1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,159 Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 14 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,439 Speaker 3: We are here today once again with a brand new 16 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,399 episode of Mind over Murder. And because it's been a 17 00:00:55,439 --> 00:00:58,640 hot minute since we've done any sort of introduction other 18 00:00:58,679 --> 00:01:01,600 than immediately jumping in, we figured we'd give you guys 19 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:03,920 a little update on things that are happening with us. 20 00:01:04,239 --> 00:01:07,680 And of course the biggest news is that we are 21 00:01:08,159 --> 00:01:11,920 about to travel to Crime Con in about two weeks. 22 00:01:12,519 --> 00:01:14,879 I'm excited. Are you excited, mister Thomas. 23 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,519 Speaker 2: My head just snapped when you said two weeks. I 24 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:19,439 can't believe it's that close. 25 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 3: I know, it's freaking me out a little bit. 26 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 2: We have a lot of work to do between now 27 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,120 and then, so we are headed to Denver or crime Con, 28 00:01:28,239 --> 00:01:31,719 which is September five, six seven. I'm looking forward to it. 29 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,159 I think it's going to be a very interesting crime con, 30 00:01:34,439 --> 00:01:36,920 and as usual, there's a lot of people we want 31 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:38,760 to see and connect. 32 00:01:38,439 --> 00:01:41,159 Speaker 3: With, absolutely, And one of the things that I do 33 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:43,920 like about crime Con is often it's in places that 34 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,359 I have not either had a chance to visit before, 35 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,239 like Vegas, or it's in places that I've been to, 36 00:01:49,439 --> 00:01:52,840 but I'm happy to go there again, like New Orleans. 37 00:01:53,319 --> 00:01:56,519 I've never been to Denver before, and I'm looking forward 38 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,079 to being able to spend a little bit of time 39 00:01:59,319 --> 00:02:02,799 out and about seeing what Denver's all about and seeing 40 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,280 mountains that are not the Blue Ridge. Have you been 41 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:06,079 to Denver before? 42 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,039 Speaker 2: I have been only briefly. I was there years ago 43 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,919 when I worked for ASCATH and we were out there 44 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,120 for meetings, but I was only there for a couple 45 00:02:14,159 --> 00:02:17,080 of days. I really liked it. It's very beautiful and 46 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,800 of course the mountains are in the background almost all 47 00:02:19,879 --> 00:02:23,759 the time. Typically you'll have about five to six thousand 48 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,719 people and then several hundred subject matter experts. It's always 49 00:02:27,719 --> 00:02:31,639 a really interesting mix of people. Of course, we'll be 50 00:02:31,759 --> 00:02:34,520 on what they call Creator's Row. We'll have a Mindover 51 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,319 Murder booth there, So if you're in town, please stop buy. 52 00:02:38,879 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, we have some new stickers that I designed, and 53 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,199 we just got the order of those stickers in the 54 00:02:47,319 --> 00:02:49,360 other day, Like I just got them and I'm staring 55 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,439 at the box of them. They're very good looking, if 56 00:02:51,479 --> 00:02:54,719 I do say so myself. We'll have our postcards. And 57 00:02:54,879 --> 00:02:57,719 I do have some merch that I'm looking to debut. 58 00:02:58,199 --> 00:03:01,879 I've been making some mind Over or bracelets with beads 59 00:03:01,879 --> 00:03:04,479 and semi precious stones and all sorts of things. I'm 60 00:03:04,479 --> 00:03:06,960 going to debut those. We'll see how it goes. If 61 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,199 they prove to be popular, we'll figure out away maybe 62 00:03:10,199 --> 00:03:12,360 an Etsy shop or something like that where people can 63 00:03:12,479 --> 00:03:15,319 order them. That's something I'm looking forward to. So, yeah, 64 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,680 if you plan on being at crime Con, please stop by. 65 00:03:18,879 --> 00:03:21,319 S Yes, we are booth. Wait, I have that booth number. 66 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,879 We are Booth seventy seven on Creator's Row, so please 67 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:26,520 do stop buying and see us. We're looking forward to 68 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:27,159 seeing all of you. 69 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 2: And if there's anything I'm all about, it's the semi 70 00:03:30,319 --> 00:03:34,400 precious stones. I'm going to be wearing a glitzy mind 71 00:03:34,439 --> 00:03:35,919 Over Murder bracelet. 72 00:03:36,759 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 3: They are very nice and I went wild at the 73 00:03:39,599 --> 00:03:43,120 bead store looking for wonderful, beautiful, one of a kind 74 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,080 type of beads and gems, so it'll be fun. I 75 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:47,840 will make you an extra pretty one. 76 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,159 Speaker 2: Oh, I am so excited about it because I'm really 77 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:52,240 all about jewelry. 78 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 3: You can you're very much a jewelry person. It's been 79 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,400 a heck of this summer and we are looking forward 80 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,560 to moving to Fall a little bit more. We did, however, 81 00:04:03,919 --> 00:04:06,639 have some sad news here just at the end of 82 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,199 the summer, and I'm going to let Bill talk about that. 83 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, my older brother, Richard Thomas, passed away a couple 84 00:04:13,719 --> 00:04:17,959 of days ago, and this was not unexpected. Richard was 85 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:22,399 seventy two years old and a retired Navy doctor. Unfortunately, 86 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,319 coming up on about three years ago, he was diagnosed 87 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,360 with lung cancer, and of course, when you hear lung cancer. 88 00:04:28,519 --> 00:04:32,399 Usually think a smoker, but Richard's none of those things. 89 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:38,000 He didn't smoke, didn't drink, took fantastic care of himself. 90 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,160 He was an athlete of his entire life. He was 91 00:04:41,199 --> 00:04:44,399 a runner, a biker, a swimmer. He took great care 92 00:04:44,439 --> 00:04:47,000 of himself and was careful about what he ate. As 93 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,360 a Navy doctor, he had graduated from the Naval Academy 94 00:04:50,399 --> 00:04:54,600 in nineteen seventy five, from Georgetown Med School in nineteen 95 00:04:54,639 --> 00:04:56,759 seventy nine, and then he went on to get a 96 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:02,319 master's degree at Johns Hopkins. Came an epidemiologist, which is 97 00:05:02,439 --> 00:05:06,040 someone who practices medicine and their goal is to try 98 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:11,680 to prevent disease outbreaks exposure to hazardous chemicals and other materials. 99 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:16,279 We think, actually that Richard's lung cancer, which was diagnosed 100 00:05:16,439 --> 00:05:20,839 as stage four, is related to his naval service in 101 00:05:20,879 --> 00:05:23,720 that he was a ship's doctor in the early part 102 00:05:23,759 --> 00:05:27,480 of his career aboard the USS Guam, which was a 103 00:05:27,519 --> 00:05:31,959 helicopter landing craft. On these old Navy ships, they were 104 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,800 riddled with asbestos. His job was to always protect his 105 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:40,240 Navy a Marine Corps personnel from exposure to things like asbestos. 