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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm Don Isles. I worked on the software for

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<v Speaker 1>the Luna module when it landed on the Moon. You're

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<v Speaker 1>listening to the Doctor Sky Experience.

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<v Speaker 2>And welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to the Doctor Sky Experience,

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<v Speaker 2>heard exclusively here on Talk Radio seventy seven WABC in

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<v Speaker 2>New York. Our producer for the Doctor Sky Experience is

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<v Speaker 2>doctor d Richard Dugan. The Doctor Sky Experience talks with

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<v Speaker 2>great guests from the realms of astronomy, space, aviation, weather

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<v Speaker 2>and celebrity guests in the mix. And how about common

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<v Speaker 2>sense interviews about our American heritage and a great guest,

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<v Speaker 2>Ladies and gentlemen, if you're big fan of the Apollo

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<v Speaker 2>missions of the nineteen sixties and seventies, and who wasn't.

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<v Speaker 2>As we just celebrated the fifty third anniversary of the

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<v Speaker 2>Apollo eleven landing on the Moon, that part in history

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<v Speaker 2>is what we're going to be talking about today with

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<v Speaker 2>an author and a person who knows so much about

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<v Speaker 2>how to land an Apollo lunar module and the surface

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<v Speaker 2>of the Moon. His name is Don Isles. His book

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<v Speaker 2>Sunburst and Luminary and Apollo Memoir, A little bit of

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<v Speaker 2>a brief outline about our guest and the book. It

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<v Speaker 2>opens the curtain on a complex story never before told

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<v Speaker 2>from the inside. The creation the onboard software for the

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<v Speaker 2>Apollo spacecraft. Every word is written by the author himself

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<v Speaker 2>and his own fluent and unfiltered voice. Pressure to college,

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<v Speaker 2>he's assigned to program the lunar descent, the complex maneuver.

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<v Speaker 2>At the apex of the mission, his code is running

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<v Speaker 2>and the lunar module's computer as Neil Armstrong and Buzz

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<v Speaker 2>Aldrin descend the lunar surface. On Apollo eleven, he works

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<v Speaker 2>directly with astronauts to perfect techniques for landing more accurately.

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<v Speaker 2>He explores Houston and at Cape Canaveral, he flies lunar

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<v Speaker 2>landings in NASA's best limbs simulator. On Apollo fourteen, he

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<v Speaker 2>experiences a taste of fame when he finds a timely

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<v Speaker 2>answer for a problem that could spoil Alan Shepherd's mission.

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<v Speaker 2>With that, we'd like to welcome Don Isles to the

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<v Speaker 2>Doctor Sky Experience. Sir, how are you.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm very well, thank you very much. Happy to be

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<v Speaker 1>with you today.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, happy to be with you, sir. I'm so fascinated.

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<v Speaker 2>As a young boy I was thirteen years young when

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<v Speaker 2>they Apollo eleven landed on the Moon. And little did

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<v Speaker 2>I know that one day I'd be talking to a

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<v Speaker 2>man who he and his team were so much responsible

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<v Speaker 2>for that safe landing on the surface of the Moon.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's start off with your background and your bio. Let's

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<v Speaker 2>talk a little bit about how you got started in

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<v Speaker 2>this whole area, which I'm going to say respectfully as coders.

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<v Speaker 2>I hope that's a good way to describe your profession

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<v Speaker 2>at that time. How'd you get started?

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<v Speaker 1>Don We didn't call it coders at the time. We

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<v Speaker 1>called ourselves software engineers or something computer scientists. I got

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<v Speaker 1>started because while searching for a job after graduation, I

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<v Speaker 1>had the good luck to fan my way into a

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<v Speaker 1>sort of a back road behind the railroad track behind

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<v Speaker 1>MIT where the MIT Instrumentation Lab had its head quarters.

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<v Speaker 1>And I walked in and asked for a job, and

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<v Speaker 1>they gave it to me.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, kind of by luck. That's interesting. In the world

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<v Speaker 2>of nineteen sixty six was kind of a much different

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<v Speaker 2>world than it is today. But coming straight out of

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<v Speaker 2>Boston University, this must have been an exciting time and

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<v Speaker 2>great thanks, I guess goes to who John McCarthy and

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<v Speaker 2>then George Cherry and so many others that help you

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<v Speaker 2>get that job. And it's amazing because you were saying

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<v Speaker 2>in your book that there was kind of not a

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<v Speaker 2>good spate of success in the job interviews that you

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<v Speaker 2>were getting, so you kind of just walked in here

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<v Speaker 2>and lo and behold. The rest is what the history

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<v Speaker 2>of what we're going to talk about in this interview.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, the key is whether the place you walk into

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<v Speaker 1>is hiring. And at that time they felt the need

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<v Speaker 1>to staff up quickly because a new phase was the beginning.

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<v Speaker 1>The software for the lunar module had to be written.

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<v Speaker 2>That's amazing. And describing your salary there, I've loved did

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit of research on you, as every host

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<v Speaker 2>should do. You were paid approximately six hundred and forty

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<v Speaker 2>dollars a month in those days. Was that considered to

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<v Speaker 2>be in those days a little bit of money or

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<v Speaker 2>was that considered to be fairly decent for the time.

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<v Speaker 1>It was certainly not a princely strategy, but by the

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<v Speaker 1>ground rule that you should be able to afford your

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<v Speaker 1>housing your rental on one quarter of your gross salary,

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<v Speaker 1>it worked well.

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<v Speaker 2>And you also have a great interest see what I

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<v Speaker 2>love about your book, and ladies and gentlemen, in this

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<v Speaker 2>particular book, it's not a man who's just talking about

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<v Speaker 2>code and all technical scientific things. There's some of that

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<v Speaker 2>in the book, which is necessary to explain great achievements

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<v Speaker 2>that he and his team did. But what I liked

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<v Speaker 2>on about your book is you have a human side

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<v Speaker 2>to this book. You describe personal feelings in the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Describe to us for those that weren't around in the

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixties when you were a young man, describe that

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<v Speaker 2>whole experience then. I mean, things were a lot different

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<v Speaker 2>than they are today. I'd like you to explain to

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<v Speaker 2>the listeners of this audience, just give us the feel

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<v Speaker 2>of the sixties.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it was it was the counterculture.

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<v Speaker 2>You know.

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<v Speaker 1>The music had changed with rock and roll, sexual morays

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<v Speaker 1>had changed, in part due to the birth control pill.

