1
00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:08,960
Speaker 1: Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,

2
00:00:09,519 --> 00:00:10,119
an idea.

3
00:00:10,919 --> 00:00:13,439
Speaker 2: The population of atheists in this country is going.

4
00:00:13,279 --> 00:00:18,600
Speaker 1: Through the rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred.

5
00:00:18,839 --> 00:00:22,239
If I tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth,

6
00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:24,440
not because I put my hand on a book and

7
00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,960
made a wish and working together for a more rational world.

8
00:00:29,199 --> 00:00:32,159
Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking, feel so much more happiness.

9
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,799
Truth Beusian wisdom will come to you that way.

10
00:00:35,759 --> 00:00:43,640
Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the

11
00:00:43,679 --> 00:00:52,840
Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.

12
00:00:56,399 --> 00:00:58,960
Speaker 2: It was back in I think two thousand and seven

13
00:00:59,479 --> 00:01:03,880
when Rich Dawkins The God Delusion released. I was watching

14
00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,200
a video of one of his speeches. He was reading

15
00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,640
excerpts from the book, and he read this, The God

16
00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,760
of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character

17
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,680
in all fiction. Jealous and proud of it. A petty, unjust,

18
00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:31,879
unforgiving control freak, a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal,

19
00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:41,560
philicidl pestilential, megalelemiacal, sato mesochistic, capriciously malevolent, Bully. The God

20
00:01:41,599 --> 00:01:45,879
delusion was seismic for me. It was just a watershed

21
00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,079
book and it hit me at the right time, and

22
00:01:49,159 --> 00:01:53,159
it altered the trajectory of the rest of my life.

23
00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,480
And to use that kind of language to talk about

24
00:01:56,879 --> 00:01:59,280
the God of the Bible was just, I mean, talk

25
00:01:59,319 --> 00:02:04,840
about yes for me, talk about sacrilege, Holy Cow. And

26
00:02:05,359 --> 00:02:07,640
as I got into my own journey, I had read

27
00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,879
a book by Charles Templeton, who was kind of the

28
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,039
Canadian Billy Graham. In fact, he was an associate of

29
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,000
Billy Graham. The book is called Farewell to God. Charles

30
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,159
Templeton passed away years ago, but his book was out there,

31
00:02:21,199 --> 00:02:25,360
and I think i'd heard Christopher Hitchins mention it, and

32
00:02:25,439 --> 00:02:27,919
so I grabbed the book and read it, and it

33
00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,759
was the same thing. He just went point by point

34
00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,280
and said this is wrong, this is offensive, this is horrifying.

35
00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,680
I just felt so dumb. The stuff was there, in

36
00:02:38,759 --> 00:02:42,439
black and white, front and center, right right there in

37
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:47,360
the Bible, and yet I just hadn't seen it, or

38
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,360
I hadn't noticed it, or maybe I just hadn't wanted

39
00:02:50,479 --> 00:02:56,240
to notice. It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing, and so of course

40
00:02:56,319 --> 00:02:59,520
once you start to read the Bible objectively, you know

41
00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,759
I'm going to start to fall. There was an article

42
00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,639
that Dan Barker posted years ago on the Freedom from

43
00:03:06,879 --> 00:03:11,800
Religion websites for Freethought Today, and he wrote a book

44
00:03:11,879 --> 00:03:16,120
called God the most Unpleasant character in All Fiction. And

45
00:03:16,159 --> 00:03:18,960
he said, here is my list of the ten worst

46
00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:24,080
Old Testament passages in reverse order. My main criterion is

47
00:03:24,159 --> 00:03:27,680
that this list shows us something about the character of God.

48
00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,560
All believers admit that the Bible contained some stomach churning tales,

49
00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,960
but these examples reveal the Lord himself commanding, committing, or

50
00:03:38,039 --> 00:03:43,360
condoning the brutality. Richard Dawkins was not exaggerating when he

51
00:03:43,439 --> 00:03:49,719
called God a capriciously malevolent bully. Number ten. God destroys

52
00:03:49,759 --> 00:03:54,439
a good family for no reason. God made a bet

53
00:03:54,479 --> 00:03:58,400
with Satan the job a good and blameless man would

54
00:03:58,439 --> 00:04:01,800
remain faithful e then if he killed his children and

55
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,759
ruined his life. Here we see God indicting himself for

56
00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:11,400
the crime, openly confessing that he destroyed a family for

57
00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,719
no reason. The Lord said to Satan, have you considered

58
00:04:15,759 --> 00:04:18,839
my servant job? There was no one like him on

59
00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,279
the earth. A blameless and upright man who fears God

60
00:04:22,399 --> 00:04:27,240
and turns away from evil. He still persists in his integrity,

61
00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:32,160
although you indicted me against him to destroy him for

62
00:04:32,519 --> 00:04:39,040
no reason. Job chapter two, verse three, number nine. On

63
00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:44,120
Dan Barker's list, God destroys the fetuses of those who

64
00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:48,319
do not worship him. This is not the only feata

65
00:04:48,439 --> 00:04:51,759
sidle passage in the Bible, but it is the worst.

66
00:04:52,319 --> 00:04:57,920
You shall acknowledge no God but me. You are destroyed Israel.

67
00:04:58,079 --> 00:05:01,519
The people of Samaria must be bear their guilt because

68
00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,279
they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by

69
00:05:05,319 --> 00:05:08,879
the sword. Their little ones will be dashed on the ground,

70
00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:16,639
their pregnant women ripped open. That's Hoseiah Chapter thirteen, number eight.

71
00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,240
God approves the massacre of a peaceful people so one

72
00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,279
of his tribes could have a place to live. Most

73
00:05:25,319 --> 00:05:29,160
believers think God destroyed the Canaanites because they were depraved

74
00:05:29,199 --> 00:05:32,879
and immoral, although the Bible does not make that claim.

75
00:05:33,199 --> 00:05:37,120
They were killed and labeled evil and wicked simply because

76
00:05:37,199 --> 00:05:40,560
they did not worship him. Here's a group of people

77
00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,920
who did nothing wrong. They were at peace and secure,

78
00:05:45,439 --> 00:05:50,160
but they had to be eliminated. Judges Chapter eighteen, verses

79
00:05:50,199 --> 00:05:53,800
one through twenty eight. And in those days the tribe

80
00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,959
of the Danites was seeking a place of their own

81
00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,439
where they might settle, because they had not yet come

82
00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,360
into an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. Then they

83
00:06:04,439 --> 00:06:07,800
said to the priest, please inquire of God to learn

84
00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,959
whether our journey will be successful. The priest answered them,

85
00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:17,079
go in peace. Your journey has the Lord's approval. Then

86
00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,199
they took what Micah had made and his priest and

87
00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:25,480
went on to layish against a people at peace and secure.

88
00:06:25,879 --> 00:06:30,600
They attacked them with the sword and burned down their city.

89
00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:36,959
The Danites rebuilt the city and settled there. The Canaanites

90
00:06:36,959 --> 00:06:42,439
were not the evildoers. The Israelites were the invaders. Number

91
00:06:42,519 --> 00:06:48,680
seven babies are slaughtered and wives raped. The murderous Old

92
00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,959
Testament deity deemed human life to be worthless, placing his

93
00:06:53,079 --> 00:06:57,560
own megalealmiacal glory above human values. Here's one of the

94
00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,519
worst examples, Isaiah thirteenth. As see, the day of the

95
00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:06,720
Lord is coming, a cruel day with wrath and fierce anger.

96
00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,319
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty.

97
00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,439
Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes.

98
00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:22,319
Their houses will be looted and their wives violated. Number six,

99
00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,680
A mixed race coupled is murdered by a godly priest

100
00:07:26,839 --> 00:07:32,639
to keep God's people pure. The righteous priest Finihas murdered

101
00:07:32,639 --> 00:07:37,439
a loving couple for the crime of missagenation, which means

102
00:07:37,439 --> 00:07:43,360
sexual relationships or reproduction between people of different ethnic groups.

103
00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,519
Then he was praised by God and rewarded for the

104
00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,600
hate crime with a perpetual priesthood for keeping the nation

105
00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:56,120
racially pure. Numbers Chapter twenty five. Just then one of

106
00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:00,000
the Israelites came and brought a Midianite woman into his family,

107
00:08:00,639 --> 00:08:02,800
in the sight of Moses and in the sight of

108
00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:08,759
the whole congregation of the Israelites. When Finnihas, son of Elizar,

109
00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,839
son of Aaron, the Priest saw it, he got up

110
00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,759
and left the congregation. Taking a spear in his hand,

111
00:08:17,279 --> 00:08:20,240
he went after the Israelite man into the tent and

112
00:08:20,439 --> 00:08:24,399
pierced the two of them, the Israelite and the woman,

113
00:08:24,839 --> 00:08:29,439
through the belly, so the plague was stopped among the

114
00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,679
people of Israel. The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Finnihas,

115
00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:37,639
son of Elizar, son of Aaron, the priest has turned

116
00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:42,919
back my wrath from the Israelites by manifesting such zeal

117
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,559
among them on my behalf, that in my jealousy I

118
00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:52,399
did not consume the Israelites. Therefore, say I hear my

119
00:08:52,639 --> 00:08:56,039
grant him my covenant of peace. It shall be for

120
00:08:56,159 --> 00:08:59,440
him and for his descendants after him, a covenant of

121
00:08:59,519 --> 00:09:04,279
perpetual priesthood. Because he was zealous for his God and

122
00:09:04,399 --> 00:09:10,720
made atonement for the Israelites. Dan Barker's list continues number five,

123
00:09:11,519 --> 00:09:16,440
A daughter is burned as an acceptable sacrifice to God.

124
00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,360
General Jeptha made a vow with God in order to

125
00:09:20,519 --> 00:09:25,519
defeat the enemy. When Jeptha won the war, God received

126
00:09:25,639 --> 00:09:31,399
his one hundred pounds of flesh Judges Chapter eleven. And

127
00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,480
Jeptha made a vow to the Lord, if you give

128
00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,080
the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the

129
00:09:38,159 --> 00:09:41,120
door of my house to meet me when I return

130
00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,039
in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord's and

131
00:09:45,159 --> 00:09:49,440
I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering. This story

132
00:09:49,519 --> 00:09:51,759
just bugs me. What did he expect to walk out

133
00:09:51,759 --> 00:09:55,559
of his door like a can't you know a pig

134
00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:57,840
or something? I mean, he had to have thought, well,

135
00:09:57,879 --> 00:10:01,240
the chances of my kid, you know, I mean, she's

136
00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:04,360
got gait privileges, right, she would have entered an exit

137
00:10:04,399 --> 00:10:06,159
in the house. Well, what are the chances? I just

138
00:10:06,159 --> 00:10:10,360
don't understand. When Jeptha returned to his home in Misbah,

139
00:10:10,919 --> 00:10:13,919
who should come out to meet him but his daughter

140
00:10:14,519 --> 00:10:18,720
dancing to the sound of timbrels. After the two months,

141
00:10:18,879 --> 00:10:22,440
she returned to her father, and he did to her

142
00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,000
as he had vowed. Now let me flesh this one out.

