WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:04.120 Hello, Federalist Radio Hour friends. It's your amiable host and 2 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:08.119 experience Shirpa Matt Kittle. You know I have the good 3 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:11.160 fortune of talking to some of the most interesting people 4 00:00:11.480 --> 00:00:15.960 thought leaders in politics and culture. Today there's shining light 5 00:00:16.039 --> 00:00:19.199 on some very dark places in our government and fighting 6 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:23.839 for the foundational values of this republic, this last best 7 00:00:23.879 --> 00:00:27.600 hope for liberty, and that's what we do every day 8 00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:32.200 at the Federalist. We can't do that without you. The 9 00:00:32.200 --> 00:00:36.119 Federalist Foundation is a nonprofit and we depend entirely on 10 00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:40.960 our listeners and readers, not corporations. 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I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at 17 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:28.239 the Federalist and your experienced Shrpa on today's quest for knowledge. 18 00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:31.519 As always, you can email the show at radio at 19 00:01:31.560 --> 00:01:35.719 the Federalist dot com follow us on exit FDR LST. 20 00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:39.120 Make sure to subscribe reever you download your podcast, and 21 00:01:39.280 --> 00:01:43.079 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 22 00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:48.920 Our guest today is Kenneth Calvert, Professor of History and 23 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.760 director of the Oxford Program at Hillsdale College. In this 24 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:57.879 blessed season, let us pause to reflect on the miraculous 25 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:03.680 birth and times of course and the first Christians, and 26 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:07.079 Professor Calvert is here to help us do just that. 27 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:09.599 Thank you so much for joining us on this edition 28 00:02:09.639 --> 00:02:10.759 of the Federalist Radio Hour. 29 00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:12.639 You're welcome, Matt, thanks for having me. 30 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:17.120 Let's begin really at the beginning, shall we, Actually it 31 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:20.719 goes back a ways, but you'll understand where I'm coming 32 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:27.319 from when I read the book of Luke two eight 33 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:31.000 through twenty, and it is this. There were in the 34 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:34.759 same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over 35 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:37.879 their flock by night, and lo, the Angel of the 36 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:40.520 Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord 37 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:46.039 shown round about them, and they were sore afraid. Thus 38 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:53.240 begins Luke chapter two eight through twenty. It was a 39 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:57.080 at least the start of this sequence is a bit 40 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:01.800 unnerving for the shepherd's watching over their flocks, was it not. 41 00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:08.000 That's right, it was, And the shepherds are being addressed 42 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:12.800 by angels, and of course in that moment, the idea 43 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:18.280 that they're frightened is entirely understandable. But they're being invited 44 00:03:18.360 --> 00:03:22.360 to the most important event in human history, the birth 45 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:26.439 of God Incarnate in Bethlehem and the night of the 46 00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:29.159 Night of his birth. Of course it was just angels 47 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:32.159 and shepherds. The magi I wouldn't show up for another 48 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:36.360 two years, and so we have to remember that. And 49 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:42.439 what's wonderful about Luke is just the simplicity, straightforward nature 50 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:46.919 of the na of the message. And if I may, 51 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:51.319 I'd like to actually start with the time of Zechariah, 52 00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:54.439 the husband of Elizabeth. 53 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:56.159 Certainly, yes, yeah, yeah. 54 00:03:56.199 --> 00:03:59.520 So we go back to Zechariah and we look at 55 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:04.719 the announcement that he receives. He's a priest serving in 56 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:08.319 the temple. We're not quite sure what event it is, 57 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:11.240 but it could very well be if this is if 58 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:15.840 this is somewhere around six or seven BC, we're looking 59 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:19.360 at either the day of the Atonement or the Feast 60 00:04:19.399 --> 00:04:23.680 of the Tabernacles, and he is he is serving in 61 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:27.959 the temple, and he is told by the Angel that 62 00:04:28.040 --> 00:04:29.639 he was going to have a child, that he and 63 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:32.240 Elizabeth would have a child, and of course he didn't 64 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:37.120 believe it, and he was struck dumb as compared to Mary, 65 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:42.560 who was visited by Gabriel, and she accepts it and 66 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:45.600 she says, yes, I am the handmaid of the Lord right, 67 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:50.399 And so you have this contrast between these the two 68 00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:54.800 receptions of this message. But we are told then Mary 69 00:04:55.959 --> 00:04:59.800 is told to go visit her relative Elizabeth, and we're 70 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:03.480 not quite sure how they're related, but they are related, 71 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:06.399 and she's to go visit her, and she's already six 72 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:10.920 months pregnant. So if we look at Zachariah at the 73 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:15.120 temple in