WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Now one of your pudding. I got a string going

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<v Speaker 1>on here, something.

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<v Speaker 2>Just because my dog.

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<v Speaker 1>Something killed your dog.

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<v Speaker 2>My dog.

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<v Speaker 1>We're flying through the air over the tree. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know how it did it, Okay, Damn, I'm really confused.

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<v Speaker 1>All I saw was my dog.

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<v Speaker 2>Coming over the fence and he was dead.

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<v Speaker 3>And once you hit the ground like, I didn't see

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<v Speaker 3>any cars.

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<v Speaker 1>All I saw was my dog coming over the fence.

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<v Speaker 3>Sat, what are you putting?

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<v Speaker 2>We got some wonder or something crawling around out here?

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<v Speaker 2>Did you see what it was?

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<v Speaker 3>It was?

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<v Speaker 2>It was standing enough.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm out here looking through the window now and I

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<v Speaker 1>don't see anything.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't want to go outside.

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<v Speaker 1>Jesus Quice, you better.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, hit thebody out here when I'm out there. I

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<v Speaker 2>thought of a venus about Tex forty nine.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>Easy him out there.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm working right.

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<v Speaker 4>Hey.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, there are some people who leave a mark

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<v Speaker 2>so deep, so genuine, that their absence feels almost impossible

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<v Speaker 2>to comprehend. For me, one of those people was doctor

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<v Speaker 2>Jeff Meldrum. I first met Jeff back in March of

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty one, when I was just a fledgling podcaster

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<v Speaker 2>trying to find my footing. He didn't have to say

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<v Speaker 2>yes to being on my show, but he did graciously, humbly,

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<v Speaker 2>and from that moment on he set the tone for

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<v Speaker 2>the kind of person I'd come to know him to be.

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<v Speaker 2>Just a few short years later, I found myself standing

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<v Speaker 2>beside him on stage sharing that moment with Jeff Cliff Barrockman,

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<v Speaker 2>and Michael Freeman at a conference in Idaho. It was

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<v Speaker 2>surreal the same man I'd admired for years was now

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<v Speaker 2>a colleague, a friend, and a mentorstime I saw Jeff

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<v Speaker 2>was back at the end of July at the Smoky

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<v Speaker 2>Mountain big Foot Conference in Gatlinburg, Tennessee. We had just

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<v Speaker 2>finished setting up our booths and Jeff was sitting quietly

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<v Speaker 2>off to the side. I carried over the plaster casts

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<v Speaker 2>of footprints from our property, hoping to get his take

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<v Speaker 2>on them, as I always valued his eye for detail.

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<v Speaker 2>We sat and talked for a while about his upcoming retirement,

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<v Speaker 2>about life, and about the things that still fascinated him most.

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<v Speaker 2>He joked about trying to convince his wife Lauren, that

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<v Speaker 2>he needed more space at home to store his ever

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<v Speaker 2>growing collection of casts, since he'd be losing that massive

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<v Speaker 2>lab space at the University. I remember laughing, but I

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<v Speaker 2>also remember feeling that something was different. Jeff still had

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<v Speaker 2>that kindness in his eyes, that thoughtfulness in his words,

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<v Speaker 2>but there was a quiet heaviness there too. Still, as always,

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<v Speaker 2>he was giving with his time, generous with his spirit.

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<v Speaker 2>I had no idea that it would be the life

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<v Speaker 2>last time I'd ever see him. Since his passing, I've

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<v Speaker 2>watched as countless people have paid tribute to him, students, colleagues,

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<v Speaker 2>fellow researchers, and fans from all around the world. I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't rush to do the same, because, to be honest,

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<v Speaker 2>I needed time, time to sit with the loss, time

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<v Speaker 2>to process what Jeff meant to me personally and what

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<v Speaker 2>he meant to this community. So tonight I want to

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<v Speaker 2>honor him in the most fitting way I can think of,

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<v Speaker 2>by going back to where it all began. What you're

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<v Speaker 2>about to hear is our very first conversation, fully remastered

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<v Speaker 2>from that original Sasquatch Odyssey interview we recorded back in

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<v Speaker 2>March of twenty twenty one. This is my way of

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<v Speaker 2>saying thank you, Jeff for your kindness, for your brilliance,

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<v Speaker 2>and for the legacy you've left behind in the study

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<v Speaker 2>of Sasquatch and in the hearts of all of us

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<v Speaker 2>who were lucky enough to know you. Welcome to the show, Doctor.

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<v Speaker 1>Meldrim, Thank you pleasure to be here.

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<v Speaker 2>It's my pleasure and it's an honor to get to

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<v Speaker 2>speak to you. I wanted to jump right into this

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<v Speaker 2>journey that you've been on basically since the nineties. I

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<v Speaker 2>know before that something got you interested in the subject

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<v Speaker 2>of Sasquatch and sent you on this path. Can you

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<v Speaker 2>walk me and the audience into your first introduction to

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<v Speaker 2>these things? What happened? Did it piqued your interest?

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<v Speaker 1>Certainly? It began back when I was a youngster, about

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<v Speaker 1>ten years old in the fifth grade. As I recall,

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<v Speaker 1>at that time, it just happened that Roger Patterson began

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<v Speaker 1>his public airing of the documentary, which showcased the sixty

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<v Speaker 1>second film clip from Bluff Cree. One of the premiere

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<v Speaker 1>showings was at the Spokane Coliseum, where I lived at

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<v Speaker 1>the time. The kids at school were all a buzz

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<v Speaker 1>about the announcement that appeared in the paper, and I

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<v Speaker 1>had never heard of Bigfoot or Sasquatch before that, but

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<v Speaker 1>was always fascinated in all things prehistoric. Went through the

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<v Speaker 1>dinosaur phase, was fascinated with the questions of human evolution

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<v Speaker 1>even at that age, cave in and so forth. This

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<v Speaker 1>just seemed to embody all the mysteries prehistoric man and

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<v Speaker 1>all that wrapped into one package long story shorts. We

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<v Speaker 1>were there for one of the showings. My dad took

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<v Speaker 1>myself and my younger brother, and I know the rest.

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<v Speaker 1>Just one thing fell into another. I guess the other

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<v Speaker 1>thing that really the course was The next year in

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<v Speaker 1>sixth grade was a unit on primates, and because of

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<v Speaker 1>an open minded, excellent to sixth grade teacher when someone

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<v Speaker 1>equipped that Bickfoot would be a primate, rather than just

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<v Speaker 1>dismiss it as myth or fable, she had us evaluate

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<v Speaker 1>it based on how it was described by suppose that

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<v Speaker 1>eyewitnesses films. We determined that it seemed to have those

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<v Speaker 1>characteristics that we were enumerating to define primates, so she

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<v Speaker 1>included it on a litany of examples of primates that

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<v Speaker 1>we were going to Then, in turn, Doo reports on it. I,

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<v Speaker 1>by the quick draw action of my hand shooting up,

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<v Speaker 1>got picked to do Sasquatch along with another classmate. It

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<v Speaker 1>turns out that our librarian was the niece of John Green,

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<v Speaker 1>and had herself quite an extensive little file with the

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<v Speaker 1>newspaper clippings and magazine articles and a brand's banking new

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<v Speaker 1>copy of John Green's On the Track of the Sasquatch.

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<v Speaker 1>That was my introduction early on was Roger Patterson's book,

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<v Speaker 1>followed by John Greens On the Track of the Sasquatch.

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<v Speaker 1>And then shortly thereafter I got hold of a copy

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<v Speaker 1>of Ivan Sanderson's A Bomb Snowman Legend comes a live

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<v Speaker 1>boy once the fire was lit. Then I went after

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<v Speaker 1>it with a lot of gusto and started my own

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<v Speaker 1>collection of clippings. I was always scouring through other books

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<v Speaker 1>that mentioned things about the Yetti and Bigfoot. Of course,

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<v Speaker 1>I found out there was another Bigfoot in Idaho. Once

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<v Speaker 1>I moved to Idah, we shortly thereafter moved to Boise

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<v Speaker 1>found out about the renegade Indian by the name of

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<v Speaker 1>Bigfoot who was shot by Star Wilkerson down in the

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<v Speaker 1>Awahi Desert. It was a kind of all encompassing obsession

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<v Speaker 1>with the subject matter.

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<v Speaker 2>It definitely sounds like quite the introduction. When did you

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<v Speaker 2>get the opportunity to dive into the footprints and the

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<v Speaker 2>castings and what was your introduction to that.

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<v Speaker 1>Eventually I read Grover Krantz's book A Big Footprints, in

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<v Speaker 1>which footprints and casts figure very prominently. Grover was an

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<v Speaker 1>anatomist and that was where his attention tended to focus

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<v Speaker 1>was on the physical trace of the creature in the

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<v Speaker 1>form of the footprints and footprint casts. Of course, he

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<v Speaker 1>was very involved with the investigation into the Bosberg cripplefoot incident,

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<v Speaker 1>and that was what really tipped the scales for him.

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<v Speaker 1>He was just so impressed by the subtleties of anatomy

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<v Speaker 1>that were evident in that either pathological or traumatized individual

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<v Speaker 1>that he felt it tipped the scale definitely decidedly for

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<v Speaker 1>him by involved in as an academic. It started just

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit before my first real big exposure to

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<v Speaker 1>footprints and casts myself. I was capped to help with

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<v Speaker 1>the evaluation of a piece of video footage that was

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<v Speaker 1>shot down in the California Redwoods and the Jededi Smith

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<v Speaker 1>National Forest, and this became known as the Playmate video.