143
00:10:25,879 --> 00:10:28,720
So Jeptha came back and all of a sudden, big surprise,

144
00:10:28,799 --> 00:10:31,080
his daughter walks through the door and he has an

145
00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:36,600
O shit moment. And the argument by apologist is that, well,

146
00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,080
actually this meant that she was consecrated to the Lord,

147
00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,200
that she would commit the rest of her life to

148
00:10:43,399 --> 00:10:46,799
God like a nun. She wasn't burned on the altar,

149
00:10:46,879 --> 00:10:50,039
which is total crap because if you read that series

150
00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,200
of verses, Jeptha flipped out, he wailed, he agonized, he

151
00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,639
tore his clothing. Why would he do that if his

152
00:10:57,759 --> 00:11:02,399
daughter was merely being consecrated. And then his daughter asks

153
00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,879
if she can have eight weeks to go into the

154
00:11:04,919 --> 00:11:09,159
wilderness to grieve over the fact that when she dies,

155
00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,320
she'll die of virgin two months have gone. Ah shit,

156
00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,559
I guess I'm never going to have sex in this life.

157
00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,759
And then she comes back and agrees. Does she just

158
00:11:20,879 --> 00:11:23,279
lie down on the altar? Does she pour the fuel

159
00:11:23,399 --> 00:11:26,519
upon herself? Does she arrange the twigs and the sticks

160
00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,279
and the kindling. I don't understand the story, but it's offensive,

161
00:11:30,759 --> 00:11:34,679
and it is in the Book of Judges chapter eleven.

162
00:11:34,879 --> 00:11:38,759
After burning his daughter, Jeptha was rewarded with a prestigious

163
00:11:38,919 --> 00:11:44,399
judge ship and was later buried with honor number four.

164
00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:51,320
The cannibalistic God makes people eat human flesh. There are

165
00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:56,120
nine passages in the Old Testament where God makes cannibalistic threats.

166
00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:01,879
Here is the worst one. This is Leviticus, verses twenty

167
00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,559
seven through twenty nine. And if ye will not for

168
00:12:05,759 --> 00:12:10,440
all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me,

169
00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,600
then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury,

170
00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,200
and I even I will chastise you seven times for

171
00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:23,639
your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your

172
00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:29,120
sons and the flesh of your daughters. Shall ye eat?

173
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:35,480
Number three from Dan Barker. God threatens rape, then takes

174
00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:41,120
credit for it. Jeremiah thirteen. This passage was new to me,

175
00:12:41,279 --> 00:12:44,200
Dan says, and it blew me away. I guess I'd

176
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,240
only read it before in the King James version, where

177
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,440
the sexual molestation is not obvious. Here it is in

178
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:56,720
the NRSV New Romi Standard version, where the Israelites were

179
00:12:56,759 --> 00:13:01,240
asking why they were being attacked by the babylone hear

180
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,759
and give ear. Do not be haughty, for the Lord

181
00:13:04,799 --> 00:13:07,960
has spoken. And if you say in your heart, why

182
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,799
have these things come upon me? It is for the

183
00:13:10,879 --> 00:13:14,600
greatness of your iniquity that your skirts are lifted up

184
00:13:14,639 --> 00:13:18,720
and you are violated, because you have forgotten me and

185
00:13:18,799 --> 00:13:23,679
trusted in lies. I myself will lift up your skirts

186
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:29,279
over your face, and your shame will be seen. Skirts

187
00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:34,000
lifted up is sexual assault. Violate is rape. The King

188
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:39,159
James version has the quaint heels made bear, which obscures

189
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:44,360
the sexual assault. Note that the iniquity for which they

190
00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,799
were being raped was not immorality or depravity. It was

191
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:55,399
simply because quote you have forgotten me. Number two, God

192
00:13:55,519 --> 00:14:02,320
threatens sexual molestation. The Lord will haras attractive uppity women

193
00:14:02,519 --> 00:14:07,919
by exposing their private parts Isaiah chapter three. Moreover, the

194
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:12,000
Lord saith because the daughters of Zion are haughty and

195
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:16,720
walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and

196
00:14:16,919 --> 00:14:20,320
mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their

197
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,279
feet their form. The Lord will smite with a scab

198
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,519
the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion,

199
00:14:27,639 --> 00:14:33,120
and the Lord will discover their secret parts. The new

200
00:14:33,159 --> 00:14:38,200
International version covers up this embarrassing passage with make their

201
00:14:38,279 --> 00:14:44,519
scalps bald in place of discover their secret parts. The

202
00:14:44,559 --> 00:14:52,080
Hebrew four poth pot is vagina. Other translations are more honest.

203
00:14:52,399 --> 00:14:58,200
The Orthodox Jewish Bible has lay bare their nakedness, Amplified Bible,

204
00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:03,600
stripped naked, come complete. Jewish Bible expose their private parts.

205
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:09,559
Common English version uncover their private parts, and Living Bible

206
00:15:09,919 --> 00:15:15,360
expose their nakedness for all to see. Even if Daughters

207
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,639
of Zion is a metaphor for Israel, it is a

208
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:25,080
metaphor of sexual assaults. And finally, number one, God wants

209
00:15:25,159 --> 00:15:29,159
you to be happy to dash babies against the rocks.

210
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,960
Dan Barker says, I've always thought this was the worst

211
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:38,320
verse in the Bible, and my opinion remains unchanged. Psalm

212
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,000
one thirty seven, verses eight and nine, O Daughter Babylon,

213
00:15:42,159 --> 00:15:46,919
you devastator. Happy shall they be who pay you back

214
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,360
what you have done to us? Happy shall they be

215
00:15:50,679 --> 00:15:55,720
who take your little ones and dash them against the rock?

216
00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,759
God was not merely saying that regrettable collateral damage might

217
00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:05,559
occur during wartime. He said believers should be happy. Some

218
00:16:05,679 --> 00:16:10,840
translations say blessed to kill innocent babies of those who

219
00:16:10,879 --> 00:16:16,000
are keeping you from worshiping your own God, and Dan

220
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,000
finishes by saying this, anyone who claims to admire and

221
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,879
worship the biblical God has either abandoned all sense of

222
00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,279
moral judgment or has never actually read the Old Testament.

223
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,559
Since most believers are good people, I prefer to assume

224
00:16:31,759 --> 00:16:34,360
the latter. I think the world would be a much

225
00:16:34,399 --> 00:16:38,720
better place if people would actually read the book. A. A. Milne,

226
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,120
author of Winnie the Pooh, said the Old Testament is

227
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:49,360
responsible for more atheism, agnosticism, disbelief call it what you will,

228
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,840
than any book ever written. It has emptied more churches

229
00:16:53,919 --> 00:16:58,399
than all of the counter attractions of cinema, motor bicycle,

230
00:16:58,519 --> 00:17:02,879
and golf course. Before we can cure an illness, we

231
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,359
have to diagnose it. Please, let's read the Old Testament

232
00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:12,559
and then excize the cancer from our lives. And I

233
00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:16,039
do recommend Dan Barker's book It's called God, The Most

234
00:17:16,279 --> 00:17:22,920
Unpleasant Character in All Fiction. More examples from the Christian

235
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:28,480
Bible about the moral monster, the most unpleasant character in

236
00:17:28,519 --> 00:17:33,359
all fiction. Plenty of your calls and plenty more examples. Next,

237
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:40,839
one thing I want to say here before I go

238
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,839
to the phones is we can't let the New Testament

239
00:17:44,319 --> 00:17:47,920
off the hook. And a lot of people are like, well,

240
00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:52,160
Old Testament hate and death and pain and awfulness. New

241
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,880
Testament is light and love and goodness and charity and

242
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,359
warmth and Kumbai yah, which is a monumentally oversimplified look

243
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,480
at scripture. There are a lot of, I think better

244
00:18:02,559 --> 00:18:06,319
things in the New Testament. But Jesus could be a

245
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,920
total asshole, you know he could. He was a misogynist

246
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,640
the way he treated I think he compared a woman

247
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,240
to a dog. And he told people to abandon their

248
00:18:14,279 --> 00:18:17,359
families without even letting them say goodbye. And he had

249
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,799
all of these things. Plus we're talking about the New

250
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:24,279
Testament where hell is introduced. Doctor David Madison has the

251
00:18:24,319 --> 00:18:28,720
book Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn't taught and other

252
00:18:28,839 --> 00:18:32,079
reasons to question his words. You can find that in

253
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,880
paper and digital and I read the audiobook, but there

254
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,039
is also a whole website where he lists out a

255
00:18:39,039 --> 00:18:43,240
whole bunch of this stuff, bad things Jesus taught dot

256
00:18:43,279 --> 00:18:46,960
com And that's a great resource when you find a happy,

257
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,079
clampy Christian who thinks that Jesus was just to love

258
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,720
the little children and we are all his little children

259
00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,359
kind of person. Jesus was not always a good guy.

260
00:18:58,559 --> 00:19:01,920
What is it that you are bringing to the table.

261
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:03,640
I would like to know. I'm going to talk to

262
00:19:03,799 --> 00:19:07,960
seven one seven. There's no name given, but are you there.

263
00:19:08,839 --> 00:19:12,799
My name is Stephen Steven. We're talking about the God

264
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:14,680
of the Old and New Testament. What do you have

265
00:19:14,759 --> 00:19:15,480
for us, my friend?

266
00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:20,440
Speaker 3: So, I having trouble understanding or accepting how people can

267
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:26,720
still view religion so non critically. And I know that

268
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,559
that you know when you're raised in a particular religion.

269
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,799
I mean I was raised Methodist and then Catholic, and

270
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,000
you know, and I eventually worked my way out, but

271
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,720
my mother also raised me to question everything, which sort

272
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,559
of set me up for disaster when it came to

273
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,759
religion anyway, And I understand there's a difference between following

274
00:19:47,759 --> 00:19:51,039
a particular religion as well as what you want your

275
00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:55,119
belief system to be as being two different things, you know.

276
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,599
I mean, we can look at the Bible, and you know,

277
00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:02,799
I remember very early on being like, who was Cain's wife?

278
00:20:02,839 --> 00:20:05,839
If there were only the four of them, you know, Adam, Eve, Cain,

279
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,759
and Abel, How did Cain and Abel get married? And

280
00:20:08,799 --> 00:20:11,680
where did their wives come from? So that was like

281
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,599
an immediate plot hole for me at six years old.

282
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,920
So I feel like people can be raised in a

283
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,960
religion and taught not to question it in quotes, but

284
00:20:22,039 --> 00:20:25,039
that there have to be things that just scream at

285
00:20:25,079 --> 00:20:28,880
them as being inconsistent or wrong. And how I tie

286
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,799
this to where I am now is, you know, I

287
00:20:31,839 --> 00:20:35,079
have friends who are pastors, and I'm in a same

288
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,920
sex marriage, and I learned last night that this person

289
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,880
that I met randomly who happens to be a pastor,

290
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,240
turned out to be the pastor that my husband had

291
00:20:45,279 --> 00:20:50,160
approached to officiate our ceremony. And he backed out like

292
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,759
two weeks before we got married, and he still feels

293
00:20:53,759 --> 00:20:57,480
guilty about it, and it was whatever issues he was

294
00:20:57,519 --> 00:20:59,200
having with it had to do with you know, the

295
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,480
fact that it was the same sex marriage that he

296
00:21:01,599 --> 00:21:04,000
was officiating, and it was a little too liberal for

297
00:21:04,079 --> 00:21:06,960
him to be able to do. But yet we've been

298
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,039
married a little over a year now. Every time this

299
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,000
pastor bumps into my husband, he's still apologizing for doing that.

