1 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Great Detectives of Old Time Radio from Boise, Idaho. 2 00:00:34,759 --> 00:00:38,240 This is your host, Adam Graham. In a moment, we're 3 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,359 going to bring you this week's episode of The Big Story. 4 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,640 But first I want to encourage you. If you're enjoying 5 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:50,039 the podcast, please follow us using your favorite podcast software. 6 00:00:50,399 --> 00:00:52,079 And I also want to encourage you to check out 7 00:00:52,079 --> 00:00:55,200 our other podcasts. And today I'm highlighting the amazing world 8 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,960 of radio at Amazing dot Great Detectives dot net, where 9 00:01:00,159 --> 00:01:03,920 we are currently featuring our Colombo Killers, an old time 10 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,480 radio series where every week we're bringing you an old 11 00:01:07,519 --> 00:01:11,959 time radio episode featuring an actor who played the killer 12 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:16,239 on Colombo. Check that out wherever you get your podcast from. 13 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,120 But now, from April to fourth, nineteen fifty one, here 14 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:28,120 is poker game ends in death, The Big Story. 15 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:33,239 Speaker 2: Come on, come on, get the letout. 16 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 3: Did you see him? 17 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 2: Did you see Doug the way he was lying there? 18 00:01:40,599 --> 00:01:41,680 How did you like that guy? 19 00:01:41,799 --> 00:01:42,239 Speaker 3: The dealer? 20 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,599 Speaker 4: He thought he was gonna take it a big butt anyway, 21 00:01:47,599 --> 00:01:50,280 he says another guy, I got a pair, one more 22 00:01:50,319 --> 00:01:52,799 to go with it, get three of a kid and 23 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:53,519 then boom? 24 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 2: Why did Doug have to get it quite done? 25 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,079 Speaker 4: All right, all right, quit the cry and says Doug's dead. 26 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,480 So what guy with three of them? The guy is 27 00:02:00,519 --> 00:02:00,959 dead too. 28 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 3: How do you like that? 29 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 2: I caught my jacket and a nail. I paid seventy 30 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,840 five dollars for that jacket. Why does. 31 00:02:19,199 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 5: Chicago, Illinois? From the front pages of the Chicago Sun 32 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,080 Times comes the story of a poker game that ended 33 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:35,919 in depth Chicago, Illinois. The story is that actually happened, 34 00:02:36,599 --> 00:02:38,960 William Doherty's story as he lived it. 35 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 3: Your first name is Bill, last name Doherty. One of 36 00:02:55,159 --> 00:02:59,800 the proudest names in Chicago newspaper. For the past thirty years, 37 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,199 it hasn't been a single paper in Chicago that didn't 38 00:03:03,199 --> 00:03:06,520 have a Doughty on the police run. You and your 39 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,240 four brothers, in a sense, had cornered the crime market 40 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,479 in the Windy City. But even the Dougherty sleep. And 41 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,120 that is what you were doing this mild May morning 42 00:03:17,199 --> 00:03:21,280 at one am, when the bane of all Dougherty lives 43 00:03:21,439 --> 00:03:24,960 the City Editor. And that's the work, the mechanism that 44 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:32,319 is the bane of all Dougherty Knights. Hello, were you sleep? 45 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,120 Who is this? Andrews? No, I was just sitting here 46 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,680 waiting for you to call well, Sonny, you better rub 47 00:03:39,719 --> 00:03:42,520 the sleep out of your eyes on account of while 48 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,039 you were snoring, three hoods had the lovely suburb of 49 00:03:45,039 --> 00:03:47,680 Heeavenstone all wrapped up. Could have carried it away for 50 00:03:47,759 --> 00:03:50,080 all you know. Since when does a five and dime 51 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,080 stick up give reason the yanked me out of bed? 52 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,919 Speaker 6: Didn't I tell you? There were a couple of murders. Oh, 53 00:03:56,479 --> 00:04:00,800 one of the hoods. And you remember Judge greens Bailer, Benny, 54 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,000 not that sweet guy. Yeah, he and a couple of 55 00:04:04,039 --> 00:04:07,080 friends were playing poker. The hooch walked in. One of 56 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,319 the hoods got it, so did Benny. Hey, that's a story. 57 00:04:10,719 --> 00:04:11,400 I'll be right over. 58 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,759 Speaker 3: You drive past Benny's house en route to the Fellmall 59 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,199 Street police station. They will be breathmen in the house 60 00:04:23,319 --> 00:04:26,800 and hsterics and a few facts so you can come 61 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,959 back later. Right now, you want to learn what happened. 62 00:04:30,759 --> 00:04:34,480 One of the poker players, George Curling, has a fabulous 63 00:04:34,519 --> 00:04:35,639 eye for detail. 