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<v Speaker 1>It was shot by a documentary crew with a guest

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<v Speaker 1>hostess who had been the Playmate of the Year on

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<v Speaker 1>a previous occasion. It unfortunately got a lot of insinuation

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<v Speaker 1>and so forth the comic relief if you will, as

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<v Speaker 1>a result of that. But it was an interesting piece

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<v Speaker 1>of video footage to kind of peak my curiosity, because

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<v Speaker 1>when I was recruited to analyze it, I thought, all

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<v Speaker 1>this would be a fun exercise to identify the zipper.

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<v Speaker 1>The more I scrutinized it, less I felt I could

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<v Speaker 1>see any kind of red flag that it was not

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<v Speaker 1>the real deal. And there were some really striking parallels

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<v Speaker 1>and convergences, in fact in the shape confirmation of the

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<v Speaker 1>body form with Patty from the Patterson Gimlin film specifically,

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<v Speaker 1>and so that had set the wheels in motion. It

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<v Speaker 1>was just an interesting cascade of coincidences that there are

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<v Speaker 1>such things. On the return from that, we actually went

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<v Speaker 1>and visited the site in northern California and did all

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<v Speaker 1>kinds of on the site forensic measurement and analysis in

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<v Speaker 1>concert with the reviewing and analysis of the film. The

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<v Speaker 1>fellow I was working with, the late Richard Greenwell, formerly

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<v Speaker 1>the International Cryptology Society. Richard handed me a little book

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<v Speaker 1>about Bigfoot of the in the Blues, namely the Blue

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<v Speaker 1>Mountains of eastern Oregon and southeastern Washington. That was written

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<v Speaker 1>by Vance Orchard. That was the second stepping stone, because

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<v Speaker 1>that focused on the exploits of Paul Freeman, West Summerlind

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<v Speaker 1>Vance Orchards, and Bill Lowry and other characters in that

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<v Speaker 1>area surrounding Walla, Washington. It was in the course of

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<v Speaker 1>actually writing a review of that book for Richard Greenwell

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<v Speaker 1>for his journal, that I came into direct contact with

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<v Speaker 1>Paul Freeman in West Summerland and these other principal personalities

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<v Speaker 1>in this book. Was there on an occasion had the

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<v Speaker 1>opportunity to see some of Freeman in Summerland's casts firsthand.

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<v Speaker 1>Freeman happened to have found some footprints that very morning.

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<v Speaker 1>This is too coincidental for to the odds, but I thought,

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<v Speaker 1>what we got to lose, Let's go out and take

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<v Speaker 1>a look at least, and so we did. And man,

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<v Speaker 1>here was this long line of extremely fresh tracks that

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<v Speaker 1>had been laid down in the hours of the previous

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<v Speaker 1>night or early morning, thirty five forty five clear footprints

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<v Speaker 1>in the mud. It just really bowled me over. As

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<v Speaker 1>a backdrop, my academic profession is teaching human gross anatomy,

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<v Speaker 1>but my research focuses on the evolution of human bipedalism,

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<v Speaker 1>especially those adaptations of the lower extremity, particularly the foot

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<v Speaker 1>With that the analysis of fossil footprints and contemporary human

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<v Speaker 1>and non human primate footprints in order to carry out

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<v Speaker 1>comparative anatomical analyzes of those specimens. I know footprints. I

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<v Speaker 1>think I'm in the position to scrutinize these and know

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<v Speaker 1>what I'm looking at. It was sobering because these were

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<v Speaker 1>very compelling pieces of evidence. I'll leave it there at

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<v Speaker 1>some time for some more questions.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm fascinated by that because I've heard you talk about

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<v Speaker 2>that in the past, and that these guys had no

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<v Speaker 2>idea that you were coming. Your trip was completely unplanned.

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<v Speaker 4>Here.

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<v Speaker 2>These footprints were that you got to examine some of

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<v Speaker 2>the questions that I've gotten from folks that listen to

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<v Speaker 2>the show. One of them was talking about the dermal ridges.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you talk a little bit about the dermal ridges?

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<v Speaker 1>Doctor Krantz drew attention initially to these, or at least

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<v Speaker 1>publicized it widely. There was actually an account by a

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<v Speaker 1>group from Idaho, a crypto zoology club up at the

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<v Speaker 1>College of Northern Idaho. They had investigated an account of

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<v Speaker 1>footprints that were found there the cast that was made

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<v Speaker 1>showed evidence of dramatoglyphics. They didn't take it much beyond

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<v Speaker 1>just acknowledging. Noting that presence, Doctor Krantz went to great

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<v Speaker 1>lengths to consult with other latent fingerprint examiners, students of

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<v Speaker 1>dramaticglyphics in anthropology, and so forth, and published a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of papers that quite interesting. I had mentioned this because

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<v Speaker 1>some of the footprints that I had received from Paul

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<v Speaker 1>Freeman and West Summerlin showed evidence of dramatoglyphics above and

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<v Speaker 1>beyond the ones that Grover had drawn attention to, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'd mentioned this in the documentary that aired, and a

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<v Speaker 1>latent fingerprint examiner in Texas, officer Jimmy chilcut took note

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<v Speaker 1>and sat up in his chair. He was not only

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<v Speaker 1>a very skilled fingerprint expert and analyst, but he was

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<v Speaker 1>also very interested in the distribution of distinguishing characteristics of

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<v Speaker 1>different ethnic groups of human populations. To better appreciate that

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<v Speaker 1>very and understand it, he had taken it on himself

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<v Speaker 1>to start studying up on actually collecting an extensive collection

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<v Speaker 1>of non human primate traumatoglyphics. He would go and make

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<v Speaker 1>arrangements to go into the zoos. For example, when the

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<v Speaker 1>primates were undergoing their annual veterinary examinations and were anesthetized,

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<v Speaker 1>he would come in and while they were still asleep,

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<v Speaker 1>he would fingerprint their hands and feet. Had quite a collection.

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<v Speaker 1>He contacted me. Eventually came up from Texas to Idaho

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<v Speaker 1>and spent a couple of days in my lab. I

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<v Speaker 1>just turned him loose at first and let him find

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<v Speaker 1>his way without biasing him by pointing any particular things out.

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<v Speaker 1>And pretty soon he calls me into the lab and

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<v Speaker 1>he has all the most pertinent examples laid out on

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<v Speaker 1>the benchtop from the collection. We started to go through them,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was really quite interesting to have his perspective

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<v Speaker 1>on them. Now, it's been a little bit of a

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<v Speaker 1>mixed bag because a couple of the specimens had features

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<v Speaker 1>that were similar to dramaticglyphics. But I think we're all

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<v Speaker 1>convinced now are artifacts of the casting process under certain conditions,

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<v Speaker 1>particularly if it's very hot and dry, the soils are powdery,

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<v Speaker 1>like the dusting logging roads from northern California there back

247
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<v Speaker 1>in the sixties, when a couple of these specimens, that

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<v Speaker 1>attention has been drawn to by chillcut were made. If

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<v Speaker 1>you pour plaster that has been mixed in hot water

250
00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:33.519
<v Speaker 1>or warm water, if your two liter bottles been sitting

251
00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:36.440
<v Speaker 1>out in the sun or whatever, it tends to set

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<v Speaker 1>up very abruptly. It kicks, they call that when it

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<v Speaker 1>sets up well. Especially then on top of that, when

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<v Speaker 1>it hits the very dry, powdery substrate, it wicks water

255
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<v Speaker 1>away very quickly, and that causes the plaster to kick,

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<v Speaker 1>so you can get some of these weird features. It's

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<v Speaker 1>like people I've probably seen something very similar. If they

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<v Speaker 1>make pancakes on a good hot grip and you pour

259
00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:05.480
<v Speaker 1>that batter, it cooks very rapidly. But the batter that

260
00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:09.080
<v Speaker 1>you continue pouring flows over the top of that cooked

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00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:11.919
<v Speaker 1>edge and makes another cooked hedge and another, and you

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<v Speaker 1>flip the pancake and it has these concentric rings around

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<v Speaker 1>the outside. Everyone's seen this at some time or another.

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<v Speaker 1>That's the same principle in a way, the same effect,

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<v Speaker 1>but a different principle. The principle here is the water

266
00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:28.399
<v Speaker 1>sucked out and the plaster kicks, and then the more

267
00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:32.559
<v Speaker 1>fluid plaster flows over and hits that substrate that dust

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00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:36.639
<v Speaker 1>and kicks again. Point being, there are some examples that

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<v Speaker 1>are simply artifact. But to dismiss all of them as artifact,

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<v Speaker 1>I think is missing the boat is throwing the baby

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<v Speaker 1>out the bath water, because we have some very interesting

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<v Speaker 1>ones that were poured under the opposite conditions, very wet

273
00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:56.600
<v Speaker 1>saturated cold soils that were wet clay shoulders of a

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00:15:56.720 --> 00:16:02.360
<v Speaker 1>road right underneath a melting snow bank. So the ridge

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<v Speaker 1>detail there is very real.

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<v Speaker 2>And stay tuned for more sasquatch out to sea. We'll

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<v Speaker 2>be right back after these messages.