300
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,799
So he clearly knows that his position was wrong and

301
00:21:18,319 --> 00:21:21,319
sort of created a little bit of chaos, but not

302
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,839
enough to like change his ways or mend his ways

303
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,480
when it comes to what his religion is telling him

304
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,200
to do. And I'm trying to understand because where I

305
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,160
I you know, my husband told me this last night

306
00:21:33,279 --> 00:21:35,599
actually is when I found out about it, and my

307
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,519
response was, well, good, he should feel guilty because he

308
00:21:39,599 --> 00:21:41,799
was in the wrong, and I'm glad on some level

309
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,200
he knows that, but clearly it's not enough to push

310
00:21:46,279 --> 00:21:48,799
him a little further along. And when I look at

311
00:21:48,839 --> 00:21:52,119
the people in my life who are really religious, who

312
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:54,799
seem to not be getting it, I look at them

313
00:21:54,799 --> 00:21:57,720
and I'm like, you really should know better. I'm hoping

314
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,039
you can speak to this a little bit, because it

315
00:22:00,079 --> 00:22:03,400
really baffles me when I look at somebody in front

316
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:08,079
of me who's clearly intelligent, who's clearly thoughtful, compassionate, a

317
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,160
good person in many other metrics, but as soon as

318
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,839
something comes up against their religion, it's like, oh no,

319
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,079
I can't think outside the book or think outside the box.

320
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,079
I have to go along with what my religion says.

321
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 2: I think this is the dilemma. People are very modular

322
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:30,240
our brands. It's funny how we can be logical here here, here, here, here,

323
00:22:30,319 --> 00:22:32,759
and then have the place in the brain where the

324
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,039
weird shit lives. And it's not just religious people that

325
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:41,440
do this. I've seen people across the color and culture spectrum.

326
00:22:41,759 --> 00:22:45,440
You know, I met atheist flat earthers. Was it Mehdi Hassan?

327
00:22:45,519 --> 00:22:46,039
Who's this?

328
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:46,599
Speaker 4: You know?

329
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,160
Speaker 2: He's not an uneducated guy who hosts his own show,

330
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,839
and he's kind of a global name out there, and

331
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,839
he believes that Muhammad rode to heaven on a winged horse.

332
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,839
What the hell? And I find myself thinking, how do

333
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:00,759
you not see it?

334
00:23:01,279 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's kind of My husband is at the

335
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,240
point now where he's like, do you have to bring

336
00:23:06,279 --> 00:23:10,480
it up? Because I can't just sit there with some stuff.

337
00:23:10,519 --> 00:23:12,599
I used to be a little more tolerant, but you

338
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,640
catch me on a bad day and I'm just like oh, well,

339
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,400
you shut up. I bump into people who have to

340
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,160
throw praise God or praise Jesus every other sentence somewhere

341
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,640
in there to thank them for I don't know that

342
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,400
they found their keys or whatever, and I'm like, just

343
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,000
come on, just stop for a second. Or when they

344
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,359
try to engage me on the fact that I'm in

345
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,640
a same sex marriage and aren't you worried about going

346
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:36,720
to Hell and I'm like, well, not really, because I

347
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,039
don't believe it's there, so you know, and I've been dead,

348
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,880
so you know I can use that as a that too.

349
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,319
Speaker 2: You can't just throw that out you've been dead.

350
00:23:49,279 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I had a heart attack and I had a

351
00:23:52,519 --> 00:23:56,400
near death experience, and I didn't go to Hell, and

352
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,240
I didn't go to Heaven, and I was in a

353
00:23:59,279 --> 00:24:03,440
white room and all the typical descriptions that most NDEs have.

354
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,440
And I also know what happens in your brain when

355
00:24:06,519 --> 00:24:09,279
your brain thinks you're going to die. But the bottom,

356
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,799
I mean, I had a born again Christian tell me

357
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,920
that I didn't really have a near death experience because

358
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,799
I didn't see Jesus. And I said, so, you're critiquing

359
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,720
my near death experience as not aligning with your religions,

360
00:24:22,759 --> 00:24:25,240
so it didn't really happen. And I'm like, I don't

361
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,480
think it works quite that way, but okay, all I

362
00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:31,640
know is that they had to bring me back with paddles,

363
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,920
you know, and I know all the stuff that happens

364
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,559
in your body when you are close to death happened

365
00:24:37,599 --> 00:24:40,279
to me. So you know, I think those are the

366
00:24:40,519 --> 00:24:44,000
qualifying things. Because he was also, well, God brought you back,

367
00:24:44,039 --> 00:24:46,599
and I was like, well, not unless the God's name

368
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,759
is Jerry, because that was the paramedic who shocked me,

369
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,480
you know. So it becomes a whole thing. But when

370
00:24:53,519 --> 00:24:57,640
I say that to a Christian or other ultra religious person,

371
00:24:58,319 --> 00:25:01,640
they don't have anywhere to go because I've had an

372
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,079
experience they haven't had. So I keep that in my

373
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:04,839
back pocket.

374
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:06,799
Speaker 2: Oh God, if I were sitting at the table with you,

375
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,599
I'd be like, all, Hail Jerry, we worship the Jerry.

376
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,079
Let us pass the plates for Jerry.

377
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 3: Exactly exactly.

378
00:25:15,759 --> 00:25:19,759
Speaker 2: Changing minds, I think starts with understanding how belief in

379
00:25:19,799 --> 00:25:23,480
the brain work. And I've become fascinated. I'm preparing a

380
00:25:23,559 --> 00:25:26,480
speech that I'll be giving in late twenty twenty four

381
00:25:26,559 --> 00:25:30,200
and touring with in early twenty twenty five about why

382
00:25:30,279 --> 00:25:33,759
facts don't change minds. I've been having a lot of

383
00:25:33,799 --> 00:25:38,000
conversations with Melanie Teresa King at thinkingspower dot com about

384
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,079
all the times I walked into a room and I

385
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,799
showed them the data, and I opened the Bible and

386
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,720
I pointed at the verses and I said here, here, here,

387
00:25:46,759 --> 00:25:49,359
and here, and then I showed them the overwhelming a

388
00:25:49,319 --> 00:25:53,119
a lance of evidence for evolution here, here, and here,

389
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,599
and all of the prophecies that were not fulfilled, and

390
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:02,119
the contradictions and the immorality, the slavery, the infanticide, the genocide,

391
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,359
thinking yes, once they see it, they'll see it, and

392
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,799
they never saw it. Instead it was fight, flight or freeze.

393
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,759
And there's a reason for that. People approach an ideological

394
00:26:15,799 --> 00:26:18,759
threat in the same way they approach a physical threat.

395
00:26:18,839 --> 00:26:21,559
They will lock down or fight back. And so I

396
00:26:21,599 --> 00:26:25,720
think we have to understand that there is a defense

397
00:26:25,839 --> 00:26:31,000
posture rooted in how they identify. Christianity isn't just a belief,

398
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,319
it's an identity. So if Christianity isn't true, then the

399
00:26:35,319 --> 00:26:39,000
ground beneath their feet just dissolves. And that's terrifying and

400
00:26:39,079 --> 00:26:43,000
it's understandable why it's terrifying when I see somebody in

401
00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:46,079
my circle who says God bless or the Lord brought

402
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,519
us a beautiful day, or any of that stuff. I

403
00:26:48,519 --> 00:26:51,839
don't worry about that. I don't jab them for it,

404
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,960
because that's just going to put him on the defensive.

405
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,799
If somebody says, praise Jesus, the chemo worked, I will

406
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,599
jump in and say, well, let's not forget the physicians

407
00:27:01,599 --> 00:27:07,440
and scientists who were behind the treatments. If someone's coming

408
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,440
after me and they're doing that condescending thing, then I

409
00:27:11,559 --> 00:27:14,839
tend to turn up the temperature. Then my language becomes

410
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,759
a little sharper, and I push back a lot harder.

411
00:27:18,799 --> 00:27:21,079
Speaker 3: And I tend to think that's where I'm at most

412
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,480
of the time. I sound crankier than I really am,

413
00:27:23,559 --> 00:27:25,759
because it's a thing where when I run into a

414
00:27:25,799 --> 00:27:29,119
situation where someone expects me to echo or mirror what

415
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,440
they're saying and I just simply refuse to do.

416
00:27:32,279 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 2: That, doesn't it come down to gauging intent. If someone

417
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,039
says I'll pray for you, and that is how they

418
00:27:38,039 --> 00:27:42,119
have been trained by their culture to express concern, I

419
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,640
don't sweat that. But if someone comes to me and says,

420
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,519
i'll pray for you, as if it's a conversation stopper,

421
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,839
and they're condescending to me because I am one of

422
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,839
the unwashed, hell bound heathen. That's a different kind of

423
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,519
i'll pray for you. It's almost like bless your heart.

424
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,240
If someone's being sincerely kind, Oh yeah, your heart, or

425
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,480
if they're like, bless your heart, which is that that

426
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,079
teeny tiny fuck you that I like to talk about.

427
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,000
I mean, we have to gauge intent, and that determines

428
00:28:09,039 --> 00:28:09,920
how we respond.

429
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,519
Speaker 3: Sure, absolutely, as well as being the idea of saying

430
00:28:14,559 --> 00:28:17,640
grace before a meal, you're forcing me to engage in

431
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,480
this ritual with you, and that's where I'm like, no,

432
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,519
you can go ahead and pray over there if you're

433
00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:24,880
that worried about my cooking, but I don't have to

434
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,400
join in and I'm not stopping you. So be as

435
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,240
respectful of me for not forcing me. And not all

436
00:28:32,319 --> 00:28:34,920
religions do that. So I could be a different religion

437
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,599
and it would be just as rude. You would just

438
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,519
be happier about it if I just happen to be

439
00:28:39,519 --> 00:28:41,440
a different religion in that situation.

440
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,519
Speaker 2: So if they invite us to say grace. I think

441
00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:48,079
we just thank Jerry. Oh, Jerry, we thank you for

442
00:28:48,119 --> 00:28:53,039
this turkey, your mashed potatoes, Jerry, we appreciate your generosity

443
00:28:53,039 --> 00:28:56,680
and grace. All hailed to Jerry. So that's my new

444
00:28:56,759 --> 00:28:57,480
guard for the week.

445
00:28:57,519 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 3: Bro, Jerry.

446
00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 2: Even thanks for calling.

447
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:01,279
Speaker 5: Brother.

448
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,799
Speaker 2: Just keep kicking. And I don't know how to change

449
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,599
minds as much as I think i've in my own life.

450
00:29:06,599 --> 00:29:09,119
I'm going to slow my role. I'm trying to I'm

451
00:29:09,119 --> 00:29:11,920
trying to tap into our shared humanity. I'm trying to

452
00:29:12,119 --> 00:29:16,880
make people feel less attacked unless they're attacking me. But

453
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,240
I don't think there's a magic bullet. So if you

454
00:29:19,319 --> 00:29:20,400
find one, you call us.

455
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 3: Okay, I will do that, Thanks, Seth, take care, Yeah,

456
00:29:23,319 --> 00:29:23,880
see you later.

457
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,079
Speaker 2: It's funny the stuff that is not directed at me.

458
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,079
When I get together in a religious gathering of family

459
00:29:32,119 --> 00:29:35,160
and friends, they never, of course, will ask me to

460
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,359
bless the meal. They know better, and they never ask

461
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,880
me how work is going. I've noticed that much. I'll

462
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,119
go around the table. How are things at the office,

463
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,720
how's your job going as a nurse? Hey, didn't you

464
00:29:47,759 --> 00:29:49,920
get a promotion? Did your office move?

