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Speaker 1: Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster

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movies and psychoanalyze them. My name is Brittany Brownfield and

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I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by.

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Speaker 2: Ben Stover, individual therapist.

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Speaker 3: Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists.

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Speaker 1: We're all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists,

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who practice out of Chicago. Even though we are licensed

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mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for entertainment purposes

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and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture and

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all forms.

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Speaker 2: Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,

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we aren't your therapist.

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Speaker 4: If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find

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a local mental health provider.

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Speaker 2: Hello everyone, and welcome to today's episode of Popcorn Psychology.

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Today we are going to be talking about the two

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thousand and nine Oscar nominated film District Nine. This is

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our first four into the found footage genre, which was

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popular at the time this movie was out in District Nine.

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The plot of the film is that we see this

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alien population come to Earth and they are all getting

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very sick, and the humans, as they're watching this giant

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ship hover over their city, get really scared and they

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don't know what to do, so they get some prejudiced

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notions about what to do with this population. And when

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they finally decide they're going to open the ship, because

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nothing happens with it after a while, they open it

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and they find an entire population of several million sick aliens,

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and they, rather than try to help them or welcome

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them in, they quarantine them in a slum called District nine,

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which is what the movie is about. Throughout the course

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of this film, there's an agent of a private military

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corporation who's tasked with relocating these aliens to a place

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even further outside of the city of Johannesburg in South Africa,

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to a government tent facility that is we learn later

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substantially worsened, to quote the main character Vickers, basically a

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concentration camp. When he starts telling the truth that he's

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gloriously dissociated away from the harm he is imposing on

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this population through the course of his actions, comes in

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contact with an alien fuel that starts turning him into

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one of the aliens he's been working actively to corral

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and oppress, and we see him have to take on

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some force perspective of what it might be like to

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go from oppressor to one of the oppressed. So in

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today's episode, we'll be covering the psychology of oppression, empathy

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and forced perspective change and like always, treatment and final thoughts.

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So let's get rolling psychology of oppression. What do we

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see in this film that directed our attention that way? Sure?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think immediately we see the use of dehumanization,

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right immediately they talk about the use of even language

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calling them prons because they quote unquote look like prons.

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I don't know how much I would say they look

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like prons, like that's trump right, yeah, But how that

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is used soap in such a specific way in the

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movie that I don't even want to call them prons,

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Like I'm probably gonna call them aliens out of my

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overempathizing with fictional characters. Even we watch Vickars, this person

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who's supposed to be a professional, they're supposed to respect,

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is supposed to be really on top of it, right,

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even the callous, casual nature that he calls them prons

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and the way he is not taking them seriously as

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living creatures. And he's supposed to be the representative taking

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care of them quote unquote.

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Speaker 2: Well, now just say it's the way he's representing himself

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when he wants their cooperation. But it's clear you say,

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he's got casual disrespect for them. Casual disdain. It does

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not them as valid at all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the use of language, the way they talk about

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how odd they are, the way he talks about their culture,

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just right away. No attempt at finding what is similar,

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a lot of attempts at finding what is different and

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making them, Yeah, less of a thoughtful species than us.

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Speaker 2: Unless deserving, less worthy of care, less worthy of decency,

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of respect of privacy, of anything that we might give

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to a intelligent creature. We look at the way he

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does mental gymnastics to enable himself to treat these obviously intelligent,

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advanced creatures as less than.

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Speaker 1: And the way that he's able to use the way

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that they're different, like I said, as part of the

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Deman dehumanization. Like I think a great example is that

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they are a species that seems to pro create via eggs, so.

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Speaker 3: Not mammalian, I guess.

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Speaker 1: And he shows in the very early parts of the film,

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he's showing the camera people, Oh, look, we found a

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nest of eggs I don't know exactly how he talks

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about it, but how they build this whole contraption where

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there's like a cow carcass and the cow carcass feeds

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into the embryo sac or whatever, and the I'm sure

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we're gonna use the word collus a million times in

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this episode, the cowus nature in which he giggly starts

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to unattach it and keeps using the word abort too,

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And it's very ough akey way, the gleeful way, maybe

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that's a better word, the gleeful way, in which he's

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sort of showing off. What are these creature's children in

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their mind?

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Speaker 3: Their babies?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's like, oh, look, we found a nursery

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pretty much of really vulnerable babies, alien.

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Speaker 3: Babies, Hadi haha.

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Speaker 1: Let's start detaching it so that they die, and then

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the slide it on fire, and let's then have some

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fun with the screaming sound that these babies make as

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they die. The way I put it versus the way

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he put it is an example of how we use

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language to change the way that we think about something,

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to create distance from it as part of that dehumanization. Right, Like,

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at no point is he using terminology, the same lexicon

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that human beings that we use to describe the same experience.

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Like I said, he's not saying these are their children,

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you know, these are the sounds they make when they die. Like,

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he's not using any equivocal language that would help us

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feel a connection and common ground with these beings. And

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it's all very like, Look, how weird they are, isn't

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it funny? Isn't it interesting? The very like scientific removal

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as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he alternates between a scientific disinterest and explanations of

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their ways and anatomy to malice and casual disgust at

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everything that's different. And why he's doing that is it's

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part of the process that humans go through when they're

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othering something, because humans are at their worst when they

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see something as different from themselves. The director was talking

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about in interviews he did about how he wanted to

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make the aliens be like on four legs and look

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a little more insectoid, but oh they couldn't because people

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wouldn't identify with them just because of our psychology and

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recognizing how potent that is that their bipedal and that

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they have eyes in the front that emote like ours do.

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Allows the audience to identify with them in ways that

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Vickers is refusing to. And Vickers and everyone else is

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that's wandering around casually shooting them and harming them, aborting

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their children, is.

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Speaker 4: Just terrorizing them, just terrorizing them on a regular basis.

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Speaker 2: And forcing them to eat animal scraps and cat food,

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not taking one single opportunity to welcome them into society,

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to integrate them anything, nothing, just lesser than and separate.

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And we see Brittany's talking about it. It's a complete

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process of separating them out and making them different and

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worse than you without making any efforts to connect to

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how they're the same. And that's the same process humans

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go through anytime they do anything atrocious. We see one

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of the most classic lines of cinema ever. It puts

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the lotion in the basket, or it gets the hose again,

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the use of the word it it dehumanizing. Serial Killers

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routinely dehumanize their victims. They don't use their names. They're

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just the whore or whatever else. They aren't people. And

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you see it over and over and over again in

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this movie, where they look at the aliens and just

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call them prawns and don't take any effort to care

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about what makes them special. They're just looking to exploit

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whatever they brought with them and get rid of them

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as quickly as possible, to take a break here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think what is also interesting in that it's been

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like twenty some years since they landed. That's an interesting

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choice on the writing of the movie because we're also

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witnessing Vickers as sort of the second generation. He's like

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the first generation that's grown up with the aliens. Yes,

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so the full integration since a kid of these ideas

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of how they're less than Look, there's a sign over there,

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no aliens over here, only humans over here. So he's

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been fully indoctrinated into this dehumanization, which also probably accounts

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for his casual nature of the slur on the casual,

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very unempathetic, almost antisocial energy he has about their safety,

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their livelihood, their ability to love their children. So, I

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mean that's a big part of it, right, I'm trying

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not to go to bananas with how much this makes

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me think of like American history, Yeah, and the indigenous

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people of America, but how a big part of how

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we also dehumanize people is you devalue their relationship to

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their children so that they're one, so that cultural can't

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be passed down right yep, or that they just can't

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exist period.

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Speaker 3: Because also to the.

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Speaker 1: Dehumanization part of it as well, to understand to really

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let yourself feel that this person could love their children,

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or this being could love their children. That's a think

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of pretty universal feeling right to either love your own

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child or to be loved by your parents. The connection

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we have to family and how deep that is and

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how human I guess that is, and so not letting

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the aliens also have that kind of bond or not

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recognizing it as such, even though they do acknowledge, like

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when he threatens Christopher's child to get him to comply.

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Speaker 3: Mm hmm, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: And but they do that dehumanization there as well, where

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to really recognize when you're the oppressive party, to really

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recognize what you're actually doing to other living creatures, usually

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other human beings. Right, it is a truth that is

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almost impossible to sit with. Part of that is I

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think you were saying earlier, and like also blaming the aliens,

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blaming the other for their situation. Yes, so that was

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a great example where he's like, I'll call CPS basically

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and get your kid taken away, because look at this

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shithole that you're raising your kid in. You don't even

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care about your kid. Why are they in a shithole? Bro? Yeah,

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it's not like they're like, I want to raise my

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kid in this piece of garbage.

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Speaker 3: Yea, this is the only place they can live.

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Speaker 1: So also, the way that an oppressive class will convince

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themselves that the situation that the oppressed are in is

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somehow their faults. Absolutely, because they're too dirty, stupid, whatever

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to get themselves out of it. And so what does

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it matter of the livelihood of their home, their children,

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all that stuff.

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Speaker 3: Who cares? Absolutely? Absolutely?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the way that they do it in this

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film is just so connected to the way that people

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of color have been dehumanized in the United States. And

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it's really and I thought they did a really good

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job of showing that and showing how insidious it is,

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because it isn't just being a racist, It isn't just

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it's also just viewing them as less than period.

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Speaker 2: And that's how humans are, whether it's the United States

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or anywhere else. Humans versus animals, humans versus other humans,

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humans versus the environment, viewing it as less than and

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worse creates a dissociative state that operates under its own

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definitions of things that are often reinforced by whoever's in power.

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And how did the Holocaust happen? The Jews got thoroughly othered.

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If you've ever seen Hotel Rwanda, you see the genocide

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happening between the two season the Hutus in that movie,

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I think I believe so they start calling one the cockroaches.

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Speaker 3: As soon as we're doing that shit, we're done.

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Speaker 1: It makes me think of two how in America they

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used to refer to black people's hair as wool as

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a way to make them more animalistic in our mentality

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because their hair is so different. Oh, their hair is

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made of wool like an animal. It's be sheared basically.

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But white people, our hair is I don't know, made

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of silk or whatever.

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Speaker 3: The fuck? Yeah, actual hairy much.

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Speaker 1: I think the use of the idea of dissociation is

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really interesting because to enact this kind of violence against

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Sentian beings, which is what we're just happening in this movie,

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that is traumatic. Well, it's like you have to chip

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away a bit of your soul and a bit of

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your empathy, right your humanity, every time you have to

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enact this torture, this mistreatment onto another senseient being. I

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think that dissociated nature is a good way to think

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of it. You know, I have to believe that you're

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less than because to fully realize that you are having

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the same love and thoughts that I'm having, how do

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I live with myself? How do I live with the

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trauma I have enforced? And or I felt like I

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was just falling orders that classic line that I felt

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like to make sure that I was safe, I had

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to enact on you. I'm watching the show Warrior right

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now on Netflix, which also made me think. I was

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thinking of that when I was watching this. I don't

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know if you've so watched it, Ben, you freakin love Itace.

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Speaker 3: It's Bruce lee esque. It's a movie.

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Speaker 1: It's a show actually he thought of and then he

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died before he could make it, oh or as he

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was trying to make it. So it feels very bruce

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ly esque that it came out just a few years ago.

255
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It just finished I think last year, but that's about

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when the Chinese immigrated to America, specifically San Francisco, California,

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for the railroad and the cultural wars happening between the

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white rich people that got there first the Irish who

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feel now they feel disenfranchised because the Chinese have showed

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up and.

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Speaker 3: They're getting all the work right.

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Speaker 1: The way that they use the same language the same

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distancing themselves and I think also a great way to

264
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do that to is language too. In this movie, there's

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that language divide where you can clearly hear that the

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aliens are very smart when they show the subtitles of

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them speaking.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they're aware of what's going on. They're capable.

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They're just in a destitute situation. So they're responding to

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a destitute situation as one does, as anyone or any

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creature ever does, because all living creatures contain similar brain

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structures at some levels, and we're all hardwired to do

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one thing above all else, survive. It will adapt to anything,

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because that is our prime directive, survive. And just because

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you've manufactured a situation that requires them to be in

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a constant survival state does not, in fact mean they

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are not capable of thriving. And that has been a

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problematic narrative that exists anytime there's othering an oppression going on,

279
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and you know, we're mentioned like the horror of like

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how these people can't love their children enough. Pretty sure,

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just a few years ago we saw a family separation

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policy of anybody arriving on the southern border in our country.

