WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:03.520 Oh hey, it's your old binder from junior year with 2 00:00:03.640 --> 00:00:07.160 slipknot lyrics in the margins, Ali Ward, bulge your seatbelts 3 00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:10.599 for a ride through the science of roadkill. People study 4 00:00:10.599 --> 00:00:14.160 this so that you encounter it less, So heads up. 5 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:17.800 Obviously we do talk about accidents with wildlife, that's the episode, 6 00:00:17.839 --> 00:00:20.760 but in the context of how to prevent and avoid 7 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:24.280 and survive them. So if you care about animals or 8 00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:27.920 your car insurance premiums, it's worth the listen to learn 9 00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:30.800 how to help these critters out, both every day and 10 00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:34.240 in an emergency. So this interviewee I have chased down 11 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:38.240 for years. I have been tailgating his social media, like 12 00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:40.359 can we do an episode at cammic Camy Camming Camming. 13 00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:43.679 And he has been the most elusive guest technologies history 14 00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:47.439 because he's been writing a book about this very subject 15 00:00:47.560 --> 00:00:52.679 for years, interviewing rhoetecologists all over the world about nearly 16 00:00:52.719 --> 00:00:56.399 every biome and biological specimen. And he wanted to wait 17 00:00:56.520 --> 00:00:59.240 until it was done and out to chat. And that 18 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:02.399 time is now except that he got COVID. But he's 19 00:01:02.479 --> 00:01:05.439 a really dedicated man, and we did the interview anyway 20 00:01:05.480 --> 00:01:07.879 remotely as he was getting over it, so we're gonna 21 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:09.599 get it right to it. But first, thank you to 22 00:01:09.640 --> 00:01:12.439 every patron at patreon dot com slash ologies for supporting 23 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:15.239 the show and setting in your questions. For this you 24 00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:17.959 can join as an ologist Pal for a buck a 25 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:21.079 month and submit questions, but the BFF tier can leave 26 00:01:21.079 --> 00:01:24.200 me audio questions. We may even plan the show. Also, 27 00:01:24.359 --> 00:01:27.640 thank you to everyone wearing and tagging yourself with ologies 28 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:30.519 merch for social media, and folks who just leave a 29 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:32.400 review for me to read, which you know I do. 30 00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:35.680 Such is this one from was an odd child who 31 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:39.719 wrote five stars. Ali Ward, my father, uncle and missing. 32 00:01:39.799 --> 00:01:43.480 Wallett is the host of my favorite hyperfixation Theologies podcast, 33 00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:46.079 Best Way to spend an hour or two. Okay, let's 34 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:48.560 be honest. Three was an odd child. I thank you 35 00:01:48.599 --> 00:01:50.599 for that. I'm glad that you're one of us. Okay 36 00:01:50.680 --> 00:01:54.879 wrote ecology, very legit term for a very sad reality. 37 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:58.000 But today's topic, the facet of it we're looking at 38 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:01.480 is the impact on wildlife and huge interactions. So this 39 00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:05.519 guest has a master's in environmental management from the Yale 40 00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:09.680 School of Forestry and Environmental Studies and his literally award 41 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:13.560 winning science journalism has appeared in everything from National Geographic 42 00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:17.479 to The New York Times. Device His latest book is Crossings, 43 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:20.919 How road ecology is shaping the future of our planet, 44 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:24.800 and it necessitated talking to so many rhode ecologists and 45 00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:27.919 then packing all that knowledge into this gift that he's 46 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:30.439 giving us in this interview. So if you have a 47 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:33.520 keen ear, also you're going to hear the mention of 48 00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:36.840 Montana more than once. And so I invite you, when 49 00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:39.199 you do, to take a sip of the nearest beverage, 50 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:43.199 perhaps do a tiny imperceptible butt dance. And again the 51 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:46.240 episode will help you and anyone you talk to about 52 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:49.960 it and hopefully decrease collisions that impact wildlife. We're going 53 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:56.080 to cover bumpy roads, wildlife using crosswalks, skunk stench, moose impacts, 54 00:02:56.360 --> 00:02:59.960 deer crossing signs, the most dangerous animals on the planet, 55 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:05.719 laser fences, highway tunnels, lush overpasses, beloved cougars, asolot facts, 56 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:08.840 What to do if you see roadkill, how to avoid 57 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:11.560 making more of it, and whether it's okay to pick 58 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:14.639 up a dead thing and to eat it. With author, 59 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:18.560 environmental scientist and Honorary Rhotocologist Ben Goldfarb. 