465
00:29:50,079 --> 00:29:50,359
Speaker 4: Wow?

466
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,799
Speaker 2: What's that like? Are you working from home fantastic and

467
00:29:53,839 --> 00:29:58,000
they just skip me, seth, how is work? Knowing that

468
00:29:58,079 --> 00:30:01,680
my work is an atheist tackctivist. I am a full

469
00:30:01,839 --> 00:30:06,920
time atheist activist. Nobody asks me how work is going,

470
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,480
and I just find that interesting because I'd like him

471
00:30:09,519 --> 00:30:14,440
to ask again. Getting back to the most unpleasant character

472
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:20,359
in all of fiction, here's one in the Book of Leviticus.

473
00:30:20,599 --> 00:30:23,279
Did you know that the God of the Old Testament

474
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:28,400
certainly wouldn't let people approach him in his holiness unless

475
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,799
they qualified for the cover of People magazine, Like you

476
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,759
have to be beautiful in order to approach God? How

477
00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:40,519
freaking shallow is this verse? Leviticus, Chapter twenty one, verses

478
00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:45,039
eighteen through twenty one. For whatsoever man he be that

479
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:50,039
hath a blemish, he shall not approach a blind man,

480
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,759
or a lame or he that hath a flat nose,

481
00:30:55,279 --> 00:30:59,200
or anything superfluous, or a man that is broken footed,

482
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,799
or broken handed, or crooked backed, or a dwarf, or

483
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,839
that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy

484
00:31:08,039 --> 00:31:11,880
or scabbed, or hath his stones broken by the way

485
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,599
stones testicles. So if you have broken balls, you screwed.

486
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,079
You can't go and talk to God. No man that

487
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,240
hath the blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest

488
00:31:21,559 --> 00:31:24,880
shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord

489
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,759
made by fire. He hath a blemish, he shall not

490
00:31:29,359 --> 00:31:35,839
come nigh to offer the bread of his God. Anytime

491
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,839
you hear Christians talk about the God of the Bible

492
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,400
being this all accepting, come as you are Deity, just

493
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,039
pull up Leviticus chapter twenty one, verses eighteen through twenty

494
00:31:46,079 --> 00:31:48,920
one and say, okay, well, I hope you don't have

495
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,839
a flat nose, a crooked back, or crushed balls because

496
00:31:53,839 --> 00:31:57,039
you're screwed not able to go talk to God according

497
00:31:57,119 --> 00:32:05,400
to the Old Testaments. I've got two to nine, is it? Scott? Scott,

498
00:32:05,799 --> 00:32:07,599
thanks for calling. What do you want to talk about?

499
00:32:09,559 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 4: Trying to just understand trump Ism? You think I would

500
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:16,920
be used to it by now, but I just can't

501
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:21,000
grasp how people in my circle still follow the man.

502
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 2: Who's in your circle. What are we talking about.

503
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 4: I have family members, I have neighbors. I live in Utah.

504
00:32:28,839 --> 00:32:31,640
I have a Mormon neighbor that flies his flag daily

505
00:32:32,519 --> 00:32:36,359
and wants to preach about Trump and just worships the

506
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,599
man and I used to be kind to her, but

507
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,200
I do not hold any punches anymore. It's been long enough.

508
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,799
I constantly remind her about how he likes to physically

509
00:32:46,839 --> 00:32:52,359
assault women, allegations of child abuse and sexual assault and

510
00:32:52,559 --> 00:32:56,839
criminal and she just she's got excuses for everything. I'm

511
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,000
just constantly reminding her. I said, an, you know, the

512
00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:03,359
man's a convicted I said, He's been found primarily liabel

513
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,599
to as assaulting women, and he's bagged about assaulting women.

514
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:12,200
And these people just have excuses, and I just struggle.

515
00:33:12,559 --> 00:33:15,400
It's time to understand it. I should be used to

516
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:16,440
it by now, but I'm not.

517
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,839
Speaker 2: Oh you know, I hope we never get used to it. Scott.

518
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,880
You know that's the key. We cannot get used to it.

519
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,799
I mean, how much of this insanity has been normalized?

520
00:33:26,839 --> 00:33:30,720
Have you noticed that whenever we see the craziest thing

521
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,759
in the headlines, we have become so numb. There's so

522
00:33:33,839 --> 00:33:37,599
much scar tissue that these days we barely blink. We're

523
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,039
ten years ago it might have been a huge deal,

524
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,039
and now we're like, oh shit, you know, there is

525
00:33:43,079 --> 00:33:47,640
no bottom. Stephen Hassen is a cult expert. He's an

526
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,160
ex mooney. He was part of the Mooney cult, and

527
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,920
he busted out and he wrote a book called The

528
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:58,160
Cult of Trump. And it is interesting to see that

529
00:33:58,279 --> 00:34:01,720
people do to Trump that they do to their gods

530
00:34:02,279 --> 00:34:08,000
and their cult leaders. They have removed their individual identity

531
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:13,559
or latched it, welded it, melded it into the identity

532
00:34:13,679 --> 00:34:18,079
of the leader and the culture, which is maga. And

533
00:34:18,119 --> 00:34:21,920
then whatever he says goes. If he wants to eliminate

534
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,679
the constitution, hey, you know he's the one in charge,

535
00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:27,719
He's the dear leader. If he wants to go and

536
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,119
fire half the government and eliminate the Department of Education

537
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,599
and put his hands on women and declare war on

538
00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:37,440
whoever it rubs him the wrong way, well you know

539
00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:40,119
he's the dear leader. Will follow his lead. It's an

540
00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:43,920
absolute surrender, and it is very much a cult model.

541
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:50,119
It is a thought stopping culture. I share your frustration

542
00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:53,719
because I think if you and I had behave one

543
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,880
to one hundredth of the way that Donald Trump had

544
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:01,719
behaved toward anybody in everybody be cast off by the

545
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:03,280
people in our own communities.

546
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:09,199
Speaker 4: Right absolutely. I have an older brother that our whole life,

547
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,840
I've always we've always gotten along We've never had an

548
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,719
unkind word to say with each other, and because of Trump,

549
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,840
we don't speak. We have it spoke since January sixth,

550
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,960
and it's all because of Trump. He has a girlfriend.

551
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,199
I was in his living room. They had Fox News

552
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,280
on and Trump was on, and she kissed the TV

553
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,960
and I was disgusted, and they I have the problem.

554
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,559
Speaker 2: I think it was doctor Hector Garcia who had written

555
00:35:42,599 --> 00:35:46,320
about how I'm going to take it in the teeth

556
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,760
for this. But among political conservatives globally, not just in

557
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:55,400
the United States, there is more of a gravitation toward authoritarianism,

558
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,239
tribes and tribal symbols, which is why we didn't see

559
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,639
a Biden flag everywhere. I mean we see some, we

560
00:36:03,679 --> 00:36:06,559
saw some. We're seeing some Kamala stuff out there, but

561
00:36:06,639 --> 00:36:11,360
we're not seeing a truck drive by with twelve Commala

562
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,760
flags on it the way we've seen it with Trump.

563
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,679
I mean, there is a utility of tribal symbols. The

564
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,880
American flag is a tribal symbol. Waving the gun is

565
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:26,519
a tribal symbol, the red hat is a tribal symbol.

566
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,039
And I think these are very much things that political

567
00:36:30,079 --> 00:36:33,239
conservatives rally around, you know, they make them part of

568
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,440
the club. They become their identity, and that takes us

569
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,159
back to identity beliefs, and we can all be guilty

570
00:36:39,199 --> 00:36:41,599
to a degree. But I've never seen anything like it

571
00:36:42,079 --> 00:36:44,800
in this country like I've seen with Maget culture. And

572
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,119
I grieve. I grieve that it's cost you relationships. It's

573
00:36:48,159 --> 00:36:51,079
made relationships difficult for a great many people. I've heard

574
00:36:51,119 --> 00:36:54,679
it as ended marriages, spouses, you know, on both sides

575
00:36:54,679 --> 00:36:58,639
of the political spectrum. It became a conversation about values.

576
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,679
They just couldn't share the same space because they didn't

577
00:37:01,679 --> 00:37:03,199
live in the same world.

578
00:37:03,039 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 4: Right, you talk about in the marriage I divorced my

579
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,480
life in twenty sixteen. There was a lot behind that,

580
00:37:12,159 --> 00:37:16,679
not politically related, but it was the political aspect of

581
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,679
it that drew the final straw with me.

582
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:24,119
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know now. I don't understand how people

583
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,079
who are banging the Bible and doing that moral chest

584
00:37:28,199 --> 00:37:32,119
thumping can embrace the worst of us. Yeah, And all

585
00:37:32,159 --> 00:37:34,760
I can say is I share your frustration, and I

586
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,239
look ahead to November and I think, please let sanity return.

587
00:37:39,159 --> 00:37:43,719
And so you and I will watch the calendar and anticipate,

588
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,280
hopefully something good, Scott, I mean, do you have any optimism.

589
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 4: I'm really feeling good about Kamala and yeah, I'm feeling

590
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:53,920
good about this election.

591
00:37:54,679 --> 00:37:57,079
Speaker 2: Well, I'm sorry about your brother, but I'm so glad

592
00:37:57,119 --> 00:37:59,760
you're here. I'm glad you're called. And let's try to

593
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,880
mean pain some hope, but more than that, let's maintain

594
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:07,199
momentum and keep working. Okay, absolutely, all right, be safe,

595
00:38:07,199 --> 00:38:10,800
We'll see you. What's that book? It's called Why Smart

596
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:16,840
People Believe Dumb Things. There's this myth that intelligent people

597
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,840
can't adopt and embrace and protect stupid ideas. That's ridiculous.

598
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,960
Intelligent people can often have some of the worst ideas,

599
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,320
and they can be the most clever at trying to

600
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,079
rationalize those ideas. I get sick and tired of the

601
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,159
meme verse saying that everybody is just it's all about

602
00:38:36,159 --> 00:38:39,960
IQ or mental illness. I'm thinking of doing a speech

603
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,199
maybe in the next year or two, about some of

604
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,719
the worst atheist arguments I have seen. I know I'm

605
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:49,599
going to become a target. I'm going to paint a

606
00:38:49,599 --> 00:38:54,440
big bull's eye on me if I do that, because yeah,

607
00:38:54,559 --> 00:38:58,559
it was Seth is just tone policing. And I'm like,

608
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:03,119
shut up. Yeah, I'd like to think after fifteen years

609
00:39:03,159 --> 00:39:06,199
on the front lines of the movement, having these conversations

610
00:39:06,199 --> 00:39:09,159
on an hour by hour basis, seeing what does and

611
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:13,559
does not work, I qualify to offer a perspective on

612
00:39:13,679 --> 00:39:17,119
what does and does not work, what is and is

613
00:39:17,199 --> 00:39:19,119
not a good argument. You can take it, you can

614
00:39:19,199 --> 00:39:22,360
leave it. But I'm not tone policing by saying that

615
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,639
religion is not a mental illness. It's just a bad argument.