64 00:04:35,959 --> 00:04:38,639 Speaker 7: It was going around eleven. Up to then, we'd been 65 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,199 playing sociable poker five and ten. I was losing, so 66 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,240 I said, how about a quarter and a half? Benny 67 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,160 was way ahead. He says, make it no limit. So 68 00:04:48,399 --> 00:04:50,439 then we settled down. And when you play the. 69 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 3: Kind of poker, the house could fall down around you 70 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,160 and you wouldn't notice it. HiT's about the size of it. 71 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,800 The pots were getting big and bigger. They must have 72 00:04:57,879 --> 00:05:00,040 opened the door without anybody hearing them, and all of 73 00:05:00,079 --> 00:05:02,360 a sudden they were standing there right at the table. 74 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,879 And then first one, this tall blonde one, he says, gentlemen, 75 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,000 this is a sticker. We were so surprised, and it 76 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,240 hapened so fast you couldn't exactly be sure. 77 00:05:12,759 --> 00:05:14,519 Speaker 7: I didn't even get a good look at the other two. 78 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,319 There were two others. Yeah, Benny says, who you kidding? 79 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,240 But this tall blonde one got a gun out, and 80 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,040 Benny reaches for his coat, it's hanging over my chair. 81 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,240 And see he's a bailiff, he's got the right to 82 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:28,959 carry a gunners And before you know it, this blonde 83 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,279 kid shoots him. Then I went out of my mind. 84 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,120 I got Benny's gun out and I just squeezed the trigger, 85 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,120 and the tall blonde one fell down. Then one of 86 00:05:38,199 --> 00:05:40,720 them must have sapped me, and I went out. What 87 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,600 about the others. There were five of you in the game, Oh, 88 00:05:43,639 --> 00:05:47,480 Harry and Jerry and Willly Saltz, who owns the liquor store. 89 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,240 They just sat there. They were so scared they didn't 90 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,279 open their mouths. And you didn't get a look at 91 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,839 either of the other two. No, just one was there, 92 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,759 kind of a kid about eighteen or something before I 93 00:05:57,800 --> 00:05:59,600 conked out. I've seen this kid, you. 94 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 2: Know what he was doing. 95 00:06:00,879 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 7: He was down on the floor like holding the head 96 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,920 of this one that I shot, and like rocking it 97 00:06:05,959 --> 00:06:10,920 in his arms, and he kept saying, Doug, Doug, No Doug. 98 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:13,560 Then the other guy grabbed him and they feed it. 99 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,000 He was almost crying, crying. 100 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:26,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, at the morgue, Captain Michael's lets you get the details, 101 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,839 because the name of Doherty is still a pass in 102 00:06:29,879 --> 00:06:33,639 the Chicago Police station. So it's an easy matter for 103 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,160 you to learn the facts about Doug. The dead hood 104 00:06:37,759 --> 00:06:41,720 Douglas grimco aged thirty Larson he with loneous intent, three 105 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,839 years for old for all violation, armed robbery, five years, 106 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,600 the usual depredation and the usual form cards, the usual picture, 107 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:55,480 the usual aliases, the usual story, but no more. And 108 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,519 that noon, when the story's been written and in the edition, 109 00:06:59,319 --> 00:07:03,279 andrews Idols over to you a long needle in his hand, 110 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,000 looks like the dirtors are slipping. Look, Andrews, will you 111 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,519 talk like a human being to me for a second. 112 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,079 You told me yourself, no editor is human? All right, 113 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,279 all right? A kidd gets down on the floor and 114 00:07:13,319 --> 00:07:15,439 holds a dead guy's head in his arms and cradles. 115 00:07:16,079 --> 00:07:19,040 That don't sound like a hood to me. It's stilling 116 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:20,639 all walking in there in the middle of a poker game, 117 00:07:20,639 --> 00:07:23,199 big as life. That's about as pro a job as 118 00:07:23,199 --> 00:07:26,399 I've heard in a long time. Well, you'll straighten it out. Sure, 119 00:07:26,439 --> 00:07:32,720 you're a great health. Hey, maybe the funeral, Maybe maybe 120 00:07:32,759 --> 00:07:45,519 the funeral. The grimco gets buried this afternoon. This funeral 121 00:07:45,959 --> 00:07:49,639 is the traditional funeral, but the profusion of flowers that 122 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,639 the poor always reserved for last rides. And this too, 123 00:07:53,759 --> 00:07:57,920 doesn't sound like a professional hood. In walking through the group, 124 00:07:58,319 --> 00:08:03,079 the sad people and the clothing, you notice he was. 125 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 2: Never very good to her or to Herbie. 126 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 3: There are no whales, no screeches, no rending of clothing. 127 00:08:10,399 --> 00:08:13,439 And when you hear it again, it strikes. 