60 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:39.719 My name is Ben Goldfarb, and he him. 61 00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:44.159 I have been waiting to talk to you for literal years. Benjamin, 62 00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:46.639 It's been so long. 63 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:47.120 I know. 64 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:50.719 I feel like we've been discussing this possibility forever, and 65 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:54.800 you guys so patiently waited for this book to wind 66 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:58.199 its way through the publication pipeline. I'm really grateful that 67 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:00.759 you guys didn't find somebody else about this topic. 68 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:04.479 There's no one else I'd rather talk fresh roadkill or 69 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:07.319 old roadkill. So this is a pretty big day for 70 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:10.639 me and for roadkill in general. First question off the bat, 71 00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:14.120 how does one end up studying roadkill? I know that 72 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:16.160 you get asked this at every dinner party. How did 73 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:17.480 you end up writing a book about this? 74 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:20.800 Yeah, it's a really good question. I'm not even sure 75 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:22.720 what the answer is. I think, I mean, certainly part 76 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:27.000 of it was seeing ways to prevent roadkill. You know, 77 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:29.879 I had this really formative experience a decade ago. In 78 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:33.680 October of twenty thirteen. I was in Montana, you know, 79 00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:36.680 working as an environmental journalist, looking for things to write about, 80 00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:40.639 and I ended up getting a tour of these wildlife crossings, 81 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:44.600 you know, these overpasses and underpasses that let animals safely 82 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.439 navigate highways. This was on Highway ninety three north of Missoula, 83 00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:50.800 and that was just such a cool experience. You know, 84 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:54.040 I hadn't really thought a whole lot about roadkill and 85 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:56.560 about all the problems that roads create, but seeing these 86 00:04:56.600 --> 00:05:01.519 structures that were designed to prevent that tragedy from happening 87 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:04.720 just sort of caused me to think about this problem 88 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:05.279 in a new way. 89 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:07.920 And you know, I know that road well. My dad 90 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:11.000 is from Montana. I've driven ninety three many times. And 91 00:05:11.319 --> 00:05:13.600 one thing that's interesting about roads in Montana is all 92 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:17.560 the white crosses. Are you familiar with those? Oh yeah, certainly, yeah, 93 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:20.639 which is really a stark and kind of gutting reminder 94 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:23.480 of how many fatal accidents have been on that road. 95 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:26.079 It really makes you slow down. Okay, So, if you've 96 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:29.040 never seen these, they are these small white metal crosses 97 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:31.160 planted on the side of the road, and there's one 98 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:33.639 to mark each fatality at the site it happened. So 99 00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:37.040 every time you see one, I mean, it's impossible not 100 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:40.480 to imagine the shattered glass and the wrecked metal and 101 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:43.879 the grieving families. And I've seen clusters of them at 102 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:47.519 a time, And there are memorials near tricky bends in 103 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:50.600 the highway that have crops of markers up to like 104 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:53.879 sixteen in one place, and some groups are opposed to 105 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:58.319 them for understandable reasons across may very well not represent 106 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:02.000 the faith of the victims. Also, they're a bummer, But 107 00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:05.199 the American Legion has been putting these up in Montana 108 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:08.439 since early nineteen fifties to do just that, to scare 109 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:11.959 the shit out of me personally and millions of other 110 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:15.040 people so that they drive more carefully in order to 111 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:19.639 spare more human lives. Did that have any impact as well, 112 00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:23.319 just knowing that those roads are dangerous to humans as 113 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:24.800 well as wildlife. 