Speaker 1: Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership. I'm Chris, Lorenzo and Lorenzo
Speaker 1: on this episode, I want to talk about accountability.
Speaker 2: M my favorite topic always.
Speaker 1: We're going to go through a list of the things
Speaker 1: that you've done wrong and we're going to talk about them.
Speaker 2: My favorite time to leave is go.
Speaker 1: Home early, exactly. I want to talk about accountability from
Speaker 1: a couple of different standpoints because I was reading an
Speaker 1: article on Forbes by doctor Dian Hamilton. She's talking about
Speaker 1: the employees are holding leaders to a higher standard of accountability.
Speaker 1: Is the is kind of the crux of the article,
Speaker 1: and I kind of I look at it as in
Speaker 1: two ways. One, yes, I think employees want their leaders
Speaker 1: to admit fault when they've done something wrong. I think
Speaker 1: that's a kind of a natural human nature is to
Speaker 1: is to expect that. I think for the longest time,
Speaker 1: you weren't able to expect that of your leaders, right
Speaker 1: Like it was just the kind of thing where, well,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the perks of the of being
Speaker 1: the boss is that you know that they're not gonna
Speaker 1: admit when they're wrong. They're just gonna hope it goes away.
Speaker 1: And over the course of the last you know, maybe
Speaker 1: between between ten and twenty years that has changed, and
Speaker 1: and leaders who don't do that, they are they're far
Speaker 1: more likely to be held accountable negatively by their by
Speaker 1: their teams and their people. Obviously, you can't necessarily fire
Speaker 1: your boss, although maybe one day you can't. You can't
Speaker 1: fire your boss, but but you can. There could almost
Speaker 1: be a mutiny from the standpoint of uh, you know,
Speaker 1: a decline in productivity and engagement and performance that if
Speaker 1: is not just by one person, if it's by an
Speaker 1: entire team. Organizations tend to look at that as a
Speaker 1: leadership issue. When if you have a high performing team
Speaker 1: with one low performer on it, it's the it's the person.
Speaker 1: If you have a low performing team that was once
Speaker 1: a high performing team and it's all the same people. Oftentimes,
Speaker 1: if you know, companies who are intelligent about this look
Speaker 1: at that as a as a leadership issue, and so
Speaker 1: it's important to understand that as a leader and to
Speaker 1: make sure that you admit fault. But I also think
Speaker 1: that employees are looking for a higher standard of accountability
Speaker 1: on themselves too, and I think it's you know, no
Speaker 1: kid wants to be told that they're in trouble or
Speaker 1: they have to do this or have to do that.
Speaker 1: But clearly, all people of any age function better when
Speaker 1: there are systems and bumpers in place to hold them
Speaker 1: accountable to getting the things done they should get done.
Speaker 1: And it could be biological, like I need to get
Speaker 1: some sleep because if I don't, I'm going to be
Speaker 1: unable to think through the things I need to think
Speaker 1: through the next day. So I'm held accountable by my body,
Speaker 1: you know, or or held accountable by somebody you're in
Speaker 1: a relationship with to make sure that you call at
Speaker 1: a certain time or whatever it is. There are things
Speaker 1: that hold us accountable, and people who have those things
Speaker 1: in place function better, and I think it's it's important
Speaker 1: to talk about it from both standpoints.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, typically when I hear accountability, especially from
Speaker 2: like in articles and things that we read around kind
Speaker 2: of the workforce and what people want to work and
Speaker 2: things like that, the first thing that pops into my
Speaker 2: head is you go to work and there's somebody on
Speaker 2: your team, somebody that you work with. May maybe it's
Speaker 2: your leader, maybe it's not, but like there are people
Speaker 2: around you who are not doing what they're supposed to
Speaker 2: be doing. Or they're not doing it on time, or
Speaker 2: they're not doing it in a way that's like positive
Speaker 2: and you know, like making the work environment fun or easier.
Speaker 2: Like like, I think a lot of times when we
Speaker 2: talk about accountability, it's not necessarily as specific as like,
Speaker 2: here's the behavioral thing. Maybe it is maybe in somebody's world.
