1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,560 in crime. 14 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:45,039 Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 15 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 5: We're joined today by doctor Katherine Ramsling here to talk 17 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,840 to us about Henry Lee Lucas, the Confession Killer, and 18 00:00:53,079 --> 00:00:56,000 various other true crime concepts. 19 00:00:56,119 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 3: Catherine, thank you for joining us again. 20 00:00:58,240 --> 00:00:59,799 Speaker 6: I'm glad to be here. It's always fun to be 21 00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:00,399 both you. 22 00:01:01,679 --> 00:01:03,399 Speaker 5: So start us off by telling us about some of 23 00:01:03,399 --> 00:01:06,400 the writing projects you've been working on since we last talked. 24 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,200 To you about the serial Killers Apprentice. 25 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 6: One is the Palamino Pi. That's a book for the 26 00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:16,680 horse that I ride, but that's not a very serious one. 27 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,200 And I also have the fourth book of my crime 28 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:25,120 fiction series, the Nutcracker Investigations, and this one is set 29 00:01:25,159 --> 00:01:27,760 in the Outer Banks, and it might be the last 30 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,959 one maybe, But that was a lot of fun to write. 31 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,400 And I used a number of actual cases of serial 32 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:38,079 killers blended together to write that one that's coming out 33 00:01:38,079 --> 00:01:38,599 in August. 34 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:42,159 Speaker 2: So what would make you step away from the Nutcracker series. 35 00:01:42,159 --> 00:01:44,280 It sounds like it's been fun for you to write. 36 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,159 Speaker 6: My editor left, Oh no. 37 00:01:49,599 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 7: Not because of anything you did or said. I hope no. 38 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,959 Speaker 6: I had other ideas, but I can. I will be 39 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,120 looking for other projects, so it won't stop writing. But 40 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:00,879 that's just the one that I've been working on. 41 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 2: And how many books does this make now? 42 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 6: Seventy three? 43 00:02:05,079 --> 00:02:06,519 Speaker 1: Oh my god, how. 44 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 5: I'm in awe of that ability that you have to 45 00:02:11,039 --> 00:02:12,800 just write and churn things out. 46 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 3: I keep trying, and I can't manage it. 47 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 6: Well, I'm not managing it much anymore. I used to 48 00:02:17,879 --> 00:02:21,479 do eight to ten hours every day despite working full 49 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,719 time as a professor, but anymore. I'm not as driven 50 00:02:26,159 --> 00:02:28,240 because I spent a lot of time working on a 51 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:28,800 horse farm. 52 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:32,719 Speaker 5: Can you tell us a little bit about Sonny to 53 00:02:32,719 --> 00:02:34,039 for anybody who isn't familiar. 54 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,479 Speaker 6: Sonny is a Palomino Kentucky Mountain sallehorse that I ride, 55 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,280 and he was a project for me who was lame, 56 00:02:43,599 --> 00:02:45,960 and we've gotten him back to health and I ride 57 00:02:46,039 --> 00:02:49,319 him now and in the process he told me his story. 58 00:02:49,759 --> 00:02:52,280 So we have a book called Sonny says. It's all 59 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,680 about the farm and his philosophical ancestors like Son Crates 60 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:02,560 and Son Hostotle wise things they had to say, and 61 00:03:02,599 --> 00:03:05,199 now he wants to be detective. So the book is 62 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,199 Sherlock Horse Palomino PI. 63 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:11,439 Speaker 7: I love that so much. 64 00:03:11,599 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 2: Sonny was inspired by the fact that you've worked as 65 00:03:16,599 --> 00:03:19,680 a criminal psychologist for so many years, and some of 66 00:03:19,719 --> 00:03:21,599 that must have rubbed off on your rides. 67 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,319 Speaker 6: He was more inspired by the fact that he knew 68 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,800 I was a writer and now is his time. But 69 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:28,199 he could use me to do this. 70 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,159 Speaker 2: So when you're on a long trail ride with a writer, 71 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,319 you then tell some of your story. If you're a horse. 72 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,599 Speaker 6: And believe it or not, when you're riding, you have 73 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,360 to be very present. You're the vigilant one, and Sonny 74 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:45,919 is always the lead horse, so you have to be 75 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,120 vigilant for all kinds of things that could come jumping out. 76 00:03:50,439 --> 00:03:53,360 So he trusts you and you trust him. But believe 77 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,240 it or not, when I was stuck on things, I'd 78 00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:01,520 go for ride and he would convey to mex plot, twist, store, 79 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,199 character or something when it comes to me grooming or writing. 80 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:06,360 So that was funny. 81 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,039 Speaker 5: I love that. That's really great. That is amazing. So 82 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,199 when do Sunny's books come out? I know the first 83 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,000 one is already out, what about the second? 84 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 6: One person is that the second will be out within 85 00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:19,000 probably a week or so. 86 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,959 Speaker 5: Fantastic and we will put links to that in our 87 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,399 show notes as well as all of your other books, 88 00:04:25,399 --> 00:04:27,560 all seventy three. 89 00:04:28,519 --> 00:04:30,759 Speaker 6: There's a lot out of print, like the case of 90 00:04:30,959 --> 00:04:31,680 a cookbook. 91 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,079 Speaker 5: And Catherine, we asked you to join us today to 92 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,160 talk about Henry Lee Lucas, who was called the confession Killer. 93 00:04:38,759 --> 00:04:42,480 For anyone who isn't familiar with him, because he isn't 94 00:04:42,519 --> 00:04:45,639 necessarily the most well known in the serial killer pantheon, 95 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,040 can you give us an explanation for why Henry Lee 96 00:04:48,079 --> 00:04:49,920 Lucas was called the confession killer. 97 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 6: He is most renowned for the fact that he confessed 98 00:04:55,319 --> 00:04:59,720 to multiple murders. When he went to court one day 99 00:04:59,759 --> 00:05:03,439 on weapons charity, he started confessing and said he killed 100 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,920 one hundred women. Then it was two hundred, it was 101 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,240 three hundred, that was six hundred, and I think the 102 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:14,759 last total was like three thousand, and then recanted, and 103 00:05:15,079 --> 00:05:19,680 then recanted the recantation, and then it was clear that 104 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,600 many of these were false confessions, most of them by 105 00:05:22,639 --> 00:05:27,040 fire were false confessions. So he was this very manipulative, 106 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,319 slick guy who took advantage of all these things that 107 00:05:30,399 --> 00:05:34,040 law enforcement really wanted him to say, and he figured 108 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:35,839 out how to say it in a way that convinced 109 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:41,399 them that he had solid confessions to hundreds of crimes murders. 110 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:46,199 And so he's a confession murder because he just confessing confessed. 111 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,800 He spent so much time going from place to place 112 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,800 in the company of law enforcement from I think as 113 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:57,000 many as twenty seven states, and also he confessed to 114 00:05:57,199 --> 00:06:01,480 several countries Canada, Japan said he drove to Japan in 115 00:06:01,519 --> 00:06:01,920 his car. 116 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 7: Well, that's unusual. 117 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 2: I want to see the routing for the driving the 118 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:10,959 car to Japan. 