somewhere around six b C, which is about 74 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:19.120 the time when Jesus was born, and we look at 75 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:23.839 when he was there sometime in September, this means that 76 00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:29.120 the incarnation of God, the visitation of Gabriel to Mary, 77 00:05:29.639 --> 00:05:33.399 took place sometime in March. And then of course what's 78 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:37.839 nine months from March, well, December, and so when we 79 00:05:37.879 --> 00:05:41.639 talk about the celebration of this most important event in 80 00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:47.000 human history, the arrival of God incarnate, and we're talking 81 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:52.800 about December twenty fifth, as about the approximate correct date 82 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:55.800 of his birth, and we look at scripture and we 83 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:59.360 look at the foundations of it, we're not far off. 84 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:02.439 And I think that it's very important for us to understand. 85 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:07.240 Quite often we hear that it was Constantine who somehow 86 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:10.959 established December twenty fifth as the date of Christmas, which 87 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:14.279 there is absolutely no historical evidence for that at all, 88 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:16.360 and that always befuddles me a little bit as an 89 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:19.920 ancient historian, and especially one who studies the early Church, 90 00:06:20.920 --> 00:06:24.879 because by the second and third centuries AD, you have 91 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:30.199 a number of these early Christian scholars, early Christian leaders, 92 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:35.680 identifying specifically March twenty fifth as the date of the incarnation. 93 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:39.040 And that's what they're most interested in, of course, is 94 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:44.519 the very moment when God becomes man. And this is 95 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:47.759 why in early Christianity and all down through Christian history 96 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:53.480 we've believed and assert and of course science shows that 97 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:57.800 human life begins at conception, and there when we talk 98 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:02.800 about God incarnate conception, that's what the early Christians held 99 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:06.199 on to. You look at people like Hippolitists or Tertullian, 100 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:10.639 Clement of Alexandria. A number of these early Christian scholars 101 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:14.560 are looking at March twenty fifth as the date of 102 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:19.399 the conception of God Incarnate, and then of course December 103 00:07:19.399 --> 00:07:22.839 twenty fifth, nine months later, as the date of his 104 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:30.199 amazing birth and the announcement to those shepherds who Matthew 105 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:36.920 and Luke give this wonderful contrast, matt between the God 106 00:07:37.279 --> 00:07:42.480 of the universe, the true King of the Universe, being 107 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:47.800 born in Bethlehem, right, and this baby, this baby who 108 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:50.800 is not only the second member of the Trinity, but 109 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:56.079 you know, now here in flesh, as compared to the 110 00:07:56.120 --> 00:08:01.519 guy further down the Mediterranean Sea in Rome, Caesar Augustus, 111 00:08:02.360 --> 00:08:04.920 who is proclaimed by his people to be a god, 112 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:08.959 to be a son of a god, of Julius Caesar. 113 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:12.879 And the amazing contrast there of the human view of power, 114 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:16.560 the human view of authority, as compared to the true 115 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:19.040 authority in that baby in Bethlehem. 116 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:20.240 It's just so. 117 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:25.160 Powerful, and any Christian reading that in the first century, 118 00:08:25.720 --> 00:08:31.720 first century AD would understand that contrast. And indeed one 119 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:35.080 of the reasons why Herod sent his troops to kill 120 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:39.000 babies at Bethlehem was to try and get rid of 121 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:42.399 this king of the Jews who had arrived because the 122 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:45.559 Senate had made him quote unquote the king of the Jews. 123 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:48.840 And so there again a contrast in the real power 124 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:53.960 versus the human claims to authority. It is a very 125 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:57.039 very powerful message, and sometimes here, you know, twenty one, 126 00:08:57.559 --> 00:09:03.399 one hundred years later, almost forget just how powerful that 127 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:05.480 message was in the first century. 128 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:07.120 Oh, it is so powerful. 129 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:13.960 And you mentioned, you know, the two very interesting narratives 130 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:17.279 that are the same, but they're told with you know, 131 00:09:17.559 --> 00:09:20.679 you can tell that these are different people telling this 132 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:24.600 story in Luke and in Matthew, but it comes down 133 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:29.559 to the same message that it is a humbling experience. 134 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:38.080 It is, you know, filled with humanness, but filled with 135 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:40.960 divinity at the same time. And I think I always 136 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:44.799 think about that silent night, and every time I hear that, 137 00:09:44.919 --> 00:09:49.200 I I feel those words that you know, the Gospel 138 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:55.159 describing this scene, because indeed, a I'm sure that around 139 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:00.919 everyone you know, was you know, perhaps some noise and 140 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:04.240 maybe some cacophony in the background, right, but you know, 141 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:08.759 in this in this setting, in this manger, this was 142 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:14.679 as they say in German, you know, well the translation 143 00:10:14.840 --> 00:10:19.639 is still still still right. It's a calm in this moment. 