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<v Speaker 1>Plus I've observed it in the field the tracks that

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<v Speaker 1>I examined in ninety six, this long line of tracks

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<v Speaker 1>thirty five to forty five I nailed down and there

281
00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:26.080
<v Speaker 1>was still ridge detail visible in some of the tracks,

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<v Speaker 1>but by the time we got back had been drizzling

283
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<v Speaker 1>rain off and on all afternoon. The ridge detail under

284
00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:37.159
<v Speaker 1>those conditions is very transient. The weather and the gravity

285
00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:41.960
<v Speaker 1>literally pulls the detail out, flattens it out, if not

286
00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:44.919
<v Speaker 1>washes it out. So by the time we actually made

287
00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:50.159
<v Speaker 1>some plaster casts, some representative casts, those details had been obliterated.

288
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<v Speaker 1>We are no no longer visible. People say, why don't

289
00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:55.159
<v Speaker 1>you have repeat appearances where you can identify based on

290
00:16:55.200 --> 00:17:01.399
<v Speaker 1>the No. Unfortunately, because they are not extensive, they're very rare.

291
00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:05.839
<v Speaker 1>They're not present in a lot of examples. We don't

292
00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:11.680
<v Speaker 1>have repeat appearances of individuals that show the same areas

293
00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:15.519
<v Speaker 1>preserving ridge details. So you could look at that spot

294
00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:18.599
<v Speaker 1>and see it and be satisfied with it or identified

295
00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:22.359
<v Speaker 1>it as the same individual. We can recognize individuals in

296
00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:27.400
<v Speaker 1>the basis of morphology. We've got ample, numerous repeat appearances

297
00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:31.799
<v Speaker 1>of individuals where a given geographical area, being that there

298
00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:35.440
<v Speaker 1>are very few sasquatch, if you find footprints, the odds

299
00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:38.880
<v Speaker 1>of those footprints being from one of those very few

300
00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:42.400
<v Speaker 1>number of individuals is very high. You're likely to find

301
00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:46.839
<v Speaker 1>footprints of those individuals. Again, that's the case, especially in

302
00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:51.119
<v Speaker 1>somewhere like the Blues, where there's been an inordinate number

303
00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:55.880
<v Speaker 1>of footprint casts made because of the conditions that prevail

304
00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:58.359
<v Speaker 1>the many roads that are undeveloped, that are just simply

305
00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:03.799
<v Speaker 1>bladed codes. In the summertime, they're dusty, and those fall

306
00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:08.319
<v Speaker 1>and spring their muddy and clayey fine dust turns into

307
00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:11.559
<v Speaker 1>a really nice clay that picks up fine details. We've

308
00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:15.960
<v Speaker 1>got lots of examples of repeat appearances of recognizable individuals

309
00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:18.400
<v Speaker 1>in that sample from the Blues of Washington.

310
00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:21.599
<v Speaker 2>I think you touched on something that's key is the

311
00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:25.440
<v Speaker 2>actual population of these things across North America. Do you

312
00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:27.920
<v Speaker 2>have a best estimate on what you think the actual

313
00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:31.000
<v Speaker 2>population that's currently in North America would be.

314
00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:34.720
<v Speaker 1>I do Ballpark anyway, or at least the western part

315
00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:37.839
<v Speaker 1>of North America that I'm more familiar with. And it's

316
00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:44.720
<v Speaker 1>based on a number of inferences. It's layered cake of explanation. Basically,

317
00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:48.480
<v Speaker 1>it rests upon factors of their natural history and also

318
00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:53.400
<v Speaker 1>factors of the biogeography. We have hints about their behavior

319
00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:56.319
<v Speaker 1>and natural history. For example, most of the sightings and

320
00:18:56.319 --> 00:19:00.920
<v Speaker 1>footprints or solitary individuals. So it's most like I believe,

321
00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:06.119
<v Speaker 1>I'm convinced I've concluded that they're solitary. They might most

322
00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:10.720
<v Speaker 1>closely represent or approximate something like an orangutan. When you

323
00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:13.079
<v Speaker 1>look at the great apes. Every species of great apes

324
00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:16.839
<v Speaker 1>has a different social structure. No two are alike. So

325
00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:20.480
<v Speaker 1>the orangutan, rather than say a guerrilla, has a harem.

326
00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:25.279
<v Speaker 1>A dominant male guerrilla controls access to a group of

327
00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:30.640
<v Speaker 1>females by directly defending his group, whereas an orangutan male

328
00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:35.359
<v Speaker 1>controls access to females in his neighborhood. By controlling the

329
00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:40.960
<v Speaker 1>real estate, he broadcasts his presence, his dominance, and essentially,

330
00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:45.640
<v Speaker 1>quote unquote defends a territory, or at least advertises his

331
00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:49.279
<v Speaker 1>presence in the territory. When the females are receptive, they

332
00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:53.519
<v Speaker 1>come looking for him for companionship. That's more likely, I think,

333
00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:57.039
<v Speaker 1>and it fits the anecdotal evidence too of visual encounters

334
00:19:57.079 --> 00:20:00.640
<v Speaker 1>and behavior of solitary individuals. We I have also some

335
00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:06.319
<v Speaker 1>indirect evidence that points to a large home range, probably

336
00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:09.759
<v Speaker 1>on the order of a thousand square miles, which isn't exceptional.

337
00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:12.880
<v Speaker 1>There are grizzly bears, for example, a male grizzly bear

338
00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:16.519
<v Speaker 1>can easily defend or a patrol an area of that size.

339
00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:20.640
<v Speaker 1>So then when you take other clues, like we know

340
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:27.720
<v Speaker 1>that there's quite an alignment with the bioclimatic factors associated

341
00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:32.839
<v Speaker 1>with sasquatch reports as well as with black bear distribution.

342
00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:36.039
<v Speaker 1>There's been a paper published that kind of shows that

343
00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:39.559
<v Speaker 1>remarkable parallel. So if we use that kind of as

344
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:41.799
<v Speaker 1>a rule of thumb and look at the areas where

345
00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:47.000
<v Speaker 1>black bear survive are found, the types of habitat variables

346
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:51.519
<v Speaker 1>they need they're a large omnivore. Sasquatch presumably the large

347
00:20:51.559 --> 00:20:54.960
<v Speaker 1>omnivore based on reports of the food items that they

348
00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:57.880
<v Speaker 1>take and heat about everything that isn't nailed down, it

349
00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:02.160
<v Speaker 1>seems with all that taken together, let's just take Idaho,

350
00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:07.079
<v Speaker 1>for example, how many home ranges of a dominant male

351
00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:10.880
<v Speaker 1>could you fit? How many thousand square mile plots would

352
00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:16.480
<v Speaker 1>fit in the areas of Idaho that support bear populations.

353
00:21:16.599 --> 00:21:19.599
<v Speaker 1>Others such as John Green, was one of the first

354
00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:24.359
<v Speaker 1>to point out a remarkable correlation between precipitation levels and

355
00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:28.200
<v Speaker 1>sasquatch reports that agrees well with bear as well. Again,

356
00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:31.960
<v Speaker 1>you have to have a habitat that's producing enough greens

357
00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:35.319
<v Speaker 1>forbes and so forth, as well as fruits and other

358
00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:38.599
<v Speaker 1>small mammals, and while not that they can feed upon.

359
00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:40.880
<v Speaker 1>You do that for Idaho, and you come up with

360
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:43.759
<v Speaker 1>about twelve or fifteen plots, just depending on how you

361
00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:48.279
<v Speaker 1>slice it. There's a lot of heterogeneity in the topography

362
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:51.759
<v Speaker 1>and in the patchiness of the forest, et cetera. And

363
00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:54.599
<v Speaker 1>each of those plots then represents you know, let's just

364
00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:59.200
<v Speaker 1>say five for easy maths, five times, let's say fifteen.

365
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:02.519
<v Speaker 1>It is seven five Sasquatch. A lot of people push

366
00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:05.079
<v Speaker 1>back to say, oh, that can't be, that's not enough.

367
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:08.000
<v Speaker 1>Let's just double it. Then still at one hundred and fifty.

368
00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:12.839
<v Speaker 1>Then compare that to thirty five thousand black bear in Idaho.

369
00:22:13.880 --> 00:22:18.119
<v Speaker 1>When you consider that thirty five thousand versus one hundred

370
00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:20.720
<v Speaker 1>and fifty or even three hundred will make it so

371
00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:24.440
<v Speaker 1>you can even compare orders of magnitude more easily. You

372
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:27.640
<v Speaker 1>start to realize how rare and how elusive these animals

373
00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:30.960
<v Speaker 1>really are, why we don't find bodies and bones, and

374
00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:35.960
<v Speaker 1>why encounters are so infrequent, The credible ones, the substantial ones.

375
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:42.640
<v Speaker 1>We have a proliferation of hopeful accounts of encounter, discoveries

376
00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:46.079
<v Speaker 1>of footprints, but the credible, solid, substantial ones are much

377
00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:48.720
<v Speaker 1>rarer and fewer between. So if you were to repeat

378
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:52.720
<v Speaker 1>that process across the other states, it's surprising even the

379
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:56.480
<v Speaker 1>state like Washington, half the state is staged for us

380
00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:01.200
<v Speaker 1>essentially like Idaho, like southern Idaho, and so until you

381
00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:04.920
<v Speaker 1>get to the cascade, so really the area is further

382
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:09.079
<v Speaker 1>restricted in Washington and Oregon. In northern California, go up

383
00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:11.759
<v Speaker 1>to British Columbia. British Columbia has one hundred and ten

384
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:16.599
<v Speaker 1>thousand black bear estimated, So there's a lot more terrain.

