw all of

898
00:42:38,679 --> 00:42:41,760
those texts within the Duro canon as problematic, and so

899
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,800
he had a specifical, specific theological motivation.

900
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,199
Speaker 5: And I've read like six Luther books.

901
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 4: So I'm not I'm not pulling this out of my butt,

902
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,760
Like this is literally what he argues. Like in his Commentaryngulations,

903
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,199
he says that anything in the Old Testament, even that

904
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,719
doesn't quote preach Gospel of Free Grace, he has a

905
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:00,840
problem with. He says things like he wants to punch

906
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,599
Moses' teeth out. So ultimately Luther's problem isn't even with

907
00:43:05,639 --> 00:43:09,840
like the issue of you know this or that verse

908
00:43:10,079 --> 00:43:14,679
in you know, the Deutero canon. Luther's problem is more

909
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,239
so the any of the texts in the Torah or

910
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,119
anything that he thinks teaches quote law and works.

911
00:43:21,559 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 5: So there's a pretty.

912
00:43:23,119 --> 00:43:30,079
Speaker 4: Radical dichotomy position in Luther between grace versus works, law

913
00:43:30,199 --> 00:43:34,599
versus grace, et cetera, free will versus you know, grace.

914
00:43:34,679 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 5: Those are all radical dialectics in Luther.

915
00:43:38,199 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 4: So so the answer is that Luther specifically didn't carry

916
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,360
the cannon over he rejected the canon that was normative.

917
00:43:48,639 --> 00:43:49,280
Speaker 19: Okay, I think this.

918
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 23: Is this is a very fair answer. I thought you

919
00:43:51,039 --> 00:43:53,679
might go that direction since he rejected some of the books.

920
00:43:53,679 --> 00:43:55,559
So let me go back and say, what if I

921
00:43:55,639 --> 00:43:56,599
removed Martin.

922
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 9: Luther from now we take his.

923
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 23: Like finite objections out and just look at the reformers

924
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,800
as a body who did ultimately carry I mean, most

925
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,960
of the canon over rights section of it.

926
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 4: Well, no, I mean most of all the Reformers are

927
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,079
pretty united in rejecting the duro canon.

928
00:44:13,119 --> 00:44:16,079
Speaker 5: I mean except for us High Church Anglicans. Like High Church.

929
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,079
Speaker 4: Anglicans didn't really think the duo canon was a big deal.

930
00:44:19,119 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 5: That didn't make a huge deal about it.

931
00:44:20,519 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 4: But uh, and that's part of the reason why the

932
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,000
Duduro canon the apocrypha is in the sixteen eleven King

933
00:44:27,119 --> 00:44:33,159
James version. So, but the rest of them, Calvin rejected it, uh,

934
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,840
you know as Wingley rejected the dud So like the

935
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,559
other quote reformers. And that's the problem with saying that

936
00:44:39,559 --> 00:44:44,320
there is this body of reformers. They disagreed with each

937
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,880
other and killed each other over things like infant baptism,

938
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,519
So there isn't really in my view, well.

939
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,159
Speaker 5: There's not really a body of there's not a body

940
00:44:55,199 --> 00:44:55,880
of reformers.

941
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,599
Speaker 4: There's a bunch of people who you know, reform, but

942
00:44:58,639 --> 00:45:02,719
then they go to the point of really I mean again,

943
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,239
and like Father Josiah says in his books, like some

944
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,159
of the what the reformers are saying is correct. It's

945
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,079
just that their answers of like you know, low church

946
00:45:11,159 --> 00:45:15,559
stuff and rejecting quote rituals, all the stuff that they

947
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,400
go towards goes way further than what Orthodoxy would have

948
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:21,719
considered a real reformation.

949
00:45:24,079 --> 00:45:25,760
Speaker 23: And what would you say that would have been if

950
00:45:26,519 --> 00:45:30,079
what would Orthodoxy have considered quote real reformation.

951
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,119
Speaker 4: Well, all the main issues that we would have with

952
00:45:33,199 --> 00:45:36,719
the papacy and with you know, Roman Catholic ecclesiology and

953
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:37,559
Roman Catholic.

954
00:45:38,199 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 5: You know, they had a lot of these excesses that.

955
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,199
Speaker 4: You know Luther talked about when he was critiquing Tetsul

956
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:48,840
the monk, and you know they have indulgences and the

957
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,840
merits of the saints, all those things Orthodoxy would disagree with.

958
00:45:54,159 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 23: Okay, Well, Jaylas said, I knew I was gonna be

959
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:57,639
a softball question.

960
00:45:57,719 --> 00:45:59,039
Speaker 9: So I appreciate you taking that.

961
00:45:59,199 --> 00:46:01,559
Speaker 4: Great questions pretty should always happy to answer those. I

962
00:46:01,599 --> 00:46:04,920
appreciate you having a good attitude, not being a jerk.

963
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:09,280
You were cool about it, calling what's up man, Nick?

964
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,800
If you want to say anything on Protestant Church history

965
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:13,639
or Luthor, feel free and.

966
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 6: Hopefully we get some opposition in here. Man, I think

967
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:18,000
that we must have ran through them.

968
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:19,679
Speaker 4: I think I've run through all the ops. That's what

969
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:21,360
I was trying to tell you, Like, I don't expect

970
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:23,639
many more. I remember the last some of Muslim.

971
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 5: Came in here.

972
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 4: Man, It's probably eight months since a Muslim came in here.

973
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 5: Colin, what's up? You want? I'm mute? Are there?

974
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:31,760
Speaker 3: I was looking to clarify some of your views in

975
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:33,360
the flood and possibly.

976
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 9: Debate you.

977
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 5: There you go. Okay, so do you think.

978
00:46:39,079 --> 00:46:41,679
Speaker 24: That so you say that it's a global flood, do

979
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:43,159
you think that it killed everybody?

980
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 4: I mean, I think we're we're intended to think that.

981
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,400
I mean, unless there was some something that we're just

982
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,159
simply not told. I think the text gives us the

983
00:46:54,199 --> 00:46:56,599
impression that, yeah, everybody but Noah's family.

984
00:46:58,719 --> 00:46:59,039
Speaker 5: Yeah.

985
00:46:59,079 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 24: So, I mean, I guess your point that every myth

986
00:47:01,639 --> 00:47:04,480
has the story. But if you think of even like

987
00:47:04,639 --> 00:47:07,679
Native American myths, in order for that to be a myth,

988
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:12,360
it would have to have survivors, you know, in the culture.

989
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 4: But the point of our view of how that happens

990
00:47:16,119 --> 00:47:20,119
is that when Noah's sons repopulate the earth, we find

991
00:47:20,119 --> 00:47:24,519
out very early in Genesis that Noah's sons already, you know,

992
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,239
engage in quite a bit of wickedness. So what happens

993
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:30,239
is as the earth begins to repopulate.

994
00:47:31,199 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 5: That you get this idea that.

995
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 4: The nations fall back into all the same problems that

996
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,960
they were already involved in with idolatry. So, in other words,

997
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:47,360
that seed story immediately gets tainted with false revelation. And

998
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,760
that's why we would say that pretty much I did

999
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,039
a I'll give an example. I did a talk specifically

1000
00:47:52,079 --> 00:47:57,320
on this topic of what's true in ancient religions from

1001
00:47:57,519 --> 00:48:00,880
Genesis forwards. So in other words, we have revelation and

1002
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,119
we would say in scripture that kind of looks back

1003
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:07,119
at the you know, ancient world and the the you know,

1004
00:48:07,199 --> 00:48:11,960
pre flood prediluvian world. But there were civilizations and cultures

1005
00:48:12,039 --> 00:48:15,679
after the flood that would have maintained this sort of

1006
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,639
basic body of knowledge that they had of Okay, yeah,

1007
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,840
my descendant you know, Noah, my great great granddad, Noah.

1008
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,639
You know, he was with the family in the in

1009
00:48:25,679 --> 00:48:28,559
the boat and they made it through the great deluge

1010
00:48:28,679 --> 00:48:31,360
and then the gods came down and helped, right. So

1011
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:35,159
in other words, it's the post Noaic descendants that would

1012
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:39,960
have tainted the mythology, tainted the story with mythology. And

1013
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,559
it's not just the flood that shows us that or

1014
00:48:42,599 --> 00:48:45,480
he loves Okay, it's not just it's not just a

1015
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:46,599
flood that shows us that.

1016
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:47,679
Speaker 5: Uh.

1017
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 4: If you look at this interview that I did with

1018
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,000
the serfham Hamilton some years ago, we actually got into

1019
00:48:52,039 --> 00:48:56,559
how even pagan religions or world religions, like even some

1020
00:48:56,639 --> 00:48:59,039
of them maintain and I don't mean this in a

1021
00:48:59,079 --> 00:49:01,199
Zeitgeist type of thing, but I'm saying like they have

1022
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,559
seeds of truth, right, they have the seeds of the

1023
00:49:04,679 --> 00:49:06,079
original you know, to.

1024
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 5: Adam at Man and Woman.

1025
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 4: They have the seeds of you know, some of these

1026
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:17,920
Genesis stories in a very corrupted, paganized way. And the

1027
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,119
answer to that is that, yes, the descendants of Noah

1028
00:49:21,119 --> 00:49:23,599
that had that that then fell back into idolatry and

1029
00:49:23,639 --> 00:49:26,840
sort of mixed up the stories with superstition. That's that's

1030
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:36,599
I don't know why you left. But anyway, David, what's up? Hey,

1031
00:49:36,599 --> 00:49:36,920
what's up?

1032
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:38,039
Speaker 9: Man?

1033
00:49:38,159 --> 00:49:40,159
Speaker 5: Hey?

1034
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 20: Jay?

1035
00:49:40,519 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 9: I just wanted to say I've been listening to you.

1036
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,599
Speaker 25: For a long time now, and I'm I'm an Orthodox

1037
00:49:45,639 --> 00:49:48,639
at catechuman and I saw you Ron.

1038
00:49:48,639 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 9: I just wanted to say thank.

1039
00:49:49,559 --> 00:49:52,159
Speaker 25: You for a lot that you have been able to

1040
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:53,880
share and produce with YouTube channel.

1041
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 5: Thank you.

1042
00:49:54,559 --> 00:49:58,679
Speaker 25: But other than that, being a catechumen, I have some

1043
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,840
conversations with some of my friends who are Protestant.

1044
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 17: And I had to admit that I don't.

1045
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 25: Actually know the Orthodox Church's view of like tribulation and

1046
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,440
like post tribulation and pre tribulation.

1047
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,280
Speaker 9: So I was wondering if you could comment on that.

1048
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 5: For me real quick.

1049
00:50:14,679 --> 00:50:18,079
Speaker 4: I mean, there's not like a set view of how

1050
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,320
we know everything's going to go down. We don't have

1051
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:26,199
this like seven year you know, premillennial rapture type eschatology

1052
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,519
or whatever. So I mean partial preterism is the norm

1053
00:50:29,559 --> 00:50:32,320
amongst most of the Eastern Church fathers. You can look

1054
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,360
up at an audio book that's from Jordanville Monasteries called

1055
00:50:35,559 --> 00:50:38,159
Apostacy and Antichrist, and that will kind of lay out

1056
00:50:38,199 --> 00:50:41,119
the basic structure of what most of the elders and

1057
00:50:41,119 --> 00:50:43,079
saints and church fathers say about the end times. But

1058
00:50:44,079 --> 00:50:49,039
I've found that video that the way that I think

1059
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,519
this is, while it's almost fifty thousand views, me and

1060
00:50:51,559 --> 00:50:57,119
Saraphim Hamilton talked years ago about the seeds of the

1061
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,960
of Christ in the in the pagan religions, and this

1062
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,239
would apply obviously to the Noah story too. So there

1063
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,440
is that link right there in the chat. Nick, did

1064
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:08,119
you want to say anything on any of that?

1065
00:51:09,159 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 7: Not on that I was gonna say though about the

1066
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,920
previous conversation you had about the flood, whether or not

1067
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,639
it's global or local, it doesn't really it doesn't really

1068
00:51:16,679 --> 00:51:19,079
change anything in Orthodoxy, right, Like, I mean, it doesn't

1069
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:21,960
say it was local and it wasn't global, like that's

1070
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:23,920
what science came out with. It wouldn't really change anything

1071
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,760
in Orthodoxy. There's a good book on how they line

1072
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,159
up with that. It's called Navigating Genesis by Hugh Ross.

1073
00:51:31,199 --> 00:51:34,599
He's an astrophysicist. Goes into how it can be either

1074
00:51:34,639 --> 00:51:36,599
local or global and it wouldn't matter either way.

1075
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember reading that book years ago. I've read

1076
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,119
other Hugh Ross books. My one criticism of Hugh Rocks

1077
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:47,800
Hugh Ross is yeah, he's a theistic evolutionist, which I

1078
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,960
would that perspective, but yeah, uh yeah, I think I mean,

1079
00:51:52,039 --> 00:51:55,559
even yeah, if if conceivably it was local, would that

1080
00:51:55,679 --> 00:51:58,199
necessarily be a problem I have.

1081
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 5: I don't think so, but I'd have to I did

1082
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:01,239
to think on it more.

1083
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 4: But let's see eating three dollars apart from the Orthodox

1084
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:10,880
Church granting autocephally to excuse me, apart from the ep

1085
00:52:12,079 --> 00:52:15,119
intending to grant autocephally to the Church of Montenegro that's

1086
00:52:15,159 --> 00:52:16,960
done for the state department, has nothing to do with

1087
00:52:17,119 --> 00:52:20,440
because of church stuff. There are talks in Bosnia about

1088
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,079
forming a new Orthodox Church of Bosnia. Well, that's what

1089
00:52:24,119 --> 00:52:27,400
they do when they divide up these countries in terms

1090
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:29,400
of like the Color Revolution style stuff.

1091
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 5: The religion is part of it. So that's what this

1092
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,519
is about. Second actuality three dollars, Jay.

1093
00:52:34,519 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 4: Are you familiar with King Gillette? He wrote books and

1094
00:52:40,519 --> 00:52:44,039
he's the founder of Gillette Razors. He was a famous internationalist. No,

1095
00:52:44,079 --> 00:52:46,760
I didn't actually know that. I was rewatching the Anthony

1096
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:49,880
Sutton lectures and he mentioned that these are some of

1097
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:54,599
the first texts that would mention, oh, corporate fabian socialism. No,

1098
00:52:54,679 --> 00:52:56,519
I actually should read that, because I didn't.

1099
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 5: Know that he was.

1100
00:52:57,679 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 4: I didn't even know that mind accents a dollar. He says, yes,

1101
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,159
thank you. Mind tech t r says two dollars. Orb

1102
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:09,440
so orbs are twenty bucks. Alex is for fifty dollars.

1103
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 5: Do Matthew McConaughey voice and tell me why space is

1104
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:14,639
faking gay? I tell you right now. I take my

1105
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:18,320
linking up into space one day and and man, I

1106
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,320
just found I felt like I was just gay as

1107
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:21,760
hell when I was up there. They was trying to

1108
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:25,679
touch my butt. It's all just that big black holes

1109
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:27,960
and I know this black hose A bunch of gaye.

1110
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:32,039
Conquistador bro, Is that so good?

1111
00:53:32,119 --> 00:53:32,760
Speaker 6: That's crazy?

1112
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:37,039
Speaker 4: Conquistador five dollars. If Orthodoxy is the fullness of the Church,

1113
00:53:37,639 --> 00:53:41,039
why did God allow Spain to evangelize the New world

1114
00:53:41,079 --> 00:53:46,320
to Catholicism? What about these other peoples and cultures before Orthodoxy?

1115
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,280
Speaker 5: Does Orthodoxy except to reject the black legend about Spain?

1116
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 4: Well, I mean you could ask that same question about

1117
00:53:52,159 --> 00:53:53,920
I mean, if you were a Roman Catholic, you could say,

1118
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:57,800
why did God allow Orthodoxy to you know, permeate all

1119
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,679
these other countries that Rome. Didn't God allow Protestantism to

1120
00:54:01,679 --> 00:54:06,320
become the norm in you know, the Protestant Reformation countries.

1121
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,760
I mean, we don't know the divine providence and why

1122
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:11,639
God allowed or didn't allow, But really none of that

1123
00:54:11,679 --> 00:54:14,119
has anything to do with proving which ones true or false.

1124
00:54:14,199 --> 00:54:17,159
It's a it's a very terrible line of argumentation. I'm

1125
00:54:17,199 --> 00:54:18,400
not trying to be mean to you. I'm just saying

1126
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,159
I wouldn't I wouldn't. This doesn't prove anything. It's kind

1127
00:54:21,159 --> 00:54:23,000
of that, you know, the Roman colities love to go

1128
00:54:23,039 --> 00:54:25,719
in this line of you know, like, oh, we conquered

1129
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,559
this and that and we beat the Muslims here and there,

1130
00:54:28,599 --> 00:54:29,920
therefore we're the true church.

