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Good 55 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:19.039 Evening experience some of the most intense hostage, serial homicide, 56 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:23.680 mass casualty, stalking, and violent true believer cases encountered by 57 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:27.719 an expert during his thirty year police and forensic psychology career. 58 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:31.719 Some of the scariest and most interesting criminals are broken 59 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:35.199 down and analyzed by doctor Chris Muhandi, an expert police 60 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:38.479 and forensic psychologist who has met and evaluated some of 61 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:41.520 the most dangerous people who have walked among us. This 62 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:44.159 book has numerous first hand accounts of his work and 63 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:47.960 interviews for cases like the Angel of Death, serial killer, racist, 64 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:52.479 serial assassin, Joseph Paul Franklin, and even the OJ Simpson case. 65 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:57.319 Detailed case information, including excerpts of interviews he's conducted with 66 00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:01.000 these Offenders provides a platform to learn shocking new information 67 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:07.000 about hostage takers, serial killers, mass murderers, violent true believers, terrorists, 68 00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:10.000 and some of the worst predators on the planet. The 69 00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:13.240 book that we're featuring this evening is Evil Thoughts Wicked Deeds, 70 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:18.279 with my special guest, forensic psychologist and author, doctor Chris Mohandi. 71 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:20.560 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 72 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:22.920 this interview, doctor Chris Mohandy. 73 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:27.319 Thank you, Dan, nice to meet you, Nice to meet you. 74 00:04:27.519 --> 00:04:32.079 Thank you very much for joining us today. Fantastic, grateful 75 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:37.040 as you do. Thank you. Let's get right into this. 76 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:41.000 This is just such a fascinating work, and you've evaluated 77 00:04:41.079 --> 00:04:45.879 and spoken with so many incredible criminals, killers, and you 78 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:49.600 have such a fascinating work here for us to listen 79 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:53.040 to about evil thoughts and wicked deeds. Take us back 80 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:55.399 to nineteen eighty eight, when you were twenty four years old, 81 00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:59.560 your second year internship. You were moonlighting after hours out 82 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:05.040 of private practice, and you tell us about meeting doctor 83 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:09.480 Martin Reiser, becoming involved in his orbit. Tell us how 84 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:12.399 that happened, how you became interested. Tell us a little 85 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:13.839 bit about that, as you do in the book. 86 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:17.319 Well, nineteen eighty eight. I didn't know where I was 87 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:19.519 going with my career per se. I mean, I thought 88 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:22.199 I was going to hang a shingle out and maybe 89 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:25.680 see clients on an ongoing basis and treat the worried well. 90 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:29.120 And in walks into this private practice where I was 91 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:35.360 moonlighting a guy who was contemplating a workplace mass casualty event. 92 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:37.839 And back then we didn't really know all that much 93 00:05:37.879 --> 00:05:40.839 about these things. They were just starting to happen. The 94 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:44.839 words going postal was just, you know, we're just being coined. 95 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:47.480 And you know, here I am. I don't have my PhD, 96 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:51.360 I don't have my you know, malpractice insurance, and didn't 97 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:53.680 really know quite what I was doing. And this gentleman 98 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:56.120 walks in and you know, wants to tell his story 99 00:05:56.199 --> 00:05:59.959 and maybe get some help. And he had felt mistreat 100 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:04.079 his workplace. He had blown the whistle on, you know, 101 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:06.879 on some you know, cost overrun issues in this defense 102 00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:10.680 contracting firm, and based upon the aftermath of that, felt 103 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:14.160 he'd been retaliated against. And his response was to file 104 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:19.519 a workers comp case, and in that adversarial process, felt 105 00:06:19.560 --> 00:06:22.519 that his reputation had been maligned and that he'd been destroyed, 106 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:24.959 and his solution was to create a list of people 107 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:29.319 he wanted to kill, purchasing you know, an uzi on 108 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:33.759 the black market for eighteen hundred dollars and basically come 109 00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:36.079 to the opinion that if the final hearing didn't go 110 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:38.199 his way, he was going to kill all the people 111 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:40.279 on his list. And here I am a wide eyed, 112 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:43.160 twenty four year old kid, and uh oh, you know 113 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:46.560 what do I do? Feeling overwhelmed? And that was nineteen 114 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:48.879 eighty eight, and that was my first taste of this stuff. 115 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:51.959 And thankfully that that all kind of worked out, but 116 00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:53.439 it was it was scary. 117 00:06:55.399 --> 00:06:58.199 Now, how did you come to learn of this Director 118 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:02.560 of Behavioral Science Services Section, doctor Martin Martin Reiser? And 119 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:05.519 then how did you become involved with him? You said, 120 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:07.000 the journey was about to begin. 