106 00:05:40,639 --> 00:05:43,800 I remember him telling us when he was a young 107 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,600 naval officer. How every time they did work on the Guam, 108 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,439 they'd be moving bulkheads, which is Navy talk for walls, 109 00:05:52,519 --> 00:05:54,800 and cutting pipe and that sort of thing. I remember 110 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,959 him telling us the ship would be filled with visible 111 00:05:58,319 --> 00:06:02,160 asbestos flying everywhere. He was always trying to limit their 112 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,480 exposure to it. But remember he was being exposed at 113 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,560 the same time. So a couple of years ago he 114 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,240 was diagnosed with terrible back pain and when they went 115 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,879 in and took a look, they realized that he had 116 00:06:13,959 --> 00:06:17,600 lesions on his spine which were related to the spread 117 00:06:17,639 --> 00:06:23,000 of his lung cancer. He survived for another nearly three years. 118 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,639 That would have been in the fall, almost three years ago. 119 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,839 It was a very tough fight, and he had chemo 120 00:06:28,959 --> 00:06:31,720 and radiation, much like I did in my cancer treatment 121 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,040 about eleven years ago. But ultimately we knew that this 122 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,920 was not going to have a happy outcome, and he 123 00:06:38,079 --> 00:06:42,319 passed away last weekend. He and his wife Anne have 124 00:06:42,519 --> 00:06:45,600 three kids who are all grown now, and the older 125 00:06:45,639 --> 00:06:49,240 two boys, Ross and James, are both Navy helicopter pilots. 126 00:06:49,959 --> 00:06:54,439 Then our niece on a rouchen is just wrapping up 127 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:59,160 not one but two master's degrees, Wow, from Notre Dame, 128 00:06:59,199 --> 00:07:01,839 and she's now working for Bank of America. And they're 129 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,439 all amazing young people, and it's too bad they're such slackers. 130 00:07:05,519 --> 00:07:08,519 I can't seem to get anything done. I'm totally teasing. 131 00:07:08,639 --> 00:07:11,000 They're amazing people. I know this is going to be 132 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,079 a difficult time for my sister in law Anne and 133 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,399 for James. Ross and Ona will be getting together in 134 00:07:17,439 --> 00:07:21,439 October for a memorial service for him. Sad news. As 135 00:07:21,439 --> 00:07:24,120 I said, not unexpected, but still difficult. 136 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 3: It is so sad because I remember when you told 137 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,120 me that Richard was diagnosed, how much I was hoping 138 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,120 that there were going to be answers in this case 139 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,240 before he died. And so when we got that big 140 00:07:37,279 --> 00:07:40,000 break in the case back a year ago, more than 141 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,800 a year ago, now, I remember just hoping, Oh my gosh, 142 00:07:43,839 --> 00:07:46,279 I really hope that we have some final answers here 143 00:07:46,319 --> 00:07:49,319 for Richard, so that he has an understanding of what 144 00:07:49,439 --> 00:07:52,920 happened to his younger sister. And so I my heart 145 00:07:52,959 --> 00:07:56,360 breaks for you and your family because I know this 146 00:07:56,399 --> 00:07:58,439 is not the end that you wanted for Richard or 147 00:07:58,439 --> 00:08:00,759 for anybody. But our thoughts in prayer are with you. 148 00:08:00,879 --> 00:08:03,839 Everybody's are. I know our listeners think the world of you. 149 00:08:04,079 --> 00:08:07,000 We're with you, We're very We're sorry about Richard. 150 00:08:07,319 --> 00:08:11,279 Speaker 2: Thank you. The navy thing is very important. Both Richard 151 00:08:11,399 --> 00:08:16,160 and Kathy are Naval Academy grads six years apart, he's 152 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,240 class of seventy five, she graduated in nineteen eighty one. 153 00:08:19,879 --> 00:08:23,120 It would have been very important to Richard to get 154 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,959 those answers prior to his death, and I'm sorry to 155 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,519 say that won't be the outcome that we were looking for. 156 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,159 He went through a very difficult time when Kathy died. 157 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:35,600 I'm not sure if I ever talked about this, but 158 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,399 when Kathy was murdered in the Colonial Parkway murders, it 159 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,799 came to Richard to identify her body. He still talked 160 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:46,360 about how difficult it was, and it always broke my 161 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,679 heart when he talked about going in and seeing Kathy, 162 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,840 whose body was in terrible condition. They covered her up 163 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:54,879 all the way to her chin, and they had cleaned 164 00:08:54,919 --> 00:08:58,200 her face, but it still haunted him all those years later. 165 00:08:58,279 --> 00:09:03,279 It was really a terribly difficult situation. Bob Dowski actually 166 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,279 talked about having to do the same thing with his 167 00:09:06,399 --> 00:09:09,720 sister Becky Kathy's girlfriend right around the same time. Of course, 168 00:09:10,159 --> 00:09:13,039 it's part of the regret of this case is that, 169 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,480 as you've mentioned before, Kristen, with these passing years, we 170 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,840 lose more and more parents in the Colonial Parkray murders, 171 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,320 and now we're losing siblings, and that makes it even 172 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,320 more difficult to watch your family pass on without the 173 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:29,600 answers that they're seeking. 174 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 3: We hope if the FBI's analysts are still listening, please 175 00:09:33,279 --> 00:09:36,600 take that to heart and help us. We need answers 176 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:37,320 now more than ever. 177 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, conversation for another day. 178 00:09:40,399 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 3: We wanted to follow up on three of the crime 179 00:09:42,399 --> 00:09:45,320 stories across the Commonwealth that have captured our attention over 180 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,679 the last couple of weeks, but that may not have 181 00:09:47,799 --> 00:09:51,200 received the kind of national media attention that would have 182 00:09:51,279 --> 00:09:54,519 allowed all of our listeners to hear about them. These 183 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:59,679 really are some very interesting, but very chilling and strange 184 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,360 case is that have been on my mind for the 185 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,360 last couple of weeks and months as they've unfolded across 186 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,080 the state of Virginia, the Commonwealth of Virginia. I should say, 187 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,919 I want to start with this just very chilling case 188 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,279 that was brought to our attention from earlier this month 189 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,480 by one of our friends of the podcast, and that 190 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,879 is Thomas Holsinger. We actually featured Thomas way back in 191 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,320 I think season one, right Bill. I think he was 192 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,559 one of our early guests. Thomas had posted this on 193 00:10:30,639 --> 00:10:33,759 his Facebook page, and I was interested enough in hearing 194 00:10:33,799 --> 00:10:36,240 about this story that I messaged him and said, tell 195 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,799 me a little bit more about what you know. The 196 00:10:38,919 --> 00:10:45,080 reporting on this is compiled from WDBJ seven, which is 197 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,960 one of the major affiliates out of Rennett, and WHSV three. 198 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,919 This particular crime took place on Sunday, August third, twenty 199 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,799 twenty five, in Rockingham County, which is outside of Harrisonburg, 200 00:11:00,039 --> 00:11:02,559 r Jinny. I think the actual name was Timberville. So 201 00:11:02,639 --> 00:11:07,200 on Sunday, August third, the Rockingham County Sheriff's Office responded 202 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,320 to a call for help from the thirteen thousand block 203 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:14,240 of North Valley Pike. The call was from sixty five 204 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:18,159 year old Michael Hatcher, who was the homeowner. He was 205 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,200 found in the driveway of his home, visibly injured. Also 206 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,279 in the driveway was the body of Kevin Moses Walker, 207 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:32,080 age forty one, of Pikesville, Maryland. Mister Walker had entered 208 00:11:32,279 --> 00:11:36,759 the Hatcher's home in a home invasion and stabbed sixty 209 00:11:36,799 --> 00:11:42,960 two year old Holly Hatcher to death before attacking her husband, Michael. 