1131
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 5: Well that's a double edged store.

1132
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 4: That's a stupid argument because you realize, like the Muslims

1133
00:54:34,039 --> 00:54:37,199
are now conquering the Roman Callolicy church. So I mean

1134
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:40,360
the Rome is saying that Muslims and Christians worship with

1135
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:42,079
the same God and they're gonna have a you know,

1136
00:54:42,119 --> 00:54:45,119
Abi Dhabi faith center. So wait, does that now mean

1137
00:54:45,119 --> 00:54:47,440
that Rome isn't true? If you use that line of argmentation,

1138
00:54:48,079 --> 00:54:50,639
it's just a bad line of argument. I don't know

1139
00:54:50,679 --> 00:54:52,519
what the I don't even know about the Black legends,

1140
00:54:52,519 --> 00:54:53,480
so I can say what that.

1141
00:54:53,559 --> 00:54:58,519
Speaker 5: Is, Suco five dollars. You got to have soar in

1142
00:54:58,679 --> 00:55:03,920
Cleaves antiquity jay on an ai ed edit where you

1143
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,360
all go to Agartha with Yakoub.

1144
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 4: That sounds fun. Make it go ahead and make it

1145
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:15,320
in Christo's five dollars. This is a Orthodox Patristics question.

1146
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:20,639
What's the understanding of the Melchizedic typology versus theophany? Yeah,

1147
00:55:20,679 --> 00:55:24,159
I've never understood. I mean, Malchizedic, as far as I

1148
00:55:24,199 --> 00:55:26,960
know in the Orthodox Church, is a specific person. It's

1149
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,000
not a theophany of Christ. The only reason people think

1150
00:55:30,039 --> 00:55:32,920
this is because it says that his generation and his

1151
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:36,000
lineage is unknown. Well, that just means that Genesis didn't

1152
00:55:36,039 --> 00:55:38,639
tell us that on purpose so that he would be

1153
00:55:38,679 --> 00:55:41,440
a type of Christ. It doesn't mean that he is Christ.

1154
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:45,559
He's not a theophany of Christ. Dinko five dollars. I

1155
00:55:45,639 --> 00:55:48,000
was agnostic. I was baptized Roman Catholic. I'd like to

1156
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,840
go back to Christianity. If is an Orthodox church. Should

1157
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:52,719
I stay Roman Catholic or go Orthodox?

1158
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 2: Bro?

1159
00:55:54,079 --> 00:55:54,519
Speaker 14: What you think?

1160
00:55:55,519 --> 00:55:57,199
Speaker 5: What does he think? What do you think we're gonna

1161
00:55:57,199 --> 00:55:59,119
say you gotta be Orthodox? Man, No, you don't. Don't

1162
00:55:59,119 --> 00:56:02,239
become a papist? Wink three dollars? How would you respond

1163
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:03,840
to that idea that? No, we did that one? Okay.

1164
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:05,519
So I'm just trying to catch up on some of these.

1165
00:56:06,599 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 4: Rachel Wilson shout out to Rachel since fifty dollars.

1166
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 5: Sew Boy says, it's your birthday, Happy birthday. It's your birthday, right, So.

1167
00:56:14,639 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 4: Everybody sing the two Chain song to me about big

1168
00:56:18,519 --> 00:56:21,079
booties and whatever. I forget what he sings about in

1169
00:56:21,119 --> 00:56:23,199
that song we go. I think I think Kanye is

1170
00:56:23,199 --> 00:56:27,199
in that song too, but or he references Kanye.

1171
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:27,559
Speaker 5: I don't know.

1172
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:30,760
Speaker 4: It's not technically my birthday, but it is coming up

1173
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:34,679
very soon. So but you're basically, uh, way right, trying

1174
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:36,079
to docs me, dude, trying.

1175
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:38,159
Speaker 6: To do birthday docs is crazy.

1176
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,320
Speaker 5: It's tomorrow. Tomorrow's actually taking me a birthday. Xeno fun?

1177
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:41,639
What's up?

1178
00:56:41,679 --> 00:56:41,800
Speaker 1: Man?

1179
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:45,599
Speaker 5: Xeno fun? What's up?

1180
00:56:45,599 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 4: By the way, we got a nice crowd of almost

1181
00:56:47,039 --> 00:56:49,360
twelve hundred if you would hit like and share it.

1182
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 5: What's up? Hey, Jamie, both of you guys, can you

1183
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:59,599
hear me? Yeah? Hey Jamie, go ahead, I need a espresso.

1184
00:57:00,079 --> 00:57:01,679
Is about when Jesus doesn't know the hour?

1185
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:05,199
Speaker 26: Do you hear some responses to that like that he

1186
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:07,800
knows in his human nature, he knows it in his

1187
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:09,559
divine nature, but not his human nature.

1188
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 5: And I think some fathers have explained it that way.

1189
00:57:13,159 --> 00:57:15,639
Speaker 26: But I've heard some of these Muslims recently talk about

1190
00:57:16,519 --> 00:57:19,000
like they're saying, that's the agnote heresy.

1191
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:24,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, this has been answered a million times over.

1192
00:57:25,239 --> 00:57:25,639
I don't know what.

1193
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:27,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I'm gonna put in the chat a really

1194
00:57:27,639 --> 00:57:30,760
good article over an Orthodox apologetics website right here.

1195
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,519
Speaker 5: It's called was Jesus Ignorant of his Second Coming?

1196
00:57:35,239 --> 00:57:38,519
Speaker 4: There is the link right there, and basically if you

1197
00:57:38,599 --> 00:57:41,320
look at other places in the Gospels, this is the

1198
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:43,239
way Saint Basil answers it.

1199
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:45,599
Speaker 5: In his letter two thirty six, you know.

1200
00:57:45,559 --> 00:57:49,079
Speaker 4: He says things like, yeah, Jesus says, there's no one

1201
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:50,400
good about the Father.

1202
00:57:52,079 --> 00:57:54,039
Speaker 5: You know, there's no one no one knows the son

1203
00:57:54,079 --> 00:57:54,639
about the Father.

1204
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 4: Okay, well, does that mean that no human beings know

1205
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:59,559
him or that the Holy Spirit doesn't know him?

1206
00:58:00,159 --> 00:58:03,599
Speaker 5: Uh? It's just rhetorical language that's intended.

1207
00:58:03,599 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 4: And Jesus does this all the time where he says,

1208
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:07,679
you know, if your hand caused you to sin, cut

1209
00:58:07,679 --> 00:58:09,840
it off. He's not literally telling you to cut your

1210
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:11,760
hand off. It's a it's a turn of phrase.

1211
00:58:12,599 --> 00:58:12,719
Speaker 5: Uh.

1212
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 4: So I think Basil's explanation is the most because there's

1213
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:20,199
other passages that say explicitly he did the Sun knew

1214
00:58:20,199 --> 00:58:20,760
all things.

1215
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 6: So yeah, the disciples directly to Jesus.

1216
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:30,679
Speaker 4: Hold on one second, on second, hold on one second.

1217
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 5: Let let Nick go ahead and reply.

1218
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:34,239
Speaker 6: Nick, I don't know if you can hear me, but

1219
00:58:34,559 --> 00:58:35,280
can you hear me?

1220
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:35,559
Speaker 9: Guess?

1221
00:58:37,239 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, Yeah.

1222
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 7: What I was gonna say was you even see in

1223
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:45,199
other parts chapters where the disciples literally say we now see,

1224
00:58:45,239 --> 00:58:47,760
you know all things, I think not say heresy isn't

1225
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,159
even just saying that Christ doesn't have some sort of knowledge,

1226
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:53,320
just saying that he doesn't know things in virtue. If

1227
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:56,360
you say, oh, you know, he doesn't know anything in

1228
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,159
virtue of his human nature, the divine nature doesn't transmit

1229
00:58:59,199 --> 00:59:01,239
knowledge to the human nature, because we say he knows

1230
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:03,400
things not in virtue of his human nature, but in

1231
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,159
virtue of his divine nature. And so the muzzles will

1232
00:59:06,159 --> 00:59:08,360
trying to conflate that and say that there's you know,

1233
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:12,480
h some sort of symmetry with saying that he doesn't

1234
00:59:12,519 --> 00:59:14,599
know something with the ignota heris e. But they just

1235
00:59:14,679 --> 00:59:17,920
misunderstanding in the first place, because the issue was more

1236
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:20,280
about the fact that they were collapsing the two natures

1237
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:22,400
into one and then saying that one nature didn't have

1238
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:23,079
this knowledge.

1239
00:59:23,159 --> 00:59:26,239
Speaker 5: So right, that's what I kind of thought.

1240
00:59:26,239 --> 00:59:28,719
Speaker 26: I kind of thought there was like it's saying that

1241
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,840
his knowledge of it isn't natural to his human nature.

1242
00:59:32,119 --> 00:59:34,719
Speaker 9: But I think they're confusing what the ignota Harris he is.

1243
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:41,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, appreciate that. Good questions, you know. Fun Let's see

1244
00:59:42,079 --> 00:59:44,079
if I disagree, we're looking for some of the ops.

1245
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:46,360
If you disagree, raise your hand. I know it's all

1246
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:49,079
these blank gas profiles with no pictures. That's always the

1247
00:59:49,079 --> 00:59:51,679
people who disagree because it's people that were that were

1248
00:59:52,679 --> 00:59:53,400
that were blocked.

1249
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:56,639
Speaker 5: They had to make it. Yeah, so JT, what's up?

1250
00:59:56,679 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 4: I see you got no no profile image, so you

1251
00:59:59,559 --> 01:00:00,280
got to be hater?

1252
01:00:01,079 --> 01:00:01,559
Speaker 5: What's up?

1253
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:04,159
Speaker 10: Uh?

1254
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:09,079
Speaker 9: Hedgey Nick? I just had a question about.

1255
01:00:09,119 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 5: Uh, you've.

1256
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:13,239
Speaker 27: You've talked a lot about.

1257
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 2: Paradigms and paradigm level arguments, and I wanted to ask

1258
01:00:17,559 --> 01:00:19,599
you if you think when people have a hard time

1259
01:00:19,679 --> 01:00:24,079
understanding the arguments, is the problem like an inability to

1260
01:00:24,079 --> 01:00:28,400
step outside of their own paradigm you think, or like

1261
01:00:28,519 --> 01:00:30,400
just assuming that it's not straight up dishonesty.

1262
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:34,599
Speaker 4: I think it's a combination of things. I think people don't,

1263
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,000
you know, they're trained to think in little you know,

1264
01:00:38,079 --> 01:00:40,679
stack the box on the other box. That's sort of

1265
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:43,920
the foundationalist model of how everybody most people think since

1266
01:00:45,239 --> 01:00:47,719
since the Enlightenment or even even maybe earlier than that,

1267
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:51,760
so they don't really think about holistic systems level thinking.

1268
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:53,679
I also think that we had a guy called in

1269
01:00:53,719 --> 01:00:55,159
a few months ago, and he was making a good

1270
01:00:55,199 --> 01:00:58,159
argument that even psychology, you could take it with sort

1271
01:00:58,159 --> 01:01:00,000
a grain of salt, but he was argument. Even psychology

1272
01:01:00,239 --> 01:01:03,360
kind of studied and figured out that a lot of

1273
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,679
people literally can't even think at.

1274
01:01:06,599 --> 01:01:07,519
Speaker 5: A systemic level.

1275
01:01:07,559 --> 01:01:10,039
Speaker 4: It's just kind of a there's like an IQ tier

1276
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:13,519
that people that are sort of under that are unable

1277
01:01:13,559 --> 01:01:13,960
to get to.

1278
01:01:14,079 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 5: And that lines up with a lot of my experience.

1279
01:01:17,039 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 4: I mean, I know, ultimately some of the problems are

1280
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:21,639
obviously spiritual, but you know when you ask, for example,

1281
01:01:21,679 --> 01:01:23,599
we did that six hour stream where we asked all

1282
01:01:23,639 --> 01:01:27,559
the Muslims to just simply restate the example or the

1283
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:31,119
you know, the cannon conundrum argument, and they literally couldn't

1284
01:01:31,159 --> 01:01:33,360
even restate it. You know, that's the whole point of

1285
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:34,760
that meme. How would you feel if you didn't have

1286
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:35,639
breakfast this morning?

1287
01:01:35,719 --> 01:01:35,880
Speaker 5: Right?

1288
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 4: So there's something there too, with I think a barrier

1289
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:42,079
to whether people can do sort of abstracted thinking and

1290
01:01:42,119 --> 01:01:44,400
then abstracting from abstractions.

1291
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:45,079
Speaker 5: Another level above that.

1292
01:01:45,719 --> 01:01:48,239
Speaker 4: So all of those things I think contribute to why

1293
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:50,840
it's very hard for people to understand, you know, paradigm

1294
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:52,599
thinking or paradigm level arguments.

1295
01:01:54,199 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 2: Nice. I mean, do you like, would you say, I

1296
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:58,960
mean this is just the plans with like would you

1297
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:00,639
say there's a love of it where people.

1298
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:02,880
Speaker 9: Are some people are literally too dumb. I mean you

1299
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:03,920
said that, I don't know if you're just.

1300
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 5: So that's essentially what I'm saying.

1301
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:09,079
Speaker 4: I mean, that's saying it in very simple terms, and

1302
01:02:09,119 --> 01:02:11,119
I mean I'm not that doesn't mean those people can't

1303
01:02:11,119 --> 01:02:13,880
be saved, but it's like, uh, you know, certain certain

1304
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:16,880
types of arguments, I mean, even the classical arguments, like

1305
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:20,840
a very you know, complex version of the Kalom cosmological argument,

1306
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:22,199
which I don't think is a very good argument, but

1307
01:02:22,199 --> 01:02:24,360
I mean there's an obvious an IQ barrier for some

1308
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,159
people to You're not going to go down to Somalia

1309
01:02:27,239 --> 01:02:29,280
with the eighty IQ people and like convince them of

1310
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:34,119
God's existence or Christianity through some you know, wild Kalom

1311
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:36,960
cosmological argument. They don't know what you're talking about. This

1312
01:02:37,039 --> 01:02:39,320
why the elders when they go and convert some of

1313
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:41,760
the tribes, like they realize that a lot of these

1314
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,679
people have very low IQ's and they will actually say,

1315
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:48,719
I just basically give them katechisis of three points. There's

1316
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:51,920
one God, that Jesus God, and you can't have ten wives.

1317
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 5: Pick one.

1318
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,079
Speaker 4: That's the literally that's like the katechisas of like some

1319
01:02:55,159 --> 01:02:57,960
of the tribes. They don't sit there trying to convince

1320
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:02,039
them of you know, the you know, eternal manifestation versus

1321
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:04,119
you know, the filioquay.

1322
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 5: John, you want to say something, Well, even.

1323
01:03:08,239 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 14: If you think of it on a simpler level, think

1324
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:14,199
about how there's people on the political level that can't

1325
01:03:14,239 --> 01:03:17,119
even see with outside of a paradigm, much less the

1326
01:03:17,159 --> 01:03:23,920
philosophical or the theological. Yeah, and like it's it's very

1327
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:27,719
hard for even just an average American if you were

1328
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:32,159
to Like the thing you and I joke about is

1329
01:03:32,199 --> 01:03:35,480
that why do you have books that you disagree with

1330
01:03:35,519 --> 01:03:41,519
on your bookshelf? Because nobody goes and reads opinions that

1331
01:03:41,559 --> 01:03:45,800
are opposing, and they don't go read other people's books

1332
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:48,440
to understand the opposite end of the spectrum.

1333
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:49,199
Speaker 9: It doesn't even.

1334
01:03:49,079 --> 01:03:51,639
Speaker 14: Enter into their mind to do that in any sort

1335
01:03:51,679 --> 01:03:54,719
of subject. It really doesn't even matter what the subject is.

1336
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:57,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, one thing about college that was good was being

1337
01:03:57,800 --> 01:03:59,960
forced to read all these people that I never want

1338
01:04:00,119 --> 01:04:02,440
to read. Otherwise I probably would have never read David

1339
01:04:02,519 --> 01:04:07,559
Hume or I don't know, you know, Hans Gottimer or

1340
01:04:07,639 --> 01:04:11,719
any of these, you know existentialists like Sartra, like being

1341
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:14,920
forced to read and understand those positions was actually it

1342
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:16,719
was laborious and a lot of times it was boring,

1343
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:19,039
but it was actually good in the long run to

1344
01:04:19,119 --> 01:04:23,599
be exposed to and to understand the ops positions. And

1345
01:04:23,639 --> 01:04:25,840
that's ultimately what makes you, I think, a good you know,

1346
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:28,719
That's what Aristotl said. An educated man can state a

1347
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:33,599
position without necessarily agreeing with it, and you know, uneducated

1348
01:04:33,639 --> 01:04:34,880
people unfortunately can't do that.