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, people don't come to work, you know,
Speaker 2: consistently enough, and that makes my job harder. So like,
Speaker 2: I want accountability, but I just want it in this
Speaker 2: one space now. Typically it's just.
Speaker 1: This whenever I don't come to work is a really
Speaker 1: good reason for it. But these other people terrible reasons.
Speaker 1: I don't know if there are, but they are terrible exactly.
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, But I think it's it's more of the
Speaker 2: larger picture around going to work, looking around and being
Speaker 2: like if everybody would just do what they're supposed to
Speaker 2: be doing and do it well, then like my job
Speaker 2: would be easier, we would get more work done, it
Speaker 2: would be more fun to be here. So I think that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think when we talk about accountability, it really to
Speaker 2: me it boils down to leadership every single time, because
Speaker 2: either the leader themselves is not holding themselves accountable and
Speaker 2: showing up and doing the work that a leader should do,
Speaker 2: or a leader is not holding the team accountable in
Speaker 2: ways that everybody has either agreed that this is how
Speaker 2: we should do the work, or these are the expectations
Speaker 2: of the job, or whatever the case is. So I
Speaker 2: don't know that like like this generation of workers or
Speaker 2: this current workforce is saying we want more accountability than
Speaker 2: we've ever had before. I think that this has been
Speaker 2: an ongoing thing over the decades. I just think hearing
Speaker 2: about it now again because we have these tools and
Speaker 2: these capabilities of discussing it, and and we're actually asking
Speaker 2: these questions on employee surveys and on things that we're
Speaker 2: doing across you know, all industries. We're getting this data
Speaker 2: that bec has always existed, but now we're creating spaces
Speaker 2: for people to really share how they're feeling about it.
Speaker 2: And now, you know, we have to look in the
Speaker 2: mirror and be like, all right, what's what are we
Speaker 2: really going to do around creating better elements of accountability
Speaker 2: that are consistent, that are fair, and that are based
Speaker 2: upon the job that we're asking people to do.
Speaker 1: Right well, and also that aren't hypocritical right. So exactly
Speaker 1: if you if you're a leader and you're holding people
Speaker 1: accountable to something, to some standard that you are not
Speaker 1: then holding yourself accountable to, that's going to that's going
Speaker 1: to be a problem, regardless of what it is. It
Speaker 1: could be something small or something huge. Employees see through
Speaker 1: those things very very quickly, and so you know, the
Speaker 1: the right the right solution is either to stop holding
Speaker 1: them accountable or start holding yourself accountable at least from
Speaker 1: a you know, getting rid of the hypocrisy. Which which
Speaker 1: way is the proper way forward is really up to
Speaker 1: you and how it impacts the performance. I think there
Speaker 1: are some leaders who hold their people to arbitrary standards
Speaker 1: that aren't necessarily rooted in actual real performance. They're rooted
Speaker 1: in what the leader's assumption is of what it looks
Speaker 1: like to have a high performing team, and they get
Speaker 1: held accountable to things that really don't necessarily impact that
Speaker 1: as much, right, And they do that from a standpoint
Speaker 1: of thinking that accountability is the thing. Accountability isn't the thing.
Speaker 1: Accountability is the thing to get you to the thing, right,
Speaker 1: So you have to know its place, because if it
Speaker 1: doesn't solve the problem, then there's no point to it.
Speaker 1: So I'll take it back to the employees wanting their
Speaker 1: coworkers to be held accountable. Employees don't want their co
Speaker 1: workers to be held accountable. Employees want the behavior that
Speaker 1: is impacting them to stop. And by the time they
Speaker 1: get to the point where they're thinking they want this
Speaker 1: person fired, they want this person, you know, publicly flogged,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever it is, it's the it's the Catharsis
Speaker 1: they're looking for. Of thinking they they want to they
Speaker 1: want to be walking by the office door with the
Speaker 1: door open accidentally and hear that person getting yelled at
Speaker 1: for for something they did, because they can go, yeah,
Speaker 1: give it to them, you know, they're they're they're the
Speaker 1: ones who made my job harder. It's like they it's
Speaker 1: not really what they're looking for. They just want the
Speaker 1: whatever they perceive as the behavior that is impacting the
Speaker 1: team to stop. And that's actually a good thing because
Speaker 1: if you're a leader and the way you're holding your
Speaker 1: team accountable is public and so that other people on
Speaker 1: the team can see it happening, that's poor leadership already.
