Speaker 1: This is Sham and I with the Mets and welcome
Speaker 1: to Netflix and Nerds.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Batflicks and Nerds, the Baseball podcast
Speaker 2: with the British Twist. I'm your host John McGee and
Speaker 2: joining me again, Russell.
Speaker 3: How are you doing? Are you? I'm doing good. I'm
Speaker 3: doing good.
Speaker 4: Pumped up after all our last conversation we had with
Speaker 4: coach Gilliam and I think this one's going to be
Speaker 4: as intriguing and as motivating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not gonna that's a that's already really high expectation.
Speaker 3: Is a good friend, but he's way more engaging with me.
Speaker 2: That isn't true. That isn't true. So yeah, Russell's Russell
Speaker 2: sort of tipped the wink there. This is another another
Speaker 2: special guest we've got and it's I mean, I don't
Speaker 2: know if I'm doing you down here, Kyle, but it's
Speaker 2: it's different, right, I was going to say a change
Speaker 2: of speed, but it's different. So it's a pleasure for
Speaker 2: us to be joined by Kyle Body. For those who
Speaker 2: don't know him, Kyle was the founder of drive Line,
Speaker 2: the company at the forefront of revolution revolutionizing data led
Speaker 2: and personal training programs in baseball. He has worked with
Speaker 2: numerous collegiate baseball programs and major league teams, including his
Speaker 2: minor league pitching director of the Cincinnati Reds and a
Speaker 2: special assistant to Boston Red Sox PBO Craig Breslo. He's
Speaker 2: also one of Joey Votto's chess partners, which is the
Speaker 2: most important thing for us in this conversation. Kyle there, welcome,
Speaker 2: thanks to your time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, my pleasure. Great, great, great intro for Yeah.
Speaker 2: So God, you are one of the most connected men
Speaker 2: in baseball. I'm really glad that you know Tyler Russell
Speaker 2: and I spoke to Tyler last week and we had
Speaker 2: a great time. How can you not in the environment
Speaker 2: of the Savannah Bananas.
Speaker 3: It's incredible what he's done.
Speaker 2: It certainly is. But let's let's focus on new Kyle,
Speaker 2: and let's focus on drive line. So we connected over
Speaker 2: Twitter a couple of weeks ago. I bonded a little
Speaker 2: bit on social media about some of your new New
Speaker 2: Year's advice which you were giving, which I absolutely loved,
Speaker 2: which is to just do stuff. So for you, I
Speaker 2: think immediately this was about your playing chess. But it
Speaker 2: seems from a distance that like this is a creed
Speaker 2: for you. As a guy who started out as a
Speaker 2: card counter at poker tables then learned how to hack
Speaker 2: poker websites, you've had a spell in the corporate world
Speaker 2: and then effectively you've brought that sort of hacking mindset
Speaker 2: to pitching development. So this is this is what you're
Speaker 2: all about. Just do stuff, Kyle, isn't it?
Speaker 3: For sure? For sure?
Speaker 1: And as you know, as embarrassed as you can be
Speaker 1: tweeting about baseball, any of us, all of us, anyone
Speaker 1: listening out there, I promise losing to a nine year
Speaker 1: old and chess over four hours is very humbling.
Speaker 3: Don't worry. If I can lose to a.
Speaker 1: Nine year old chess, you can tweet about some stuff
Speaker 1: and maybe get you all that people on Twitter and
Speaker 1: slanning ways bad.
Speaker 2: I didn't think we were going to start out about
Speaker 2: losing losing to nine year olds at chess. But so
Speaker 2: what is it about approaching stuff like that? Tyler? What
Speaker 2: is it? Kyle?
Speaker 3: Tyler?
Speaker 2: Both basehead? Kyle?
Speaker 3: What is it?
Speaker 2: Why is that being your approach? And how have you
Speaker 2: brought that to to baseball?
Speaker 3: Well, I mean you mentioned about with Joey and the
Speaker 3: chess partner stuff.
Speaker 1: But they really got me into it in twenty twenty
Speaker 1: before the pandemic, you know, they played Chess is really
Speaker 1: popular inside major league clubhouses. There's a lot of downtime
Speaker 1: and people can only play so many cards, and chest
Speaker 1: has become really popular, so they kind of got me
Speaker 1: into it.
Speaker 3: I played as a.
Speaker 1: Kid, but very little, and I don't know, it just
Speaker 1: kind of really took hold. And it's just difficult. The
Speaker 1: game is really hard and it's unlike anything else I've done.
Speaker 1: I've been a professional gambler, played manage to gathering other things,
Speaker 1: but I don't know, There's just something about a really complicated,
Speaker 1: really difficult game.
Speaker 3: That is learning.
Speaker 1: There's like there's nowhere to hide, you know, and like
Speaker 1: baseball and there's like randomness, right like batted balls luck
Speaker 1: and batting average on balls and play and then all
Speaker 1: this other stuff.
Speaker 3: But in chess there is a little bit of element
Speaker 3: of luck.
Speaker 1: And like what you know and then what people play,
Speaker 1: and people can run right into your preparation. But I mean, realistically,
Speaker 1: it's like ninety nine percent skill, and so you only
Speaker 1: have yourself to blame when you lose to a nine
Speaker 1: year old, which is it's is pretty cool actually in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways.
Speaker 3: So I don't know, I really don't know why I
Speaker 3: like it so much, but I do.
Speaker 2: That's really interesting what you're saying there about. You know,
Speaker 2: you're having been a professional poker player, a game with
Speaker 2: pretty pretty rigid real sets, which if you know, if
Speaker 2: you know how to hack the game, then you know
Speaker 2: how to win, you know, within within averages and so on.
Speaker 2: But then Magic the Gathering, which is a game that
Speaker 2: is famously like almost impossible to hack, as is baseball, right,
Speaker 2: and you brought what have you brought from poker? And
Speaker 2: I guess what are you bringing from chess into the
Speaker 2: sport of baseball? And how does that differ from what
Speaker 2: you brought from Magic the Gathering?
Speaker 1: Yeah, poker and magic there's really huge overlap, you know,
Speaker 1: like some of the world champions are also great magic players.
Speaker 1: So it's like a pretty it's you know, hidden information,
Speaker 1: probablistic and so what I've I'm really lucky because if
Speaker 1: you don't grow up playing games like that, or you
Speaker 1: don't grow up playing games of chance and understan and
Speaker 1: how it applies to life, A lot of people, I
Speaker 1: mean most people are deterministic, you know, like if I
Speaker 1: did X y Z and I got ABC results, then
Speaker 1: it's because I did X y Z that I got ABC.