119 00:06:11,199 --> 00:06:15,079 Speaker 6: He said he delivered the kool aid to Jim Jones's town. 120 00:06:15,879 --> 00:06:17,079 Speaker 3: Why didn't hear that one? 121 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:17,879 Speaker 7: W wow? 122 00:06:18,639 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 6: Well, yes, you know. The funny thing is he's saying 123 00:06:21,079 --> 00:06:24,439 some of these things and nobody, like he told the 124 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,680 guy the film Croup from Japan, I drove there, and 125 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,279 there's some in your country, And nobody at that point said, 126 00:06:32,959 --> 00:06:34,040 wait a minute. 127 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:42,879 Speaker 2: Show me how you drove here from the United States. 128 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 6: And just an old, crappy, old car. And yet unbelievably 129 00:06:45,519 --> 00:06:48,079 he could have put on many thousands of miles to 130 00:06:48,079 --> 00:06:52,199 get all over the place, but still he officers were 131 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:57,160 closing cases based only on his confession, no corroborating evidence, 132 00:06:57,399 --> 00:07:00,560 and so it became. It was nineteen eighties and there 133 00:07:00,639 --> 00:07:03,800 wasn't really a lot of work on how to figure 134 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,800 out if somebody's falsely confessing. People didn't really think somebody 135 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,519 would confess to something they didn't do. There was nothing 136 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:12,560 like that in those days. I think it was a 137 00:07:12,639 --> 00:07:15,279 really interesting time for him to have done. So I 138 00:07:15,279 --> 00:07:18,319 don't think it could be done today anywhere near as 139 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,920 easily as he did. But he had multiple reasons why 140 00:07:22,959 --> 00:07:25,319 he did it, So we'll get into that at some point. Too, 141 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:27,519 So that's why it's called a confession killer. 142 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 2: When you say in twenty twenty five, Catherine, that it 143 00:07:31,759 --> 00:07:34,720 would be much more difficult for somebody who's obviously a 144 00:07:34,759 --> 00:07:38,959 serial liar in addition to being a killer, it would 145 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,319 be more difficult for him to confess multiple times. Are 146 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,959 you referring to advance forensics and. 147 00:07:47,399 --> 00:07:52,079 Speaker 6: What it's a person to be embarraed like they were 148 00:07:52,079 --> 00:07:56,959 embarrassed by him, so they're more careful. I remember one guy, 149 00:07:57,079 --> 00:07:59,720 I think his name was Robert Brown out of Colorado, 150 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,800 who confessed to forty eight murders, and at the forty 151 00:08:02,839 --> 00:08:05,560 nine murders at the time, it was one more than 152 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:11,120 Gary Ridgeway. So I contacted him and said, beware, he 153 00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:14,839 may just want the record, and that officer who was 154 00:08:14,879 --> 00:08:18,759 in Texas said, I'm on it. He said, because we 155 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:23,120 do not have corroborating information for most of what he's saying, 156 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:28,720 no one's taken that seriously, and that they were roundly embarrassed. 157 00:08:28,759 --> 00:08:32,799 And now it was a documentary out that shows how 158 00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:37,600 they fed him information, how they did inadvertently. He showed 159 00:08:37,639 --> 00:08:42,799 him crime scene photos, allowed him access to files. It's unbelievable. 160 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,120 But now we have a lot more sense, forensic sense 161 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,600 of how interrogation should go, so that you're not giving 162 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:56,559 information and letting the person have to tell you stuff 163 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:01,600 rather than you refreshing their memory. As the Texas Rangers 164 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:06,039 like to say, Yeah, it's a combination of we want 165 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,279 integrity here, why because we don't want to follow a 166 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,879 false confession while the real killer might be gaining time 167 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:14,840 to get away with this. 168 00:09:15,279 --> 00:09:20,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, well he's busy spinning tall tales. Someone else, yes, 169 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,159 has gotten away with murder. 170 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 6: And in that case, multiple people. I think there were 171 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,320 at least twenty of his once he confessed to were 172 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,039 closed to other people. I'm sure there are more by now. 173 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:38,519 But once once some reporters started saying, this doesn't add up. 174 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,519 There's no chance he could be doing this in the 175 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,720 order in which they're talking about, because they're just too 176 00:09:44,759 --> 00:09:47,240 far away from these incidents. They're too far away from 177 00:09:47,279 --> 00:09:52,000 one another. They began to start looking at the actual 178 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,360 files and seeing that Lucas wasn't even getting things right 179 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,759 and the officers didn't seem to care. 180 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,759 Speaker 5: Let's the start was a very obvious premise. Why in 181 00:10:03,799 --> 00:10:08,080 the world would someone confess to hundreds of murders that 182 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,600 he did not commit. You mentioned this idea of maybe 183 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,279 wanting notoriety to have the record, But what sort of 184 00:10:14,279 --> 00:10:18,679 psychological need is somebody serving who's confessing willingly to hundreds 185 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:20,080 of crimes that they just did not do. 186 00:10:21,159 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 6: Lucas had a number of motives. It doesn't cover everybody's 187 00:10:24,399 --> 00:10:26,799 potential motives, but he has quite a few. And the 188 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:31,360 first one was he was arrested on a weapons chargement. 189 00:10:31,399 --> 00:10:35,240 They suspected him of more serious crimes because he was 190 00:10:35,279 --> 00:10:38,840 associated with some missing people, and so they threw him 191 00:10:38,879 --> 00:10:43,159 into a cold cell with no bedding, and I think 192 00:10:43,159 --> 00:10:46,559 he lasted four days before he called the jailer over 193 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,759 and said, I've got some things to tell you. So 194 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:55,039 his original motive was to improve his situation. But once 195 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,320 he put out he went to court and he said 196 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,519 I've killed one hundred women. That was more for attention, 197 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,879 because he was figuring out that they he was going 198 00:11:06,919 --> 00:11:08,679 to get some privileges, he was going to get some 199 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,879 good meals, he was going to get a good bed 200 00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:14,559 if he were delivering information that was helping them to 201 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:19,240 close cases. And then as things moved along, there was 202 00:11:19,279 --> 00:11:23,720 a sister, a nun, sister Clemmy, who got really close 203 00:11:23,759 --> 00:11:29,039 to him and began to lead him spiritually into why 204 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,039 the confessing was the will of God and that he 205 00:11:32,159 --> 00:11:35,720 was doing a good thing clearing these cases and clearing 206 00:11:35,759 --> 00:11:39,840 his soul, and so that then for a while became 207 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:44,840 the prominent part of his motivation. But also some of 208 00:11:44,879 --> 00:11:48,879 the investigators, especially the Texas strangers in Sheriff Boutwell, who 209 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:53,440 was his sponsor, they were praising him. This is a guy, 210 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:58,039 a nobody, a loser is of life who was getting 211 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,080 praise and being called to hero for you're doing the 212 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,679 right you're doing a great thing. He was given an office, 213 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,960 he was allowed to wander around the prison, He had 214 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,960 access to places that were under security locks, he was 215 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,320 given files, he was he got phone calls from all 216 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,639 over the country. So this became a big deal to him. 217 