128 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: You she was wise not to come. Herbie too not 129 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:17,199 to see it. 130 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,199 Speaker 3: This is a funeral. Well, the chief Mourner's absence. She 131 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,519 is his mother, and Herbie his brother. They're not there. 132 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,360 Why did you find your why in the battered house 133 00:08:30,399 --> 00:08:34,279 on East Clayburne where his sister lives. She wasn't at 134 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,080 the funeral either. Why didn't you going? 135 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:37,879 Speaker 2: My business is out of yours. 136 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 3: Why didn't your mother go? And your brother herby? 137 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:41,919 Speaker 2: You get out of here. 138 00:08:42,519 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 3: Look, miss, I'm a newspaper man. You're liably get the 139 00:08:44,879 --> 00:08:46,360 same questions asked if you're not so. 140 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 8: Polite, Wow, mama went away. 141 00:08:50,639 --> 00:08:51,399 Speaker 2: What's she going to do? 142 00:08:51,519 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 3: Go to his funeral? 143 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:54,919 Speaker 8: Stand there and have all those friends point their fingers 144 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,679 at her. So her and Herbie went away? Is that 145 00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:58,159 a crime? 146 00:08:58,799 --> 00:09:01,639 Speaker 3: Nope? Less Herbie had something to do with Doug. 147 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:03,399 Speaker 2: You get out of here. 148 00:09:03,399 --> 00:09:09,799 Speaker 8: I'd rather answer the cops. 149 00:09:10,399 --> 00:09:14,919 Speaker 3: A Bureau of Identification tells you that Herbert Grimco is seventeen, 150 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,639 that he weighs one hundred and forty two pounds, that 151 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,039 he's a graduate of the Chicago Parental School, which is 152 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,039 a reform school, and that he was sent there when 153 00:09:25,039 --> 00:09:28,440 he was thirteen on a burglary charge, and that he 154 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:33,240 assaulted three policemen resisting arrest, And that too, is a 155 00:09:33,399 --> 00:09:36,919 story dead hood's brother fugitive search out for brother of 156 00:09:36,919 --> 00:09:39,159 would be gunman at least today run the lookout for 157 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,159 seventeen year old Herbert Grimcock Doorty speaking. 158 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 8: You think you're pretty smart, don't you. 159 00:09:45,399 --> 00:09:45,799 Speaker 7: Who's this? 160 00:09:46,279 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 8: All I gotta tell you is you better get yourself 161 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,600 a lawyer. I got that story you wrote right in 162 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:52,919 front of me and my brother. Herbie is no fugitive 163 00:09:52,919 --> 00:09:55,639 from justice. You better get yourself a lawyer. 164 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 3: Mister, I don't think I'm the guy and he's a lawyer. 165 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,320 Where you get a little smart. Fella's brother gets shot, 166 00:10:01,399 --> 00:10:03,480 he doesn't show up at the funeral. He's got a record. 167 00:10:03,919 --> 00:10:05,039 He's the guy and he's the lawyer. 168 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,399 Speaker 8: They'll never give him a break just because he's Doug's brother. 169 00:10:08,799 --> 00:10:11,320 He's a good kid, just because he's Doug's brother. 170 00:10:11,399 --> 00:10:13,279 Speaker 3: Right, all right, Look, let me tell you something about 171 00:10:13,279 --> 00:10:16,519 the way police work. And maybe they're wrong, but they 172 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,519 think your kid brother is a fugitive from justice. He's 173 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,039 with your mother, isn't he. Now maybe some couple will 174 00:10:22,039 --> 00:10:23,480 see him and you make a wrong move when somebody 175 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,519 will get awful hurt. So what you say is true. 176 00:10:26,519 --> 00:10:28,679 Tell him to come back for his own good tell 177 00:10:28,759 --> 00:10:29,320 him to come back. 178 00:10:29,399 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 8: He hates the cops and they hate him because it. Doug, look, 179 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,799 you sound like a fair guy. Would you talk to 180 00:10:36,879 --> 00:10:40,639 him me? He talked to somebody who talks his language. 181 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:42,559 He's only a kid. 182 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 3: You call me when he's ready to talk. You'll figure 183 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,799 that's the end of that. But it isn't. And within 184 00:10:55,879 --> 00:10:58,960 twelve hours she walks into your office and she says, 185 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,679 if you're ready, he's waiting in a car in the 186 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,480 alley just behind the sun times. 187 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 2: They won't give me a break. They never give a 188 00:11:08,399 --> 00:11:11,720 kid like me a break. I got a record and 189 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,639 I'm Doug's brother. What good does it do if I 190 00:11:14,639 --> 00:11:16,039 tell you I didn't have anything to do with it. 191 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 3: Nothing. I wasn't nowhere near the place where were you. 192 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 2: I was kidding around the whole evening with one of 193 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:28,000 my friends with a poolstick, from ten going on till midnight. 194 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,120 But shooting was about eleven, wasn't it. 195 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,799 Speaker 3: You were suddenly in the midst of a decision, Bill Dougherty. 