Speaker 1: And that's not true. Right in baseball, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of luck that goes into it. I mean drive line
Speaker 1: success is there's a lot of luck that goes in
Speaker 1: the drive line being successful.
Speaker 3: And this isn't just necessarily modest, but it's true.
Speaker 1: Like if, for example, like if drive Line was trying
Speaker 1: to exist before Moneyball, that would be nearly impossible. Like
Speaker 1: what is written in Moneyball that is really relevant to
Speaker 1: drive Line? And the answer is not much. But it's
Speaker 1: about the fact that Moneyball comes out the book and
Speaker 1: it changes the mindset of people who can work in
Speaker 1: front offices. Like so certain types of people work in
Speaker 1: front offices, certain types of thinking about probabilistic about on
Speaker 1: base percentage and the draft.
Speaker 3: Those all change.
Speaker 1: So as a result, like the concept of thinking about
Speaker 1: player development differently is also on the table. Right, the
Speaker 1: Astros is winning the World Series very lucky for us
Speaker 1: because when they win the World Series, a lot of
Speaker 1: people are forced to admit that maybe there's a different
Speaker 1: way to do things.
Speaker 3: And of course most of the focus is on the
Speaker 3: cheating and the.
Speaker 1: Tanking, you know, but in reality, the player development machine
Speaker 1: that Lunaw and those guys built is something that opened
Speaker 1: up the eyes of people inside baseball. And so that's
Speaker 1: a lot of luck. If the instros don't win, you know,
Speaker 1: oh well, the anstwers were dominant, do they really need
Speaker 1: to win. Yeah, you do need to win to change
Speaker 1: to people's minds. Whether that's fair or not. That's how
Speaker 1: it is. And why are we talking of today about
Speaker 1: how angry everyone is about the Dodgers and signing all
Speaker 1: these players and whatever. Like, would they be as mad
Speaker 1: if the Dodgers don't win the World Series? I don't
Speaker 1: think so, it'd still be mad. It is twitter, you know,
Speaker 1: but like these things are have a huge impact and
Speaker 1: you don't control any of it. So a big part
Speaker 1: of like poker and magic is understanding that, like luck
Speaker 1: plays a big role in your success and your failure.
Speaker 3: And learning to just deal with that rather.
Speaker 1: Than being mad about it all the time is something
Speaker 1: that I think is I'm really lucky to have experienced
Speaker 1: that as a kid, to understand that probab you know,
Speaker 1: probablistic thinking is the way to go.
Speaker 2: That's really really interesting and it's sort of it does
Speaker 2: lead me on quite nicely to I was going to
Speaker 2: ask about what were the things that in your opinion,
Speaker 2: so drive line has become a sort of a cipher
Speaker 2: or a pseudonym for sort of player development in modern baseball.
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's always a theme of the off
Speaker 2: season outside you know, the Shenanigans of who's going to
Speaker 2: land where it's it's a conversation about whose training where
Speaker 2: and what focus have they got. In your opinion, what
Speaker 2: were the things that shifted that, Kyle, from being you know,
Speaker 2: an approach that you were perfecting with a small number
Speaker 2: of players who had brought into it really early guys
Speaker 2: like Dan Stralia and Joe Bimel and people like that,
Speaker 2: and took it to you know, being that that sort
Speaker 2: of synonymous sort of you know, Leviathan within baseball where
Speaker 2: player development was. Was it just those things that you
Speaker 2: mentioned or what were there any things that you saw
Speaker 2: for it that have helped shift the dell.
Speaker 1: To it's really you know, you pointed the big leaguers
Speaker 1: that have come through here, and that's certainly what's the
Speaker 1: most public, but it's really more about the minor leaguers
Speaker 1: and the college players and the high scho players. And
Speaker 1: that's what Andrew Friedman told me many many years ago,
Speaker 1: you know, when he was with Tampa and I was
Speaker 1: interviewing there.
Speaker 3: He said, the best way to affect change is for
Speaker 3: like amateur players to then force the issue on their
Speaker 3: way up. In Cleveland, I think was you know a
Speaker 3: big one obviously Bauer going up through that, but then
Speaker 3: more than that, it's Clevenger and Pisano and uh, you
Speaker 3: know the entire double A roster was you know, using
Speaker 3: that Casey weathers Uh, you know, tons of those players,
Speaker 3: Mitch Brown, players that never even got to the big leagues,
Speaker 3: JP firerise and demonstrated, and the Andrew Miller deal. You know,
Speaker 3: many many many players in Cleveland and Houston and others
Speaker 3: had really started that change.
Speaker 1: And that's what influenced it because people, you know, all
Speaker 1: we watch typically are you know, in the big leagues
Speaker 1: or the fans generally, but they're paying so much attention
Speaker 1: to the farm system.
Speaker 3: That's the prize jewel.
Speaker 1: You know, you can't you know, the Dodgers can spend
Speaker 1: all this money for sure, but like that's that's no
Speaker 1: guarantee of success. Look at the mats, I mean even
Speaker 1: the Dodgers. Who knows if it will actually work, you know,
Speaker 1: but I mean it probably will. But it's the fact
Speaker 1: that their pipeline of pitchers is constant, you know, and
Speaker 1: their players development is still very good. So that that's
Speaker 1: what gets noticed in the GM you know landscape, I
Speaker 1: would say, is how much is being done, who's transforming
Speaker 1: the minor leagues, who's transforming these players that are coming
Speaker 1: up that are cost controlled.
Speaker 3: And I think that's what really got the people's attention.
Speaker 1: From the fans perspective, it's like all that happens to
Speaker 1: the big leagues, but what catches the GM's attention is like, hey,
Speaker 1: this a ball team sucks and they don't now yeah,
Speaker 1: and these players we have reports on, we have them
Speaker 1: as like not trade, Like we're not interested in this player.
Speaker 3: JP fire As might.
Speaker 1: Be one of the better examples, Like they had a
Speaker 1: Division III pitcher drafted Wisconsin and people had like non
Speaker 1: prospect grades on him, you know, and then within two
Speaker 1: years they were like, hey, this is a should acquire
Speaker 1: like eighth you know, eighth n guy, back end guy.
Speaker 3: And when healthy JP is.
Speaker 1: Quite good and so then that that's a good example
Speaker 1: of when scouts are like, I saw this guy three
Speaker 1: years ago and he sucked, and now he doesn't suck,
Speaker 1: and then that kind of spurs the change. And that
Speaker 1: really happened at the amateur level. Oregon State was a
Speaker 1: big one, Vanderbilt was a big change. And yeah, so
Speaker 1: I think that's what really causes people to really question
Speaker 1: their beliefs.
