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Speaker 1: Hello, Federalist Radio Hour friends. It's your amiable host and

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experience Shirpa Matt Kittle. You know I have the good

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fortune of talking to some of the most interesting people

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thought leaders in politics and culture. Today there's shining light

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on some very dark places in our government and fighting

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for the foundational values of this republic, this last best

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hope for liberty, and that's what we do every day

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at the Federalist. We can't do that without you. The

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com backslash donate. Your support keeps us going. Merry Christmas

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in a blessed new Year from your friends at the

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Federalist and we are back with another edition of the

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Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at

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the Federalist and your experienced Shrpa on today's quest for knowledge.

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As always, you can email the show at radio at

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the Federalist dot com follow us on exit FDR LST.

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Make sure to subscribe reever you download your podcast, and

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of course to the premium version of our website as well.

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Our guest today is Kenneth Calvert, Professor of History and

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director of the Oxford Program at Hillsdale College. In this

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blessed season, let us pause to reflect on the miraculous

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birth and times of course and the first Christians, and

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Professor Calvert is here to help us do just that.

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Thank you so much for joining us on this edition

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of the Federalist Radio Hour.

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Speaker 2: You're welcome, Matt, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Let's begin really at the beginning, shall we, Actually it

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goes back a ways, but you'll understand where I'm coming

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from when I read the book of Luke two eight

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through twenty, and it is this. There were in the

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same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over

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their flock by night, and lo, the Angel of the

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Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord

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shown round about them, and they were sore afraid. Thus

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begins Luke chapter two eight through twenty. It was a

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at least the start of this sequence is a bit

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unnerving for the shepherd's watching over their flocks, was it not.

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Speaker 3: That's right, it was, And the shepherds are being addressed

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by angels, and of course in that moment, the idea

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that they're frightened is entirely understandable. But they're being invited

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to the most important event in human history, the birth

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of God Incarnate in Bethlehem and the night of the

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Night of his birth. Of course it was just angels

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and shepherds. The magi I wouldn't show up for another

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two years, and so we have to remember that. And

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what's wonderful about Luke is just the simplicity, straightforward nature

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of the na of the message. And if I may,

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I'd like to actually start with the time of Zechariah,

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the husband of Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Certainly, yes, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: So we go back to Zechariah and we look at

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the announcement that he receives. He's a priest serving in

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the temple. We're not quite sure what event it is,

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but it could very well be if this is if

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this is somewhere around six or seven BC, we're looking

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at either the day of the Atonement or the Feast

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of the Tabernacles, and he is he is serving in

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the temple, and he is told by the Angel that

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he was going to have a child, that he and

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Elizabeth would have a child, and of course he didn't

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believe it, and he was struck dumb as compared to Mary,

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who was visited by Gabriel, and she accepts it and

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she says, yes, I am the handmaid of the Lord right,

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And so you have this contrast between these the two

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receptions of this message. But we are told then Mary

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is told to go visit her relative Elizabeth, and we're

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not quite sure how they're related, but they are related,

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and she's to go visit her, and she's already six

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months pregnant. So if we look at Zachariah at the

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temple in somewhere around six b C, which is about

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the time when Jesus was born, and we look at

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when he was there sometime in September, this means that

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the incarnation of God, the visitation of Gabriel to Mary,

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took place sometime in March. And then of course what's

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nine months from March, well, December, and so when we

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talk about the celebration of this most important event in

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human history, the arrival of God incarnate, and we're talking

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about December twenty fifth, as about the approximate correct date

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of his birth, and we look at scripture and we

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look at the foundations of it, we're not far off.

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And I think that it's very important for us to understand.

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Quite often we hear that it was Constantine who somehow

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established December twenty fifth as the date of Christmas, which

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there is absolutely no historical evidence for that at all,

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and that always befuddles me a little bit as an

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ancient historian, and especially one who studies the early Church,

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because by the second and third centuries AD, you have

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a number of these early Christian scholars, early Christian leaders,

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identifying specifically March twenty fifth as the date of the incarnation.