196 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,480 A kid is pouring out his guts, maybe the truth, 197 00:11:37,639 --> 00:11:41,440 maybe not. You've told his sister you'll help him. You've 198 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:46,080 also told yourself that you'll write and act honestly, what 199 00:11:46,159 --> 00:11:47,759 do you do now? Turn him in. 200 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:53,759 Speaker 2: I ain't lived very long, we never had nothing. But 201 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,960 every time I walk on the street after ten o'clock, 202 00:11:56,799 --> 00:11:59,399 they look at me like I'm up to something, and 203 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,480 they try to and things on me, just because it 204 00:12:01,519 --> 00:12:04,519 does because of that time I got high. 205 00:12:04,519 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 3: In for the comes, it has the ring of truth 206 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,759 and this dismal light. In a back alley and an 207 00:12:10,759 --> 00:12:15,000 old car, someone is speaking, but he considers the truth. 208 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:17,639 You take a big breath. 209 00:12:17,799 --> 00:12:18,519 Speaker 8: And say it. 210 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,399 Speaker 3: Oh, maybe you've had bad breaks, maybe the cards are 211 00:12:23,399 --> 00:12:25,919 mistacked against you. But if you want half a fair 212 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,679 shake or a quarter even, walk into the film or station, 213 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,159 talk to Captain Joey Michaels, tell them Doherty sent you. 214 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:33,279 Speaker 2: I know what they'll do. 215 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 3: I know what else you're gonna do, kid, what else? 216 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:37,279 I'll back you up. 217 00:13:02,159 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 5: This is Cy Harris returning you to your narrator and 218 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,200 the big story of William Doherty as he lived. 219 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,879 Speaker 3: It and wrote it. It's a few hours, Bill Dougherty, 220 00:13:12,519 --> 00:13:15,799 since you told Herbie Grimcoe, the brother of the Deadhood, 221 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,279 to give himself up to the police, that this was 222 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,360 the best way that you would stand behind him. And 223 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,960 now in your City Room. You're editor, Bob Andrews Sidlezova. 224 00:13:27,759 --> 00:13:31,759 No needle in his hand this time, but maybe something worse. 225 00:13:32,159 --> 00:13:33,879 I just had a call from Captain Michael's over at 226 00:13:33,879 --> 00:13:37,480 Filmore Station. That's so your kid, Herbie showed up. I 227 00:13:37,519 --> 00:13:39,519 thought he would. Three of the guys at the poker 228 00:13:39,519 --> 00:13:41,639 game identified him straight out as the second of the 229 00:13:41,639 --> 00:13:44,519 three hoods. How did they know, he admitted, They were 230 00:13:44,519 --> 00:13:45,960 so mixed up, they didn't know what was going on. 231 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:48,440 As a matter of fact, Kerlik, who killed the first 232 00:13:48,519 --> 00:13:50,639 Hoood when he saw Herbie at the police station, nearly 233 00:13:50,639 --> 00:13:52,879 strangled it. You know Benny was a cousin of his. 234 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:54,759 Oh well, it's very easy for guys to go while 235 00:13:54,799 --> 00:13:58,000 and make identifications, very easy. What did the kids say? 236 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,120 The kid doesn't deny he was there. He doesn't me 237 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,519 he was there. He's just not talking. Well, he's scared, 238 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:04,840 that's all. He's scared. So Michael says he wants you 239 00:14:04,879 --> 00:14:07,039 to come over there because the kid trusts you. All 240 00:14:07,039 --> 00:14:08,200 he wants me to do is go over and get 241 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,559 the kid to spill his guts. Huh. Look, this is 242 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,519 a kid. I told her to do something. This is 243 00:14:12,519 --> 00:14:14,200 a kid I told I. Stand back of what am 244 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:15,279 I going to do? And no, I'll sell him out. 245 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,879 That's entirely up to your bill, entirely, Michael said, for 246 00:14:17,919 --> 00:14:26,639 me to tell you, it's entirely up to you. How 247 00:14:26,679 --> 00:14:30,720 do you ride the horns of a dilemma? Answer you? 248 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,799 Don't you face what you knew all along you were 249 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,360 going to have to face. You're too loyalty to the 250 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,879 truth and to the kid who never had a break 251 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,320 and who probably isn't getting one right now. So you're 252 00:14:44,399 --> 00:14:47,039 alone with him in the fillmore station. 253 00:14:47,679 --> 00:14:50,919 Speaker 2: I tell you, I told you the whole thing. I'll 254 00:14:50,919 --> 00:14:52,360 tell you anything you want to know. 255 00:14:52,639 --> 00:14:53,919 Speaker 3: Don't tell me tell them. 256 00:14:54,039 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 2: I don't want to tell them. I don't want to 257 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:56,639 tell them nothing. 258 00:14:57,919 --> 00:14:59,919 Speaker 3: I ain't going to talk to those guys. Look, Michael, 259 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,080 it's a nicer guy as they come. He's no slugger. 