Speaker 4: So when you go through that, is that what kind
Speaker 4: of those stages that maybe a lot of people haven't seen,
Speaker 4: is that what turned Drive Line from Kyle Body's idea
Speaker 4: into like a via built business. I've seen a few
Speaker 4: interviews you've talked about before, especially with that discussion you
Speaker 4: had with Freedom about wanting to do this. I think
Speaker 4: is initia that you wanted to go into an organization
Speaker 4: and make this change, and he told you to make
Speaker 4: the most change, you're actually gonna be able to do
Speaker 4: it outside an organization.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he had you know, he backed it up
Speaker 1: with obviously, I'll listen to anything, Andrew says, we catch
Speaker 1: up every so often, but you know he had concrete reasoning, right.
Speaker 1: He was like, you know, David Price, you know, we
Speaker 1: didn't develop him. Hopefully we didn't scum up.
Speaker 3: So that was good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it took him first overall. He was the
Speaker 1: obvious overall pick, first overall pick. But with David came
Speaker 1: like weighted ball stuff that he had done at Vanderbilt,
Speaker 1: you know. And so when David is using what the
Speaker 1: tempa going to say, no, you can't use it. No,
Speaker 1: of course not right, like they have to accommodate it.
Speaker 1: But then other players seem using weighted balls. Then they
Speaker 1: started asking questions and it's just that seed of an
Speaker 1: idea that starts rolling, and uh yeah, that's kind of
Speaker 1: That's that's how it happened. And Andrew was one hundred
Speaker 1: percent of right on that. I wasn't necessarily convinced. I
Speaker 1: mean I didn't know anything about baseball all the time,
Speaker 1: so I didn't, you know, I thought maybe he should
Speaker 1: blowing me off like that.
Speaker 3: But it turns out that Andrews is right.
Speaker 1: And when he hired me with the Dodgers, that's exactly
Speaker 1: what happened with LA, Like we used weighted ball programs
Speaker 1: with the players, you know, they're back end minor league
Speaker 1: guys that were like non priority. Then they end up
Speaker 1: trading two of them for for help. They trade Corey
Speaker 1: Copping and Andrew Isler for Ryan Madison and expert I
Speaker 1: can't remember who else was. Uh, so they trade those
Speaker 1: guys then, uh, you know, the biggest breakout that everyone
Speaker 1: kind of knows now from that program was Tony Consoling
Speaker 1: and so then it all takes out of those things.
Speaker 1: And then you know they had drafted Walker Bueler out
Speaker 1: of Vanderville, and Walker was very vocal about supporting weighted
Speaker 1: ball stuff and this stuff.
Speaker 3: So you have both ends of it, and so he
Speaker 3: was right, like I listened to.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously Andrew is one of the best to
Speaker 1: do it when it comes to not just you know,
Speaker 1: signing all the expensive free agents, which he does do
Speaker 1: a good job of that, but also like how to
Speaker 1: build an organization around that, and how to truly build
Speaker 1: an organization not a baseball team, Like how do you
Speaker 1: build an ecosystem?
Speaker 3: And I've learned a lot from Andrew on that on
Speaker 3: that front.
Speaker 2: But this is part of the conversation. You know, we're
Speaker 2: having this conversation in the midst of the Dodgers having
Speaker 2: just signed Brocus to Saki and Tanna Scott. But you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: you're right, Kyle, that they have all the money, but
Speaker 2: those decisions aren't made in a vacuum, are they They
Speaker 2: maybe because of the focus that that organization has on
Speaker 2: developing the plays to be the best that they can
Speaker 2: be and to succeed as a as a collective.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and building a relationship. MLB is much closer to
Speaker 3: the NBA than than people realize.
Speaker 1: Is like, you know, it's when we're talking about the
Speaker 1: kind of money that these players are signing for. In
Speaker 1: additional five to ten million, you know, for Tanna Scott,
Speaker 1: probably a big deal because you know, that's a lot
Speaker 1: of money. But for Otani and the others, not necessarily.
Speaker 1: You know, they want to make sure they sign for
Speaker 1: a winner. They want to be comfortable where they are,
Speaker 1: and relationships play a huge role in where they're gonna sign.
Speaker 1: And that's true about Otani and that's true about anyone really.
Speaker 1: But you know, that's what Andrew I think, not saying
Speaker 1: that he's really good at that and that's the only
Speaker 1: thing he's good at, but I mean he understands that,
Speaker 1: you know, building an ecosystem and winners you have to
Speaker 1: win for sure. But additionally, like how do you develop
Speaker 1: relationships with Japanese agents, marketers and that kind of stuff,
Speaker 1: And you've been doing that for years to a lot
Speaker 1: of teams that don't I don't think a very good
Speaker 1: job of that of that, And that's why consistency at
Speaker 1: the front office is also extremely important. You know, like
Speaker 1: Andrew's been with the Dodgers for quite some time now,
Speaker 1: but when you have this constant turnover in the front
Speaker 1: offices that these free agents that they want to they
Speaker 1: want to make sure you know that there's going to
Speaker 1: be consistency and they feel comfortable with to certain people.
Speaker 1: And that's why Atani has an opt out. You know,
Speaker 1: if Andrew leeves uh that that's a that's that's important
Speaker 1: to him, and it should be because you're talking about
Speaker 1: a lot of money. Yeah, but Atani can get a
Speaker 1: lot of money from anywhere, right, It's more about like, yeah,
Speaker 1: does he want to win, for sure, he does, I
Speaker 1: know a TONI pretty well. But more importantly, he wants consistency.
Speaker 1: He wants to be sure that this is going to
Speaker 1: be the last contracted science probably and so then that's
Speaker 1: that's all part of organization building that I think is
Speaker 1: kind of hidden.
Speaker 3: You know, our fans aren't necessarily that interested in.
Speaker 4: So obviously, like we took the drive line has become
Speaker 4: quite a significant player in the baseball world, How would
Speaker 4: you like describe drivelines like core philosophy, Like when it
Speaker 4: comes to player with development, I.
Speaker 1: Think data driven player development is what we do best.
Speaker 1: It's kind of our tagline. Yeah, we try to make
Speaker 1: decisions based on you know, high probability that they're going
Speaker 1: to work, you know. So, like there's a lot of
Speaker 1: swing coaches and pitching coaches that are that are good
Speaker 1: for sure, but a big problem is that you always
Speaker 1: experience of these organizations' is like, oh, well, we have
Speaker 1: the best pitching coach at you know, for a major
Speaker 1: league team. Sure, what's gonna happen when that guy like
Speaker 1: leaves or quits or is like done?
Speaker 3: You know that that's not great? Like what did he teach?
Speaker 3: How did he teach it?