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<v Speaker 1>There were it was a renewed interest in what we

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<v Speaker 1>now call recreational drugs, in particular pop or grass or marijuana,

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<v Speaker 1>if you will. And it was also, of course the

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<v Speaker 1>Vietnam War and consciousness that came out of that that

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<v Speaker 1>activated people in a hold you way, and all those

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<v Speaker 1>things were going on at once at the time when

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<v Speaker 1>I was entering my twenties and living in the middle

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<v Speaker 1>of the middle of it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, a different time. Indeed, as we talk about and

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<v Speaker 2>listen to so many great guests that we have on

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<v Speaker 2>this particular arc ive known as the Doctor Sky Experience.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you're just joining us, ladies and gentlemen, so

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<v Speaker 2>much more to come here on the Doctor Sky Experience again.

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<v Speaker 2>This particular podcast here heard exclusively on talk radio seventy

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<v Speaker 2>seven WABC in New York, and our producer proudly is

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<v Speaker 2>doctor d Richard Dugan John. Describe this because I'm looking

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<v Speaker 2>at the book here, and you've written this book, as

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<v Speaker 2>I said, not just from a humanistic side, but also

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<v Speaker 2>from a technical side, which makes it really good. And

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<v Speaker 2>you have the book, as you know well, over three

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<v Speaker 2>hundred pages. Part one is about learning, Part two, as

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<v Speaker 2>you know so well, is flying, and part three is exploring.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to learn what was it like to be

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<v Speaker 2>in that particular position there as you're working in this

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<v Speaker 2>particular laboratory. Weren't they first starting to work on navigation

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<v Speaker 2>systems like gyroscopes and accelerometers for what conventional military aircraft?

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<v Speaker 2>Was that how they really got their start?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, yes, to some extent that's true. The start of

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<v Speaker 1>inertial guidance system goes back. Systems goes back to the

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<v Speaker 1>early fifties, and it happened in Boston, i should say,

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<v Speaker 1>in Cambridge at Doc Draper's laboratory, which was the MT

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<v Speaker 1>Instrumentation Laboratory, and they first used gyros and accelerometers for

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<v Speaker 1>instrumentation in this sense of strapping them to engines to

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<v Speaker 1>learn things about now to improve the performance of engines.

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<v Speaker 1>During the Second War War, they used some of this

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<v Speaker 1>technology gyros in particular to create a gun sight for

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<v Speaker 1>the Navy that made a tremendous difference the ability of

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<v Speaker 1>surface ships to defend themselves from air attack. And then

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<v Speaker 1>finally after the war they began to apply the principles

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<v Speaker 1>much more generally. And a famous event from the instrument

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<v Speaker 1>teby Instrumentation liaboratories history was in nineteen fifty three when

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<v Speaker 1>the first self contained system was installed in an airplane.

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<v Speaker 1>It turned out that MIT owned a bomber at that time,

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<v Speaker 1>no bombs, I'm pretty sure, but this B twenty nine

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<v Speaker 1>was equipped with the guidance system and flown from Hanscom

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<v Speaker 1>Field near Boston to la and the purpose of the

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<v Speaker 1>flight was first of all to test this system and

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<v Speaker 1>also to take Doc and his team to a conference

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<v Speaker 1>in La where navigation systems were going to be discussed.

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<v Speaker 1>And to make cut the story short, they arrived in

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<v Speaker 1>LA with an error of only ten miles, which was

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<v Speaker 1>a triumph. And at the meeting, DoD Draper, after listening

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<v Speaker 1>to many reasons from other speakers why it could not

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<v Speaker 1>be done yet, came to the front of the room

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<v Speaker 1>and announced that he had just done it. But from

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<v Speaker 1>that system it was a straight line to the Apollo system.

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<v Speaker 1>And as you say, some of the stops along the

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<v Speaker 1>way were military. Many of the components of the Apollo

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<v Speaker 1>inertial sensor, not the computer, but the inertial sensor are

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<v Speaker 1>in common with the early sea launch ballistic missiles.

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<v Speaker 2>Very interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>But it all came to a head an Apollo where

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<v Speaker 1>the human interface had to be added, where the computer

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<v Speaker 1>was added, and it became a much more flexible and

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<v Speaker 1>complete system.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, folks can get a good view and actual pictures

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<v Speaker 2>in this particular book with our special guest Doniles. The

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<v Speaker 2>book entitled Sunburst, Loom and Apollo Memoir. And here I'm

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<v Speaker 2>looking here at page one ninety one, as hopefully listeners

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<v Speaker 2>out there will get a good copy of this book

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<v Speaker 2>wherever copies of this book are sold, which is just

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<v Speaker 2>about everywhere, including Amazon. You see Doc Draper and the

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<v Speaker 2>navigation simulator on the roof of the building you know

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<v Speaker 2>so well, AISL seven at seventy five Cambridge Parkway. It

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<v Speaker 2>looks real happy in there, and I guess that must

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<v Speaker 2>have been a safe spot, in a really proud position,

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<v Speaker 2>and a proud moment, sitting on top of that building

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<v Speaker 2>developing these very complex systems that were yet to go

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<v Speaker 2>to another level to the moon.

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<v Speaker 1>Correct, Yes, that's very true. The purpose of that simulator

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<v Speaker 1>was to see whether the optics and the interface, the

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<v Speaker 1>human interface was capable of, shall we say, aligning the

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<v Speaker 1>inertial censor. By the time I came along, it was

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<v Speaker 1>not in heavy use because it had served its purpose.

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<v Speaker 1>But you could go up there and look at it,

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<v Speaker 1>or even sit in it if you liked.

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<v Speaker 2>John. I'm fascinated about this, and I've always had a

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<v Speaker 2>gap in my knowledge of the Apollo program, and what

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<v Speaker 2>I'm about to ask you is probably some things that

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<v Speaker 2>many people out there, of course, would like to know.

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<v Speaker 2>We always think of Apollo like Apollo seven, and I

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<v Speaker 2>know you've had the honor, I'm sure of talking to

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<v Speaker 2>Wally Sharrah. We've had him when he was with us

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<v Speaker 2>here on the Earth a few times on our radio

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<v Speaker 2>shows in the past. But talk to us a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit about the early apollos, because what we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>hear in this interview, ladies and gentlemen, is a man

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<v Speaker 2>who helped to vevel so much of the software for

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<v Speaker 2>the descent stage, the power at the scent stage, which

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<v Speaker 2>is about a twelve minute experience. We'll hear this later

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<v Speaker 2>in the interview. But what were some of those early

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<v Speaker 2>apollos that maybe a lot of people don't know about.

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<v Speaker 2>Where the lunar module was, what simply tested in Earth orbit?