283
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Oh yeah, yet again, like, well, they wouldn't have brought

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their children on such a dangerous certain they can't possibly

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love their children.

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Speaker 1: Enough, as if you can't make the one step mental

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leap of well, if they had to bring their children

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through this situation, to go through all this stuff, and

289
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they must have been trying to save their children from something.

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Speaker 2: Horrible, right, whatever they are escaping they interpreted as worse

291
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than the journey, so understanding how backwards and broken and

292
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what kind of horrible things humans can do to other

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living creatures that they justify and create this ability to

294
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completely shut out the intelligent sentient feeling life. Animals don't

295
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have feelings. It's okay to kill them. It's fine that

296
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migrants are being housed in shitty conditions, left to sleep

297
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on police station floors. It's fine that they're being busted

298
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all over the place for like fifteen hours by the

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governor of Texas rather than care for them. You know

300
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that kind of stuff. And these are things that I

301
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witnessed firsthand. Is working where I do. Seeing people showed

302
00:19:04,519 --> 00:19:07,400
up and there was there just wasn't anything. It's not

303
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:13,279
that anybody was doing something particularly evil to them. Evil

304
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was already done. And it doesn't make it good or right.

305
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,720
But this happens over and over again. Where we see refugees,

306
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where we see genocides, where we see apartheid, living situations,

307
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where we see segregation. All these things throughout history carry

308
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these same notes of dehumanization.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and unfortunately, I think what happened to this movie

310
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would be what happens because if we have this much

311
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trouble with people that pretty much look the same as

312
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you and me, but their skin colors a little different, right,

313
00:19:48,519 --> 00:19:51,240
imagine if an alien life form came down where they

314
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look that much different than us. And like I said,

315
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and then we force them into dehumanizing situations yep, like

316
00:19:59,279 --> 00:20:01,279
living in Islam or I think what I see a

317
00:20:01,279 --> 00:20:05,079
lot in Chicago, begging outside of a Trader Joe's or whatever,

318
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and then we judge them as less human like than

319
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:11,599
us because they do shit like that, Like, but look

320
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:13,079
at them, look how they live, and it's like, well,

321
00:20:13,319 --> 00:20:15,720
like I said earlier, why do they live that way?

322
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Speaker 3: Exactly?

323
00:20:16,559 --> 00:20:19,240
Speaker 1: Because but it helps the person in power. The people

324
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,839
in power continue the narrative of like, I'm this kind

325
00:20:23,839 --> 00:20:27,319
of person, I'm this kind of living thing, and you're

326
00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:31,119
that kind of living thing. And you can't really have

327
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,759
that much going on in your noggin because I'm here

328
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,599
and you're there, idiot, And.

329
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Speaker 2: It's fine that I have like so much more and

330
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,920
you have so much less because it's like your fault.

331
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Speaker 3: Yep.

332
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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean, if your ship didn't break, you know,

333
00:20:50,279 --> 00:20:51,920
like maybe you should have built a better ship. I no,

334
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,200
never mind, we can't figure out interstellar travel at a

335
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,160
substantial rate that would allow that many people of our

336
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,200
population to travel. But like, and we can't make your

337
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,480
weapons work or any things. Like maybe you guys could

338
00:21:03,519 --> 00:21:07,559
just make us able to use your weapons, you know,

339
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,759
and then maybe you'd be cool enough to join the

340
00:21:09,759 --> 00:21:15,000
cool kids club. But probably not actually definitely definitely not well.

341
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Speaker 1: And that's also, among many many things, one of the

342
00:21:20,599 --> 00:21:23,359
great tragedies of this way of thinking, right, kind of

343
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what we talked about the rival, how if you are

344
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,640
working through fear, you will view like a new entity,

345
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a new group as a scary threat, and so then

346
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you try to shove them right, which is absolutely do

347
00:21:35,799 --> 00:21:40,519
in this movie obviously, instead of I don't know, working together,

348
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,000
being curious about their culture, their language, their technology, which

349
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,160
seems to kick our asses.

350
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Speaker 3: If someone has come to us.

351
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Speaker 1: Before we've gone to them, maybe they're scientifically more advanced

352
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than us.

353
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Speaker 2: Absolutely pretty simple.

354
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,160
Speaker 1: What is also, such like I said, tragedy in this movie,

355
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,759
but then also in real life examples, is how much

356
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:07,240
we lose culturally interculturally by not being like, Hey, what

357
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,599
do you guys do within your families? What do you

358
00:22:10,599 --> 00:22:13,240
guys do for the holidays? What is your language? What

359
00:22:13,319 --> 00:22:17,039
are your rituals? What are your knowledge? Clearly Christopher our

360
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,960
main alien with his very that also may think of

361
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:26,160
Native American oppression, like giving them these English ass names. Yeah,

362
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,880
having by Christopher Johnson, I was like, this feels very correct. Unfortunately,

363
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,000
he's obviously a genius. Yeah, I don't know if he's

364
00:22:34,039 --> 00:22:36,240
maybe a regular in terms of how smart all the

365
00:22:36,279 --> 00:22:36,920
aliens are.

366
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Speaker 4: Yea.

367
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Speaker 1: He also I also wouldn't be shocked if he was

368
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like the main engineer of the alien population.

369
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Speaker 4: Yeah.

370
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,559
Speaker 2: And I think they I think they made clear enough

371
00:22:44,599 --> 00:22:48,400
that he's several notches above the average in many respects,

372
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although we don't get a lot of or any of

373
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his history.

374
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Speaker 1: No vaginal I think is correct, because why would he

375
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,839
be vulnerable? Why would he share anything of value with Vickers?

376
00:23:04,279 --> 00:23:07,319
We the humans have shown we will not appreciate it

377
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,519
at best, will weaponize it against him. We will not

378
00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:15,480
hold it with tender hands. No, we will smack it

379
00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:18,039
to the ground and stomp on it and maybe laugh

380
00:23:18,039 --> 00:23:21,160
in your face. I'm curious because, especially in a then

381
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,599
like you've, you talk a lot about the military and

382
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,640
vets and stuff, and I think what this also makes

383
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,839
me think of is the dissociative traumatic nature of people

384
00:23:29,839 --> 00:23:33,640
who get sent overseas and they have to engage in

385
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:38,319
this level of dehumanization with the people within the countries

386
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,319
they have to go in like all the Middle Eastern

387
00:23:41,079 --> 00:23:43,680
stuff that we've grown up with, right, And I know

388
00:23:43,759 --> 00:23:46,279
plenty of people because I grew up near an air

389
00:23:46,319 --> 00:23:50,640
force base, near military where they have PTSD because they

390
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,240
had to shoot a mother and kill her and could

391
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,839
tell that it was a mom, and how they had

392
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,440
to do that mental gymnastics internally of life, like I

393
00:24:00,559 --> 00:24:03,119
have to think of her as less than my mom,

394
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,960
because I am being put in this position where I'm

395
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,599
supposed to treat her like a target and not a person.

396
00:24:09,599 --> 00:24:11,079
Speaker 3: And how that does fuck with people?

397
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 1: Obviously, because it's a very famous statistic, how much people

398
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,559
in military of PTSD after the fact.

399
00:24:18,759 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it's an extraordinarily complicated situation to be in,

400
00:24:23,039 --> 00:24:27,240
knowing you're going into someone else's land and they don't

401
00:24:27,279 --> 00:24:31,240
want you there, and if they perceive you as a threat,

402
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:32,960
they're going to treat you like a threat up to

403
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,440
and including outright killing you immediately. And at some point

404
00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:39,720
you have to make a decision whether you're going to

405
00:24:39,759 --> 00:24:43,359
survive because here you are in someone else's space. But

406
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,000
how are you justifying that you're there? What's the noble purpose?

407
00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:50,960
Et cetera? How true does it feel right now when

408
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,640
I have to pull the trigger against someone else who's

409
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,160
going to kill me if I don't kill them, And

410
00:24:56,319 --> 00:24:59,839
all of the situation manufactured or not, depending on you know,

411
00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:03,920
which timeframe we're looking at, who's deciding what, who are

412
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,720
we identifying with right why this is okay or not? Yeah,

413
00:25:07,759 --> 00:25:09,960
you know, and all of that is a lot of

414
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,680
work for veterans to have to do in anyone, anyone

415
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,200
who encounters that life or death moment that at this point,

416
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,160
regardless of what this person's situation is, who they are,

417
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,720
what they're doing, they are going to kill me. If

418
00:25:23,759 --> 00:25:26,880
I don't kill them, you can and have to shut

419
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,119
all that out in that second you're reacting. Gunfights aren't

420
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,960
very long. Movies are bullshit. I've watched a lot of

421
00:25:34,039 --> 00:25:39,039
videos of very very real gunfights. They're not long. Of

422
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,759
my job, not for entertainment of specify here.

423
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,759
Speaker 1: Right, I'm saying that because me and Hannah just made

424
00:25:43,759 --> 00:25:46,000
a weird look in his direction, like what, yeah, you

425
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:47,200
do that free time, buddy?

426
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that makes way more sense, That makes me

427
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:50,559
more sense.

428
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, of course, sometimes as part of the debriefing process, right,

429
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,079
see videos of these things, and you realize movies dramatize

430
00:25:59,599 --> 00:26:03,559
things that happen in seconds, and then people spend their

431
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,200
entire life learning the rest of the details that they

432
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,359
couldn't know in that second, or maybe did know and

433
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,799
had to unplug from because someone was about to kill them.

434
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,279
There's that prime directive again, that's going to win. Somebody

435
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,839
is going to lose that situation and your mission, no

436
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,200
matter who you are or who that person is across

437
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,799
from you is to not lose. It's very simple, but

438
00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:31,480
it gets really complicated when that dissociation turns back off.

439
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,400
And I think seeing how that plays out in this

440
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,359
film is part of what makes it so powerful. And

441
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,279
God had an Oscar nomination for Best Pictures. They have

442
00:26:39,319 --> 00:26:42,079
to flip in this film where Vickers goes through all this,

443
00:26:42,559 --> 00:26:46,400
he's a Michael Scott type character. He's just so aloof

444
00:26:46,519 --> 00:26:50,240
to anything and just like, oh, yeah, it's fine, everything's fine.

445
00:26:50,279 --> 00:26:51,559
It's fine. If I do this, it's fine. If I

446
00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:54,160
sexually harass everybody, it's fine. If I body shame people,

447
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,000
it's fine. If I do all these things that we

448
00:26:56,079 --> 00:26:58,599
see Michael Scott do as a clown. But Vickers isn't

449
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,119
a clown. Vickers is a reper presentation of every system

450
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,599
of oppression that's ever been especially in particular those that

451
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,000
existed in South Africa. Seeing as this is a South

452
00:27:09,039 --> 00:27:13,079
African director telling a South African story about apartheid and

453
00:27:13,599 --> 00:27:16,599
District six, which is a real place where something very

454
00:27:16,599 --> 00:27:17,400
similar happened.

455
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: I think also the other thing I wanted to note about,

456
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,839
like the psychology of being the oppressor that I saw

457
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,720
in this movie was the performance of cooperation.

458
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 2: Well, before we do that, let's take a quick break

459
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:34,920
and we'll get into that, because I think that's a

460
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,720
lovely thing. But let's take a break here and go.

461
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the performance of cooperation is such an interesting

462
00:27:42,279 --> 00:27:49,319
thing that we will do as humans to also justify

463
00:27:49,799 --> 00:27:53,359
or to make right in our heads why we're doing

464
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,799
what we're doing. And what I mean by that in

465
00:27:55,839 --> 00:28:03,759
this movie specifically, is how their way of forcing out

466
00:28:04,079 --> 00:28:09,759
this group of beings aliens and putting them into basically,

467
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:15,079
at best of reservation, at worst, a concentration camp, right, Yeah,

468
00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:19,759
is to call it an eviction and to have them

469
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:27,680
sign eviction notices as if this is a bureaucratic situation.

470
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 2: Right, it's a contracted space that everybody's agreed to certain

471
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,519
rules and they haven't been paying. So admit, you got

472
00:28:35,519 --> 00:28:35,759
to go.

473
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, the performance of we're going around and we're going

474
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,519
to have them sign this piece of paper for what.