Speaker 1: And being able to distill those systems down into or
Speaker 1: those ideas down into a system that can be repeatable
Speaker 1: that we can train people because we lost I don't know,
Speaker 1: I think fifty employees now to prefer baseball.
Speaker 3: Something like that.
Speaker 1: So then we learned really early like hey, you know,
Speaker 1: you got to have a repeatable system. And this is
Speaker 1: something I learned in Houston under Lounaw and sing and
Speaker 1: Elias was. You know, they hired a bunch of pitching
Speaker 1: coaches and weird people like me out of like schools
Speaker 1: and in places no one cared about, Like, no one
Speaker 1: cared about drive Line, you know when I started there
Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen, twenty twelve, and they hired Chris Holt
Speaker 1: from you know, he was working at a drive line
Speaker 1: type place. Drew French was, you know, fired from a college.
Speaker 1: Bill Murphy had been like won like six games at Brown.
Speaker 1: They got fired, like, oh, we're just a bunch of losers.
Speaker 1: And then if you pass forward, like Murph is now
Speaker 1: the big league pitching coach, Holt is our bullbend coach
Speaker 1: in Boston. Franch is the pitching coach in Baltimore. Like
Speaker 1: these guys are all have all moved up, and they
Speaker 1: did really good talent identification early. But then when they
Speaker 1: lose all these people, like then what have you lost
Speaker 1: in Houston?
Speaker 3: And it turns out that, you.
Speaker 1: Know, the system is bigger, you know than any one individual,
Speaker 1: and they really believe that and they did a good
Speaker 1: job of that.
Speaker 3: And so then that's what we had to do in
Speaker 3: drive Line.
Speaker 1: It's like, how do we develop systems that survive any
Speaker 1: one person leaving, including me, And that's my job as
Speaker 1: the chief Technical Officers is chief technology officers. How do
Speaker 1: I build these systems that our athletes receive, you know,
Speaker 1: a consistent experience with the fact that we have the
Speaker 1: best intelligence that trains them for what they need to do,
Speaker 1: but then also coaches that we feel very confident in
Speaker 1: training in a short period of time that can convey
Speaker 1: that information because AI is not going to do that
Speaker 1: anytime soon yet. So humans that actually developed these relationships
Speaker 1: are you know, probably the most important thing we do.
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, that's cool. I think obviously we talk about
Speaker 4: one of the key aspects is having that uniformity about
Speaker 4: how you collect the data and how you approach it.
Speaker 4: But I think you have to then get into a
Speaker 4: player specific customization when you actually then tailor what you
Speaker 4: want to do with this information and the program that
Speaker 4: like then goes on for those individuals. How have you
Speaker 4: found that that's kind of like developed over your time
Speaker 4: at drive Line about being like, how do we then
Speaker 4: if only through each individual what they should be doing.
Speaker 1: So I have a great story that's not about Drive Line,
Speaker 1: but I think he'll play well in the podcast and
Speaker 1: it really ills for it's a story. So one of
Speaker 1: the most intelligent people I've met, one of the most
Speaker 1: intelligent players I've met, and I really mean intelligence. I
Speaker 1: want to make it very clear. I mean, like IQ
Speaker 1: sanitized test. I really do believe this is Ellie de
Speaker 1: la Cruz, the Cincinnati Rights. Now, Ellie is awesome, an
Speaker 1: incredible baseball like you, obviously, he's an incredible, you know
Speaker 1: player in so many ways. But what I don't think
Speaker 1: fancy on a regular basis is that when Ellie came over,
Speaker 1: he was a non priority sign I think twenty thousand
Speaker 1: dollars bonus.
Speaker 3: And he didn't.
Speaker 1: Speak or write, you know, English at all. But he
Speaker 1: didn't read or write Spanish either, Right, he didn't go
Speaker 1: you know, he had to stop going to school so
Speaker 1: he could work, so he coun support help support his family,
Speaker 1: you know, and that's not uncommon in the Dominican And
Speaker 1: so he's a really good that speaks highly of his
Speaker 1: character right there. You know, not that there needs to
Speaker 1: be much more. Ellie is well known as being a
Speaker 1: high character guy. But in a short period of time,
Speaker 1: you know, Ellie ended up learning not only how to
Speaker 1: speak English extremely well, but also read, write, it. And
Speaker 1: then in his one of his last interviews last year
Speaker 1: at the end of the season, they asked him what
Speaker 1: he wanted to do, and he said he wanted to
Speaker 1: learn Japanese so he could speak to a todi, right,
Speaker 1: And I have no doubt that he can do that
Speaker 1: or probably has done it by now. And so someone
Speaker 1: like Ellie, who didn't have a lot of formal education
Speaker 1: growing up, you know very little, how do we convey
Speaker 1: to him, you know, the analytical approach that's CJ. Gilman
Speaker 1: and our hitting coaches they wanted to do. And it
Speaker 1: can't be a ton of numbers, it can't be a
Speaker 1: ton of characters, it can't be a top words. It's
Speaker 1: not because Ellie's not intelligent. He's extremely intelligent. He's just
Speaker 1: not knowledgeable. Right, So then where do you start without condescending,
Speaker 1: without insulting him, and being able to boil it down
Speaker 1: to a blast censor on his bat, you know, and
Speaker 1: measuring bat speed and being like, hey, if this number
Speaker 1: goes up, that's good, you know, and then over time
Speaker 1: laying on why right, and then he was very curious
Speaker 1: on why is that important? You know? How do I
Speaker 1: how do I make that number go up? In all
Speaker 1: these things to the point where you know the proof
Speaker 1: is in the pudding because he got busted with a
Speaker 1: blast sensor cap on his bat in the big leagues,
Speaker 1: I think against the Nationals because Davey Martinez is the
Speaker 1: manager and he called the umpire. He's like, what does
Speaker 1: he have on his bat? And because the blast sensor
Speaker 1: is not you're not allowed to use it in the
Speaker 1: big leagues, but you are in the minor leagues. But
Speaker 1: Ellie likes the feel of it so much that he
Speaker 1: had the covering on the bat without a sensor. And
Speaker 1: the reason I say that is like, because for Ellie
Speaker 1: it's you know, I don't want to not for Ellie,
Speaker 1: but for you know, Latin players and foreign players generally,
Speaker 1: there can be this bias and it's not racism. I
Speaker 1: don't think it's that, but it's just like this racial
Speaker 1: insensitivity or like ed, oh, well, this person didn't go
Speaker 1: to high school, therefore he's not intelligent.
Speaker 3: A big difference between intelligence and knowledge. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like if you think that of you, have you
Speaker 1: spoken to the average like high school drafteed I got
Speaker 1: a two point one GPA from Arkansas.