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:25,279 And also he wanted to please people. He was the 218 00:12:25,399 --> 00:12:29,080 kind of person that like in Lonesome Dove, there's a 219 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,000 guy named Jake, where they say any window blow him 220 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,000 and he'll just go with whatever the influences. And that 221 00:12:35,159 --> 00:12:39,480 was Lucas. Absolutely, if it sounded he's getting attention or 222 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,799 he's getting something in return, he'd say whatever you wanted 223 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,080 him to say. If there were a couple of times 224 00:12:46,159 --> 00:12:48,799 when somebody would say, when one of the officers would say, 225 00:12:49,399 --> 00:12:52,759 can you help us out here, Henry, we got case. 226 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,600 Oh sure, I'll do it too. There. So there were 227 00:12:56,759 --> 00:13:00,200 so many motivations for him at different periods of time 228 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,200 while he's doing this, But a lot of it was 229 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,200 that kind of thing that he had with sister Klemmy 230 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,919 and Sheriff Boutwell. The three of them were like a community, 231 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,639 and Boutwell was firing him around. There was a Japanese 232 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,720 film company that came in the hoarders who would come 233 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,080 in and write about it. It really became a big deal. 234 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,799 So it was enhancing his status, was getting him better 235 00:13:22,919 --> 00:13:26,559 living conditions. He had one death penalty, so he knew 236 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,120 they were never going to put him to death as 237 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:33,080 long as he was confessing, so it potentially gave him 238 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:37,000 more years to live and it made him famous. This 239 00:13:37,039 --> 00:13:40,559 is a guy who really just was nobody, and now 240 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,639 he's the biggest serial killer in the world. I know. 241 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,440 It was very easy for him to achieve that status. 242 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 2: Where was he incarcerated when he was starting this spree 243 00:13:54,519 --> 00:13:56,759 of confessions was. 244 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 6: The exact town. It was in Texas, and he was 245 00:14:02,399 --> 00:14:07,399 moved around a lot. Sometimes offices would come to him, 246 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,639 but sometimes he was taken to other locations. And I 247 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,639 remember Waco County. I think it was right. They thought 248 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,919 something's up with this. This doesn't make much sense, and 249 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,039 there were people who tested him with fake cases, and 250 00:14:23,159 --> 00:14:27,399 he came through and confessed to them. But it's still 251 00:14:27,679 --> 00:14:31,320 it didn't stop. It didn't stop the rangers from continuing this. 252 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,799 I don't call it a hoax, even though they did 253 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:39,039 call it that it was. I think they were well intentioned, 254 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,679 but they were sloppy at what they were. You can 255 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,360 see it on camera. I'm not just saying that. You 256 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:51,000 see their techniques on camera, showing him crime scene photos, 257 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:56,639 telling him information leading him to close the case. These 258 00:14:56,679 --> 00:15:03,080 are all amateur things for stigators to do, and so 259 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,679 that's that was a problem. But then he would go 260 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:07,639 he'd get these trips. 261 00:15:08,279 --> 00:15:10,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking about this. These are like field 262 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,480 trips if you're normally locked up in a prison somewhere. 263 00:15:14,399 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 6: Not just field trips. 264 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 7: There. 265 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 6: He went to long distances. In one place, he cleared 266 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,679 a suicide as a homicide, so the woman got the 267 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,320 insurance payout and they had a big party. The law 268 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,799 enforcement brought in allegedly brought in hookers and. 269 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 3: Oh my god, Wow, I missed that from the documentary. 270 00:15:36,919 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 7: Wow, they didn't mention. 271 00:15:38,759 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 6: That allegedly because as a story I read that they 272 00:15:42,399 --> 00:15:46,759 actually got He got a lot of He was taken 273 00:15:46,879 --> 00:15:50,080 for steak dinners, he was taken love. And they said 274 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,759 they didn't have any fear of him. They would let 275 00:15:52,799 --> 00:15:55,759 him wander around without handcuffs on or any medicals of anything, 276 00:15:56,799 --> 00:16:00,399 and honest, and they would obey his orders. He was 277 00:16:00,559 --> 00:16:03,960 ordering them around and they would do whatever it took 278 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,080 to keep getting these confessions. So it all started in Texas, 279 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,080 but he went to a lot of different places. 280 00:16:11,519 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 5: I just feel like, shouldn't law enforcement agencies, like not 281 00:16:17,159 --> 00:16:20,279 only the rangers, but also the others who were flying 282 00:16:20,279 --> 00:16:21,960 in from across the country to talk to him. 283 00:16:22,279 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 3: Shouldn't somebody have been able to tell that he was lying? 284 00:16:25,879 --> 00:16:29,240 Was this some sort of mass delusion? Like what was 285 00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:29,919 happening here? 286 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 6: Skillful? And it was the eighties, nineteen eighties, so we 287 00:16:33,279 --> 00:16:36,120 have to keep that in mind. They had cases they 288 00:16:36,159 --> 00:16:39,759 wanted to clear. There was one time when they filled 289 00:16:39,799 --> 00:16:45,639 an auditorium with officers from I think, oh more than 290 00:16:45,639 --> 00:16:50,240 twenty maybe twenty twenty seven states with their case files 291 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,600 asking him, and he's in the middle answer their questions, 292 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,720 and he's like a book, a mind reader who's reading 293 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,720 clues off of you and watching your response. And I 294 00:17:00,759 --> 00:17:03,360 think I stabbed her in the back. No, it wasn't 295 00:17:03,399 --> 00:17:05,279 the back, guy, It must have turned her. So he'd 296 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:09,079 watched their face and if it looked like he wasn't 297 00:17:09,079 --> 00:17:11,720 saying quite the right thing, he'd back off. And then 298 00:17:11,799 --> 00:17:14,119 he'd tried to get them to tell him what he 299 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,480 needed to say, and they would quite often, Oh wow, No, 300 00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:20,440 she was turned over than when we found her. But 301 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,519 then he's just the cold reading that psychics. 302 00:17:23,559 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 2: Dude, it's just regurgitating what they're telling him. Though, say 303 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,759 that again, he's just regurgitating what they're telling you. 304 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 6: Because he's adding things that they don't know. Yeah, he's 305 00:17:36,519 --> 00:17:40,200 adding things. Is it's sounding very much like he must 306 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,279 have the whole story, because he knows a lot more 307 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,039 than we know. If you're a good storyteller and you 308 00:17:46,079 --> 00:17:50,839 can pull all kinds of Look at Casey Anthony, how 309 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,400 fast she was at her feet with all these facts. 