475
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, it doesn't. It just doesn't make any sense. And

476
00:28:46,839 --> 00:28:48,880
I think it's a way. I think it's another way

477
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,200
for them to show power and to be like, we

478
00:28:51,279 --> 00:28:53,079
are the ones who control where you live. We're the

479
00:28:53,119 --> 00:28:55,440
ones who control because it doesn't make any sense. Also

480
00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:00,440
that they would be getting evicted from an outside space. Yes, well,

481
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,839
like that's really odd in general as well.

482
00:29:03,319 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: It just is the way that a certain kind of

483
00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:11,319
human being. I think a lot of times why people

484
00:29:11,839 --> 00:29:14,839
which whatever anyone can thus different thoughts can I don't

485
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:21,200
email me will lean on structure like a dance to

486
00:29:21,359 --> 00:29:24,839
legitimize things. This idea of well, we got their signature,

487
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,359
though they signed it, so they are in compliance. They

488
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:36,559
are complying with this relocation from a shanty town, a slum,

489
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:43,519
to this reservation, this concentration camp. That way that later

490
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,160
they can look at these papers and tell themselves a

491
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:53,240
story about what happened, as if these aliens weren't being

492
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,440
forced to sign with a literal gun to their heads

493
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:02,359
as they are fire bombing their babies, as they are

494
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:07,440
kicking down their homes and threatening their kid. He sends

495
00:30:07,519 --> 00:30:11,640
the Christopher like Christopher, God bless him. He it does

496
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,559
the thing which makes sense, but not in this world, babe,

497
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:16,480
where he's like, well, you're supposed to give me to

498
00:30:16,519 --> 00:30:20,200
one forever. Notice he's trying to play the game. It's interesting, Christopher.

499
00:30:20,279 --> 00:30:21,960
It does seem like he's trying to assimilate little bit.

500
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:22,759
He's wearing clothes.

501
00:30:23,119 --> 00:30:23,519
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

502
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,359
Speaker 1: He's trying to communicate to Vickers, try to like appease

503
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:35,079
his logic. Yeah, and it's heartbreaking because it doesn't fucking matter. Yeah,

504
00:30:35,279 --> 00:30:37,759
what's on that piece of paper literally doesn't matter. It

505
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,160
is a fantasy. It is a piece of make believe

506
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:49,400
that the oppressor can look at to legitimize this situation. Sure,

507
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,440
we're all in agreement. See and then yeah, if later

508
00:30:53,799 --> 00:30:56,880
the UN Court comes into call in, we can say, look,

509
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,359
it was something we did together. Or like one hundred

510
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,200
years from now, when people are reading it in a

511
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,519
history book, they can tell a different story like Trail

512
00:31:04,559 --> 00:31:05,240
of Tears.

513
00:31:05,039 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 3: Wise about how this happened.

514
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,759
Speaker 1: So it's just so interesting how I watched this with

515
00:31:09,799 --> 00:31:12,599
the work we do sometimes, right, how like we systems

516
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,960
will want a certain level of compliant behavior from the

517
00:31:18,039 --> 00:31:21,839
oppressed so that we can feel like everything makes sense

518
00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:23,960
and no one's really doing anything bad because we're all

519
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,480
in this together while working together humanely. Because yeah, evicting

520
00:31:28,519 --> 00:31:32,119
someone having them sign the eviction, it pretends that we're

521
00:31:32,119 --> 00:31:37,400
living in a world of normalcy exactly. Yeah, it literally

522
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,160
doesn't make sense to do that. Other than the fact

523
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,240
that the oppressors in this situation, the humans, they need

524
00:31:44,279 --> 00:31:47,839
that to feel okay, because we all do something to

525
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,319
get a need met, right, So I feel like with that,

526
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,000
it's like they psychologically need something they can look at

527
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,000
that tells a different story, because why not just forcebly

528
00:31:58,039 --> 00:31:59,799
remove them, fucking.

529
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 3: Chuck them where you're going to shut them anyway? Exactly.

530
00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:04,599
Speaker 1: It's just and like having cameras there, it's just so

531
00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:09,319
interesting how we will pretend to act humanly and then

532
00:32:09,359 --> 00:32:11,279
pat ourselves on the back for the performance.

533
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,599
Speaker 3: Soall framework no substance.

534
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 2: Right, Well, and like you brought up that moment of

535
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,880
just casual horror, which is how humans behave where oh

536
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,039
look they got a nest vigors Like, ah, yeah, that's

537
00:32:26,039 --> 00:32:28,119
that's They definitely don't have a permit for this. This

538
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,519
is a noun sanctioned breeding facility or whatever.

539
00:32:30,559 --> 00:32:33,119
Speaker 1: He says, Yeah, Like you're not complying. You're the one

540
00:32:33,119 --> 00:32:34,680
who's not following the rules.

541
00:32:35,119 --> 00:32:38,799
Speaker 3: So I can't. I can't. My hands are tied. My

542
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,279
hands are tied. Could I do exactly?

543
00:32:42,119 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 2: Just I just got to take you to the gallows.

544
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:44,559
Speaker 1: Man.

545
00:32:44,599 --> 00:32:45,079
Speaker 2: I'm sorry.

546
00:32:45,079 --> 00:32:49,759
Speaker 1: That's fallen orders, just fallen orders, babe. And the thing

547
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,160
that's so also horrible about it but real, is that

548
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,720
you're making the rules, babe, you know what I mean? Like,

549
00:32:58,079 --> 00:33:00,680
who who said that you needed a permit? These are

550
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,920
alien creatures that've never been here before you decided they

551
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,680
needed a permit to do that, you know, and you're

552
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,680
making it up so to help you feel better, to

553
00:33:09,799 --> 00:33:12,599
fulfill this cycle that you want to live in.

554
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: Correct, And it's all part of that dissociation, right, that

555
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,880
they have to create some kind of narrative because no

556
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,720
one believes they're the villain in their own story. Hang.

557
00:33:25,759 --> 00:33:29,440
When I took criminal psychology and criminal sociology courses in

558
00:33:29,519 --> 00:33:32,680
undergrad those are the most striking things that I learned

559
00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:36,960
is that nobody thinks they're the bad guy. Yeah, nobody.

560
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,359
Speaker 1: I mean I think about I've watched documentaries where people

561
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,559
have gone to the South nowadays and try to get

562
00:33:46,079 --> 00:33:49,880
Southern white people to acknowledge slavery basically, and they'll say

563
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,880
something along the lines of, well, they had a good

564
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,480
time here, we treated them well, right, like they there's

565
00:33:58,559 --> 00:34:03,359
a narrative that some white people in the South have

566
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,319
around slavery to make that even okay.

567
00:34:07,799 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 3: That a good time.

568
00:34:11,079 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: That's I mean, like, think about the recent things that

569
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,400
what was it Disanta said that, like slavery was good

570
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:17,920
for black people because it taught them a skill.

571
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,039
Speaker 2: I didn't hear that, but it doesn't surprise me. Ugh,

572
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,760
I mean horrible, it's horrible.

573
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,679
Speaker 1: But like, yeah, it's I think it's just continuing of

574
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,840
this mental gymnastics of like I have to.

575
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,039
Speaker 3: Give meaning to this situation.

576
00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 1: I have to make it better because I can't sit

577
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,760
in the discomfort of the fact that I treated another

578
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:42,639
sentient creature, another human being that way. I can't fathom it.

579
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:44,519
I can't deal. So I have to tell myself in

580
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:46,599
story and then I'm gonna tell my kids that story.

581
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,679
And then now we're wearing the Confederate flag and being like,

582
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,840
this is just about uh, our heritage, this has something

583
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:54,119
to do.

584
00:34:54,079 --> 00:34:56,079
Speaker 3: With slavery or racism.

585
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if nothing else, you're wearing the flag

586
00:34:58,440 --> 00:34:59,320
of a loser.

587
00:34:59,519 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 2: So agreed, humans have done this. It's not just our country,

588
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,320
it's not just our people. It's everywhere in any context

589
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,880
where there's power dynamics and somebody's on an agenda and

590
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:17,480
needs to dissociate themselves away from the humanity or the aliveness,

591
00:35:18,119 --> 00:35:18,679
the souls.

592
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 3: I guess maybe would be the words we use of humanity. Yeah,

593
00:35:22,079 --> 00:35:23,519
like you're less human than me.

594
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, they justify doing whatever they want to do. People

595
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,199
in China who died building the Wall and were conscripted

596
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,000
into building the Great Wall of China were literally just

597
00:35:37,199 --> 00:35:40,000
buried and made into mortar in the wall. It just

598
00:35:40,039 --> 00:35:45,400
became part of it. This stuff happens across cultures. It's

599
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,280
white people have their bullshit, but so does every other

600
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,679
type of human. It's just everywhere. Some are worse and

601
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,360
we're more familiar with somemach. This movie was a look

602
00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:01,159
at the evils of apartheid through the lens of aliens,

603
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,719
and it's It was a very real thing for South Africa,

604
00:36:07,199 --> 00:36:09,079
and South Africa is still a kind of a rough place,

605
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:15,159
still not integrated. The people who were brought up to

606
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,960
think a certain way still do. There's still people in

607
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,480
our country who view Japanese Americans is less than There's

608
00:36:23,599 --> 00:36:28,320
a fantastic song by Mike Shinoda of Lincoln Park called

609
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,039
Kenji off Him, one of his solo projects. If you'd

610
00:36:31,039 --> 00:36:34,239
never listen to it, I recommend it. Its powerful to

611
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,079
look at the efforts of this person, to try to

612
00:36:37,159 --> 00:36:40,159
engage with the performance of cooperation, to join the army,

613
00:36:40,199 --> 00:36:41,760
to do all the things, to have the house, to

614
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:43,840
have the business, and still ended up in an internment

615
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,800
camp during World War Two because obviously all of the

616
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,280
Japanese who had moved here hundreds of years ago were

617
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,639
part of the invasion of Pearl Harbor. Because obviously the

618
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,559
mental gymnastics are serious, and the dissociations and the need

619
00:36:57,679 --> 00:37:02,800
to protect the resources of one in group versus another

620
00:37:03,119 --> 00:37:06,199
can really enable humans to do horrible things to each

621
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,159
other and always has and it's scary and it should

622
00:37:09,159 --> 00:37:12,719
frighten us all if we see our leaders knowing all

623
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,519
this in modern times, using dehumanizing language, and it's really

624
00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:22,320
troubling to see it so quickly adopted as normal again.

625
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,920
Mm hmmm, Yeah, does anybody else have anything on that? No,

626
00:37:28,159 --> 00:37:31,440
all right, let's take another break here and we'll move

627
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,679
on to empathy and why that's important.

628
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, empathy is important to talk about because to do

629
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,719
all the things we've been talking about so far, you

630
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,880
have to have an absence of empathy. Because to feel

631
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,280
empathetic for someone is to acknowledge their internal world and

632
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,360
their feelings and their i want to say humanity, which

633
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,760
I don't know if that works in this work situation

634
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,760
where they're aliens. Yeah yeah, we I guess define as

635
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,119
humanity to see that with than them as well, right yeah.

636
00:38:02,159 --> 00:38:06,440
And to do that and to also oppress them impossible,

637
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:08,840
Yeah yeah, impossible.

638
00:38:09,159 --> 00:38:13,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just why it's association, right, like, because it is.

639
00:38:13,119 --> 00:38:13,679
It's impossible.

640
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 3: You're absolutely right, and so we are viewing.

641
00:38:16,519 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 1: Obviously, Vickers be wildly unempathetic, which is why he comes

642
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,760
off like such a fucking asshole. It's horrible, absolutely, and

643
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:26,719
so unlikable, and they're also unlikable.

644
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:27,119
Speaker 2: Yes.

645
00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:32,639
Speaker 1: He goes through a Banana's experience, which is where he's

646
00:38:32,679 --> 00:38:37,679
literally put in the shoes of the beings that he's oppressing,

647
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,400
which doesn't happen typically in the real world, right right,

648
00:38:42,519 --> 00:38:46,039
because you can't change your skin color, you know, unless

649
00:38:46,039 --> 00:38:46,719
you're Rachel Dole.

650
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 2: Is all.

651
00:38:49,599 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: He gets sort of like you kind of put it bend,

652
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:56,639
forced perspective change, forced empathy, which I guess I could

653
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,079
argue is that really empathy if you have to become

654
00:39:00,119 --> 00:39:03,119
the other person, the other being in order to get it.

655
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,199
Speaker 2: I understand your question. Mm hmmm, I don't I think

656
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,360
that's one that's probably been debated in philosophy since forever.