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And that's what they're most interested in, of course, is

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the very moment when God becomes man. And this is

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why in early Christianity and all down through Christian history

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we've believed and assert and of course science shows that

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human life begins at conception, and there when we talk

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about God incarnate conception, that's what the early Christians held

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on to. You look at people like Hippolitists or Tertullian,

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Clement of Alexandria. A number of these early Christian scholars

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are looking at March twenty fifth as the date of

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the conception of God Incarnate, and then of course December

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twenty fifth, nine months later, as the date of his

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amazing birth and the announcement to those shepherds who Matthew

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and Luke give this wonderful contrast, matt between the God

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of the universe, the true King of the Universe, being

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born in Bethlehem, right, and this baby, this baby who

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is not only the second member of the Trinity, but

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you know, now here in flesh, as compared to the

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guy further down the Mediterranean Sea in Rome, Caesar Augustus,

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who is proclaimed by his people to be a god,

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to be a son of a god, of Julius Caesar.

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And the amazing contrast there of the human view of power,

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the human view of authority, as compared to the true

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authority in that baby in Bethlehem.

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Speaker 2: It's just so.

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Speaker 3: Powerful, and any Christian reading that in the first century,

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first century AD would understand that contrast. And indeed one

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of the reasons why Herod sent his troops to kill

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babies at Bethlehem was to try and get rid of

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this king of the Jews who had arrived because the

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Senate had made him quote unquote the king of the Jews.

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And so there again a contrast in the real power

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versus the human claims to authority. It is a very

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very powerful message, and sometimes here, you know, twenty one,

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one hundred years later, almost forget just how powerful that

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message was in the first century.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it is so powerful.

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Speaker 1: And you mentioned, you know, the two very interesting narratives

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that are the same, but they're told with you know,

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you can tell that these are different people telling this

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story in Luke and in Matthew, but it comes down

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to the same message that it is a humbling experience.

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It is, you know, filled with humanness, but filled with

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divinity at the same time. And I think I always

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think about that silent night, and every time I hear that,

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I I feel those words that you know, the Gospel

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describing this scene, because indeed, a I'm sure that around

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everyone you know, was you know, perhaps some noise and

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maybe some cacophony in the background, right, but you know,

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in this in this setting, in this manger, this was

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as they say in German, you know, well the translation

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is still still still right. It's a calm in this moment.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and this is the God of the universe. Well,

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let's put it this way. All of the Old Testament

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points ahead to this, and then all of the rest

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of history is defined by this moment, by this still moment,

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in this in this, in this manger where one, you know,

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just from from human eyes, one would never expect the

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God of the universe to arrive, right it is. It

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is so contrary to everything that we think is powerful

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and important.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and we think about well here, as you mentioned before,

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these assumptions of divinity in these very flawed, very flawed

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human beings. Well it wasn't you know, it was at

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this moment where you have the crossroads of this history

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going on. You talked about Elizabeth and who was Elizabeth's son?

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Speaker 2: They you know, And it's.

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Speaker 1: Always interesting to me because the you know, the Old

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Testament is filled with God fulfilling his promises, especially around

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older people, right right, run out of time, the biological clock.

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And it's always interesting to me that you have two

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people in this particular instance saying there's no way that

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could have we're too old to have children. Right exactly,

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here comes John the Baptist right right.

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Speaker 3: And you know, Sarah Abraham look at Samuel's mother Samson's mother.

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You know, there are these miraculous births all down through

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the Old Testament, and then of course in Isaiah the

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promise that the virgin will be birth, be giving birth

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to God with us right in Manuel Manuel.

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Speaker 2: And here is the fulfillment of all of that.

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Speaker 3: And God takes on flesh, and by doing that, you know,

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he sets up the whole salvation history, the whole drama

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pointing ahead to his taking on flesh. Therefore able to

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die and dies you atoning for our sin. And then

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is able also in the flesh to rise from the

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dead and have victory over death.

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Speaker 1: And if I can go back for a moment, because

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you talked about the chronology of this, and I think

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that is a critical point, I want to focus on

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this a bit because we have heard from some modern

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day historians. Oh no, no, Christ was not born on

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December twenty fifth. You know, this was just the emerging

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of some you know, pagan winter solstice festivals with as

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you mentioned before, the Roman calendar tying this stuff in.

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Where did they come up with this stuff? Because we

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have in the early Christian historians, as you mentioned from

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the beginning, talked about the moment of that immaculate conception,

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and that Immaculate Conception being in March, which would take

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the Mary's all women's gestation period up to you know

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the end of December.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, there's there's all kinds of things that

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might be pointed to. Probably they're the strongest evidence for

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a Constantinian era establishment of December twenty fifth is a

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calendar that it's actually not in Constantinople, where Constantine is

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ruling from, but in Rome. And what it does show

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is that Christmas was being celebrated alongside the celebration of

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a god, Soul Invictus, and I believe also the Saturnalia.