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, you know, we're going to talk about
Speaker 3: like that. And it's not like no one's.
Speaker 1: Trying to do anything bad, but it's like we just
Speaker 1: kind of assume that it's really harder they don't grow
Speaker 1: up with his technology. But the reality is, and in
Speaker 1: my experience, Latin players love technology and analytics more than
Speaker 1: the American players because to them, baseball is still a game.
Speaker 1: For a lot of them when they come over here,
Speaker 1: we've over professionalized the amateur game of baseball to the
Speaker 1: point where our kids become desensitized the technology, desensitized to
Speaker 1: a lot of these things, whereas I think in Latin
Speaker 1: America they do a much better job of the game
Speaker 1: is a game, right, we call it that right, And
Speaker 1: so as a result, that's that's why I mentioned the
Speaker 1: individualization of the education that you brought up. But I
Speaker 1: really wanted to point out Ellie because he has such
Speaker 1: a high baseball IQ bod. He's also extremely intelligent in
Speaker 1: general tasks, which is lacking in knowledge. So then how
Speaker 1: do you bridge that gap with someone like him? And
Speaker 1: inside that journey is how you can understand how you
Speaker 1: can work with big leaguers like you know, Anthony DeSclafani
Speaker 1: or you know any of these other players that we
Speaker 1: have that are really intelligent and knowledgeable, and so that's
Speaker 1: that's the that's the that's the essence of coaching, I think.
Speaker 4: And in like the ten fifteen years now that you've
Speaker 4: been doing this, like how much has that knowledge like increase,
Speaker 4: not like the intelligence of the players, but people knowing that, like, hey,
Speaker 4: it's exit velocity, it's spin rate, it's velocity.
Speaker 2: These are the word things that I need to be improving.
Speaker 4: And do they come to you with already kind of
Speaker 4: preconceived ideas that sometimes you have to actually like break
Speaker 4: down and be like, no, that's not what we're going to.
Speaker 3: Do for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, some of it. You have to find out
Speaker 1: what they're willing to change and what they're not. Some
Speaker 1: people come in and you know, they're big. We usually
Speaker 1: they've had a lot of success, so you know some
Speaker 1: things you can't change. And you also have to be
Speaker 1: humble enough to know that, like Drivelin doesn't have all
Speaker 1: the answers to everything you know, and no one does.
Speaker 1: So there's things that people believe that you may believe
Speaker 1: are wrong, but you got to have the humility for it. Like,
Speaker 1: for example, over the last five years everyone's been like, oh,
Speaker 1: stuff plus you know is the best metric, and it
Speaker 1: is very good, and be like, you know, you should
Speaker 1: throw your best pitches more often, right, And this was
Speaker 1: the Yankees approach for some time and got a lot
Speaker 1: of success the Reds too.
Speaker 3: And some other teams. But innately, you have to know
Speaker 3: that baseball can't be as simple as this pitch has
Speaker 3: the highest stuff plus value. Therefore I throw it one
Speaker 3: hundred percent. You know, baseball must be more complicated than that.
Speaker 3: You just know it. Can you prove it? No? But
Speaker 3: can do you know that?
Speaker 1: Like you've ever played baseball or watch it enough, you
Speaker 1: know that, like if you just total a hitter, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna throw one hundred percent of some type of pitch
Speaker 1: that that can't be the best approach, you know, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's got to be, myron, it's got to be such
Speaker 1: an outlier type idea. But we know that pitching, truly
Speaker 1: pitching is is more than that. And then that's you
Speaker 1: know where scouts and others would be, well, that's stupid
Speaker 1: or and they may not say it in the most
Speaker 1: friendly way, but in the kernel of truth is that
Speaker 1: they're right. And then that leads you to develop models
Speaker 1: like mixed plus and match plus and things like that
Speaker 1: that actually capture the essence of that, because like, if
Speaker 1: you just go buy stuff plus, then why are their
Speaker 1: outliers like Hendrix And why are their outliers that have
Speaker 1: really poor stuff plus but get really good results? But
Speaker 1: then when you try to measure their commands, their commands
Speaker 1: seems no better than anyone else. So then that must
Speaker 1: be either one your models are bad. Like there's always
Speaker 1: gonna be outlines that you can't explain, but there must be
Speaker 1: some something behind that. And I think that's the cool
Speaker 1: part of drive Line is we don't shy away from,
Speaker 1: you know, taking that and what people kind of don't
Speaker 1: know about me or they choose to forget I think
Speaker 1: is that my upbringing is not an analytics. My upbringing
Speaker 1: is in pro scouting. I came up through as a scout,
Speaker 1: not an analyst. So I actually really value that qualitative
Speaker 1: opinion a lot, and then try and then how do
Speaker 1: we distill that into a system. I'm not trying to
Speaker 1: replace scouts or anything like that, or fans or anything
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to.
Speaker 1: Take you know, what they talk about baseball and how
Speaker 1: they see it because that's data and then turn it
Speaker 1: into a repeatable system so when they're gone or they're
Speaker 1: done with baseball, that that knowledge lives on forever. And
Speaker 1: I think that's that's the beauty of analytics a lot
Speaker 1: of ways.
Speaker 2: No, that's cool.
Speaker 4: I feel like players like hit development plateaus something that
Speaker 4: I've had, Like in my life, I've been told sometimes
Speaker 4: like if you want to change something, you're going to
Speaker 4: get worse before you get better. How do you kind
Speaker 4: of like identify either a player is stuck and how
Speaker 4: do you kind of like get them past like those
Speaker 4: barriers with almost that statement like you might get worse
Speaker 4: for a bit.
Speaker 1: One of the best ways for me to experience this firsthand,
Speaker 1: and I've tweeted about it, and I think people should
Speaker 1: do it that in baseball is get coaching in something else,
Speaker 1: like be coached, like you know, because people forget what
Speaker 1: it's like to be coached. I certainly had so when
Speaker 1: I got a chess coach, very humbling to be told
Speaker 1: how bad I am at chess and my coach is awesome.
Speaker 1: I have two of them, Mark Aserman and Calvin Blocker,
Speaker 1: And I used to play an opening and Mark would
Speaker 1: always be on these like this opening is bad for you,
Speaker 1: like you know, playing D four into the V four
Speaker 1: and I had to switch.
Speaker 3: And eventually and I'm like, well, if I switch, I'm
Speaker 3: gonna be worse.
Speaker 1: And he's like, you know, yeah, that's true obviously, but
Speaker 1: like that's it's best for your career. I've switched and
Speaker 1: I've had the best results after a period of being bad.