121 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:10.800 There is the founder of police psychology, first in house 122 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:14.600 police psychologist and any department in the world. I think 123 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:17.519 it was nineteen sixty eight that was established at the LAPD. 124 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:20.920 And you know, in nineteen eighty eight, I was in 125 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:24.319 graduate school still and there was a small little advertisement 126 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:27.040 on the bulletin board at my grad school that said 127 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:31.360 halftime unpaid internships at the LAPD with doctor Martin Reiser, 128 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:35.839 and you know, I'd already done one year of an 129 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:40.879 internship at the Anaheim Police Department doing juvenile diversion counseling 130 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:42.720 a couple of years prior, and I thought, you know 131 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:44.920 that I've got a little bit of experience here, and 132 00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:47.600 I spent more time talking to the officers. It seems 133 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:51.120 this seems like it's right on point, and not realizing 134 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:54.480 the legend that I was reaching out to, I said, 135 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:56.040 I'm going to look into this. It might be a 136 00:07:56.160 --> 00:08:00.959 nice niche. So I contacted doctor Reiser, I think it 137 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:05.240 was January of nineteen eighty nine, went interviewed with him, 138 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:06.839 and he said, as soon as you graduate in May, 139 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:09.720 I'll take you on as an intern. And in that 140 00:08:09.879 --> 00:08:12.399 time period, somebody said, hey, do you know who that is. 141 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:18.240 That's the guy that founded police psychology. He developed investigative hypnosis, 142 00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:21.399 He developed the protocols for how you deal with officers 143 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:24.800 after shootings. He he's the guy that was the kind 144 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:29.120 of the first police psychologist to be attached to negotiation teams. 145 00:08:29.639 --> 00:08:32.720 LAPD may have been the third to get hostage negotiation 146 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:38.440 in the seventies, but part of their ground floor development 147 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:41.639 of their hostage teams was to have a psychologist attached 148 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:43.480 to the team and roll out on all these events. 149 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:47.399 And that's in you know, no small measure because of 150 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:51.840 doctor Riser's you know, groundbreaking work and establishing his credibility. 151 00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:55.759 So I got lucky, saw an ad and went in 152 00:08:56.200 --> 00:08:59.240 and was well and I was well received, and that 153 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:02.480 was the beginning of that was the real beginning of 154 00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:03.159 my education. 155 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:08.799 Certainly now you talk about, write about it in this book, 156 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:13.559 the practical world that you were in, the psychology operational 157 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:16.080 psychology that you were involved with, and you talk about 158 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:19.000 a Vietnamese man that was high on crack. Again, you 159 00:09:19.080 --> 00:09:24.000 talked about earlier about a successful basically intervention when you 160 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:26.200 ran to the supervisor and said, listen, what should we do? 161 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:28.519 And he ran back and you negotiated with him. You said, 162 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:31.000 wrote in the book that you would have done things 163 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:36.039 differently today now talking to that man, but. 164 00:09:36.279 --> 00:09:38.879 Don't bet and what you just said, it's very astute 165 00:09:38.919 --> 00:09:40.759 of you to call what we did in that room 166 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:43.799 with the guy that wanted to kill all his supervisors 167 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:47.159 and people at his at his workplace a negotiation, because 168 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:49.840 in retrospect, you're right, that's what that was. Before I'd 169 00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:52.360 even had any training in it. We were working this 170 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:56.279 guy basically helping him come to his conclusion that hey, 171 00:09:56.360 --> 00:09:59.519 this is not the best solution. There are other solutions 172 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:01.679 to this p problem and it doesn't involve hurting people. 173 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:05.639 That your method of problem solving here, sir, is one method, 174 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:08.120 and here's some others. But you're right, And then I 175 00:10:08.200 --> 00:10:11.919 end up finding my way to real negotiation training at 176 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:15.799 the LAPD. I went into it the first course that 177 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:18.360 they had when I got on board, I got to 178 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:21.720 sit in on that. It's a forty hour course. But yes, 179 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:25.960 I did have a prelude of that in the practice 180 00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:26.840 in nineteen eighty eight. 181 00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:33.679 Now, tell us about this Vietnamese man and this really 182 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:38.519 vivid scene that you write about with this man and 183 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:41.960 you're trying your best to avert him being killed. So 184 00:10:42.360 --> 00:10:45.559 tell us about this and the negotiations therein. 185 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:50.559 So, this was a gentleman of Vietnamese mail who had 186 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:53.799 been estranged from his family. The title of the chapter 187 00:10:53.879 --> 00:10:56.399 in the book is It's a good day to die, 188 00:10:57.080 --> 00:11:01.360 Because that morning he called his Psakaiah interest, who had 189 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:03.600 been seeing for a worker's complaim he had he had 190 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:07.279 thought he'd been mistreated at his workplace too interesting themes here, 191 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:11.639 and yet that psychiatrist had had come to the opinion that, 192 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:15.080 you know what, it's your drug problem, not how people 193 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:17.639 are treated you that's causing these issues in the workplace. 