Speaker 1: And so so you have to hold people accountable in
Speaker 1: a way that that leaves them with their dignity, you
Speaker 1: know that when you're not doing it publicly in front
Speaker 1: of other people. But that also gives the rest of
Speaker 1: the team the impression that you are holding people accountable
Speaker 1: without them ever seeing you do it. And and the
Speaker 1: only way that is done is by one hul the
Speaker 1: behavior changes, and two making sure that the that the
Speaker 1: people that everybody's getting a taste of it so that
Speaker 1: they can think to themselves, well, I'm I'm getting it.
Speaker 1: At least they're doing something. They're they're they're doing something,
Speaker 1: and then over a timeline, the behavior will get better
Speaker 1: and will stop, and the impression of accountability will be
Speaker 1: there even though it's not necessarily public.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So this is a safe space, right, just you
Speaker 2: and me talking right. Nobody else is going to hear this,
Speaker 2: right right?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: No one, okay, okay, all right, uh full transparency. There
Speaker 2: have been times in my career where I just wanted
Speaker 2: them to get in trouble. I just I just wanted
Speaker 2: that to happen. Like it wasn't. It wasn't as a
Speaker 2: high road as you were kind of describing around like
Speaker 2: I don't want them No, Actually I was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: like they they need somebody needs to be in charge
Speaker 2: here and somebody's got to hold them accountable. So if
Speaker 2: you're at this portion of the show and you agree
Speaker 2: with me, okay, send an email to info at hacking
Speaker 2: your Leadership dot com and I have some free swag.
Speaker 2: I'm going to mail you. I've got some notebooks, I've
Speaker 2: got some stuff some of our authors have sent us.
Speaker 2: I got some free books. So again, just if you
Speaker 2: if you agree with me, if there's been times in
Speaker 2: your career where you're like, yeah, I totally just I
Speaker 2: just want them to get yelled at and I want
Speaker 2: to overhear it in the office, right right, sure, email
Speaker 2: dear Loso at infhone hacking Leadership dot com. I agree,
Speaker 2: and then send me your address and I will send
Speaker 2: you some free swag. How about that for a mid
Speaker 2: show free giveaway. If you feel like, if you lasted
Speaker 2: this long through the show, get something for free, shoot
Speaker 2: me the email.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that. You you might get a lot
Speaker 1: of emails, Bud.
Speaker 2: Let's put a cap on this. Let's put a cap
Speaker 2: on this.
Speaker 1: Okay, within the first time, within the first show, within.
Speaker 2: Exactly yeah, first hundred people, with the twenty four hours
Speaker 2: of the episode publishing, I'll put a cap on it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I got a lot of free stuff. I got
Speaker 2: some cool stuff, so I'll do my absolute best.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think you're not wrong. I mean, like you know,
Speaker 1: full transparency. There are times when I when I'm driving
Speaker 1: and I want to run somebody off the road. I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't don't do that, but I think it's it's
Speaker 1: it's human nature to want that. Again, it's the Catharsis
Speaker 1: of thinking, yes, somebody did something. We want to see
Speaker 1: people get their comeuppance, right, we want to see we
Speaker 1: want to we want the universe to feel like it's working.
Speaker 1: We know that bad things won't won't stop. We just
Speaker 1: want to know that if somebody does something that they're
Speaker 1: going to get in trouble for it, because on the
Speaker 1: same token, we're thinking if I did that, I'd get
Speaker 1: in trouble for it, right, And so it's this, it's
Speaker 1: this feeling of a lack of fairness that is it's
Speaker 1: kind of rooted in that. And so you want to
Speaker 1: see people held accountable and that that applies to your
Speaker 1: leaders too. You want your leaders to be held accountable
Speaker 1: to things. And obviously you're not gonna watch your leader
Speaker 1: be chastised by their leader on something they did wrong.