144 00:10:19.879 --> 00:10:25.840 Yeah, yeah, and this is the God of the universe. Well, 145 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:28.480 let's put it this way. All of the Old Testament 146 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:31.320 points ahead to this, and then all of the rest 147 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:35.639 of history is defined by this moment, by this still moment, 148 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:41.639 in this in this, in this manger where one, you know, 149 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:46.519 just from from human eyes, one would never expect the 150 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:50.200 God of the universe to arrive, right it is. It 151 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:55.440 is so contrary to everything that we think is powerful 152 00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:56.840 and important. 153 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:01.480 Absolutely, and we think about well here, as you mentioned before, 154 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:07.240 these assumptions of divinity in these very flawed, very flawed 155 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:12.879 human beings. Well it wasn't you know, it was at 156 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:17.679 this moment where you have the crossroads of this history 157 00:11:17.799 --> 00:11:23.480 going on. You talked about Elizabeth and who was Elizabeth's son? 158 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:25.840 They you know, And it's. 159 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:29.000 Always interesting to me because the you know, the Old 160 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:33.799 Testament is filled with God fulfilling his promises, especially around 161 00:11:34.440 --> 00:11:39.519 older people, right right, run out of time, the biological clock. 162 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:43.039 And it's always interesting to me that you have two 163 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:46.559 people in this particular instance saying there's no way that 164 00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:49.440 could have we're too old to have children. Right exactly, 165 00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:51.799 here comes John the Baptist right right. 166 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:58.200 And you know, Sarah Abraham look at Samuel's mother Samson's mother. 167 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:01.600 You know, there are these miraculous births all down through 168 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:05.000 the Old Testament, and then of course in Isaiah the 169 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:09.360 promise that the virgin will be birth, be giving birth 170 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:12.240 to God with us right in Manuel Manuel. 171 00:12:12.440 --> 00:12:16.000 And here is the fulfillment of all of that. 172 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:22.600 And God takes on flesh, and by doing that, you know, 173 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:26.399 he sets up the whole salvation history, the whole drama 174 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:31.720 pointing ahead to his taking on flesh. Therefore able to 175 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:36.759 die and dies you atoning for our sin. And then 176 00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:39.240 is able also in the flesh to rise from the 177 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:41.759 dead and have victory over death. 178 00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:44.279 And if I can go back for a moment, because 179 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:47.200 you talked about the chronology of this, and I think 180 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:49.639 that is a critical point, I want to focus on 181 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:53.039 this a bit because we have heard from some modern 182 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:57.200 day historians. Oh no, no, Christ was not born on 183 00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:01.159 December twenty fifth. You know, this was just the emerging 184 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:05.559 of some you know, pagan winter solstice festivals with as 185 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:09.600 you mentioned before, the Roman calendar tying this stuff in. 186 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:14.720 Where did they come up with this stuff? Because we 187 00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:19.080 have in the early Christian historians, as you mentioned from 188 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:24.240 the beginning, talked about the moment of that immaculate conception, 189 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:28.320 and that Immaculate Conception being in March, which would take 190 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:32.919 the Mary's all women's gestation period up to you know 191 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:33.960 the end of December. 192 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:34.840 Right. 193 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:37.559 Well, you know, there's there's all kinds of things that 194 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:42.159 might be pointed to. Probably they're the strongest evidence for 195 00:13:42.279 --> 00:13:47.279 a Constantinian era establishment of December twenty fifth is a 196 00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:51.799 calendar that it's actually not in Constantinople, where Constantine is 197 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:55.399 ruling from, but in Rome. And what it does show 198 00:13:55.480 --> 00:14:00.480 is that Christmas was being celebrated alongside the celebration of 199 00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:05.159 a god, Soul Invictus, and I believe also the Saturnalia. 200 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:08.480 Now that doesn't mean that they were all established at 201 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:11.120 that moment and that they were all seen as equal, 202 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:14.279 and that is important. It's just a calendar that lists 203 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:16.639 what's going on at that moment, right. 