210 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:48,480 The altercation moved outside into the driveway, at which point 211 00:11:48,519 --> 00:11:52,320 Michael Hatcher shot the offender to death with a handgun 212 00:11:52,639 --> 00:11:57,080 that he kept in his vehicle. Hearing that all by 213 00:11:57,159 --> 00:11:59,240 itself was enough to make me go. 214 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,639 Speaker 2: Wow, Ye, it's very strange. Even the basic circumstances of 215 00:12:03,759 --> 00:12:08,720 the murder and mister Hatcher shooting Walker to death in 216 00:12:08,759 --> 00:12:11,639 the driveway of the home, the whole thing just seems 217 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:13,840 like a completely out of control situation. 218 00:12:14,519 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 3: In an attempt to clear up what was rapidly becoming 219 00:12:18,799 --> 00:12:22,360 gossip and speculation, and just to keep the community informed 220 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,679 as to what happened, four days after the incident, Thursday, 221 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,039 August seventh, the Hatcher family and the Rockingham County Sheriff's 222 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:37,159 Office issued a joint statement to well the beginning gossip 223 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,360 that was happening in the community. This was a televised 224 00:12:40,399 --> 00:12:44,080 press conference. I was able to watch it. Press conference 225 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,240 began with this statement from Spencer Hatcher. He is the 226 00:12:48,279 --> 00:12:51,879 son of Michael and Holly Hatcher. The interesting spin that 227 00:12:51,919 --> 00:12:55,039 the national media put on it once it caught. The 228 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,679 story almost a week and a half later, is that 229 00:12:57,759 --> 00:13:01,519 Spencer Hatcher is an up and coming country singer. His 230 00:13:01,639 --> 00:13:04,600 agent compared him to George Strait. I do not listen 231 00:13:04,639 --> 00:13:07,320 to country, but I assume that's a good reference. 232 00:13:07,759 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 2: It is George Straits, considered one of the greatest country 233 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,399 singers who's ever stood before a microphone. 234 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,519 Speaker 3: I figured you would know it music guy, But I 235 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,960 don't listen to country. Unfortunately. I think that's probably a 236 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,480 black mark against me as a Southerner, but it's not 237 00:13:21,519 --> 00:13:23,240 something I spent a lot of time with. But yes, 238 00:13:23,279 --> 00:13:25,759 Spencer Hatcher is an up and coming country singer. So 239 00:13:25,799 --> 00:13:29,240 this was actually rather a big deal, not just for 240 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,440 this area of Virginia, but also for this rising in 241 00:13:32,519 --> 00:13:37,240 popularity singer. So Spencer Hatcher made the first statement of 242 00:13:37,279 --> 00:13:40,320 the press conference. He thanked the community for their support. 243 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,440 He discussed why he felt there was a need for 244 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,679 a joint statement from his family and the Rockingham County 245 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,879 Sheriff's office. He said he felt it was important to 246 00:13:49,879 --> 00:13:53,759 make clear the events surrounding his mother's tragic murder because 247 00:13:53,759 --> 00:13:55,960 he wanted to make sure that everyone was clear on 248 00:13:56,039 --> 00:13:58,879 the sequence of events and that there was no further 249 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:03,000 gossip in speculator inside the community. After that, he did 250 00:14:03,039 --> 00:14:06,440 turn the floor over to his father, Michael. Michael Hatcher 251 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,879 did have bandages on his forearms. They looked consistent with 252 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,840 defensive injuries. The extent of his injuries was not listed 253 00:14:14,879 --> 00:14:18,039 in any of the news articles that I've read. I 254 00:14:18,039 --> 00:14:20,879 would assume if someone is attacking me with the knife, 255 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,480 probably you're going to hold your forearms up in a 256 00:14:23,519 --> 00:14:26,879 defensive gesture, and I'm guessing that's why the bandages were 257 00:14:26,879 --> 00:14:30,799 on his forearms. He started with a very simple statement. 258 00:14:30,879 --> 00:14:32,600 He said, there is no way for you to know 259 00:14:32,639 --> 00:14:35,600 the trauma, the pain, and the unanswered questions that I've 260 00:14:35,679 --> 00:14:38,679 had about this terrible tragedy. Each of you have made 261 00:14:38,679 --> 00:14:43,200 it much more bearable due to your outpouring of love, carrying, kindness, 262 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,960 and support, and for that I thank you very much. 263 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,200 He also extended his thanks to the Rocking and County 264 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,159 Sheriff's Office and Sheriff Brian Hutchinson for their work on 265 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,679 the case. He made sure to thank the staff of 266 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,720 the Sheriff's office. He said they not only took very 267 00:14:58,799 --> 00:15:02,200 good care of his family emotionally, but he said that 268 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,799 during the three days that the crime scene was closed 269 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,519 off to the family, the Sheriff's office staff took care 270 00:15:07,519 --> 00:15:11,240 of the family's pets. They brought clothing and other necessities 271 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,519 to the family and just made sure that they were 272 00:15:13,639 --> 00:15:15,759 as well taken care of as they could be in 273 00:15:15,799 --> 00:15:18,879 the wake of such a terrible tragedy, which I'm very 274 00:15:18,879 --> 00:15:21,279 glad to hear of. That's the kind of community policing 275 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:21,879 that you want. 276 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought this was very, very kind and thoughtful 277 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,039 of the sheriff's staff to take care of the pets, 278 00:15:28,039 --> 00:15:31,120 and during those couple of days when the crime scene, 279 00:15:31,159 --> 00:15:33,720 which is what the house became, was closed off, I 280 00:15:33,759 --> 00:15:36,960 thought it was really above and beyond what you'd expect 281 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:38,639 from a law enforcement agency. 282 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 3: Rockingham County's Sheriff, Brian Hutchinson spoke next. He opened with 283 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,440 a statement about his own close relationship with the Hatcher family. 284 00:15:47,519 --> 00:15:50,960 His kids, for example, had all had Holly Hatcher as 285 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:57,840 a teacher in elementary school. Yeah, with small communities like that, 286 00:15:58,159 --> 00:16:02,440 the tragedy, just as we've always said, the tragedy ripples outwork. 287 00:16:02,519 --> 00:16:05,240 It isn't just the immediate family, it's everybody else in 288 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:09,600 the community. Sheriff Hutchinson took the time to clarify the 289 00:16:09,639 --> 00:16:14,600 timeline surrounding the events of that attack, and he actually 290 00:16:14,639 --> 00:16:18,519 started with the time that the offender, Kevin Walker Moses, 291 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:24,240 came onto the law enforcements radar, and that was on Friday, 292 00:16:24,279 --> 00:16:27,559 the first of August, two days before the attack itself. 293 00:16:28,039 --> 00:16:30,080 So I thought this was very interesting that he wanted 294 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,440 to break it down this far. And again, I can 295 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:37,120 only assume based on some of the discussion that he relayed, 296 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,159 that there had been maybe some speculation, some of it 297 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,120 not based in truth, or some of it unwarranted about 298 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,759 when the Sheriff's office became aware of this offender. 