114 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:27.040 Yeah, you know what, it certainly didn't. I think that 115 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:29.000 they're I mean, they're dangerous for a lot of the 116 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:33.600 same reasons. Right, They're these winding rural highways that people 117 00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:36.600 tend to drive too fast on, and you know, often 118 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:41.199 wildlife is probably related to those human fatalities as well, Right, 119 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:43.519 I mean, there's something like four hundred drivers killed in 120 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:46.680 deer crashes every year. I think Montana is the second 121 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:52.160 highest state in the country for per capita wildlife vehicle collisions, Right, 122 00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:55.160 there are lots of animals on the landscape, so certainly 123 00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:58.160 that roadkill is a it's a danger to humans as well. 124 00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:01.839 And I've had, you know, state troopers say things like, 125 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:05.279 you know, look, there are four hundred dead drivers every 126 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:07.839 year that we know of. But oftentimes when you come 127 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:10.480 upon a single car accident with a fatality, you know, 128 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:12.240 we don't know why that occurs, but that could be 129 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:14.759 somebody who veered for a moose or an elk and 130 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:17.680 hit a tree or flipped or something like that. So 131 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:21.639 I think that link between human safety and wildlife safety 132 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:23.040 is a really close one. 133 00:07:23.120 --> 00:07:25.839 So there's a September twenty twenty three report about just 134 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:29.120 this animal impacts and it was issued by State Farm 135 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:33.519 Insurance and the headline screams November is still the most 136 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:36.680 dangerous month, with an estimated two hundred and ninety seven 137 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:40.439 thousand collisions, and they're talking about wildlife. So over the 138 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:44.519 last year, one point eight million Americans filed insurance claims, 139 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:48.839 apparently because they slammed into a non human creature. But 140 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:52.720 the national odds of hitting an animal annually is one 141 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:54.959 in one hundred and twenty seven. But if you'd like 142 00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:57.920 to avoid it at all, costs. I guess you could 143 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:01.120 ride a bike, or you could move to Arizona, where 144 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:04.560 you have a one in five hundred annual chance of 145 00:08:04.680 --> 00:08:08.680 an animal vehicle collision, and West Virginia I am sorry, 146 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:13.000 but one in thirty eight for y'all. Montana unsurprisingly held 147 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:16.240 the number two spot, with one in fifty three people 148 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:19.120 getting into an accident with an animal. And if you 149 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:22.519 can't just up and move to Arizona because your spouse 150 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:25.959 and children would feel abandoned or whatever, then you can 151 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:30.040 take other measures. You can be careful in the riskier situations, 152 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:33.840 like driving at dusk. You can watch out for herd animals, 153 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:38.120 which tend to travel in posseas naturally, and of course, 154 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:41.440 do not scroll on your exos social media if the 155 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:46.159 long drive gets boring. As humans driving cages of reinforced 156 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:50.720 steel are chances of survival much higher than a bunnies. 157 00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:53.919 So when Ben was writing the book, how did he 158 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:57.679 balance the focus between the impact on humans versus the 159 00:08:57.720 --> 00:09:00.360 impact on the wildlife question? 160 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:02.360 I mean, I think that it's hard to separate those things. 161 00:09:02.360 --> 00:09:05.519 You know, so much of the history of studying roadkill 162 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:08.399 is really about human safety. It's kind of it's interesting 163 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:11.960 to trace the history of rhad ecology, this field of science, 164 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:14.279 you know, which really begins in the nineteen twenties with 165 00:09:14.840 --> 00:09:18.240 the proliferation of the car, and early biologists are fretting 166 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:20.960 about all of the garter snakes and ground hogs and 167 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:25.120 the woodpeckers being killed by this fearsome new technology. But 168 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:28.320 then the car kind of becomes this accepted fact of 169 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:32.519 the American landscape and people stop thinking about it until 170 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:37.039 the nineteen sixties when deer populations explode. You know, deer 171 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:40.039 were almost hunted to extinction in the nineteenth century, and 172 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:42.879 then in the mid twentieth century they start making a comeback, 173 00:09:42.919 --> 00:09:46.600 and people are driving farther and faster than ever, and 174 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:52.080 suddenly there are these large mammals blundering onto new interstate 175 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:55.240 highways and really causing a risk to human safety. And 176 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:59.279 that's really when rhad ecology as a field truly takes off. 177 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:03.519 And it is aren't necessarily in concern for wildlife, although 178 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:05.960 certainly that's a big part of it. Its origins are 179 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:11.080 really in concern for human safety, specifically due to deer collisions. 