260 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 2: Where's the hitting the guy without hitting him? Why don't 261 00:15:06,759 --> 00:15:07,279 you listen to me? 262 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,759 Speaker 3: Because I'd have to tell him? Would you? 263 00:15:11,799 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 2: Would you also tell him if I wasn't there? 264 00:15:17,639 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 3: Herb be? What is the truth? 265 00:15:20,399 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: Like I told you, I was in this pool place, 266 00:15:23,799 --> 00:15:26,799 the trading post it's called with my friend Lester Gate. 267 00:15:26,879 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you told me all about that pooling around 268 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,120 with a pole Q from eleven until twelve with Lester Gates. 269 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:32,200 So all right. 270 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,759 Speaker 2: As soon as I heard about the killing and how 271 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,879 Doug got shot. Now everybody knows about me and Doug 272 00:15:39,879 --> 00:15:43,679 being so close, Mar and me went up to Muskegan 273 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,600 and spent the night there, and next morning we took 274 00:15:47,639 --> 00:15:51,759 a bus and started to California. You see, Mars sick. 275 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,360 She had to go to the funeral and face a 276 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,399 friend and see him dead there. I didn't know what 277 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,200 it would have done to it. 278 00:16:01,279 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 3: Herb. Three men identified you with that card party. Three 279 00:16:05,639 --> 00:16:08,399 men said you were there that when Doug got shot, 280 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:09,840 you get down on the floor and put his head 281 00:16:09,879 --> 00:16:12,320 in your lap. They say you kept saying Doug, oh, Doug. 282 00:16:12,399 --> 00:16:14,639 It's not true. I was in the trading post. It 283 00:16:14,639 --> 00:16:16,600 doesn't it sound like you. Herby the kid wh would 284 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,360 pick up his own brother's head and say what you said? 285 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,639 Who was somebody else? Is that the best you can do? 286 00:16:21,519 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: See see now you'll tell him no, take that, and 287 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,799 they'll string me up with it. You know better than 288 00:16:27,799 --> 00:16:28,120 a cop. 289 00:16:28,159 --> 00:16:30,399 Speaker 3: I didn't say I tell anybody anything, and I won't, 290 00:16:31,759 --> 00:16:34,559 And just tell me one thing. It is what you said. 291 00:16:34,559 --> 00:16:34,960 The truth. 292 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,759 Speaker 2: I swear, I swear on on my sick mother's life. 293 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 3: All Right, we'll see. It's an oath not taken lightly, 294 00:16:50,639 --> 00:16:53,720 he means it. And although there are holes in the story, 295 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,759 you go out with the fullest kind of objectivity, either 296 00:16:57,799 --> 00:17:00,879 to patch up those holes or a drive a truck. 297 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:05,880 Throw the man at the trading post, he remembers, Yeah, 298 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,960 that's right, he ran up six racks him and what's 299 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,319 his name, Western Gates, Yeah, him and Gates six racks. 300 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:20,480 Let's see, it was going on twelvely walked in one 301 00:17:20,559 --> 00:17:26,200 hole widens going on twelve. The murder was eleven fifteen 302 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,400 pm exactly. You drive your car slowly from the house 303 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:35,839 on Adams Street to the trading posts. Time elapsed fourteen minutes. 304 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,960 If he was in on the killing, then he had 305 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,599 adequate time to get to the trading post at twelve. 306 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:43,680 The hole is bigger. 307 00:17:44,079 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 8: Well, I was going by. 308 00:17:45,279 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 9: I mean this friend of mine, he says, to meet 309 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,279 him outside the trading post, and I've seen him and 310 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:50,119 Lester walk in. 311 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:51,079 Speaker 8: They were sweatten. 312 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 3: What time was that? Miss? 313 00:17:52,599 --> 00:17:52,839 Speaker 2: Well? 314 00:17:52,839 --> 00:17:54,599 Speaker 8: I know because I was looking at my watch and 315 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,759 this fellow was supposed to meet me at eleven thirty. 316 00:17:56,799 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 9: It was five minutes to twelve. 317 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:06,079 Speaker 3: That's how late he was. The hall is widened and reinforced, 318 00:18:06,559 --> 00:18:11,000 and now min age thirty stocking smiling, walks up to you. 319 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,039 Haven't look at all of its town for you, even 320 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,039 down of the paper. They says you was up here? 321 00:18:15,559 --> 00:18:18,359 Who are you? Lester Gates? Is my name? What are 322 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,000 you looking all over town for me? About Gates? 323 00:18:20,079 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 4: Well, on account of I want to tell you about 324 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,000 Herbie and I kind of I heard you was checking 325 00:18:24,079 --> 00:18:25,599 up on Herbie. You know about me and him in 326 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:30,759 the trading post. Well, we was there. We were playing pool, 327 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,240 six or eight res we played all. 328 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 3: That's fine. I'm glad you told me. 329 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 4: I didn't tell you the time I met him there? 