194 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:21.159 And so he had but he had called that psychiatrist 195 00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:24.360 that in the morning, having reached the end of his rope, 196 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:27.200 and said, you know what, doctor Griffin, today is a 197 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:31.320 good day to die. And and that is what prompted 198 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:35.200 the call to the location. And what had happened was 199 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:37.480 is that he had gone there to kill his family 200 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:43.039 and then himself. And fortunately his his family had escaped. 201 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:47.080 Yet his three year old daughter, Janet had not been 202 00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:49.279 so fortunate, and she ends up stuck with her dad, 203 00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:53.440 who is on a collision course with you know, fatal destiny, 204 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:57.200 and he's you know, he's basically, you know, wanting to 205 00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:00.919 kill her and kill himself. So it's a her suicide 206 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:04.720 in progress. He's armed with a handgun, he's been smoking 207 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:08.399 crack and he's coming down and he's he's done, you know, 208 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:12.279 he wants to he wants to end his life. Unfortunately, 209 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:14.480 that's where he was at and he wanted to take 210 00:12:14.519 --> 00:12:18.000 his daughter with him. Was horrible and a little bit 211 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:20.799 more to His story was is that he had fallen 212 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:22.320 out of favor with his family. There had been some 213 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:25.799 shame issues related to a death side vigil with his 214 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:28.080 brother in law. He had said some inappropriate things. The 215 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:31.480 family had basically ostracized him as they as they should 216 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:34.039 have given what he was saying and doing. He had 217 00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:38.559 driven several thousand miles to a famous treatment center, Hazelton 218 00:12:38.759 --> 00:12:42.720 in Minnesota, spent a couple of days there and checked 219 00:12:42.759 --> 00:12:46.679 himself out Ama because you know, it was too much 220 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:48.639 like the prison camp he'd been in when he was 221 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:52.919 in Vietnam, so being locked even for treatment wasn't an 222 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:55.919 option for him. So as we as you know, so 223 00:12:56.039 --> 00:12:59.639 he drives back, tells the family, hey, I couldn't do it, 224 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:02.120 he said. See, he didn't even finish that. He drives 225 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:04.720 back again to try to get himself back in the facility. 226 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:07.679 They say, nope, we're not taking you. And now he's 227 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:09.559 at the end of his rope. And that's when he 228 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:12.960 arrives back in Los Angeles, you know, basically held bent 229 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:16.519 on destruction. And so we find out from the good 230 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:19.720 doctor that had been treating him about this history, and 231 00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:23.399 of course that goes to the difficulty in negotiating with him, 232 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:26.279 because if we're going to try to help him, he 233 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:30.080 is not willing to check himself in anywhere, let alone 234 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:33.080 go to jail. So in his own mind, he had 235 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:36.720 created no way out other than death and destruction. So 236 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:42.720 it was it was one of the worst hostage incidents 237 00:13:42.759 --> 00:13:45.440 I've ever been at. You've got an innocent life and 238 00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:49.000 the balance a guy that you know wants to end 239 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:51.759 his own but not before taking his own flesh and blood. 240 00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:55.399 And it's just a matter of time. And here I am, 241 00:13:56.120 --> 00:13:59.159 you know, is nineteen ninety two or whatever. I'm you know, 242 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:02.279 twenty nine years years old, and you know, I'm given 243 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:04.480 input to this team and part of my job as 244 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:07.240 a consultant to the hostage negotiation teams of the SWAT 245 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:10.600 team at LAPD is is this negotiable? 246 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:11.240 You know? 247 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:15.360 You know, is is there any hope here? And we 248 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:18.639 can we work this guy? And I had to basically 249 00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:23.200 weigh in after having tried all kinds of talking strategies 250 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:29.120 with our really excellent negotiators who were Vietnamese language speakers. 251 00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:30.759 They hadn't been through the training yet, but they did 252 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:33.080 everything they were supposed to do, and it was just 253 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:37.039 not going to end with a verbal resolution, and so 254 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:41.799 that was I was thrust into life and death you 255 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:45.000 know kind of decision making, which is not what graduate 256 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:46.240 school prepares you for. Dan. 257 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:50.279 Yeah, yeah, this was a heartbreaking story. And this is 258 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:52.759 early in the book as well as because because he 259 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:56.480 really it really shows the police and yourself and the 260 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:01.200 negotiating team did everything they could to prevent this. Really 261 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.480 really was I mean, it's not an it's not to 262 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:07.360 be understated. Is that he had every opportunity, especially with 263 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:10.679 these Vietnamese officers that did a stellar job of connecting. 