1349
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:36,840
Speaker 5: So well.

1350
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:40,960
Speaker 14: Another thing too, Sometimes sometimes like something you're opposed to

1351
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:45,280
will have elements of truth in it, and then somebody

1352
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:48,039
might say to you like, oh, well so and so

1353
01:04:48,239 --> 01:04:51,920
talks about that, that makes it good. And then but

1354
01:04:52,039 --> 01:04:56,559
you're able to formulate an opinion that says like, well, no,

1355
01:04:56,719 --> 01:04:59,760
just because someone might say a good thing here doesn't

1356
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:00,920
make the entire.

1357
01:05:00,679 --> 01:05:07,199
Speaker 4: Philosophy exactly right exactly Christos, what's up, man.

1358
01:05:09,239 --> 01:05:11,639
Speaker 27: Jay, I'm just wondering what your like kind of view

1359
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:15,159
is on like the fallibilist position of like I know

1360
01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:17,519
them saying that they don't need to give a justification

1361
01:05:17,519 --> 01:05:20,760
because it's not necessary and it's too much explanation, do you.

1362
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:21,199
Speaker 9: Know what I mean?

1363
01:05:22,199 --> 01:05:24,039
Speaker 5: I think the problem with that is that it kind

1364
01:05:24,079 --> 01:05:26,599
of begs the question. It's like, well, why ought we

1365
01:05:26,679 --> 01:05:28,119
believe fallibilism? Right?

1366
01:05:28,159 --> 01:05:31,239
Speaker 4: Well, I mean if and if positions don't require justification,

1367
01:05:31,559 --> 01:05:33,559
I think we're in a worse a worse state.

1368
01:05:33,599 --> 01:05:35,280
Speaker 5: We're in even worse hot water.

1369
01:05:36,079 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 4: Because then we don't really have any way to adjudicate

1370
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:40,599
between good positions bad positions.

1371
01:05:40,599 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 5: Good paradigm is a bad paradigm.

1372
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:43,119
Speaker 4: So I think it's it's more of a cop out,

1373
01:05:43,199 --> 01:05:44,960
kind of like pragmatism. We had somebody calling a couple

1374
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:47,719
days ago, but why what's wrong with pragmatism? Like, well,

1375
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:49,920
I mean it doesn't tell you. It's basically just copping out.

1376
01:05:50,519 --> 01:05:52,920
So I see it the same type of thing going

1377
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:55,760
on with any position that would say, well, uh, you know,

1378
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:58,440
justification is not I mean, I don't think we have

1379
01:05:58,519 --> 01:06:05,480
to expect like Descartes level of you know, perfect, omniscient,

1380
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:10,039
absolutely indubitable, uh you know, certitude, because I don't I'm

1381
01:06:10,079 --> 01:06:12,000
not sure that any position can actually.

1382
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 5: Provide that level of certitude.

1383
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:15,440
Speaker 4: But I would say whatever, the highest level of certitude

1384
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:18,559
is something like a transcendoal category I mean, which is

1385
01:06:18,639 --> 01:06:21,000
necessary to have any knowledge, Like I would say, that's

1386
01:06:21,039 --> 01:06:23,320
the highest type of perfection. And if we're not going

1387
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:24,599
to go in an out route, we're going to go

1388
01:06:24,599 --> 01:06:28,639
in the in the route of saying, you know, there's

1389
01:06:28,679 --> 01:06:30,000
just not really justification.

1390
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:32,679
Speaker 5: It just isn't possible. I think it's just even a

1391
01:06:32,679 --> 01:06:35,679
worse position. So and if that's the case. If that's

1392
01:06:35,679 --> 01:06:37,360
the case, then why are you even debating? Right?

1393
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:38,480
Speaker 4: Like, how are you going to how are you going

1394
01:06:38,519 --> 01:06:40,719
to argue that position and debate that position?

1395
01:06:41,199 --> 01:06:43,920
Speaker 27: It's actually matic, bro I spoke woman when it got

1396
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:46,039
done to the point of, okay, both our words us

1397
01:06:46,079 --> 01:06:46,880
could be illusions.

1398
01:06:47,039 --> 01:06:48,440
Speaker 5: Now what well?

1399
01:06:48,519 --> 01:06:50,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, And if if at that point, then you've done

1400
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:53,880
your job as an apologist, because that's reducing the positions

1401
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:56,239
to absurdity. If if the world views are illusions, and

1402
01:06:56,239 --> 01:06:58,079
then we're not debating at all.

1403
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 5: Josh, what's up? Man?

1404
01:07:02,119 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 4: By the way, guys were joined today by Nick from

1405
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:07,920
Fearless Truth. His channel is linked in the chat in

1406
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:09,599
the show description if you want to go follow Nick

1407
01:07:09,639 --> 01:07:13,639
for his uh many debates and apologetic.

1408
01:07:13,079 --> 01:07:18,679
Speaker 5: Works over there. What's up? Josh?

1409
01:07:19,239 --> 01:07:27,000
Speaker 4: So are people joking that Joe, I'm looking, I'm not

1410
01:07:27,039 --> 01:07:28,880
seeing anything on that trolling.

1411
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:32,519
Speaker 5: What's up, man, Josh, what's up dude?

1412
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:39,079
Speaker 28: You Jay, I'm just actually new to being Catholic. I

1413
01:07:39,199 --> 01:07:42,239
left being a Presbyterian.

1414
01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:44,880
Speaker 5: I'm sorry here, and.

1415
01:07:46,599 --> 01:07:50,599
Speaker 28: Uh, anyway, I was wanting to I've been listening to

1416
01:07:50,679 --> 01:07:52,880
some of your stuff. I'm just trying to wrap my

1417
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:58,440
mind around some of the ideas. Okay, So what do

1418
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:04,159
you or does Eastern Orthodox who like on nature and grace?

1419
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:06,360
Is it pretty close to Catholics like.

1420
01:08:07,199 --> 01:08:10,079
Speaker 4: Or I mean, we do believe in a distinction between

1421
01:08:10,119 --> 01:08:12,239
nature and grace, because you would have you know, Grace

1422
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:15,719
is uncreated and nature is created. But you know the

1423
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:20,600
Roman Catholic Church, Grace is a supernatural creature, it's not uncreated.

1424
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:23,960
So that's a huge fundamental difference between us and the

1425
01:08:24,039 --> 01:08:27,119
Roman Catholics. But we do believe there's a distinction between

1426
01:08:27,199 --> 01:08:28,159
nature and grace for sure.

1427
01:08:29,279 --> 01:08:34,399
Speaker 28: Okay. And what about something like the Council of Orange.

1428
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:39,239
Is there is that somewhat close to y'all's position or not?

1429
01:08:39,319 --> 01:08:39,600
Speaker 11: Really?

1430
01:08:40,119 --> 01:08:42,199
Speaker 4: Well, the East never had to deal with the issue

1431
01:08:42,239 --> 01:08:45,319
of operant grace from Augustine because the East never accepted

1432
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:48,600
the Augustinian presupposition so there was never this idea of

1433
01:08:49,239 --> 01:08:51,520
you know, operative and cooperative grace. There's really just grace

1434
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:54,640
was always seen as operative. And one of the reasons

1435
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:58,119
for that was because of Christology. Christology mandates that, I

1436
01:08:58,119 --> 01:09:01,800
mean from the councils, that Christ's human nature has the

1437
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:04,680
same identical nature that we have. So if he has

1438
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:06,560
the same nature as us, and he has two wills

1439
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:09,239
and two energies, there can never be a point when

1440
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:12,680
human nature loses its own will and energy. If it

1441
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:15,800
has its own will and energy proper to it, then

1442
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:19,479
synergy is always the case. And the problem with the

1443
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:22,920
Augustinian position of operant grace is that that kind of

1444
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:26,800
it's hard to understand how that doesn't negate synergy because

1445
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:31,399
operant grace means that grace becomes the overriding cause, that

1446
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:35,600
moves you to believe, that moves you to repent, et cetera.

1447
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:39,760
So I know it's not Calvinism, but it's still hard

1448
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:43,000
to it's still a form of monargism because it doesn't

1449
01:09:43,079 --> 01:09:45,119
recognize synergy at every stage.

1450
01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:56,800
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, resource to get into you know, looking at

1451
01:09:56,880 --> 01:10:04,560
the sanitarium and crystological being able to look at those yeah,

1452
01:10:05,159 --> 01:10:08,399
you know, Dogmas and then abstract from that.

1453
01:10:09,199 --> 01:10:11,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's two. There's two books, right, there's two books.

1454
01:10:11,359 --> 01:10:13,760
Speaker 4: I would say read Saint Cyril of Alexander and The

1455
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:16,880
Christological Controversy by mcguckan, uh, and that will kind of

1456
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:19,840
iron out a lot of the problems in Western Christology.

1457
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:23,039
And then I would read Free Choice in Saint Maximus

1458
01:10:23,039 --> 01:10:27,560
because he can trast the anthropology and the the mode

1459
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,920
of willing between the Augustinian view of Christ and Man

1460
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:32,840
and the Orthodox few of Christ and Man. Both of

1461
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:36,119
those books are absolutely essential, I think to show the

1462
01:10:36,119 --> 01:10:39,319
difference between the two in terms of Christology and anthropology.

1463
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:44,760
Speaker 5: Uh, Sword, what's up? Man? And Nick? Did you want

1464
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:45,520
to say anything on that?

1465
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:48,800
Speaker 6: I was actually gonna recommend the Crystalagio Controversy.

1466
01:10:48,319 --> 01:10:51,720
Speaker 4: Too, So yeah, that book's really good. Sword, what's up?

1467
01:10:56,039 --> 01:10:56,880
Speaker 5: Sword? You gotta umu?

1468
01:10:57,039 --> 01:11:03,399
Speaker 4: Dude, you unmuted, but you didn't turn your mic on.

1469
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:05,600
Speaker 5: So if you turn your mic on and come back,

1470
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:09,239
I'll go to you. See what's up? Everybody's being so

1471
01:11:09,279 --> 01:11:10,600
generous because it's my birthday.

1472
01:11:11,399 --> 01:11:12,920
Speaker 6: Uh?

1473
01:11:13,079 --> 01:11:17,199
Speaker 4: Hey, yo, five dollars, Jamie, give me an espresso? Destroy

1474
01:11:18,399 --> 01:11:22,239
Bonu Klein something I don't know. Twenty dollars, sorry about

1475
01:11:22,279 --> 01:11:27,560
my name. With Norse Pagans, the religion is based on race.

1476
01:11:28,279 --> 01:11:30,680
I'd actually argue it's based on tribe because it's not

1477
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:33,079
even They didn't really have a conception of race the

1478
01:11:33,079 --> 01:11:36,000
way that we think of race nowadays. But I think, yeah,

1479
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:40,720
it's definitely tribal. For example, there are no Indians in Valhalla. Well, yeah,

1480
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:42,840
you're not going to put the you know.

1481
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:45,399
Speaker 5: Rival tribes in Valhalla.

1482
01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:49,479
Speaker 4: According to the worldview, wouldn't it imply that every religion

1483
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:54,000
has its own like each each tribe or race has

1484
01:11:54,039 --> 01:11:54,840
its own religion.

1485
01:11:55,359 --> 01:11:55,600
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1486
01:11:55,600 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 4: But I think what you realize is when you debate

1487
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:00,520
with Pagans and you get into it, they don't really

1488
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:02,520
believe it to be real. It's more of like a

1489
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:07,479
social factor that binds them, and it's just kind of

1490
01:12:08,159 --> 01:12:10,399
a bunch of myths and stories that kind of supposed

1491
01:12:10,399 --> 01:12:11,479
to inspire you to be.

1492
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:12,640
Speaker 5: Heroic or whatever.

1493
01:12:13,199 --> 01:12:17,399
Speaker 4: They don't really typically believe in ontologically speaking, all of

1494
01:12:17,399 --> 01:12:19,920
these gods and Odin and whatnot, many of them, I mean,

1495
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:23,079
there's some that do. But anything you want to say

1496
01:12:23,119 --> 01:12:27,159
on neo pagan type stuff, nick.

1497
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:30,680
Speaker 6: I could care less about Norse paganism.

1498
01:12:30,720 --> 01:12:34,319
Speaker 4: Bro Neo Perry ten dollars, Happy birthday, Thank you for

1499
01:12:34,319 --> 01:12:37,199
what you do. Thanks man, stay Sys three dollars. The

1500
01:12:37,319 --> 01:12:42,119
Nestorian Church evangelized China. This is one hundred of years

1501
01:12:42,119 --> 01:12:46,520
after Nestorius the gospel was shared. But if used much

1502
01:12:46,680 --> 01:12:50,239
with Buddhism and Taoism, well, I would say that Nostorianism

1503
01:12:50,319 --> 01:12:51,079
isn't the gospel.

1504
01:12:51,079 --> 01:12:52,279
Speaker 5: But I get what you're saying.

1505
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:55,800
Speaker 4: Do you have any thoughts on how heresy caused that

1506
01:12:55,920 --> 01:13:00,760
religion or Christianity to disappear in that region? Well, again,

1507
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:04,039
I think if you break off from the church from

1508
01:13:04,079 --> 01:13:06,840
the source, even if you have the Bible and you

1509
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:10,000
know they have these things that are true, you know

1510
01:13:10,119 --> 01:13:12,319
what if Jesus says that, you know, if you're not

1511
01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:15,479
if you're not grafted in to the branch, you're gonna

1512
01:13:15,479 --> 01:13:17,439
wither and die. And so that's what we see with

1513
01:13:17,479 --> 01:13:20,359
a lot of these you know, churches and sets and

1514
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:24,239
history that that die out is that you know, the

1515
01:13:24,279 --> 01:13:27,159
gates of Hell ended up prevailing over that domain or

1516
01:13:27,159 --> 01:13:27,720
that religion.

1517
01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:28,479
Speaker 5: See what's up you on?

1518
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:34,760
Speaker 12: I'm your Hey, I got a question.

1519
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:35,079
Speaker 1: Man.

1520
01:13:35,119 --> 01:13:38,239
Speaker 12: I'm sure you've heard this multiple times, but I'm having

1521
01:13:38,239 --> 01:13:39,840
a hard time raving my head around it.

1522
01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:43,000
Speaker 21: And I'm an Orthodoxic Christian myself, but.

1523
01:13:43,279 --> 01:13:48,119
Speaker 14: I'm just struggling with the question of if, if, if God.

1524
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 22: Is all knowing and all powerful, then then what would

1525
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:55,000
be the point in creating beings He would new are going.

1526
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:57,640
Speaker 9: To hell anyways in the end, Like, it just seems

1527
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:01,159
kind of cruel to me. I'm I myself would rather

1528
01:14:01,199 --> 01:14:01,960
have just never.

1529
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:03,600
Speaker 5: Been born if I knew that I was going to

1530
01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:06,920
go to hell and the end. Yes, I guess my.

1531
01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:11,239
Speaker 4: Question well, I mean, I think you the difference between

1532
01:14:11,319 --> 01:14:15,560
Western Christianity and its emphasis on predestinarianism, whether it's a

1533
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:19,279
Gusts and Aquaintness or Calvin like, they all stress predestination

1534
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:23,079
and the direct causation of the divine decree. With Calvin,

1535
01:14:23,079 --> 01:14:25,199
for example, the difference is that I think in the

1536
01:14:25,279 --> 01:14:28,479
Orthodox conception, God created out of his own goodness, not

1537
01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:32,039
because of any need or any lack, or any vengeance

1538
01:14:32,159 --> 01:14:35,840
or vindictiveness. And in the Orthodox view, the only thing

1539
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:39,640
that sends you to hell quote unquote is your own

1540
01:14:39,680 --> 01:14:42,960
actions and your own free will. So the difference is

1541
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:48,079
that we stress the responsibility of our own volition versus

1542
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:51,760
you know, worldviews that stress the causation of God.

1543
01:14:51,960 --> 01:14:54,439
Speaker 5: So the direct causation of God. So I would say that.

1544
01:14:56,159 --> 01:15:00,960
Speaker 4: It's still better to exist than to not exist, because

1545
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:05,640
God created those beings with the potential to be with him,

1546
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:11,000
and he didn't do that because he lacked, you know, anything,

1547
01:15:11,079 --> 01:15:11,840
or needed anything.

1548
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:13,760
Speaker 5: He did that for the creatures themselves.

1549
01:15:14,359 --> 01:15:18,279
Speaker 7: So I think a good point too is that when

1550
01:15:18,319 --> 01:15:20,640
we see like the story of Lazarus and the rich Man,

1551
01:15:20,800 --> 01:15:22,880
like we see that the rich Man, he isn't sitting

1552
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:25,079
there bagging saying I wish I would have changed my life,

1553
01:15:25,119 --> 01:15:26,640
I wish I would have done this. We see him

1554
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:29,479
still doing like the same sins that he was doing

1555
01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:32,239
on earth. He was still treating Lazarus like a servant

1556
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:34,680
even when he was in hades at that point, right,

1557
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:38,359
So he's non repentant even when you die. So I

1558
01:15:38,359 --> 01:15:40,079
think that we have to understand that people in hell,

1559
01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:42,000
like a lot of people have his notion that the

1560
01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:43,319
people in hell are going to be like, oh.