310 00:17:53,799 --> 00:17:57,160 It turned out not to be true, but she could 311 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,759 pull these names out of the air. And that was 312 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,720 it was quite a talent, and Lucas had that too. 313 00:18:02,839 --> 00:18:07,079 He had a way to fabricate facts that made it 314 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:08,279 sound like as part of the case. 315 00:18:09,759 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 5: So Lucas had a partner named Audust Tool, and he 316 00:18:13,559 --> 00:18:16,880 allegedly perpetrated some of these crimes with Autist Tool, though 317 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:18,240 I don't think it was all of them. 318 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:19,319 Speaker 3: I think it was just some of them. 319 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,799 Speaker 5: So what do we know about Autis And was he 320 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,359 falsely confessing to these crimes as well, or was he 321 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,960 actually linked to some of them, like via DNA? 322 00:18:29,079 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 3: What do we know about this guy? 323 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,279 Speaker 6: There was no DNA in the eighties, of course. Yeah. 324 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,920 The first DNA in our country is nineteen eighty seven, 325 00:18:37,519 --> 00:18:40,440 and at that there were very few cases, very expensive 326 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,359 process and it wasn't really in use to the early nineties, 327 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,200 so we're not really talking about that kind of linkage. 328 00:18:47,559 --> 00:18:49,799 Audust too. I'm glad you called him Audist because many 329 00:18:49,839 --> 00:18:54,200 people call him Otis, but Henry certainly called him Audist 330 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:58,000 anytime he referred to him. And this is an interesting duo. 331 00:18:58,839 --> 00:19:03,799 Both of them had very abusive, terrible childhoods. Both of 332 00:19:03,839 --> 00:19:06,240 them were dressed as girls by their mothers. 333 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:07,559 Speaker 7: That's such a rare thing. 334 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 6: And yet both of them were, so it was very strange. 335 00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:14,759 They met in Florida like a skid row place and 336 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:19,240 got along, became lovers, and they would go on the road, 337 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,799 and who knows how many people they claimed have murdered 338 00:19:23,839 --> 00:19:27,960 they actually did. Ottis was his own He was a 339 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,880 serial killer in his own right. And both of them 340 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,680 claimed to have killed when they were fourteen, first when 341 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:39,799 they were fourteen, now Lucas retracted that later, but who knows. 342 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,359 And both of them killed in sexual situations when they 343 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,400 were fourteen. Henry Lucas killed a girl that he was 344 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,720 trying to have sex with and at least the way 345 00:19:51,759 --> 00:19:55,000 he described it. And then Oudis killed a guy that 346 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,680 he claimed was hitting on him. So they start young, 347 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,440 both tortured animals. As two talked about being part of 348 00:20:01,559 --> 00:20:04,920 the Hand of Satan, the sort of Satanic occult group. 349 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,319 He said that his grandmother would go dig up bodies 350 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,160 and to get body parts, things like that. How much 351 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,960 of this is true, we don't know. We really don't know. 352 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,279 That he loved making up stories and he would catch 353 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,720 There was a point at which he was in prison 354 00:20:20,799 --> 00:20:23,160 in Florida and Lucas was in prison in Texas, and 355 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,599 they had them talking on the phone and they were 356 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,400 just egging each other on and having a blast because 357 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,880 they thought this was fun to kid with law enforcement. 358 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:36,079 And they're talking about cannibalism and barbecue sauce and you know, 359 00:20:36,079 --> 00:20:40,599 all these absurd things. And unfortunately the officers were eating 360 00:20:40,599 --> 00:20:47,519 it up, so to speak, barbecue sause. But they were 361 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,519 just as as Lucas said, just funning with them. Having 362 00:20:51,799 --> 00:20:54,839 it was a game. And that's another motive for false 363 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,000 confessions is duping delight. We can fool them, They're at 364 00:20:59,079 --> 00:21:03,039 no cost to me. I can have fun with law 365 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,519 enforcement and make them look stupid. And Lucas said that 366 00:21:06,799 --> 00:21:09,400 many times that was why he was doing this. 367 00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 5: Honest tool actually did confess, she said to the murder 368 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,400 of Adam Walsh at one point or another, and recanted 369 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:23,119 later again, did they ever figure out? Did they ever 370 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:24,359 come down? 371 00:21:23,559 --> 00:21:28,279 Speaker 6: They closed the case, and I think they simply closed 372 00:21:28,279 --> 00:21:32,160 it because they were so sick of everybody second guessing 373 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:34,839 did he do it? And didn't he do it? It 374 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,359 was he couldn't. I think there was no DNA run 375 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:42,279 and they lost some of the evidence, I believe, so 376 00:21:42,319 --> 00:21:45,839 they couldn't really make a solid case. They had to 377 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,240 at least two confessions for me, if not more. But 378 00:21:48,279 --> 00:21:51,200 they also did have him denying it too, so it 379 00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:53,319 was a difficult case. But I know that they eventually 380 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,359 did close it and say that he's the guy. And 381 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,000 I think that John Walsh, Adam Walsh's father, said he's 382 00:21:59,000 --> 00:21:59,759 satisfied with that. 383 00:22:00,559 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 2: John Walsh also said to me in a one on 384 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,480 one conversation for what it's worth, that the more he 385 00:22:07,599 --> 00:22:11,079 learned about the Colonial Parkway murders my sister's case, the 386 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:17,440 more reminded him of Adam's case. With the mistakes, discarded evidence, 387 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,680 the arrogance of the FBI. It just goes on and on. 388 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,960 And because I had said to him, John, you're so 389 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,960 pro law enforcement on the air, and he said, that's 390 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,799 on the air. This was at the time that America's 391 00:22:31,839 --> 00:22:35,359 most wanted was on the air. So I'm not sure 392 00:22:35,519 --> 00:22:41,319 if mister Walsh accepts this idea that autist's tool was 393 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,319 responsible for Adam's death or not. I think he's probably 394 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,000 as a father, has probably moved on and. 395 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 6: You moved on. I'm not sure everybody in that family has. 396 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,160 But I don't have any reason to doubt him either, 397 00:22:57,559 --> 00:22:59,680 even though he's got a persona on the air that 398 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,079 to an audience that loves things good or ebook black 399 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,640 and white, that I don't know that he would have 400 00:23:05,759 --> 00:23:08,920 just said I accept this if he didn't right agree, 401 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,960 it's about his son, And I don't know all the 402 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,759 things that went on, because they really didn't disclose why 403 00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:19,599 they decided to close the case. At least maybe they have. 404 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,039 In my understanding, it was a back room thing where 405 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,519 they talked to the parents, didn't really make the public 406 00:23:26,559 --> 00:23:27,920 aware of everything they had. 407 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,519 Speaker 2: Here's something I really struggle with though, in these stories. 408 00:23:32,519 --> 00:23:38,039 When we're talking about Lucas Antool, we're dealing with probably dozens, 409 00:23:38,079 --> 00:23:44,519 if not hundreds, of really smart, accomplished investigators, and I 410 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,559 think of law enforcement people. Kristen may back me up 411 00:23:47,599 --> 00:23:50,880 on this, or she can feel free to disagree. They're 412 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:56,799 usually very smart, cynical. They've seen it all, They've worked 413 00:23:57,039 --> 00:24:01,480 tough cases around the country. Why are they falling for 414 00:24:01,599 --> 00:24:06,359 this stuff? You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be 415 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:14,240 right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back 416 00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:15,880 here at mindover Murder. 