657
00:39:14,679 --> 00:39:16,639
I think I don't know that I would split the

658
00:39:16,639 --> 00:39:18,840
hair in a different song. As there is an understanding

659
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,199
you are being empathic. What causes it to change can

660
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,639
be good route or a not so good route. In

661
00:39:25,639 --> 00:39:29,760
this movie definitely explores the you're gonna walk all of

662
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,960
the miles in all of my shoes and then maybe

663
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,599
you'll get it, and they create an interesting thought experiment

664
00:39:34,639 --> 00:39:38,239
that makes something that's generally, like you said, impossible possible

665
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,199
through the magic.

666
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,760
Speaker 3: Of cinema and science fiction.

667
00:39:43,199 --> 00:39:46,159
Speaker 2: Yes, it isn't usually so possible in real life to

668
00:39:46,199 --> 00:39:51,079
fully take on, except maybe the show we got to

669
00:39:51,119 --> 00:39:56,199
watch and all loved was seeing a very very wealthy

670
00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:01,280
family lose everything, have to go into Shit's creek.

671
00:40:02,039 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 4: Oh shit, Oh Shit's creek. Okay, and wow, I did

672
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,440
not know where you were going there. I was prepared

673
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:14,840
for anything, but not that. Yeah, absolutely absolutely where.

674
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,199
Speaker 2: I think that, at least in the Western world here

675
00:40:19,199 --> 00:40:22,519
where we h habitate, I think that's the most common

676
00:40:22,519 --> 00:40:26,079
example of people having everything and then having nothing that

677
00:40:26,159 --> 00:40:31,800
causes a forced perspective change of oh oh things are

678
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:36,000
hard here or and I think in Sicko. Was that

679
00:40:36,039 --> 00:40:39,039
Michael Moore's movie about like the insurance industry.

680
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 3: The healthcare industry.

681
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 2: Healthcare, Yeah, I believe so, where you would see people

682
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:49,000
who'd been working as insurance adjusters then all of a

683
00:40:49,039 --> 00:40:52,199
sudden have cancer in their family or some kind of

684
00:40:52,199 --> 00:40:58,599
other chronic illness, and then having sat there and clicked no, deny, deny, deny, deny,

685
00:40:59,039 --> 00:41:01,719
and then to realize how terrible it is and how

686
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:06,239
many barriers these gatekeeping things like my favorite friend in

687
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,119
the universe, Telligence, love to put in people's way, and

688
00:41:10,159 --> 00:41:12,760
then have to shift and realize, oh, oh no, this

689
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,920
is fucked up. Like viewing people not on a case

690
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,360
by case basis and having an agenda of getting them

691
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,280
care but rather of saving money is fucked and that

692
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,280
causes a lot of pain. And oh yeah, it was

693
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,559
fine when they were just like case numbers. I was saying, like, oh,

694
00:41:27,679 --> 00:41:30,639
got to keep my ratio click nope, to all of

695
00:41:30,639 --> 00:41:32,920
a sudden it being your family that needs care and

696
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:40,119
the insurance company Daddy's saying, oh, your numbers came up. Sorry, nah,

697
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,400
let's make it difficult and maybe we'll just rule your

698
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,280
care experimental. Sorry, we can't pay for that. But that's

699
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,960
the only thing that'll save my wife's life. Too bad,

700
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,440
it's experimental. We can't pay for it. Sorry, it's just

701
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:53,199
not a good value.

702
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: Well, I think that is a good example of how distance,

703
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,440
like I was talking about, like the bureaucracy, right, yes,

704
00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:03,239
will create a lack of empathy. If I don't have

705
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,760
to see you as an individual person with a full life.

706
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,280
If I view you as a number, as a statistic,

707
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,440
as a piece of paper coming along my desk, then

708
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,280
I don't see you as a real person. Right. We

709
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,760
do struggle to empathize, right, That's why we like to

710
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:27,880
use anecdotal testimonials. And how whenever it's that time again,

711
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,920
voting season in America or anywhere else, there's always that

712
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,440
running gag on snl of. I think al Gore would

713
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:37,280
show like a picture of an old lady, this is

714
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,880
ethel she can't get her prescription drugs. But it's like

715
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,000
the point is trying to make it human, trying to

716
00:42:44,039 --> 00:42:48,679
make it something we can understand in this situation. It

717
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:53,639
is interesting how quickly this is the most total version

718
00:42:54,039 --> 00:42:57,519
of the shoe going on the other foot. Yeah, and

719
00:42:57,559 --> 00:43:02,159
that the whole movie happens over seventy four hours, because

720
00:43:02,159 --> 00:43:05,519
at the very end they go seventy four hours after exposure.

721
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 3: Yeah and yeah, crawling. He looks like Jeff Goldblum in

722
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:10,320
The Fly and.

723
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:13,519
Speaker 2: A human yes right, Yeah.

724
00:43:13,559 --> 00:43:18,320
Speaker 1: And when he's laying in that medical experimental lab and

725
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,000
they're all standing around him talking about him as if

726
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:25,239
he's not there, him getting such a stark real world

727
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,840
individual experience of this is what it feels like to

728
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,320
be not thought of at all, That I am not

729
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,239
even something they feel worthy to talk to, even as

730
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,320
they're talking about me as if I'm like a piece

731
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,960
of a literal piece of meat, a weapon, an advantage,

732
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,440
and how there is no empathy here and I am

733
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,039
not being heard, like the way he's like crying and

734
00:43:50,079 --> 00:43:52,719
he's like, can I talk to my wife? He's trying

735
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,079
to touch I think his father in law and like

736
00:43:56,159 --> 00:43:58,639
tug on his jacket in a very human way.

737
00:43:59,079 --> 00:44:01,039
Speaker 3: It sucks that it there's that level of.

738
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: Bananasness for him to really have empathy for the condition

739
00:44:05,679 --> 00:44:09,880
he has been gleefully bringing others into.

740
00:44:10,559 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 2: Right, And I did not believe him. I don't know

741
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,880
if I'm supposed to that he didn't know that that

742
00:44:17,079 --> 00:44:21,039
lab was down there and that the medical experiments and

743
00:44:21,079 --> 00:44:25,360
other horrible things that were happening were happening, or if

744
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,360
he was just straight up lying too, he was lying,

745
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:28,960
I thought so.

746
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was lying for sure.

747
00:44:31,519 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 1: Especially if he has a father in law that that's

748
00:44:34,639 --> 00:44:37,119
high up, Like I wouldn't be shocked if he'd never

749
00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:38,440
seen anything like that before.

750
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 3: Like if Vickers wasn't allowed to.

751
00:44:41,039 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 1: Enter those spaces, sure because he didn't have clearance, the

752
00:44:44,519 --> 00:44:47,559
clearance or the need to be there. Sure, but I'm

753
00:44:47,599 --> 00:44:51,519
sure everybody sort of knew where people are going, and

754
00:44:51,639 --> 00:44:54,599
people were getting like black bagged or whatever. Yeah, I

755
00:44:54,599 --> 00:44:56,639
feel like I might have been inferring. But when he's

756
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,559
leading Christopher through there, I felt so bad for Christopher.

757
00:44:59,599 --> 00:45:03,239
When they were in the lab and Christopher's like, what's happening?

758
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:04,840
What is his place? The way he was kind of

759
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,639
trying to like bullshit with him. Yeah, even though I

760
00:45:07,679 --> 00:45:10,320
know he'd been there before. That felt like to me,

761
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,599
him knowing him having known how bad this is, but

762
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,400
him acting like it's no different than experimenting I don't

763
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,320
know on rats, you know.

764
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,599
Speaker 2: Until it hit him, Like he had several moments of

765
00:45:24,639 --> 00:45:29,039
force perspective change throughout this film, like him pulling the

766
00:45:29,079 --> 00:45:30,360
trigger himself.

767
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 1: Yes, that is also a way that people will remove

768
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,519
themselves empathetically. Right, is I'm not the one doing it,

769
00:45:39,559 --> 00:45:42,079
that person's doing it. So that's a great point you're making,

770
00:45:42,119 --> 00:45:43,039
Ben correct.

771
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:48,199
Speaker 2: Even in executions in a firing squad, let's say there's

772
00:45:48,039 --> 00:45:52,000
just typically seven rifles, only four of them are loaded

773
00:45:52,599 --> 00:45:54,760
with real bullets. All of them have blanks. But it

774
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,320
creates some plausible deniability for the shooters that mine was

775
00:45:59,360 --> 00:45:59,719
the blank.

776
00:46:00,039 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 4: Yeah.

777
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,559
Speaker 3: They can all go home telling themselves they weren't the one.

778
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:04,039
Holy fuck, I didn't know that.

779
00:46:04,199 --> 00:46:05,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why they do it in front of a

780
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,679
squad of people, so that no one knows who's the

781
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:10,000
actual one that killed the person.

782
00:46:10,559 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 3: Wow.

783
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 1: So it's a psychological game that they play to live

784
00:46:15,519 --> 00:46:16,760
through it mentally.

785
00:46:17,079 --> 00:46:20,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're with electric chairs. There are other such

786
00:46:20,639 --> 00:46:23,639
things that are often three switches and only one was live.

787
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: It's such an interesting observation of human nature that we

788
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,280
know it's fucked. We always know it's fucked what we're doing,

789
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,920
that we have to create these like mental fails. Like

790
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:41,440
these mental fail saves loopholes so that we can live

791
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,760
with ourselves. It's that existential I don't know if that's

792
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,320
the right word for it, but well, maybe cognitive dissonance.

793
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 3: This is cognitive dissonance.

794
00:46:50,199 --> 00:46:54,639
Speaker 1: Liminal space mentally of like we almost as fucked, right,

795
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,639
but we're not gonna stop doing it. We're just gonna

796
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:02,079
play a little game on ourselves, yeah, so that we

797
00:47:02,119 --> 00:47:05,920
can tell ourselves a story. And like true empathy gets

798
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,039
in the way of all this stuff. I think one

799
00:47:08,039 --> 00:47:10,480
of the moments in the movie where you see him

800
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:15,119
gain awareness in real time is when they put the

801
00:47:15,199 --> 00:47:17,000
alien in front of him to shoot.

802
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 2: Yep, and they make him shoot. It's not they're literally

803
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,320
cattle prodding him, yeah, to make his muscles convulse because

804
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:29,559
he's refusing to engage, engage and pull the trigger and

805
00:47:29,599 --> 00:47:32,239
test these alien weapons. That since now he has alien

806
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,239
DNA and his arm is turned into an alien arm

807
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:40,480
that he can now operate because now he's valuable. Now

808
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,960
he can do that. So as he's going from like, oh,

809
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,360
look it's this this thing, Oh Thomas, Thomas, just put

810
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:52,760
your gun on him, they're definitely criminals. This jolly dissociation

811
00:47:52,840 --> 00:48:00,480
from it to you're killing a living thing right now, yeah,

812
00:48:00,679 --> 00:48:05,840
is a immediate shift where you can see him display

813
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,559
the concern for another life that has always been there.

814
00:48:09,599 --> 00:48:14,360
It's the most critical thing to understand about dissociation that

815
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:18,960
people don't. If you dissociate something, it doesn't go away.

816
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:24,760
It's not gone. It's just frozen in a pocket reality somewhere.

817
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,760
But the part of you that always knows the fucking

818
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,159
truth knows it's there and actively defends it. And that's

819
00:48:31,159 --> 00:48:33,280
why we have these mental gymnastics things that we do,

820
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:38,320
because we're actively walling off something painful, and sometimes to

821
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,679
survive you have to do painful things, or sometimes you're

822
00:48:40,679 --> 00:48:44,320
caught in a system where we're all doing bad things.

823
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,519
So it's okay, right, No, No, it's not okay.

824
00:48:47,119 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, Because when he was.

825
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,800
Speaker 1: All like, oh, I mean, don't put him in front

826
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,960
of me, when he was like protesting, and I was like,

827
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,239
what's different between this guy in front of you, this

828
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:01,519
alien guy in front of you, and the bajillion others

829
00:49:01,559 --> 00:49:04,960
that you just gleefully let get shot when you were

830
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,320
doing your evicting.

831
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 2: Right, what one point five million or something that they

832
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:14,119
made several points to a reference, it's over a million

833
00:49:15,199 --> 00:49:18,480
lives that he knows he's putting into a concentration camp

834
00:49:18,559 --> 00:49:21,719
because those are words, he says, Yeah, all of a

835
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,679
sudden he knows that truth, that barrier has been kicked

836
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:27,840
down by reality. They're like, guess what, bitch, you knew

837
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,119
what you were doing. And that's part of why this

838
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:38,800
forced perspective change and recognizing that we can always find empathy,

839
00:49:39,039 --> 00:49:42,840
sometimes we have to actively choose to It's always there.