1561
01:15:43,239 --> 01:15:46,199
Speaker 6: My gosh, like exactly now I want Christ. No, it's

1562
01:15:46,239 --> 01:15:48,119
not the case. They're still continuing sitting.

1563
01:15:48,199 --> 01:15:50,800
Speaker 7: That's that's why hell is eternal, because they're put in

1564
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:54,199
such a and it's such an unrepentant state that they'll

1565
01:15:54,239 --> 01:15:54,800
never return.

1566
01:15:54,960 --> 01:15:57,359
Speaker 6: There's no there's no chance from never return to Christ.

1567
01:15:57,600 --> 01:15:59,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is the point of that C. S. Lewis book,

1568
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:01,359
Marriage of Heaven and Hell. If you never read it,

1569
01:16:01,399 --> 01:16:03,920
I recommend it because the point of the book is

1570
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:09,399
that in in this fantasy fiction, like there's a bus

1571
01:16:09,399 --> 01:16:12,600
that takes people from Hell to heaven, and the people

1572
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:15,680
from Hell that go to Heaven absolutely hate it. Everything

1573
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:17,720
about Heaven just makes them miserable.

1574
01:16:18,359 --> 01:16:18,600
Speaker 5: Uh.

1575
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:20,960
Speaker 4: It's it's a tortuous thing, and they would rather be

1576
01:16:21,239 --> 01:16:25,000
away from God than in God's presence because they've already

1577
01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:27,920
decided that they don't love God. So it's it's a

1578
01:16:28,039 --> 01:16:31,119
very different conception of hell than the sort of you know, Latin,

1579
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:35,880
you know Dante's thing where you're thrown into lakes of

1580
01:16:35,960 --> 01:16:38,760
fire or you're frozen in a giant pool.

1581
01:16:38,520 --> 01:16:39,439
Speaker 5: Of ice or whatever.

1582
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:42,680
Speaker 4: Like, it's a very different conception because it's basically saying,

1583
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:45,279
you really excuse me, it's a it's a great divorce,

1584
01:16:45,359 --> 01:16:48,760
not marriage. Marriage of Heaven Hell is the universalist book

1585
01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:52,439
that C. S. Lewis is writing against. Thank You, Thank You,

1586
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:56,239
Chat and the Station five Dollars Day. I was watching

1587
01:16:56,279 --> 01:16:59,479
the debate with Tim Gordon. At one point he said,

1588
01:17:00,600 --> 01:17:03,880
it's one point he asks you if in the Orthodox frame,

1589
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:08,000
where you could worship an energy of God without worshiping

1590
01:17:08,079 --> 01:17:09,279
his essence.

1591
01:17:09,359 --> 01:17:11,279
Speaker 5: I didn't can't catch your answer.

1592
01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:15,720
Speaker 4: So it's a silly question because it's assuming that these

1593
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:19,039
things are distinct parts. God doesn't have parts. God is

1594
01:17:19,079 --> 01:17:22,079
fully present in every one of his attributes. So if

1595
01:17:22,119 --> 01:17:25,640
I'm worshiping God, I am worshiping all of his attributes

1596
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:29,880
by necessity. There is no conception of I worship the

1597
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:33,760
mercy of God. And that's ironic because that's exactly what happens.

1598
01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:35,039
Speaker 5: In the Roman Catholic position.

1599
01:17:35,199 --> 01:17:40,319
Speaker 4: They have mercy, divine mercy Sunday, where you're focusing on

1600
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:44,199
what's their faces, you know, mystical visions of Jesus's heart

1601
01:17:44,319 --> 01:17:47,399
or with the Sacred Heart type stuff. So they actually worship,

1602
01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:50,880
they worship the parts. It's the Orthodox Church that worships

1603
01:17:50,880 --> 01:17:53,479
the entire whole Godhead. And the whole thing about the

1604
01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:57,079
essence inergy sinction is that the essence innergy distinction itself

1605
01:17:57,520 --> 01:17:59,600
presupposes divine simplicity.

1606
01:18:00,039 --> 01:18:01,279
Speaker 5: This is what people don't understand.

1607
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:05,520
Speaker 4: The energies all come from and proceed from a single

1608
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:08,760
divine essence because there is one energy.

1609
01:18:09,119 --> 01:18:10,600
Speaker 5: The energies are also.

1610
01:18:10,239 --> 01:18:12,800
Speaker 4: Many, but they're also one, and so there's a perfect

1611
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:16,319
unity in multiplicity within God. Basil says the energies of

1612
01:18:16,359 --> 01:18:19,359
God are infinite. Infinite is many, but he says there's

1613
01:18:19,399 --> 01:18:20,520
also one energy.

1614
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:22,880
Speaker 5: Right. John Mascus says the same thing in Book one.

1615
01:18:23,239 --> 01:18:27,479
Speaker 4: So God is one and many, and that undermines and

1616
01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:31,000
that gets rid of the dialectical thinking of Roman Catholicism

1617
01:18:31,039 --> 01:18:34,600
that you're either worshiping the divine essence or you're worshiping

1618
01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:38,439
these many supposed parts or energies. No, it's just like,

1619
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:41,520
think about me. This is the Cappadocian analogy that they make.

1620
01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:44,399
I am fully present in every action that I'm doing.

1621
01:18:44,439 --> 01:18:47,119
If I'm riding a bike, I am fully present in that.

1622
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:50,319
If I build a house, I am fully present in

1623
01:18:50,359 --> 01:18:52,920
the action or the energy of building a house. I

1624
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:57,239
am not the identical I'm not isomorphically identical to the

1625
01:18:57,279 --> 01:19:00,039
action of building a house. I am more than that

1626
01:19:00,079 --> 01:19:02,960
person Jay I engage in the action of the operation of.

1627
01:19:02,880 --> 01:19:03,560
Speaker 5: Building a house.

1628
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:06,279
Speaker 4: But I, as the person or subject Jay, am more

1629
01:19:06,359 --> 01:19:10,239
than building a house. But I am fully present in

1630
01:19:10,319 --> 01:19:12,479
the action of building a house. So that'd be like saying,

1631
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:17,159
do you acknowledge Jay or do you acknowledge Jay as

1632
01:19:17,239 --> 01:19:18,279
the building.

1633
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:18,479
Speaker 5: Of a house.

1634
01:19:19,199 --> 01:19:22,800
Speaker 4: It's a false dilemma based on the dialectical thinking of

1635
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:24,279
Rome John, where.

1636
01:19:24,159 --> 01:19:29,479
Speaker 5: You gonna say something nick niggas you want to John,

1637
01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:32,439
we'll go John in the nick say it again.

1638
01:19:33,479 --> 01:19:36,520
Speaker 4: I was saying it was yeah, yeah, excuse me, I

1639
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:38,920
always get the history onic women mixed up.

1640
01:19:38,960 --> 01:19:41,359
Speaker 5: Niggas. You want to say anything about Roman Catholic Uh.

1641
01:19:43,760 --> 01:19:45,880
Speaker 7: I mean, I think that the thing is you can't

1642
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:49,039
worship something without worshiping the thing it also subsists. Then

1643
01:19:49,079 --> 01:19:50,880
that would just be to separate the two. I mean

1644
01:19:50,920 --> 01:19:53,319
to say that that that would be to say that

1645
01:19:53,359 --> 01:19:57,720
there's like some sort of different existences within God, like

1646
01:19:57,760 --> 01:19:59,800
the point you made about there being one energy and

1647
01:20:00,039 --> 01:20:01,960
any at the same time, right, because they're going to

1648
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:04,439
be united, but they're going to be distinct in terms

1649
01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:09,000
of multiple things, like the effect they give even and

1650
01:20:09,079 --> 01:20:11,319
so I don't think there's any issue with saying that,

1651
01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:14,439
you know, you worship the energies, you're worshiping God and

1652
01:20:14,479 --> 01:20:16,600
we don't. We wouldn't even have to use a term whole, right,

1653
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:18,880
because hole is going to entail there's some sort of parts, right,

1654
01:20:18,920 --> 01:20:20,960
So we can just say that we worship him entirely,

1655
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:24,399
worship him in his trueness, right. I mean there's no

1656
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:27,920
there's no part whole relation there to actually distinguish them anyways.

1657
01:20:28,119 --> 01:20:31,039
Speaker 4: Also, you could turn this argument on the Roman Catholic

1658
01:20:31,079 --> 01:20:37,039
because if focusing on say, worshiping one aspect or one

1659
01:20:37,880 --> 01:20:40,560
trait or property, whatever term you want to use, if

1660
01:20:40,600 --> 01:20:44,399
that necessitates parts in God or that you don't worship

1661
01:20:44,439 --> 01:20:46,079
the whole God, you could ask that same question of

1662
01:20:46,079 --> 01:20:48,199
the Roman Catholic when it comes to the Trinity. So

1663
01:20:48,319 --> 01:20:50,880
when you are honoring the Son, are you therefore not

1664
01:20:51,079 --> 01:20:53,359
honoring the Spirit or the Father? I mean, it's just

1665
01:20:53,399 --> 01:20:57,000
a silly question. But Eugene says, I was not familiar

1666
01:20:57,319 --> 01:20:58,960
for ten dollars, I was not familiar with Nick.

1667
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:08,239
Speaker 5: Glad to see him, cheers, thank you. Let's see Silvona's

1668
01:21:08,279 --> 01:21:08,960
five dollars.

1669
01:21:09,439 --> 01:21:13,119
Speaker 4: When you look at early Church father canon lists of

1670
01:21:13,159 --> 01:21:16,760
the Bible before Hippo in three ninety three, they're essentially

1671
01:21:16,800 --> 01:21:18,000
adhere to the Protestant list.

1672
01:21:18,159 --> 01:21:18,720
Speaker 5: No they don't.

1673
01:21:19,119 --> 01:21:22,359
Speaker 4: It's totally not true. I mean, if you're talking about

1674
01:21:22,399 --> 01:21:25,560
the New Testament. Yeah, there's a lot of unanimity. There's

1675
01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:28,880
a rephrases. There's a good degree of unanimity on the

1676
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:32,560
New Testament lists if you look in three ninety three

1677
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:35,199
of By the way, this is I covered this question

1678
01:21:35,239 --> 01:21:37,319
all the time, and this is there's several things we

1679
01:21:37,399 --> 01:21:41,840
need to fix here. First of all, in the Orthodox

1680
01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:44,600
or even perhaps in the Roman Calol mindset, we're going

1681
01:21:44,680 --> 01:21:49,600
to take concilier lists over individual church father's list.

1682
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:51,359
Speaker 5: Okay, So if I look.

1683
01:21:51,199 --> 01:21:54,319
Speaker 4: At the Apostolic Canons and I see I think it's

1684
01:21:54,319 --> 01:21:57,279
Canon eighty five when it lists what the canon scripture is,

1685
01:21:57,680 --> 01:21:59,000
it is not the Protestant list.

1686
01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:02,079
Speaker 5: A canon's with the normative church law in the East

1687
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:03,680
in the fourth century.

1688
01:22:04,119 --> 01:22:07,800
Speaker 4: If I look at the Council of Rome under Damasis, right,

1689
01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:11,880
that is the normative list in the West for the church.

1690
01:22:12,600 --> 01:22:15,399
Those are two conciliar lists. Both of those conciliar lists

1691
01:22:15,399 --> 01:22:18,520
in the fourth century include the Judro canon. Notice I'm

1692
01:22:18,520 --> 01:22:22,119
not saying that those lists tell us definitively the Old and.

1693
01:22:22,079 --> 01:22:22,800
Speaker 5: New Testament canon.

1694
01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:25,800
Speaker 4: I'm just giving them as examples of how we would

1695
01:22:25,800 --> 01:22:30,520
see the Snodol list above a particular church father's decision

1696
01:22:30,640 --> 01:22:33,880
or list. It's only affinacious really that lists in his

1697
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:37,520
festal letter the New Testament that pretty much everybody has

1698
01:22:37,520 --> 01:22:38,520
as the New Testament.

1699
01:22:38,760 --> 01:22:40,840
Speaker 5: So you're unaware of the fact, apparently that.

1700
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:46,239
Speaker 4: The books of the Catholic Epistles, Hebrews, the Books a

1701
01:22:46,239 --> 01:22:49,680
Book of Revelation, those were all very much doubted for

1702
01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:52,960
many centuries in the first, second and third century church.

1703
01:22:53,279 --> 01:22:55,840
Speaker 5: So you're absolutely totally wrong. You could read F. F. Bruce's

1704
01:22:55,840 --> 01:22:56,479
book on the Canon.

1705
01:22:56,560 --> 01:22:58,600
Speaker 4: You could read Lee McDonald's book on the Cannon, you

1706
01:22:58,640 --> 01:23:03,119
could read Jars Pelican's book on whose Bible which tradition?

1707
01:23:04,039 --> 01:23:09,199
All of those will actually refute your assertion. Cleaves and

1708
01:23:09,239 --> 01:23:11,439
two gooty two dollars, Thank you so much, bro, He says,

1709
01:23:11,479 --> 01:23:12,720
Happy birthday, shout out to Cleave.

1710
01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:15,640
Speaker 5: Everybody. Check out his channel and his apologetics as well.

1711
01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:18,880
Blue Pyramids five dollars.

1712
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:20,920
Speaker 4: Ay, man, I got a question, how come you know,

1713
01:23:21,239 --> 01:23:26,600
like why and stuff? He's joking, happy birthday, foreign Why

1714
01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:31,119
do you Catholics and Orthodox always fight, Well, we don't

1715
01:23:31,159 --> 01:23:35,239
believe that Catholics have the Gospel or correct theology. So

1716
01:23:35,319 --> 01:23:37,800
just because we agree with a lot of people and

1717
01:23:37,840 --> 01:23:39,960
a lot of things doesn't mean that we're on the

1718
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:43,199
same page. In the Orthodox conception, if you disagree with

1719
01:23:43,239 --> 01:23:47,119
one dogma, you're no longer Orthodox. So it's not a

1720
01:23:47,239 --> 01:23:50,640
question of like, well, Protestants are a thirty percent Orthodox,

1721
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:53,840
so we're on the same page, or Runancalolics, or sixty

1722
01:23:53,880 --> 01:23:56,840
percent Orthodox, so we're on the same page. It just

1723
01:23:56,880 --> 01:23:59,760
doesn't work like that. It's a holistic conception. You have

1724
01:23:59,760 --> 01:24:03,399
to whole to all the dogmas, and Rome unfortunately has

1725
01:24:03,399 --> 01:24:06,560
departed on many many dogmas. So we got a lot

1726
01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:08,359
of people in the chat talking smack. You want to

1727
01:24:08,439 --> 01:24:10,279
argue with me and Nick, feel free to call in.

1728
01:24:10,319 --> 01:24:13,279
We got Protestants in the chat who disagree. There is

1729
01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:19,439
the the list right there, or excuse me, the link

1730
01:24:19,520 --> 01:24:20,439
right there to call in.

1731
01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:24,960
Speaker 6: Maybe you will finally get some hopefully not just common warriors.

1732
01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:27,960
Speaker 5: Yeah right, we got Welcome to the new members.

1733
01:24:30,640 --> 01:24:32,000
Speaker 4: I want to make sure I didn't miss a chat

1734
01:24:32,039 --> 01:24:36,640
over here in YouTube in the fifths and dollars. Where

1735
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:39,399
do you draw the line in your acceptance of quote science?

1736
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:42,119
I mean there is no line. I'm just very skeptical

1737
01:24:42,159 --> 01:24:47,039
about most normy science. I'm not anti science. I you know,

1738
01:24:47,199 --> 01:24:50,680
studied quite a bit of philosophy science in my college

1739
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:53,800
underground grad you know classes, So I'm aware of science.

1740
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:55,640
But I also know that you know, it's admitted that

1741
01:24:55,680 --> 01:24:59,319
many peer review studies, some even up to fifty percent

1742
01:24:59,359 --> 01:25:02,199
of per of you study, are fraudulent or are deceptive.

1743
01:25:02,279 --> 01:25:07,520
So I put scientific claims very low in my you know,

1744
01:25:07,800 --> 01:25:10,920
hierarchy of authorities. It's not that I'm against science. I

1745
01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:13,439
just I'm more of a skeptic. I'm more of a

1746
01:25:13,520 --> 01:25:15,279
human when it comes to that. I mean, I have

1747
01:25:15,319 --> 01:25:17,319
it reversed right. Most people are skeptics when it comes

1748
01:25:17,359 --> 01:25:20,079
to like religious claims. I'm more of a skeptic when

1749
01:25:20,119 --> 01:25:22,439
it comes to so called science claims because in the

1750
01:25:22,439 --> 01:25:27,159
modern world science is what we what we think of

1751
01:25:27,199 --> 01:25:29,560
as science is actually more of a weird kind of

1752
01:25:29,800 --> 01:25:34,880
pop religion. I assume that you accept some scientific discoveries,

1753
01:25:35,439 --> 01:25:37,359
of course, like I mean, you have to be a

1754
01:25:37,359 --> 01:25:39,640
complete retard to not accept some.