264 00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:13.200 You told them to call them, you know, a brother, 265 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:16.279 and so they looked like it looked like there was 266 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:18.279 very there was some hope here. It looked like there 267 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:21.200 was a lot of hope actually based on the techniques 268 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:24.639 that you guys employed. But in the end heartbreaking. No, 269 00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:26.840 he year old with no far. 270 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:29.399 Hel fit into a corner and just he was having 271 00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:31.879 none of it. And then you have the chemical influence Dan, 272 00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:36.799 of you know, being high on on on crack cocaine, 273 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:40.679 which you know in stimulants are very much associated with 274 00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:44.519 high risk and for violence potential. But then when you're crashing, 275 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:49.480 you know, the despair that one may already feel is 276 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:53.840 amplified by you know, the neurochemical and balance that has 277 00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:56.080 been created by the up, you know, because what goes 278 00:15:56.159 --> 00:15:59.120 up must come down, and that's what was happening. So 279 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:01.720 that's what we were up against, and you know, it 280 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:06.600 was it was. It was, you know, kind of my 281 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:12.279 first foray into just how bad things can get and 282 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:15.399 how quickly they could go bad, and then just how 283 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:20.759 important it is what law enforcement does and the efforts 284 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:24.759 and negotiation to buy time. Even if you can't negotiate, 285 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:28.399 you know, solutions will present themselves the more time you 286 00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:30.919 can buy, and we're able to do that and you know, 287 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:34.960 wear him down and ultimately, uh, you know, there is 288 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:36.799 it's not going to be a great outcome for him. 289 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:39.519 I don't want to spoil anything unless you want to 290 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:43.679 ask about it. But it was. It was intense. 291 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:51.559 Absolutely you learned from all of these situations, ones that 292 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:54.519 turn deadly and ones that don't, and ones that you've 293 00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:58.919 prevented things from happening. You talk about a serial killer, 294 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:02.320 unlikely in terms of where you might find this person, 295 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:03.879 and that's at a hospital. 296 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:04.599 Right. 297 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:08.599 Let's talk Let's talk about ephrin Celdovar. 298 00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:12.559 Oh Efren Saldivar, the so called Angel of Death that 299 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:16.640 was preying on patients at the Glendale Adventist Hospital here 300 00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:19.839 in Glendale for many years. You know, he's kind of 301 00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:25.640 a low key, affable, you know, seemingly affable guy. He 302 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:29.880 would he would not send off your Spidey senses. Is 303 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:33.079 a guy that is a threat or a menace. You know. 304 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:35.440 At one point he had been a checker at the 305 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:39.000 local supermarket and uh, you know, he saw a guy 306 00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:41.680 come through the line with a stethoscope on and the scrubs, 307 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:43.039 and he says, how do I get one of those? 308 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:45.960 And the guy says, well, I'm a respiratory therapist. And 309 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:49.160 how much education does that take? And he guy says, well, 310 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:51.079 here's what it takes. He goes, geez, I could do that, 311 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:54.200 you know, I could have the seeming power of of 312 00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:57.440 the outfit and you know the things that I get 313 00:17:57.480 --> 00:17:59.680 to do but without having to, you know, go to 314 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:02.400 medical school. So he was attracted to the power of 315 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:05.440 the job, but not the kind of guy that would 316 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:08.000 that would seem like a wolf. He was a wolf 317 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:12.480 in sheep's clothing, and unbeknownst to those around him, his 318 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:16.200 yearning and his hunger for power over life and death 319 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:21.000 and the playing god aspect of that had been had 320 00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:26.119 been sown years before through his upbringing and through his 321 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:29.640 reading of a book called Upon a Pale Horse's kind 322 00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:32.400 of a comic book style, you know, kind of in 323 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:37.480 the dark sense, where a guy ends up startling the 324 00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:41.160 grim reaper or Death as he's sending souls either to 325 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:44.519 heaven or hell. Death ends up dying and the guy 326 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:47.759 in the book has to assume Death's role. I think 327 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:50.519 Saldivar was in his teens when he read this book, 328 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:54.440 and he had an epiphany and identification with that character 329 00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:57.519 that kind of laid dormant years later. When I would 330 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:01.960 interview him after he was ultimately victed of the of 331 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:04.880 some of the homicides that he perpetrated in the hospitals, 332 00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:09.279 he he remembered that that