1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: Hey wanna thank you for supporting all of my podcasts, 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,280 all seventeen of them, and now they are centrally located. 3 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,160 You don't have to go to a digital platform going 4 00:00:08,199 --> 00:00:10,839 what did he say? Just go to Aero dot net, 5 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:14,679 a r roe dot net and enjoy. Thank you so 6 00:00:14,759 --> 00:00:17,160 much for all your love and support. Matthew Davis. I 7 00:00:17,199 --> 00:00:18,839 wish I would have had this book back in the 8 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,359 latter part of the nineteen sixties when I was studying 9 00:00:21,359 --> 00:00:23,960 Mount Rushmore in the state of Montana, because this book 10 00:00:24,039 --> 00:00:26,800 right here is more than I ever wish I could 11 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:28,960 ever have as a child. And you have no idea 12 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:30,320 what you're doing to my imagination. 13 00:00:32,399 --> 00:00:34,359 Speaker 2: That's great, that's great. To hell, thanks for having me 14 00:00:34,399 --> 00:00:34,799 on aara. 15 00:00:35,079 --> 00:00:37,399 Speaker 1: Oh my god, where did you dig up all this information? 16 00:00:37,439 --> 00:00:40,439 Because there's just so much about this and the people 17 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,200 and the and the inner battles and the challenges and 18 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,759 oh my god. I mean it's like you really go 19 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:46,640 to town on. 20 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 3: This westward expansion, our relationship to indigenous communities, our search 21 00:00:51,039 --> 00:00:54,560 for gold, you know, our creativity or ambition. These these 22 00:00:54,719 --> 00:00:58,359 code words are important words like democracy and freedom. They 23 00:00:58,399 --> 00:01:00,439 all sort of come together in Mount rush More and 24 00:01:00,479 --> 00:01:03,920 it really allowed me as a writer a lot of 25 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,840 leeway to explore different kinds of topics and issues. 26 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,799 Speaker 1: I would love to see your notes though, I really would, Matthew, 27 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:12,680 because I want to see how you put this together 28 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,120 in the way that you do it in chronological form. 29 00:01:15,239 --> 00:01:17,159 But at the same time, you're allowing me to see 30 00:01:17,159 --> 00:01:18,560 the future. And I don't know if it's because as 31 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:20,079 a reader, I know the future. 32 00:01:22,439 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thank you for that. 33 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 3: I mean, I think part of it is starting the 34 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,359 book starts in July through twenty twenty and sort of 35 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,879 then works its way backwards and then comes back out 36 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,400 to that to the present day. And I think, you know, 37 00:01:33,519 --> 00:01:35,359 that's one of the things that I'm really hoping to 38 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,719 get forward in this book is that the present really 39 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,239 deeply influences the past. And what I mean by that 40 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,200 is that how we think about the past today, you know, 41 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,120 impacts and what's happening today impacts how we think about 42 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,599 the past. And so, you know, as we as people, 43 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:53,799 as we as Americans are celebrating our two hundred and 44 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,079 fiftieth birthday, questions about how we got here. For me, 45 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,840 the question of well, how did Mount Rushmore or get 46 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,200 into the Black Hills really allowed me to look at 47 00:02:04,239 --> 00:02:06,599 the present day and then go backwards to sort of 48 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:07,519 answer that question. 49 00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, my father useduld call the Mount Rushmore. 50 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:12,719 He said, yeah, we don't have to go to Saint 51 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:14,520 Louis to see the arch. When you want to get 52 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,560 into the real wild West, it starts at Mount Rushmore. 53 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 2: Was he wrong? 54 00:02:20,199 --> 00:02:22,199 Speaker 3: That's interesting. I have never heard that before. But I 55 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,199 don't think he is wrong. I mean, I think that 56 00:02:24,319 --> 00:02:27,159 you have if you're talking about the wild West, Okay, 57 00:02:27,199 --> 00:02:30,759 what that conjures you're really talking I think about about 58 00:02:30,759 --> 00:02:33,439 sort of three things, Right, You're talking about gold rushes, 59 00:02:33,479 --> 00:02:36,840 You're talking about our relationships with indigenous communities, and you're 60 00:02:36,879 --> 00:02:39,759 talking about sort of this sort of individual lawlessness that 61 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:41,879 sort of associated with the wild West. And I think 62 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:46,319 all three of those things are deeply important at Mount Rushmore, 63 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,159 and in particular, you know, the reason, the reason why 64 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,680 the memorial is controversial, the reason why I think it's 65 00:02:52,719 --> 00:02:55,159 important to take a wide lens view of it is 66 00:02:55,199 --> 00:02:58,439 because of the land itself and our relationship, in particular 67 00:02:58,479 --> 00:03:01,719 with the Lakota Nation. Right, you had the United States 68 00:03:01,759 --> 00:03:04,240 and the Lakota signed a treaty in eighteen sixty eight, 69 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,879 called the Treaty of Fort Laramie. In that treaty, the 70 