385
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:19.880
<v Speaker 1>Then you look at black bear distribution. If you look

386
00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:23.519
<v Speaker 1>at a map black bear range across North America, go

387
00:23:23.559 --> 00:23:27.119
<v Speaker 1>across the boreal forest down around the Great Lakes, down

388
00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:31.559
<v Speaker 1>New England and backside of Appalatia down hook up into

389
00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:34.519
<v Speaker 1>the four corners of Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma. In that

390
00:23:34.599 --> 00:23:38.799
<v Speaker 1>area there you've got it. Now. Of course back east though,

391
00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:41.880
<v Speaker 1>if you start looking at the black bear numbers as

392
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:46.000
<v Speaker 1>well as their distribution, you may have black bear distribution

393
00:23:46.119 --> 00:23:48.759
<v Speaker 1>through all those areas I talked about. I'll get it wrong,

394
00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:51.000
<v Speaker 1>and some will get me on this because I can't

395
00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:52.799
<v Speaker 1>keep them straight. I have to always look them up.

396
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.160
<v Speaker 1>But they're some of those southern states. South Carolina that

397
00:23:56.200 --> 00:23:59.920
<v Speaker 1>probably has about five thousand black bear, not thirty five thousand,

398
00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:03.240
<v Speaker 1>just five thousand. So that says even though there's some habitat,

399
00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:06.839
<v Speaker 1>it's rather restricted and it doesn't support a large population.

400
00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:12.279
<v Speaker 1>There's a much larger human population development. There's fewer large

401
00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:17.079
<v Speaker 1>tracts of uninterrorrupted, undisturbed habitat. So you put that all together,

402
00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:20.359
<v Speaker 1>what you come up with a couple of thousand, several

403
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:23.839
<v Speaker 1>thousand in Western United States and Canada, I would put

404
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:27.480
<v Speaker 1>it at two or three thousand. Then across Boreal Canada

405
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:30.599
<v Speaker 1>and down into eastern United States, I would put it

406
00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:31.960
<v Speaker 1>at maybe another thousand.

407
00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:35.680
<v Speaker 2>It's always fascinating to me that the naysayers, the folks

408
00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:38.480
<v Speaker 2>that don't think these things exist, that's the go to.

409
00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:41.680
<v Speaker 2>There's never been a body, There's never been real evidence

410
00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:45.119
<v Speaker 2>there has been live in North Carolina. We were hiking

411
00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:47.480
<v Speaker 2>a couple of winters ago and ran into a saw

412
00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:50.920
<v Speaker 2>and two cubs on our property. It's not a common occurrence,

413
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:53.200
<v Speaker 2>but that they're here. I go back to the Patterson

414
00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:55.680
<v Speaker 2>Gimlin film. I know you saw that as a child,

415
00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:58.440
<v Speaker 2>and you've had an opportunity now as an academic to

416
00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:00.559
<v Speaker 2>look back at that film. What do you think about

417
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:02.559
<v Speaker 2>the Patterson Gimblin film. Do you think it stood the

418
00:25:02.599 --> 00:25:03.319
<v Speaker 2>test of time?

419
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:05.480
<v Speaker 4>I do, Yeah, I do.

420
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:08.119
<v Speaker 1>I've said it before. I'm as confident as I could

421
00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:13.079
<v Speaker 1>be short of having stood there on the sandbar with

422
00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:17.039
<v Speaker 1>those fellows and observed it firsthand. If I had just

423
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:20.680
<v Speaker 1>the footprints to go by, I would be convinced in

424
00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:24.519
<v Speaker 1>the credibility of that claim. To have the footprints the

425
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:27.559
<v Speaker 1>film and all the anatomy that goes with it, and

426
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:31.319
<v Speaker 1>the kinematics of locomotion. One of the things that most

427
00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:35.839
<v Speaker 1>impressive to me, a theme that I have emphasized in

428
00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:39.279
<v Speaker 1>concert with the fiftieth anniversary and since, is the fact

429
00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:42.160
<v Speaker 1>that you have to continually remind yourself. This was shot

430
00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:46.400
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen sixty seven, and based on what was conventional

431
00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:50.880
<v Speaker 1>wisdom and anthropology in nineteen sixty seven, that creature couldn't exist.

432
00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:55.920
<v Speaker 1>There was no accommodation, There was no context or place

433
00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:00.359
<v Speaker 1>to allow for the existence of another bipedal hominin. That

434
00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:04.039
<v Speaker 1>was counter to the accepted paradigm, the notion that the

435
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:06.720
<v Speaker 1>hominin niche was so particular and specific there could be

436
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.240
<v Speaker 1>only one species in it for the old ecological axiom

437
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:14.559
<v Speaker 1>one niche, one species, and so we were it. We

438
00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:19.160
<v Speaker 1>were the principal species in that niche. So now we

439
00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:23.160
<v Speaker 1>know that that was hogwash, That was ridiculous, very egocentric

440
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:26.200
<v Speaker 1>even to consider that. Really, we know that the hominin

441
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:29.720
<v Speaker 1>family tree was very bushy, it wasn't very limited and

442
00:26:29.799 --> 00:26:33.559
<v Speaker 1>restricted in membership, and that many of those branches on

443
00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:37.000
<v Speaker 1>that bushy tree have persisted alongside us until more recently

444
00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:40.200
<v Speaker 1>than anyone would have guessed fifty years ago. The story

445
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:43.519
<v Speaker 1>that I repeat often it is my favorite example of

446
00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:47.519
<v Speaker 1>that context was John Napier, who was one of the

447
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:50.759
<v Speaker 1>first to view the film from the scientific community in

448
00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:54.759
<v Speaker 1>the Smithsonian. He was impressed enough to write a book

449
00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:59.160
<v Speaker 1>about the subject matter. Although on the topic of them

450
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:02.799
<v Speaker 1>film he came down on the naysayer side, but he

451
00:27:02.920 --> 00:27:08.119
<v Speaker 1>had troubled defending that position and justified it ultimately by

452
00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:11.599
<v Speaker 1>saying that when he looked at the figure, he said,

453
00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:13.200
<v Speaker 1>from the waist up, it looked like an ape, but

454
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:15.839
<v Speaker 1>from the waist down it looks like a human. He said,

455
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:19.119
<v Speaker 1>it's inconceivable that such a hybrid would exist in nature,

456
00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:22.640
<v Speaker 1>so it must be false. That book came out in

457
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:26.359
<v Speaker 1>seventy two. Shortly thereafter, within the few years in the

458
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:31.400
<v Speaker 1>mid to late seventies, more fossils of Austrolopithecus afarensus were discovered,

459
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:35.640
<v Speaker 1>particularly the postcrania, the pelvis, the knee, the ankle, and

460
00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:39.200
<v Speaker 1>so forth. It was very clear that they had a

461
00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:42.039
<v Speaker 1>lower extremity that showed many of the hallmarks of modern

462
00:27:42.119 --> 00:27:47.160
<v Speaker 1>human bipedalism. But in a little, small package. How is

463
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:50.400
<v Speaker 1>it that little package described to the popular press. From

464
00:27:50.440 --> 00:27:52.640
<v Speaker 1>the waist up, it looks just like a chimpanzee. From

465
00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:54.640
<v Speaker 1>the waist down, it looks like a short, hairy human.

466
00:27:55.319 --> 00:28:00.920
<v Speaker 1>Isn't it curious how nature has combined expect a combination

467
00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:04.359
<v Speaker 1>of traits. That was the lynch pin. That was the

468
00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:08.319
<v Speaker 1>sticking point for Napier in accepting the credibility of the film.

469
00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:10.920
<v Speaker 1>That was the only thing he could settle on to

470
00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:15.559
<v Speaker 1>justify his irrational premise because it was because it was

471
00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:18.559
<v Speaker 1>based on a false premise that there could be only

472
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:21.799
<v Speaker 1>one species, and the experts at the time tried to

473
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:24.480
<v Speaker 1>justify their rejection of the film by saying some really

474
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:28.400
<v Speaker 1>funky things, some really silly things about the way the

475
00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:31.720
<v Speaker 1>creature walked, if they had hair on its breasts, etc.

476
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:36.000
<v Speaker 1>That were just in twenty twenty hindsight, are embarrassing that

477
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:41.519
<v Speaker 1>these experts did not understand the most fundamental principles about

478
00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:42.960
<v Speaker 1>anatomy and locomotion.

479
00:28:43.319 --> 00:28:46.240
<v Speaker 2>It makes you wonder if Napier had been introduced to Lucy,

480
00:28:46.279 --> 00:28:48.079
<v Speaker 2>maybe he might have had a different opinion on the

481
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:49.480
<v Speaker 2>film exactly.

482
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:51.640
<v Speaker 1>That's usually my follow up. What if he'd waited just

483
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:53.480
<v Speaker 1>a couple of years, or if the writing the book

484
00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:55.920
<v Speaker 1>took a couple of years longer, in other words, and

485
00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:58.519
<v Speaker 1>it overlapped the discovery of Lucy. Would he have had

486
00:28:58.519 --> 00:29:01.680
<v Speaker 1>a different opinion of the film when you've spoken out

487
00:29:01.720 --> 00:29:04.160
<v Speaker 1>more positively about it? As it was, he came down

488
00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:09.359
<v Speaker 1>positively on the potential existence of sasquatch based on the footprints.