840
00:49:43,159 --> 00:49:46,119
We always know that something else is alive, Like Brittany,

841
00:49:46,159 --> 00:49:50,400
you mentioned, like some universal existential truths, there is nothing

842
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,119
that is alive that wants to die that's going to

843
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,039
voluntarily do so outside of the feeling they have no

844
00:49:56,079 --> 00:49:58,159
other choice to get out of pain. But there is

845
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:02,360
nothing that is alive that isn't afraid of being not alive. Period.

846
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,800
There is no parent that doesn't want to be with

847
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,159
their child. It's just simple, like sure, it can get

848
00:50:10,199 --> 00:50:12,360
more complicated from there, but on some level it's there.

849
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,920
But understanding the importance of having empathy and connecting to

850
00:50:15,079 --> 00:50:18,000
other living creatures and understanding the ability to connect to

851
00:50:18,079 --> 00:50:21,920
their experience and understand that from their point of view,

852
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,599
how they understand the world is always going to be

853
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,199
valid for them, regardless of what you think about it

854
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,760
or how you're taught to think different it's always going

855
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,159
to be real for them, and their feelings and pain

856
00:50:35,199 --> 00:50:38,159
will always be real and we can never ever not

857
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:38,599
know that.

858
00:50:39,159 --> 00:50:41,679
Speaker 1: So I think for someone like Vickers, when you don't

859
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:47,159
have this extreme circumstance that causes this force perspective change, right,

860
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,840
that what you have to do instead more of like

861
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,440
the real war version of this is being willing to

862
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:57,960
sit in the discomfort of the truth, be willing to

863
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,840
sit in the discomfort of the decision you've made, how

864
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:06,920
you've prioritized the in group or yourself specifically, how you

865
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:12,159
have reaped the benefits of your privilege, even sitting in

866
00:51:12,159 --> 00:51:16,039
the discomfort of acknowledging you have privilege. Even if you're

867
00:51:16,079 --> 00:51:19,639
not a billionaire, you can still have privilege that has

868
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,320
helped you through your life. So for someone like Vickars

869
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,119
in real life, to gain that empathy, you have to

870
00:51:26,199 --> 00:51:29,320
sit in a lot of discomfort, which for some people

871
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,119
they would define as impossible. I don't think it's ever

872
00:51:32,159 --> 00:51:34,920
impossible to do that work. If you feel motivated to

873
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,800
do that work. It is really hard work. Especially when

874
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:43,599
you are used to being the privileged class, you don't

875
00:51:43,639 --> 00:51:46,400
experience a lot of discomfort. That is the part of

876
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:50,440
the privilege is you get to be pretty comfortable most

877
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:54,880
of the time, and so there can be less tolerance

878
00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:01,119
for hard truths, for uncomfortable situations, and so for someone

879
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:06,320
like Vicker's, there isn't always the motivation, yeah, to push

880
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:11,639
the discomfort to gain the empathy, unless something extreme happens,

881
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,000
like the situation where all of a sudden you're amongst

882
00:52:15,599 --> 00:52:18,639
the people. I think an interesting scene in the movie

883
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,159
that felt like very much real life.

884
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:22,280
Speaker 3: A lot of these things do.

885
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 1: But when he's standing in the line for food with

886
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,400
the other aliens and he doesn't quite know how to

887
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,960
ask for what he wants, He's like asking for freaking.

888
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:34,679
Speaker 3: Like what like a Hamburger Schwarmer.

889
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, like something that makes absolutely knows on whatsoever.

890
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,119
Speaker 3: It's like, you got a hot dog over here? Yeah,

891
00:52:40,159 --> 00:52:41,440
what the fuck do you think you are?

892
00:52:41,559 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 4: Bro?

893
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,119
Speaker 1: That's such an example of I was shitting on you

894
00:52:45,119 --> 00:52:49,039
guys and dehumanizing you, but now I want to just

895
00:52:49,199 --> 00:52:53,760
lean into your culture because I have to, but still

896
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,760
not quite demonstrating the empathy, because I will say with him,

897
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,039
I'm gonna sure what you guys think. He still is

898
00:52:59,079 --> 00:53:02,039
looking out for number one till the last ten minutes

899
00:53:02,079 --> 00:53:05,480
of the movie. So even though he's had this forced

900
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:09,559
perspective change, he's still pretty unempathetic.

901
00:53:10,599 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 3: For most of the movie. He's willing to sell out

902
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,000
the other aliens. He fucks up their whole shit.

903
00:53:17,159 --> 00:53:20,079
Speaker 1: He almost like fucks everything up for like Christopher and

904
00:53:20,119 --> 00:53:21,920
the ship and how he's like saving that fuel for

905
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,639
twenty years, all because he wants to be part of

906
00:53:24,639 --> 00:53:27,719
the privileged class again, and that feels so important that

907
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:32,280
that is continuously conflicting with his empathy during the movie.

908
00:53:32,559 --> 00:53:37,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, that last moment where he confronts Christopher right after

909
00:53:37,679 --> 00:53:40,119
they get out of the lab, where Christopher has realized

910
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:44,519
the depth of horrors well as the slum wasn't enough,

911
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,440
absolutely just shows. I mean, we see Christopher associated a lot.

912
00:53:48,519 --> 00:53:50,079
He has to leave his son behind in the ship

913
00:53:50,079 --> 00:53:52,400
and comply because he realizes he's gonna get shot right

914
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:56,199
now if he doesn't get into this atv right now.

915
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,639
The colonel will shoot you in the head now and

916
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:00,199
you have no chance of getting your son. So he

917
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,039
has to leave behind his lear worry about whether his

918
00:54:03,079 --> 00:54:07,360
son survived the crash caused by Vickers. Before all that,

919
00:54:07,519 --> 00:54:11,880
when Vickers finds out that Christopher's like, hey, I can't

920
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,880
fix you now. It's going to take three years to

921
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,079
fix you. I can't. I just can't. I can't fix

922
00:54:18,119 --> 00:54:20,119
you now. I have to save my people. I can't

923
00:54:20,159 --> 00:54:24,239
let my people be medical experiments as horrible things happen,

924
00:54:24,639 --> 00:54:27,239
which makes sense, and Vickers is like me, but me,

925
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,400
that breaks the deal we made. I got you into

926
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:30,719
the lab, I got you all this stuff you were

927
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:34,119
supposed to fix me definitely all about number one. And

928
00:54:34,119 --> 00:54:39,679
when that becomes untrue, what does he do? He attacks Christopher,

929
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:44,840
lies to his son. Christopher gets captured because of this,

930
00:54:46,599 --> 00:54:50,000
locked out of the ship, and then has to watch

931
00:54:50,079 --> 00:54:54,239
as the SAM site the surface to air missile blows

932
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:57,920
up the only known chance to get back on his

933
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:01,840
ship that he's been working for for twenty years, because

934
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,960
Vickers was butt hurt and couldn't accept reality. So yes,

935
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:10,199
I think understanding that that force perspective thing. Just because

936
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,480
it's happened doesn't mean it's been accepted.

937
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:16,280
Speaker 4: He really feels like a character somebody who would have

938
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:19,760
this experience if he wasn't turning literally into an alien.

939
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:22,960
Of course, I really don't feel like he'd be a

940
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:27,039
person who would stay in that empathetic space like I

941
00:55:27,079 --> 00:55:29,639
think he would very much just go right back to

942
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:30,320
being a.

943
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:31,760
Speaker 3: Part of the privileged class.

944
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 4: I'd be really surprised if, let's say, if they cut

945
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:36,599
his arm off and then he just didn't have an arm,

946
00:55:37,199 --> 00:55:38,199
but he was still a human.

947
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:44,159
Speaker 3: He really doesn't get it. That's what it kind of

948
00:55:44,159 --> 00:55:44,599
feels like.

949
00:55:44,679 --> 00:55:46,679
Speaker 4: I know that the point of the film is that

950
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,800
he then finally, at the last fucking second, he waited

951
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,079
until the last moment where he could show any empathy whatsoever,

952
00:55:54,599 --> 00:55:58,000
he finally does that. But I think in the real world,

953
00:55:58,039 --> 00:55:59,960
I think this guy goes back to being an assa

954
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:00,920
the next day.

955
00:56:01,039 --> 00:56:04,599
Speaker 1: Well, if there's one thing that the oppressive class loves

956
00:56:04,599 --> 00:56:09,800
to do, it's vacation, Yes, in the experience of the oppressed,

957
00:56:10,519 --> 00:56:13,519
and then make that their whole personality mm hmm for

958
00:56:13,559 --> 00:56:18,039
a hot minute, and not understanding that their ability to

959
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:21,679
vacation in it, to go in and out of that

960
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:26,000
experience is privilege. Yep, this is going to be such

961
00:56:26,039 --> 00:56:28,440
the silliest example, but it's the first one I thought of, which,

962
00:56:28,519 --> 00:56:31,679
so stupid Tyra Branks put on that fat suit for

963
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:33,360
the Tyra Branks so so you can see what it

964
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:35,079
was like to be a fat person. For a day

965
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,440
and cry about it, but then she can take that

966
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:41,920
suit off yep and be a supermodel.

967
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:46,199
Speaker 2: Right, how is that for you?

968
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:51,760
Speaker 1: Or like when Bruce Wayne goes into that developing country

969
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,960
prison and then once he's got all his lessons from

970
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,199
Batman begins, once he's learned everything he needs to learn,

971
00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:59,920
he calls his daddy Butler and he's like, hey, get

972
00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:01,599
the PJ and come pick me up.

973
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:03,039
Speaker 3: I'm done with slumming it.

974
00:57:03,519 --> 00:57:04,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep.

975
00:57:04,679 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 1: That's also another example of are you really having empathy

976
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:12,800
if you're not acknowledging the ease at which you can

977
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:16,519
go back and forth out of that experience in which

978
00:57:16,559 --> 00:57:19,039
the people that are actually in that experience they cannot

979
00:57:19,039 --> 00:57:19,320
do that.

980
00:57:19,639 --> 00:57:20,119
Speaker 3: Exactly.

981
00:57:20,239 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 1: I didn't see Bruce Wayne picking up any disenfranchised people

982
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:25,239
who are wrongly in prison and picking them on the

983
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:27,320
PJ with him, exactly, did we? No?

984
00:57:27,599 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 2: Nope, we see you know all of that, but understanding

985
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:36,760
like how powerful it is to have empathy versus vacation

986
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:39,880
in it and then not stay. I just would love

987
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:42,840
to see what the fallow up statistics of Undercover Boss are.

988
00:57:43,039 --> 00:57:46,400
How many of those people that have gone on that show?

989
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,599
Yeah right, actually like started giving a shit about their

990
00:57:50,639 --> 00:57:53,440
employees beyond like the five minutes where they vacationed in

991
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:54,159
their lives.

992
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:56,039
Speaker 3: Have you heard of poor people?

993
00:57:56,159 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 2: I just met some?

994
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's crazy.

995
00:58:00,599 --> 00:58:01,239
Speaker 2: You should get that.

996
00:58:01,159 --> 00:58:01,719
Speaker 3: Girl a raise.

997
00:58:02,039 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, but just her though not like everybody else. It's

998
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,199
like literally exactly the same as her. Just her, because

999
00:58:07,239 --> 00:58:09,880
now I feel bad for her and her situation.

1000
00:58:10,039 --> 00:58:13,679
Speaker 1: She has a life, she has internal world, she has

1001
00:58:14,519 --> 00:58:16,079
that she loves what she has.

1002
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:18,079
Speaker 3: She has to work another job because this one doesn't

1003
00:58:18,079 --> 00:58:20,000
pay her enough. Yeah, motherfucker.

1004
00:58:21,159 --> 00:58:24,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're exactly right, Hannah. And also to

1005
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:27,400
like jump off of that as well, I think that's

1006
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,519
also part of the mental gymnastics, where when he's in

1007
00:58:30,519 --> 00:58:33,360
that situation, why does he want to become a human again?

1008
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:37,079
Other than I'm sure that horrific pain he's in physically, is.

1009
00:58:37,599 --> 00:58:38,719
Speaker 3: That he knows it's bad.