Speaker 1: So there's this humility aspect, and people don't want to
Speaker 1: be bad at anything, you know, I didn't, and people don't,
Speaker 1: so being able to paint the long term picture for
Speaker 1: them because no one really wants to be the best
Speaker 1: a ball pitcher, you know, like that's that's nice, you know,
Speaker 1: but the goal is to be the best big leaguer,
Speaker 1: and then you show them the path to being a
Speaker 1: big leaguer. And I think that's that's what we owe
Speaker 1: to them on how to do that. Now that being said,
Speaker 1: I don't think it's true that players necessarily get a
Speaker 1: lot worse, you know, when you start doing things. There's
Speaker 1: ways to kind of mitigate that and ways to put
Speaker 1: them in a safe environment so they feel okay and
Speaker 1: slowly add things back in the games. And we had
Speaker 1: a really we had a lot of success with the
Speaker 1: Reds in the minor leagues of of doing that, and
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, honestly, the coaches do very little.
Speaker 3: It's the players. You build the environment for them to succeed.
Speaker 1: When I took over Dayton for a week, I gave
Speaker 1: my coach a week off and I took over, took
Speaker 1: over the team, and it was Dayton vers Lake County
Speaker 1: and Joe Kenzie Noel hit like a million homers off
Speaker 1: of us that trip.
Speaker 3: That sucked.
Speaker 1: But like when I got there, I basically had to
Speaker 1: do nothing because our pitch coach and our system was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: the starting pitcher writes the scouting report.
Speaker 3: On Tuesday, which would be the first game. He writes
Speaker 3: it on Monday for Tuesday.
Speaker 1: We'd go over right on Tuesday, and then we update
Speaker 1: the scouting report after the third game.
Speaker 3: We'll play six game series, and so then on the fourth.
Speaker 1: Game that morning, our closer or our bullpend captain will
Speaker 1: come up with a revised report like, Okay, well this
Speaker 1: is what the starters are saying halfway through the series,
Speaker 1: this is where it was wrong. This is where we're
Speaker 1: going to see changes. And then they would do that,
Speaker 1: and then they would set up the nine pocket and
Speaker 1: the rap sodo and the track man and the weighted balls,
Speaker 1: like it was all done. The players have this whole
Speaker 1: cadence of it, and it's like, man, that's how you
Speaker 1: know you've succeeded in coaching, is that you don't need
Speaker 1: to do anything. Like these guys already bought into the
Speaker 1: incremental change. They would measure these things, and as a
Speaker 1: result of that system being built, they were working on
Speaker 1: things that would necessarily make them worse over a short
Speaker 1: period of time, but then they knew would make them better.
Speaker 1: But the coaches doesn't have to sell it anymore, like
Speaker 1: these players buy into it. And I thought that was
Speaker 1: the really beautiful thing that we had going on with Cincinnati.
Speaker 2: So taking that thought into it slightly different direction, Kyle,
Speaker 2: I wonder what looking at it from from a distance
Speaker 2: as a fan of the sport, it does feel like,
Speaker 2: you know that the modern world of baseball, whether that's
Speaker 2: social media or facilities such as yours and some of
Speaker 2: your competitors, do allow different routes for sort of public
Speaker 2: reinvention of players. Right there is always an opportunity for
Speaker 2: somebody to go away and do something completely different and
Speaker 2: put themselves back in the shop window. The one that's
Speaker 2: really in my mind is a guy I know he knows,
Speaker 2: is Robert Stock Right. He's gone away, completely reinvented the
Speaker 2: way that he throws a baseball, and it's like some
Speaker 2: of the nastiest stuff you'll ever see in the world,
Speaker 2: and gone away and he's one of the best pictures
Speaker 2: in Mexico and he's back with you guys on the
Speaker 2: Red Sox. Now do you feel like that that the
Speaker 2: whole sort of that level of curiosity and the opportunity
Speaker 2: to both dig into it if you're if you're open
Speaker 2: minded like Robert is, but then also put that back
Speaker 2: in the shop window is sort of a feature of
Speaker 2: modern baseball. It is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it,
Speaker 1: because like someone like even someone like Robert, especially because
Speaker 1: we've eliminated minor league levels'd be short and levels and
Speaker 1: we have the best preserved list and we can carry
Speaker 1: fewer players, which makes it harder for players like Robert
Speaker 1: and other players like in Mexico there carving like tom Akermer.
Speaker 3: You know, it's harder for them to get jobs because.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, Robert, he was this guy and he's
Speaker 1: had some big league success, you know, and why would
Speaker 1: we sign him because he's just going to be this
Speaker 1: player again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's not really flat really fastball, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he does this and whatever. It's like, okay,
Speaker 3: well we've seen that before and whatever, no big deal.
Speaker 1: So for Robert, I think he understood that, and so
Speaker 1: the changes he made were to improve his fastball, but
Speaker 1: to also just be a different person, you know. Uh,
Speaker 1: and he is a different pitcher entirely, not like, oh,
Speaker 1: my stuff's gotten five to ten percent better, therefore I'm
Speaker 1: a different player. That might not be enough, you know,
Speaker 1: for someone that has as much experience as Robert. You know,
Speaker 1: so now he's truly just a completely different pitcher. Now,
Speaker 1: is his stuff better, Yeah, it is, for sure, But
Speaker 1: it's almost less about that the stuff is better.
Speaker 3: Is that it's like, well, we we've never seen this
Speaker 3: type of pitch.
Speaker 1: Sure, you know, would we sign a picture like this
Speaker 1: that didn't have the history of Robert Stock And the
Speaker 1: answer is probably yes, right, So it's like, oh, it's
Speaker 1: less about it's a credit to our scouts and the
Speaker 1: credit to the organization to be like this isn't Robert
Speaker 1: Stock were signing that we know this is Roberts. This
Speaker 1: is another pitcher whose name is Robert Stock that looks
Speaker 1: like this, and that's very different.
Speaker 3: And that's a credit to Robert to.
Speaker 1: Be willing to make those changes, in a credit to
Speaker 1: the Red Sox and other organizations to be like, you know,
Speaker 1: to be humble enough to realize that, you know, this
Speaker 1: is a different player.
Speaker 3: And so that's not easy.
Speaker 1: Roberts an a credible athlete, and he's you know, he's
Speaker 1: the he's the Bryce Harper before Bryce Harper. People don't
Speaker 1: remember how good Robert was as an amateur. I mean
Speaker 1: it's incredible, and I really do mean that he was
Speaker 1: Bryce before Rice.
Speaker 3: And so that's not possible for everybody.