417 00:24:18,279 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 6: Again forty years ago. You have to keep that in mind. 418 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:27,279 They're not trained in seeing and I think it was aboutwis. 419 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,079 I can't believe anybody would confess to the many conscious 420 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,599 to get a state dinner. But he was not seeing 421 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,319 all the motivations that Lucas had going for him. He 422 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:42,720 was not recognizing the sister Clemmy angle of clearing your 423 00:24:42,759 --> 00:24:45,680 soul and being how heroic you're being and you're doing 424 00:24:45,799 --> 00:24:48,960 the good work of God. He wasn't seeing the bigger 425 00:24:49,039 --> 00:24:51,640 picture he was, and he was all caught up in 426 00:24:51,799 --> 00:24:54,960 ego stuff too. I think that's pretty clear. It's not 427 00:24:55,039 --> 00:25:01,400 the only case that some things were mishandled with him. 428 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,240 I don't want to get myself in trouble with law enforcements, 429 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:06,480 so I'm not going to say I'm not going to 430 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,400 make a judgment a blank at judgment about how smart 431 00:25:09,559 --> 00:25:14,480 or efficient or effective there as a whole. I think 432 00:25:14,519 --> 00:25:17,960 you have to look at the actual case, who was 433 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:23,000 involved in it. Like the Confession Killer documentary is a 434 00:25:23,079 --> 00:25:26,799 Bob Prince is in it. He was part of this, 435 00:25:27,799 --> 00:25:31,279 And even right after you show a clip of them 436 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:37,640 making huge mistakes, he's denying any of that happened. It's 437 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,680 right there on the video and you're saying it didn't happen. 438 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,400 What do you make of that. He's not going to 439 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,039 say anything against the Texas Rangers no matter what. I 440 00:25:48,039 --> 00:25:51,960 don't care what you have in video, So make of 441 00:25:52,039 --> 00:25:53,799 that what you will. But I think if you watch 442 00:25:53,839 --> 00:25:58,240 that documentary you will see many contradictions. Now that's the 443 00:25:58,279 --> 00:26:01,799 Texas part of it, right. We've got investigators coming in 444 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:07,279 from half of the states, if not more, and they're 445 00:26:07,319 --> 00:26:12,319 coming in and really earnestly trying to close the case, 446 00:26:12,519 --> 00:26:17,160 and they don't have much evidence. Now we've got Lucas saying, oh, yeah, 447 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,720 I was able to talk about different features of the 448 00:26:20,799 --> 00:26:23,359 landscape and to say, oh, yeah, there was a body 449 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,400 right by the car because he saw the picture. He 450 00:26:26,519 --> 00:26:29,200 was allowed access to the files, but they might not 451 00:26:29,279 --> 00:26:32,200 have even known he saw the files. And if they 452 00:26:32,279 --> 00:26:35,160 didn't know he saw the files, and he's describing a 453 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,799 house with a very peculiar feature that only the killer 454 00:26:39,839 --> 00:26:43,440 could not. Of course, they're going to believe it because 455 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,720 they don't know what he's being shown before they get there. 456 00:26:48,039 --> 00:26:50,279 So that's a lot of the story that we don't 457 00:26:50,319 --> 00:26:53,160 know now when you look at what the journalists were doing. 458 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,759 Hugh Ainsworth Steve Ager was a criminology professor. He interviewed 459 00:26:58,839 --> 00:27:02,720 Lucas for forty and you interviewed this tool also. The 460 00:27:02,759 --> 00:27:06,119 two of them try to get multiple perspectives. So you 461 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,599 have those people coming in and now it's cop versus journalists. 462 00:27:10,799 --> 00:27:14,519 Have almost this war game over. You know what's going 463 00:27:14,559 --> 00:27:18,960 on with Henry Le Lucas. Don't take my star witness 464 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,039 away from me, don't take the glory of all these 465 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,160 cases closed away from us, and the journalists going, maybe 466 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,039 none of your cases are any good. So you get 467 00:27:28,079 --> 00:27:31,359 the two extremes and you got this conflict going, and 468 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,559 you have newspapers trying to get a big scoop on it. 469 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,680 So much dynamic was happening at a time when there 470 00:27:37,759 --> 00:27:40,200 was very little forensic training. 471 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:43,759 Speaker 3: It is very interesting. 472 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,079 Speaker 5: There are six cases here in Tidewater that investigators had 473 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,519 taken to Lucas to try to clear to. 474 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 3: See was he involved in all of them? 475 00:27:53,599 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 5: And since then, four of those cases have been linked 476 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,640 via DNA to other people who are not Lucas, and 477 00:28:01,759 --> 00:28:04,359 there's two left. And I'm very curious. I've been trying 478 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,079 to do some research and unfortunately not getting very far 479 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,279 because law enforcement doesn't want to talk about these cases. 480 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 3: It's made about. 481 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,319 Speaker 6: It was so frustrating. Because it is why not talk 482 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:22,079 about them? They were exactly some long ago. Nobody in 483 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,759 the current department is going to be embarrassed. So what 484 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,680 is what's the problem? And I know part of the 485 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,839 problem is what's going on right now with true crime culture, 486 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,400 with everybody jumping in and taking ownership of cases and 487 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:42,319 claiming their speculation is fact. And I think they just 488 00:28:42,519 --> 00:28:46,480 don't want to get into the fray of that. I think. 489 00:28:46,559 --> 00:28:50,039 But I do believe if you were to develop trust 490 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,839 with any of the officers who had access to those cases, 491 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,559 you would and you would eventually get access. 492 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,519 Speaker 5: I'm hoping so, because ultimately, at the end of the day, 493 00:29:01,559 --> 00:29:04,359 it really is just getting justice for these victims. 494 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,759 Speaker 6: Yeah, the last thing these guys want, to women want 495 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:13,319 is a podcaster coming along. I'd say, look how mishandled 496 00:29:13,319 --> 00:29:17,079 this case was by that department, And because you're seeing 497 00:29:17,119 --> 00:29:18,880 a lot of those podcasts out there. 498 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,759 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that is not at all what we want. 499 00:29:21,839 --> 00:29:25,079 Speaker 5: What we want is to ensure about trut Yeah, absolutely, 500 00:29:25,119 --> 00:29:28,400 but boy, you do have to wonder how many of 501 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:33,440 these cases from that era that he confessed to need 502 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,000 a second look. Not because we want law enforcement to 503 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,480 be ashamed or embarrassed, But because there is a victim 504 00:29:39,519 --> 00:29:43,039 out there and families along with it who need to 505 00:29:43,039 --> 00:29:44,480 see justice served. 506 00:29:44,519 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 6: And that second look needs to be soon. Because people died, 507 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,119 evidence is lost or corrupted. Yeah, that's the problem. But 508 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,640 the number of families who were told it was Lucas 509 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:01,799 and then found out later through DNA, a confession, a 510 00:30:01,799 --> 00:30:06,000 different confession that it wasn't Lucas. Imagine what they had 511 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,559 to go through, especially if they weren't really sure, are 512 00:30:10,599 --> 00:30:14,920 you sure it's him? And then we're stonewalled and then 513 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,599 years later come back to it and find out, oh 514 00:30:18,759 --> 00:30:24,039 never find was not him? Oh God, the anguish of that, 515 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,000 the mishandling of their loved one was horrifying. 