299 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 2: And so much about this case is still unexplained. I 300 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,039 think one of the things the sheriff is trying to 301 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,840 do is tell the public what we do know about 302 00:16:57,879 --> 00:17:01,639 this incident and the very range behaviors that led up 303 00:17:01,679 --> 00:17:05,799 to it. Even looking at the articles, it's still not 304 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,039 clear why this attack happened. 305 00:17:08,759 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 3: Sheriff Hutchinson said that based on the work that they're 306 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,559 investigators and the Virginia State Police investigators did, they determine 307 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,799 the following pieces of information with regard to this case. 308 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,240 They noted that on Friday, August first, the offender rented 309 00:17:24,279 --> 00:17:28,720 a campsite at Endless Caverns. Endless Caverns. For anybody who 310 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,559 is outside of the state of Virginia and is not aware, 311 00:17:32,039 --> 00:17:34,359 it is pretty much exactly what it sounds like. It's 312 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,160 a big set of beautiful caverns that you can take 313 00:17:37,319 --> 00:17:39,720 tours of. The most famous ones here in Virginia are 314 00:17:39,759 --> 00:17:43,640 probably Loray Caverns Endless Caverns. I've actually never been to them, 315 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,799 but I'm told they're absolutely stunning, and they're one of 316 00:17:46,839 --> 00:17:50,440 the many attractions here in Virginia for people who are 317 00:17:50,599 --> 00:17:54,279 big into caves, caving, all the really interesting sort of 318 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,559 underground sort of things. So he rented a campsite at 319 00:17:57,599 --> 00:18:00,279 Endless Caverns, and he also paid for a two tour 320 00:18:00,559 --> 00:18:04,440 of the caverns on that Friday. Later that afternoon, according 321 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,079 to the Sheriff's office, he purchased a sleeping bag, which 322 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,519 makes sense if you've run at a campsite, but he also 323 00:18:11,079 --> 00:18:15,319 purchased a knife at the Timberville Walmart. CCTV footage did 324 00:18:15,319 --> 00:18:17,640 share the offender leaving with those items, so that's the 325 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,240 first time they really marked him on their radar. The 326 00:18:21,279 --> 00:18:25,200 next day, Saturday, the second, Virginia State Police received a 327 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,519 call for a disabled and damaged vehicle on the road 328 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:34,240 to Endless Caverns. Ultimately, the vehicle belonged to Walker. VSP 329 00:18:34,319 --> 00:18:37,480 officers went to Endless Caverns and they found that the 330 00:18:37,519 --> 00:18:42,640 Caverns store had been rammed by a vehicle and broken into. 331 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,359 The damage on the store like matched the damage on 332 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:50,920 the vehicle. It was determined that the offender used a car, 333 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,799 rammed the store and then he broke into and entered 334 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,480 the caverns itself, because to get to the caverns you 335 00:18:58,519 --> 00:19:01,240 have to go through it a doorway through the visitors center. 336 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,319 VSP begins searching for him. Where is he? Is he 337 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,400 in the caverns, outside of the caverns? Where is he? 338 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,720 We don't know. The offender ultimately was not found. That 339 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,319 is when VSP decided, Okay, maybe we need a warrant 340 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,920 for this guy and we need to figure out where 341 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,640 he is. That was the last time that there was 342 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,319 any evidence of the offender in the area until that 343 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:28,480 emergency call from Michael Hatcher at eleven fifty eight pm 344 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,559 on Sunday, August third, So his whereabouts are unaccounted for 345 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,839 between the time he entered Endless Caverns until after he 346 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,359 arrived at the Hatcher home and murdered Holicatcher. There had 347 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,599 been some question in the local community about whether or 348 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,880 not the offender had been seen in any area outside 349 00:19:48,039 --> 00:19:51,799 of Endless Caverns, and he said no. He said Virginia 350 00:19:51,799 --> 00:19:54,279 State Police did not receive any calls about the offender. 351 00:19:54,599 --> 00:19:58,079 Rockingham County Sheriff's office did not receive calls about the offender. 352 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,480 The only time it got a call eleven fifty eight 353 00:20:01,599 --> 00:20:04,519 on Sunday, augustern At the end of it all, the 354 00:20:04,559 --> 00:20:07,640 sheriff said, in his thirty one years in law enforcement, 355 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,880 he had never seen anything like this. He said, it 356 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:14,319 is a random attack. He noted that it is extraordinarily unusual, 357 00:20:14,519 --> 00:20:18,000 especially because the offender did not have a history of violence. 358 00:20:18,079 --> 00:20:21,039 That anyone has been able to find what prompted this. 359 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,559 We have no idea, and I'm very interested to know 360 00:20:24,799 --> 00:20:27,279 if that is something anyone will be able to ascertain. 361 00:20:27,839 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 2: This almost sounds like some sort of mental breakdown because 362 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,839 we're not even aware of any relationship between Walker and 363 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:36,440 his victims. 364 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 3: Now he's from Maryland. Have found no link between them 365 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,799 at all. This is the part that made me go, 366 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:45,759 what in the world is happening here? 367 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,079 Speaker 2: What else is on too, is that Moses hayes for 368 00:20:49,599 --> 00:20:53,480 and apparently goes on a tour of endless caverns, but 369 00:20:53,519 --> 00:20:56,960 then the next day he's crashing his car or truck 370 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,920 into a fence or gate and mashing into the door 371 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:07,160 of the Endless Cavern's store. Whole thing just seemed so bizarre. 372 00:21:07,799 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 3: It was very odd. The follow up article that I saw, 373 00:21:11,759 --> 00:21:14,039 and there hasn't really been much of one because I 374 00:21:14,079 --> 00:21:17,160 don't think they know anything else. But the one follow 375 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,279 up article that I saw said that he was, by 376 00:21:20,319 --> 00:21:24,160 all accounts, very polite, yes ma'am and no Sarah. To 377 00:21:24,279 --> 00:21:27,240 everybody that he encountered on the tour. He was quiet, 378 00:21:27,319 --> 00:21:31,039 he kept to himself, did not arouse any suspicion in 379 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,920 any way. I'm with you, Bill, I feel like this 380 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,000 might be some sort of mental break. I can't think 381 00:21:37,039 --> 00:21:38,799 of any other way to account for that. 382 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 2: Unless you can show us a connection between Moses and 383 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,559 the Hatcher family. I don't know why he would kill 384 00:21:45,599 --> 00:21:50,319 Holly Hatcher and attack her husband. This doesn't make any sense. 385 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 3: Very unusual, very strange, especially an unpremeditated, random stranger attack. 386 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,440 For someone with no history of violence. Absolutely bizarre, and 387 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,599 that's really what kind of brought this to my attention. 388 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,400 So thank you to Thomas for putting that on our radar. 