616
00:39:27,079 --> 00:39:30,719
It's just stupid. There's one I saw the other day

617
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,199
where people walked into a church and the usher was

618
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,800
taking their brain at the door. Oh you're walking into church,

619
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,079
you won't be needing this, and they take the religious

620
00:39:43,159 --> 00:39:45,719
brain out of their head or something. It's just dumb,

621
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:50,559
it's superior, it's not helpful, and it's I think betrays

622
00:39:51,159 --> 00:39:57,519
the fact that thinking people can have bad ideas. Reasoning

623
00:39:57,599 --> 00:40:01,920
people can have bad re But it doesn't mean that

624
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,360
they are not intelligent. It doesn't mean they're not thinking.

625
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,800
They might just be having wrong think. And that's a

626
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,159
different conversation. I'm thinking about doing a whole speech on it,

627
00:40:13,199 --> 00:40:16,119
and I'm sure people are going to come after me.

628
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,320
Seth Andrews. Thanks to you. People should all do it

629
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:26,280
his way. Blah blah blah. Leviticus chapter twelve has another

630
00:40:26,559 --> 00:40:31,119
ditty for us. But if she bear a made child,

631
00:40:32,039 --> 00:40:36,760
m aid made child, then she shall be unclean two

632
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,280
weeks as in her separation, and she shall continue in

633
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:46,679
the blood of her purifying three score and six days.

634
00:40:47,559 --> 00:40:49,760
You know the Bible has that verse. I'm doing this

635
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:54,159
one from memory where a menstruating woman was banished from

636
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,639
her community for a week. I mean, they're weird about

637
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,039
periods in the Bible. Just kick her out of the

638
00:41:01,079 --> 00:41:07,199
town for I think seven days, seven days mark Chapter twelve,

639
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,199
Verse nineteen. Master Moses wrote, undo us, if a man's

640
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,800
brother die, then leave his wife behind him and leave

641
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,880
no children. That his brother should take his wife and

642
00:41:19,119 --> 00:41:23,559
raise up seed unto his brother.

643
00:41:24,159 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 5: Ah.

644
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of happing. Thanks with your brother's

645
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,000
wife and the Bible. I'm just saying, And we didn't

646
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,199
put it there, We're just revealing that it is there.

647
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,840
We've got more calls more to talk about. And I'm

648
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,119
going to play a segment from my book Deconverted on

649
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:47,800
atrocities and horrors in the Bible and the day or

650
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,760
days that I first discovered them. That's coming up next,

651
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:05,519
continuing our conversation about the moral monster Downelle at nine

652
00:42:05,639 --> 00:42:09,360
one eight. That's my home turf. You're in the Tulsa area,

653
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,400
I am, what's on your mind?

654
00:42:13,119 --> 00:42:15,679
Speaker 6: The guy called in was talking about how he had

655
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,719
a near death experience. I've had one too, and it

656
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,920
was at home. No doctors, no medication, anything like that.

657
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,480
And I was wondering, as an atheist, how do you

658
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:29,639
view a near death experience?

659
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 2: We understand that for many people that moment when the

660
00:42:35,639 --> 00:42:41,320
brain is deprived of oxygen, that's something called hypoxia happens,

661
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,679
and this taps into memory and imagination. The brain sort

662
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,440
of hyperactivates in a way, and so that explains the

663
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,159
white lights, the memories of Grandma, et cetera. There are

664
00:42:54,199 --> 00:42:56,440
some people who come up with the story that, well,

665
00:42:57,159 --> 00:43:00,000
you know, I had a near death or post death experience.

666
00:43:00,199 --> 00:43:02,039
I was on the table for three minutes and I

667
00:43:02,119 --> 00:43:05,360
floated above my own body, and I heard exactly what

668
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,239
the doctor said. And I couldn't have known that because

669
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,000
I was dead. Yeah, but I mean, what do I

670
00:43:13,039 --> 00:43:16,920
do with an anecdote like that? You know, and if

671
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,840
we see many people saying the same types of thing.

672
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,840
It's interesting, but the plural of anecdote is not evidence.

673
00:43:24,199 --> 00:43:26,880
I am curious, though. Tell me your story. You were

674
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:27,800
dead on the table.

675
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,519
Speaker 6: I was in my bed. I had an affection. I

676
00:43:31,639 --> 00:43:35,960
become sepsist, and I tried to wake my ex husband up.

677
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,559
He told me to go back to sleep cause I

678
00:43:37,599 --> 00:43:41,639
was hurting and everything. Everything went black, and I felt

679
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,559
my self jerk out of myself, and I saw myself

680
00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:48,639
looking down at my ex husband and my son in

681
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,800
his crib beside my bed, and I was going up

682
00:43:52,519 --> 00:43:55,320
and I'm like, what is this? And I went through

683
00:43:55,920 --> 00:44:01,400
like black, and so I'm going up through black, and

684
00:44:01,559 --> 00:44:06,000
all of a sudden, I see a white It's beautiful.

685
00:44:06,199 --> 00:44:09,599
I'm not scared of dying, you know. It was beautiful

686
00:44:09,639 --> 00:44:14,760
as golden and white, and it felt peaceful and loving.

687
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,960
And I said, God, not right now. My son need

688
00:44:19,039 --> 00:44:22,960
to me, Please God, not right now. And I hit

689
00:44:23,039 --> 00:44:28,000
my body. I felt myself hitting my body, and I

690
00:44:28,079 --> 00:44:31,079
woke up and I was able to crawl across the

691
00:44:31,119 --> 00:44:32,519
floor and call for help.

692
00:44:33,599 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 2: So let's say that I had taken a hallucinogenic, that

693
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,840
it affected my brain, be it lack of oxygen or

694
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,199
just causing the synapses to fire in funky ways. And

695
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,599
I had a dream that I was flying in a

696
00:44:47,679 --> 00:44:51,079
kaleidoscope of color, and I saw all the people in

697
00:44:51,119 --> 00:44:53,360
my life who have already died and passed on, and

698
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,400
they welcomed me, and we all hugged and reassured each other,

699
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,840
and then I felt myself slammed back into my phys form.

700
00:45:01,559 --> 00:45:03,599
What would you do with that? If I, you know,

701
00:45:03,639 --> 00:45:06,719
I'd taken a substance that had produced a story like that,

702
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:08,920
would you feel like it actually happened? Do you think

703
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:13,079
my mind was just kind of a playground that made

704
00:45:13,079 --> 00:45:14,440
it feel like it happened.

705
00:45:15,679 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 6: From what I'd gather, hallucinogenics make your brain bleed, so

706
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:24,199
I would view it as that. I don't think taking

707
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,239
anything can make you have a godly experience or anything

708
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:28,639
like that.

709
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,199
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, hallucinogenics make your brain bleed. I'm not

710
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:33,199
sure that's accurate.

711
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:38,199
Speaker 6: Yes, from what I gether whenever I was in school,

712
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,079
something about the brain detaching from the side of your

713
00:45:42,079 --> 00:45:44,239
skull or something like that, and it causes your brain

714
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:44,679
to bleed.

715
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:47,559
Speaker 2: I'm going to have to do a little peer review

716
00:45:47,599 --> 00:45:50,760
on that one. I don't think that's I'd not convinced

717
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,440
that that's correct. But how do you know that it

718
00:45:53,519 --> 00:45:56,480
was God? I mean, you mentioned the word God. Was

719
00:45:56,519 --> 00:45:58,519
it God that was part of your NDE?

720
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,519
Speaker 6: I don't no, see, I do not believe in a

721
00:46:02,679 --> 00:46:07,199
Christian God or any god of any religion. I think

722
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:12,559
if that was God, God is an energy maybe that

723
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,119
we go back to. Does that make sense? I don't

724
00:46:16,159 --> 00:46:20,719
believe in an all knowing, powerful God that strikes us

725
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,400
and puts us on hill and all that stuff. I

726
00:46:23,559 --> 00:46:29,159
just think if that was God, God, this energy or

727
00:46:29,199 --> 00:46:33,639
this life that we all go back to, well.

728
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,519
Speaker 2: I would like to see some evidence for that. But

729
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:43,079
knowing that the brain tends to fire in unique ways

730
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,559
when we are in moments of trauma or oxygen deprivation

731
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,840
makes me skeptical that we have tapped into a supernatural membrane.

732
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,719
The day somebody is able to demonstrate that, I would

733
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,719
be insanely curious. I would like to know that. But

734
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,880
I appreciate you telling me your story. I'm glad you're okay.

735
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,599
I'm glad you came back to life. I'm glad you're

736
00:47:04,639 --> 00:47:07,360
still with us. You know that's huge. So that's the

737
00:47:07,519 --> 00:47:10,440
I think that's the headline donell you know you didn't

738
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:11,199
die that day.

739
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,599
Speaker 6: Now, Well, thank you for answering my question.

740
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 2: I don't know that it was an answer, I think

741
00:47:18,119 --> 00:47:23,920
more than anything else, anecdotes they're interesting, but they're not evidence.

742
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,400
I think we have to keep digging, and so you

743
00:47:26,519 --> 00:47:28,480
do it. I do it. We'll see what happens. Okay,

744
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:33,400
thank you, all right, see you later, Steven. Are you

745
00:47:33,519 --> 00:47:35,280
with me? Yes?

746
00:47:35,639 --> 00:47:39,079
Speaker 5: Your audio is terrible, but I can't understand what you're saying.

747
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:41,719
First of all, I must say it says that I'm

748
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,079
a great, big fan, read your books, I like your show.

749
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,199
And I only say that because I don't want you

750
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,840
to think that I'm deliberately trying to shut anything down.

751
00:47:51,519 --> 00:47:54,079
You had made a comment earlier, which is very common

752
00:47:54,119 --> 00:47:57,679
in Athis circles, that Jesus said this or did this,

753
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,639
and God said this and did this and testament of

754
00:48:00,679 --> 00:48:04,920
the other. And I am much more of a skeptic

755
00:48:05,039 --> 00:48:09,079
perhaps than you are, because I don't think that God

756
00:48:09,199 --> 00:48:11,199
said any of those things. I don't think Jesus said

757
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,199
those things. If they did, we have little evilents if

758
00:48:14,199 --> 00:48:17,519
none about that. What we do have evidence of is

759
00:48:17,559 --> 00:48:21,519
a scribe who wrote down something. Maybe they heard it.

760
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,599
Maybe they invented it, maybe they it was done some

761
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:28,960
whole cloth. I don't know. But I take a bit

762
00:48:29,119 --> 00:48:32,360
issue when you say that Jesus said something, God said something.

763
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,920
All I know is that a scribe, an anonymous scribe,

764
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,360
Yet two thousand and more years ago, said something and

765
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:41,880
we now are reading it.

766
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 2: Stephen, do you genuinely believe that I think that a

767
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,039
deity wrote those things. I'm essentially just saying what the

768
00:48:49,039 --> 00:48:52,639
Bible says. It says, but it's not because I believe it. So,

769
00:48:53,199 --> 00:48:56,320
I mean, you might call me a poor skeptic, but

770
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,440
I don't. I mean, the title of my channel is

771
00:48:59,639 --> 00:49:04,159
a right. The thinking atheist is sort of the brand

772
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,000
that we use. I don't believe in any god anywhere.

773
00:49:07,039 --> 00:49:07,880
Does that make sense?

774
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,199
Speaker 5: Yes, and I certainly agree with you. I'm only objecting

775
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:16,039
slightly to comments that many people make, many atheists make.

776
00:49:16,119 --> 00:49:19,039
But God said this, and Jesus walked from the garden.

777
00:49:19,159 --> 00:49:21,400
We don't know any of that stuff, and I don't

778
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,320
think that's emphasized pufficiently. That's on my only point.