1755
01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:41,640
Speaker 5: I'm just gonna bite the bullets.

1756
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:43,800
Speaker 4: Say, now, I don't believe in any scientific nobody, no

1757
01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:46,159
one has ever done any science, and there's never been

1758
01:25:46,199 --> 01:25:49,039
any scientific discovery. How about I just bite the bullet.

1759
01:25:50,680 --> 01:25:53,119
Don't you believe that God made the universe to be intelligible.

1760
01:25:53,159 --> 01:25:53,640
Speaker 5: Absolutely.

1761
01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:55,319
Speaker 4: In fact, that's why I argue that you got to

1762
01:25:55,359 --> 01:25:58,119
have transcendent categories to do science.

1763
01:25:58,560 --> 01:25:59,720
Speaker 5: So there you go.

1764
01:25:59,800 --> 01:26:04,600
Speaker 4: Twenty dollars, Nick, can you set up a monarchy and

1765
01:26:04,840 --> 01:26:08,039
energies talk between Jay and God logic?

1766
01:26:08,119 --> 01:26:10,119
Speaker 5: Twenty dollars.

1767
01:26:10,840 --> 01:26:13,399
Speaker 7: I mean, I don't even know if Avery hole is

1768
01:26:13,520 --> 01:26:16,039
like as saying a distinction or anything like that.

1769
01:26:17,680 --> 01:26:20,159
Speaker 5: Does Avery have any interest in orthodoxy? I know you

1770
01:26:20,199 --> 01:26:22,640
guys are buddies. Is he is ever mentioned or question

1771
01:26:22,760 --> 01:26:23,199
you about that?

1772
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:25,800
Speaker 7: We we've talked about it a little bit. I'll tell

1773
01:26:25,840 --> 01:26:27,239
you more offstream.

1774
01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 6: But yeah, we've spoken about it.

1775
01:26:28,039 --> 01:26:28,319
Speaker 5: Okay.

1776
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:30,640
Speaker 6: I don't know how much he wants public on that.

1777
01:26:30,600 --> 01:26:35,159
Speaker 5: Okay, JT. Jay? Thank you Nick, Thank you Jay. You're

1778
01:26:35,239 --> 01:26:36,039
very funny. Well, thank you.

1779
01:26:36,079 --> 01:26:39,000
Speaker 4: I'm glad that there's finally a dude that does admit

1780
01:26:39,039 --> 01:26:40,479
and think that I have a sense of him.

1781
01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:44,680
Speaker 5: There's one guy finally that they's so funny. One. I

1782
01:26:44,720 --> 01:26:46,720
am a full on science denier.

1783
01:26:46,920 --> 01:26:49,640
Speaker 4: I do not believe in science. I deny all six

1784
01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:51,800
million scientific discoveries.

1785
01:26:53,079 --> 01:26:57,359
Speaker 5: This is great, Uh, Leon, what's up? Man? That's a joke. Well,

1786
01:26:57,960 --> 01:27:02,880
because people won't get it, Leon Leon.

1787
01:27:04,319 --> 01:27:10,800
Speaker 4: Andie Stranger got some new whaz Leoni jokes?

1788
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:13,920
Speaker 5: What's that? Leon? Where a man? I'm setting you up

1789
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:15,399
with all kinds of residentvial jokes.

1790
01:27:16,119 --> 01:27:20,880
Speaker 4: Okay, Sword, Sword wants to try again because Leon can't connect. Leon,

1791
01:27:20,920 --> 01:27:23,920
you want to come back, Okay, we'll go to Leon

1792
01:27:23,960 --> 01:27:24,840
first because he connected.

1793
01:27:24,840 --> 01:27:29,000
Speaker 5: What's that man? Hey, brother, happy birthday? Thank you that.

1794
01:27:30,920 --> 01:27:32,920
Speaker 4: I just turned sweet sixteen. I got me a nice

1795
01:27:33,199 --> 01:27:34,640
cool grand dam out there.

1796
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:36,600
Speaker 9: Let's go, man.

1797
01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:37,159
Speaker 5: I love it.

1798
01:27:37,600 --> 01:27:37,760
Speaker 28: So.

1799
01:27:37,960 --> 01:27:41,720
Speaker 15: My wife and I have been inquiring into Orthodoxy, a

1800
01:27:41,720 --> 01:27:43,720
lot of it thanks to your content. I had a

1801
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:46,880
conversation with a guy who's a Church of God member.

1802
01:27:47,039 --> 01:27:50,840
I don't know if you know much about them.

1803
01:27:51,119 --> 01:27:53,159
Speaker 9: Yeah, they believe in like God the Mother and she's.

1804
01:27:52,960 --> 01:27:56,199
Speaker 4: Like an I thought you meant like Church of God,

1805
01:27:56,199 --> 01:27:57,600
a prophecy like the Pentecostals.

1806
01:27:57,600 --> 01:28:00,000
Speaker 5: You're talking about the woman that started a cult?

1807
01:28:00,439 --> 01:28:02,840
Speaker 6: Are you talking about the one that's like the Japanese woman?

1808
01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:05,399
Speaker 4: No, no hold on which one? Yeah, there's different one. So

1809
01:28:05,399 --> 01:28:06,479
there's a woman that went on.

1810
01:28:06,600 --> 01:28:11,159
Speaker 5: Uh, doctor Phil, now do you think you're the mother

1811
01:28:11,279 --> 01:28:11,760
of God?

1812
01:28:12,319 --> 01:28:14,359
Speaker 4: There's that woman and then there's another one that Nick's

1813
01:28:14,399 --> 01:28:16,079
talking about. Which one are you talking about.

1814
01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:19,079
Speaker 15: I think it's the lady on doctor Phil.

1815
01:28:20,439 --> 01:28:23,239
Speaker 5: So you actually so they actually have people that still

1816
01:28:23,239 --> 01:28:23,760
believe that.

1817
01:28:25,199 --> 01:28:28,159
Speaker 15: Yeah, I mean I've ran into like multiple guys just

1818
01:28:28,199 --> 01:28:30,399
going to shop and they'll kind of stop you and

1819
01:28:30,439 --> 01:28:32,399
ask you sit down and talk about the Bible, and

1820
01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:35,119
then they'll they launch a little attack on you. It

1821
01:28:35,159 --> 01:28:36,319
is kind of kind of creepy.

1822
01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:43,279
Speaker 4: But she's crazy. She passed away, and they still they

1823
01:28:43,319 --> 01:28:44,000
believe in her.

1824
01:28:44,520 --> 01:28:45,800
Speaker 6: Do you know what the name of the church is.

1825
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:47,359
Speaker 13: That's what they were saying.

1826
01:28:47,399 --> 01:28:48,760
Speaker 15: I really didn't look into it much.

1827
01:28:49,439 --> 01:28:50,600
Speaker 6: I'm not I'm not too sure.

1828
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:55,319
Speaker 4: It's hold on one second, Leon, hold on one second, Leon.

1829
01:28:55,359 --> 01:28:58,920
So he's talking about she was this hippie woman, this

1830
01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:02,720
hippie check who aim to like channel or get revelations

1831
01:29:02,960 --> 01:29:05,119
from God and then God turns out God's on mother.

1832
01:29:06,600 --> 01:29:08,319
I don't remember her name, but if you just look

1833
01:29:08,399 --> 01:29:13,079
up doctor Phil Mother God cult, you'll get the interviews

1834
01:29:13,079 --> 01:29:14,079
of a doctor Phil on her.

1835
01:29:14,119 --> 01:29:14,600
Speaker 5: But go ahead.

1836
01:29:16,119 --> 01:29:19,119
Speaker 15: Yeah, I guess my bigger question is just what's the

1837
01:29:19,840 --> 01:29:24,600
I guess orthodox perspective on eschatology. Not that they were

1838
01:29:24,600 --> 01:29:26,680
making me question, I was just curious to hear your

1839
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:28,640
in simple terms, I.

1840
01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:31,600
Speaker 4: Guess, yeah, I just look up the there's an audio

1841
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:35,399
book that's a short audiobook. It's called Apostles and Antichrist,

1842
01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:38,840
and somebody some years back read the entire thing on YouTube.

1843
01:29:39,319 --> 01:29:41,359
Speaker 5: So I think the book's out of print, but it's

1844
01:29:41,359 --> 01:29:43,039
a little book from Jordanville Monastery.

1845
01:29:43,159 --> 01:29:46,199
Speaker 4: I recommend that, and you can find Apostle an Antichrist

1846
01:29:46,279 --> 01:29:47,279
on YouTube.

1847
01:29:47,560 --> 01:29:48,800
Speaker 5: Sword what's up? You gonna try again?

1848
01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:49,920
Speaker 8: Hey?

1849
01:29:50,000 --> 01:29:51,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, I'm sorry for technical difficulties.

1850
01:29:52,199 --> 01:29:52,640
Speaker 14: Can you hear me?

1851
01:29:53,039 --> 01:29:55,039
Speaker 5: Yeah? What's up? So?

1852
01:29:56,600 --> 01:29:59,000
Speaker 9: I have a question. I don't remember the churches of Christ,

1853
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:02,479
and I have a lot of respect for the Orthodox faith.

1854
01:30:02,720 --> 01:30:05,119
Speaker 22: I have a number of friends who are Orthodox, So

1855
01:30:05,159 --> 01:30:07,560
I'm not trying to come at you guys from a

1856
01:30:07,600 --> 01:30:12,760
position of animosity, but I wanted to talk a little

1857
01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:17,119
bit about the idea of apostles and bishops and elders

1858
01:30:17,159 --> 01:30:20,479
and all of that, particularly with the idea of succession.

1859
01:30:21,359 --> 01:30:24,079
And what I like to do is to just give

1860
01:30:24,119 --> 01:30:27,359
you a premise and then just have you comment on it,

1861
01:30:27,439 --> 01:30:29,000
and then I'll be quiet and just listen.

1862
01:30:30,840 --> 01:30:32,880
Speaker 9: So the premise I would like to kind of paus

1863
01:30:32,920 --> 01:30:33,680
it here is.

1864
01:30:35,960 --> 01:30:41,439
Speaker 22: Would it be acceptable or correct understanding biblically to say

1865
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:45,880
that the office of the bishop is a successor to

1866
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:49,680
the office of the apostle, or is it specifically that

1867
01:30:49,760 --> 01:30:55,880
the bishop's elders, you know, those guys are individually successors

1868
01:30:55,960 --> 01:30:58,000
to the individuals that were apostles.

1869
01:30:58,760 --> 01:31:02,199
Speaker 9: Such that is just another name for apostle.

1870
01:31:02,680 --> 01:31:05,880
Speaker 4: No, I mean the apostles were a specific, unique role.

1871
01:31:06,359 --> 01:31:09,279
So there's no more apostles in the church. But I

1872
01:31:09,279 --> 01:31:12,800
mean there were many, you know, apostles, and that Jesus

1873
01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:16,000
sent out the seventy There were many apostles, you know,

1874
01:31:16,000 --> 01:31:17,439
in the Book of Acts and so forth.

1875
01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:18,279
Speaker 5: But that was a.

1876
01:31:18,520 --> 01:31:24,840
Speaker 4: First century reality. That apostolic succession does not mean necessarily

1877
01:31:24,880 --> 01:31:28,680
that the successors do everything and have everything that the

1878
01:31:28,680 --> 01:31:33,079
apostles said. For example, when you know Ignatius is teaching

1879
01:31:33,119 --> 01:31:36,680
an Antioch, he's the successor to the apostles, but he's

1880
01:31:36,720 --> 01:31:39,960
not an apostle, so he has some of those powers,

1881
01:31:39,960 --> 01:31:42,399
but he's not, for example, going to give new public

1882
01:31:42,399 --> 01:31:46,720
divine revelations. And that's why the early Church heresy of

1883
01:31:46,760 --> 01:31:49,680
the Montanists. The Montanists thought that there would be in

1884
01:31:49,920 --> 01:31:54,359
quote apostolic succession that included all the prophetic powers of

1885
01:31:54,439 --> 01:31:57,600
new divine revelations in the early Church determined that the

1886
01:31:57,640 --> 01:32:01,880
Montanous were heretics, because once the Apostles died, and once,

1887
01:32:01,880 --> 01:32:05,399
for example, Jude says in Jude three that the faith

1888
01:32:05,560 --> 01:32:08,479
was once for all delivered to the saints, there's not

1889
01:32:08,560 --> 01:32:11,880
going to be any new divine revelations. So appazot succession

1890
01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:17,039
means the powers that Jesus gave to his disciples that

1891
01:32:17,119 --> 01:32:21,000
are passed on include the preaching of the Gospel, the

1892
01:32:21,039 --> 01:32:25,479
administration of the sacraments, and the forgiving of sins. And

1893
01:32:25,479 --> 01:32:27,840
so Jesus, for example, Breedes and the Apostles, and he says,

1894
01:32:27,880 --> 01:32:31,239
whoever sins you remit, they're remitted. Whoever sins you retain,

1895
01:32:31,279 --> 01:32:34,079
they're retained. He says in Matthew sixteen, and in Matthew

1896
01:32:34,119 --> 01:32:36,720
eighteen to Peter and to the Apostles, the whole college,

1897
01:32:37,039 --> 01:32:39,720
that you have the office of the keys. You can

1898
01:32:39,760 --> 01:32:41,840
bind on heavn and bind on earth. As we know,

1899
01:32:41,880 --> 01:32:44,159
this has to do with authority and the forgiving of sins.

1900
01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:48,520
So that notion includes also, I think jurisdiction when it

1901
01:32:48,520 --> 01:32:51,479
comes to bishops ruling over certain areas. And we get

1902
01:32:51,520 --> 01:32:54,920
this not just from implication, but from Paul's Epistles.

1903
01:32:54,960 --> 01:32:55,760
Speaker 5: He says to Timothy.

1904
01:32:55,760 --> 01:32:59,960
Speaker 4: He says to Titus, I put you in charge in Ephesus. Timothy,

1905
01:33:00,159 --> 01:33:03,960
you don't lay hands on anybody too quickly unless you

1906
01:33:04,079 --> 01:33:06,880
find them to be good and approved men, because the

1907
01:33:06,920 --> 01:33:10,279
Holy Spirit is given through the laying on of hands,

1908
01:33:10,800 --> 01:33:13,800
Paul says to Timothy. So that's what we would say

1909
01:33:13,880 --> 01:33:17,159
apostolic succession means. It means the authority to preach, teach

1910
01:33:17,199 --> 01:33:20,399
the Gospel, administer the sacraments, and have the eucharistic altar,

1911
01:33:20,439 --> 01:33:24,159
et cetera. It's not new public divine revelations.

1912
01:33:25,560 --> 01:33:27,600
Speaker 9: So just to clarify, I want to make sure I

1913
01:33:27,680 --> 01:33:28,960
understand your answer correctly.

1914
01:33:29,079 --> 01:33:32,800
Speaker 22: You would accept them that the office of bishop is

1915
01:33:32,920 --> 01:33:36,159
more like a successor to the office of apostle because

1916
01:33:36,199 --> 01:33:37,319
they're not the same thing.

1917
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:43,079
Speaker 5: Well, that's what apostolic succession means, correct Okay.

1918
01:33:42,880 --> 01:33:44,960
Speaker 9: Well I appreciate you clarifying. Thank you for your time.

1919
01:33:45,279 --> 01:33:45,479
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1920
01:33:45,520 --> 01:33:47,439
Speaker 4: And also, you see it, it's not new to the

1921
01:33:47,479 --> 01:33:49,600
New Testament. It's what you see in the Old Testament.

1922
01:33:49,680 --> 01:33:52,920
Speaker 5: Right. So, for example, Jesus is in Matthew twenty three that.

1923
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:56,199
Speaker 4: Moses sits, or that the Pharisees sit in the seat

1924
01:33:56,359 --> 01:34:01,399
the Cathedra, the cathedral seat of Moses. So in the

1925
01:34:01,439 --> 01:34:05,800
Old Testament you have moses stallic succession, which Jesus acknowledges

1926
01:34:05,840 --> 01:34:08,039
in Matthew twenty three. He says that that's a real thing.

1927
01:34:08,640 --> 01:34:12,880
So apostolze succession. And then you look at numbers eleven

1928
01:34:13,720 --> 01:34:15,600
and you see the laying on of hands, and you

1929
01:34:15,640 --> 01:34:18,800
see the seventy elders, and Moses lays hands and passes

1930
01:34:18,840 --> 01:34:21,760
on his spirit to the seventy elders to help judge Israel.