1010
00:58:39,239 --> 00:58:43,119
Speaker 1: He knows being an alien in this world sucks ass

1011
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:45,480
that you get hurt and you get tortured, and you

1012
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:47,920
have to eat cat food and you're treated like shit.

1013
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:52,519
So he knows that it's not good to be one,

1014
00:58:52,639 --> 00:58:56,559
and yet he can't translate that all the way to

1015
00:58:56,639 --> 00:58:58,840
like we should stop doing this, to them. He just

1016
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:00,280
knows he doesn't want to be a part of that.

1017
00:59:00,639 --> 00:59:04,480
It's like, what is her name? That old white lady

1018
00:59:04,559 --> 00:59:07,960
who does the racism work, who's been on like Oprah Windfree,

1019
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:11,760
she's famous. She is white hair do, Yeah, sure hair do,

1020
00:59:12,079 --> 00:59:14,960
and she loves to turn a white person out with

1021
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,519
her like I guess what we call DEI ask things

1022
00:59:18,519 --> 00:59:20,440
that she's been doing. She's been doing since the eighties,

1023
00:59:20,519 --> 00:59:23,039
the way that she likes to fuck up a crowd

1024
00:59:23,039 --> 00:59:24,920
of white people. And I think she did this on

1025
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,199
the Oprah Winfrey Show in like nineteen ninety two. Is

1026
00:59:27,719 --> 00:59:30,400
raise your hand, white people if you would like to

1027
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:33,519
trade places with the black person today, And none of

1028
00:59:33,559 --> 00:59:35,480
them raise their hand, and she was like, yeah, because

1029
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:36,559
you know what it's actually like.

1030
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:38,519
Speaker 3: But at the same time, you're.

1031
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:41,559
Speaker 1: Gonna say it's not that bad, Well, then raise your

1032
00:59:41,559 --> 00:59:43,440
hand if it's not that bad, if it's no different.

1033
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,280
So yeah, I think that's also the part of the

1034
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:49,599
empathy discomfort shift that someone like Vickers would have to

1035
00:59:49,679 --> 00:59:53,480
acknowledge in those moments. Right is right now, I am

1036
00:59:53,599 --> 00:59:57,199
acknowledging that I don't want to be an alien.

1037
00:59:57,519 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 3: I don't want to be part of this class because

1038
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:00,360
it's bad.

1039
01:00:00,639 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, But at the same time I want to be

1040
01:00:02,039 --> 01:00:04,360
like it's not that bad, or like it doesn't matter.

1041
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:05,639
Speaker 3: Right, it's not that big of a deal.

1042
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 2: And if they told him, no, we can get this

1043
01:00:08,519 --> 01:00:11,119
arm off you. You can have your wife and your life back,

1044
01:00:11,679 --> 01:00:15,039
but you got to go back to your job. Which

1045
01:00:15,119 --> 01:00:17,280
Charlie problem do you think he picks?

1046
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:19,239
Speaker 3: Oh, he would.

1047
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:23,199
Speaker 1: Be doing such a level of dissociative ned Flanders esque

1048
01:00:24,119 --> 01:00:29,400
sweater vest wearing attitude having this. Yeah, he might adopt

1049
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:34,440
a dissociated personality. The part of him that experienced this

1050
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:36,159
will get locked in a box in the back of

1051
01:00:36,159 --> 01:00:39,360
his brain so that he could keep doing the work

1052
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:41,719
in front of him and act like it's fine. Like

1053
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,519
I could see him even going harder with the weird

1054
01:00:44,519 --> 01:00:48,320
persona he showed in the beginning of the movie. Oh yeah, absolutely,

1055
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,559
locally docally, nothing to see here, folks, yep.

1056
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:53,519
Speaker 2: Right, So I think we've covered all that pretty well.

1057
01:00:53,559 --> 01:00:56,440
Is there anything else? Anybody wants to say? No, No,

1058
01:00:56,679 --> 01:01:00,000
let's take another break here and we'll go into treatment.

1059
01:01:01,599 --> 01:01:02,519
Who wants to go first?

1060
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:05,239
Speaker 3: Well, which one of us is going to try treat Vickers?

1061
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:08,440
I mean, this is kind of a pickle, Right, who

1062
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:09,480
do we pick to treat?

1063
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, humanity, Vickers the alien making his little heart craft

1064
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:16,840
in the piles of garbage.

1065
01:01:17,119 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, leaving him at his wife's doorstep.

1066
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:23,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, to humanity, and you just can't help but feel

1067
01:01:23,199 --> 01:01:24,880
for him. They did it on purpose, They made you

1068
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:28,039
connect to his humanity, but not till halfway through the

1069
01:01:28,039 --> 01:01:31,280
film where they showed him starting to get sick and like,

1070
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:33,480
go to that party where you can connect to like, oh,

1071
01:01:33,639 --> 01:01:37,920
man on the cake.

1072
01:01:39,119 --> 01:01:42,239
Speaker 4: It's so interesting how fast that all of that happens

1073
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:45,320
in that scene. That scene is so wild. They're trying

1074
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:48,039
to do something. He comes in and they're like, let's

1075
01:01:48,079 --> 01:01:50,599
do the cake. It happens so fast, and I'm just like,

1076
01:01:50,639 --> 01:01:52,920
he is gonna I knew he was gonna vomit on something.

1077
01:01:53,519 --> 01:01:56,079
He looked like he was gonna shit his pants, Like, yeah,

1078
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:58,159
do you come with diarrhea coming into the house where

1079
01:01:58,199 --> 01:01:59,119
they're like, I can't die.

1080
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:01,199
Speaker 2: Don't look at me like.

1081
01:02:01,159 --> 01:02:03,880
Speaker 4: This, yes, please don't look at me.

1082
01:02:04,679 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 2: Coming out like hot lover. Yeah, like shitting in a

1083
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:12,119
garbage can in front of everybody who's having a surprise

1084
01:02:12,199 --> 01:02:13,960
party for you kind of energy. Yeah, but it's horrible.

1085
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 4: Thank God, but it also was like a party to

1086
01:02:17,599 --> 01:02:21,159
celebrate them starting getting to get rid of the aliens

1087
01:02:21,199 --> 01:02:22,960
into the other spot, right, isn't what the.

1088
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 3: Party of promotion is? Promotion promotion, promotion party.

1089
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:27,239
Speaker 2: Okay, you know they're all company.

1090
01:02:27,599 --> 01:02:27,719
Speaker 1: Ye.

1091
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:30,239
Speaker 2: The father in law is the you know, big dig

1092
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:30,840
daddy here.

1093
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know.

1094
01:02:32,119 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 1: Is there an individual in this movie to treat Christopher?

1095
01:02:37,039 --> 01:02:39,039
Speaker 3: I mean I don't feel it. Does he need it

1096
01:02:39,079 --> 01:02:40,360
because he got the hell out of there?

1097
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:41,639
Speaker 2: Oh, he's going to need it.

1098
01:02:41,679 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 3: I mean he's definitely gonna need it.

1099
01:02:43,159 --> 01:02:46,800
Speaker 4: He's going to need it, and who knows what version

1100
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,239
of what he would need because who knows what it's

1101
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:50,400
like on his home planet.

1102
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:52,679
Speaker 1: We did talk about how they have like medical machines.

1103
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:55,079
What if they have one for your brain and like

1104
01:02:55,119 --> 01:02:59,199
whatever brain damage happens from trauma it can help with.

1105
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:01,639
Speaker 3: That'd be dope, that'd be pretty cool.

1106
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:03,239
Speaker 2: I mean that'd be great.

1107
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 3: Well.

1108
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 1: I think the first step to treating someone like Christopher

1109
01:03:07,639 --> 01:03:09,719
is they have to be in a safe place.

1110
01:03:10,159 --> 01:03:16,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, correct, And then shame must be addressed because there's

1111
01:03:16,079 --> 01:03:18,599
going to be several things going on for him when

1112
01:03:18,639 --> 01:03:23,519
he's returned to safety. He had to do everything that

1113
01:03:23,559 --> 01:03:26,079
he did the exact way he did it, or he

1114
01:03:26,119 --> 01:03:30,639
died yep, and everything stayed the same. He failed his people,

1115
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:33,920
and his son died, and he had to do all

1116
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:36,599
that he had to do while accepting my son may

1117
01:03:36,599 --> 01:03:40,760
already be dead, which, as we've covered before, no parent

1118
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:44,159
wants that, of course, but at some point you're still alive.

1119
01:03:44,199 --> 01:03:46,519
And prime directive one like.

1120
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 3: Where's Christopher's mama, Christopher Junior?

1121
01:03:49,079 --> 01:03:52,239
Speaker 1: I mean so like also the grief of if they

1122
01:03:52,559 --> 01:03:53,920
have partners.

1123
01:03:53,679 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and create children right the way that we do.

1124
01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:59,239
Speaker 2: Right, where is it? How is it? There's so much

1125
01:03:59,239 --> 01:04:01,119
he would need to work through and it would take

1126
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:04,320
a long time. Were he human, of course, because presuming

1127
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:06,000
we understand their DNA, it would be a.

1128
01:04:06,119 --> 01:04:07,559
Speaker 4: I know, I feel like I keep trying to come

1129
01:04:07,599 --> 01:04:09,320
at this from like we could do this, or we

1130
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:09,800
could do that.

1131
01:04:10,159 --> 01:04:11,559
Speaker 3: And a really big part of this is.

1132
01:04:11,559 --> 01:04:15,639
Speaker 4: He should be seeing an alien for therapy, do you

1133
01:04:15,639 --> 01:04:17,920
know what I mean? Like he shouldn't be seeing a

1134
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:20,559
human for therapy, he should be seeing an alien.

1135
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:24,679
Speaker 3: Facts Yeah, so like so I don't know were.

1136
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:27,559
Speaker 2: He human and were his brain to function as humans do,

1137
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:30,679
at least the way those of us sitting here with

1138
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:34,320
degrees discussing this like we know anything about aliens, would

1139
01:04:34,679 --> 01:04:35,920
conceptualize it, right.

1140
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 1: Well, we know something about refugees, Yeah, of course. And yeah,

1141
01:04:40,519 --> 01:04:42,400
I think there's survivor's guilt, I think is what you're

1142
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:45,360
talking about to a certain extent, the shame of being

1143
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:47,320
one of the ones that made it out of a

1144
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:48,239
horrible situation.

1145
01:04:48,639 --> 01:04:52,159
Speaker 2: That too, I hadn't even thought of that angle, But yes,

1146
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:55,480
no disagreement there. His case would be extraordinarily complex. This

1147
01:04:55,519 --> 01:04:59,519
would be ACPTSD case. He had twenty years of terror,

1148
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:05,559
oppression that was ever present, and all the cascading stacking

1149
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:10,599
effects of that would be extremely difficult to work through.

1150
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:14,320
The shame of having to lower himself to the levels

1151
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:17,480
he did when he's clearly so capable of so many things,

1152
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:20,800
and being powerless against the situation, unable to help in

1153
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:22,519
the way he wanted to, would be a lot. But

1154
01:05:22,679 --> 01:05:25,719
also working through the attachment he would have formed to

1155
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:29,599
Vickers because Vickers saved his life in the end, but

1156
01:05:29,719 --> 01:05:31,880
also Vickers is part of the whole reason why your

1157
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:34,519
life needed saving, and it's really fucked. Yeah, there's going

1158
01:05:34,599 --> 01:05:35,960
to be some part of him that wants to go

1159
01:05:36,079 --> 01:05:38,840
back and hold to his promise and be better than

1160
01:05:39,039 --> 01:05:41,400
what happened to him. In another part that's going to

1161
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:45,920
be like what nonsense are you even saying right now?

1162
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:49,719
Why would you ever go back there? And yet another

1163
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:53,400
part that's going to be like, exterminate the planet of

1164
01:05:53,559 --> 01:05:58,119
humans and take their fucking resources because they're goddamn monsters. Yep,

1165
01:05:58,719 --> 01:06:00,519
And that will be a war in side of his

1166
01:06:00,679 --> 01:06:05,400
head if he's, you know, remotely right, got similar biology

1167
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:09,039
does the layers and layers of complication that come with

1168
01:06:09,159 --> 01:06:13,000
CPTSD would make him an interesting case. And I don't

1169
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:17,559
think anybody else remotely would interest me to treat figures.

1170
01:06:17,599 --> 01:06:21,000
His wife is going through her own batch of dissociation

1171
01:06:21,159 --> 01:06:21,760
right now.