779
00:49:24,599 --> 00:49:28,760
Speaker 2: Okay, you think atheists genuinely believe God walked in the garden, No,

780
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,360
they're I think reciting the stories. It's like if I

781
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,400
was talking about Lord of the Rings and I said

782
00:49:34,519 --> 00:49:39,400
Gandal was speaking to Frodo. Doesn't mean I believe in Gandal.

783
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,039
But we are talking about the narrative of the story,

784
00:49:43,199 --> 00:49:46,679
so we can address the words that claims the actions

785
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:50,079
within that story. We're giving the context and the characters,

786
00:49:50,079 --> 00:49:53,320
but it doesn't mean we believe in those fictional characters.

787
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:54,400
That's fair, isn't it.

788
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 5: That's fair, and I agree with you. I don't think

789
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,519
we have any dispute at all those points. I just

790
00:50:00,559 --> 00:50:04,679
feel that someone calling in or tuning into the show

791
00:50:05,679 --> 00:50:08,960
might be misled because they hear you saying or any

792
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:12,239
other raceus saying the things that I find it out

793
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:13,039
as an example.

794
00:50:14,039 --> 00:50:17,199
Speaker 2: Okay, well I'll keep that in mind moving forward. Man,

795
00:50:17,199 --> 00:50:18,159
I appreciate your call.

796
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 5: Thank you, Okay, thank you for talking to me.

797
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 2: You are most welcome. Thanks for your perspective. When I

798
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,400
say Yahweh said this, When I say Jesus said that

799
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:34,159
Moses went to liberate the Israelites, Gionah was inside the

800
00:50:34,159 --> 00:50:38,679
belly of the big fish, John wrote the Book of Revelation, etc.

801
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:40,920
Do you think I do I come across as someone

802
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:47,400
who literally believes those things. Am I misrepresenting I don't

803
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,320
think so. By the way, got a message in from

804
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,679
Downell who called just a few minutes to go to

805
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,320
the show. I saw this. She said, I'm the one

806
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:59,280
from Tulsa that ask about the near death experience. I've

807
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:05,079
been googling hypoxia and sepsis. I think you're right. I

808
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:07,599
thank you. I've always wondered about that. I think it

809
00:51:07,599 --> 00:51:12,280
would explain why people experience almost the same thing. So

810
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:14,960
I think we got a correction on the whole brain

811
00:51:15,159 --> 00:51:21,000
bleed LSD thing and hypoxia and sepsis. At least that's

812
00:51:21,039 --> 00:51:23,360
how I read that. So Donell, thanks for the call

813
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:28,199
and thanks for the clarification. Years ago, I told the

814
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:33,320
story of my deconstruction and deconversion in a book, and

815
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:37,519
I did a whole chapter on the moral monster, and

816
00:51:37,559 --> 00:51:40,559
I really like the way I said it way back then,

817
00:51:40,679 --> 00:51:43,159
so I'm just going to plague you the chapter again

818
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:53,039
in just a second. Hang On. I was just a

819
00:51:53,079 --> 00:51:57,159
few years out of my religious days, and I wanted

820
00:51:57,199 --> 00:51:59,800
to chronicle my story for two reasons. I wanted to

821
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,039
talk talk about my own journey while it was still

822
00:52:02,079 --> 00:52:05,800
fresh in my mind, but also encourage other people who

823
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,719
might be trying to understand or maybe navigating doubts of

824
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,320
their own. And so I wrote a book. It released

825
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:17,119
in December of twenty twelve. It's called D Converted, the

826
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,760
Journey from Religion to Reason. And I got to the

827
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:23,880
point in the story where I was talking about going

828
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,000
back to Genesis one one and reading the whole Bible

829
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:32,079
objectively or more objectively for the first time, and I

830
00:52:32,119 --> 00:52:35,480
got what I called scripture shock. Maybe you know what

831
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,480
this is like when you don't have the rose colored

832
00:52:38,519 --> 00:52:41,679
godglasses on, you read the Bible and you're like, oh,

833
00:52:41,679 --> 00:52:44,280
wait a minute, Wait a minute, is that it? Wait

834
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:48,480
a minute, Ah, that's crazy, that's horrifying, it's offensive, it's

835
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,480
im moral, it's it's right in front of me, and

836
00:52:51,559 --> 00:52:53,960
it has been the whole time. So I had that epiphany,

837
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,360
and chapter eleven of D Converted sort of chronicles a

838
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,519
few of the things that jumped off the page and

839
00:53:00,599 --> 00:53:03,480
slap me in the face. And so, you know, if

840
00:53:03,519 --> 00:53:07,320
you've heard this, my apologies if I'm being redundant. I

841
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,719
know a lot of people like the way it's laid out,

842
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,360
because it is an assembling of bullet points for people

843
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,159
who say that God is always good, all the time anyway.

844
00:53:16,519 --> 00:53:20,920
Chapter eleven of Deconverted will be the last segments of

845
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:21,960
our show today.

846
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 1: Teaching hatred to children could be the gravest offense to

847
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:35,159
our species. Kujill, Cincinnati, Ohio.

848
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 2: Chapter eleven, The Edge of the Sword. The God of

849
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:46,599
the Bible endorses rape no kidding. Within the pages of

850
00:53:46,679 --> 00:53:53,440
Christian scripture, God Yahweh, Elohim, el Shadai, yeshiwa Jehovah, Jirah,

851
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:57,760
the Alpha and the Omega condoned and sometimes even instructed

852
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:02,159
the kidnapping and sexual assault of women. As a child,

853
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,000
I had heard a dozen times the account of Lot

854
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:09,719
Genesis nineteen, verses fifteen through twenty three. A righteous man

855
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:13,559
was saved from the destruction of the wicked city of Sodom.

856
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:17,239
His wife turned into a pillar of salt for disobediently

857
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:21,719
turning around to look. This story was classic Sunday School fodder.

858
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:28,039
Man was wicked, God was merciful, Obedience was rewarded, disobedience

859
00:54:28,159 --> 00:54:33,199
was punished. Justice was done. Meanwhile, hidden in plain sight.

860
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:37,840
A few verses earlier, Lot God's righteous servant had offered

861
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:41,400
to protect his angel guests by offering up his own

862
00:54:41,519 --> 00:54:46,119
virgin daughters to be raped by a crazed mob Genesis

863
00:54:46,199 --> 00:54:49,920
nineteen six through eight. Lot went outside to meet them

864
00:54:50,159 --> 00:54:53,679
the mob, and shut the door behind him and said, no,

865
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:57,960
my friends, don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have

866
00:54:58,079 --> 00:55:01,199
two daughters who have never slept the man. Let me

867
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:03,639
bring them out to you, and you can do what

868
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:07,039
you like with them. But don't do anything to these men,

869
00:55:07,559 --> 00:55:10,800
for they have come under the protection of my roof.

870
00:55:11,559 --> 00:55:17,400
How exactly does take my daughters their virgins constitute righteousness?

871
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:22,239
Can you imagine any moral father saying something so obscene?

872
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,320
Wouldn't you, as a parent, throw yourself between your own

873
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:29,039
children and harm, even at the cost of your own life.

874
00:55:29,199 --> 00:55:32,360
A frothing mob pounds at your door for the purpose

875
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:35,840
of sexual violence, and you flame your daughters into the

876
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:40,960
firing line like skeet. Meanwhile, as Lot was indeed rescued

877
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:45,280
and rewarded after this revolting display, his wife was struck

878
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:48,880
down by God for the heinous crime of looking over

879
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:53,679
his shoulder. The story gets even better. Lot's daughters got

880
00:55:53,679 --> 00:55:57,800
their father liquored up Genesis nineteen thirty four so they

881
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:02,239
could take turns having sex with him. To quote preserve

882
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:06,599
our family line through our father. Well, of course, when

883
00:56:06,639 --> 00:56:10,199
you have baby fever and there are no male prospects

884
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:14,199
in the immediate area, it's perfectly acceptable to date rape

885
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:18,159
your own parent. God offered no word of protest over

886
00:56:18,159 --> 00:56:22,559
this incestuous rendezvous. Perhaps he was still fuming about those

887
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:27,039
icky homosexuals back in Sodom in Numbers chapter thirty one,

888
00:56:27,119 --> 00:56:31,119
verses seventeen and eighteen. God continued his promotion of sexual

889
00:56:31,199 --> 00:56:34,719
violence by instructing Moses to kill all of the male

890
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:39,400
Midianite children and quote, kill every woman who has slept

891
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,519
with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who

892
00:56:43,559 --> 00:56:48,440
has never slept with a man. Save the virgins for yourselves. Really,

893
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:53,480
Apologists insists that the soldiers bore no malice nor intended

894
00:56:53,519 --> 00:56:57,400
any violence to these teenage girls, also shrugging off the

895
00:56:57,519 --> 00:57:02,760
kidnapping angle and lauding God's merd for sparing lives. I mean,

896
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,079
I suppose you can talk yourself into believing that the

897
00:57:05,159 --> 00:57:10,440
kidnappers blessed the abductees with joyous lives of equality and

898
00:57:10,519 --> 00:57:13,920
freedom free from strife. But you'd have to be hitting

899
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:18,559
the mescalin pretty hard. Deuteronomy chapter twenty, verses thirteen and

900
00:57:18,599 --> 00:57:22,000
fourteen had God laying out the rules for battle, instructing

901
00:57:22,039 --> 00:57:26,000
the slaughter of all the men, women, children, livestock, and

902
00:57:26,119 --> 00:57:31,639
possessions could be taken as plunder for yourselves. The following

903
00:57:31,719 --> 00:57:35,599
chapter encourage the taking of enemy women as wives if

904
00:57:35,639 --> 00:57:40,320
a soldier was attracted to her, complete with Yahweh's direction

905
00:57:40,519 --> 00:57:44,519
to shave her head, trim her nails, and put aside

906
00:57:44,559 --> 00:57:48,599
the clothes she was wearing when captured. Deuteronomy twenty one,

907
00:57:48,679 --> 00:57:53,599
Verses twelve and thirteen. Nice kidnap her, alter her appearance,

908
00:57:53,719 --> 00:57:56,840
and claim her. Not happy with the woman that you

909
00:57:57,039 --> 00:58:01,039
just abducted after slaughtering her previous husband, and no problem,

910
00:58:01,239 --> 00:58:05,400
just release her like a stray cat. The list goes

911
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:09,360
on and on. Rape victims actually received a death sentence

912
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:13,159
in Deuteronomy twenty two, twenty three, and twenty four punishment

913
00:58:13,239 --> 00:58:16,800
because they did not scream for help. The twenty eighth

914
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:21,719
chapter instructed that a rape victim must marry the rapist,

915
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,360
with the rapist paying fifty silver pieces to the father

916
00:58:25,519 --> 00:58:30,480
is compensation. Second Samuel twelve eleven and twelve had Yahweh

917
00:58:30,519 --> 00:58:34,960
hand delivering wives to other men to be raped, saying quote,

918
00:58:35,119 --> 00:58:38,320
this is what the Lord says out of your own household.

919
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:42,320
I'm going to bring calamity on you before your very eyes.