330 00:18:39,759 --> 00:18:49,039 Speaker 3: What time was it? About one o'clock? We started? The 331 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,759 hall is wider and jagged. Now somebody is doing a 332 00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:55,440 lot of lying. Not the owner of the bull poller 333 00:18:55,519 --> 00:18:58,799 of a girl. Why should they, but either Leicster Gates 334 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:03,079 or Herbie Grim And you're back at the film mass station. 335 00:19:03,279 --> 00:19:04,880 Two people said you were at the trading post at 336 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,480 twelve starting at twelve. The everybody in the world is 337 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:08,279 a liar, Herbie. 338 00:19:08,319 --> 00:19:11,519 Speaker 2: You're fencing me in with all this talking, you're digging 339 00:19:11,519 --> 00:19:12,039 a hole from me. 340 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,599 Speaker 3: Herbie, listen to me. Now, don't say a word. Just listen. 341 00:19:16,599 --> 00:19:18,960 I made a pledge to you. I said I'd stand 342 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,920 behind you. But you can't stand behind a liar because 343 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:22,960 he gets it and you get it too. 344 00:19:23,319 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 2: Oh I ain't a liar, I swear to you. 345 00:19:25,559 --> 00:19:27,319 Speaker 3: It takes fourteen minutes only to get from the Adam 346 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:28,880 Street House to the poolroom. You could have done it, 347 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,119 I didn't. You took your mout up to Muskegon and 348 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:32,640 you took a bus and went straight out west. Huh, 349 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:33,160 that's right? 350 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 2: Till I called up my sister to see how things were, 351 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:38,720 and she said to come back. 352 00:19:39,559 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 3: There are no buses that leave Muskegan and go straight 353 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,160 out west. They come to Chicago first. You gotta change 354 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,400 for another bus at Chicago. No kid on the run 355 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,359 would do that. You couldn't. You didn't. 356 00:19:48,079 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 2: It was a special bus they were running. 357 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,759 Speaker 3: There are no buses from Muskegan out west. None. You 358 00:19:53,799 --> 00:19:55,519 told me your mother is sick. Would you take your 359 00:19:55,519 --> 00:19:57,319 sick mother on a five day bus ride? 360 00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 7: All right? 361 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:01,559 Speaker 2: Who do you want me to say? 362 00:20:03,079 --> 00:20:05,319 Speaker 3: What do you want me to do? Who was it 363 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,960 took Doug's head in his lap and said, Doug, Oh, Doug, 364 00:20:08,079 --> 00:20:08,519 who was it? 365 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 2: You know who it was? 366 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 3: All right? 367 00:20:12,519 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 5: Now? 368 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 3: Who was with you? 369 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 2: I was alone? 370 00:20:14,279 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 3: Who was the third guy? 371 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:15,839 Speaker 10: I was alone? 372 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 3: You crazy kids? You the cold you've got for yourself. Look, 373 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,599 it's perfectly obvious what happened. You and Gates agreed that 374 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,119 if there was any trouble, you would swear you were 375 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,400 with each other from ten o'clock on. You know what 376 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,640 Gates said, He said, he met you at the trading 377 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,480 post at one o'clock. Don't you see what he's doing. 378 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,319 I was with him from ten o'clock on. He's gonna 379 00:20:36,319 --> 00:20:37,880 make you and Doug the four guys, and he walks 380 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,279 out of it clean herd blisten to me. Those three 381 00:20:40,279 --> 00:20:42,440 men who identified you, they saw Gates and it didn't register. 382 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,279 They didn't identify him. Think about how he left Doug there. 383 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:52,880 Think about that Doug was dead and. 384 00:20:53,039 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 2: Gates kip yelling how he tore his new seventy five 385 00:20:56,279 --> 00:20:57,000 dollars prod check. 386 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:08,039 Speaker 3: Now you're being smart, and as you expect, of course, 387 00:21:08,079 --> 00:21:12,559 he's disappeared. Gates. He put his knife in and disappeared. 388 00:21:13,319 --> 00:21:16,880 But this kind always leaves a trail living this kind 389 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,480 of life. They ruin others on the way to the 390 00:21:19,559 --> 00:21:24,039 latest ruination. And you find one such person, a twenty 391 00:21:24,079 --> 00:21:27,400 sixth girl, a dice girl who opens her mouth with 392 00:21:27,559 --> 00:21:29,119 extraordinary pleasure. 