180 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:14.240 So I find that fascinating that this discipline is sort 181 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:17.919 of intimately tied to human safety almost from the. 182 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:21.200 Advent that makes sense, I mean in terms of also 183 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:27.519 westward expansion and American colonialism, I feel like maybe we 184 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:31.840 look at things from a human centered lens a lot, 185 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:38.080 just a hunch, but no kidding. Also, did killing off 186 00:10:38.120 --> 00:10:40.519 wolves have a lot to do with that explosion of deer? 187 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:43.000 That was definitely, I mean, that was part of it. 188 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:45.240 You know, deer, we're coming back into this landscape that 189 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:49.399 lacked wolves and cougars and all of the historic predators 190 00:10:49.399 --> 00:10:51.759 that would have controlled their populations. I think a big 191 00:10:51.799 --> 00:10:53.840 part of it was also the rise of the suburb. 192 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:57.159 You know, suburbs are amazing deer habitat right, So many 193 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:02.919 Northeastern suburbs have much higher deer populations than forests did 194 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:06.919 prior to European arrival, which is pretty amazing to think about. 195 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:09.159 And of course the suburbs are this creation of the 196 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:11.519 car in a lot of ways. Right in the mid 197 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:15.480 twentieth century, the interstate highways are funneling people away from 198 00:11:15.559 --> 00:11:20.159 cities and into suburbs, and this whole car culture oriented 199 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:24.720 around the suburb is emerging and sort of beckoning to 200 00:11:25.240 --> 00:11:27.840 whitetail deer, which are kind of bouncing back from their 201 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:31.799 own brush with extirpations. So I find that really interesting too, 202 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:37.200 right that cars created a landscape that was prime for 203 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:42.200 deer and then caused collisions between drivers and those same animals. 204 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:44.519 And for more on wolf populations, you can see the 205 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:49.000 Lupinology episode about wolves, and you can prepare to celebrate 206 00:11:49.399 --> 00:11:52.360 the finest holiday of the year on November twenty third, 207 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:56.159 which is Wolfanut. It celebrates the spirit of the wolf 208 00:11:56.559 --> 00:12:00.159 who brings and hides small gifts around the house for everyone, 209 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:03.000 especially people who have dogs and are kind to dogs. 210 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:05.320 They get better gifts than anyone else. And you eat 211 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:08.519 roast meat because wolves eat meat, or roasted veggies if 212 00:12:08.559 --> 00:12:11.240 you like. And you make a cake that's decorated like 213 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:14.120 a full moon. And this according to the seven year 214 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:17.000 old New Zealander who invented wolf in newt just a 215 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:20.440 few years ago, not realizing that it would become a 216 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:25.000 global November twenty third celebration, one which I myself enjoy. 217 00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:27.639 I have hid new pairs of socks around the house 218 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:30.600 for dinner guests to hunt like Easter eggs, and my 219 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:33.440 full moon cake was ugly but delicious. Now on the 220 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:37.080 topic of wolves prey, though, we of course, have an 221 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:41.120 excellent two parter Deer episode featuring not one but two 222 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:45.559 cervidologists named Rhannon What Are the Odds, which addresses all 223 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:49.879 kinds of stuff like whether or not deer eat birds alive. 