389 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,799 And if we hear anything else about this investigation, we'll 390 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:12,039 keep you all informed. 391 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder, we'll be right back. 392 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:21,119 After this word from our sponsors, we're back here at 393 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:22,039 mindover Murder. 394 00:22:23,039 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 3: An even more confounding attack and one that is terrifying 395 00:22:26,279 --> 00:22:29,759 in a very different way, took place in Danville, Virginia 396 00:22:29,839 --> 00:22:32,519 on July thirtieth, So this was just a couple of 397 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,000 days before the home invasion at the Hatchet family. 398 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,519 Speaker 2: For us non Virginians, help us out with where is Danville? 399 00:22:41,279 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 3: Danville is near the North Carolina state line, and this 400 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,559 is another one of those stories. When it broke on 401 00:22:49,279 --> 00:22:51,960 my phone and started blowing up on my social media feed, 402 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,680 the only thing that I could think at first was 403 00:22:55,519 --> 00:22:59,160 is this actually real? Absolutely confounding. I remember I called 404 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,440 you and I said have you heard about this? And 405 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,440 you hadn't, And I told you about it and you 406 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,720 were gobsmacked for a minute, which is it's hard to 407 00:23:06,799 --> 00:23:10,279 find Bill without words, guys. I managed to find him 408 00:23:10,279 --> 00:23:12,079 without any in response to this. 409 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 2: Like the first case, this one is very bizarre as well. 410 00:23:17,599 --> 00:23:21,839 Speaker 3: So Danville City Councilman Lee Vogeler, aged thirty eight, was 411 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,559 attacked by twenty nine year old Shatzi Michael Buckhayes that's 412 00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:30,799 a hyphenated last name in his office at Showcase Magazine, 413 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,920 where he serves as the director of Marketing. Buck Hayes 414 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,039 broke into the office board a five gallon bucket of 415 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:44,079 gasoline on Vogeler. When Vogeler ran outside after yelling for 416 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,960 his magazine colleagues to dial nine to one one, buck 417 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:53,319 Hayes set Vogeler on fire and fled the scene. That 418 00:23:53,519 --> 00:23:57,680 idea of setting someone on fire, A, that's terrifying, and B. 419 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,920 I cannot imagine what sort of twisted mind you must 420 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,559 have for that to be the first thing that occurs 421 00:24:04,599 --> 00:24:06,839 to you to do to somebody, Oh, I'll set them 422 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,559 on fire. I can't even conceive of that. Based on 423 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,079 what we know so far, and I've been checking on 424 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,200 this story quite often, there is still nothing here about motivation. 425 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,960 The attack was not politically motivated. It stemmed from quote, 426 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,319 a personal matter not related to the victim's position on 427 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:31,359 Danville City Council, and that's according to Danville Peaty. Now 428 00:24:31,559 --> 00:24:33,839 there has been a little bit of I would say 429 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,079 inferencing going on by people who are familiar with the story, 430 00:24:37,599 --> 00:24:42,119 because we do know that prior to this attack, Shatzi 431 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:47,359 Michael buck Hayes was being served with divorce papers by 432 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:51,799 his wife, and people have inferred maybe the personal matter 433 00:24:52,559 --> 00:24:56,599 has something to do with this serving of divorce papers. 434 00:24:57,079 --> 00:24:59,319 I don't have any way of knowing that. I think 435 00:24:59,319 --> 00:25:01,240 the only people who you know that are probably the 436 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,519 two people who are most intimately involved in this. So far, 437 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,160 no motive other than personal matter not related to the 438 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,160 victim's position on Danville City Council has been announced. 439 00:25:11,559 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 2: Where Lee Vogler works is a magazine that's designed to 440 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,480 highlight all the great things that are going on in 441 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,519 that part of Virginia. Of course, then he serves on 442 00:25:21,559 --> 00:25:25,880 the city Council. So here's this magazine which obviously puts 443 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,240 a positive spin to what's going on in that part 444 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,039 of southern Virginia, and mister Vogler, in his work on 445 00:25:32,079 --> 00:25:35,279 the city council would obviously be trying to put the 446 00:25:35,279 --> 00:25:38,400 best public face forward for Danville. And then there's this 447 00:25:38,759 --> 00:25:42,200 bizarre attack on him at his place of work. 448 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,799 Speaker 3: Mister buck Hayes was picked up after leaving the Showcase 449 00:25:46,839 --> 00:25:51,200 offices after setting mister Vogler on fire. When police interviewed him, 450 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,359 he did admit that it was his intention to kill Vogler. 451 00:25:54,839 --> 00:25:58,279 Either he didn't say why or the police are withholding 452 00:25:58,759 --> 00:26:02,000 the why the personal matter. Mister Buckey's is being held 453 00:26:02,039 --> 00:26:05,640 without bail. He has been charged with attempted first degree 454 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,680 murder and aggravated malicious wounding and his preliminary hearing is 455 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,599 set for September thirtieth. And this is another thing that 456 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,440 I really am interested in keeping my eye on because 457 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,519 this is such an interesting case. Lee Vogler's wife, Blair, 458 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,279 has been keeping everyone in the community up to date 459 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:28,119 on his condition. At last check, he had suffered burns 460 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,720 over sixty five percent of his body, mostly his torso 461 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,440 he will remain hospitalized for the next six months and 462 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:40,279 will need a series of surgical procedures. Showcase Magazine set 463 00:26:40,319 --> 00:26:43,640 up a go fund me for the Vogler family. They 464 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,160 initially set the price they were looking to raise at 465 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,799 one hundred thousand dollars. It rose since to two hundred 466 00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:52,960 and fifty thousand that takes into account medical care for Lee, 467 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,319 travel expenses, and then lost wages from both his job 468 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,440 and his wife's job. Currently, the go f me has 469 00:27:00,519 --> 00:27:04,319 raised one hundred and forty three thousand dollars. The last 470 00:27:04,519 --> 00:27:09,319 I heard on August nineteenth, the latest update on his 471 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,559 condition was that he was able to stand for the 472 00:27:12,559 --> 00:27:15,559 first time with the help of a physical therapist. He 473 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,240 was taken off of a ventilator after receiving a tracheostomy, 474 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,400 and he can now speak, but only a couple of words. 475 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,720 He is scheduled for more surgery next week. His injuries, 476 00:27:26,759 --> 00:27:30,079 according to the Famili's go fundme page, will permanently impact 477 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,920 his and his family's lives, and the sheer amount of 478 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,559 financial resources required for long term care is difficult to estimate. 