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<v Speaker 2>Am I correct?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Yes, the early flight mostly concerned the command module,

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<v Speaker 1>and I was a lunar module specialist, so I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>have a whole lot to do with them and mostly

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<v Speaker 1>did not meet those astronauts. But the exception of that

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<v Speaker 1>was the flight that called LIMB one at the time

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<v Speaker 1>because it was the very first lunar module off the

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<v Speaker 1>out of the clean room at Beth Stage where Grummand

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<v Speaker 1>built it, and it was an unmanned test whose main

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<v Speaker 1>purpose from NASA's point of view was to verify the

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<v Speaker 1>propulsion systems, by which I mean the ascent stage that

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<v Speaker 1>would get the spacecraft off the moon after they had landed,

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<v Speaker 1>and the decent stage that would take them down to

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<v Speaker 1>the Moon. And they accomplished those objectives. But because of

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<v Speaker 1>the case, where shall we say, our software was misinformed?

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<v Speaker 1>What we missed on that flight was a rehearsal of

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<v Speaker 1>the computer control of the spacecraft.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, this is amazing off today, ladies and gentlemen just

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<v Speaker 2>hearing this, but please continue, don I'm sorry to cut

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<v Speaker 2>you short.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, no problem at all. It meant that for Alan

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<v Speaker 1>Clemp and I only was really my mentor and my

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<v Speaker 1>partner in creating the lunar landing programs. Our first rehearsal

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<v Speaker 1>was thus rained, and our next time to see our

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<v Speaker 1>software running was Apollo eleven itself. Maybe I should say

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<v Speaker 1>another word about the limb one problem. Yes, please, We

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<v Speaker 1>had software that was required to test whether thrust had

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<v Speaker 1>appeared after the engine was activated the decent engine, and

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<v Speaker 1>if trust was not measured within a certain length of time,

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<v Speaker 1>to shut the engine down. Unfortunately, we had not been

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<v Speaker 1>told that a decision had been made. I think just

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<v Speaker 1>before launch to delay the arming of the engine. As

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<v Speaker 1>a result of had not come up to thrust in

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<v Speaker 1>our software since the engine off signal, and it was

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<v Speaker 1>impossible to recycle the software at that point, so NASA

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<v Speaker 1>took control and did the engine firings under control from Houston.

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<v Speaker 2>It's amazing because when you look at the beautiful spidery

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<v Speaker 2>craft that you know better than anybody that I've talked

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<v Speaker 2>to about in Grumman of course aerospace manufacturing this out

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<v Speaker 2>investige Long Island. I imagine this must have been an

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<v Speaker 2>honor of a lifetime to be able to not only

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<v Speaker 2>be part of writing the software, but can you describe

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<v Speaker 2>the visual of that. I mean, we've seen these particular modules,

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<v Speaker 2>the lunar module, the command module in museums, but what

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<v Speaker 2>was it like to be a young man? I mean

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<v Speaker 2>more from the humanistic side. You walk into places like

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<v Speaker 2>Grumman and you see this craft there, I mean, it

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<v Speaker 2>looks otherworldly. To describe your experience, it must have been onspiring.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, ironically, I've had better looks at real lunar modules

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<v Speaker 1>well after Apollo eleven that I ever did beforehand. Interesting,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the one that's in the air and space

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<v Speaker 1>Museum at Washington is really if you're at Washington, you

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<v Speaker 1>should certainly go and see that because it was a

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<v Speaker 1>real lunar module and it was lovingly restored and it's

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<v Speaker 1>quite quite a sight. My experience of lunar modules while

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<v Speaker 1>it was working on the job was from the inside,

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<v Speaker 1>from the cockpit out. There was a mock up sharing

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<v Speaker 1>the space with the cockpits in Florida that was used

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<v Speaker 1>for rehearsing the walking down the ladder, exiting the limit,

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<v Speaker 1>going down the ladder on the lunar surface, but that

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<v Speaker 1>was a fairly crude replica except for those features. But

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<v Speaker 1>the cockpits that were available in the simulators were the

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<v Speaker 1>opposite of that. They were realistic to the last detail

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<v Speaker 1>and quite an experience to get to a play astronaut

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<v Speaker 1>in or sometimes a company an astronaut in during lunar

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<v Speaker 1>landing simulations.

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<v Speaker 2>You're listening, ladies and gentlemen, to the Doctor Sky experience

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<v Speaker 2>proudly here on talk radio seventy seven WABC in New

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<v Speaker 2>York our producer extraordinair, Richard Dugan, Doctor D. We're today

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<v Speaker 2>talking with Don Isles. Yes, there's so much to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about in this interview today and in our special podcast

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<v Speaker 2>the Doctor Sky experienced the book entitled Sunburst and Luminary,

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<v Speaker 2>an Apollo Memoir. As we continue here in this rather

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<v Speaker 2>exclusive interview with a gentleman that I think really has

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<v Speaker 2>so much knowledge and we're so proud to have him

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<v Speaker 2>and call him a friend of the show. As you know, sir,

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<v Speaker 2>this is interesting. So the title of the book Sunburst

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<v Speaker 2>and Luminary, if I have it right, Sunburst was the

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<v Speaker 2>program for the Earth orbit testing a lot of the

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<v Speaker 2>lunar module, while Luminary was the lunar landing portion of that.

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<v Speaker 2>Elaborate a little bit more about that because I know

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<v Speaker 2>for people that are not as technical, you go through

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<v Speaker 2>some incredible detail in this book, which is important. But

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<v Speaker 2>please describe the difference between the two and how they

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<v Speaker 2>were developed.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, we knew these programs best as a big book

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<v Speaker 1>of paper. The Sunburst was the name of the program

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<v Speaker 1>that flew the mission I was talking about just a

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<v Speaker 1>few minutes ago, the Limb one mission and Earth Orbit.

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<v Speaker 1>Luminary was the program that flew all the lunar landing missions,

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<v Speaker 1>and also Apollow ten, which was the process rehearsal for

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<v Speaker 1>the lunar landing. There was also by the way, a

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<v Speaker 1>sun Dance in between there to Apollo nine, which was

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<v Speaker 1>a mission in Earth for me. With both the command

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<v Speaker 1>module and the lunar module, I suppose I could call

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<v Speaker 1>the book Sunburst, Sundance, and Luminary, but I chose to

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<v Speaker 1>leave out sun Dance because didn't really concern the lunar

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<v Speaker 1>landing very much. What these books showed us, because remember

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<v Speaker 1>we're at a time when there were no terminals of

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<v Speaker 1>any kind to read code own. What these books contained

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<v Speaker 1>was the program did fit inside a computer that was

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<v Speaker 1>really very modest by today's standards. It had in all

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<v Speaker 1>thirty eight a words. Each word was the size of

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<v Speaker 1>two bytes, so you could say it had memory totaling

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<v Speaker 1>seventy six kilobytes, of which only four kilobytes was what

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<v Speaker 1>we called a racimal memory, meaning read write memory. The

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<v Speaker 1>other seventy two kilobytes contained the program, and since it

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<v Speaker 1>was divided into two byte words, there was the vasti

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<v Speaker 1>for something thirty six thousand instructions, and that was all

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<v Speaker 1>written down in this one lump of paper, which is