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, like Roberts had so much
Speaker 1: success in amateur baseball, in college and and myer Ley's
Speaker 1: and pro ball and you know, big leagues, then why
Speaker 1: should Robert have to change? You know, most people in
Speaker 1: that position are like, I don't have to change. I'm
Speaker 1: I'm the man, I've been the man. I just need
Speaker 1: to do things better, right, And so for someone like
Speaker 1: Roberts to be so humble to make those big changes
Speaker 1: is very rare. You know that that speaks to his
Speaker 1: willingness and his openness to reinvent himself at each thirty.
Speaker 3: You know that's that's not you don't find that very often.
Speaker 2: That's interesting that you said that you don't, because because
Speaker 2: it does feel looking from the outside, looking in you
Speaker 2: you encounter far more baseball players than Russell and I do, Kyle.
Speaker 2: But it feels more common even than like four or
Speaker 2: five years ago for guys to have that humility and
Speaker 2: open mindedness than even relatively recently.
Speaker 1: It is, yeah, and it is true that people are
Speaker 1: more open, but it's you know, Robert's throwing completely differently,
Speaker 1: which I think is pretty rare.
Speaker 3: Most people are just like.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna add a cutter, and that's that's willingness to show,
Speaker 1: which you know that that's good, that's a good thing,
Speaker 1: but you know it is.
Speaker 3: And that's where I think I've said this before.
Speaker 1: It's like the rise of video games and like you know,
Speaker 1: being I'm forty one, when I was playing video games
Speaker 1: growing up here nerds an outcast type thing. Today it's
Speaker 1: like that's what we do. Whether that's good or bad,
Speaker 1: I don't know. But more importantly is like everyone plays
Speaker 1: some sort of video game growing up, whether they do
Speaker 1: now or not is not relevant. But they're used to
Speaker 1: the gamification of society. They're used to a gamer score,
Speaker 1: are used to a leaderboard, they're used to competing.
Speaker 3: You know, data has been thrown at them in all forms.
Speaker 3: I've killed death Ratio.
Speaker 1: And Call of Duty to Bettle Royale and Fortnite, you know,
Speaker 1: all these other things, Like these things are part of
Speaker 1: their brain. And then as a result, it's less difficult
Speaker 1: to get them to make quantitative data driven decisions because
Speaker 1: they've grown up around data their whole life. And so
Speaker 1: like adding a pitch, so I've done that in MLB
Speaker 1: the show, or I've done this. You know, it's like
Speaker 1: those things they matter, they really do matter. And MLB
Speaker 1: publicizing biomechanics in the way they do. You know, it's
Speaker 1: not about biomechanics, but a lot of times you see
Speaker 1: Mike Petriella on these guys tweet on videos or tango
Speaker 1: of the bat tracking or player tracking right the skeletons
Speaker 1: and whatever, and is.
Speaker 3: That, uh, you know, I hope it's a good marketing
Speaker 3: angle for MLB. I do think it is. I think
Speaker 3: it helps reach fans, that's ee, the digital age of baseball.
Speaker 1: That is good but also importantly, players see it and
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, that's that's possible, you know, that's that's
Speaker 1: it's possible that we can track these things.
Speaker 3: It's possible, and that these things.
Speaker 1: You know, can be used for entertainment value because that's
Speaker 1: what MLB cares most about, is the entertainment value, and
Speaker 1: they should. But then it turns out that that just
Speaker 1: allows their brain to be like, well, if we can
Speaker 1: track player movement, if we can track picture movement, how
Speaker 1: can we how could I use that to be better?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: And that's all these little things that kind of snowball,
Speaker 1: just like talking back to the Freedman conversation, that cause
Speaker 1: some players to be a little more open because it's
Speaker 1: not a coach telling them, it's their own idea derived
Speaker 1: from MLB's marketing, from you know, things they see in
Speaker 1: their life.
Speaker 3: And I think that's where that's I think that's the biggest.
Speaker 1: Driver of a lot of the change in the conversations
Speaker 1: we have with players is they're significantly more open, and
Speaker 1: they can't really cite why they're more open, and I
Speaker 1: think it's just because of the environment they put them,
Speaker 1: we put them in.
Speaker 4: So I think drive line constantly is at the forefront
Speaker 4: of the technology which we're seeing being used like in MLB.
Speaker 4: You literally just talk about the motion capture stuff that
Speaker 4: MLB are doing. But it's like you've from our form
Speaker 4: what we've seen been some of the first people that
Speaker 4: talk about force plates, talking about like open the biomechanics
Speaker 4: and stuff like that. How do you it's obviously might
Speaker 4: not be you might be within drive line yourselves. How
Speaker 4: do you see like the potential in all of these
Speaker 4: like different technologies. Are you guys like trying fifty different
Speaker 4: things and we're not hearing about like forty seven of them,
Speaker 4: and then we're hearing about the three things that go
Speaker 4: on to like revolutionize the game. What's that kind of
Speaker 4: like model of like introducing a new piece of technology
Speaker 4: and a new data point like the drive line.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's tough because you know, force plates and motion gaps,
Speaker 1: all these things have been around for a long time.
Speaker 3: We haven't really invented to many of that stuff.
Speaker 1: But I was working with an NFL team last year
Speaker 1: and we had some motion gaps and stuff, and I
Speaker 1: showed a quarterback who were working out some arm strength
Speaker 1: with one of the quarterbacks in the NFL.
Speaker 3: A couple of em mentionally for this team.
Speaker 1: And the quarterback coach was like, you know, well we've
Speaker 1: done this before and see this is like you know,
Speaker 1: they're wearing sensors and it's not representative of you know, of.
Speaker 3: The game, right, and then that's true, you know.
Speaker 1: I was like, you're wearing all these sensors and you're
Speaker 1: pitching off this turf mount and you're not throwing to
Speaker 1: a hitter. How much you how much are that really
Speaker 1: transfers to the game? And I said, no, in this case,
Speaker 1: you know, this is a this is a three step
Speaker 1: drop with a one hitch timing and whatever. And he
Speaker 1: was like, oh, like you you know stuff about football
Speaker 1: and I was like, look, I know enough to know
Speaker 1: about environment design.
Speaker 3: I don't actually know anything about, you know, being a quarterback.
Speaker 1: And so he was like taking a back and he
Speaker 1: was like okay, then he was willing to buy in.
Speaker 3: Immediately.
Speaker 1: The coach was like, oh, oh, totally, it makes sense.