489
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:11.759
<v Speaker 1>It was the footprint evidence that really drove it home

490
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:15.680
<v Speaker 1>for him. But he got a few points wrong in

491
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:18.279
<v Speaker 1>that arena as well. But I think that was just

492
00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:20.960
<v Speaker 1>because he was working with a very limited sample, and

493
00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:26.680
<v Speaker 1>therefore differences between individuals seemed more start more distinctive than

494
00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:30.839
<v Speaker 1>they really were. With three hundred footprint casts instead of

495
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:35.599
<v Speaker 1>a dozen, you can see the continuum of variation amongst

496
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:36.319
<v Speaker 1>the population.

497
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:39.599
<v Speaker 2>I interviewed so many people, and we've had conversations about

498
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:42.720
<v Speaker 2>the evidence. I think the Patterson Gimlin film did a

499
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:45.519
<v Speaker 2>couple of things. It clearly put the subject on the map,

500
00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:50.200
<v Speaker 2>but it's such such a high bar for anything that

501
00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:54.960
<v Speaker 2>came after. We've got blob squatch or we've got footprint evidence. Sure,

502
00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:58.079
<v Speaker 2>but that's just not enough. I just don't know where

503
00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:00.680
<v Speaker 2>we go from here. It's so frustrated to me that

504
00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:04.240
<v Speaker 2>without the body or without the absolute proof you do

505
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:06.680
<v Speaker 2>have hoaxers. That leads me into my next question. I

506
00:30:06.759 --> 00:30:10.200
<v Speaker 2>know you've seen enough tracks and you've seen enough cast

507
00:30:10.839 --> 00:30:13.319
<v Speaker 2>what do you look for and how do you go

508
00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:17.839
<v Speaker 2>about proving that a track is in fact from a

509
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:19.759
<v Speaker 2>sasquatch or a hoax.

510
00:30:20.119 --> 00:30:23.799
<v Speaker 1>The hoaxes seem to be few and far between. There

511
00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:27.319
<v Speaker 1>have been some dramatic example. There was a flap of

512
00:30:28.039 --> 00:30:31.279
<v Speaker 1>hoaxers who were taking advantage of the droughts and the

513
00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:36.440
<v Speaker 1>drawn down reservoirs because they seem to like those mudflats

514
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:40.480
<v Speaker 1>that were easy to put on stompers and go trapsing

515
00:30:40.519 --> 00:30:43.799
<v Speaker 1>across large tracts of land. We had one here in

516
00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:47.279
<v Speaker 1>Idaho as well, the ones that cliffs examined down in

517
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:50.359
<v Speaker 1>Oregon that Derek Randall's and a few other people were

518
00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:52.640
<v Speaker 1>involved with. Like I said, those are few and far between,

519
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:56.440
<v Speaker 1>but by far the more common distraction that I have

520
00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:59.799
<v Speaker 1>to sit through. The chaff thats sit through are just misidentifications.

521
00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:02.519
<v Speaker 1>A lot of those are human. There are a lot

522
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:05.160
<v Speaker 1>of people who get caught up and they like to

523
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:08.759
<v Speaker 1>go out to places where modern day humans walk around

524
00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:11.319
<v Speaker 1>barefoot in the mud. For whatever reason, it feels nice

525
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:14.200
<v Speaker 1>and cool, squishing up between your toes or whatever. Even

526
00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:19.279
<v Speaker 1>in sometimes inexplicable areas where you might not walk barefoot,

527
00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:21.960
<v Speaker 1>there are people who do. And there are some hallmarks

528
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:26.480
<v Speaker 1>of the human foot, namely the arch, the differentiated ball,

529
00:31:27.079 --> 00:31:31.799
<v Speaker 1>the proportions of the toepads, the narrow heel breadth to

530
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:36.000
<v Speaker 1>length ratios that are just unmistakable. There are signs of

531
00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:40.519
<v Speaker 1>shoe wear that are unmistakable in the compressed toe positions.

532
00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:43.720
<v Speaker 1>Especially the little toe is subject to getting squished in

533
00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:47.400
<v Speaker 1>and sometimes turned completely on its side, even when the shoes.

534
00:31:47.559 --> 00:31:51.640
<v Speaker 1>Often walking around barefoot and mud still shows up. It's

535
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:56.039
<v Speaker 1>pretty straightforward to point those out. I tell people circumstances

536
00:31:56.519 --> 00:32:00.119
<v Speaker 1>taking into account are considered. If it walks like a

537
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:02.400
<v Speaker 1>duck and e quects like a duck, it's a duck.

538
00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:04.839
<v Speaker 1>If I can't differentiate this from a human track, I

539
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:07.319
<v Speaker 1>don't care. If you found it on the moon, it

540
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:10.839
<v Speaker 1>still would be a human footprint based on the criteria.

541
00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:15.079
<v Speaker 1>Unless we have juvenile sasquatch, they're going through a phase

542
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:18.519
<v Speaker 1>where they mimic human footprints. I guess we could come

543
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:22.599
<v Speaker 1>the conspiracy to explain that, but I can't envision any

544
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:26.279
<v Speaker 1>natural process by which a sasquatch would go from. And

545
00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:30.880
<v Speaker 1>we have little sasquatch feet, baby infants, juveniles, they look

546
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:35.599
<v Speaker 1>like little broad flat footed displayed toed sasquatch. Why they

547
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:39.839
<v Speaker 1>would go from that to a holy human looking appearance

548
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:42.720
<v Speaker 1>and then broadened back out and flatten the arch again

549
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:45.839
<v Speaker 1>as adults. Just doesn't make any sense to me. So

550
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:46.839
<v Speaker 1>that's the big thing.

551
00:32:48.200 --> 00:32:50.599
<v Speaker 2>And stay tuned for more sasquatch out to see. We'll

552
00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:52.480
<v Speaker 2>be right back after these messages.

553
00:32:56.759 --> 00:32:59.599
<v Speaker 1>Then right on its heels. As you talked about blob squatches,

554
00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:02.799
<v Speaker 1>we should come up with another term for ambiguous footprints,

555
00:33:02.839 --> 00:33:06.880
<v Speaker 1>because people see tracks that are old, or they're even tracks,

556
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:11.799
<v Speaker 1>see features that resemble a footprint. I get lots of

557
00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:16.000
<v Speaker 1>images of erosional artifacts that there's no sign of an impression,

558
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:20.559
<v Speaker 1>no sign of compression of soil or compression of those

559
00:33:20.599 --> 00:33:24.920
<v Speaker 1>pebbles and stones beneath the foot, but rather they're just

560
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:28.680
<v Speaker 1>washed out. Sometimes it's just an outline from a pile

561
00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:31.880
<v Speaker 1>of pine needles that get washed into a ridge and

562
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:35.839
<v Speaker 1>that strikes a somewhat oval looking appearance in a bare

563
00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:39.160
<v Speaker 1>spot of dirt and becomes a footprint. And then of

564
00:33:39.160 --> 00:33:43.319
<v Speaker 1>course the common animal track that is sometimes mistaken for

565
00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:47.319
<v Speaker 1>sasquashed because of its distinctive toepads. Is a bear, the

566
00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:51.440
<v Speaker 1>hind foot does have an elongated heel pad usually comes

567
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:53.720
<v Speaker 1>to a taper unless it's a very big bear, and

568
00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:56.960
<v Speaker 1>fills out and rounds out as the weight gets pushed

569
00:33:56.960 --> 00:34:01.279
<v Speaker 1>down on that heel bone the calcaneus. So basically in

570
00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:04.480
<v Speaker 1>enumerting those things, I've pointed out some of the distinctions.

571
00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:07.839
<v Speaker 1>When we talk about a sasquatch footprint, if it's an adult,

572
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:13.639
<v Speaker 1>it's a big, broad, flat footed, flexible mid footed print

573
00:34:13.880 --> 00:34:19.480
<v Speaker 1>with large toe relative size of the toes and toepads

574
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:23.079
<v Speaker 1>that tend to be a little more similar in size.

575
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:26.239
<v Speaker 1>Not al was not completely and Grover drew attention to

576
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:28.400
<v Speaker 1>where there's a little bit of variation in that. But

577
00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:31.559
<v Speaker 1>compared to a human where the lateral toes are like

578
00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:35.400
<v Speaker 1>little grapes, compared to this big plum of a big toepad,

579
00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:39.719
<v Speaker 1>the distinction is quite visible and can be appreciated. There

580
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:43.239
<v Speaker 1>should be a big, broad heel. Sometimes one of the

581
00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:46.960
<v Speaker 1>tells of a fake foot is an existing footprint might

582
00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:53.320
<v Speaker 1>be extended and flared to make it broader across the forefoot,

583
00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:57.079
<v Speaker 1>but sometimes they inexplicably leave this little narrow heel. It

584
00:34:57.079 --> 00:35:00.559
<v Speaker 1>makes it look like a swim fin, and that's obviously

585
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:06.000
<v Speaker 1>very un likely unnatural. It's the big broad heel pad

586
00:35:06.039 --> 00:35:09.760
<v Speaker 1>that is one of the principal weight distributors of this

587
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:13.639
<v Speaker 1>massive animal, an animal that say, given patty size that

588
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:16.719
<v Speaker 1>could weigh anywhere from seven hundred eight hundred pounds, a

589
00:35:16.760 --> 00:35:18.280
<v Speaker 1>big eight and a half foot in male is going

590
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:21.079
<v Speaker 1>to be twelve hundred pounds the side of a moose.

591
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:24.639
<v Speaker 2>What is your opinion on the DNA evidence, doctor Meldrum.