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<v Speaker 1>what we stared at when we wanted to think about

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<v Speaker 1>the code. It was organized operationally into a number of

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<v Speaker 1>programs key programs because they were designated things like P

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<v Speaker 1>forty or P sixty three, which happened to be the

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<v Speaker 1>beginning of the liutar landing was P sixty three, And

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<v Speaker 1>there were also routines that wore our names. And this

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<v Speaker 1>was all laid out in somewhat vague form in a

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<v Speaker 1>requirements document called the A Guidance System Operations Plan. But

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<v Speaker 1>we very soon realized that the real time nature of

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<v Speaker 1>what we're doing was the hard part, and that was

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<v Speaker 1>not really very well covered in the the GEESOP as

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<v Speaker 1>we called it. So that's what we were doing. We

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<v Speaker 1>were figuring out how to write the navigation, the other

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<v Speaker 1>and the human interface and the things that went with

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<v Speaker 1>that inside rather small number of possible instructions, say thirty thousand,

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<v Speaker 1>and to do it in a way that maximize the

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<v Speaker 1>capability of this little machine.

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<v Speaker 2>Incredible, John, I got to ask you this more from

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<v Speaker 2>a humanistic side. You know, Apollo eight, we all remember

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<v Speaker 2>I was just a young boy. We watched around Christmas

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<v Speaker 2>even sixty eight, and I've spoken to Jim Lovell on

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<v Speaker 2>this one and I got his interpretation of what they did.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course it was great, But were you kind of

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<v Speaker 2>surprised that NASA had moved that quickly forward to do

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<v Speaker 2>that man mission around the Moon. I mean it seemed

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<v Speaker 2>like in my opinion, and I'm not a space scientist

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<v Speaker 2>like yourself, but wasn't that a little quick? I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>they made a decision to go and a manned effort.

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<v Speaker 2>And look at Artemis today, we're trying to get artemists

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<v Speaker 2>to go around the moon, not with people in it.

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<v Speaker 2>Was that a little surprise to you that they did

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<v Speaker 2>it in a relatively quick way?

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<v Speaker 1>Well? I was I crossed, shall we say. It showed

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<v Speaker 1>me working down in the trenches. It showed me that

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<v Speaker 1>they were serious about doing this. Yes, you know it

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<v Speaker 1>came across as a bold decision, but I think it

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<v Speaker 1>was very definitely the right decision. It was one of

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<v Speaker 1>those variant decisions that I think were probably necessary for

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<v Speaker 1>us to meet the goal that Werestin Kennedy.

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<v Speaker 2>Had said, absolutely, you know this is amazing. Let's go

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<v Speaker 2>back to November sixth, nineteen sixty seven. You described that

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<v Speaker 2>as a very interesting day. There you are, I guess,

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<v Speaker 2>with your other colleagues conducting a special meeting with the astronauts.

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<v Speaker 2>That would be the first and second and possibly third

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<v Speaker 2>and may even fourth to the landing of the moon.

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<v Speaker 2>But you describe in there the humor of Pete Conrad.

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<v Speaker 2>I always followed him. I never had the privilege and

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<v Speaker 2>honor of speaking with him, as we know, sadly he

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<v Speaker 2>perished in a motorcycle accident, as very much as sad

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<v Speaker 2>as that is back here on earth when he did

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<v Speaker 2>all these things in space. But describe that meeting, because

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<v Speaker 2>now we're talking one in that room with not only

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<v Speaker 2>national heroes that go to the moon, yourselves and the

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<v Speaker 2>people developing the luminary portion for the lunar landing and descent.

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<v Speaker 2>That must have been quite an experience. Talk a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit about that in Pete Conrad.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it was my first exposure to astronauts, and it

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<v Speaker 1>quickly erased any idea that astronauts were the least bit

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<v Speaker 1>that's the right word, the least bit cut from the

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<v Speaker 1>same cult, shall we say, because they showed a variety

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<v Speaker 1>of types. I wasn't invited to the meeting in its entirety,

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<v Speaker 1>but at the point where the meeting reached the area

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<v Speaker 1>of the literal landing programs, Alan Klump, who I mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>a few minutes ago, he let me know that I

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<v Speaker 1>should come in, so I did, And at first I

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<v Speaker 1>assumed that the sort of molding a guy with a

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<v Speaker 1>gap between his teeth and a nice glint plaid sued

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<v Speaker 1>who was mostly on his seat, was some sort of

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<v Speaker 1>particularly buoyant Nassa manager. But it was actually the astronaut

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<v Speaker 1>Pete Conrad, who was very expressive. You know, It's a

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<v Speaker 1>little hard to describe because it was a blend of

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<v Speaker 1>you know, extreme intelligence with a little bit of an

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<v Speaker 1>all shucks sort of the manner. Yes, ironically, of the

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<v Speaker 1>Apollo astronauts, he was the only Ivy leaguer. He was

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<v Speaker 1>from he got his degree at Princeton. Didn't know that, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>I you know, I in the book, I resisted the

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<v Speaker 1>temptation to characterize astronauts according to what film star they

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<v Speaker 1>remanded me. But for me, Pete Conrad was sort of

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<v Speaker 1>the mix of Richard Widmark and Slim Pickens, uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the cold calculating versus the you know, the fun loving.

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<v Speaker 1>But also at the meeting where Jim Lovell, who I

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<v Speaker 1>don't remember so well from the meeting, and Neil Armstrong,

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<v Speaker 1>who I do remember. One of the things he was

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<v Speaker 1>interested in, which was the one of the meters that

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<v Speaker 1>that our software used to give into information to the astronauts,

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<v Speaker 1>and the cockpit was oriented in a fashion that made

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<v Speaker 1>interpreting its meaning not totally straightforward. So he discussed that

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit, which was an eye opener for me

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<v Speaker 1>as to astronaut thinking the way astronauts stall.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, well, folks, you're here with me, Doctor Sky here

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<v Speaker 2>on talk radio seventy seven WABC in New York. The

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<v Speaker 2>Doctor Sky experience continues, and what a great guest, folks.

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<v Speaker 2>Don Isles his book Sunburst, Luminary and Apollo Memoir. When

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<v Speaker 2>you watch, if you're old enough like myself, I'm sixty

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<v Speaker 2>six years young. I remember seeing this lunar landing. I

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<v Speaker 2>had to ask permission done for my parents to stay

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<v Speaker 2>up late that night on the East Coast time zone there.