479 00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:40,359 He faces multiple surgeries and extended hospitals day and months, 480 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:41,640 if not years of rehab. 481 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 2: Burns over sixty five percent of your body are really serious. 482 00:27:46,319 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 3: I cannot even imagine the amount of pain and trauma 483 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:52,880 that poor man is going through. 484 00:27:53,519 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 2: It's just horrible. This case. It did make national news. 485 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,359 Oh yeah, a very strange and sad case. I was 486 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:10,279 initially baffled by this guy's name Shatzi, Michael buck hayes 487 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,960 it sounds like a made up character from a comic 488 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,920 book or something. We're still not clear on what the 489 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,960 motivation is here. I think the fact that he was 490 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,160 going through a divorce just weeks prior probably has something 491 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:23,960 to do with this. 492 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,759 Speaker 3: Yeah, I would imagine. So there's of course been a 493 00:28:27,839 --> 00:28:32,440 ton of gossip and speculation online. Anytime you looked at 494 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,160 the comments section for any of these stories, it was 495 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,200 just rife with people assuming they know what happened, or 496 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,440 they had to make a guess as to what happened. Obviously, 497 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,960 we cannot really know the circumstances here unless someone says it, 498 00:28:46,119 --> 00:28:48,559 so I think in cases such as this it's better 499 00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:51,559 not to speculate. I just can't imagine what makes a 500 00:28:51,599 --> 00:28:54,559 person wake up one day and decide not only today 501 00:28:54,599 --> 00:28:58,440 I choose violence, but today I choose to maim somebody, 502 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,880 and one of the most horrific ways I can possibly imagine. 503 00:29:02,359 --> 00:29:05,720 The idea of being set on fire is terrible and terrifying. 504 00:29:06,119 --> 00:29:07,559 That's nightmare material for me. 505 00:29:07,799 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 2: From everything I've read and heard, being burned in this 506 00:29:11,119 --> 00:29:15,200 manner is among the worst possible ways to be attacked. 507 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,279 I'm truly amazed that mister Brogler survived, and it looks 508 00:29:19,279 --> 00:29:23,240 like this is going to be a long, slow, painful recovery. 509 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 3: The final case we wanted to talk about is one 510 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,920 that is just another and a long list of suspicious 511 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,319 deaths at military bases in the United States. We know 512 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,039 this is a problem. We've reported on several of them before. 513 00:29:40,279 --> 00:29:44,400 Probably the most notable, I think was Vanessa Gien. This 514 00:29:44,519 --> 00:29:48,599 case here is local and it is very upsetting. That 515 00:29:48,759 --> 00:29:54,000 is the heartbreaking case of Angelina Rescindas, a sailor at 516 00:29:54,079 --> 00:29:59,279 Naval Station Norfolk. On June ninth, Angelina Petrorissindez, twenty one, 517 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,599 was found to ceased in a wooded area near Broad 518 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,920 Creek in Norfolk, which is ten miles from the naval base. 519 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:11,839 The timeline is really murky here in relation to her disappearance. 520 00:30:12,559 --> 00:30:17,599 It took me quite an effort of piecing together information 521 00:30:18,079 --> 00:30:20,480 to try to get an accurate timeline, and finally I 522 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,920 just had to go to someone else's reporting on the 523 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,720 case because so much had been written in our local media. 524 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,400 There were too many stories. I was having trouble aggregating 525 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,640 all of my sources. Here, I'm going to read out 526 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,519 from People magazines reporting on the case, and hopefully we 527 00:30:38,559 --> 00:30:41,200 can shed a little bit more light on what happened 528 00:30:41,319 --> 00:30:44,920 to this twenty one year old sailor. The last reporting 529 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,279 that was done was in July. Even local media here 530 00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:51,160 has not done a great deal with this case, and 531 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,640 I am really curious about why, because there's multiple facets 532 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,640 to this that I think deserve discussion. This is from 533 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:02,920 People magazines reporting this. Previously said that Angelina Petro Rissindez 534 00:31:03,079 --> 00:31:05,720 was last seen at her barracks in Miller Hall at 535 00:31:05,799 --> 00:31:09,799 Naval Station Norfolk on May twenty ninth. She was later 536 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,160 found dead in an off base wooded area days later. 537 00:31:13,759 --> 00:31:17,079 A Department of the Navy memo obtained and published by 538 00:31:17,079 --> 00:31:23,079 both CBS affiliate WTKR and NBC affiliate WAVY sheds more 539 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,000 light on the timeline of events tied to Riscindez's death. 540 00:31:27,599 --> 00:31:31,480 In the memo sent to Texas Representative Henry Queller, the 541 00:31:31,559 --> 00:31:35,079 Navy confirmed that Riscindez, who was assigned to the USS 542 00:31:35,359 --> 00:31:38,400 James E. Williams prior to her death, was last seen 543 00:31:38,519 --> 00:31:41,880 at the barracks of an unnamed sailor around ten am 544 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,519 local time on May twenty ninth, During a wellness check 545 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:50,200 on another sailor for the memo. Risindez was on authorized 546 00:31:50,359 --> 00:31:54,039 liberty on May twenty nine, meaning she had no assigned 547 00:31:54,119 --> 00:31:56,839 duties on the ship that day and was not required 548 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,160 to muster with her chain of command and bi from 549 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,240 a Navy family, so I assume that a lot of 550 00:32:03,279 --> 00:32:04,880 this is familiar to you. 551 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 2: It sounds like the USS James E. Williams might be 552 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,400 import or perhaps in dry dock. She clearly has no 553 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,079 assigned duties that day and so she wasn't required to 554 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,359 be on board this ship during that timeframe. 555 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,359 Speaker 3: So the reporting continues. The Naval Station Norfolk Base Police 556 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,960 first conducted a wellness check at five point forty five 557 00:32:30,119 --> 00:32:34,079 am that day when an officer reported he could not 558 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,240 locate c SSN Risindez after she contacted him requesting to 559 00:32:39,279 --> 00:32:40,839 be picked up at the barracks. 560 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 2: But those two last bits of reporting contradict each other. 561 00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:49,720 If they're saying Riscendez was on an authorized liberty and 562 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,720 was not required to muster with her chain of command, 563 00:32:52,759 --> 00:32:55,559 which is how the day starts early in the morning 564 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,640 when the crew checks in, I don't understand then why 565 00:33:00,039 --> 00:33:04,200 they're reporting he couldn't locate sailor Verscendez, because if she 566 00:33:04,319 --> 00:33:06,559 wasn't due to be on board the ship that day, 567 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,960 why are they looking for her? And then what's this 568 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,839 wellness check situation? It sounds like somebody's jammed up in 569 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,039 some way or another and they're checking on their whereabouts 570 00:33:17,119 --> 00:33:20,519 to make sure that person is okay. So there's some 571 00:33:20,559 --> 00:33:23,440 stuff that's going on here in the background that's not 572 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,079 really being made very clear. It almost sounds like someone 573 00:33:27,279 --> 00:33:30,759 was not well or in a hazardous kind of situation. 