204 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:19.720 So what we have to look at actually is. 205 00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:24.679 An emperor named Aurelian who ruled from two seventy to 206 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:31.399 two seventy five. And Aurelian actually introduced a god that 207 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:33.960 had been debated over by the Romans for a while 208 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:38.639 named Soul Invictus, which is the invincible Sun. So that 209 00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:43.200 solar worship and what he does is established December twenty fifth, 210 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:48.279 the winter solstice, as the moment or the day in 211 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:52.440 which that God is worshiped. And so you know, there 212 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:54.759 are a number of things going on here, because there's 213 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:57.399 persecution of the Christians going on at the same time 214 00:14:58.039 --> 00:15:04.559 under Aurelian, Christianity is growing leaps and bounds in this period. 215 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:09.039 And so what you might look at her a couple 216 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:12.000 of things. Number one, is he trying to cover up 217 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:16.360 Christianity by establishing a new solar worship or is he 218 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.600 trying to maybe co ot Christianity and bring Christianity into 219 00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:25.279 the Empire, which is a possibility but unlikely. Or is 220 00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:28.279 he just establishing a new God. You know, those are 221 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:32.879 our options. But what is often confusing to those who 222 00:15:32.919 --> 00:15:35.600 look back at this time is that it is a 223 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:40.480 December twenty fifth celebration and therefore seems to be, you know, 224 00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:46.559 coordinated somehow with the Christian celebration. What I think is 225 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:50.639 also important is that the Christians had a certain amount 226 00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:55.320 of solar imagery attached to Christ. In the Book of Numbers, 227 00:15:56.279 --> 00:16:01.080 the Messiah is called a star. In I believe it's Malachi, 228 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:05.759 he is called the sun. The s u n of righteousness. 229 00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:08.399 And then in the Gospel of John, you know, the 230 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:12.799 light comes into the world, you know, the darkness, you know, 231 00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:15.519 you know fhades because of the light coming into the world. 232 00:16:16.039 --> 00:16:19.799 There is this light imagery and even solar imagery that 233 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:23.120 the Christians do discuss and talk about, and ultimately it 234 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:26.440 will work its way into their art. But that doesn't 235 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:30.519 mean it's the same as the pagan idea of soul 236 00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:32.600 and Victus or the invincible sun. 237 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:33.200 You see. 238 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:36.120 And one thing I always, you know, scratch my head 239 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:37.960 about is, you know, people who are saying that this 240 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:41.039 is the same thing, that they're all intertwining and this 241 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:44.480 is proof of you know, pagan roots of Christianity. I 242 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:47.200 think that's really hard to argue because remember that the 243 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:51.559 Christians are being persecuted. Yes, why would the Christians want to, 244 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:56.159 you know, intertwine themselves with paganism. In fact, if I 245 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:57.879 can just say one more thing about, you know, the 246 00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:02.000 celebration of Christmas by the early Christian early Christians. In fact, 247 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:06.440 there's a wonderful hymn of the Father's Love Forgotten written 248 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:11.240 by Prudentius. That's our earliest known Christian hymn in the 249 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:14.880 fourth century, and I've heard that song in every Christian church. 250 00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:18.559 It's just a wonderful hymn. And the Christians set themselves 251 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:23.039 aside in terms of their celebration of Christmas as compared 252 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:26.359 to the celebration of Soul and Victis or the celebration 253 00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:32.039 of the Saturnalia. The Christians, Jerome of Jerusalem says this. 254 00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:38.400 He says, they have debauchery, they have corruption. They drink 255 00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:42.119 too much wine, you know, they drink too much, they 256 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:46.839 eat too much food. It is just absolute corruption. Whereas 257 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:50.519 we Christians and the celebration of Christ at this time 258 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:54.200 of the year, we're giving to the poor, We're remembering 259 00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:58.200 Christ and why he came, you know, we're remembering the 260 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:01.920 reason for the incarnation. You know, it's such a drastic 261 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:07.279 contrast to that pagan celebration. And so the Christians were, 262 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:10.680 i would argue, very much aware that what they were 263 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:13.279 doing was different, even though it was around the same 264 00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:14.000 time of year. 265 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:18.440 Yeah, it is really played out in the notion of 266 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:23.160 walk in the spirit and not in the flesh. Absolutely 267 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:29.359 only one human being, flesh born human being, who was 268 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:33.119 ever perfect. The spirit is always perfect, and the spirit 269 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:36.160 lived of course in Christ. 