224 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:52.720 I mean, be honest with me, are deers the ones 225 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:54.440 getting creamed the most? 226 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:57.240 Deer? Yeah, I mean, deer are definitely they're the ones 227 00:12:57.279 --> 00:13:00.440 getting creamed the most visibly. I would say, I think 228 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:03.919 between one and two million deer killed every year. And 229 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:07.159 you know, obviously the vast majority of those collisions are 230 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:10.200 not fatal to the driver but fatal to the deer. 231 00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:12.799 So deer are definitely getting creamed. But you know, there 232 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:16.200 are also lots of squirrels and apostums and raccoons, all 233 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:18.080 of the critters that we've all seen by the side 234 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:20.240 of the highway. And you know, I think that in 235 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:22.559 part because the animals that we tend to see are 236 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:24.799 the really common ones. You know, we don't really think 237 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:30.919 about roadkill as being a true biodiversity and conservation crisis, right, 238 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:33.879 but there are lots of rarer species as well, Florida 239 00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:37.320 panthers and oslots and tiger salamanders. You know, all of 240 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:40.519 these animals that because they're so rare, we don't see 241 00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:43.039 them dead by the side of the road. And yet 242 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:45.879 for these these very threatened and endangered species, you know, 243 00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:48.080 roadkill really is an existential crisis. 244 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:51.440 Okay, So, first off, oslots are native to North and 245 00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:55.039 Central America. I had no idea for starters. Okay, So, 246 00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:59.080 an oscelot is a bobcat sized, spotted little cutie with 247 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:02.320 a kitten face. It weighs twenty to thirty pounds. It's 248 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:05.080 like the size of a large main coon, which is 249 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:08.519 like having a real hairy toddler with knives in its face. 250 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:12.000 And I thought oslots like maybe lived in North Africa 251 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:15.720 or Central Asia. Nope, they live in like Texas south 252 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:18.480 of the Alamo, but not many. So forty percent of 253 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:22.879 Texas oslot deaths have been attributed to human traffic collisions, 254 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:27.600 and now there are only sixty to eighty Texas oscelots 255 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:30.679 left in the wild. And yes, if you think some 256 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:33.240 people keep them as pets, you are correct, most notably 257 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:37.480 surrealist painter and Mustache have her Salvador Deli. But before 258 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:40.279 you decide to dip into like tiger king culture, be 259 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:44.279 aware that your friend Wikipedia warns that osceolots might demand 260 00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:47.200 a lot of attention and have a tendency to suck 261 00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:50.240 on things, and this can lead them to accidentally ingest 262 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:54.559 objects such as tennis balls, which is so specific I 263 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:58.399 can only imagine that the editor of that page added 264 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:01.480 it in shame after a close call and an exotic 265 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:04.240 vet bill. I don't know what happened, but oslot's keep 266 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:08.080 them in the wild. Also, Florida panthers send him good vibes, man, 267 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:12.240 because a September CBS news headline says it all kind 268 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:16.720 of with a heaving sigh. Another endangered Florida panther struck 269 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:19.879 and killed by vehicle, the sixty second such fatality since 270 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.159 twenty twenty one, it reads, and apparently Florida panthers had 271 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:26.840 the distinct honor of being one of the first critters 272 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:30.240 on the nineteen seventy three endangered species list. After hunting 273 00:15:30.759 --> 00:15:34.000 just struck a massive blow to their population and now 274 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:37.279 there's less than two hundred and fifty Florida panthers in 275 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:41.399 the wild. Ten percent of their entire population is killed 276 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:45.159 each year in crashes with cars. Florida panthers don't deserve this. 277 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:47.919 They should be going on motor boats and getting sun 278 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:51.360 damage at Margarita happy hours like the rest of the state. 279 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:54.759 But listen, these are the realities, and there is hope, 280 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:57.120 which we discussed later. I'm not just trying to bum 281 00:15:57.240 --> 00:15:59.919 you out. Who comes to your book readings? I got 282 00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:03.080 to ask you, just did a book tour. Do the 283 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:05.440 people that you encounter there do they pull you aside 284 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:09.279 and confess to you like you're a priest, about accidental 285 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:13.759 squirrel collisions they've had or hitting a turtle in their teens? 