1931
01:34:22,600 --> 01:34:26,000
That is typology that the New Testament is utilizing for

1932
01:34:26,119 --> 01:34:27,239
apostolic succession.

1933
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:28,159
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1934
01:34:28,319 --> 01:34:29,319
Speaker 6: Yeah, I was gonna say too.

1935
01:34:29,359 --> 01:34:30,840
Speaker 7: I mean even like it's where a lot of people

1936
01:34:31,000 --> 01:34:33,600
get apostles and bishops are like mixed up, because when

1937
01:34:33,600 --> 01:34:35,560
you see in the New Testament, Christ is talking about

1938
01:34:35,640 --> 01:34:37,760
you can go and handle snakes and do all these things,

1939
01:34:38,000 --> 01:34:39,880
and he's speaking directly to the apostles, and we see, I

1940
01:34:39,880 --> 01:34:41,880
think it's Paul, and who does end up doing that

1941
01:34:41,920 --> 01:34:44,079
and he's completely fine. And then that's where we get

1942
01:34:44,119 --> 01:34:46,000
these Pentecostal churches to day and think, oh, well, that's

1943
01:34:46,000 --> 01:34:48,640
you know, that carries down to the line today to

1944
01:34:48,680 --> 01:34:51,199
our pastors and bishops and now we can handle snakes,

1945
01:34:51,199 --> 01:34:53,079
and it's like, no, it's not for everybody. It's for

1946
01:34:53,119 --> 01:34:56,439
a specific set of people that were bishops, not just anyone, right.

1947
01:34:56,840 --> 01:34:59,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, there was there were things that were unique

1948
01:35:00,199 --> 01:35:03,279
to the transition period between the Old and New Testament,

1949
01:35:03,319 --> 01:35:04,960
which is what's going on in the Book of Acts,

1950
01:35:06,439 --> 01:35:11,720
you know, like the miraculous example of Pentecost. And we've

1951
01:35:11,760 --> 01:35:15,560
covered this ad nauseum on my channel, refuting charismatics and Pentecostals.

1952
01:35:15,600 --> 01:35:21,079
That's a unique miracle that fulfills the Old Testament ritual

1953
01:35:21,239 --> 01:35:24,239
ceremonies of the feast of tabernacles, the feast of weeks.

1954
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:27,720
Pentecost is the fulfillment of that, and it's a unique

1955
01:35:27,760 --> 01:35:32,119
miracle that reverses Babel. It's also referenced in the several

1956
01:35:32,159 --> 01:35:35,720
chapters in Isaiah that the apostles under the Messiah would

1957
01:35:35,760 --> 01:35:39,520
speak in a miraculous single tongue, and so it's a

1958
01:35:39,640 --> 01:35:43,239
known it's everybody hearing the Gospel in their own language.

1959
01:35:43,239 --> 01:35:45,680
That's the miracle. So there's nothing in the New Testament

1960
01:35:46,000 --> 01:35:48,840
that has anything to do with gibberish or Babel. And

1961
01:35:48,920 --> 01:35:53,640
also Pentecost isn't necessarily something that continues on, for you know,

1962
01:35:53,720 --> 01:35:58,079
the Church two thousand years later. However, there are people

1963
01:35:58,119 --> 01:36:01,680
who have the gift of tongues, which is known languages.

1964
01:36:01,720 --> 01:36:05,239
For example, in my parish we have people that know two, three,

1965
01:36:05,359 --> 01:36:09,680
four languages and they're able to translate the liturgical texts

1966
01:36:09,720 --> 01:36:12,760
into various vernaculars. That is the gift of tongues. It's

1967
01:36:12,800 --> 01:36:17,119
not gibberish. Tipper says, for ten dollars, what is the

1968
01:36:17,119 --> 01:36:21,079
best book on monarchical Trinitarianism. Well, really you just read

1969
01:36:21,079 --> 01:36:23,720
the cabin Docian, so you could read Gregor about the

1970
01:36:23,760 --> 01:36:28,720
first best book is Gregor of Nazianzis' five Theological Orations,

1971
01:36:29,000 --> 01:36:33,199
but also the rest of the orations too are very important.

1972
01:36:33,359 --> 01:36:35,000
Speaker 5: What's the best book on theosis?

1973
01:36:35,479 --> 01:36:37,199
Speaker 4: I mean, if you want more modern you can get

1974
01:36:37,239 --> 01:36:40,920
all of doctor bo Brandson's lectures and his PhD thesis

1975
01:36:40,920 --> 01:36:42,520
on monarchical Trinitarianism.

1976
01:36:42,760 --> 01:36:45,319
Speaker 5: Best book on theosis probably something like.

1977
01:36:47,479 --> 01:36:48,840
Speaker 6: I have a thesis.

1978
01:36:49,159 --> 01:36:53,119
Speaker 4: There's one though, that's really good, with Professor Manserritis's book

1979
01:36:53,239 --> 01:36:54,199
on Palamas.

1980
01:36:55,239 --> 01:36:56,800
Speaker 5: So it's.

1981
01:36:58,560 --> 01:37:03,960
Speaker 4: Deification Inification of Man or deification in Christ. One of

1982
01:37:03,960 --> 01:37:07,760
the Professor Giorgios Manzarides, and it's his little pink book

1983
01:37:08,439 --> 01:37:09,640
on Gregory Palomas.

1984
01:37:09,680 --> 01:37:10,760
Speaker 5: That one's really good.

1985
01:37:10,920 --> 01:37:14,079
Speaker 4: And then there's also Deification of Man by Paniotis Nellis,

1986
01:37:14,720 --> 01:37:16,920
and then Nick has a recommendation.

1987
01:37:16,439 --> 01:37:18,119
Speaker 6: I lost my book on the I'm going.

1988
01:37:18,199 --> 01:37:21,520
Speaker 4: That's okay, development of the OCA. What's the best book

1989
01:37:21,560 --> 01:37:24,199
on the development of the Liturgy of Saint John Christism. Well,

1990
01:37:24,239 --> 01:37:26,439
actually I only know of one book. I think Dvornik

1991
01:37:26,479 --> 01:37:34,600
has a giant book on that. Uh No, actually it's

1992
01:37:34,680 --> 01:37:39,840
not Devornick. It's another Uniate scholar. I don't know where

1993
01:37:39,880 --> 01:37:41,840
I got a hold of this monstrosity.

1994
01:37:41,880 --> 01:37:44,000
Speaker 5: Here there is.

1995
01:37:43,960 --> 01:37:47,640
Speaker 4: A gigantic Uniate history of the Byzantine Liturgy of Saint

1996
01:37:47,720 --> 01:37:52,720
John Christism by Cosimir Kucharek. That's one. But this is

1997
01:37:52,840 --> 01:37:55,720
like an eight hundred page, you know, scholarly text. You

1998
01:37:55,800 --> 01:37:57,960
might not want that. Another text, I would say that's

1999
01:37:57,960 --> 01:38:01,399
a little more accessible is Hugh Weiber his book Byzantine Liturgy.

2000
01:38:02,439 --> 01:38:07,159
Speaker 5: I think I have it over here. Let's yeah, this

2001
01:38:07,199 --> 01:38:08,359
one is more accessible.

2002
01:38:08,399 --> 01:38:09,920
Speaker 4: And by the way, this one is actually really good

2003
01:38:10,119 --> 01:38:14,079
for this is an Anglican scholar, Anglican liturgist, and this

2004
01:38:14,079 --> 01:38:16,640
book is really good for reputing a lot of Protestant ideas,

2005
01:38:16,760 --> 01:38:21,199
especially about all the early Church was low church. The

2006
01:38:21,239 --> 01:38:23,399
early Church didn't have any imagery. This book is actually

2007
01:38:23,399 --> 01:38:26,560
pretty good for reputing that. So those are my recommendations.

2008
01:38:28,800 --> 01:38:31,880
Buckle buckets. What's up, man?

2009
01:38:32,039 --> 01:38:33,199
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's how's it going?

2010
01:38:33,239 --> 01:38:36,640
Speaker 29: First of all, Happy early birthday, Jay and Nick. Your

2011
01:38:36,960 --> 01:38:39,159
your discussion with Junior is some of the most entertaining

2012
01:38:39,199 --> 01:38:41,960
content I've seen recently recently, so that was fun.

2013
01:38:42,159 --> 01:38:44,880
Speaker 5: That is that the Muslim what's his name?

2014
01:38:45,760 --> 01:38:51,119
Speaker 29: Yeah, with aspiring philosophy that one I thought the conversation

2015
01:38:51,279 --> 01:38:56,600
was question for j I've been watching your content, I

2016
01:38:56,640 --> 01:38:57,880
would say for the past year, but.

2017
01:38:57,840 --> 01:39:00,479
Speaker 30: I really started to watch a lot more of your

2018
01:39:00,479 --> 01:39:07,600
philosophical content about philosophy and specifically about tag and I've

2019
01:39:07,680 --> 01:39:09,840
been seeing, like your debates and your videos that you

2020
01:39:10,000 --> 01:39:13,960
use a lot of David Hume and the problem of criteria,

2021
01:39:14,000 --> 01:39:14,800
and even.

2022
01:39:15,720 --> 01:39:17,479
Speaker 9: There it's kind of attack on.

2023
01:39:19,399 --> 01:39:23,319
Speaker 29: Cogito to kind of strengthen your arguments, and I've been

2024
01:39:23,319 --> 01:39:23,800
doing a lot of.

2025
01:39:23,720 --> 01:39:26,119
Speaker 9: Research and readings on that. I was just wondering if

2026
01:39:26,159 --> 01:39:26,600
you had any.

2027
01:39:26,560 --> 01:39:31,439
Speaker 29: More recommendations to help even further bolster my arguments.

2028
01:39:32,279 --> 01:39:34,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think it's absolutely necessary if you

2029
01:39:34,159 --> 01:39:37,119
want to go in that direction to read W. J.

2030
01:39:37,239 --> 01:39:41,840
Wood's book on Epistemology. It's a really readable Christian version

2031
01:39:41,880 --> 01:39:45,319
of epistemology, and so he stresses virtue ethics and how

2032
01:39:45,920 --> 01:39:49,079
you can't really do secular epistemology because it's not going

2033
01:39:49,119 --> 01:39:49,840
to make any sense.

2034
01:39:49,920 --> 01:39:50,840
Speaker 5: So it's really good for that.

2035
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:54,960
Speaker 4: A more technical graduate level manual is the Bonjour Text

2036
01:39:55,000 --> 01:39:58,880
on Epistemology, the Green Bonjour. It's usually used in grad

2037
01:39:58,880 --> 01:40:01,439
school for classes on epistemology, so.

2038
01:40:01,399 --> 01:40:02,199
Speaker 5: That one's really good.

2039
01:40:03,199 --> 01:40:05,479
Speaker 4: I mean, FDA has a lot of lectures and courses

2040
01:40:05,479 --> 01:40:07,479
that are free on his Channel and Patristic Faith that

2041
01:40:07,520 --> 01:40:10,439
you could do, but that really focuses on you know,

2042
01:40:10,479 --> 01:40:13,479
like certitude and epistemic questions. But I think it's really

2043
01:40:13,520 --> 01:40:16,279
important also to understand the metaphysics stuff too, So I

2044
01:40:16,319 --> 01:40:23,319
would say, you know, read like Coppleston's it's a whole series,

2045
01:40:23,399 --> 01:40:26,239
but you could read Coppleston's I forget which volume it

2046
01:40:26,319 --> 01:40:28,079
is on, like the Ancient Greeks, and then.

2047
01:40:28,000 --> 01:40:30,279
Speaker 5: Like you know, more modern stuff too.

2048
01:40:30,319 --> 01:40:33,359
Speaker 4: So the Coppleston series, I'm actually gonna buy the whole series,

2049
01:40:33,479 --> 01:40:34,560
only have like two volumes of it.

2050
01:40:34,600 --> 01:40:35,720
Speaker 5: I need to get the whole series.

2051
01:40:35,760 --> 01:40:40,680
Speaker 4: But Frederick Coppleston on anything, it's pretty good for overview.

2052
01:40:41,800 --> 01:40:44,359
Speaker 5: All right, do we have any oppositions? We had no

2053
01:40:44,479 --> 01:40:47,399
ops yet really so and we got here? Yeah. I

2054
01:40:47,399 --> 01:40:49,640
mean we've got twenty one people in the train.

2055
01:40:50,560 --> 01:40:51,279
Speaker 6: That's all I get.

2056
01:40:51,439 --> 01:40:52,039
Speaker 5: That's yeah.

2057
01:40:52,359 --> 01:40:55,359
Speaker 4: I think they've just decided that, you know, it's not

2058
01:40:55,439 --> 01:40:59,640
worth it to come over here. So now it's now

2059
01:40:59,640 --> 01:41:01,319
it's both of us are like, no, hell no, I'm

2060
01:41:01,359 --> 01:41:03,279
not doing it. Okay, here we got a guy who's

2061
01:41:03,479 --> 01:41:05,119
so Colin wants to come back about the flood.

2062
01:41:05,159 --> 01:41:12,319
Speaker 5: Okay, what's up calling your back? Go ahead?

2063
01:41:13,640 --> 01:41:15,920
Speaker 15: Yeah, sorry, I accidentally signed out last time.

2064
01:41:16,000 --> 01:41:19,560
Speaker 5: That's okay. I thought maybe you just left. Oh no, no.

2065
01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:23,039
Speaker 9: So yeah, I actually agree with most of the stuff

2066
01:41:23,079 --> 01:41:23,319
that you.

2067
01:41:27,079 --> 01:41:30,159
Speaker 4: Oh Colin, we're having a hard time.

2068
01:41:30,239 --> 01:41:31,079
Speaker 5: I can't hear you. Man.

2069
01:41:33,199 --> 01:41:37,479
Speaker 4: Maybe you need to get nearer to your to your

2070
01:41:37,760 --> 01:41:40,239
hamster wheels. Sensey, what's up? Man, Let's let's try some

2071
01:41:40,279 --> 01:41:43,279
of these randos here with no no pictures.

2072
01:41:43,560 --> 01:41:45,319
Speaker 5: Sense are you doing?

2073
01:41:45,359 --> 01:41:46,079
Speaker 9: Can you hear me, Jamee?

2074
01:41:47,199 --> 01:41:47,840
Speaker 6: Are you doing about it?

2075
01:41:47,920 --> 01:41:48,159
Speaker 28: Ay?

2076
01:41:48,439 --> 01:41:51,600
Speaker 10: I have a question every time that I speak with

2077
01:41:51,720 --> 01:41:55,319
Protestants when they try to justify a soldiership to a

2078
01:41:55,760 --> 01:41:58,199
Why is it that they always go to Second Timody

2079
01:41:58,239 --> 01:41:58,920
three sixteen.

2080
01:42:01,039 --> 01:42:03,359
Speaker 4: I guess because it's one of the few places in

2081
01:42:03,399 --> 01:42:06,760
the New Testament where you have explicit reference to the

2082
01:42:06,800 --> 01:42:08,520
text of scripture and inspiration.

2083
01:42:08,840 --> 01:42:11,119
Speaker 5: So they think that it's kind of a kill shop.

2084
01:42:11,159 --> 01:42:14,199
Speaker 4: But they don't realize that there's some really obvious problems

2085
01:42:14,199 --> 01:42:16,560
with citing that for soul scripture. First of all, all

2086
01:42:16,560 --> 01:42:19,039
it says is that scripture makes a man sufficient. Doesn't

2087
01:42:19,039 --> 01:42:22,399
say that it's absolutely sufficient for you know, for the

2088
01:42:22,520 --> 01:42:25,239
entire life of the church or for the Christian because

2089
01:42:25,279 --> 01:42:26,920
Paul says, you've got to do other things too, like,

2090
01:42:27,000 --> 01:42:29,560
for example, don't forsake the assembling. Okay, well, that text

2091
01:42:29,560 --> 01:42:32,680
doesn't say that I need to attend the assembly. So

2092
01:42:32,760 --> 01:42:34,760
does that mean that I could just take the Second

2093
01:42:34,760 --> 01:42:37,920
Timothy text and all that I need to, you know,

2094
01:42:37,920 --> 01:42:39,600
for the man of God to be sufficient for every

2095
01:42:39,600 --> 01:42:42,479
good work is to read the scriptures. Now, so it's

2096
01:42:42,640 --> 01:42:46,720
first of all, it's not this universal exclusionary statement. Secondly,

2097
01:42:47,119 --> 01:42:50,000
Paul is talking about the Old Testament there, so if

2098
01:42:50,000 --> 01:42:52,079
we're going to be consistent with that reasoning, then I

2099
01:42:52,119 --> 01:42:54,560
don't need the New Testament because Paul is telling Timothy

2100
01:42:54,640 --> 01:42:57,359
that he's known the scriptures from his youth. Well, what

2101
01:42:57,439 --> 01:43:00,479
he's known from his youth is the Old Testament. So

2102
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:02,600
there is no canon of scripture yet Paul has there's

2103
01:43:02,720 --> 01:43:05,159
books that you know, Book Revelation hasn't been written yet,

2104
01:43:05,199 --> 01:43:08,359
so it doesn't prove sell the scripture. It just proves

2105
01:43:08,399 --> 01:43:11,159
that the scriptures are central and necessary to the life

2106
01:43:11,159 --> 01:43:11,680
of the Christian.