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Now that doesn't mean that they were all established at

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that moment and that they were all seen as equal,

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and that is important. It's just a calendar that lists

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what's going on at that moment, right.

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Speaker 2: So what we have to look at actually is.

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Speaker 3: An emperor named Aurelian who ruled from two seventy to

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two seventy five. And Aurelian actually introduced a god that

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had been debated over by the Romans for a while

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named Soul Invictus, which is the invincible Sun. So that

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solar worship and what he does is established December twenty fifth,

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the winter solstice, as the moment or the day in

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which that God is worshiped. And so you know, there

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are a number of things going on here, because there's

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persecution of the Christians going on at the same time

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under Aurelian, Christianity is growing leaps and bounds in this period.

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And so what you might look at her a couple

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of things. Number one, is he trying to cover up

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Christianity by establishing a new solar worship or is he

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trying to maybe co ot Christianity and bring Christianity into

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the Empire, which is a possibility but unlikely. Or is

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he just establishing a new God. You know, those are

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our options. But what is often confusing to those who

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look back at this time is that it is a

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December twenty fifth celebration and therefore seems to be, you know,

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coordinated somehow with the Christian celebration. What I think is

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also important is that the Christians had a certain amount

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of solar imagery attached to Christ. In the Book of Numbers,

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the Messiah is called a star. In I believe it's Malachi,

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he is called the sun. The s u n of righteousness.

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And then in the Gospel of John, you know, the

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light comes into the world, you know, the darkness, you know,

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you know fhades because of the light coming into the world.

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There is this light imagery and even solar imagery that

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the Christians do discuss and talk about, and ultimately it

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will work its way into their art. But that doesn't

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mean it's the same as the pagan idea of soul

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and Victus or the invincible sun.

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Speaker 2: You see.

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Speaker 3: And one thing I always, you know, scratch my head

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about is, you know, people who are saying that this

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is the same thing, that they're all intertwining and this

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is proof of you know, pagan roots of Christianity. I

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think that's really hard to argue because remember that the

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Christians are being persecuted. Yes, why would the Christians want to,

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you know, intertwine themselves with paganism. In fact, if I

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can just say one more thing about, you know, the

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celebration of Christmas by the early Christian early Christians. In fact,

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there's a wonderful hymn of the Father's Love Forgotten written

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by Prudentius. That's our earliest known Christian hymn in the

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fourth century, and I've heard that song in every Christian church.

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It's just a wonderful hymn. And the Christians set themselves

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aside in terms of their celebration of Christmas as compared

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to the celebration of Soul and Victis or the celebration

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of the Saturnalia. The Christians, Jerome of Jerusalem says this.

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He says, they have debauchery, they have corruption. They drink

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too much wine, you know, they drink too much, they

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eat too much food. It is just absolute corruption. Whereas

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we Christians and the celebration of Christ at this time

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of the year, we're giving to the poor, We're remembering

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Christ and why he came, you know, we're remembering the

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reason for the incarnation. You know, it's such a drastic

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contrast to that pagan celebration. And so the Christians were,

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i would argue, very much aware that what they were

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doing was different, even though it was around the same

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time of year.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is really played out in the notion of

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walk in the spirit and not in the flesh. Absolutely

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only one human being, flesh born human being, who was

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ever perfect. The spirit is always perfect, and the spirit

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lived of course in Christ.

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Speaker 2: God incarnate.

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Speaker 1: But you know that is what Paul and others urged,

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so exactly you walk in that spirit, and that must

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have been well, to say the least, quite a challenge

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in those early days when they weren't walking. A lot

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of times in some places they were running from villages

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where they were being throwing rocks at them and trying

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to take their lives.

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Speaker 3: And again in the two fifties AD, just before Aurelian

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there was empire wide persecution of the Christians. They were

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being dragged out into the streets and it was.

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Speaker 2: Really a horrible time.

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Speaker 3: And so you know, I think that we have to

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recall that the Christians are going to separate themselves, distance

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themselves from their persecutors. Now, one thing I also have

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to add is whereas March twenty fifth, the date of

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the conception of God Incarnate, is the date that they

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look to most reverently.

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Speaker 2: The other, of course, is.