393 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 9: In my time, I've been taken, but never by such 394 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:32,599 a lout. 395 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 3: Where is he now? 396 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 9: Was walking around till yesterday saying how he put the 397 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,880 squeegee on the Grimko brothers, how Doug got killed in 398 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,000 herb he was taking the wrap and he was worse 399 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,240 than Scott Free. You know what that loss does, sells, 400 00:21:45,319 --> 00:21:48,599 heistlesssstless sure cases. 401 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 3: Businessman. 402 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 9: You know what time they close their places, and how 403 00:21:52,079 --> 00:21:55,000 much cash they got when they played porcocessions, the stakes, 404 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,359 things like that. Then he sells them lists well, left 405 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,000 us hold the list of the Grimco brothers cut. Then 406 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,079 he cuts himself in the deal and gets paid. 407 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 2: From both ends. 408 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:05,759 Speaker 3: That's a nice kind of louse. 409 00:22:06,519 --> 00:22:09,559 Speaker 9: Where is he, mister with the greatest of pleasure, With 410 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:15,000 the greatest of pleasure thirteen sixteenth seven avenue take him good. 411 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 3: The taking, with the help of Captain Michael's is an 412 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:28,160 easy matter. The breakdown is easy too, because his car 413 00:22:28,319 --> 00:22:31,920 was seen the witnesses who placed Herby placed Gates two 414 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,839 at the trading post at twelve, and the list, the 415 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,519 heist list, undoubtedly kept for later resale, was found in 416 00:22:40,599 --> 00:22:44,240 the thick wallet. But the ease came really in the 417 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,960 words of Herbie Grimcoll I. 418 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 2: Do hereby acknowledge that this confession is made of my 419 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:57,759 own free will, without coercion, without promises of any kind 420 00:22:57,799 --> 00:23:03,440 of immunity. My brother dug in me invest the gates 421 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,240 and the hold up of a house on Adam Street, 422 00:23:07,519 --> 00:23:11,039 and things went wrong, Just as one of the fellows 423 00:23:11,079 --> 00:23:16,319 in the card game for Sanity had three of a kind. 424 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 3: Three of a kind. The brother was the hood and 425 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:25,079 shot and got shot, the blind, pilpy heist salesman who 426 00:23:25,079 --> 00:23:28,640 betrayed his own accomplices, and the kid who never had 427 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,400 a chance and never would again. They were different, but 428 00:23:33,519 --> 00:23:37,359 also the same, three of a kind. 429 00:23:53,319 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 5: Now we read you that telegram from William Dardy of 430 00:23:55,519 --> 00:23:57,359 the Chicago Sun Times. 431 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,839 Speaker 3: Brother of dead gangster Tonight's Big Story, was found guilty 432 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,680 and sent us to twenty years. The highest salesman Gates, 433 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,440 also got twenty years and another term of twenty five 434 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,000 to forty years for armed robbery. Both are still in 435 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:20,319 the Julia penitentiary and so ends another Big Story. In 436 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,279 order to protect the names of people actually involved into 437 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,759 Night's authentic Big Story, the names of all characters and 438 00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:30,359 the dramatization were changed, with the exception of the newspaper. 439 00:24:29,839 --> 00:25:03,559 Speaker 10: Reporter welcome back. 440 00:25:03,839 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: Well, this was one of those instances where I definitely 441 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,759 clocked who our lead was. Bill was of course played 442 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:17,119 by Les Damon. Also in the cast Ruth Yorky, Holly Bester, 443 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:23,440 Betty Jane Tyler, Al Rampsen, Melruick, Bob Reddick, and of 444 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,039 course John Gibson. Now, according to the Stories behind the 445 00:25:28,039 --> 00:25:32,240 Big Story website by doctor Joe Webb, this event occurred 446 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,759 in nineteen forty seven, and one thing the radio show 447 00:25:36,839 --> 00:25:41,400 actually downplays, which probably made it more of an interesting story, 448 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,759 was that this was a poker game party where there 449 00:25:45,839 --> 00:25:51,920 were thirty people present. There were actually two people at 450 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,839 the party killed who attendees in one of the bandits, 451 00:25:55,160 --> 00:26:00,240 but the dead bandit's identity leading to the arrest of 452 00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:05,759 his brother, was true. One remained at large for a 453 00:26:05,799 --> 00:26:08,880 good amount of time, more than a year and a 454 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:16,759 half afterwards, Albert Hordeci. He was caught and tried in 455 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,319 nineteen forty nine for one of the murders and then 