Speaker 1: But if you see the behavior change, then you you
Speaker 1: have to assume that some coaching was done and some
Speaker 1: accountability was done. Now there are ways to do that,
Speaker 1: like if you're if your boss's boss holds them accountable,
Speaker 1: that that's one thing. But you can you can ask
Speaker 1: the questions right if you know, good leaders and good
Speaker 1: organizations have something in place to ask people what they're
Speaker 1: looking for or what's missing, and if the if a
Speaker 1: theme of the responses is a lack of leader accountability,
Speaker 1: then that's an important thing to address and to to
Speaker 1: try to dive in deeper with some people about what
Speaker 1: they meant by that or or you know, trying to
Speaker 1: figure out where that lies. If you don't have all
Speaker 1: the information, it's it's important to know. And then once
Speaker 1: you know it, you can't just say great, our work
Speaker 1: here is done. You actually have to do something about it.
Speaker 1: You can't just ask the question. Asking the question without
Speaker 1: any plan to rectify it is you might as well
Speaker 1: not ask it to begin with. Because when when a
Speaker 1: team of people are asked these questions, they assume there's
Speaker 1: a reason they're being asked, and that reason is that
Speaker 1: they want the company leadership structure wants to solve these problems.
Speaker 1: And you can only ask those questions a couple of
Speaker 1: times without the employees see meaningful change in the areas
Speaker 1: they've expressed a problem in before they stop, you know,
Speaker 1: giving you good feedback on those surveys, before they stop
Speaker 1: being honest, before they stop caring about them. It's you know,
Speaker 1: better to not make the promise than to than to
Speaker 1: imply that it has been made and then not do
Speaker 1: anything about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I completely agree with that. I think it's
Speaker 2: such an important, you know, piece to kind of call
Speaker 2: out and discuss. I think that there's you know, I
Speaker 2: know I was joking earlier, but I think that the
Speaker 2: reality is a lot of times, you know, when it
Speaker 2: comes to uh, just overall accountability, I think that And
Speaker 2: I was having this conversation with a few leaders, you know,
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago, but being upfront and talking
Speaker 2: about what, you know, accountability is, what does it mean
Speaker 2: to us? What are the rape percussions for it? What
Speaker 2: what what are the and then we've talked about this,
Speaker 2: that talked about this before in the podcast, but like,
Speaker 2: how do you want to be held accountable? That sounds
Speaker 2: like such a silly thing, but the reality is that
Speaker 2: there's a lot of truth and element and transparency to
Speaker 2: that when you're talking to a team, and when you're
Speaker 2: talking to a team of leaders and people to say, like,
Speaker 2: let's talk like this is gonna happen, right There are
Speaker 2: gonna be moments in time where where somebody's not going
Speaker 2: to live to the commitment that we've made, or somebody
Speaker 2: is going to do something that has a negative impact
Speaker 2: on the team, you know, like like what does that
Speaker 2: look like and how does that work? And what are
Speaker 2: the steps there? And I think as a leader of people,
Speaker 2: but even as a leader of leaders, if you're teaching
Speaker 2: leaders how to become more effective at accountability, you actually
Speaker 2: have to talk about accountability, not when you're holding somebody accountable, right,
Speaker 2: And and that's usually what ends up happening, is that
Speaker 2: you hold somebody accountable and then you want them to
Speaker 2: learn through that, or you do something and somebody's like, well,
Speaker 2: how come we don't an accountability here? And then you
Speaker 2: kind of have to like whisper to be like, we
Speaker 2: do hold people accountable, we just can't talk about it.