592
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:27.239
<v Speaker 2>There's been some studies out there, There's been tons of

593
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:31.599
<v Speaker 2>DNA evidence, there's environmental DNA. Is DNA evidence enough? What's

594
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:34.599
<v Speaker 2>your opinion on what's been collected? The samples coming back

595
00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:35.960
<v Speaker 2>with mixed reviews.

596
00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:38.400
<v Speaker 1>Whether it's enough or not will be a bit of

597
00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:40.920
<v Speaker 1>a test case, because to my knowledge, there is no

598
00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:46.360
<v Speaker 1>precedent for acknowledging a novel species, not differentiating between two

599
00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:51.079
<v Speaker 1>closely related species for which skulls and skins exist in

600
00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:55.599
<v Speaker 1>museum drawers, but a novel species on the basis of

601
00:35:55.679 --> 00:35:58.760
<v Speaker 1>DNA alone. Now there's more and more debate that we

602
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:04.039
<v Speaker 1>should knowledge the existence of a potential novel species on

603
00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:08.559
<v Speaker 1>that basis rather than requiring the lethal collection of a specimen,

604
00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:11.960
<v Speaker 1>especially when it's a rare and endangered species, where the

605
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.639
<v Speaker 1>impact of the collection of a specimen itself could be catastrophic.

606
00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:20.920
<v Speaker 1>That said, to my knowledge, there is no DNA evidence yet,

607
00:36:21.039 --> 00:36:27.320
<v Speaker 1>at least not recognized or useful claims to the contrary. Notwithstanding,

608
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:31.239
<v Speaker 1>I don't think those claims have any merit. The situation

609
00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:36.440
<v Speaker 1>I think that we're in is the DNA of the

610
00:36:36.679 --> 00:36:39.639
<v Speaker 1>squatch is probably very similar to US. I don't put

611
00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:42.400
<v Speaker 1>any stock in the claims of hybridization. I think there

612
00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:45.559
<v Speaker 1>have been good reviews written of that data and that

613
00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:50.119
<v Speaker 1>evidence that refuted resoundingly. The thing that we're up against

614
00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:53.599
<v Speaker 1>is a creature that is probably very closely related to us,

615
00:36:53.639 --> 00:36:57.800
<v Speaker 1>and therefore may only differ in a percentage point or

616
00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:03.480
<v Speaker 1>less in the total sequence. As such, to make it

617
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:05.960
<v Speaker 1>short and sweet, this makes the example I think very

618
00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:10.079
<v Speaker 1>graspable for your listeners, and that is, imagine you had

619
00:37:10.119 --> 00:37:13.119
<v Speaker 1>an advance calendar, and a most an advanced calendar have

620
00:37:13.480 --> 00:37:17.320
<v Speaker 1>twenty four windows leading up to Christmas. You open up

621
00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:20.079
<v Speaker 1>the little door or a little window pane, and you

622
00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:23.039
<v Speaker 1>get the treat right. Well, imagine you had an advanced

623
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:27.519
<v Speaker 1>calendar that had one hundred windows. So of course that

624
00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:30.760
<v Speaker 1>one percent difference isn't necessarily going to be behind just

625
00:37:30.920 --> 00:37:34.639
<v Speaker 1>one window. But for the sake of our illustration, we

626
00:37:34.679 --> 00:37:37.880
<v Speaker 1>could make thousand windows and spread that one percent into

627
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:40.480
<v Speaker 1>ten different windows. Let's just make it simple. One hundred

628
00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:44.159
<v Speaker 1>windows and behind one window is the golden ticket. There's

629
00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:48.119
<v Speaker 1>the sequence that has the marker that distinguishes humans from sasquatch.

630
00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:49.960
<v Speaker 1>In most of the studies that have been done so

631
00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:55.760
<v Speaker 1>far that haven't had other unfortunate complications to cloud their credibility,

632
00:37:55.880 --> 00:38:00.480
<v Speaker 1>they've been rather superficial. Imagine that you have a study

633
00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:04.760
<v Speaker 1>with funding that only permits you to open up ten doors,

634
00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:08.000
<v Speaker 1>ten of the hundred. So what are the odds that

635
00:38:08.039 --> 00:38:11.880
<v Speaker 1>the ten that you open are going to include the

636
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:14.800
<v Speaker 1>one door out of one hundred that as that marker

637
00:38:14.840 --> 00:38:18.679
<v Speaker 1>in it? And if you don't find that marker, what's

638
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:21.760
<v Speaker 1>the conclusion you're going to draw Everything you look at

639
00:38:21.800 --> 00:38:25.559
<v Speaker 1>will be exactly identical to modern human So we've had

640
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:30.880
<v Speaker 1>two possibilities presented. It's either contaminated through mishandling, or it

641
00:38:30.920 --> 00:38:33.679
<v Speaker 1>has been just misidentified that it's just simply a human

642
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:38.639
<v Speaker 1>hair for example, or whatever. Tissue. The third possibility is

643
00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:42.119
<v Speaker 1>what I've just described, that you just haven't tested enough

644
00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:45.119
<v Speaker 1>to come to a definitive conclusion one way or the other.

645
00:38:45.639 --> 00:38:49.320
<v Speaker 1>So the jury should still be out rather than pronounced that, oh,

646
00:38:49.400 --> 00:38:52.199
<v Speaker 1>it's just human. So that's more unfortunately where I think

647
00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:54.960
<v Speaker 1>we're at. So it means we need to have good samples,

648
00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:57.400
<v Speaker 1>but we also need to have the wherewithal the funding

649
00:38:57.800 --> 00:39:00.199
<v Speaker 1>and someone who's willing to put in the time. I'm

650
00:39:00.199 --> 00:39:03.280
<v Speaker 1>an effort because it will become a more involved process

651
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:08.280
<v Speaker 1>to do a genomic test that is exhaustive enough to

652
00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:11.880
<v Speaker 1>be sure that you have found those particular markers.

653
00:39:12.119 --> 00:39:15.039
<v Speaker 2>It was a brilliant analogy because I hear that often

654
00:39:15.079 --> 00:39:18.000
<v Speaker 2>from people there's DNA that should prove it. It's not

655
00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:21.639
<v Speaker 2>that simple if you follow the scientific method. That's the

656
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:24.239
<v Speaker 2>reason that I love what you do so much is

657
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:26.719
<v Speaker 2>because you look at it from that lens. Because people

658
00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:30.159
<v Speaker 2>get frustrated, and I understand the frustration. But there is

659
00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:33.320
<v Speaker 2>a process that has to be followed. It's not just

660
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:35.280
<v Speaker 2>as simple as I think it exists.

661
00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:37.719
<v Speaker 1>Therefire does to make it very clear, because sometimes I

662
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:40.960
<v Speaker 1>get to this criticism leveled at me that I'm trying

663
00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:44.440
<v Speaker 1>to convince people on the basis of the evidence at

664
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:47.880
<v Speaker 1>hand that Bigfoot exists. It may appear to some people

665
00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:51.199
<v Speaker 1>who don't understand, as you mentioned a scientific method as

666
00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:53.119
<v Speaker 1>it is, that I'm trying to do that. But what

667
00:39:53.159 --> 00:39:55.079
<v Speaker 1>I'm doing is I'm simply just trying to make a

668
00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:58.719
<v Speaker 1>case that, hey, this is interesting evidence that points to

669
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:03.960
<v Speaker 1>a possible hypothesis that needs further testing. No, I'm not

670
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:07.960
<v Speaker 1>trying to convince. I understand fully that it requires at

671
00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:12.360
<v Speaker 1>the very least DNA sequence, a novel sequence, or perhaps

672
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:14.800
<v Speaker 1>at least part of a body or a specimen.

673
00:40:16.039 --> 00:40:18.079
<v Speaker 2>I want to shift gears. Your time is valuable, and

674
00:40:18.119 --> 00:40:19.920
<v Speaker 2>I want to get these questions in. I want to

675
00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:22.639
<v Speaker 2>go back to when you got into this subject back

676
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:26.400
<v Speaker 2>in the nineties, your expectations going into this. I want

677
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:28.559
<v Speaker 2>to talk a little bit about any of the backlash

678
00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:33.400
<v Speaker 2>from the academic community. What has been the repercussions, if any,

679
00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:37.079
<v Speaker 2>for your pursuit of this through your academic career.

680
00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:42.320
<v Speaker 1>I was idealistic enough to think that if one comported

681
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:46.920
<v Speaker 1>one's self as a scientist and pursuit a question objectively,

682
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:50.400
<v Speaker 1>that it would be whereby acknowledged that a worthy undertaking.