270 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:37.440 God incarnate. 271 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:43.359 But you know that is what Paul and others urged, 272 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:47.680 so exactly you walk in that spirit, and that must 273 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:52.039 have been well, to say the least, quite a challenge 274 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:55.720 in those early days when they weren't walking. A lot 275 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:58.720 of times in some places they were running from villages 276 00:18:58.759 --> 00:19:02.319 where they were being throwing rocks at them and trying 277 00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:03.319 to take their lives. 278 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:09.440 And again in the two fifties AD, just before Aurelian 279 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:13.599 there was empire wide persecution of the Christians. They were 280 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:16.640 being dragged out into the streets and it was. 281 00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:19.039 Really a horrible time. 282 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:21.799 And so you know, I think that we have to 283 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:25.359 recall that the Christians are going to separate themselves, distance 284 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:30.039 themselves from their persecutors. Now, one thing I also have 285 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:33.119 to add is whereas March twenty fifth, the date of 286 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:38.480 the conception of God Incarnate, is the date that they 287 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:41.240 look to most reverently. 288 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:43.200 The other, of course, is. 289 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:48.720 Easter, and they set that date very early and have 290 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:52.160 a couple of councils in which they want to establish 291 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:56.319 the date of the celebration of Easter. There are some 292 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:00.079 differences between the West and the East, but mostly based 293 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:02.400 upon the fact that we're using different calendars. 294 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:05.279 But it's really the same day, and. 295 00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:08.640 And it is it is that that moment of his 296 00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:14.440 atonement and resurrection that the Christians very early on viewed 297 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:18.519 as the most important. The celebration of Christmas and of 298 00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:26.279 the Incarnation really was a secondary celebration. But I think 299 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:28.559 it is important for us to understand that as we 300 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:33.480 celebrate it, we do celebrate it in communion with our 301 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:37.000 early brothers and sisters in Christ, and that this is 302 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:40.160 not something to be taken as just made up by 303 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:44.559 the Emperor Constantine and some some group of group of people. 304 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:47.240 I'm not sure even who would you know who would 305 00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:50.319 put that together and say therefore it's a pagan celebration. 306 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:52.319 That's just that's just not correct. 307 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:58.160 Now, sir, are you telling us that this event that 308 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:00.720 we celebrate every year as Christians, we it's so dear, 309 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:05.839 is not about you know, your your prime membership. It's 310 00:21:05.880 --> 00:21:08.480 not about heading to the mall and buying up as 311 00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:12.480 much of the latest stuff as you can for the 312 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:15.839 kids or whoever it's it's it's not about that. 313 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:18.519 It's believe it or not, it's not. 314 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.359 Although I have to say that if we if we 315 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:26.839 truly associate all of that with God's gifts to us 316 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:30.079 and God's grace towards us. If that's if that's really 317 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:33.599 the meaning that we understand for all of this in context, 318 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:36.759 then I think we're heading in the right direction, right, Yeah. 319 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:37.799 I think that we. 320 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:39.759 I don't want to be I don't want to be 321 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:43.599 too curmudgeonally right, but it is it is important for 322 00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:47.480 us in the end to focus on why this all happened. 323 00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:50.640 In fact, I was asked the other day what I 324 00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:54.319 thought that the most important symbol for Christmas might be, 325 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:57.759 And of course I think the crash the Nativity scene 326 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:01.160 is very important. But I think too that Christians should 327 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:05.079 display across in my tradition as a Catholic, of course, 328 00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:09.200 a crucifix, so that we remember what Paul says, I 329 00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:13.079 boasted nothing but Christ and him crucified. That this is 330 00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:17.720 really at the core the true meaning of Christmas, That 331 00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:20.000 this is what it all points ahead to, and that 332 00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:22.720 is the real gift right that has been given to 333 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:27.079 us and the real gift that we proclaim to the 334 00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:28.559 world at this time of year. 335 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:35.119 Fed chair j Pal seems like he's straight out of 336 00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:38.119 reservoir dogs stuck in the middle. The watched Out on 337 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:41.279 Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day, Chris helps 338 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:43.960 unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how 339 00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:46.559 it affects your wallet. With inflation on one side and 340 00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:50.079 unemployment on the other. J Pal's acting clueless with a 341 00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:53.039 dual mandate coming in from both sides. There's not much 342 00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:55.240 else he can do. Whether it's happening in DC or 343 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:57.200 down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. 