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Speaker 3: Easter, and they set that date very early and have

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a couple of councils in which they want to establish

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the date of the celebration of Easter. There are some

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differences between the West and the East, but mostly based

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upon the fact that we're using different calendars.

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Speaker 2: But it's really the same day, and.

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Speaker 3: And it is it is that that moment of his

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atonement and resurrection that the Christians very early on viewed

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as the most important. The celebration of Christmas and of

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the Incarnation really was a secondary celebration. But I think

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it is important for us to understand that as we

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celebrate it, we do celebrate it in communion with our

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early brothers and sisters in Christ, and that this is

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not something to be taken as just made up by

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the Emperor Constantine and some some group of group of people.

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I'm not sure even who would you know who would

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put that together and say therefore it's a pagan celebration.

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Speaker 2: That's just that's just not correct.

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Speaker 1: Now, sir, are you telling us that this event that

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we celebrate every year as Christians, we it's so dear,

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is not about you know, your your prime membership. It's

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not about heading to the mall and buying up as

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much of the latest stuff as you can for the

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kids or whoever it's it's it's not about that.

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Speaker 2: It's believe it or not, it's not.

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Speaker 3: Although I have to say that if we if we

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truly associate all of that with God's gifts to us

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and God's grace towards us. If that's if that's really

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the meaning that we understand for all of this in context,

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then I think we're heading in the right direction, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think that we.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to be I don't want to be

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too curmudgeonally right, but it is it is important for

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us in the end to focus on why this all happened.

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In fact, I was asked the other day what I

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thought that the most important symbol for Christmas might be,

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And of course I think the crash the Nativity scene

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is very important. But I think too that Christians should

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display across in my tradition as a Catholic, of course,

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a crucifix, so that we remember what Paul says, I

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boasted nothing but Christ and him crucified. That this is

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really at the core the true meaning of Christmas, That

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this is what it all points ahead to, and that

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is the real gift right that has been given to

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us and the real gift that we proclaim to the

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world at this time of year.

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Speaker 4: Fed chair j Pal seems like he's straight out of

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reservoir dogs stuck in the middle. The watched Out on

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Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day, Chris helps

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unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how

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it affects your wallet. With inflation on one side and

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unemployment on the other. J Pal's acting clueless with a

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dual mandate coming in from both sides. There's not much

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else he can do. Whether it's happening in DC or

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down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially.

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Speaker 3: Be informed.

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Speaker 4: Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris

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Rkowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: And so many gifts. I never want to lose track

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of that. You know. The gift obviously is our Lord

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and our Savior.

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Speaker 2: That's appradiable.

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Speaker 1: But I think about all of the miracles then took

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place in order for this birth to be, in order

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for this child to survive a very dangerous time, that

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this child would grow up to do such miraculous works,

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if you would, I mean, I'm not asking you to

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count the miracles, but to talk about the miracles surrounding

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this faith.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So, one thing that always jumps out at me, and

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of course I'm a historian and I think about these things.

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The empire has been established by Caesar Augustus at this time,

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and there's a border, a border that stretches between Egypt

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and the territory overseen by Herod. And of course the

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Holy Family going down to Egypt is a fulfillment of scripture.

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They need to go down to Egypt because the Lord

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would call his son out of Egypt. Right, this is

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this is important. But what I find amazing is that

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Egypt is the is the closest place, the nearest part

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of the Empire to which the Holy Family might go

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for safety and be outside the jurisdiction of Herod. And

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so by going from Bethlehem down to Egypt, and we

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don't know what part of Egypt they were in, they

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had just been given gold, frank and sense and murder

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by the by the magi. But the fact that they're

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called down to there is in my mind a beautiful

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confirmation of so many things of prophecy, of gods, of

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God's providence, of God looking you know, the Joseph being

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faithful to his calling as a father, as an earthly father,

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and Herod can't touch them there, and so you know,

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Matthew tells us that after Herod dies, then the Holy

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Family comes back and goes up to Nazareth. Again it

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is it's perfect in the way that all unfolds his

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his his real Uh. Ministry and miracles don't begin till

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the wedding of Cana in which he you know, produces

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the wine for that wedding. And then his public miracles begin,

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and all of them focused on what on, on healing,

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on health, on on not only spiritual healing, but but

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excuse me, not only physical healing, but spiritual healing as

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well of driving out those demons and those those things

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that possess us. It is it's beautiful and Uh, just

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three years of preaching of miraculous healing, he shows his

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control over nature. John in the Gospel of John, were

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told that he was there. He was present at creation.