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<v Speaker 2>But wow, what an experience as we all saw. The

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<v Speaker 2>handiwork that you and your team help is kind of

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<v Speaker 2>the silent heroes of this particular mission, as I would

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<v Speaker 2>like to describe it, but I want to go and

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<v Speaker 2>I always do. A tribute to the astronauts of Apollo

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<v Speaker 2>one with a sad event that happened. January twenty seventh

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<v Speaker 2>is nineteen sixty seven. But I learned something in your

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<v Speaker 2>book by describing, and there is no reflection on you

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<v Speaker 2>on the software side of this. But poor Gus Grissom,

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<v Speaker 2>God blessom. You describe him sitting in a bar by

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<v Speaker 2>himself in Cocoa Beach, and he was kind of frustrated,

422
00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:16.880
<v Speaker 2>as I'm sure I would be in any other astronaut

423
00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:19.839
<v Speaker 2>at the time, with the spacecraft, all the problems they

424
00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:21.799
<v Speaker 2>had with the Apollo one capsule. What do you say,

425
00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:25.200
<v Speaker 2>and I quote, what we have here is a heath kit,

426
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:28.440
<v Speaker 2>and that's an amazing end to quote describe him. Had

427
00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:30.480
<v Speaker 2>you ever met Gus Grissom yourself, sir.

428
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:36.839
<v Speaker 1>I'm afraid not. I never did have occasion to meet him.

429
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:42.240
<v Speaker 1>I began to meet astronauts in the run up to

430
00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:46.640
<v Speaker 1>Apollo eleven, other than the meeting in nineteen sixty seven

431
00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:47.599
<v Speaker 1>that I described.

432
00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:50.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, let's talt in there. Let's continue here and the

433
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:52.519
<v Speaker 2>rest of the time that we have here. And I

434
00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:54.880
<v Speaker 2>appreciate your time, sir. This is just awesome. I could

435
00:26:54.920 --> 00:26:58.400
<v Speaker 2>go on for hours here. The Apollo eleven mission, of course,

436
00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:00.920
<v Speaker 2>Apollo ten came within fifty two thousand feet of the

437
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:03.720
<v Speaker 2>lunar surface. And you know, if I was on board there,

438
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:06.039
<v Speaker 2>I probably want to brought that baby down to the surface,

439
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:08.799
<v Speaker 2>but they followed the good rules with all the software

440
00:27:08.839 --> 00:27:12.200
<v Speaker 2>that you had developed and things that happened. To describe

441
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:16.079
<v Speaker 2>this whole scenario as we describe it in your book,

442
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:18.720
<v Speaker 2>and I think people should really read this, is that

443
00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:23.519
<v Speaker 2>there's actually three separate maneuvers that have to take place.

444
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:27.519
<v Speaker 2>One three phases for the lunar landing, and you described

445
00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:29.960
<v Speaker 2>them in the p version like p. Sixty three, P.

446
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:32.960
<v Speaker 2>Sixty four, p. Sixty five. Can you give us I

447
00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:35.599
<v Speaker 2>know it's kind of technical, what do they need to do?

448
00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:38.440
<v Speaker 2>And how did the Apollo eleven then makeage journey down

449
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:39.640
<v Speaker 2>to the surface of the bone.

450
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:46.119
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I'll describe that. Let me backtrack on one point.

451
00:27:46.759 --> 00:27:50.839
<v Speaker 1>I mentioned that Luminary flew all the lunar landings, but

452
00:27:50.920 --> 00:27:55.279
<v Speaker 1>Luminary was a program that continued to evolve, So in

453
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:59.440
<v Speaker 1>a sense, the program for each mission until we got

454
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:04.240
<v Speaker 1>to Apollo fifteen was actually different. New capabilities were being added,

455
00:28:05.240 --> 00:28:11.440
<v Speaker 1>occasionally bugs were found, and so the Apollo ten program,

456
00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:17.960
<v Speaker 1>which I believe was Luminary Revision sixty nine approximately, would

457
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:22.559
<v Speaker 1>not have done needed more work before it was ready

458
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:27.680
<v Speaker 1>for a lunar landing, so for Apollo, and leaving us

459
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:30.799
<v Speaker 1>side of the question of fuel, for Apollo ten to

460
00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:35.519
<v Speaker 1>have tried to land would not have worked out very well. Now,

461
00:28:35.559 --> 00:28:42.799
<v Speaker 1>the lunar landing did have three phases, which was important

462
00:28:43.640 --> 00:28:48.839
<v Speaker 1>in large part to make possible landing accurately at a

463
00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:52.480
<v Speaker 1>spot on the Moon. There were two. The main thing

464
00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:55.119
<v Speaker 1>that had to happen to land, to go down from

465
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:59.319
<v Speaker 1>lunar orbit to the Moon was to shed velocity. We

466
00:28:59.319 --> 00:29:03.119
<v Speaker 1>were going. You go around the Moon much slower than

467
00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:06.319
<v Speaker 1>around Earth, so we were going I believe the number

468
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:11.039
<v Speaker 1>is around thirty six hundred miles per hour fifty five

469
00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:13.880
<v Speaker 1>hundred approximately feet per a second the way we've thought

470
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:19.559
<v Speaker 1>of it, and that's with respect to the Moon. And

471
00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:22.400
<v Speaker 1>the main job is to cut that down so that

472
00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:26.200
<v Speaker 1>your velocity with respect to the Moon at the point

473
00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:30.640
<v Speaker 1>you touch it is a very low you know, a

474
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:33.319
<v Speaker 1>few you know, three foot feet for a second. Let

475
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.240
<v Speaker 1>us see say you also need to be a right

476
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:40.759
<v Speaker 1>side up when you land on the Moon. You also

477
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:44.960
<v Speaker 1>wanted to be not in the middle of any violent maneuver.

478
00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:48.160
<v Speaker 1>You want to be in a fairly calm state. So

479
00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:52.599
<v Speaker 1>to do that required an equation that could satisfy fairly

480
00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:59.319
<v Speaker 1>complex terminal conditions. The other thing was that it had

481
00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:03.519
<v Speaker 1>to be possible for a reasonable amount of time or

482
00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:05.559
<v Speaker 1>the astronauts to be able to look out the front

483
00:30:05.559 --> 00:30:09.319
<v Speaker 1>window of the limb and see the area in front

484
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:12.720
<v Speaker 1>of them where they were going to land, and to

485
00:30:12.759 --> 00:30:15.880
<v Speaker 1>be able to modify their trajectory if they saw that

486
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:18.599
<v Speaker 1>they were coming down in a place they didn't like,

487
00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:25.240
<v Speaker 1>and that required cutting the landing into several phases. The

488
00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:29.319
<v Speaker 1>first phase, which was designated P sixty three, was called

489
00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:34.079
<v Speaker 1>the breaking phase, and it began at an altitude of

490
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:38.960
<v Speaker 1>about fifty thousand feet, the velocity of about fifty five

491
00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:42.880
<v Speaker 1>one hundred feet per second, and it began with the

492
00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:48.400
<v Speaker 1>limb thrusting directly ahead, directly into the direction of motion,