2107
01:43:12,920 --> 01:43:16,479
Speaker 10: And in this verse, would you argue that Paul teaches

2108
01:43:16,520 --> 01:43:18,880
what scripture is, not what books are scripture?

2109
01:43:20,359 --> 01:43:20,520
Speaker 5: Oh?

2110
01:43:20,600 --> 01:43:22,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. When there's not a

2111
01:43:22,359 --> 01:43:24,079
there's not a ken yet. That's that's my point. What

2112
01:43:24,159 --> 01:43:24,520
the canon?

2113
01:43:24,560 --> 01:43:24,680
Speaker 5: You know?

2114
01:43:25,680 --> 01:43:26,000
Speaker 27: Okay?

2115
01:43:26,079 --> 01:43:27,840
Speaker 10: And then one more question, if you don't mind on

2116
01:43:27,880 --> 01:43:32,159
this verse, if you press somebody on it and you

2117
01:43:32,199 --> 01:43:36,840
ask them, okay, was this verse before or after the canonization?

2118
01:43:37,159 --> 01:43:39,640
Would the process and have to thenvite the bullet.

2119
01:43:41,279 --> 01:43:45,000
Speaker 5: Well, of course it was written before the condonization of scriptures.

2120
01:43:45,319 --> 01:43:45,960
Speaker 12: So I know.

2121
01:43:46,079 --> 01:43:48,680
Speaker 10: But if you know, they're very hard headed, so they

2122
01:43:48,800 --> 01:43:51,239
like to use this, like you said.

2123
01:43:50,960 --> 01:43:53,079
Speaker 9: To apply to the Old Testament. But like you said,

2124
01:43:53,079 --> 01:43:54,479
when you actually go into the.

2125
01:43:54,439 --> 01:43:57,640
Speaker 10: Context, Like you said, this was referring to the Old Testament,

2126
01:43:57,680 --> 01:43:59,000
which you would agree with the.

2127
01:43:59,119 --> 01:43:59,720
Speaker 5: A two agent.

2128
01:44:00,359 --> 01:44:02,359
Speaker 10: So in the context of this, how can he be

2129
01:44:02,399 --> 01:44:04,720
referring to the New Testament when we have it even

2130
01:44:04,760 --> 01:44:05,640
oi of canon.

2131
01:44:05,960 --> 01:44:08,760
Speaker 5: Doing that exactly. Yeah, that's a double up good argument.

2132
01:44:08,800 --> 01:44:10,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, because first of all, it is the Old Testament

2133
01:44:11,279 --> 01:44:14,399
primarily Paul's referring to this so too agent, and then

2134
01:44:14,520 --> 01:44:17,039
which has the Doudro canon, which is not the Protestant canon.

2135
01:44:17,039 --> 01:44:19,319
And then secondly, yeah, there's not a New Testament yet,

2136
01:44:19,479 --> 01:44:22,920
Paul is still writing the New Testament. So absolutely, yeah,

2137
01:44:22,920 --> 01:44:25,279
I think those are great arguments. I mean Protestants are

2138
01:44:25,279 --> 01:44:28,319
always going to just be like, you know, well, you

2139
01:44:28,359 --> 01:44:30,439
know it still teaches soul scripture.

2140
01:44:30,640 --> 01:44:30,880
Speaker 5: Well.

2141
01:44:31,000 --> 01:44:33,720
Speaker 4: The other thing too, is that there's other passages where

2142
01:44:33,760 --> 01:44:35,800
Paul also says keep.

2143
01:44:35,600 --> 01:44:37,359
Speaker 5: The traditions, like in Psyche of the Salonian.

2144
01:44:37,439 --> 01:44:39,880
Speaker 4: So you can't just take this one verse and not

2145
01:44:40,039 --> 01:44:42,880
also look at the other things that enjoin upon you,

2146
01:44:43,039 --> 01:44:44,439
other things that are necessary.

2147
01:44:44,680 --> 01:44:47,199
Speaker 7: Nick, did you have any comment, I mean, yeah, I

2148
01:44:47,199 --> 01:44:48,960
just think it's just going to begging the question. I mean,

2149
01:44:48,960 --> 01:44:50,920
if you're just going to say all scripture says this.

2150
01:44:51,199 --> 01:44:54,159
Therefore we must a buie by what scripture says. But

2151
01:44:54,159 --> 01:44:56,920
then you'll actually have some sort of justification as to

2152
01:44:57,079 --> 01:44:58,640
how they know what scripture in the first place.

2153
01:44:59,199 --> 01:45:01,680
Speaker 6: You in the question at that point as even scripture.

2154
01:45:01,720 --> 01:45:02,640
Speaker 5: So good point.

2155
01:45:02,680 --> 01:45:04,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, how do we even know that that's you know,

2156
01:45:04,760 --> 01:45:07,119
part of the canon just because you know Paul wrote it.

2157
01:45:07,760 --> 01:45:09,279
And how do we know Paul wrote that other than

2158
01:45:09,319 --> 01:45:11,840
the tradition that the church hands down to Paul write. Okay,

2159
01:45:11,880 --> 01:45:13,640
here we have I think a Muslim. I mean, what's up?

2160
01:45:17,520 --> 01:45:18,720
You want to unmute.

2161
01:45:20,039 --> 01:45:20,640
Speaker 5: Pojay?

2162
01:45:20,680 --> 01:45:21,159
Speaker 25: What's going on?

2163
01:45:21,279 --> 01:45:21,520
Speaker 5: Hey?

2164
01:45:22,640 --> 01:45:23,199
Speaker 25: What's going on?

2165
01:45:23,279 --> 01:45:23,439
Speaker 1: Nick?

2166
01:45:23,479 --> 01:45:26,359
Speaker 5: But to see you again? What's up? Now? Hey?

2167
01:45:27,000 --> 01:45:27,840
Speaker 20: Quick questions for you.

2168
01:45:27,880 --> 01:45:30,039
Speaker 18: It's a it's one question, but it's in two parts,

2169
01:45:30,199 --> 01:45:31,720
and I'll be as the sink as possible.

2170
01:45:31,880 --> 01:45:34,199
Speaker 4: I'm a Christian by the way, Sorry, I saw I

2171
01:45:34,279 --> 01:45:36,079
mean I saw Arabic. I was like, Okay, we finally

2172
01:45:36,079 --> 01:45:36,720
got a Muslim.

2173
01:45:36,720 --> 01:45:39,880
Speaker 5: But yeah, I started to disappoint. I'm disappointed that you're

2174
01:45:39,880 --> 01:45:40,840
a Christian. I'm joking.

2175
01:45:42,279 --> 01:45:43,479
Speaker 18: So the question.

2176
01:45:43,279 --> 01:45:44,359
Speaker 15: I have is about Eed.

2177
01:45:44,600 --> 01:45:46,760
Speaker 18: I've been reading it a lot for the past couple

2178
01:45:46,800 --> 01:45:47,079
of months.

2179
01:45:47,119 --> 01:45:49,079
Speaker 9: I read the one hundred and fifty chapters.

2180
01:45:49,800 --> 01:45:53,479
Speaker 18: Read Basil's Letter two thirty four, read Saint johny Damascus.

2181
01:45:54,239 --> 01:45:55,800
Speaker 5: But I read a bunch of books on it.

2182
01:45:55,920 --> 01:45:59,680
Speaker 4: And did you read book three about Christology, because that's

2183
01:45:59,680 --> 01:46:01,079
where he really Okay.

2184
01:46:01,439 --> 01:46:02,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, I read book three.

2185
01:46:02,319 --> 01:46:03,640
Speaker 9: I believe that's chapter fifteen.

2186
01:46:05,520 --> 01:46:08,880
Speaker 18: And so the question I have, like, I have an

2187
01:46:08,920 --> 01:46:11,880
understanding of it pretty well, but I don't see any

2188
01:46:12,000 --> 01:46:20,359
church fathers explicitly stating that wisdom itself is an energy.

2189
01:46:20,479 --> 01:46:25,119
And the reason I ask is because you know, Second

2190
01:46:25,159 --> 01:46:27,399
Peter chapter one, verse four says, you know, that's a

2191
01:46:27,479 --> 01:46:30,840
crucial text for ED being partakers of the divine nature.

2192
01:46:31,560 --> 01:46:34,079
Speaker 5: But James chapter one, verse five.

2193
01:46:33,920 --> 01:46:37,239
Speaker 18: Says that if we don't have wisdom, we ought to

2194
01:46:37,319 --> 01:46:39,920
ask of the One of God, and then He'll give

2195
01:46:40,039 --> 01:46:44,680
wisdom to all who ask. And First Corinthians chapter I

2196
01:46:44,760 --> 01:46:46,880
believe this chapter I'm in the car drop. And First

2197
01:46:46,920 --> 01:46:49,720
Corinthians chapter one, verse twenty four, I thinks says Christ

2198
01:46:49,960 --> 01:46:54,279
is the wisdom of God. So my understanding of ED,

2199
01:46:54,920 --> 01:46:58,119
you know, we partake in the energies, not in the essence,

2200
01:46:59,039 --> 01:47:02,119
being that with parts and the wisdom of God.

2201
01:47:02,920 --> 01:47:04,279
Speaker 17: Would that be an energy?

2202
01:47:04,960 --> 01:47:05,359
Speaker 5: It is?

2203
01:47:05,560 --> 01:47:08,760
Speaker 4: And the answer to this question is an athinacious because

2204
01:47:08,800 --> 01:47:11,319
athenacious and a lot of times when he's refuting the Arians.

2205
01:47:12,079 --> 01:47:13,239
And by the way, I have a talk on this

2206
01:47:13,279 --> 01:47:16,920
specific question. It's on my channel. It's really old, it's

2207
01:47:16,960 --> 01:47:19,720
like seven years ago. Because Roman Catholics are trying to

2208
01:47:19,800 --> 01:47:23,039
use this argument that calling Christ the Wisdom of God

2209
01:47:23,199 --> 01:47:28,279
collapses energy or attribute into person. No as this gets

2210
01:47:28,279 --> 01:47:30,359
explained later in the Church Fathers, because we have to

2211
01:47:30,439 --> 01:47:33,119
understand that the reason that there's not explicit statements in

2212
01:47:33,159 --> 01:47:35,920
every first, second, third century Church father about every one

2213
01:47:35,920 --> 01:47:38,319
of these issues is that the issues aren't raised yet.

2214
01:47:38,600 --> 01:47:42,600
Nobody has really significantly questioned the essence inergy distinction until

2215
01:47:42,720 --> 01:47:45,159
you get mainly to Christology.

2216
01:47:44,520 --> 01:47:46,840
Speaker 5: Is where it really gets. It hits the nitty gritty.

2217
01:47:47,079 --> 01:47:50,439
Speaker 4: So what ends up happening is that remember, all of

2218
01:47:50,479 --> 01:47:55,039
the energies or attributes, they have a triadic movement they

2219
01:47:55,159 --> 01:47:58,520
proceed or move. This is called the energetic procession. They

2220
01:47:58,560 --> 01:48:02,000
proceed from the Father through the Son in the spirit.

2221
01:48:02,439 --> 01:48:05,760
So that applies not just to the generation of the persons,

2222
01:48:05,760 --> 01:48:08,600
but also the movement of the energies. And that means

2223
01:48:08,680 --> 01:48:12,439
that every energy or attribute you could also say the

2224
01:48:12,439 --> 01:48:16,159
Son is the love of the Father. Well, does that

2225
01:48:16,239 --> 01:48:20,680
mean that Jesus is love, because we also have statements

2226
01:48:20,680 --> 01:48:23,600
that the Holy Spirit is the love. Right, Well, it's

2227
01:48:23,640 --> 01:48:27,680
the manifestation in that sense, where the Holy Spirit manifests

2228
01:48:27,760 --> 01:48:30,520
the love of God, the Son of God manifests the

2229
01:48:30,560 --> 01:48:32,760
wisdom of the Father or the wisdom of God. But

2230
01:48:33,479 --> 01:48:38,880
just to in some passages equate person and energy does

2231
01:48:38,920 --> 01:48:44,199
not mean they're isomorphically like merged, or that they're subsumed.

2232
01:48:44,479 --> 01:48:47,039
There's still an essence energy to distinction. But it's not

2233
01:48:47,199 --> 01:48:50,720
wrong to call the Son the wisdom of God. And

2234
01:48:50,760 --> 01:48:53,079
you see this in the argumentation about this, and I

2235
01:48:53,159 --> 01:48:55,239
understand this because this actually tripped me up one time

2236
01:48:55,439 --> 01:48:58,159
back in about twenty fifteen. I was actually tripped up

2237
01:48:58,159 --> 01:48:59,840
by this question. I was debating a guy who in

2238
01:48:59,880 --> 01:49:02,640
the Leaving Orthodoxy and he was arguing with me, and

2239
01:49:02,640 --> 01:49:05,960
he said, why would we call the Son the wisdom

2240
01:49:06,000 --> 01:49:10,000
of God in Athenasius when wisdom is an energy of God.

2241
01:49:10,600 --> 01:49:13,560
And the answer is, you have to get later into

2242
01:49:13,960 --> 01:49:18,560
the doctrine of the procession and the manifestation of the energies.

2243
01:49:18,600 --> 01:49:19,720
Speaker 5: And that's the answer exactly.

2244
01:49:20,399 --> 01:49:22,800
Speaker 18: And okay, so then this goes into the second part

2245
01:49:22,800 --> 01:49:23,359
of my question.

2246
01:49:23,600 --> 01:49:26,079
Speaker 5: And sorry for you know, talking us out, but.

2247
01:49:26,359 --> 01:49:32,920
Speaker 18: It's to me, this is really interesting because I was researching,

2248
01:49:33,119 --> 01:49:36,479
you know, some some rebuttals and I was writing about this,

2249
01:49:36,600 --> 01:49:41,159
actually some rebuttals to Mark thirteen thirty two. Now Saint

2250
01:49:41,239 --> 01:49:44,399
Basil and I actually do look up like I actually

2251
01:49:44,520 --> 01:49:47,600
use some of those writings from on the Incarnation. It's

2252
01:49:47,600 --> 01:49:50,680
like in section fifty four where he talks about how

2253
01:49:51,520 --> 01:49:54,840
God became man so that man can become God, and

2254
01:49:54,880 --> 01:50:00,600
this goes into chaosis. What's really interesting is that Basil

2255
01:50:00,840 --> 01:50:05,279
in letter two thirty six, where he talks about he

2256
01:50:05,399 --> 01:50:08,880
gives like two really good reasons as to why Christ

2257
01:50:08,920 --> 01:50:12,479
does know the hour. The first reason he gives is rhetoric.

2258
01:50:13,079 --> 01:50:15,680
He says, you know, the term no man can be used.

2259
01:50:15,520 --> 01:50:16,279
Speaker 8: It's rhetorical.

2260
01:50:16,920 --> 01:50:20,319
Speaker 18: But then he says something really interesting, and he says,

2261
01:50:20,800 --> 01:50:25,840
he basically says that because of monarchical trinitarianism, Jesus does

2262
01:50:25,880 --> 01:50:30,199
not say that he knows the hour because knowledge starts

2263
01:50:30,199 --> 01:50:31,920
with the Father first.

2264
01:50:32,199 --> 01:50:36,000
Speaker 4: And yeah, well, everything that the son, everything the son

2265
01:50:36,119 --> 01:50:38,880
has is a dependent relationship on the Father.

2266
01:50:39,000 --> 01:50:40,479
Speaker 5: So that's correct exactly.

2267
01:50:40,600 --> 01:50:43,600
Speaker 18: So it started it started getting me thinking Okay, So

2268
01:50:44,840 --> 01:50:47,279
if that's going to be the case, then would this

2269
01:50:47,399 --> 01:50:50,079
also be a reason as to why Christ knows the hour,

2270
01:50:50,199 --> 01:50:53,520
because I mean, would you say that wisdom is synonymous

2271
01:50:54,079 --> 01:50:55,640
with omniscience?

2272
01:51:00,079 --> 01:51:02,279
Speaker 5: That's a good question. You'd have to actually look at

2273
01:51:02,319 --> 01:51:05,800
a lot of the patriistic like explanations and exegesis of

2274
01:51:05,840 --> 01:51:07,319
what exactly.