Speaker 2: And you would never know if we hold them accountable
Speaker 2: instead of saying, like, this is how we do this,
Speaker 2: and when these things happen, let me tell you what
Speaker 2: happens here, and like you know, you're not going to
Speaker 2: know because, as an example, Chris, if Chris doesn't come
Speaker 2: to work on time or is not here when he's
Speaker 2: supposed to be here, and I hold Chris accountable, I'm
Speaker 2: going to talk to Chris when he comes on to
Speaker 2: his next shift. We're going to go sit down in
Speaker 2: the office. I'm gonna share with him the expectations. He's
Speaker 2: going to get a written warning or whatever the case
Speaker 2: is that you do for your organization. This is what's
Speaker 2: gonna happen. And then, as the leader, I am not
Speaker 2: supposed to come out here and tell you all that
Speaker 2: I've held Chris accountable. Chris can tell you, Chris can
Speaker 2: say whatever he wants, right, I can't do that as
Speaker 2: the leader. What I can tell you is that this
Speaker 2: is the process. And also what I can tell you
Speaker 2: is that if you notice a trend of people coming
Speaker 2: to work, or if you yourself are coming to work
Speaker 2: lates or those types like, then we're going to have
Speaker 2: a conversation. But like we don't do a good job
Speaker 2: and that at all, and especially when it comes to
Speaker 2: leading leaders, like teaching them how to be that upfront
Speaker 2: and transparent with a process like accountability.
Speaker 1: Right, well, because they think, I think it's not natural
Speaker 1: to want to talk about it because it's a negative thing, right,
Speaker 1: Like to tell you want to be more positive, you
Speaker 1: want you want to talk about the positive things, and
Speaker 1: you want to you know, quickly get through the negative things.
Speaker 1: Almost from like a paperwork standpoint, we want to cross
Speaker 1: our teas and daughter eyes. We want to make sure
Speaker 1: that we are doing the right thing. From a you know,
Speaker 1: a fairness and objectivity and human resources standpoint, we want
Speaker 1: to make sure we do all those things right. But
Speaker 1: no one wants talk about accountability because you know, it's
Speaker 1: not that's not the fun stuff, you know, and and
Speaker 1: I get I completely get the the inclination to do that,
Speaker 1: but that but they're not mutually exclusive here, right. You
Speaker 1: can talk about accountability from a positive standpoint. You can
Speaker 1: talk about it from a standpoint of these are the
Speaker 1: expectations of the of the team, because this is what
Speaker 1: we'll get the team further, this is what will get
Speaker 1: the performance we're looking for, and this will open doors
Speaker 1: for future advancement, and and and and it's the accountability
Speaker 1: discussion is part of that broader discussion, because if you
Speaker 1: don't talk about it in advance, and you can't talk
Speaker 1: about it when it's happening, then you never talk about it,
Speaker 1: and then people think it's not happening. But but if
Speaker 1: you talk about it enough, then people will get the
Speaker 1: impression that it's happening, because you don't typically talk about
Speaker 1: things that often without actually putting them in place. If
Speaker 1: it's part of the vernacular, and if leaders are good
Speaker 1: at talking about it when it's not actually happening, but
Speaker 1: when it's hypothetical or this is what we do or
Speaker 1: this is the process or the procedure. When leaders are
Speaker 1: good at doing that, then typically it means that the organization,
Speaker 1: the structure is in place to do that. Otherwise those
Speaker 1: things don't usually get talked about. Oftentimes, when they don't
Speaker 1: get talked about, it's an indicator that the structure in
Speaker 1: place to hold people accountable is more haphazard, right, it's
Speaker 1: more one offs and individuals in Well, we don't really
Speaker 1: have a process, but let's just see what has happened
Speaker 1: and then I'll tell you what the process is for
Speaker 1: that person for that thing, as opposed to having an
Speaker 1: actual process that people can then rely on, and that
Speaker 1: clarity that you can provide people of having the discussion beforehand,
Speaker 1: not only does it tell them that yes, we do this,
Speaker 1: we hold people accountable, but it tells them what. It
Speaker 1: gives them the clarity on what the process is, so
Speaker 1: that they're not fearful of it. Like if they do
Speaker 1: something wrong, if they make a mistake, you don't want
Speaker 1: them losing sleep the night before about what's going to happen.