493
00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:54.480
<v Speaker 1>trying to shed that velocity. And during that phase, which

494
00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:58.640
<v Speaker 1>lasted ten minutes or so, the limb gradually did maneuver

495
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:02.599
<v Speaker 1>to a more erect posture, but even until the end,

496
00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:07.960
<v Speaker 1>the view ahead was not really satisfactory. The way we

497
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:13.680
<v Speaker 1>achieved the visibility requirement then was to switch to a

498
00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:18.480
<v Speaker 1>second phase, which used the same equation but with different targets,

499
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:24.119
<v Speaker 1>and as a result of the targeting that caused the

500
00:31:24.200 --> 00:31:28.079
<v Speaker 1>limb to pitch forward, so that now the astronauts had

501
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:31.000
<v Speaker 1>a good view of the surface. And on every mission

502
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:36.839
<v Speaker 1>except Apollo eleven, you'll find the astronauts are reacting vociferously

503
00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:41.480
<v Speaker 1>and enthusiastically at that moment because they've trained, above all

504
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:44.279
<v Speaker 1>to be able to orient themselves at that moment, to

505
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:49.920
<v Speaker 1>recognize the pattern of craters ahead that would orient them

506
00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:51.200
<v Speaker 1>and show them where to go.

507
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:55.799
<v Speaker 2>Well going this upswer, Yeah, because excuse me for just

508
00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:59.519
<v Speaker 2>jumping in here. They're all watching something called what the disky,

509
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:04.279
<v Speaker 2>which is five display kind of five five line character display.

510
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:07.319
<v Speaker 2>And I'm amazed that that was there. What that was

511
00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:09.799
<v Speaker 2>actually the key to this where they had an input

512
00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:13.880
<v Speaker 2>on that screen or onto that device, the various p

513
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:16.960
<v Speaker 2>programs that you're talking about. But how did you describe it?

514
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:18.680
<v Speaker 2>You call it the disky? Is that correct?

515
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:21.920
<v Speaker 1>Discy for display and keyboard?

516
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:24.920
<v Speaker 2>And I'm just curious. I go back in the old

517
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:27.319
<v Speaker 2>days when a lot of my electronic engineer friends of

518
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:29.920
<v Speaker 2>the sixties, they said, in those days, they didn't have

519
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:32.680
<v Speaker 2>really good displays like we have today, they had something

520
00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:35.720
<v Speaker 2>called NIXI tubes. Is that something that was around at

521
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:38.559
<v Speaker 2>that time? I guess the old place.

522
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:42.480
<v Speaker 1>Nixi tubes were around the displays in the DISKI were

523
00:32:42.519 --> 00:32:47.240
<v Speaker 1>not Nixy tubes, and I can't really speak to exactly

524
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:51.839
<v Speaker 1>what they were, but some sort of electroluminescent display, and

525
00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:56.519
<v Speaker 1>it was strictly numeric. They were just looking at numbers,

526
00:32:57.119 --> 00:32:59.759
<v Speaker 1>and they had to know what those numbers meant, and

527
00:32:59.799 --> 00:33:03.359
<v Speaker 1>they had to know where the decimal point was. Now,

528
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:11.160
<v Speaker 1>some of the phases did not have to be selected

529
00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:14.319
<v Speaker 1>through the discy. Some of them could be selected automatically,

530
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:20.519
<v Speaker 1>or some of them could be selected by changes in

531
00:33:20.599 --> 00:33:25.200
<v Speaker 1>the switch settings in the cockpit. And I hadn't quite

532
00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:31.480
<v Speaker 1>gotten to the sorry for that dinging. I hadn't quite

533
00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:34.640
<v Speaker 1>gotten the third phase of the liberal landing, which was

534
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:39.000
<v Speaker 1>the very last part where the astronaut with the assistance

535
00:33:39.079 --> 00:33:42.920
<v Speaker 1>of the computer, is flying the limb somewhat like a helicopter,

536
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:47.519
<v Speaker 1>sort of a stick and rutter style during the final

537
00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:49.920
<v Speaker 1>couple of hundred feet of the lunar descent.

538
00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:56.240
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's incredible what we're hearing here on this particular

539
00:33:56.240 --> 00:34:00.799
<v Speaker 2>interview today. But don is the spacecraft was the sunning

540
00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:03.480
<v Speaker 2>to the moon. To Paulo eleven. We have this thing

541
00:34:03.519 --> 00:34:05.720
<v Speaker 2>that I never got anybody to be able to explain it,

542
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:07.359
<v Speaker 2>and I know you can. They get a twelve o

543
00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:10.480
<v Speaker 2>two alarm and then a twelve oh one alarm. Is

544
00:34:10.519 --> 00:34:12.440
<v Speaker 2>that correct? Is they're getting down to the surface of

545
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:12.800
<v Speaker 2>the moon.

546
00:34:14.119 --> 00:34:17.880
<v Speaker 1>There were five alarms in all, and the two types

547
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:20.760
<v Speaker 1>you mentioned. They were all of the two types you mentioned.

548
00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:26.039
<v Speaker 1>And it was of course a scary moment because something

549
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:28.960
<v Speaker 1>was happening in our computer that at the time we

550
00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:37.559
<v Speaker 1>did not understand. However, the spacecraft state owned trajectory and

551
00:34:39.079 --> 00:34:44.800
<v Speaker 1>didn't show any other problems than these alarms. What happened, however,

552
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:49.719
<v Speaker 1>when each of these alarms occurred, was a reboot of

553
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:54.239
<v Speaker 1>the software on the fly, and that of course was

554
00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:58.519
<v Speaker 1>a bit scary. Yes, it was all calls by sort

555
00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:03.599
<v Speaker 1>of they listener standing the electronics. It was made possible

556
00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:08.920
<v Speaker 1>by a switch setting in the cocktent that possibly was

557
00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:11.840
<v Speaker 1>ill advised and maybe hadn't been totally fought through.

558
00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:15.320
<v Speaker 2>But they came kind of close to what potentially won

559
00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:17.960
<v Speaker 2>the abort button which you don't want to push. Correct,

560
00:35:17.960 --> 00:35:19.719
<v Speaker 2>I mean that was or is that not true? They

561
00:35:19.719 --> 00:35:23.360
<v Speaker 2>were actually on to continue. Obviously mission control thought it

562
00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:26.239
<v Speaker 2>was good, but were they actually really close to actually

563
00:35:26.599 --> 00:35:28.079
<v Speaker 2>telling them to punch that aboardment.

564
00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:30.880
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I think they were quite close. I mean, I

565
00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:35.320
<v Speaker 1>think that was exactly the situation. Do we continue this

566
00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:38.639
<v Speaker 1>lunar landing? Is it safe to continue this lunar landing?