1172
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:27,679
Speaker 3: Well, and she's being her dad. Is that fucking monster? Yeah?

1173
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:31,639
Speaker 1: Who was willing to treat her husband, who he knows

1174
01:06:32,239 --> 01:06:35,199
like cattle. We see the dehumanization process that he does

1175
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:38,239
very quickly. Well, you know, he was always an idiot,

1176
01:06:38,599 --> 01:06:42,760
yeah so, and he was wesh so babe. He literally

1177
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:44,599
tells his wife, you're gonna have to let him go,

1178
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:47,000
like that's crazy, Like it's a dog they had to

1179
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:47,440
put down.

1180
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:52,239
Speaker 2: He had no hesitation that they were going to vivisect him.

1181
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:55,320
Cut his heart out of his chest and maybe gass

1182
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:57,440
him so he doesn't feel pain, but the objective is

1183
01:06:57,440 --> 01:06:59,440
to get the heart. Yeah, he gonna die either way,

1184
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:02,599
it doesn't matter, is fine. Dead men tell no tales, right, Yeah?

1185
01:07:02,679 --> 01:07:06,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think, yeah, Christopher and his son is

1186
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:08,119
the only people that I really gave a shit about

1187
01:07:08,159 --> 01:07:09,880
by the end, and I.

1188
01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:10,400
Speaker 3: Think you're right.

1189
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:13,920
Speaker 1: I think a real world version of him would be

1190
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:17,679
someone who has fleed somewhere horrible where a lot of

1191
01:07:17,719 --> 01:07:23,480
their family and cultural group are still exists, having to

1192
01:07:23,559 --> 01:07:25,440
make sure that they're safe before they can even do

1193
01:07:25,519 --> 01:07:27,559
that work. Right, You can't really do that work while

1194
01:07:27,559 --> 01:07:29,960
you're in the midst of it exactly, kind of going

1195
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:32,039
back to the hierarchy and needs idea, like, until you

1196
01:07:32,039 --> 01:07:35,320
have your basic needs met and safety, you can't really

1197
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:38,000
do higher work because your branch is trying to survive.

1198
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:41,719
I think with him in a therapy way as well,

1199
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:46,440
especially because he's so smart and so capable, I think

1200
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:50,840
there would also be the debate internally that you would

1201
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,000
have to maybe help him through with therapy from a

1202
01:07:53,039 --> 01:07:55,440
place of meaning and purpose. Do I have to go

1203
01:07:55,519 --> 01:07:57,559
back and say the people that I can am I

1204
01:07:57,639 --> 01:07:59,239
too scared to go back, and I just want to

1205
01:07:59,239 --> 01:08:02,320
stay here and try to make a life home with

1206
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:02,880
my child.

1207
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:04,679
Speaker 3: Do I leave my child and go back. Our job

1208
01:08:04,719 --> 01:08:06,679
would probably be just to try to talk through with.

1209
01:08:06,719 --> 01:08:09,719
Speaker 1: Him what he feels like he needs to do, yeah,

1210
01:08:09,719 --> 01:08:14,039
and what's possible and why, and help create meaning and

1211
01:08:14,079 --> 01:08:16,600
make sure that's coming from a place of like you

1212
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:18,079
were talking about, and like not just shame.

1213
01:08:18,239 --> 01:08:21,159
Speaker 3: I have to go back there from in more like emotional.

1214
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:24,920
Speaker 1: Place, yeah, versus I have the means and the ability

1215
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:26,800
to go back there, and it fits my values to

1216
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:31,119
go back there. And when I am sound enough physically, mentally, whatever,

1217
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:33,479
I will go back there and I will help them.

1218
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:36,359
Speaker 2: And if that's what he chooses to do, that's from

1219
01:08:36,359 --> 01:08:40,359
an empowered state, which that's fine, that's free will. Even

1220
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:42,439
if you may sit and look at it you want

1221
01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:46,680
to go save the dude who threatened to just take

1222
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:47,359
your child.

1223
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:48,800
Speaker 3: Viguers will probably.

1224
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:52,479
Speaker 1: Just be swept up in the masses of aliens if

1225
01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:53,239
they got rescued.

1226
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:56,640
Speaker 2: I mean, it was just like but specifically you know

1227
01:08:56,680 --> 01:08:58,720
that there would likely have been a trauma bond that

1228
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:01,119
would make him feel response to do so because he

1229
01:09:01,159 --> 01:09:04,199
said he would, and people get those kinds of things

1230
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:07,399
stuck all the time in their heads, even if it's

1231
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:09,359
a ridiculous notion for them to do.

1232
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:12,960
Speaker 1: So I think for treatment, I'm going to go a

1233
01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:17,119
different route because, as we said, there's not really anyone

1234
01:09:17,119 --> 01:09:19,279
to treat this movie besides Christopher. Because this is a

1235
01:09:19,359 --> 01:09:23,600
lot of this is a social issue, it is a

1236
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:28,840
systemic issue. So I recently set up a training for

1237
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:31,880
the practice I work out about decolonizing mental health. And

1238
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:35,239
actually the person that we had trained us is named

1239
01:09:35,239 --> 01:09:36,640
Aaron Matthews, and her.

1240
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:38,520
Speaker 3: Practice is called living in Empathy.

1241
01:09:39,039 --> 01:09:42,039
Speaker 1: Oddly for just coincidentally from what we've been talking about,

1242
01:09:42,119 --> 01:09:44,439
she had us do a cultural genograham And I think

1243
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:47,479
that was very interesting for me as a white therapist

1244
01:09:48,239 --> 01:09:54,680
to be mindful of the cultural biases, that cultural identities

1245
01:09:55,039 --> 01:09:57,840
that impacts me and the thoughts that I have and

1246
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:01,119
what I bring to the work I do as a

1247
01:10:01,159 --> 01:10:05,720
therapist who works with all different kinds of people. So

1248
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:09,760
I would say from a treatment perspective, as a working therapist,

1249
01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:12,159
I think it's always very good, especially if you are

1250
01:10:12,199 --> 01:10:16,000
a part of a historically oppressive class like I'm a

1251
01:10:16,039 --> 01:10:20,119
white Christian technically not practicing, but you know, yeah, I

1252
01:10:20,159 --> 01:10:23,319
got you, and I'm like straight, and you know cisgendered

1253
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:27,319
that you have to be aware of your own biases,

1254
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,079
and like, like I was saying earlier, you have to

1255
01:10:30,239 --> 01:10:33,279
work on being uncomfortable and work on recognizing what you

1256
01:10:33,359 --> 01:10:36,640
don't know and reading shit that you would normally read.

1257
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:39,000
I wasn't no offense to my family, I guess, but

1258
01:10:39,039 --> 01:10:42,239
maybe a fense. I wasn't really exposed to any sort

1259
01:10:42,239 --> 01:10:48,520
of DEI thoughtful. I was raised in like white as White, Ohio.

1260
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:51,439
So like, I just recently read Between the World and

1261
01:10:51,479 --> 01:10:53,920
Me by Tanahasecoast, which I know everybody talks about, but

1262
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:55,640
I think that's a great book to read as a

1263
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:59,439
clinician in terms of really getting into the mindset of

1264
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:04,600
being part of the oppressed class of people and how

1265
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:07,039
that trickles down into what we've been talking about, the

1266
01:11:07,079 --> 01:11:11,399
culture and violence, and how people who are used to

1267
01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:15,399
being oppressed will integrate violence into the way they parent

1268
01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:18,600
their children, to the way that they police their own

1269
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:21,199
community to a certain extent as a way to survive

1270
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:24,920
the oppressive class. Don't walk out there with that attitude

1271
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:26,760
because you'll get hurt. So I'm gonna whoop you so

1272
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:29,560
that you can stay in line and how we will

1273
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:33,960
use violence to contain mm hmm, even within our own

1274
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:36,159
groups from the bigger right that we're more scared of.

1275
01:11:36,319 --> 01:11:39,039
And so, yeah, I think if you're a therapist and

1276
01:11:39,119 --> 01:11:42,159
you we all have our own echo chamber, that it's

1277
01:11:42,439 --> 01:11:44,760
part of I think being a good ethical therapist is

1278
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:46,680
you have to read things and expose yourself and make

1279
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:49,600
yourself uncomfortable and ask yourself questions about like why do

1280
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:51,760
I think that's true? Why do I think that way

1281
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:57,399
of being is messy or classless or off putting? Is

1282
01:11:57,439 --> 01:11:58,920
that because I've been made to believe that was that

1283
01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:02,479
part of a do humanization from my grandparents' generation that's

1284
01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:05,239
still trickle down to me that I'm holding on to

1285
01:12:05,399 --> 01:12:07,840
not even being aware of. And then don't get caught

1286
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:10,880
up in your white tears by being like, oh I'm

1287
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:15,279
sad and I feel bad that I have those internal thoughts.

1288
01:12:15,359 --> 01:12:18,640
Get over it, just recognize it, commit to doing it

1289
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:21,800
differently than your four fathers, and move through it. So

1290
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:24,680
that's kind of where I would say to take this

1291
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:27,439
stuff we've talked about and put it into treatment as

1292
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:30,600
your continue education as a therapist.

1293
01:12:31,039 --> 01:12:33,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I don't know

1294
01:12:33,199 --> 01:12:35,800
that I have anything else to say about treatment. I

1295
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:38,159
don't really know that there's Like we said, there isn't

1296
01:12:38,199 --> 01:12:42,640
anything that I see here that particularly is connected to

1297
01:12:43,079 --> 01:12:47,279
families and couples, just like in terms of the only

1298
01:12:47,399 --> 01:12:50,560
family that we see is these two characters that we

1299
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:52,920
don't really know that much more about besides that they're

1300
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:56,279
father and son, and also their relationship looks very loving

1301
01:12:56,319 --> 01:12:58,560
and as loving as it can be in a war

1302
01:12:58,640 --> 01:12:59,680
torn life.

1303
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:01,399
Speaker 1: That you're Yeah, I think the only thing that would

1304
01:13:01,399 --> 01:13:04,000
be interesting maybe from like a family therapy perspective, but

1305
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:05,439
I don't think you have to go into this go

1306
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:11,119
into this is Christopher Junior. I'm calling him having to

1307
01:13:11,359 --> 01:13:13,399
go back to a culture that he was never raised in.

1308
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:17,920
I wonder how much that would mirror the immigrant experience.

1309
01:13:18,319 --> 01:13:20,680
I feel like the first gen experience that kind of thing,

1310
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:25,119
and how he's so eager to go home because his

1311
01:13:25,199 --> 01:13:27,199
dad's been telling him what home's like. But I wonder

1312
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:29,600
what that'll be like for him to actually be there.

1313
01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:30,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good point.

1314
01:13:31,039 --> 01:13:33,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that would be powerful. I think I would also

1315
01:13:34,119 --> 01:13:38,000
want to know how they work through coming back together

1316
01:13:38,119 --> 01:13:42,359
from this experience, they probably would need to be debriefed

1317
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:46,159
and have sessions together about now they're a unit outside

1318
01:13:46,199 --> 01:13:48,680
of their own culture, like those two because of what

1319
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:50,920
they went through, they'll be the only ones, yeah, return

1320
01:13:51,720 --> 01:13:54,640
that survived. Yeah, because it's just them and that chip's

1321
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:58,079
not like they tractor beamed everybody. Just those two and

1322
01:13:58,119 --> 01:14:03,000
there's still two million left beat behind. That'd be a lot. Yeah,

1323
01:14:03,039 --> 01:14:06,000
And we don't know how old. Is this a grogu

1324
01:14:06,119 --> 01:14:08,600
situation where he's right right, he.

1325
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:12,479
Speaker 1: Looks like like he's eight. Yeah, that's what my brain thinks.

1326
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:14,680
Speaker 2: But I know what you mean, ben, Right, We don't

1327
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:18,319
know how what their you know, life cycle is their biology, right,

1328
01:14:18,319 --> 01:14:22,000
we'll covered that. But the when people go through and

1329
01:14:22,119 --> 01:14:24,760
experience together as a father and son and then they're

1330
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:26,840
going to have to kind of change their relationship to

1331
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:30,840
whatever is expected of them within the culture they're returning to,

1332
01:14:31,039 --> 01:14:33,359
and how that's going to be so much different. That's

1333
01:14:33,359 --> 01:14:36,000
going to be a lot of opportunity for family therapy there,

1334
01:14:36,039 --> 01:14:36,680
I think.