286 00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:14.840 Do you get that a lot? 287 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:17.919 It's so funny us that I have compared myself to 288 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:22.240 a priest taking confession on multiple occasions, because yeah, I mean, 289 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:25.360 everybody's had this experience and they want to tell somebody 290 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:29.440 about it. I think there's something so distressing and disorienting 291 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:31.840 about hitting an animal too. You don't exactly know what 292 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.919 to do when it happens. I told a friend about 293 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:36.960 the premise of this book a few years ago, long 294 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:39.120 before it came out, and he told me that he 295 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:43.440 had recently hit a squirrel and was so bewildered and 296 00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:45.919 confused in the moment that he just panicked and called 297 00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:49.039 nine to one one, which of course is not the 298 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:51.399 right reaction, and I think they hung up on him, 299 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:54.039 as they probably should have. But I think that just 300 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:58.159 a tests to what a weird and saddening and confusing 301 00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:00.000 experience it can be to hit an animal. 302 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:01.440 Have you ever hit anything? 303 00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:04.920 Sure? Yeah, I've hit all kinds of creators. I'm ashamed 304 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:08.200 to say. I most recently, I killed an owl that 305 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:10.640 was a few weeks ago in Colorado where I live, 306 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:13.519 and it just swooped across the highway in the middle 307 00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:15.359 of the night and hit the top of the windshield, 308 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:18.720 and you know, I assume it was killed. I did 309 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:22.319 go back to briefly look for it, but couldn't find it. Yeah, 310 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:24.640 so that was really hard. I don't know what. Have 311 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:25.079 you ever hit? 312 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:29.319 Ali, Well, I hit a deer once and high school 313 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:32.200 not long after I got my license. I grew up 314 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:33.759 in a suburb with a lot of deer, and you'd 315 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:37.640 always hear collisions. And I had an ap biology teacher, Odie, 316 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:40.839 who whenever someone would hit a deer, they'd call him 317 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:42.759 instead of nine to one one and he would come 318 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:47.319 out and flay the deer, take the venison, take the hide. 319 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:49.960 And I saw him. There was one that was hit 320 00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:53.200 near school, and so he took us out to have 321 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:55.680 a look at it, and I remember's belly was covered 322 00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:57.680 in ticks, but he showed us what to do with it, 323 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:01.720 which was uncommon. They have to be pretty fresh. But 324 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:04.359 I hit a deer once and the deer hit me. 325 00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:07.480 The impact was on the side of the car, and 326 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:10.160 so when I told my parents, like, the deer hit me, 327 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:12.480 they did not believe me at first, but then they're like, well, 328 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:14.599 it is on the side panel, So what are you 329 00:18:14.599 --> 00:18:17.119 gonna do? But what if you don't have an ode 330 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:19.599 in your life, and you definitely shouldn't call nine one one? 331 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:23.680 What is the best protocol if there's been a collision. 332 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:27.279 Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, certainly you could 333 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:30.720 call the local the sheriff's department out here, you know 334 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:33.359 in the West, or the police department just to report 335 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:36.279 that incident, but you know they're not gonna do anything. 336 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:39.400 I mean, I think the most common response is you 337 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:41.759 don't really do anything. I mean, if the animal has 338 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:43.640 done damage to the vehicle, you know there's going to 339 00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:46.519 be an insurance claim, right, and then that will become 340 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:50.279 a data point for somebody potentially. But the most common 341 00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:53.759 reaction is probably just keep driving, which is part of 342 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:57.960 why this problem is so hard to grapple with in 343 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:01.160 some ways and to grasp because these incidents generally are 344 00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:05.279 not being noted or observed or recorded in any way, 345 00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:07.359 and as a result, we don't really have a lot 346 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:11.279 of great data about what a significant toll roadkill is 347 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:12.440 taking on biodiversity. 