567
00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:42.840
<v Speaker 1>Of course the lunar landing is never safe. But shall

568
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:46.239
<v Speaker 1>we continue this lunar landing or shall we aboard? And

569
00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:49.480
<v Speaker 1>in this case, mission control had a better perspective on

570
00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:51.559
<v Speaker 1>the problem than we did in Cambridge.

571
00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:54.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, Don, it's all to the success not only a

572
00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:57.000
<v Speaker 2>mission control, but you and the great people behind this

573
00:35:57.119 --> 00:36:00.559
<v Speaker 2>team to develop something that most humans on this planet

574
00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:02.599
<v Speaker 2>really don't have an idea of about how to get

575
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:05.280
<v Speaker 2>to the surface of the Moon in the most difficult

576
00:36:05.320 --> 00:36:08.719
<v Speaker 2>what twelve minutes of all But hopefully in a future interview,

577
00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:10.480
<v Speaker 2>if you're so kind to give us your time, I'd

578
00:36:10.519 --> 00:36:12.960
<v Speaker 2>love to continue, but just really quickly through this, and

579
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:16.480
<v Speaker 2>we have a few minutes left on Apollo twelve. Never

580
00:36:16.519 --> 00:36:18.760
<v Speaker 2>had half the opportunity to meet Pete Conrad, but I

581
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:21.519
<v Speaker 2>did talk with al Bean once. As you describe it

582
00:36:21.559 --> 00:36:24.960
<v Speaker 2>in the book, the rocket is launched and lightning strikes

583
00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:28.519
<v Speaker 2>the actual Saturn five and then they get this whole

584
00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:32.320
<v Speaker 2>on a blackout, on their whole consoles, and then there

585
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:34.360
<v Speaker 2>was this way to save it that really not too

586
00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:36.360
<v Speaker 2>many people knew about. It was something where you had

587
00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:38.599
<v Speaker 2>to hit a switch or do something called see to

588
00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:42.639
<v Speaker 2>auxiliary And I guess what that saved the emission. That

589
00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:45.360
<v Speaker 2>would have been a potential real disaster. Right if nothing

590
00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:48.320
<v Speaker 2>came back online, Well.

591
00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:53.199
<v Speaker 1>The astron the spacecraft would have reached orbit safely. Oh

592
00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:58.280
<v Speaker 1>even without SCEE the hawks. It is a famous instant,

593
00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:01.280
<v Speaker 1>John Aaron, I believe it's credit with coming up with that,

594
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:07.239
<v Speaker 1>and by thinking of that, and by the switch being

595
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:12.480
<v Speaker 1>flipped in the cockpit, it gave it restored information to

596
00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:17.000
<v Speaker 1>the ground. It allowed the ground now to see what

597
00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:20.920
<v Speaker 1>was happening. So I think it was very important for

598
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:21.639
<v Speaker 1>that reason.

599
00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:27.480
<v Speaker 2>Well that the reading in history. But I wanted to

600
00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:29.440
<v Speaker 2>ask you quickly and again if you're kind enough to

601
00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:31.039
<v Speaker 2>do this with us in the future here on the

602
00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:33.480
<v Speaker 2>Doctor Scout Experience, would love to do a part two

603
00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:35.320
<v Speaker 2>of this and even do some other things where we

604
00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:38.159
<v Speaker 2>do on big movie theaters around the country where we

605
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:42.079
<v Speaker 2>have guests pop in on different various means like zoom,

606
00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:44.199
<v Speaker 2>where we actually have an audience in there to do

607
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:46.559
<v Speaker 2>a talkback. But what I'd like to ask you, is

608
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:49.639
<v Speaker 2>we both had the opportunity of knowing it, doctor edgar Mitchell,

609
00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:53.239
<v Speaker 2>But tell us briefly the story of Apollo fourteen, because

610
00:37:53.239 --> 00:37:56.360
<v Speaker 2>you obviously had your fifteen plus minutes maybe in fame

611
00:37:56.440 --> 00:37:59.199
<v Speaker 2>on this and it wasn't your plan, but you're the

612
00:37:59.239 --> 00:38:01.559
<v Speaker 2>one who figured out something. What was it that happened

613
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:02.719
<v Speaker 2>with Apollo for fourteen?

614
00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:07.880
<v Speaker 1>Well, once more, it was my software that was involved,

615
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:10.440
<v Speaker 1>as it had been a limb one and again on

616
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:18.199
<v Speaker 1>Apollo eleven with the alarms, because it was discovered in

617
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:23.239
<v Speaker 1>Houston during the hours leading up to the lunar landing

618
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:27.679
<v Speaker 1>that a switch in the cockpit was sending a spurious

619
00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:31.440
<v Speaker 1>signal and it was the abort switch or the abort button.

620
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:36.239
<v Speaker 1>It would be used during a landing to immediately command

621
00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:40.880
<v Speaker 1>an a board and if that did occur during the landing,

622
00:38:41.880 --> 00:38:45.159
<v Speaker 1>it would were in the mission because it would have

623
00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:52.320
<v Speaker 1>been impossible to recycle. So the reason my software was

624
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:56.280
<v Speaker 1>involved is that that switch sent a signal to the computer,

625
00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:00.760
<v Speaker 1>which at this point, well before the landing, we weren't

626
00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:03.719
<v Speaker 1>looking at They just were able to see it on

627
00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:09.880
<v Speaker 1>a console in Houston. But once the lunar landing started,

628
00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:12.760
<v Speaker 1>a piece of software would start running which I had written,

629
00:39:13.559 --> 00:39:19.800
<v Speaker 1>which tests for an input from those switches, because they

630
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:23.079
<v Speaker 1>are actually too the aboord and aboard state switch, and

631
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:25.559
<v Speaker 1>if it sees that one of them has been pushed,

632
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:30.920
<v Speaker 1>it dispatches the correct program to do the abort. And

633
00:39:32.840 --> 00:39:35.800
<v Speaker 1>so what I was able to do was to come

634
00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:39.280
<v Speaker 1>up with a way to defeat my own software to

635
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:43.639
<v Speaker 1>make it not sensitive to this input. And so that

636
00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:48.800
<v Speaker 1>was the germ of the idea, was to set something

637
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:54.400
<v Speaker 1>that indicated and the board was already in process, which

638
00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:58.239
<v Speaker 1>wasn't true, but the indication could be set which fooled

639
00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:04.360
<v Speaker 1>the software into not looking at the buttons. And of

640
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:06.800
<v Speaker 1>course there were some other consequences that had to be

641
00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:12.079
<v Speaker 1>dealt with. But we did develop that procedure in Cambridge

642
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:15.320
<v Speaker 1>over the course of an hour or so. Tests it

643
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:19.400
<v Speaker 1>in Cambridge, it was tested in Houston, and it was

644
00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:25.079
<v Speaker 1>right up to the spacecraft and with admirable song Fla

645
00:40:25.559 --> 00:40:31.119
<v Speaker 1>it was adopted and Keiden the computer by metrol.