1335
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:38,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I definitely could see that.

1336
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:40,399
Speaker 4: I mean that definitely would be something if you have

1337
01:14:40,560 --> 01:14:44,199
two survivors of something and that they survived it together

1338
01:14:44,239 --> 01:14:47,680
and having them together and being able to talk about

1339
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:49,680
their different experiences.

1340
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:52,840
Speaker 3: In session together would be really important.

1341
01:14:52,479 --> 01:14:55,199
Speaker 4: For them to have empathy for each other, but also

1342
01:14:55,920 --> 01:14:58,680
just to get a better sense of what actually happened

1343
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:01,680
out there in different ways. So yeah, well, even though

1344
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:04,439
it's like even like a processing benefit to it, right, Yeah, exactly,

1345
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:08,800
like almost like doing your individual trauma processing in front

1346
01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:12,800
of someone else, Yes, so that you well, so it's

1347
01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:16,159
being witnessed, yeah, which is also really important when we

1348
01:15:16,159 --> 01:15:19,479
talk about trauma survivors in general. Be really important to

1349
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:23,279
have some witnessing happen to what to what you went

1350
01:15:23,319 --> 01:15:25,279
through as validation.

1351
01:15:26,079 --> 01:15:28,319
Speaker 1: I would also imagine too, with the two of them,

1352
01:15:28,840 --> 01:15:32,640
that Christopher's story of the trauma is going to be

1353
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:38,000
very different than his son's, Yeah, because the different generation

1354
01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:42,479
Christopher Junior was born in this situation, just how cognizant

1355
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:44,600
they are of it. And so I think maybe family

1356
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:46,720
Therapy EVE would be helpful if I was thinking of this,

1357
01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:50,600
like regular regular humans, to make sure that Christopher isn't

1358
01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:55,720
projecting his trauma experience onto Christopher Junior, Yeah, especially since

1359
01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:58,199
he's so young. Yeah, adults, we do that all the time,

1360
01:15:59,319 --> 01:16:01,560
and so make sure I'd be like, well, Christopher. We

1361
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:04,199
have to make sure that you're letting Christopher Junior's experience

1362
01:16:04,279 --> 01:16:07,880
be his m and that you're not making assumptions in

1363
01:16:07,920 --> 01:16:09,880
any direction onto him.

1364
01:16:10,119 --> 01:16:12,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not for him.

1365
01:16:12,199 --> 01:16:14,279
Speaker 1: It's not gonna help him feel better if you're barfing

1366
01:16:14,319 --> 01:16:17,239
your trauma experience onto him or to reverse which is

1367
01:16:17,239 --> 01:16:17,840
it's not that bad.

1368
01:16:18,039 --> 01:16:18,479
Speaker 3: Shut up.

1369
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:20,840
Speaker 1: Like sometimes that witnessing is helpful so that everyone can

1370
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:24,000
tolerate everyone else's experience of the trauma. Yeah, I mean

1371
01:16:24,039 --> 01:16:26,479
of like we can talk about it and it does

1372
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:27,359
not have to be a secret.

1373
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:30,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is important. It's so important, all right, So

1374
01:16:30,359 --> 01:16:34,039
I think that covers treatment pretty well recognize the opportunities

1375
01:16:34,039 --> 01:16:37,359
for CPTSD and a great number of folks, even if

1376
01:16:37,399 --> 01:16:40,359
based on our feelings from the movie, we would not

1377
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:43,640
necessarily see Vicker's family as Oh, these people would be

1378
01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:45,800
the ideal person That stands out to me is treatment.

1379
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:47,720
Please know. What doesn't mean we don't think they need

1380
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:52,239
and deserve treatment, just recognizing who would be the most

1381
01:16:52,239 --> 01:16:55,399
interesting case to us individually. Is the thought experiment here? Yes,

1382
01:16:55,439 --> 01:16:56,880
So the next section we're going to move into here

1383
01:16:56,960 --> 01:16:59,319
is final Thoughts. Let's take our last break here before.

1384
01:16:59,119 --> 01:17:01,359
Speaker 3: Final thought, so I'd go first.

1385
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:04,079
Speaker 1: I saw this movie when it first came out because

1386
01:17:04,159 --> 01:17:07,439
it was such a hot movie. Everybody was talking about it,

1387
01:17:07,479 --> 01:17:10,039
and you know, one thing about me is something's trending,

1388
01:17:10,600 --> 01:17:13,000
I want to get my eyeballs on it. So I

1389
01:17:13,039 --> 01:17:15,640
saw when it first came out. I really really liked it.

1390
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:17,119
It was one of those movies that as soon as

1391
01:17:17,159 --> 01:17:18,640
I saw it, I was like, I can't wait to

1392
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:21,399
watch that again, and then I think I forgot.

1393
01:17:21,159 --> 01:17:25,359
Speaker 3: About it for fifteen years. I enjoyed watching it again.

1394
01:17:25,960 --> 01:17:29,079
Speaker 1: It was interesting how much this movie made me feel

1395
01:17:29,159 --> 01:17:34,479
sick now versus when I was younger and more sheltered,

1396
01:17:34,680 --> 01:17:38,880
And I think I had more empathetic separation when I

1397
01:17:38,880 --> 01:17:41,479
watched it when I was younger, and now watching it

1398
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:44,439
after being a therapist for twelve years and trying to

1399
01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:46,680
be a better white person and all this stuff and

1400
01:17:46,720 --> 01:17:49,199
having all the current stuff that goes on in the

1401
01:17:49,239 --> 01:17:51,520
world and being more exposed to that, it made me

1402
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:54,079
feel nauseous at parts of this movie heartbreaking. So I

1403
01:17:54,119 --> 01:17:56,920
don't know if I'll ever revisit it because it's not

1404
01:17:57,279 --> 01:18:00,520
a fun watch, but it's a very good movie. I

1405
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:03,199
think it makes its points very well. It's hard hitting

1406
01:18:03,199 --> 01:18:04,479
in the way that it should be a hard hitting

1407
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:07,079
because the disgusting stuff we've seen this movie is all

1408
01:18:07,119 --> 01:18:10,239
stuff that happens in real life to real people. So yeah,

1409
01:18:10,319 --> 01:18:12,800
I think it's an important movie. I'm glad it exists.

1410
01:18:12,840 --> 01:18:14,680
I'm glad it was made. I don't know if I'll

1411
01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:17,279
ever revisit it unless I'm maybe showing it to someone

1412
01:18:17,279 --> 01:18:19,800
who's ever seen it. But I like talking about it

1413
01:18:19,840 --> 01:18:20,479
today for sure.

1414
01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:21,199
Speaker 3: So I like this.

1415
01:18:21,239 --> 01:18:23,840
Speaker 4: Movie, but it's not fun to watch. I've never heard

1416
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:27,560
of this movie. I had no idea what it was. Really,

1417
01:18:28,279 --> 01:18:30,359
not even a clue even heard of it. Never even

1418
01:18:30,399 --> 01:18:33,640
heard of it. Oh no, fall asleep in the middle

1419
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:40,239
of it. So this is what I'm gonna say. I

1420
01:18:40,279 --> 01:18:42,159
will watch it again because I think I need to.

1421
01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:46,399
And that's about it. I don't really have any other

1422
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:48,840
final thoughts today. It's a good movie. I think it

1423
01:18:48,880 --> 01:18:51,680
has good information in it, blah blah blah. But I

1424
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:54,720
don't know. I just didn't feel that connected to it.

1425
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:57,119
I don't really know why. It's just kind of weird

1426
01:18:57,680 --> 01:18:58,520
for me a lot.

1427
01:18:59,359 --> 01:19:02,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. So yeah, so it was, so I'll definitely watch

1428
01:19:02,720 --> 01:19:05,199
it again. And it was fun to talk about.

1429
01:19:05,560 --> 01:19:08,800
Speaker 2: So this movie is definitely one I haven't know that

1430
01:19:08,840 --> 01:19:12,039
I've watched it. I own it, so you know, I

1431
01:19:12,119 --> 01:19:14,640
must have watched it before when it came out, But

1432
01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:19,560
I think watching it now was a drastically different experience

1433
01:19:19,640 --> 01:19:21,960
than watching it when it first came out. I would

1434
01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:23,880
have been in grad school at the time when I

1435
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:25,760
watched it, and I know I went with my mom

1436
01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:28,159
to see it. Probably saw it because Peter Jackson produced it,

1437
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:30,920
and it was trending and it was you know that

1438
01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:34,439
the viral marketing campaign for this was tremendously successful.

1439
01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:35,920
Speaker 3: Mm hmm, I remember that too.

1440
01:19:36,199 --> 01:19:38,680
Speaker 2: It was great. The found footage thing was just so big.

1441
01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:40,560
At this point in time too, they're really trying to

1442
01:19:40,600 --> 01:19:44,680
push that this movie is really powerful. It really is

1443
01:19:44,840 --> 01:19:48,199
hard hitting, and it shows truths of the world and

1444
01:19:48,279 --> 01:19:51,880
the rawness of the combat, the quick cuts, the way

1445
01:19:52,279 --> 01:19:56,920
the violence is gratuitous and realistic is important, and the

1446
01:19:57,039 --> 01:20:00,600
callousness as we discussed about the dehumanization and of how

1447
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:03,520
you take out prawn and replace it with any other

1448
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:07,680
slur about any other people that's ever been used throughout history,

1449
01:20:07,760 --> 01:20:09,279
and it becomes really clear what the point of this

1450
01:20:09,319 --> 01:20:13,520
film is. There are very, very few things separating any

1451
01:20:13,560 --> 01:20:17,159
of us from being marginalized into Yes, some people have

1452
01:20:17,520 --> 01:20:19,479
more privilege and armor that it makes it less likely,

1453
01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:22,560
but that could happen to anybody and happens throughout history,

1454
01:20:22,600 --> 01:20:25,279
and it's really important to watch for the signs of

1455
01:20:25,279 --> 01:20:27,720
it and be aware when it's happening or if you're participating,

1456
01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:30,640
and to not because it's dangerous. It's dangerous in a

1457
01:20:30,640 --> 01:20:33,000
way that sweeps like in City is Virus. It's a

1458
01:20:33,119 --> 01:20:35,319
really strong blight on humanity, and I think this movie

1459
01:20:35,359 --> 01:20:38,319
did such a beautiful job of highlighting the evils of

1460
01:20:38,319 --> 01:20:39,800
it and how fucked up it is that we only

1461
01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:42,159
see it when it's happening to us. Film is important.

1462
01:20:42,199 --> 01:20:43,920
I think it's really good, but it is a rough

1463
01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:46,079
watch and I probably won't just pop it in my

1464
01:20:46,399 --> 01:20:47,039
player and.

1465
01:20:47,239 --> 01:20:49,920
Speaker 1: Like a cozy Sunday be like I'm gonna watch District

1466
01:20:49,960 --> 01:20:51,960
nine right and get some hot chocolate going.

1467
01:20:52,479 --> 01:20:56,359
Speaker 2: No, but I'm glad it exists for when it needs

1468
01:20:56,359 --> 01:20:58,560
to be part of the conversation because it's very powerful

1469
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:01,159
film and it really did stand out at its time

1470
01:21:01,239 --> 01:21:02,079
and it still does well.

1471
01:21:02,079 --> 01:21:04,399
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. As always, you can find us

1472
01:21:04,439 --> 01:21:08,560
on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok at popcorn Psychology. You can

1473
01:21:08,560 --> 01:21:11,920
also find us on threads at popcorn Psychology. If you

1474
01:21:11,960 --> 01:21:13,560
would like to email us, you can email us at

1475
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:16,720
Popwornpsychology at gmail dot com. If you like to support

1476
01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:19,399
us monetarily, we always appreciate that. As we are a

1477
01:21:19,439 --> 01:21:23,319
DIY podcast, you can become a Patreon patron. If you

1478
01:21:23,520 --> 01:21:26,000
are a ten dollars or more patron, you get free

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01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:29,039
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1480
01:21:29,079 --> 01:21:31,199
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1481
01:21:31,239 --> 01:21:33,039
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01:21:33,039 --> 01:21:36,720
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1483
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:39,880
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1484
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:41,760
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1485
01:21:41,800 --> 01:21:43,760
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1486
01:21:43,760 --> 01:21:46,600
Speaker 3: Read your reviews. So stay safe out there, everybody,