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,599 US basically sued for peace and gave the Lakota a 71 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:13,639 lot of land which included present day western South Dakota, 72 00:03:13,719 --> 00:03:16,439 which included the Black Hills of South Dakota, which of 73 00:03:16,439 --> 00:03:19,599 course is where Mount Rushmore is today. And no sooner 74 00:03:19,879 --> 00:03:22,400 was that treaty signed than several years later it was 75 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,960 violated after George Custer was defeated and the Battle Little Beecorn, 76 00:03:28,039 --> 00:03:30,280 the Battle of Greasy Grass as a Native Americans call 77 00:03:30,319 --> 00:03:33,199 it in your home state of Montana, the United States 78 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,159 was enraged at this defeat and took over the Black Hills, 79 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,719 breaking the treaty. And so that legacy is very present 80 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,159 at the memorial today, and it's sort of a history 81 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,039 that sometimes is there and sometimes it is not. 82 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:47,919 Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Matthew Davis coming 83 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,240 up next. Hey, thanks for coming back to my conversation 84 00:03:51,479 --> 00:03:55,319 with Matthew Davis. You just said something here where you 85 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,159 opened up my heart. Because nobody talks about the Greasy 86 00:03:58,199 --> 00:04:01,919 Grass of Montana because unless you have really done your 87 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,080 homework and you understand what that area of history is 88 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,479 all about. Man I commend you on that you understand 89 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:09,960 where this process took place. 90 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: Thank you, I appreciate that. 91 00:04:13,719 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: But the thing is that you bring up Custer. I 92 00:04:16,519 --> 00:04:18,240 guess the angle that I had growing up in the 93 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,920 state of Montana was I was on the Native American side. 94 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,360 That's just who I am as a person, and so 95 00:04:23,439 --> 00:04:25,759 to see what was going on on that sacred land 96 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,040 to this day, my heart is still going why there 97 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,000 had to have been another place. But then again, in 98 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:33,680 reading the book, I'm going, no, I think it was 99 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,600 the perfect place, because this is if that ground was 100 00:04:36,759 --> 00:04:39,279 so sacred, then Mount Rushmore had to happen. 101 00:04:41,079 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. 102 00:04:41,319 --> 00:04:44,439 Speaker 3: Well, I think one of the interesting things about why 103 00:04:44,519 --> 00:04:47,120 Mount Rushmore came to be in the Black Hills is 104 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,480 that the story is more of an economic story than 105 00:04:50,519 --> 00:04:51,439 a political story. 106 00:04:51,519 --> 00:04:51,959 Speaker 2: I mean, I. 107 00:04:51,879 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 3: Think because people view the memorial itself as this very ambitious, 108 00:04:57,879 --> 00:05:01,399 giant monument. Many as soon that it was the federal 109 00:05:01,439 --> 00:05:03,360 government that said, you know what, We're going to build 110 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,439 a memorial in the Black Hills. But really the idea 111 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,920 was from a state historian in South Dakota, a guy 112 00:05:09,959 --> 00:05:14,199 named Doan Robinson, who was very attuned to the economic 113 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,399 fluctuations of South Dakota in the nineteen twenties, and at 114 00:05:17,439 --> 00:05:19,800 that time, the state was going through a very difficult 115 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:24,120 economic period, and Doan Robinson wanted to diversify South Dakota's 116 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,959 economy away from agriculture and commodities, and so he had 117 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,279 an idea to build a sculpture in the Black Hills 118 00:05:31,519 --> 00:05:34,319 that would attract car tourists that were beginning to grow 119 00:05:34,439 --> 00:05:36,759 around this part of the United States. And so he 120 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,839 wanted to create sculptures in the Black Hills that were 121 00:05:39,959 --> 00:05:44,160 representative of the American West, like people like Custer, people 122 00:05:44,199 --> 00:05:47,240 like the Great Lakota Leader Red Cloud, people like Saka 123 00:05:47,319 --> 00:05:50,360 Joweyah who guided Lewis and Clark West, people like Lewis 124 00:05:50,399 --> 00:05:52,920 and Clark. So that was his initial idea and it 125 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,160 was a way to drum up tourism. Now, when the 126 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,199 idea came into the hands of the sculptor of Mount Rushmore, 127 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,480 a men in guns Borglum, Yes, it completely changed and 128 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,839 metamorphosed into a much more political project that I think 129 00:06:05,879 --> 00:06:07,560 has lasting resonance today. 130 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: I can't be the only one time kid who still 131 00:06:10,879 --> 00:06:13,519 sits there and looks at Mount Rushmore, going can they 132 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:15,680 really fit another face up there? Or are we going 133 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:17,600 to have to continue this story in another part of 134 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:18,160 the country. 135 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 3: Most people you speak to will tell you that there 136 00:06:22,759 --> 00:06:25,199 is no room for another face on Mount Rushmore. 137 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,439 Speaker 2: Geologically, it's just not possible. 