646
00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:34.519
<v Speaker 2>You know, that's real genius and I'm so honored to

647
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:36.559
<v Speaker 2>have you here today. Done Really, I'm serious. I'm a

648
00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:38.800
<v Speaker 2>big fan of the space program. I never flew anything

649
00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:41.000
<v Speaker 2>in space, nor am I an asher, not just a

650
00:40:41.079 --> 00:40:43.679
<v Speaker 2>journalist that tries to do the best by listening to

651
00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:45.719
<v Speaker 2>great stories. But I got to ask you this as

652
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:49.119
<v Speaker 2>we talk about NASA twenty twenty two. We've been talking

653
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:52.599
<v Speaker 2>on our shows around the nation about Artemis One interesting

654
00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:55.280
<v Speaker 2>I find out that the SR twenty five engines on there,

655
00:40:55.320 --> 00:40:58.079
<v Speaker 2>they're not brand new engines. They've been flight tested, they say,

656
00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:01.199
<v Speaker 2>four hundred and five flights. The SR twenty five's have

657
00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:03.880
<v Speaker 2>been a generally good engine. But let me ask you

658
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:07.239
<v Speaker 2>from the personal side, the NASA of today. I mean, again,

659
00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:09.159
<v Speaker 2>I don't mean to get very political here, but I

660
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:12.119
<v Speaker 2>just got to ask the question. There seems, in my opinion,

661
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:15.159
<v Speaker 2>by talking to so many space pioneers and people, that

662
00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:18.000
<v Speaker 2>there was a different type of feeling and your description

663
00:41:18.119 --> 00:41:20.360
<v Speaker 2>of what the feeling was like, and I'm quoting you

664
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:25.239
<v Speaker 2>primed for Adventure end of quote, what's going on with NASA?

665
00:41:25.320 --> 00:41:26.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if you were there to tell them to

666
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:29.159
<v Speaker 2>advise them, are they doing everything right? Or is there

667
00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:31.440
<v Speaker 2>something wrong that we're not looking out here? And art of.

668
00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:39.159
<v Speaker 1>Us, Well, it's a difficult subject. I don't think there's

669
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:48.519
<v Speaker 1>anything wrong, but I do think that some spirit that

670
00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:53.199
<v Speaker 1>we had back then is missing, and it's hard to

671
00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:57.519
<v Speaker 1>put your finger my finger on what that is. It

672
00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:01.719
<v Speaker 1>was an ability heat to go directly at the problem,

673
00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:06.599
<v Speaker 1>it seems like, and in a way I mentioned our

674
00:42:06.679 --> 00:42:10.239
<v Speaker 1>little computer that had the capacity for thirty thousand lines

675
00:42:10.280 --> 00:42:17.199
<v Speaker 1>of code, but in some small way that was an advantage,

676
00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:21.880
<v Speaker 1>and the very practical and simple design of the lunar

677
00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:27.960
<v Speaker 1>module was sort of looking directly at the problem without

678
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:36.000
<v Speaker 1>somehow there's a sense of complication having entered that we

679
00:42:36.119 --> 00:42:39.440
<v Speaker 1>didn't feel in those days. I don't think I've expressed

680
00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:43.000
<v Speaker 1>this very well, you know, I still have confidence in that.

681
00:42:43.519 --> 00:42:50.719
<v Speaker 1>I'm also amazed by what Musk is done, and I

682
00:42:50.840 --> 00:42:56.920
<v Speaker 1>think they will have success. And their concept I think

683
00:42:57.039 --> 00:43:01.880
<v Speaker 1>is sound or the moon the way to Mars, and

684
00:43:01.960 --> 00:43:04.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm looking forward to them having a success with FAD,

685
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:11.239
<v Speaker 1>even though I think perhaps they are.

686
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:14.280
<v Speaker 2>Too.

687
00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:19.159
<v Speaker 1>There's certainly much more bonded down in a managerial culture

688
00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:20.440
<v Speaker 1>than we shall we say.

689
00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:23.000
<v Speaker 2>That's exactly what I was going to say. I agree

690
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:25.599
<v Speaker 2>with you there, sir. I'm again a big, big fan

691
00:43:25.639 --> 00:43:27.760
<v Speaker 2>of what has has done, and especially what you folks

692
00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:29.920
<v Speaker 2>have done. But I hope in the future that we

693
00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:32.440
<v Speaker 2>can do this again here on the Doctor Sky experience.

694
00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:33.960
<v Speaker 2>I want to thank you for your time and please

695
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:36.519
<v Speaker 2>stay on the line with us as we conclude this

696
00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:40.559
<v Speaker 2>Doctor Sky Experience here exclusively on talk radio seventy seven

697
00:43:41.119 --> 00:43:44.679
<v Speaker 2>WABC out of New York with our producer Richard Dugan,

698
00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:49.719
<v Speaker 2>Doctor Dean, as we explore these great realms of astronomy, space, aviation, weather,

699
00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:54.559
<v Speaker 2>celebrity guests, and common sense interviews about our American heritage.

700
00:43:54.840 --> 00:43:56.840
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much, Don, it's a privilege and honor.

701
00:43:56.920 --> 00:44:01.360
<v Speaker 2>The book Sunburst at Luminary and Apollo Memoir again published

702
00:44:01.400 --> 00:44:04.519
<v Speaker 2>by Ford Point Press. You can get the book wherever

703
00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:07.880
<v Speaker 2>good books are sold. And let's talk again. I always

704
00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:10.079
<v Speaker 2>say this to everybody, and I think you would degree here.

705
00:44:10.119 --> 00:44:12.239
<v Speaker 2>Always what remember to keep your eyes to the skies

706
00:44:12.599 --> 00:44:15.239
<v Speaker 2>and thank you for what your team did back there

707
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:18.360
<v Speaker 2>quite a while ago. Ladies and gentlemen at the great

708
00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:23.039
<v Speaker 2>Minds of Mit their logo there they're mantramends at manas

709
00:44:23.559 --> 00:44:26.119
<v Speaker 2>mind in hand. Thank you so much, Don Niles. Stay

710
00:44:26.199 --> 00:44:28.119
<v Speaker 2>on the line with us and thank you. Until next

711
00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:31.320
<v Speaker 2>week we'll talk more on the Doctor Sky Experience. Email

712
00:44:31.400 --> 00:44:34.760
<v Speaker 2>me at Doctor Skyshow at gmail dot com at the

713
00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:39.920
<v Speaker 2>drs Ay Show at gmail. Thank you, Don thank you.

714
00:44:40.119 --> 00:44:40.760
<v Speaker 1>I enjoyed it,