456 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,880 convicted of the second murder in December nineteen fifty And 457 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:32,480 there were actually six Doherty brothers who worked as reporters 458 00:26:32,519 --> 00:26:38,400 in Chicago. An interesting story overall, and it illustrates how 459 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,359 the stories on The Big Story can be different than 460 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,640 what you'll hear on other detective programs due to the 461 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,640 real life nature. Because in any fictional detective it would 462 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,960 be a case where the kid in jail didn't do it, 463 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,960 but nope, the reporter gave it his best shot. But 464 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,880 you can't do much when someone and at telling you 465 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,960 the truth. Well, now it's time to thank our Patreon 466 00:27:05,039 --> 00:27:07,559 supporter of the day, and I want to thank Jeff, 467 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:13,880 Patreon supporter since October twenty fifteen, currently supporting the podcast 468 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,480 at the Detective Sergeant level of seven dollars and fourteen 469 00:27:17,559 --> 00:27:22,039 cents or more per month. Thanks so much for your support, Jeff, 470 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,000 and that will do it for today. If you're enjoying 471 00:27:25,039 --> 00:27:29,440 the podcast, please follow us using your favorite podcast software 472 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,359 and be sure to rate and review the podcast wherever 473 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,839 you download it from. We'll be back next Tuesday with 474 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,960 another episode of the Big Story, but join us back 475 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,519 here tomorrow for Broadways. 476 00:27:41,599 --> 00:27:45,839 Speaker 3: My baitware, Oh my lord, you know, big girl and 477 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:46,279 a race. 478 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 7: And I walk out and a man grabs me, miss 479 00:27:48,519 --> 00:27:49,079 me drop things. 480 00:27:49,599 --> 00:27:50,279 Speaker 2: He brings me here. 481 00:27:50,319 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 3: Why tell me what crime I've come in? And tell me? 482 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 11: You passed a bill in a bank early this afternoon, 483 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:57,680 mister Grace, one thousand dollars bill? 484 00:27:57,759 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 10: Where'd you get it? 485 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 3: I got it the banks. It was good, didn't they? 486 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 10: Then? 487 00:28:01,759 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 3: Who are you have to stick your nosey? And I 488 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:04,400 got it. 489 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,319 Speaker 11: We're a man who sweats for everything he gets. How 490 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,119 much sweat for that thousand, mister Grace? A bill the 491 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,640 bank recognized from serial numbers as one from a five 492 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,240 year old payroll robbery where a pay messenger was murdered. 493 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:16,799 How much sweat for it? Mister Gray? 494 00:28:16,839 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 3: You know what you're talking about. 495 00:28:18,559 --> 00:28:19,319 Speaker 2: I bought it. 496 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 3: I bought it from a man on forty fifteen Broadway. 497 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,480 He said I could have it for two hundred and 498 00:28:23,519 --> 00:28:24,200 fifty dollars. 499 00:28:24,599 --> 00:28:26,519 Speaker 11: I laughed in his face, But you bought it and 500 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:27,200 so well. 501 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,079 Speaker 3: I laughed in his face at first, but when he 502 00:28:29,079 --> 00:28:30,960 said he'd go to the bank with me and proved 503 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:31,759 to me it was good. 504 00:28:31,759 --> 00:28:33,599 Speaker 11: This man was he less chaining. 505 00:28:33,799 --> 00:28:35,279 Speaker 3: I don't know who he was. 506 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 2: I never saw him before. 507 00:28:37,319 --> 00:28:39,519 Speaker 11: Maybe I can freshen it for you. Mister Grace. Cheney 508 00:28:39,599 --> 00:28:42,359 was a man we believed responsible for the robbery and murder. 509 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,720 We couldn't prove it though. We never found the money, 510 00:28:44,799 --> 00:28:47,039 but he was set up for a possession of narcotics. 511 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 3: He's out now. Less Cheney tell you that, I don't. 512 00:28:51,559 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 2: Know maybe it was him. I told you I never 513 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:59,480 saw the man before. A thousand dollars almost nothing, wouldn't 514 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:00,000 you have bought it. 515 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 7: Let's pretend you're friends. 516 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: I hope you'll be with us then. In the meantime, 517 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,440 send your comments to Box thirteen at Greatdetectives dot net, 518 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,759 follow us on Twitter at Radio Detectives, and check us 519 00:29:13,799 --> 00:29:20,400 out on Instagram, Instagram, dot com slash Great Detectives from Boise, Idaho. 520 00:29:20,599 --> 00:29:23,440 This is your host, Adam Graham signing off.