516 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:36,279 Speaker 2: If anything, my default position going forward now would be 517 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:42,599 if Henry Lee, Lucas or hotiest Tool for that matter, 518 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:48,240 confess to something. Given their plethora of lies here, I 519 00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:51,960 actually think a safer assumption is if those two idiots 520 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,799 said they did it, you can probably take it to 521 00:30:54,839 --> 00:30:56,680 the bank that they didn't do it. 522 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,519 Speaker 6: Great that I would have the same default position now. 523 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,200 Steve Egger, who did interview them, he's no longer alive, 524 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:09,240 but who did interview him, estimated about sixty. I think 525 00:31:09,279 --> 00:31:13,240 that's a high number. I think it's not sixty at all. 526 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,440 And I really think the way Tool and Lucas played 527 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,039 off each other entertaining themselves, I think there were some 528 00:31:22,119 --> 00:31:24,759 they did. I don't think it was anywhere near the 529 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:30,079 high and maybe we'll never know who their actual victims were. 530 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:30,319 Speaker 4: Now. 531 00:31:30,359 --> 00:31:33,079 Speaker 5: I remember back in the I think it was pre pandemic, 532 00:31:33,119 --> 00:31:36,720 but only barely when the name Samuel Little came to 533 00:31:36,839 --> 00:31:39,839 the forefront of public consciousness. 534 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 6: Because stroke killer. 535 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,519 Speaker 5: Yeah, because he had He ended up ultimately confessing to 536 00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:46,440 I think it was ninety three. 537 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,119 Speaker 3: Sixty have been confirmed? 538 00:31:49,079 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 6: Do? 539 00:31:49,279 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 3: People like Henry. 540 00:31:50,319 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 6: Lucas said it was fifty something. 541 00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 5: It was the last time I checked, it said sixty. 542 00:31:55,319 --> 00:31:57,200 But I guess who really He did. 543 00:31:57,079 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 6: Something similar to Lucas and he it was Axis Ranger 544 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,400 who actually kind of go into But he did something 545 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,599 similar to Lucas. He drew the pictures right, yeah, and 546 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:12,599 again we but he did something in a more predatory 547 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,880 way than Lucas did. He would pick victims that he knew, 548 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:21,920 like drug addicts, sex work, black sex workers. He would 549 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,279 pick people he knew were not going to have many 550 00:32:25,319 --> 00:32:30,039 resources devoted to solving it. And he traveled a lot, 551 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,160 and there are very clear travel records for him, so's 552 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,839 he's more credible. And in fact, because he fought not 553 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,599 to be convicted. He was picked up in Los Angeles 554 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:47,880 and he really fought those convictions and then he wouldn't 555 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,960 talk at all. Unlike Lucas, he wasn't using this to 556 00:32:51,079 --> 00:32:55,119 improve his status or anything. So I would guess I 557 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,519 don't know if ninety three is it, but he was 558 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,559 killing for decades and the way in his manner of 559 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,559 killing was very calculated, in a way that Lucas's wasn't. Now, 560 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:11,519 Lucas said he used all manner of weapons and everything 561 00:33:11,559 --> 00:33:15,559 but poison, and really it was absurd when they put 562 00:33:15,599 --> 00:33:19,759 all the different ways people had died. It was absurd 563 00:33:19,799 --> 00:33:22,839 to think one person was using all these things, whereas 564 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,319 with Little it is the same thing over and over. 565 00:33:26,359 --> 00:33:28,799 Then mostly the same type of victim here and there, 566 00:33:28,839 --> 00:33:31,440 where it was a runaway or somebody who just got 567 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,599 off a bus or something like that, but it was 568 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,039 pretty consistent. So if you were to look at him 569 00:33:37,079 --> 00:33:40,279 against Lucas, he's got a lot more going for him 570 00:33:40,279 --> 00:33:41,640 in terms of credibility. 571 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 2: I think in the Samuel Little example, do you feel 572 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,200 like the paintings, the drawings that he did of his victims, 573 00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:53,559 and then the stories that he told that went with them. 574 00:33:54,519 --> 00:33:58,920 I remember reading that the detectives were surprised at his 575 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,160 level of re call. He seemed to remember a lot 576 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,759 about where he was and when this happened, and a 577 00:34:06,799 --> 00:34:09,719 bit about who the women were, And as you said, 578 00:34:10,039 --> 00:34:15,960 he definitely zer it in on marginalized individuals. But do 579 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:23,239 you think the drawings helped cement Little as a potential 580 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,639 killer in many of those consultations. 581 00:34:26,039 --> 00:34:30,599 Speaker 6: If he captured something excuse me, if he captured something 582 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:35,679 unique about the victim in terms of their parents or 583 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,760 where they're found, or jewelry or a tattoo something, Yes, 584 00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:44,280 but it wasn't like he was like an amazing artist. 585 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,840 Now it had to it would have to be things 586 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:54,039 that you know, with the circumstances, it would have to 587 00:34:54,079 --> 00:34:58,920 be things that stand out that make that drawing seem authentic. 588 00:34:59,039 --> 00:35:02,239 Now we also have DNA now that we didn't have 589 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:07,320 with Lucas, to confirm some of those. But I think 590 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,280 if you compare the two side by side, you really 591 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:15,039 can see how lucas confessions are all over the place 592 00:35:15,079 --> 00:35:19,880 and absurd and there's no way he covered all that 593 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,360 that many miles in that limited period of time, and 594 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,880 we definitely have records of him being elsewhere and he 595 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:30,559 didn't drive a thousand miles in one day to then 596 00:35:30,599 --> 00:35:34,159 get back to check into work. You don't have that 597 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,480 with Sam Little, and I also do I go with 598 00:35:37,639 --> 00:35:42,239 his reluctance. He wasn't keen about talking, and you'll find 599 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,440 something similar with Richard Cottingham and the kinds of confessions 600 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,079 he's doing now, whereas initially he wasn't saying anything, but 601 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,880 little by little, some people have won him over that 602 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,840 Lucas was the initiator of it all. That makes a 603 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,599 big difference. There was something else about him about the 604 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,480 Oh there was one thing he said to I can't 605 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,920 remember which investigator, but he said, you figure out if 606 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,280 it's one of my victims, because I always left him 607 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,480 naked with only their socks on. And I thought, well, 608 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,719 then you could just go look at every single victim 609 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,960 to see if they were naked with only their socks on, 610 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,239 because he just said that is what he did to 611 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:24,079 all his victims. And yet nobody thought of that. There 612 00:36:24,079 --> 00:36:28,079 was only one with no only socks on, and it 613 00:36:28,159 --> 00:36:31,800 wasn't his victim, but he was playing with them. He 614 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,480 had hooked into Oh that's a unique thing, and he 615 00:36:35,599 --> 00:36:38,159 threw it out there, but nobody went, wait a minute, 616 00:36:38,199 --> 00:36:41,639 my victim was fully clothed, or my victim didn't have 617 00:36:41,679 --> 00:36:45,000 socks on. You didn't see people doing that? Why not? 618 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 5: There's another really intriguing component of Henry Le Lucas's story, 619 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,519 and I think it was about episode three of the 620 00:36:55,559 --> 00:36:59,760 Confession Killer documentary. This is five episodes when this came up, 621 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,519 and that is Phyllis Wilcox. So, Frennie and I feel like, 622 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,199 for the record, Catherine, you would suggest that we could 623 00:37:06,199 --> 00:37:08,920 do a whole entire episode just on serial killer groupies. 