2275
01:51:08,680 --> 01:51:11,840
Speaker 4: Is the connotation of divine wisdom. I mean, sometimes they

2276
01:51:11,880 --> 01:51:15,319
describe it as like the plan of creation, sometimes because

2277
01:51:15,319 --> 01:51:18,119
of Proverbs seven and eight. Sometimes they describe wisdom as

2278
01:51:19,279 --> 01:51:21,319
I mean, sometimes it's even described as the Holy Spirit,

2279
01:51:21,359 --> 01:51:24,399
for example in Syric and in Wisdom.

2280
01:51:24,760 --> 01:51:25,880
Speaker 5: The Book of Wisdom, like.

2281
01:51:25,840 --> 01:51:28,159
Speaker 4: The Holy Spirit won't come and and bid it in

2282
01:51:28,159 --> 01:51:32,800
a soul that is unrepentant or impure, And so it

2283
01:51:33,840 --> 01:51:36,279
calls what dibides in you in one place wisdom, and

2284
01:51:36,319 --> 01:51:38,640
then another place the Holy Spirit. So we have also

2285
01:51:38,720 --> 01:51:42,000
the identification of wisdom with the Holy Spirit we have

2286
01:51:42,079 --> 01:51:44,560
in other places. Where As you said, Christ is called

2287
01:51:44,600 --> 01:51:48,079
the wisdom of God. So wisdom is an energy common

2288
01:51:48,159 --> 01:51:52,680
to all three, but manifests as every energy does, in

2289
01:51:52,720 --> 01:51:55,079
a unique way in each person. So the Father is

2290
01:51:55,119 --> 01:51:58,119
the source of wisdom. The Son would be a unique

2291
01:51:58,159 --> 01:52:00,920
manifestation of wisdom and the Holy would be a unique

2292
01:52:00,920 --> 01:52:04,720
manifestation of the wisdom of God. So I think that's

2293
01:52:05,319 --> 01:52:07,039
but I think you're right to point to Basil in

2294
01:52:07,079 --> 01:52:11,039
terms of monarchical trinitarianism there too. And I did my talk,

2295
01:52:11,079 --> 01:52:12,720
by the way, is called I am that I am

2296
01:52:12,880 --> 01:52:16,279
essence energy sant athinacious instead of a conscious cults because

2297
01:52:16,840 --> 01:52:21,159
this argument was actually a Diamond Brothers tradcat argument that

2298
01:52:21,239 --> 01:52:24,079
was used a long time ago. That well, Athanasius says,

2299
01:52:24,920 --> 01:52:26,960
Jesus is a wisdom of God, so wisdom is a

2300
01:52:27,000 --> 01:52:29,439
divine essence and they're all the same. They don't realize

2301
01:52:29,479 --> 01:52:31,000
how dumb that would be an at Trent. It would

2302
01:52:31,000 --> 01:52:33,279
be modalist like to so if you're going to collapse,

2303
01:52:33,600 --> 01:52:35,880
if Jesus is an energy and an attribute, and the

2304
01:52:35,880 --> 01:52:38,600
attributes are identical to the essence, then Jesus is the essence,

2305
01:52:38,640 --> 01:52:39,439
and now you're a modalist.

2306
01:52:39,479 --> 01:52:40,239
Speaker 5: It's really stupid.

2307
01:52:40,279 --> 01:52:43,560
Speaker 4: But so there's there's one more thing I want I

2308
01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:45,800
want to recommend to you. You should read Christis in

2309
01:52:45,840 --> 01:52:48,399
Byzantium by Papadocus if you haven't read that, because this

2310
01:52:48,600 --> 01:52:51,119
is very it's a very important book for eternal manifestation.

2311
01:52:51,239 --> 01:52:52,960
Speaker 5: And also you should.

2312
01:52:52,640 --> 01:53:00,079
Speaker 4: Read uh Florowsky's paper called Athanacious and the Doctrine of Care,

2313
01:53:00,479 --> 01:53:04,319
because he shows definitively that Athinatius teaches the essence in interestinction.

2314
01:53:04,720 --> 01:53:07,319
Speaker 7: And read aways the most solemn and specifically chapter seven

2315
01:53:07,359 --> 01:53:10,239
through ten, those are good for seeing wisdom as a person.

2316
01:53:10,399 --> 01:53:15,560
Speaker 4: Wisdom seven through ten, Yeah, exactly teaches the personification of

2317
01:53:15,600 --> 01:53:16,039
the spirit.

2318
01:53:17,039 --> 01:53:18,520
Speaker 15: Okay, yeah, because.

2319
01:53:18,279 --> 01:53:20,520
Speaker 18: I know inen on chapter seventy five, on the one

2320
01:53:20,600 --> 01:53:25,079
hundred and fifty chapters, Palamas explicitly states that I believe

2321
01:53:25,079 --> 01:53:26,880
he's like I said, I'm driving, but I believe he

2322
01:53:26,960 --> 01:53:28,319
says something to the effect.

2323
01:53:28,039 --> 01:53:29,720
Speaker 9: Of there's three realities in God.

2324
01:53:30,479 --> 01:53:34,439
Speaker 18: There is the essence, there are a tryad of persons,

2325
01:53:34,760 --> 01:53:36,359
and then there's the energy.

2326
01:53:36,520 --> 01:53:38,800
Speaker 4: So even by the way this is, this is, it

2327
01:53:38,800 --> 01:53:41,439
doesn't make any sense exactly. And I'm glad you mentioned

2328
01:53:41,439 --> 01:53:43,439
that because this is when you hear me always say,

2329
01:53:43,680 --> 01:53:46,880
Palamas talks about there's three planes in God, PLA and E.

2330
01:53:47,800 --> 01:53:50,039
That's the thing I'm referring to that right there.

2331
01:53:50,840 --> 01:53:53,000
Speaker 18: Okay, all right, guys, Well I won't take up too

2332
01:53:53,039 --> 01:53:54,760
much of your time, thank you so much, and I'll

2333
01:53:54,800 --> 01:53:57,000
get on those those.

2334
01:53:55,760 --> 01:53:59,079
Speaker 4: Are good job, man, you're doing really good reading there.

2335
01:53:59,319 --> 01:54:02,279
You're on the right, right, Nick, Do you want to

2336
01:54:02,279 --> 01:54:03,000
say anything about that?

2337
01:54:03,840 --> 01:54:05,399
Speaker 6: No, I'll just say Wisdom seven through ten.

2338
01:54:05,439 --> 01:54:07,319
Speaker 7: I mean it's it's really good for if he wants

2339
01:54:07,359 --> 01:54:10,520
to learn the personification portion of it. I mean it

2340
01:54:10,560 --> 01:54:14,359
literally calls wisdom like I'm the president. Omnistion says that

2341
01:54:14,439 --> 01:54:17,159
it was the one who rescued them in the flood.

2342
01:54:17,359 --> 01:54:21,279
So it's like actually action bearing someone that's doing something.

2343
01:54:22,119 --> 01:54:24,159
So I think it's literally the most clear thing ever.

2344
01:54:24,720 --> 01:54:26,079
And just a lot of people just don't read it

2345
01:54:26,119 --> 01:54:29,439
because you know, most people that convert the Orthodoxy come

2346
01:54:29,439 --> 01:54:32,159
from a Protestant background and they're never taught these books,

2347
01:54:32,159 --> 01:54:33,399
so I never think to look into them.

2348
01:54:33,479 --> 01:54:35,840
Speaker 6: Exactly when I read Wisdom Asylum, and I was so

2349
01:54:35,880 --> 01:54:36,680
mad that I was.

2350
01:54:36,760 --> 01:54:37,520
Speaker 5: You know that private.

2351
01:54:37,760 --> 01:54:39,920
Speaker 4: I was felt the same way because I went when

2352
01:54:39,920 --> 01:54:41,319
I became calvit I can do thousand and three, I

2353
01:54:41,319 --> 01:54:42,640
sat reading the Duo Can I was like, how, why

2354
01:54:42,680 --> 01:54:45,279
do why were we deprived of this? And then when

2355
01:54:45,279 --> 01:54:48,119
I became orthodox, I reread the Duro Canon and we

2356
01:54:48,199 --> 01:54:49,880
on my on my channel, guys, we do have a

2357
01:54:49,960 --> 01:54:51,800
lecture through the entirety of Serruk. If you want to

2358
01:54:51,840 --> 01:54:54,880
go back and find the the serrict lectures. Don says,

2359
01:54:55,000 --> 01:54:58,760
I'm a former atheist, I converted. H I'm a current agnostic.

2360
01:54:59,760 --> 01:55:01,800
I I have bought that Mind of God book that

2361
01:55:01,840 --> 01:55:03,359
you're recommended by Paul Davies.

2362
01:55:03,439 --> 01:55:04,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a good book.

2363
01:55:04,399 --> 01:55:07,159
Speaker 4: I worked through the Prestocratics, Plato, Clement, Philo for my

2364
01:55:07,199 --> 01:55:07,720
first time.

2365
01:55:07,760 --> 01:55:09,439
Speaker 5: I've dabbled in some of Neoplatonism.

2366
01:55:09,800 --> 01:55:12,520
Speaker 4: What is the Church Father I should read first? Well,

2367
01:55:12,520 --> 01:55:14,840
I would say, if you're coming from an agnostic perspective,

2368
01:55:14,960 --> 01:55:19,279
I would start with something like Saint Athanasius's essay ad Gentees,

2369
01:55:19,359 --> 01:55:23,159
because it's a pretty good little apologetic against like paganism

2370
01:55:23,199 --> 01:55:23,760
and whatnot.

2371
01:55:24,279 --> 01:55:29,479
Speaker 5: And then I would read something like the hold on,

2372
01:55:29,520 --> 01:55:31,399
I want my camera here, I gotta get it straight.

2373
01:55:31,920 --> 01:55:36,920
Speaker 4: Then I would read, uh, maybe Fount of Knowledge by

2374
01:55:36,960 --> 01:55:39,439
John Damascus, because he gives a good kind of layout

2375
01:55:39,479 --> 01:55:45,840
of Patristic philosophy. But like I said, in terms of

2376
01:55:46,399 --> 01:55:49,279
triadic theology, I would not begin with August, and I

2377
01:55:49,279 --> 01:55:52,960
would begin with the Cappadocians, like the Five Orations of

2378
01:55:52,960 --> 01:55:55,119
Gregor Nacianzys. And that's a little book you can get

2379
01:55:55,119 --> 01:55:57,800
from Saint Vladimir's, so I would start with those to

2380
01:55:57,840 --> 01:55:59,520
get introduced to patristic theology.

2381
01:55:59,680 --> 01:56:00,720
Speaker 5: Zane for one hundred dollars.

2382
01:56:00,760 --> 01:56:03,000
Speaker 4: What's up man, that y'all are being generous now because

2383
01:56:03,000 --> 01:56:04,760
we've said it's my birthday. I gotta say it's my

2384
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:07,840
birthday every time I do a stream. Now it's suddenly

2385
01:56:07,840 --> 01:56:12,359
gonna be a lot of birthdays around here. It's hold on,

2386
01:56:12,359 --> 01:56:14,079
we got a bunch more super chats on missed, let

2387
01:56:14,079 --> 01:56:20,920
me go back. It's GREASYAC, It's Grizzyac. It's twenty dollars.

2388
01:56:21,239 --> 01:56:23,840
God bless you both, Jay and Nick. Happy birthday, Jay,

2389
01:56:23,960 --> 01:56:24,439
Thank you man.

2390
01:56:24,520 --> 01:56:28,479
Speaker 5: Appreciate that guys are being really generous today.

2391
01:56:29,720 --> 01:56:34,399
Speaker 4: WEV man y'all's names, dude, Like, can't somebody just come

2392
01:56:34,479 --> 01:56:38,359
up with like a pronounceable basic name. Y'all come up

2393
01:56:38,399 --> 01:56:43,960
with the craziest names on here. Wev Citikulo twenty eight dollars.

2394
01:56:44,119 --> 01:56:45,239
Speaker 5: Jay. I love your videos.

2395
01:56:45,319 --> 01:56:49,520
Speaker 4: I heard you on Lord Valdemart say the PA N

2396
01:56:49,640 --> 01:56:52,720
D E M I C was PLA N Was it

2397
01:56:52,800 --> 01:56:53,359
all fake?

2398
01:56:53,560 --> 01:56:53,720
Speaker 6: Well?

2399
01:56:53,760 --> 01:56:56,000
Speaker 4: I mean I think people got sick, people got something,

2400
01:56:57,720 --> 01:56:59,920
So I don't think everything was fake but I don't

2401
01:57:00,119 --> 01:57:02,000
think that a lot of what we were you know,

2402
01:57:02,159 --> 01:57:07,359
told and sold was real. Was all of this intentional

2403
01:57:08,039 --> 01:57:08,880
and also real?

2404
01:57:09,000 --> 01:57:10,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, to a degree.

2405
01:57:11,199 --> 01:57:13,399
Speaker 4: I'm not a virologist, so I don't know exactly how

2406
01:57:13,479 --> 01:57:16,000
that works, but I think that there was something going around.

2407
01:57:16,039 --> 01:57:18,680
I think it was. You know, well, we're on YouTube,

2408
01:57:18,680 --> 01:57:21,680
but you know you get the idea, Ja Juan, five dollars.

2409
01:57:21,880 --> 01:57:25,720
Speaker 5: What do you think about maaphysitism versus diephysitism? Well, we are.

2410
01:57:26,600 --> 01:57:29,840
Speaker 4: We are currently going through a massive lecture series on

2411
01:57:29,880 --> 01:57:33,079
my channel. If you type in Oriental Orthodoxy Refuted, you'll

2412
01:57:33,119 --> 01:57:35,720
get four or five installments that we've done so far,

2413
01:57:35,760 --> 01:57:38,640
and I think we're going to do eventually ten. What

2414
01:57:38,800 --> 01:57:42,520
exists after the incarnation? Two wills, two natures and two

2415
01:57:42,600 --> 01:57:45,640
energies in one single divine hypostasis.

2416
01:57:46,119 --> 01:57:47,199
Speaker 5: How are the operations in.

2417
01:57:47,239 --> 01:57:49,880
Speaker 4: Will different between the two? Well, one of them is

2418
01:57:49,920 --> 01:57:51,319
created and one of those uncreated.

2419
01:57:52,039 --> 01:57:53,840
Speaker 5: That's the difference. True.

2420
01:57:54,039 --> 01:57:57,920
Speaker 4: Five dollars, Jay, Nick, Where are all the Muslims and

2421
01:57:57,960 --> 01:58:03,119
the Mormons at get them in here? We're trying are scared. Listen,

2422
01:58:03,439 --> 01:58:07,560
you guys can be the recruiters. So you got the link,

2423
01:58:08,359 --> 01:58:11,359
Send that link to you all your Mormon buddies and

2424
01:58:11,359 --> 01:58:12,319
your Muslim buddies.

2425
01:58:12,520 --> 01:58:14,920
Speaker 6: So the link is in it on Twitter TikTok on,

2426
01:58:15,079 --> 01:58:15,680
I guess.

2427
01:58:16,119 --> 01:58:17,159
Speaker 5: The link is in the chat.

2428
01:58:18,199 --> 01:58:21,199
Speaker 4: Zain says for one hundred dollars, science isn't the problem

2429
01:58:21,239 --> 01:58:22,800
as in science itself.

2430
01:58:23,279 --> 01:58:26,119
Speaker 5: Rather it's a deduction method for the physical world. I

2431
01:58:26,159 --> 01:58:27,560
agree with that, sure, yeah.

2432
01:58:27,600 --> 01:58:31,159
Speaker 4: I think science is a tool for studying and understanding

2433
01:58:31,199 --> 01:58:32,399
the natural world, and that's it.

2434
01:58:32,920 --> 01:58:34,119
Speaker 5: So it's a limited tool.

2435
01:58:34,239 --> 01:58:37,239
Speaker 4: It can't tell you, for example, grand narratives of where

2436
01:58:37,239 --> 01:58:38,920
we came from and all this kind of stuff, and

2437
01:58:38,920 --> 01:58:42,520
that's where science goes outside of its bounds and becomes scientism.

2438
01:58:42,920 --> 01:58:43,600
Speaker 5: The problem with.

2439
01:58:43,600 --> 01:58:46,359
Speaker 4: Science is that they use a quote mathematical theory such

2440
01:58:46,359 --> 01:58:48,560
as multiverse or quote dark matter.

2441
01:58:48,640 --> 01:58:50,680
Speaker 5: By the way, that's all speculation.

2442
01:58:50,159 --> 01:58:55,119
Speaker 4: In metaphysics, which supposedly modern science and scientism is against.

2443
01:58:56,680 --> 01:58:59,439
They say it is true and that it exists and

2444
01:58:59,600 --> 01:59:04,159
almost purely metaphysical way exactly. That's the main critique is

2445
01:59:04,159 --> 01:59:04,239
that