experience of having read the 333 00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:11.680 book and and and the impact it had upon him, 334 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:13.759 and then he tried to downplay it, but it was 335 00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:17.440 clear that that it had filled a void for him, 336 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:22.519 an inner sense of purpose and meaning, and that for 337 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:25.119 a guy like him who had never felt powerful or 338 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:29.720 any sense of potency, kind of an inadequate guy, it 339 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:33.720 it elevated him and the secrecy aspect of what he 340 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:36.799 was doing is he self, you know, approached people in 341 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:42.640 the hospital that supposedly met his code. It it fulfilled him, 342 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:45.079 and it lifted him out of depression. It lifted him 343 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:49.039 out of despair, and it served a purpose for him. 344 00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:54.559 You write that he his hero. He told you in 345 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:58.480 an interview that his Kavorkian doctor Orkin was a hero 346 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:02.279 to him, and he and you and you he actually 347 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:08.920 gave you some enlightenment to his situation by saying, what 348 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:13.839 really triggered this sort of well obsession and interest watching 349 00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:17.240 a man suffocate? Tell us what you've gleaned from him, 350 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:19.640 what he told you about this incident and how it 351 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:23.359 influenced them, and then you can talk about the drug 352 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.279 that you talk about full cognitive awareness. 353 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:32.200 Oh yeah, yeah, So the there was a there was 354 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:38.319 a life changing experience he describes where he perceived that 355 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:42.000 there was a person that was dying and that was 356 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:46.000 supposedly dead or dying in the hospital and you know, 357 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:50.920 life life ending measures had been terminated and supposedly it 358 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:55.559 was you know, it was this person was supposedly just 359 00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:59.400 going to succumb to you know, his natural death didn't happen, 360 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:03.680 and his accounting of it is that a nurse or 361 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:06.680 somebody there tournament, we got to do something. This isn't 362 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:11.640 this isn't good. And at that point, you know, he said, well, 363 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:14.000 I guess this is what I'm supposed to do. And 364 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:16.759 then you know, his version of the story is that 365 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:20.680 he finished, you know, what was supposed to happen naturally, 366 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:24.440 that is end of this. This guy's life that was 367 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:27.799 life saving measures were supposed to end. He was supposed 368 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:31.640 to die naturally. Now I keep saying his version because 369 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:35.440 there is a tendency among these these types of individuals 370 00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:42.720 to attribute more approval from those around them than than 371 00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:46.839 you know, is likely really being given. But in his 372 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:49.559 own mind, uh, he concluded this is I guess this 373 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:51.960 is what I'm supposed to do. And that was like 374 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:56.519 kind of the intersection between the fantasy of being in 375 00:21:56.599 --> 00:21:59.839 the role of death, the grim reaper, and the reality. 376 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.079 And it's kind of like, you know, I often use 377 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:06.240 the the the I guess analogy of you know, once 378 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:09.519 the gen analogy or metaphor that once the genie is 379 00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:11.799 let out of the bottle, you can't put him back 380 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:14.440 in again, and the genie being the I've done it 381 00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:18.319 and it's in the world of possibility and probability. And 382 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:20.880 once he kind of done it, meaning taking human life 383 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:26.160 in this fashion for these purposes, it becomes something that 384 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:28.799 they just can't stop doing. Now they may have cooling 385 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:31.880 off periods, you know that serve the purpose of not 386 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:35.319 getting caught. But you know it's like once they've had 387 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:37.559 a drink, they can't they can't put the bottle down. 388 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:41.200 And and so his task was, you know, as he 389 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:42.839 saw it, was to find out, well, how do I 390 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:44.839 do this and and what does he have access to 391 00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:48.640 As a respiratory therapist. He has access to these agents 392 00:22:48.759 --> 00:22:53.839 suck sycoline and pavlon, which are Cherai like substances that 393 00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:59.559 are designed to allow him to intubate patients. And thus 394 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:03.240 it needs to induce paralysis so that they're not choking 395 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:06.880 and gagging. But what it does is it stops the breathing, 396 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:09.279 so the breathing tube can be put in, an artificial 397 00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:14.920 respiration can occur, and yet the person is completely conscious. 398 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:18.079 So the person is aware that they can't breathe and 399 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:20.559 they're suffocating until the tube goes in and it's done. 400 00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:23.839 But if a person is administering this as a method 401 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:30.759