624 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,400 And I think it's a great idea. But Phyllis Wilcox, 625 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,840 for anybody who doesn't know the background on her, she 626 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,519 assumed the identity of one of Lucas's victims, Becky Powell, 627 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,360 in an attempt to get him out of jail. We 628 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,119 learned later that she had also communicated with Charles Sminson 629 00:37:24,159 --> 00:37:27,400 and Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy. So what can 630 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,480 you tell us about the women who become serial killer groupies? 631 00:37:31,639 --> 00:37:33,239 For lack of a better term, I guess groupie is 632 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:33,559 the best thing. 633 00:37:33,639 --> 00:37:38,159 Speaker 6: Yeah, Because there's prison groupies and there are serial killer groupees. 634 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,480 They cross over a bit, but they are distinctly different. 635 00:37:42,159 --> 00:37:47,440 Often the women who get enamored of an inmate, whether 636 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,880 serial killer or not, I have often seen some aspect 637 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,960 of fame to it. They're on the news, they're being 638 00:37:55,039 --> 00:37:59,079 talked about, and they and they see them and for 639 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,400 some of them number of reasons, I can't put them 640 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,679 all among group but some of them see the little boy. 641 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,480 And it's also, by the way, not just women. There 642 00:38:07,519 --> 00:38:11,360 are males who also do this, So it's largely women, 643 00:38:11,639 --> 00:38:14,760 but it's not exclusively women. But they see the little 644 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,199 boy and they're hookers out and they think they can 645 00:38:17,199 --> 00:38:20,639 make a difference in that person's life. Sometimes they're religious 646 00:38:20,639 --> 00:38:24,880 and they want to save their souls. Sometimes it's they 647 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,320 want to have a boyfriend, and it's the best, the 648 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,719 best kind of boyfriend, because he's always thinking about them 649 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,400 because he's got nothing else to do, writing them letters 650 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,760 and whatnot. But he can't stop them from going out 651 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,519 if they want to go out, and they don't have 652 00:38:39,559 --> 00:38:41,800 to do any laundry or dishes. Are cooking for you. 653 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,840 In a way, there's an upside to that kind of relationship. 654 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,760 For some women, sometimes they've been abused and they see 655 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,519 they're at home with this person they or they feel 656 00:38:53,519 --> 00:38:56,519 that he's the alpha male. He can kill others, and 657 00:38:56,559 --> 00:38:59,039 so he would protect me. So there's a number of 658 00:38:59,079 --> 00:39:02,920 different really have to look at each case, And in 659 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:08,039 her case, she took it more farther than most. She 660 00:39:08,079 --> 00:39:12,079 studied up on a book about Lucas and learned everything 661 00:39:12,119 --> 00:39:16,920 she could about Becky. She was clearly not Becky, but 662 00:39:17,079 --> 00:39:19,400 she learned everything she could about her, so that when 663 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,360 people questioned her, she had all the answers. Plus Henry 664 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,800 was given her more. He was telling her things in 665 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,519 part because Becky had, according to him, been the love 666 00:39:29,559 --> 00:39:31,559 of his life, even though she's only ten years old 667 00:39:31,599 --> 00:39:35,039 when he met her, fifteen when he killed her. That 668 00:39:35,199 --> 00:39:37,079 was the love of his life. And so he would 669 00:39:37,119 --> 00:39:42,239 cry over the idea that maybe Becky is coming back 670 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,159 to him in some form, and so he would feed 671 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,840 her all kinds of information and details, and finally they 672 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,119 outed her because she had all the letters. But originally 673 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,239 she was able to fool people because she knew the 674 00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,239 answers to their questions about where Becky lived, what was 675 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,440 her actual name, and how did she get along with people, 676 00:40:04,559 --> 00:40:07,000 and so all the things that they were asking her, 677 00:40:07,039 --> 00:40:09,719 she'd memorized, so it was very easy for her to 678 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,800 pass herself as Becky. And she was in love with Henry, 679 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,880 even though she had her own husband, who she said 680 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,719 was okay with this, and that does happen too, by 681 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,440 the way, because she's not the only one I've heard 682 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:27,000 about with So she wanted to show that Becky was 683 00:40:27,039 --> 00:40:31,519 alive and that Henry was unjustly imprisoned for that death. 684 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,760 Says she's got Kate Rich to contend with another woman. 685 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,559 Henry was tied to her murders as she's clearly delusional, 686 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,119 but she was getting away with it. And it's a 687 00:40:42,199 --> 00:40:46,480 very interesting story of the devotion of some of these 688 00:40:46,519 --> 00:40:51,440 women to these inmates who and they believe somehow they're 689 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,559 going to get them out. Now he had a death penalty. 690 00:40:54,599 --> 00:40:56,440 I think he still had the death penalty hanging over 691 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,320 his head, so she was trying to save his life. 692 00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:01,159 Speaker 3: I just find it so bizarre. 693 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,800 Speaker 5: He did not seem in the videos that I watched 694 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,280 of him, He did not seem all that charismatic. 695 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:10,159 Speaker 3: He did not seem charming. 696 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 5: He's certainly not a Ted Bundy, who we know that 697 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,000 was all surface shine anyway, there was a monster underneath. 698 00:41:17,119 --> 00:41:20,360 I just don't I don't understand how this happens. 699 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 6: He had a fiance when the year he killed his 700 00:41:24,519 --> 00:41:28,639 mother in nineteen sixty, even with his false eye and 701 00:41:28,679 --> 00:41:32,679 a prison sentence behind him. What can you say? Love 702 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:34,079 is blind? Right? 703 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just sitting here shaking my head, like this 704 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,159 stuff makes no sense to me. 705 00:41:44,079 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 6: Look at the Menendez brothers and how many women have 706 00:41:47,119 --> 00:41:48,159 been involved with them. 707 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:53,280 Speaker 2: Oh, they've been married several times. This is nuts. I 708 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,320 was thinking about the Menanda's brothers. 709 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 6: And I think you're going to find any one who's 710 00:42:00,519 --> 00:42:06,880 got a degree of fame for nefarious crime will attract 711 00:42:07,639 --> 00:42:12,800 these women. And some are highly educated. One woman was 712 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,920 a model, when was a philosophy PhD. It's not like 713 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:22,280 there's stupidity here. It's something is going on with the 714 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,039 person who wants to do this, and it's the dynamic 715 00:42:26,159 --> 00:42:30,800 of their background that somehow is getting something back, some 716 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,320 reward back from getting involved like this. 717 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 5: So the lessons we learned from Henry Lucas, of course, 718 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,440 is that you have to be very careful about believing 719 00:42:40,559 --> 00:42:43,679 somebody who is offering up tons and tons of confessions. 