683
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:55.199
<v Speaker 1>Boy was I surprised by what actually transpired. The community

684
00:40:55.239 --> 00:40:59.360
<v Speaker 1>of scientists is plagued by the foibles of human nature,

685
00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:04.039
<v Speaker 1>just like any other community of people. Politics, personalities, prejudice,

686
00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:07.280
<v Speaker 1>and preconception are rampants, and there are some people who

687
00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:12.079
<v Speaker 1>seem to thrive on trying to denigrate or put down

688
00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:15.519
<v Speaker 1>other people. Or maybe they're more genuine or sincere in

689
00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:21.400
<v Speaker 1>their efforts. They are laboring under preconceptions or existing paradigms

690
00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:23.639
<v Speaker 1>that don't allow for As I alluded to with the

691
00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:27.400
<v Speaker 1>Patterson Gimblet film, I've had people say they can't exist,

692
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:30.719
<v Speaker 1>therefore they don't exist, and it doesn't matter what evidence

693
00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:33.239
<v Speaker 1>you think you have. No one and I say that again,

694
00:41:33.880 --> 00:41:38.599
<v Speaker 1>no one can defend the idea that they can't exist,

695
00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:42.440
<v Speaker 1>that there isn't a context for them, like something like

696
00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:46.760
<v Speaker 1>the single species hypothesis that proposes only one species of

697
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:51.320
<v Speaker 1>hominin can exist at a time. That's bocum. Now that

698
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:53.559
<v Speaker 1>can be thrown out, So you can't defend that. So

699
00:41:53.559 --> 00:41:56.599
<v Speaker 1>we're left with the second side of that coin, the

700
00:41:56.599 --> 00:42:00.000
<v Speaker 1>other side of that coin, which is what's the probability

701
00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:04.199
<v Speaker 1>they do exist? They certainly can, but is the evidence

702
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:10.199
<v Speaker 1>persuasive that they do is the context sufficient for them

703
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:16.400
<v Speaker 1>both scientifically, theoretically and pragmatically. Under that umbrella comes the questions,

704
00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:21.840
<v Speaker 1>the objections about the bodies, about reproducing populations sufficient numbers

705
00:42:21.880 --> 00:42:27.559
<v Speaker 1>that a viable population can they elude our search if

706
00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:32.280
<v Speaker 1>you're honest with yourself about it, and you're informed about

707
00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:37.360
<v Speaker 1>the circumstances and the context, and you acknowledge what evidence

708
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:41.400
<v Speaker 1>we have that points to, for example, our discussion of

709
00:42:41.480 --> 00:42:46.280
<v Speaker 1>the population size. When you think about how rare and

710
00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:52.440
<v Speaker 1>elusive even black bear are, relatively speaking, and yet there

711
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:57.519
<v Speaker 1>are hundreds of black bear for everyone's sasquatch. Potentially if

712
00:42:57.559 --> 00:43:02.079
<v Speaker 1>my inference, my inference model is anywhere in the ballpark

713
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:04.719
<v Speaker 1>as far as the absolute numbers, and I think that's

714
00:43:04.760 --> 00:43:08.719
<v Speaker 1>reasonable given the other aspects. We can also couch our

715
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:14.440
<v Speaker 1>conversations or our inferences in terms of the bracketing variability

716
00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:19.440
<v Speaker 1>evident in the known grade apes, while acknowledging that shouldn't

717
00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:24.360
<v Speaker 1>be taken as an entirely limiting bracket because our knowledge

718
00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:29.639
<v Speaker 1>of apes is restricted to just a handful of species

719
00:43:30.079 --> 00:43:33.440
<v Speaker 1>that are themselves just the tip of the iceberg of

720
00:43:33.880 --> 00:43:37.039
<v Speaker 1>the variation that existed through the Miocene into the Plioceine

721
00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:40.519
<v Speaker 1>for grade apes, hundreds of species with all types of

722
00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:46.719
<v Speaker 1>locomotive adaptations and dietary variation and habitat preferences, of which

723
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:51.159
<v Speaker 1>these existing species are just relic populations in the tropical

724
00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:54.840
<v Speaker 1>refugea even there, as I said earlier about their social structure,

725
00:43:55.320 --> 00:43:57.800
<v Speaker 1>every living species of grade ape has a different social

726
00:43:57.800 --> 00:44:01.599
<v Speaker 1>structure than the other just about significant. So anyway, when

727
00:44:01.639 --> 00:44:04.360
<v Speaker 1>you take all those factors into account, a lot of

728
00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:08.800
<v Speaker 1>these objections pale. They melt away in the light of

729
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:10.519
<v Speaker 1>some informed conversation.

730
00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:13.280
<v Speaker 2>Just a couple of questions from some of the fans

731
00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:15.239
<v Speaker 2>of the show. We talked a little bit about the

732
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:20.119
<v Speaker 2>academic community, But the question from the listener is are

733
00:44:20.119 --> 00:44:23.039
<v Speaker 2>there any other academic colleagues that are willing to step

734
00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:26.159
<v Speaker 2>up and support this type of research, particularly after the

735
00:44:26.199 --> 00:44:28.960
<v Speaker 2>passing of doctor John Bender. Nigel.

736
00:44:29.519 --> 00:44:35.360
<v Speaker 1>Certainly there are, and I have conversations dialogue with people academics,

737
00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:40.079
<v Speaker 1>not just anthropologists or anatomists, but to other persuasions other

738
00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:45.599
<v Speaker 1>disciplines of science on a regular basis, as well as

739
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:50.880
<v Speaker 1>agency personnel, fish and wildlife and forest service. Behind the scenes,

740
00:44:51.039 --> 00:44:53.840
<v Speaker 1>none of them are really in a position to undertake

741
00:44:54.039 --> 00:44:57.719
<v Speaker 1>things on a more pragmatic and visible public basis, but

742
00:44:57.800 --> 00:45:00.400
<v Speaker 1>some of them do support the effort into terms of

743
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:06.039
<v Speaker 1>reviewing manuscripts, my online journal, my referee Journal, the RelA

744
00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:10.559
<v Speaker 1>Commoid Inquiry. I'm just in the process of reorganizing the

745
00:45:11.039 --> 00:45:13.480
<v Speaker 1>editorial board because we've had a couple of passings like

746
00:45:13.559 --> 00:45:18.320
<v Speaker 1>doctor bindernegl you mentioned, but also because of competing those

747
00:45:18.360 --> 00:45:20.280
<v Speaker 1>that have been there. We're in our tenth year now,

748
00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:24.360
<v Speaker 1>so they've served for a decade. So I'm rearranging, refreshing things,

749
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:27.599
<v Speaker 1>and giving other people a chance to participate in helping

750
00:45:27.639 --> 00:45:33.119
<v Speaker 1>with reviews, recruitment, editorials and commentaries they work with. Doctor

751
00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:37.000
<v Speaker 1>George Chalier is an honorary member of the editorial Board

752
00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:41.119
<v Speaker 1>of the journal and lends his support in that way

753
00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:45.280
<v Speaker 1>by association. And of course my book carries the endorsement

754
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:49.360
<v Speaker 1>of doctor Jane Goodall on the cover. She's been supportive

755
00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:52.599
<v Speaker 1>in her own way whenever the opportunity presents itself. Yeah,

756
00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:56.119
<v Speaker 1>there are other academics that are quite interesting, and there's

757
00:45:56.119 --> 00:45:59.599
<v Speaker 1>a new generation. That's what's exciting is I've had some

758
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:06.280
<v Speaker 1>exams recently of fresh PhDs who expressed their absolute enthusiasm

759
00:46:06.280 --> 00:46:09.559
<v Speaker 1>and interest for this subject. But because the old guards

760
00:46:09.639 --> 00:46:14.719
<v Speaker 1>the shift of paradigms is a glacial process. Thomas Kuhne

761
00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:18.360
<v Speaker 1>actually said, who is the one who coined the term

762
00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:22.639
<v Speaker 1>paradigm shifts? Said, sometimes it takes the entire generation for

763
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:26.519
<v Speaker 1>the old guard to pass, literally die off, in order

764
00:46:26.559 --> 00:46:29.599
<v Speaker 1>to clear the way for new ideas to take root

765
00:46:29.719 --> 00:46:33.119
<v Speaker 1>and flourish.

766
00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:34.519
<v Speaker 2>And stay tuned for more sasquat chatsy. We'll be right

767
00:46:34.599 --> 00:46:36.079
<v Speaker 2>back after these messages.

768
00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:44.519
<v Speaker 1>So I suspect it's another decade before this new generation

769
00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:48.599
<v Speaker 1>has tenure, because right now it's the old guard still,

770
00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:52.880
<v Speaker 1>even though there have been changes, the shadow, the mindset,

771
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:57.440
<v Speaker 1>the early training of these people. They're the department chairmen

772
00:46:57.559 --> 00:47:02.960
<v Speaker 1>and college deans. They're the diety presidents and the symposia organizers.

773
00:47:03.199 --> 00:47:06.960
<v Speaker 1>They're the gatekeepers. I experience it when I submit an

774
00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:10.760
<v Speaker 1>abstract for the professional meetings on this topic. It has

775
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:13.559
<v Speaker 1>about a fifty to fifty chance. So far is the

776
00:47:13.719 --> 00:47:17.519
<v Speaker 1>track record. A lot of it is simply the luck

777
00:47:17.559 --> 00:47:20.480
<v Speaker 1>of the draw as to who the two people who

778
00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:24.320
<v Speaker 1>were tapped. So two people, essentially, two people wield the

779
00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:28.679
<v Speaker 1>power of whether you can discuss your subject matter at

780
00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:32.639
<v Speaker 1>a national meeting or not. There's something wrong with that system.

781
00:47:32.679 --> 00:47:35.639
<v Speaker 1>Isn't there absolute, especially when there's no appeals process.

782
00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:38.679
<v Speaker 2>But it is great to hear from somebody like you

783
00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:41.360
<v Speaker 2>that there are these fresh faces coming up that are

784
00:47:41.400 --> 00:47:44.280
<v Speaker 2>interested and are willing to pick up the torch and

785
00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:47.199
<v Speaker 2>continue the journey. That's great to hear. One of the

786
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:50.239
<v Speaker 2>other questions was when and what was your aha moment

787
00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:54.079
<v Speaker 2>that a living being made the tracks that you were

788
00:47:54.159 --> 00:47:56.239
<v Speaker 2>either looking at or examining.