920
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:44,840
I will take your wives and give them to one

921
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:47,519
who is close to you, and he will sleep with

922
00:58:47,559 --> 00:58:53,280
your wives in broad daylight. Zachariah fourteen announced that a

923
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,559
day of the Lord is coming Jerusalem, when your possessions

924
00:58:56,639 --> 00:58:59,840
will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

925
00:59:00,159 --> 00:59:03,000
I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight

926
00:59:03,039 --> 00:59:07,039
against it. The city will be captured, the houses ransacked,

927
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:12,159
and the women raped. Throughout scripture, women were burned alive

928
00:59:12,519 --> 00:59:17,039
Leviticus twenty one. They had their limbs hacked off Deuteronomy

929
00:59:17,079 --> 00:59:21,280
twenty five, eleven and twelve. They were shunned as unclean

930
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:25,840
Leviticus twelve five, and were relegated to the shadows of

931
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:30,840
the man's authority. For Timothy II eleven through fourteen, these

932
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:34,440
women who weren't branded as whorees and harlots were given

933
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:39,000
strict instructions to shut up, remain submissive, and know their

934
00:59:39,039 --> 00:59:42,239
place in the pecking order. For his Corinthians eleven eight

935
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:45,079
and nine said, for man did not come from woman,

936
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:49,400
but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman,

937
00:59:49,599 --> 00:59:53,559
but woman for men. I'm ashamed to admit that these

938
00:59:53,599 --> 00:59:57,000
passages were new to me. I had been baptized in

939
00:59:57,079 --> 01:00:01,239
the gooey poetry of Ephesians five twenty five, where husbands

940
01:00:01,239 --> 01:00:05,079
were instructed to love their wives as Christ loved the church.

941
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,440
One Corinthians thirteen. The Love Chapter had been recited at

942
01:00:09,559 --> 01:00:14,760
countless weddings and Valentine's Day church functions, punctuating the misty

943
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:18,360
eyed romance of it all with the climactic thirteenth verse.

944
01:00:18,719 --> 01:00:22,559
And now these three remain faith, hope, and love. But

945
01:00:22,679 --> 01:00:27,239
the greatest of these is love. Somehow, my pastors and

946
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:31,079
teachers had neglected to teach us about God's evil twin,

947
01:00:31,719 --> 01:00:35,960
the sexually obsessed executioner, who regarded women as the mere

948
01:00:36,039 --> 01:00:41,320
spoils of war, objects to be plundered, second class, and expendable.

949
01:00:42,119 --> 01:00:45,480
And those passages were the tip of the iceberg. God's

950
01:00:45,519 --> 01:00:49,360
contempt spread well beyond women, to anyone who rankled his

951
01:00:49,519 --> 01:00:54,159
petty sensibilities. Reading the verses of scripture without a deferential filter,

952
01:00:54,719 --> 01:00:59,079
I discovered example after example of a bloodthirsty and murderous

953
01:00:59,159 --> 01:01:02,880
dictator Exodus thirty two to twenty seven. After seeing the

954
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:07,039
golden calf, God commanded the Levites. Each man strap a

955
01:01:07,079 --> 01:01:09,800
sword to his side, go back and forth through the

956
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:12,719
camp from one end to the other, each killing his

957
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:17,960
brother and friend and neighbor. Three thousand were slaughtered, and

958
01:01:18,039 --> 01:01:22,519
God was pleased. Numbers, Chapter fifteen, verses thirty two through

959
01:01:22,559 --> 01:01:26,079
thirty six. A man gathered sticks for a fire on

960
01:01:26,159 --> 01:01:29,920
the Sabbath. By God's command, he was stoned to death.

961
01:01:30,519 --> 01:01:34,960
Number sixteen twenty seven through thirty three. The men were rebellious,

962
01:01:35,239 --> 01:01:38,440
so God caused the earth to open and swallow up

963
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:42,440
the men, wives, and children. Numbers twenty five nine. A

964
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:47,599
plague from God killed twenty four thousand Judges seven nineteen

965
01:01:47,639 --> 01:01:52,480
through twenty five. Under God's direction, the Gideons defeated the Midianites.

966
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:57,280
They killed and decapitated their princes and delivered the heads

967
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:02,239
to Gideon. Judges eleven, twenty nine through thirty nine. Jeptha

968
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:06,039
cooked his beloved daughter on an altar as a human

969
01:02:06,159 --> 01:02:10,400
sacrifice to God in gratitude for giving him victory in

970
01:02:10,559 --> 01:02:14,480
battle for Samuel six nineteen, some of the men of

971
01:02:14,519 --> 01:02:18,320
Beth Schemesh looked into the ark of the Covenant. God

972
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:22,480
killed all seventy of them. For Samuel fifteen seven and

973
01:02:22,599 --> 01:02:27,159
eight God commanded Saul to attack the Amalekites and quote,

974
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:31,480
totally destroy everything that belongs to them, Do not spare them.

975
01:02:31,679 --> 01:02:35,960
Put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle

976
01:02:36,119 --> 01:02:41,440
and sheep, camels and donkeys. Second Samuel six, verses six

977
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:45,199
and seven. The oxen carrying the ark of God stumbled,

978
01:02:45,599 --> 01:02:49,519
and Uza reached out to steady it. God punished this

979
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:54,599
irreverent act by killing him where he stood. First Kings,

980
01:02:54,639 --> 01:02:58,599
thirteen fifteen through twenty four. A prophet lied to a man,

981
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:01,000
telling him that it was fine to eat bread and

982
01:03:01,159 --> 01:03:04,199
drink water in a place that the Lord had previously

983
01:03:04,239 --> 01:03:08,039
told him not to. The deceived man ate and drank there.

984
01:03:08,519 --> 01:03:12,119
God sent a lion to kill him, and his body

985
01:03:12,239 --> 01:03:17,239
was thrown down on the road. Second Chronicles, thirteen seventeen.

986
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:21,760
God delivered the Israelites to Abijah and Judah five hundred

987
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:28,320
thousand enemy dead. Ezekiel twenty twenty six. Israel rebelled, and

988
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:32,920
God's punishment was sobering. Quote. I let them become defiled

989
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:37,400
through their gifts, the sacrifice of every first born, that

990
01:03:37,519 --> 01:03:40,719
I might fill them with horror, so they would know

991
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:46,000
that I am the Lord. Filled them with horror There

992
01:03:46,079 --> 01:03:48,599
was plenty of horror in the Book of Joshua, the

993
01:03:48,639 --> 01:03:52,760
book that contained the celebrated story about Joshua's miraculous victory

994
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:56,239
at Jericho. As they blew the trumpets and the walls

995
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:59,039
of the city fell, I still remember the song we

996
01:03:59,119 --> 01:04:02,599
sang as children and Sunday School. Joshua fought the Battle

997
01:04:02,599 --> 01:04:07,760
of Jericho. Jericho, Jericho. Joshua fought the Battle of Jericho,

998
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:12,639
and the walls came tumbling down. This catchy little ditty

999
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:17,159
conveniently ignored the specifics of what happened after the walls

1000
01:04:17,199 --> 01:04:21,800
came tumbling down. Under God's direction, Joshua's army became a

1001
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:26,639
blood drunk horde of executioners, putting men, women, teenagers, and

1002
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:30,559
infants to the edge of the sword. The soldiers then

1003
01:04:30,679 --> 01:04:34,440
pillaged the gold, silver, bronze, and iron for God and

1004
01:04:34,559 --> 01:04:38,320
burned the city. This scene of carnage would be repeated

1005
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:42,599
throughout the next several chapters Joshua Chapter seven, verses nineteen

1006
01:04:42,639 --> 01:04:48,280
through twenty six. Acan conquered his son's daughters, cattle, donkeys, sheep,

1007
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:51,960
and possessions were taken to the Valley of Acre, where

1008
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:55,960
they were stoned and burned. Joshua chapter eight, twenty two

1009
01:04:56,039 --> 01:04:59,960
through twenty five. Twelve thousand men and women were slought

1010
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:04,760
Joshua ten ten through twenty seven, all of the Gibeonites

1011
01:05:05,119 --> 01:05:08,840
verse twenty eight, all of Mikida verse thirty All of

1012
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:12,000
the city of Libna was put to the sword Verses

1013
01:05:12,039 --> 01:05:16,239
thirty two through thirty three, all of Lakeish verses thirty

1014
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:19,920
four and thirty five, all of Eglon verses thirty six

1015
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:23,079
and thirty seven. The army killed the king of Hebron,

1016
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:28,519
its villages, and every citizen. Quote. They left no survivors

1017
01:05:29,119 --> 01:05:32,320
Joshua ten, thirty eight and thirty nine, all of Debur

1018
01:05:33,039 --> 01:05:37,159
Joshua eleven six. God commanded Joshua to defeat the army

1019
01:05:37,199 --> 01:05:40,519
at the waters of Merim. Quote, you are to hamstring

1020
01:05:40,639 --> 01:05:44,480
their horses, which is a horrible act of animal cruelty,

1021
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:49,559
and burn their chariots. You know it's funny. Sunday school

1022
01:05:49,559 --> 01:05:52,840
teachers never taught us these stories when I was a kid,

1023
01:05:53,119 --> 01:05:56,159
or even as an adult. And the fun continued as

1024
01:05:56,159 --> 01:06:00,559
I dove deeper to discover that Christianity, sacred and holy

1025
01:06:00,639 --> 01:06:06,159
Bible showed God endorsing slavery and the beating of slaves Exodus,

1026
01:06:06,199 --> 01:06:09,239
chapter twenty one, verse twenty and twenty one actually allowed

1027
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:13,920
masters to physically assault their slaves, providing that the beaten

1028
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:17,639
slaves were able to stand after a few days. God's

1029
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:21,840
law in Exodus twenty one seven actually provided instructions for

1030
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:26,280
fathers who were selling their daughters into slavery, and true

1031
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:28,960
to form when it came to women, Leviticus twenty seven

1032
01:06:29,039 --> 01:06:32,800
decreed that female slaves were worth half the value of

1033
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:38,239
male ones. Some Bible stories were just bizarre. For Samuel, eighteen,

1034
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:41,760
verses twenty five through twenty seven explained how David gave

1035
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:46,639
King Saul a dowry of two hundred Philistine four skins

1036
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:50,760
to earn the hand of Saul's daughter Michael in marriage. Oh,

1037
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:53,360
I'm sure this really spice things up at the wedding reception.

1038
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:58,880
Penis flesh, Oh, it's lovely. Deuteronomy twenty three to one

1039
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:03,159
instructed that no one whose testicles are crushed or whose

1040
01:07:03,239 --> 01:07:06,440
male organ is cut off, shall enter the assembly of

1041
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:09,920
the Lord. Genesis thirty eight, verses eight through ten had

1042
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:12,679
God telling a man named Onin to have sex with

1043
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:16,119
his brother's wife in order to produce a child, and

1044
01:07:16,159 --> 01:07:19,880
when Onin instead pulled out and ejaculated on the ground.

1045
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:24,440
God killed him right there. Deuteronomy twenty five, verses eleven

1046
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:27,079
and twelve dictated that if a man was in a

1047
01:07:27,119 --> 01:07:31,480
fight with another man and his wife intervened by seizing

1048
01:07:31,559 --> 01:07:36,119
the opponent by his genitals, the woman's hand was to

1049
01:07:36,119 --> 01:07:42,239
be hacked off at the wrist, foreskins, testicles, seamen, genitals.