720 00:42:44,199 --> 00:42:48,199 What kind of training does law enforcement have now that 721 00:42:48,559 --> 00:42:50,920 keeps them from falling into the trap of this guy's 722 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:51,920 confessing endlesslie. 723 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:53,039 Speaker 3: And I believe him. 724 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:58,199 Speaker 6: There's great training, but the department has to pay for it, 725 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,400 so I go around and do a lot of trainings. 726 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,960 I don't train them in interrogations, but I know people 727 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,920 who do who are really expert at it, including I 728 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,400 remember an FBI agent who was absolutely certainly there was 729 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:13,400 no such thing as a false confession, and he was 730 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,000 an interrogation specialist, and then he got one that really 731 00:43:17,119 --> 00:43:20,800 changed his training. His name as Jim's Jim train him, 732 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:22,679 I think his name. He's got a book about that. 733 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,079 He got a false confession despite all his training, and 734 00:43:27,199 --> 00:43:31,440 he realized the assumptions that went into his work, that 735 00:43:31,519 --> 00:43:35,400 we had led him into this error. And I think 736 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,440 you can see with the Rangers, they have this the 737 00:43:38,599 --> 00:43:42,960 notion of the integrity and they couldn't be wrong, and 738 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,159 nobody's going to falsely confess to get a steak dinner, 739 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:51,239 and the ego that's involved clearly that they're not seeing. 740 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,599 If there was one case in the Confession Killer where 741 00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:00,199 Lucas actually says that there were two kids and the 742 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,559 male was up here and he says, fifty five miles 743 00:44:02,599 --> 00:44:06,760 down the road? Was it female? Like? What? What did 744 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:08,119 he drive? 745 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:10,880 Speaker 7: And keepometer? 746 00:44:12,159 --> 00:44:15,119 Speaker 6: It was fifty six miles And he could only have 747 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,559 known that because Boutwell told. 748 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:18,920 Speaker 7: Him that it was in the file. 749 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:23,639 Speaker 6: Right, It is them denying, and yet you watch them 750 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,400 hand over the case file and the show the crime 751 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,599 scenes and the maps and all the stuff. He needs 752 00:44:29,639 --> 00:44:32,119 to be able to say these things so that they 753 00:44:32,159 --> 00:44:36,000 have a tunnel vision about what they're actually doing. And 754 00:44:36,039 --> 00:44:38,320 then when you ask them did you do this? They 755 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,760 can say no, of course not. And it is a 756 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:46,000 blindness that comes from a certain belief system. They're not 757 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:51,039 nuts or stupid, they just don't believe they've done anything wrong. 758 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:53,880 And you can show them the video and they still 759 00:44:54,079 --> 00:44:59,400 nope't do that. So it's a very instructive documentary, I think. 760 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,519 But back your question, there is a lot of good training, 761 00:45:03,039 --> 00:45:07,159 and it requires that the departments have the resource to 762 00:45:07,199 --> 00:45:09,440 be able to send their officers to this training. Now, 763 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,480 some of us, like in Pennsylvania, I do it just 764 00:45:12,599 --> 00:45:15,320 for the state troopers for free, and you will find 765 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:19,559 that but that's pretty rare because hardly anybody has the 766 00:45:19,639 --> 00:45:22,000 time to just be able to go train for free. 767 00:45:22,119 --> 00:45:24,760 You have to have some kind of compensation, so you 768 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,800 have to have resources in the department, and typically they're 769 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,559 going to if it's a small department, they're going to 770 00:45:31,559 --> 00:45:34,800 bring in a specialist and they can and the FBI 771 00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,880 will offer that for free. So that's great. And the 772 00:45:38,039 --> 00:45:42,519 FBI now they realize all the duping that can go on. 773 00:45:42,639 --> 00:45:46,840 They understand the notion of duping delight and of the 774 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,280 seeking fame and all the things that go into false confessions. 775 00:45:50,559 --> 00:45:52,800 They're up on the research. There's a lot of it, 776 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,599 and I think that I think we're a long ways 777 00:45:56,639 --> 00:45:58,480 away from where we were forty years. 778 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,000 Speaker 2: Ago, so that I question some lessons have been learned 779 00:46:02,159 --> 00:46:06,360 from some of these most egregious cases. Yes, we're at 780 00:46:06,519 --> 00:46:09,679 forty nine minutes, so we have to steer to a close. 781 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:14,519 Speaker 5: All right, Catherine, this has been eliminating as always. Is 782 00:46:14,559 --> 00:46:16,800 there any projects you're working on that you'd like to 783 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,119 plug for us before we wrap for this episode. 784 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:24,400 Speaker 6: At the novels series, I think because every one there's 785 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,599 for it of the novels and everyone is based on 786 00:46:26,679 --> 00:46:30,639 actual cases and actual methodologies, and the person who's my 787 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,639 main character is a forensic psychologist who runs a PI agency, 788 00:46:35,199 --> 00:46:37,159 and a lot of the cases are based on things 789 00:46:37,199 --> 00:46:41,559 that I've worked on or done, so that's part of it. 790 00:46:41,679 --> 00:46:45,440 And I'm working on a memoir. When it will ever 791 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,679 come out, I don't know, but it's involved all the 792 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,960 encounters I've had, the unusual encounters I've had, my in 793 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,159 the criminal justice world that I am in. 794 00:46:57,639 --> 00:46:59,719 Speaker 3: We are looking forward to that. Hopefully it will come 795 00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:00,920 out at some point or another. 796 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:03,039 Speaker 6: I hope so too. 797 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,440 Speaker 5: And again, remind everybody the name of your most recent 798 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:08,760 books so that they can pick it up. 799 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,480 Speaker 6: The most recent book that's coming out in August is 800 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:16,519 You Can't Hide, and the one before that was called 801 00:47:16,559 --> 00:47:17,280 Dead Handed. 802 00:47:18,199 --> 00:47:21,760 Speaker 5: Thanks all right, Catherine, Thank you so much for joining us. 803 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,480 We really appreciate you taking the time to offer your expertise. 804 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:25,599 Speaker 6: I had fun. 805 00:47:25,639 --> 00:47:27,280 Speaker 5: Thank you That is going to do it for this 806 00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,840 episode of Minded for Murder. Thank you so much for listening. 807 00:47:30,159 --> 00:47:31,159 Speaker 3: We'll see you next time. 808 00:47:40,679 --> 00:47:44,239 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 809 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:45,760 Another Dog Productions. 810 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,639 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 811 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,400 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 812 00:47:53,039 --> 00:47:55,079 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 813 00:47:55,639 --> 00:47:59,559 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 814 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 815 00:48:03,679 --> 00:48:06,280 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 816 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,159 Murders on Facebook. 817 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 818 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:12,639 Bill Thomas. Five six. 819 00:48:13,119 --> 00:48:16,039 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.