789
00:47:56.599 --> 00:48:00.679
<v Speaker 1>When I was there in southeastern Washington nineteen ninety looking

790
00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:02.599
<v Speaker 1>at these tracks that Paul Fraeman to take me out

791
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:05.880
<v Speaker 1>shown me, I'm taking it all in. I'm taking note

792
00:48:05.960 --> 00:48:10.320
<v Speaker 1>of all the dynamic features. I'm taking note of the

793
00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:15.199
<v Speaker 1>pressure ridges, the tension cracks from compression, the toes slipping,

794
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:19.360
<v Speaker 1>the toes gripping, dramaticglyphics. It did. It just hit me.

795
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:23.760
<v Speaker 1>There was that realization that a sasquatch actually walked by

796
00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:26.639
<v Speaker 1>here just literally hours ago and the wee hours of

797
00:48:26.679 --> 00:48:30.519
<v Speaker 1>the morning, probably late on the previous night. Literally the hair

798
00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:33.000
<v Speaker 1>stood up on the back of my neck. Because it's

799
00:48:33.039 --> 00:48:37.480
<v Speaker 1>an interesting sensation. I've had something similar in an academic

800
00:48:37.559 --> 00:48:41.039
<v Speaker 1>context limited to that, but like, for example, the first

801
00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:43.079
<v Speaker 1>time when I was a brand new gradu student going

802
00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:45.960
<v Speaker 1>out to Long Island to start my graduate program in

803
00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:49.519
<v Speaker 1>the American Museum of Natural History was holding their Ancestors exhibit,

804
00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:52.800
<v Speaker 1>where they had brought for the first time in many instances,

805
00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:57.199
<v Speaker 1>all these original hominin fossils from all over the world,

806
00:48:57.599 --> 00:49:00.239
<v Speaker 1>and they were on exhibit. You set there, look looking

807
00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:05.199
<v Speaker 1>through this bulletproof plexiglass case at this skull into these

808
00:49:05.239 --> 00:49:10.760
<v Speaker 1>empty orbits, and realized that was a creature alive three

809
00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:14.920
<v Speaker 1>million years ago that was on our family tree. It

810
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:18.199
<v Speaker 1>could have been a direct ancestor for all we know that.

811
00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:22.199
<v Speaker 1>There's an interesting sensation when that realization. You're not just

812
00:49:22.239 --> 00:49:25.039
<v Speaker 1>looking at a rock or an interesting bone, but you're

813
00:49:25.079 --> 00:49:28.719
<v Speaker 1>looking at the fossil of a hominin now extinct. The

814
00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:30.840
<v Speaker 1>only other time I had that experience, I think, was

815
00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:34.320
<v Speaker 1>when the first time I went panting for gold in

816
00:49:34.360 --> 00:49:37.679
<v Speaker 1>the Sacramento Valley in the mountains outside of Sacramento. And

817
00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:40.800
<v Speaker 1>when you swirl that around in that little nugget, that

818
00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:43.840
<v Speaker 1>little fleck of gold glints in the light, it's uha.

819
00:49:44.199 --> 00:49:45.239
<v Speaker 1>It really does bite you.

820
00:49:46.519 --> 00:49:49.800
<v Speaker 2>I think Sasquatch has that effect on just about everybody

821
00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:51.679
<v Speaker 2>who has some sort of an encounter, whether it's a

822
00:49:51.760 --> 00:49:55.320
<v Speaker 2>vocalization or an actual sighting, it just takes hold. It

823
00:49:55.400 --> 00:49:58.719
<v Speaker 2>becomes almost an obsession. Last question, I'm in a lot

824
00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:01.320
<v Speaker 2>of Facebook groups. Obviously I get in these groups. I

825
00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:03.519
<v Speaker 2>talk to people about their encounters and I have them

826
00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:05.239
<v Speaker 2>on the show. And one of the big things in

827
00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:07.360
<v Speaker 2>most of these groups is it whether you're pro Kiel

828
00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:10.920
<v Speaker 2>or no Kiel. Do you have an opinion on some

829
00:50:10.960 --> 00:50:13.159
<v Speaker 2>of these groups that are out there to prove the

830
00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:15.880
<v Speaker 2>existence by taking a specimen.

831
00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:20.320
<v Speaker 1>I must admit that when I undertook the prospect of

832
00:50:20.440 --> 00:50:22.960
<v Speaker 1>field research with a Vengeance and I hooked up with

833
00:50:23.079 --> 00:50:26.840
<v Speaker 1>a he was actually an MD, but he had a

834
00:50:27.079 --> 00:50:31.239
<v Speaker 1>financial interest in a game reserve in South Africa, so

835
00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:34.400
<v Speaker 1>he was very experienced outdoorsman big game hunter, but also

836
00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:41.199
<v Speaker 1>a conservationist and exotic animal breeder, importer, exporter. We started

837
00:50:41.239 --> 00:50:44.159
<v Speaker 1>off with the intent of the collecting the specimen by

838
00:50:44.159 --> 00:50:48.039
<v Speaker 1>whatever means practical. It was only after a lot of

839
00:50:48.280 --> 00:50:53.519
<v Speaker 1>mental raffling with my self ethics questions. Plus there was

840
00:50:53.559 --> 00:50:56.639
<v Speaker 1>just the pragmatic aspect of if I was really serious

841
00:50:56.639 --> 00:50:59.440
<v Speaker 1>about doing this and I had any funding that was

842
00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:03.679
<v Speaker 1>channeled through the university. All my protocols and methods in

843
00:51:03.719 --> 00:51:07.000
<v Speaker 1>the field had to be approved by Animal Welfare Committee

844
00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:10.000
<v Speaker 1>a protocol to shoot a sasquat. If they even overlooked

845
00:51:10.039 --> 00:51:12.440
<v Speaker 1>the subject matter, it would not have gotten past muster

846
00:51:12.559 --> 00:51:15.599
<v Speaker 1>with the committee. But I came to a change of heart.

847
00:51:16.360 --> 00:51:19.760
<v Speaker 1>At one point I had conversations with doctor Krantz, and

848
00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:23.360
<v Speaker 1>I had seen his utterances on the subject and others,

849
00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:25.920
<v Speaker 1>not just him. It's a funny story, but literally what

850
00:51:26.079 --> 00:51:28.559
<v Speaker 1>happened or where it came to a head, it's not

851
00:51:28.760 --> 00:51:30.880
<v Speaker 1>the thing. But I had taken the kids to see

852
00:51:31.480 --> 00:51:36.039
<v Speaker 1>the Disney Tarzan movie, and if you're familiar with that movie,

853
00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:41.280
<v Speaker 1>there's two very diametrically opposite characters. There's Clayton, who shoots

854
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:45.360
<v Speaker 1>at everything that's moving, and of course he's motivated purely

855
00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:48.719
<v Speaker 1>out of profit and so forth and personal gain where

856
00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:52.119
<v Speaker 1>and the opposite was the professor, who was willing in

857
00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:54.119
<v Speaker 1>the end to give up his entire career and his

858
00:51:54.159 --> 00:51:57.719
<v Speaker 1>whole life in fact, to stay there and study these

859
00:51:57.920 --> 00:52:01.840
<v Speaker 1>majestic animals in their natural health habitat. And this little

860
00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:06.239
<v Speaker 1>imp was sitting on my shoulder and pose the question, Jeff,

861
00:52:06.280 --> 00:52:08.440
<v Speaker 1>which of these two are you? So I didn't take

862
00:52:08.440 --> 00:52:10.719
<v Speaker 1>a lot of soul searching. But it was the nexus

863
00:52:10.760 --> 00:52:14.320
<v Speaker 1>point I guess in my own mental struggles, and I

864
00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:17.039
<v Speaker 1>turned one hundred and eighty degrees and thought, what is

865
00:52:17.079 --> 00:52:20.480
<v Speaker 1>the motivation? Why am I so determined to do this?

866
00:52:20.639 --> 00:52:23.480
<v Speaker 1>And I couldn't justify it. And so from that point on,

867
00:52:23.719 --> 00:52:26.679
<v Speaker 1>the strategy was to try to get tissue or DNA

868
00:52:27.320 --> 00:52:30.559
<v Speaker 1>that we could put this question of recognizing a new

869
00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:32.559
<v Speaker 1>species on the basis of DNA to the test.

870
00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:35.360
<v Speaker 2>Thanks very much for that honest answer, Doc. Thank you

871
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:37.800
<v Speaker 2>so much for coming on the show and answering all

872
00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:39.920
<v Speaker 2>my questions tonight. I really appreciate it.

873
00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:40.679
<v Speaker 4>My pleasure.

874
00:52:40.840 --> 00:52:41.920
<v Speaker 1>All right, you have a good.

875
00:52:43.519 --> 00:52:47.400
<v Speaker 4>They say you don't have to go home, but you

876
00:52:47.639 --> 00:53:21.800
<v Speaker 4>can't stay.

877
00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:23.880
<v Speaker 3>Step step step chid this child, that child, everything came

878
00:53:24.199 --> 00:53:29.960
<v Speaker 3>right back, pride back, joy for me, joy staying right,

879
00:53:32.079 --> 00:54:06.920
<v Speaker 3>you come it right away. Still still stays ss st

880
00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:32.880
<v Speaker 3>st stusts fact, do not, do't, don't talk about the thesis.

881
00:54:34.079 --> 00:54:46.000
<v Speaker 3>Still stills us stisst us thess