574 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,279 Why you send someone out on a wellness check. 575 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 3: It says. Police eventually entered her room and she was 576 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,440 later located in the room assigned to another sailor hours later, 577 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,759 so wellness check at five forty five, they found her later, 578 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,880 and then she was expected to muster or check in 579 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,119 for duty at seven thirty am the following day, May thirtieth, 580 00:33:54,359 --> 00:33:55,839 but did not report. 581 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,279 Speaker 2: But then keep going It gets even more curious. 582 00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 3: Nine am on May thirtieth, another wellness check was conducted 583 00:34:04,759 --> 00:34:07,440 on both her room and the room of the other 584 00:34:07,599 --> 00:34:12,719 sailor whom she was last seen with. Neither sailor was located, 585 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,960 according to the timeline of events provided by the Navy. 586 00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:20,320 The other sailor's name has not yet been released. 587 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,280 Speaker 2: There's something not right about this. There's something off about this. 588 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,599 So we're talking about two wellness checks two days in 589 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:31,800 a row. Are we talking about someone that's struggling with 590 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:38,159 a mental illness issue? Drugs? Alcohol? Why is Norfolk based 591 00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:43,039 police checking up repeatedly on at least two individuals? 592 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,199 Speaker 3: That is why I was having so much trouble compiling 593 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,800 all of this. There are so many conflicting stories here. 594 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,719 People's reporting continues here. The new details come weeks after 595 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,000 Marshall Griffin, an attorney who represents Riscindez his mother, told 596 00:34:59,039 --> 00:35:02,559 WAVY that the the Navy confirmed a man named Jeremiah 597 00:35:02,599 --> 00:35:07,119 Copeland was detained or confined on suspicion in the case 598 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:12,519 following an initial review officers hearing at the Navy Consolidated 599 00:35:12,559 --> 00:35:17,599 Brig in Chesapeake. The interesting part about having a name here, 600 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,039 Jeremiah Copeland, is that there's not been a lot put 601 00:35:21,039 --> 00:35:24,119 out about this guy. In fact, very little has been 602 00:35:24,119 --> 00:35:27,039 put out here in the local media about this case 603 00:35:27,199 --> 00:35:31,119 other than the facts in question here, some of which 604 00:35:31,159 --> 00:35:35,599 seem to contradict each other. The Navy has not released 605 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,119 cause or death. They have not released any formal charges 606 00:35:40,159 --> 00:35:43,039 stated whether formal charges will be filed. They have not 607 00:35:43,159 --> 00:35:46,559 stated whether her death will be classified as a homicide. 608 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's something not right here, and this case begins 609 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,920 to remind me of the Vanessa Guienne case, where military 610 00:35:55,039 --> 00:35:57,880 law enforcement doesn't seem to be dealing with this in 611 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:03,400 a straightforward manner of all this, Jeremiah Copeland, who apparently 612 00:36:03,519 --> 00:36:07,719 is another sailor, was detained or confined on suspicion. This 613 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,559 is weeks and weeks ago months now, has he or 614 00:36:11,599 --> 00:36:15,599 has he not been charged with being involved in her death? 615 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,519 And is her death a homicide? I know as you continue, 616 00:36:19,559 --> 00:36:24,679 her family, who've interestingly already hired a lawyer, are clearly 617 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,320 not satisfied with the answers they're getting from the United 618 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,119 States Navy, and I don't blame them. 619 00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:34,320 Speaker 3: Rassindez' mother, as Marelda Castle, has many questions for the 620 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,000 Navy related to how her daughter's disappearance was handled. Understandably, 621 00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:42,519 so she did retain a lawyer, Marshall Griffin. He is 622 00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:45,719 a former JAG officer who now serves as a military 623 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,679 defense lawyer in the private sector, and he has been 624 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,239 helping the family through this. So after her daughter disappeared, 625 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,360 and after her body was found, she appeared on local 626 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,280 media and said that she had a lot of questions 627 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,599 for the Navy related to the disappearance, and after her 628 00:37:01,679 --> 00:37:05,400 daughter's body was returned home, she again appeared on media 629 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,039 with questions about the way that her daughter's body was 630 00:37:09,159 --> 00:37:12,480 returned to her. And this part makes my blood boil, 631 00:37:12,679 --> 00:37:15,159 and I'm sure that it makes sure is too, considering 632 00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:18,800 the history that I know your family has with the military, 633 00:37:19,119 --> 00:37:21,480 they should have treated this poor woman a whole lot 634 00:37:21,519 --> 00:37:25,159 better than this. As Maurelda Castle stated that when her 635 00:37:25,199 --> 00:37:28,760 daughter's body came home to Texas with full military honors, 636 00:37:29,199 --> 00:37:32,079 she was quote sent home the way she was found, 637 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:37,400 she continued, her body was covered, she was infested with maggots, 638 00:37:37,559 --> 00:37:41,559 with bugs and decayne. They didn't preserve her body. 639 00:37:42,039 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 2: This is very bizarre. Now, if she disappeared Honor about 640 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,280 the twenty ninth and was found Honor about June ninth, 641 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,880 that means her body was probably out in this wooded 642 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,280 area for ten days. You would think that they would 643 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,880 have cleaned up her body after an autopsy. And again 644 00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:04,519 there's no mention of an autopsy or cause of death here, right, 645 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,480 So this woman dies under at minimum, I would call 646 00:38:08,519 --> 00:38:12,599 it mysterious circumstances. By the way, there's something here about 647 00:38:12,679 --> 00:38:16,559 the Naval Criminal Investigative Service and CIS did confirm to 648 00:38:16,639 --> 00:38:20,000 people that a Navy sailor had been placed in quote 649 00:38:20,079 --> 00:38:25,440 pre trial confinement in connection with the case. So that 650 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,960 sounds like someone's going to be charged with murder or 651 00:38:29,039 --> 00:38:33,400 manslaughter or something along those lines. I am baffled as 652 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,199 to why they haven't put out more information about what 653 00:38:37,559 --> 00:38:41,719 happened to Siemen Rissendez and why her body was returned 654 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,840 in such horrible shape. Why wouldn't they have conducted an 655 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,920 autopsy and then prepared her body to be shipped home 656 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,559 in proper shape, not infested with maggots, bugs and decay 657 00:38:53,599 --> 00:38:54,639 as her mother said. 658 00:38:55,159 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, their lawyer, mister Griffin, reached out to the Navy 659 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,920 to determine what the is for preserving a sailor's remains 660 00:39:03,079 --> 00:39:07,360 under suspicious circumstances. He said, quote the professionalism of the 661 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,360 interaction so far has been less than what I would 662 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,519 have expected under circumstances like this. My inquiries thus far 663 00:39:14,679 --> 00:39:18,559 have not yielded any real answers. That's disgusting. 