Speaker 1: You want them already knowing what's going to happen. Well,
Speaker 1: I did this, this is what will happen. There's a
Speaker 1: big difference between someone talking to you about something and
Speaker 1: losing your job. And if you've done something as an
Speaker 1: employee and you don't know what's coming into work the
Speaker 1: next day, whether it's going to be someone having a
Speaker 1: stern word with you or getting fired, then your leadership
Speaker 1: team has done a terrible job letting people know what
Speaker 1: the process is. Because you should know exactly what would happen.
Speaker 1: You should know long before, and that way you can
Speaker 1: anticipate it and you're not stewing in something you know,
Speaker 1: kind of hoping it will go the right way.
Speaker 2: You should know absolutely. And with that it brings us
Speaker 2: to this episodes one minute Hack. But first a few
Speaker 2: words from our sponsors.
Speaker 1: All right, for this episode one minute Hack, we want
Speaker 1: you to understand that one of the most important parts
Speaker 1: of accountability is what you say about accountability and the
Speaker 1: process that is in place and how people are held accountable,
Speaker 1: not just applying to your teams, but to yourself as
Speaker 1: well when it's not actually happening. Having that vernacular and
Speaker 1: that that verbage in place that you can talk about
Speaker 1: where you do it in a positive way from a
Speaker 1: standpoint of letting people know what the process is. Should
Speaker 1: somebody do something not where you've just done it with
Speaker 1: some person and they can when they're hearing it from you,
Speaker 1: they're thinking, oh, I know what they're I know who
Speaker 1: they're talking about. Is no, it's they don't need to
Speaker 1: know who you're talking about. So you have to talk
Speaker 1: about it when it's not actually happening. But if you
Speaker 1: have that in place and you talk about it often enough,
Speaker 1: then then people will get the impression that it's happening.
Speaker 1: Now you have to follow up and actually do it.
Speaker 1: You have to hold people accountable to the things that
Speaker 1: you're saying, but avoiding the conversation and then just holding
Speaker 1: people accountable is a recipe for people either a not
Speaker 1: giving you credit for the accountability you're actually doing and
Speaker 1: be not understanding how the organization or you as a
Speaker 1: leader work when it comes to holding people accountable, talking
Speaker 1: about it openly lets them know that A. It happens,
Speaker 1: and B. Now you've told yourself to the same standard
Speaker 1: because you've articulated it to them. Now you better be
Speaker 1: on your best behavior to know that whatever when you
Speaker 1: do something, you're gonna be held with that same standard too.
Speaker 1: And so so when you're when you're telling them this verbage,
Speaker 1: make sure it's something that you can hold yourself to
Speaker 1: as well, or it's not going to work either. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think it's a great woman in a hack and
Speaker 2: it's such an important thing around Like we're talking about accountability,
Speaker 2: and accountability starts with self accountability. And you know, you've
Speaker 2: got to be able to set the standard for yourself.
Speaker 2: You've got to be able to you know, if you
Speaker 2: if you set an expectation for a team, if you're
Speaker 2: a leader of a team, if you're a leader of leaders,
Speaker 2: and you say this is the rule set. This is
Speaker 2: how we do accountability. These are the things that we do.
Speaker 2: You have to be super conscious about how you show
Speaker 2: up in that space and how you set that example,
Speaker 2: because that's the number one thing that will wreck any
Speaker 2: kind of true element of like accountability amongst the team
Speaker 2: is the leader holding themselves to that same standard. That's
Speaker 2: that's extremely important, right, It.
Speaker 1: Doesn't matter what it is. It could it could be
Speaker 1: not meeting a goal, or it could be stealing from
Speaker 1: the company. It doesn't it literally does not matter what
Speaker 1: it is. The rules for the leader cannot be different
Speaker 1: than the rules for the employee. It has to be
Speaker 1: the same. And there has to be no doubt in
Speaker 1: the minds of people that there aren't different sets of
Speaker 1: rules for different people. The accountability is accountability, and it's objective,
Speaker 1: and it's based on kind of shared values and agreed
Speaker 1: upon standards, not based on the whims of a person.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and with that it bringsists at the end of
Speaker 2: this episode, this is hacking leadership. I'm Lorenzo and I'm Chris,
Speaker 2: and we'll talk to you all next time.