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Right this again, this is that baby. That baby was

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present at creation and as an adult Jesus president, he

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had been president at creation. He walks on the water,

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he calms the waves, and his disciples are just in

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awe and sometimes in fear of what this person is

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able to do and what he represents.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever think to yourself, I have done this.

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I think I what hazard as they most Christians have,

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What if you had lived at this time?

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: What if you had seen what these ancient people had seen,

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heard what they had heard, in many cases, felt what

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they had felt right.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I, of course, as we all do,

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would love to say, oh yeah, you know, I'd buy

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into it.

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Speaker 2: I'd be right there, right.

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Speaker 3: But but you know, one of the problems that you know,

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the Jewish leadership and Jews were having with Jesus was

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his claim to divine authority.

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Speaker 2: That he is God right, and so how how would

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you take that and listen to this guy? Of course,

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you would see on the one hand, the amazing miracles

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that he is producing. On the other hand, he's claiming

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that he is God. And therefore, you know, you've just

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got this incredible tension. I would love to have said that,

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you know, I'd fallen in with the other disciples and

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been right there the whole way. But then you know,

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at his at his trial and at his death, they

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all faded away, except for John, except for his mother,

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at hist at his crucifixion, they all faded away and

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and had to come back and and be you know,

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re reattached to him. We find Jesus and Peter on

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the on the shore, and you know, Jesus asked Peter

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three times, do you love me? Right?

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Speaker 3: And there is this reconnection, this reaffirmation of that relationship.

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Speaker 1: The number is striking, isn't it. Three times? Yeah, that's right,

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that's right.

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Speaker 2: Three days.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, to be lifted up three days, three times that

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Peter denied the Christ.

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Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.

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Speaker 1: It is truly the greatest story ever told, because it

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is the greatest salvation known to man, certainly to.

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Speaker 2: We who believe.

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Speaker 1: And I so appreciate you sharing that with us. The

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early times and life of Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 2: Well, Matt, it's it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure to

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talk to you about it. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I hope to talk to you soon. Perhaps we can

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do this on the eastern side of things.

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Speaker 2: I would love to. That would be great.

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Speaker 1: I would look forward to that. Thanks to my guest

447
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today Hillsdale is Kenneth Calvert, Professor of History and director

448
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of the Oxford Program at Hillsdale College. You remember the

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gospel section I was referring to the Book of Luke

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earlier on in our conversation. In fact, it's Luke chapter two,

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verses eight through twenty. For those who grew up during

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a certain time or for those young today who still

453
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love the Peanuts Christmas made all the way back in

454
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what nineteen sixty five, Well, there is a portion of

455
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:53,920
that wonderful Christmas special that you would never see on

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average television, streaming whatever these days. In fact, if you

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recall or if you haven't seen it, I hope you will,

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because it's a holiday tradition in our house that the

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Peanuts gang, Charlie Brown puts together a Peanuts pageant for Christmas.

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He's getting more and more frustrated that nobody understands the

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true meaning of Christmas. And you call Linus puts it

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all in perspective for Charlie Brown and for us.

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Speaker 5: And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in

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the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And lo,

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the Angel of the Lord came upon them. The glory

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of the lordshill round about them, and they were sore afraid,

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and the Angel set into them. If you're not for behold,

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I bring you tidings of great joy which will be

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to all people. For unto you is born this day

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in the City of David, a savior, Christ the Lord.

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And this shall be a sign onto you. You shall

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find the Babe wrapped in swaddling cloves, lying in an anger,

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and suddenly there was with the Angel a multitude of

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the heavenly host praising God. I'm saying glory to God

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in the highest and on earth, peace goodwill toward me

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in That's what Christmas is thought about, Charlie Brown, That's.

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Speaker 1: That's what it means. Linus Well cartoon character carrying around

478
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:39,559
a blue blanket, Well, he put it all in perspective,

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something that we should keep our minds and our hearts on,

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I hope during this Christmas season.

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Speaker 2: And again.

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Speaker 1: Something you would never see in children's television in Christmas

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specials these days. By any stretch, you've been listening to

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another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle,

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Senior Elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll be back soon

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00:32:04,319 --> 00:32:08,319
with more. Until then, stay lovers of freedom, anxious for

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the fray