664 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, and once again, just like the Vanessa Guienne case. 665 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,960 There seems to be a pattern of shabby treatment of 666 00:39:26,199 --> 00:39:30,159 military families who are looking for answers. They're dealing with 667 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:35,840 shocking news, and then somebody's got to explain to Msressenda's mother, 668 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,639 as morel the Castle, what the heck happened to their daughter. 669 00:39:39,039 --> 00:39:41,679 Speaker 3: I want to give real props here to our Senators 670 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:46,360 Mark Warner and Tim Kaine, who immediately expressed their dismay 671 00:39:46,679 --> 00:39:49,119 at all of this and drafted a letter to the 672 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,920 US Navy, which they released jointly on social media, in 673 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,760 which they asked for a full report from the Navy 674 00:39:56,119 --> 00:40:00,360 on all aspects of Angelina Riscindez his case. They both 675 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,920 said the Navy needs to be held accountable. Senator Kane 676 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,679 said Miss Castle has a right to be deeply concerned 677 00:40:06,679 --> 00:40:08,559 about this, and I did commit to her as a 678 00:40:08,599 --> 00:40:11,119 member of the Armed Services Committee that I'm going to 679 00:40:11,119 --> 00:40:14,320 be reaching out. We do have that letter here, and 680 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,159 I do want to go ahead and read that because hey, 681 00:40:17,159 --> 00:40:19,639 it's very nicely phrased, but also it really gets to 682 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,000 the heart of the issues here. So this is the 683 00:40:23,119 --> 00:40:27,599 joint letter from Senators Tim Kaine and Mark Warner. This 684 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,119 is addressed to the Honorable John Phalan, Secretary of the Navy. 685 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,639 Dear Secretary Phalan, we write to inquire about the Navy's 686 00:40:34,639 --> 00:40:38,239 handling of the tragic death of Semen Angelina p. Ruscindez. 687 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,840 While we acknowledge the Navy's engagement with congressional offices to date, 688 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,000 ongoing questions and concerns related to the period of her disappearance, 689 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,559 the circumstances leading to her death, and the Navy's policies 690 00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:54,719 and procedures throughout demand answers, we urged the swift and 691 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,239 thorough completion of the criminal investigation and an associated administrative 692 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,280 investigation as the Service examines the circumstances of Semen rescind 693 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,599 As his death. In response to our engagement, along with 694 00:41:06,639 --> 00:41:10,039 that of broader congressional colleagues, the Navy has provided some 695 00:41:10,159 --> 00:41:13,920 initial information related to this tragic case. As the Navy 696 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,519 continues its investigation, it is critical that you provide Congress 697 00:41:17,559 --> 00:41:22,000 with significantly greater detail about the circumstances of Semen rescind As, 698 00:41:22,039 --> 00:41:25,199 his disappearance and death, including a more fulsome accounting of 699 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,280 the Navy's engagement with Seamen rescind As, his loved ones 700 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,199 and fellow sailors who had raised concerns about her well being. 701 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,480 The information is vital in helping to fully understand the 702 00:41:34,519 --> 00:41:36,960 response from the Navy as well as state and local 703 00:41:37,039 --> 00:41:40,719 law enforcement. Additionally, we urge you to provide clarity around 704 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,559 the actions taken by the Navy upon first learning of 705 00:41:43,599 --> 00:41:46,760 Semen rescind as his absence and Navy leader's adherence to 706 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,360 a range of protocols and procedures, including those outlined in 707 00:41:50,679 --> 00:41:55,199 Milpersman sixteen hundred four O, which governs absent, enlisted and 708 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,280 officer personnel. Furthermore, we ask for detail on what investigative 709 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,840 steps were taken and when by the Navy and its 710 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,679 Naval and Criminal Investigative Service and CIS, as well as 711 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,519 the interactions with local and Virginia State police. Finally, we 712 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,920 reiterate our concern over the public accounts from the family 713 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,320 about the grief and anger caused by the condition of 714 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,519 Semen Riscindez's remains upon arrival in Texas. We have serious 715 00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:23,480 questions as to what policies and procedures governed dignified transfer 716 00:42:23,519 --> 00:42:26,760 of remains after an investigation and whether they were followed 717 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,000 in this instance. As you must surely understand your timely 718 00:42:30,039 --> 00:42:33,400 response on these matters is especially important to community advocates, 719 00:42:33,599 --> 00:42:36,920 Seamen Orscendez's loved ones, the broader Navy family, and members 720 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,320 of Congress. As such, we request a briefing from relevant 721 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:44,000 maybe and installation leadership by August fourteenth, twenty twenty five, 722 00:42:44,079 --> 00:42:46,519 in order to further address a range of questions and 723 00:42:46,559 --> 00:42:49,159 concerns about the case, from the initial reports of Seamen 724 00:42:49,199 --> 00:42:52,159 Rescindez's missing status up to and including the return of 725 00:42:52,159 --> 00:42:56,679 her remains to Texas. Sincerely, Tim Kane, US Senator, Mark R. Warner, 726 00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,239 US Senator, And it is currently August twenty five first 727 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,800 as we are recording this, and to the best of 728 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,840 my knowledge, no additional information about this inquiry has come forward, 729 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:09,960 at least not in the news media that I've seen today. 730 00:43:10,559 --> 00:43:12,440 At some point or another, I assume that they will 731 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:17,000 be announcing charges any other information. We will keep you updated. 732 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:19,800 That is going to do it for this episode of 733 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,079 Mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening, and 734 00:43:23,159 --> 00:43:25,199 if you're headed to Crime con we hope to see 735 00:43:25,199 --> 00:43:27,199 you there. We'll see you next time. 736 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 1: Mindover Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and another 737 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:41,320 Dog productions. 738 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,239 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 739 00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 740 00:43:48,639 --> 00:43:50,679 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud. 741 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 1: Mindover Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 742 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,159 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 743 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,880 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 744 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:03,760 Murders on Facebook. 745 00:44:03,559 --> 00:44:06,559 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 746 00:44:06,599 --> 00:44:08,239 Bill Thomas five six. 747 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,800 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.