1050
01:07:43,039 --> 01:07:46,480
For an omnipotent master of the universe, God sure had

1051
01:07:46,519 --> 01:07:52,320
a conspicuous and violent obsession with the penis. Stories like

1052
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:56,360
these and so many others were extremely disturbing, But he

1053
01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:59,719
was even more disturbing to watch Christians excuse them away,

1054
01:08:00,239 --> 01:08:04,159
offering up lazy explanations that would be rejected wholesale if

1055
01:08:04,199 --> 01:08:07,320
applied to the Koran or some other religion's Holy book.

1056
01:08:07,719 --> 01:08:10,519
You know, it was a different time. His ways are

1057
01:08:10,519 --> 01:08:14,320
not our ways. Some of those stories are just metaphors.

1058
01:08:15,039 --> 01:08:18,279
Just stick to the New Testament not the Old Testament.

1059
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:23,560
Or he's God, so he can do whatever he wants. Apparently,

1060
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:28,640
we mere humans cannot possibly comprehend an infinitely superior being.

1061
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:35,439
Biblical curses, decapitation, kidnapping, rape and fanticide, human sacrifice, and

1062
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:38,199
rivers of blood were all part of a greater plan

1063
01:08:38,479 --> 01:08:43,319
that we mortals cannot digest. And according to the armchair apologists,

1064
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:48,119
even if God had acted with bigotry, misogyny, petty jealousy,

1065
01:08:48,279 --> 01:08:53,800
frothing rage, and cruel vengeance, well, it's his universe, his game,

1066
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:57,960
his rules, and the obedient Christian is expected to simply

1067
01:08:58,039 --> 01:09:01,760
fall in lockstep, shut as his mouth and trust that

1068
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:07,079
Father knows best. As I continued to dig I found

1069
01:09:07,119 --> 01:09:10,720
that many of the scriptures that weren't wildly offensive were

1070
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:16,600
either contradictory or demonstrably false, like the Nativity story. Matthew

1071
01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:20,640
Chapter one, verse twenty says that the Angel appeared to Joseph,

1072
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:23,560
but Luke chapter one, verse twenty eight says that the

1073
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:28,000
angel appeared to Mary. Luke. Chapter two, verses one through

1074
01:09:28,039 --> 01:09:31,960
three says that Querinius issued a decree for a census,

1075
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:35,479
but the Book of Matthew mentions no census at all,

1076
01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:39,920
and Querinius's census didn't actually take place until six CE,

1077
01:09:40,399 --> 01:09:43,520
and that census would have taken place in Joseph's local

1078
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:47,279
tax district like his own hometown, and only the male

1079
01:09:47,359 --> 01:09:51,199
heads of households would have been required to register. Matthew

1080
01:09:51,279 --> 01:09:55,119
Chapter two verses thirteen through sixteen declares that Mary and

1081
01:09:55,239 --> 01:09:58,920
Joseph fled to Egypt to escape Herod's death edict for

1082
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:02,439
the firstborn children. Yet Luke two thirty nine says that

1083
01:10:02,479 --> 01:10:05,960
they returned to Nazareth and there's no mention of Herod

1084
01:10:06,119 --> 01:10:09,520
at all. The virgin birth story is actually based on

1085
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:14,239
a mistranslation of the Hebrew word alma, which translates young

1086
01:10:14,319 --> 01:10:17,640
woman of marriageable age and could have been applied to

1087
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:22,680
any young woman without any immaculate conception backstory. The Hebrew

1088
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:27,680
word for virgin is actually bethulah. Also interesting, several pre

1089
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:31,039
christ pagan gods were also said to be born of

1090
01:10:31,079 --> 01:10:36,920
a virgin, including the gods Perseus and Romulus. We three Kings,

1091
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:41,079
a popular Christmas legend and song. Well, that's not factually

1092
01:10:41,159 --> 01:10:45,000
tethered to the Nativity story. Matthew chapter two, verses one

1093
01:10:45,039 --> 01:10:49,199
and two calls the magi or illusionists, and there's no

1094
01:10:49,319 --> 01:10:53,119
mention of the number three anywhere. Contrast this with Luke

1095
01:10:53,199 --> 01:10:57,920
two twenty five, which says that shepherds, not magi, journeyed

1096
01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:01,920
to see baby Jesus in the manger. A few other contradictions.

1097
01:11:02,279 --> 01:11:05,760
Can a man be righteous? Genesis chapter seven, verse one

1098
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:10,000
says that Noah was righteous. Job two three tells us

1099
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:14,479
that Job was righteous. Luke one six says Zachariah and

1100
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:18,439
Elizabeth were righteous. James chapter five, verse sixteen says that

1101
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:22,520
some men were righteous. First John three seven says that

1102
01:11:22,680 --> 01:11:27,840
Christians can become righteous, but Romans three to ten states clearly,

1103
01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:31,760
quote as it is written, there is no one righteous,

1104
01:11:32,079 --> 01:11:36,760
not even one who is punished for sins. Ezekiel eighteen

1105
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:39,840
twenty asserts that the penalty of sin lies solely with

1106
01:11:40,039 --> 01:11:43,920
the sinner. The son shall not bear the iniquity of

1107
01:11:44,079 --> 01:11:48,119
the father. But Exodus twenty, chapter five declares that sin

1108
01:11:48,279 --> 01:11:52,199
contaminates generations. Quote I the Lord, thy God, am a

1109
01:11:52,279 --> 01:11:56,800
jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children.

1110
01:11:57,199 --> 01:12:02,439
Unto the third and fourth generation? Does God keep anger forever?

1111
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:06,640
Jeremiah chapter three, verse twelve, For I am merciful, saith

1112
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:10,479
the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever. But

1113
01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:14,199
in the very same book, Chapter seventeen, verse four declares,

1114
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:17,880
ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall

1115
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:23,720
burn forever. Who brought the copernium Centurion's request to Jesus

1116
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:27,039
In the New Testament, Matthew chapter eight, verse five says

1117
01:12:27,119 --> 01:12:31,359
it's the centurion himself. Luke chapter seven, verse three states

1118
01:12:31,359 --> 01:12:35,840
that the Centurion sent elders. Luke chapter seven, verse six,

1119
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:38,760
Now this is the same book. In chapter as Elders,

1120
01:12:39,359 --> 01:12:43,800
it says the centurion sent friends. Where did Jesus go

1121
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:47,399
after feeding the five thousand? Mark six point fifty three

1122
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:51,319
says that Jesus and the disciples went to Genessaret. John

1123
01:12:51,439 --> 01:12:54,720
chapter six, verses twenty four and twenty five says that no,

1124
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:58,520
they went to Copernaum. Where did the anointing of Christ

1125
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:02,279
take place? Mathe U twenty six six and seven tells

1126
01:13:02,319 --> 01:13:06,119
us that the anointing happened quote in Bethany, in the

1127
01:13:06,119 --> 01:13:09,960
home of a man known as Simon, the leper oil

1128
01:13:10,079 --> 01:13:14,720
is placed on Jesus's head by an unnamed woman. Luke seven,

1129
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:17,640
verses thirty six and thirty seven says that the oil

1130
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:21,119
was placed on Jesus's feet, not his head, at the

1131
01:13:21,119 --> 01:13:25,279
house of a pharisee in Galilee. John twelve three says

1132
01:13:25,359 --> 01:13:30,159
it wasn't an unnamed woman who annoints Jesus, but Mary.

1133
01:13:30,159 --> 01:13:34,039
Did the cursed fig tree wither immediately? Matthew twenty one

1134
01:13:34,159 --> 01:13:39,199
nineteen says the tree withered immediately. Mark eleven twenty declares,

1135
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:42,359
and in the morning, as they passed by, they saw

1136
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:45,720
the fig tree dried up from the roots. Also, why

1137
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:48,600
would Jesus be angry that the fig tree had nothing

1138
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:51,800
for him to eat? Wouldn't an all knowing deity know

1139
01:13:52,119 --> 01:13:57,039
when fig season is now? Bible scholars like to rationalize

1140
01:13:57,079 --> 01:13:59,960
that Christ was using the tree as a metaphor for

1141
01:14:00,079 --> 01:14:02,600
or the nation of Israel. But if that's the case,

1142
01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:07,039
it's uncanny how often this god man so often rejects

1143
01:14:07,119 --> 01:14:12,560
plain speaking in favor of muddy, confusing symbolism. What were

1144
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:16,479
Jesus's last words on the cross? Matthew twenty seven forty

1145
01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:20,600
six says, my God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

1146
01:14:21,079 --> 01:14:24,600
And this contrast Luke twenty three forty six, where Jesus's

1147
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:28,119
last words are Father, into thy hands, I commend my

1148
01:14:28,279 --> 01:14:32,880
spirit and John nineteen thirty has them as it is finished.

1149
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:37,840
Who were the first visitors to Jesus's tomb. Matthew twenty

1150
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:41,239
eight one says it was Mary Magdalen and the other Mary.

1151
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:45,520
Mark sixteen one says there was a third person, Salome.

1152
01:14:46,039 --> 01:14:49,800
Luke twenty four to ten lists the two Mary's Joanna

1153
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:54,560
and quote the others. John Chapter twenty, verse one mentions

1154
01:14:54,600 --> 01:15:00,840
only Mary Magdalen, how did Judas die? Matthew s through

1155
01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:05,159
eight states that Judas hanged himself, but Acts Chapter one,

1156
01:15:05,279 --> 01:15:09,119
verses sixteen through nineteen says, quote, now this man purchased

1157
01:15:09,159 --> 01:15:12,760
a field with the reward of iniquity, and falling headlong,

1158
01:15:12,920 --> 01:15:16,800
he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels

1159
01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:20,800
gushed out. Those examples are just a few of many,

1160
01:15:21,319 --> 01:15:23,199
And for the first time in my life, I was

1161
01:15:23,279 --> 01:15:27,680
examining the different accounts of identical events side by side,

1162
01:15:28,239 --> 01:15:33,119
astounded and embarrassed that I hadn't noticed the discrepancies before.

1163
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:38,119
I brought these Bible born examples of bloodlust and incongruity

1164
01:15:38,159 --> 01:15:40,880
to the attention of friends and family, only to be

1165
01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:46,079
met with shrugs of indifference. Nobody had satisfactory answers, nobody

1166
01:15:46,199 --> 01:15:50,920
joined my chorus of concern, Nobody really cared, and their

1167
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:55,600
lives moved forward without a hitch. Happy scriptures were embraced

1168
01:15:55,640 --> 01:16:00,479
and extolled, and nasty verses were just blinked away. If

1169
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:04,439
there were problems with the Bible, Christians didn't know, and

1170
01:16:04,520 --> 01:16:15,000
the worst part was they didn't want to know. I

1171
01:16:15,039 --> 01:16:20,000
hope this broadcast, this conversation has been useful for you

1172
01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:23,880
and might be useful in the future. If someone gives

1173
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:27,720
you that look, that sort of happy clappy mannequin stare,

1174
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:30,680
and holds up their Bible and says God is good

1175
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:35,000
all the time, Amen, Praise Jesus. If that happens, well,

1176
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:38,720
now you've got even more examples of why that may

1177
01:16:38,840 --> 01:16:42,479
not be true. Thanks for listening. I'll see you later.

1178
01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:46,319
Speaker 1: Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a

1179
01:16:46,359 --> 01:16:49,960
complete archive of podcasts and videos, products like mugs and

1180
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:53,680
t shirts featuring the Thinking Atheist logo, links to atheist

1181
01:16:53,720 --> 01:16:57,399
pages and resources, and details on upcoming free thought events

1182
01:16:57,399 --> 01:17:04,640
and conventions. Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com.