138 00:06:27,519 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 3: And you know, I don't know if that means that 139 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,040 it will never be attempted, but I think most people 140 00:06:33,079 --> 00:06:34,160 say that it can never be done. 141 00:06:34,319 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, but do we have the time. Let's be honest, Matthew. 142 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,800 We are the generation that wants everything right now. And 143 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,439 you can look at Crazy Horse, which is still unfinished, 144 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,279 and sit there and say, I mean, look, how many 145 00:06:44,319 --> 00:06:45,319 years have gone by. 146 00:06:47,439 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great point. Crazy Horse Memorial is right 147 00:06:50,079 --> 00:06:51,959 down the road from Mount Rushmore, and that is an 148 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,800 ongoing memorial that is still not completed, although it's under 149 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:57,560 new leadership now and I think there's a lot of 150 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,160 hope that it might get completed at some point. But 151 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,680 even you know, in the way that Mount Rushmore was 152 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,360 built in the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties, it would 153 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,639 be an entirely different process today. I mean, back then, 154 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,480 there was no laser technology. There weren't even environmental studies 155 00:07:12,519 --> 00:07:15,839 that were done on whether it could happen. Gunsten Borgland 156 00:07:15,839 --> 00:07:18,959 the sculptor really had to act on faith to try 157 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,800 to get this thing completed, and he ended up, you know, 158 00:07:22,839 --> 00:07:24,920 completing it, at least he didn't complete it to what 159 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:26,480 he had originally envisioned. 160 00:07:26,519 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 2: But the four faces stand today. 161 00:07:29,639 --> 00:07:32,279 Speaker 1: You know, I are you getting speaking engagements there at 162 00:07:32,319 --> 00:07:34,560 Mount Rushmore, and I would love to see you even 163 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:36,920 at Battle of the Little Big Horn, that monument there. 164 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,600 And the reason why is because all of this is connected, 165 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,120 and that's what people need to understand. It's all connected 166 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:44,160 together in history. 167 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 2: It is all connected together in history. 168 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:48,439 Speaker 3: And that's one of the things I try to do 169 00:07:48,519 --> 00:07:50,560 in my book, A biography of a mountain is really 170 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,199 sort of with this through line, show how the memorial. 171 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: Came to be. I will be speaking in South Dakota. 172 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 3: I will not be at the actual memorial itself, but 173 00:07:59,079 --> 00:08:00,920 I'll be doing a couple of events in Rapid City. 174 00:08:00,959 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 2: I would love to come to the bat a little big. 175 00:08:02,839 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 3: Corner to Montana and speak there as well, because I think, 176 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,040 you know, obviously that story what happened on that battlefield 177 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,199 is absolutely crucial to the story of Mount Rushmore. 178 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,199 Speaker 1: Gerard Baker, we don't hear much about this guy. Hopefully 179 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,439 they're talking about him there because I mean, this guy 180 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,480 was the first. But does everybody know his. 181 00:08:20,439 --> 00:08:24,399 Speaker 2: Name Gerard Baker? No? No one. I mean I wouldn't 182 00:08:24,399 --> 00:08:24,680 say no. 183 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 3: People know Gerard bag people within certain communities in the 184 00:08:27,839 --> 00:08:31,040 National Park Service, and Native Americans know Gerard Baker. But 185 00:08:31,079 --> 00:08:33,720 he was the first. He was the first Native American 186 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,360 superintendent of Mount Rushmore. And he was the one that 187 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,320 introduced a lot of different Lakota themes, Native American themes 188 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,879 to the memorial that still continue today, and that really 189 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,320 expanded the story of Mount Rushmore. 190 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: Wow, where can people go to find out more about you, Matthew, 191 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,200 Because I want them to dive into your research because 192 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,879 you get it. You understand the process of preservation in 193 00:08:55,919 --> 00:08:56,399 this nation. 194 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,519 Speaker 3: The best way to reached me is to go to 195 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,240 my website matthewdaviswriter dot com and you can find all 196 00:09:03,279 --> 00:09:04,799 different ways to interrupt with me there. 197 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: Well, you got to come back to this show anytime 198 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,039 in the future, dude. I mean, heck, I'd like to 199 00:09:08,039 --> 00:09:09,639 meet you out there in Montana where we could just 200 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:10,519 go for a walk. 201 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:13,639 Speaker 2: That would be great. It can have me on any 202 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:14,960 time or I really appreciate it. 203 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: Man, Will you be brilliant today. 204 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 2: Okay, thank you, appreciate it.