348 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:17.640 I was curious, since Ben covered so many species and ecologies, 349 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:22.440 if he had to track down possome researchers and deer 350 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:26.680 teams and like a clique of panther people, a frog squad, etc. 351 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:31.960 Did he have to collect a mosaic of data? And 352 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:34.400 is his contact list the best? 353 00:19:34.759 --> 00:19:38.759 Rhadycology this term that was coined in the nineteen nineties 354 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:41.480 by Richard Foreman and a cologist at Harvard. You know, 355 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.759 at first it was this very niche subject that only 356 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:46.680 a handful of people in the country had heard of, 357 00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:49.400 let alone practiced. But today you can go to these 358 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:52.960 rhad ecology conferences that have thousands of people in attendance. 359 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:55.559 So it's certainly interdisciplinary. It touches upon a lot of 360 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:59.559 different fields, but it's also a distinct discipline in its 361 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:02.920 own right that you know, increasingly has people who self 362 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:04.640 identify as rhodecologists. 363 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:06.519 Do any of them come to you like, Hey, Ben, 364 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:08.200 what's the deal with this? Can you hook me up 365 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:08.799 with this person? 366 00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:11.440 So people do say, you know, hey, I'm working on 367 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:14.119 you know, mule deer over here in this state. You know, 368 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:17.880 what are people doing about moos over in that state? 369 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:19.279 And you know, is there anything that we can learn 370 00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:21.680 from those guys? And I've definitely been able to put 371 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:24.799 different sources of mine in touch because the field has 372 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:28.680 become so large and dispersed and atomized in some ways 373 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:30.640 that not everybody knows what everybody else is working on. 374 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:32.440 And it's nice to be able to play that kind 375 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:34.640 of interstitial role sometimes. 376 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:39.000 Did you want to focus on different countries, different species? 377 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:41.039 How did you break it down? And why do I 378 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:44.599 feel like Australia has the most roadkill? That's just absolutely 379 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:45.039 a hunch. 380 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:48.960 No, I think you're You're totally right, But actually Tasmania 381 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:52.359 is considered the roadkill capital of the world. It has 382 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:54.599 some of the highest roadkill rates ever recorded. I know, 383 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:57.400 super sad, right to think about all of those wallabies 384 00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:00.200 and wombats. Those are like the coolest critters and and 385 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:01.680 that was actually one of the places that I went 386 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:04.599 and working on this book was Tasmania the road kill Capital, 387 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:07.000 and they're One of the amazing things is that, of course, 388 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:10.680 because those animals are marsupials, right, they're carrying their babies 389 00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:13.400 in their little pouch. What happens often is that the 390 00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:15.640 mother will be killed by a car, but the Joey, 391 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:18.599 the baby will actually survive in the pouch. So there 392 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:23.720 are hundreds of wildlife rehabilitators in Tasmani who just drive 393 00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:27.799 around the countryside looking for dead animals, checking their pouches 394 00:21:28.119 --> 00:21:31.559 and extracting the joey's the babies within, and then raising 395 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:34.160 them to adulthood over a couple of years, which is 396 00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:39.519 just this amazing, heartbreaking, beautiful inspiring practice. You know, we're 397 00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:42.559 so used to just driving past roadkill all the time. 398 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:45.039 That was really incredible to go to a place where 399 00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:48.079 people actually notice it and even seek it out. 400 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:51.960 Do those animals that are raised by rehabbers do they 401 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:54.119