344 00:22:57.279 --> 00:22:57.799 Be informed. 345 00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:00.000 Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris 346 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:02.960 Rkowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. 347 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:09.519 And so many gifts. I never want to lose track 348 00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:13.000 of that. You know. The gift obviously is our Lord 349 00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:13.759 and our Savior. 350 00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:15.079 That's appradiable. 351 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:18.480 But I think about all of the miracles then took 352 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:23.839 place in order for this birth to be, in order 353 00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:29.759 for this child to survive a very dangerous time, that 354 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:34.279 this child would grow up to do such miraculous works, 355 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:38.240 if you would, I mean, I'm not asking you to 356 00:23:38.279 --> 00:23:42.160 count the miracles, but to talk about the miracles surrounding 357 00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:43.079 this faith. 358 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:43.759 Right. 359 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:47.160 So, one thing that always jumps out at me, and 360 00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:49.519 of course I'm a historian and I think about these things. 361 00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:54.680 The empire has been established by Caesar Augustus at this time, 362 00:23:55.400 --> 00:23:58.880 and there's a border, a border that stretches between Egypt 363 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:04.720 and the territory overseen by Herod. And of course the 364 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:08.960 Holy Family going down to Egypt is a fulfillment of scripture. 365 00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:12.519 They need to go down to Egypt because the Lord 366 00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:15.960 would call his son out of Egypt. Right, this is 367 00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:20.799 this is important. But what I find amazing is that 368 00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:25.640 Egypt is the is the closest place, the nearest part 369 00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:29.160 of the Empire to which the Holy Family might go 370 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:33.920 for safety and be outside the jurisdiction of Herod. And 371 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:36.960 so by going from Bethlehem down to Egypt, and we 372 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:39.680 don't know what part of Egypt they were in, they 373 00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:42.119 had just been given gold, frank and sense and murder 374 00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:45.880 by the by the magi. But the fact that they're 375 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:51.000 called down to there is in my mind a beautiful 376 00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:55.119 confirmation of so many things of prophecy, of gods, of 377 00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:59.319 God's providence, of God looking you know, the Joseph being 378 00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:02.640 faithful to his calling as a father, as an earthly father, 379 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:08.160 and Herod can't touch them there, and so you know, 380 00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:11.640 Matthew tells us that after Herod dies, then the Holy 381 00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:15.400 Family comes back and goes up to Nazareth. Again it 382 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:21.440 is it's perfect in the way that all unfolds his 383 00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:26.200 his his real Uh. Ministry and miracles don't begin till 384 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:30.000 the wedding of Cana in which he you know, produces 385 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:34.000 the wine for that wedding. And then his public miracles begin, 386 00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:38.880 and all of them focused on what on, on healing, 387 00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:44.119 on health, on on not only spiritual healing, but but 388 00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:48.000 excuse me, not only physical healing, but spiritual healing as 389 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:53.039 well of driving out those demons and those those things 390 00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:58.759 that possess us. It is it's beautiful and Uh, just 391 00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:04.920 three years of preaching of miraculous healing, he shows his 392 00:26:05.720 --> 00:26:10.160 control over nature. John in the Gospel of John, were 393 00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:13.680 told that he was there. He was present at creation. 394 00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:18.559 Right this again, this is that baby. That baby was 395 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:23.759 present at creation and as an adult Jesus president, he 396 00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:26.000 had been president at creation. He walks on the water, 397 00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:30.319 he calms the waves, and his disciples are just in 398 00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:35.640 awe and sometimes in fear of what this person is 399 00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:38.440 able to do and what he represents. 400 00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:42.400 Do you ever think to yourself, I have done this. 401 00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:46.079