Speaker 1: And that's where I think a lot of this stuff
Speaker 1: falls flat, is you have to the stuff has to
Speaker 1: be representative. It has to look like baseball and being
Speaker 1: half naked and wearing forty three sensors and throwing eighty
Speaker 1: seven miles an hour, and then taking that information and
Speaker 1: trying to be like, hey, your mechanics suck. You need
Speaker 1: to do things better. You know, Innately, the player may
Speaker 1: not understand her, the coach of the organization may not
Speaker 1: exactly know why that doesn't make sense, but they know
Speaker 1: something is not right, you know, And so being able
Speaker 1: to design an environment that is way more representative of
Speaker 1: what they're doing is the biggest thing. I think drive
Speaker 1: Line is breaking out. And I think the biggest person
Speaker 1: that deserves the most credit is Rachel Balkovic, who you
Speaker 1: know is now the farm director of the Miami Marlins,
Speaker 1: and she was a manager for Yankees when she worked
Speaker 1: for drive Line. I've known Rachel for a long time,
Speaker 1: but when she worked the drive Line, she challenged She's like,
Speaker 1: why do these why do we accept that these players
Speaker 1: throw slower in the lab than they do in the game.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, well, they just do.
Speaker 1: And she's like why, you know, And she really pushed
Speaker 1: hard on it, and we really redesigned the environment under
Speaker 1: her toolch to no, that's not true. Now players throw
Speaker 1: as hard in the lab here as that they do
Speaker 1: in games, and that makes our data significantly better, it
Speaker 1: makes them buy in more.
Speaker 3: And now, certainly we've tried a million things that don't work.
Speaker 3: I can tell you that.
Speaker 1: But I like tweating about the stuff that doesn't work
Speaker 1: because I think I think it's good marketing to show
Speaker 1: that we're we're trying a lot of things.
Speaker 3: But yeah, there's there's there's so many things.
Speaker 1: That's the biggest problem now is that we've almost all
Speaker 1: the easy gains from motion capture and biomechanics are done,
Speaker 1: you know, like it put put very simply and kind
Speaker 1: of concretely, if motion capture me let me take a
Speaker 1: position or some of my haters, because I think it's
Speaker 1: because I do think it's a good one. Actually, you know,
Speaker 1: if biomechanics labs and motion capture and stat cast and
Speaker 1: all this stuff was good for pitching, then why are
Speaker 1: Tommy John surgeries and surgeries going up at a higher and.
Speaker 3: Higher rate than they ever have? Right? Okay, whether that's
Speaker 3: true or not, I think that it might not actually be.
Speaker 1: True that elbow surgeries are going up, but certainly there's
Speaker 1: a lot of them, right, they haven't gone down, Like
Speaker 1: we can say that and you can point to things like, well,
Speaker 1: what we've what strength and conditioning and modern strength and
Speaker 1: conditioning and labs have done a good job of It's like,
Speaker 1: how many shoulder.
Speaker 3: Injuries do you hear of these days? And the answer
Speaker 3: is like, quite quite a few.
Speaker 1: There's very few shoulder like but back when I was
Speaker 1: growing up, shoulder injuries were at least as common as
Speaker 1: elbow injuries and probably more common.
Speaker 3: You know, that really ruined people's lives.
Speaker 1: Well, we've learned a lot about how to treat the
Speaker 1: shoulder and get it in a much better position. So
Speaker 1: as a result, players that may have injured their shoulder
Speaker 1: now they don't. That's good, but that doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: they don't. Also, you know, they may go on to
Speaker 1: injure their elbow instead. Right, But that incremental gain of
Speaker 1: protecting the elbow that hasn't happened. Right, We have done
Speaker 1: a good job of eradicating you know, shoulder injuries almost
Speaker 1: entirely out of this game. But like elbow injuries seem
Speaker 1: to be very difficult to solve. So if it were
Speaker 1: the case that these motion capture labs and biomechanics labs
Speaker 1: and stuff were working on could impact elbow injuries in
Speaker 1: a positive way, it hasn't happened yet, right, And so
Speaker 1: my view on it is that if these labs that
Speaker 1: we've built and others have built and people are starting
Speaker 1: to build, if those things were going to improve injury
Speaker 1: rates to the elbow, then they would have already, that's
Speaker 1: my opinion, and so we need to do something completely different,
Speaker 1: and that is that's what we've been working on for about,
Speaker 1: I don't know, eight years, and we've been failing at
Speaker 1: it for eight years. But we have a new model
Speaker 1: of thinking about biomechanics, which we're pretty close on.
Speaker 3: I say that who knows, but there's a new way
Speaker 3: of modeling.
Speaker 1: I think energy flow and muscle composition and things that
Speaker 1: I think do does have a real chance to improve
Speaker 1: elbow injuries. But that's a whole other podcast we can
Speaker 1: talk about some other time. But yeah, like I do
Speaker 1: like your question. I think has a very interesting answer.
Speaker 1: Simple answer that's baked into the question is like, you
Speaker 1: know what has been failing. It's like, well, with the
Speaker 1: rapid rise of technology and everything else, in elbow injury
Speaker 1: rates have not gotten any better over the last ten years.
Speaker 1: Arguably they've gotten worse. I don't know that that's the case,
Speaker 1: but we can definitely say they have not gotten better.
Speaker 1: So and it's not like we don't care about injuries. Obviously,
Speaker 1: Driveline does. MLB cares a lot, the union cares a lot,
Speaker 1: the players care a lot, the teams care, fans care,
Speaker 1: like everyone cares that people are getting hurt. And despite
Speaker 1: all that and all the research and all the money
Speaker 1: going to it, we have not made a lot of progress.
Speaker 1: So you know, insanity, right that fake quote by an
Speaker 1: Stein about insanity is doing the same thing over and
Speaker 1: over and.
Speaker 3: Expecting different results.
Speaker 1: Not not a real quote, but it is a good
Speaker 1: one to understand, Like that is what's happening. It is like,
Speaker 1: if if we're going to solve this, solve this elbow
Speaker 1: injury issue, it's not going to be with the tools
Speaker 1: we have today. It's got to be ones that develop
Speaker 1: and for better or worse. Drive Line is really the
Speaker 1: only organization that does do that. We're the only ones
Speaker 1: that are really looking outside the box and trying to
Speaker 1: develop new models.
Speaker 3: And if there's anything to.
Speaker 1: Be arrogant about and not modest, that's probably the thing
Speaker 1: that I am the most proud about is that we're
Speaker 1: willing to.
Speaker 3: Take a lot of l's to try to go from
Speaker 3: zero to.
Speaker 1: One in new areas, and other organizations seem not to
Speaker 1: be willing to do it.
Speaker 4: No, that's that's that's amazing to hear. I think from
Speaker 4: being an analyst on the outside, seeing all of the
Speaker 4: stuff that you guys put out from in the open
Speaker 4: book open biomechanics stuff is amazing to see that kind
Speaker 4: of like you're not just trying to create something proprietary
Speaker 4: here that all like save you guys. It's like if
Speaker 4: this does work, we'll want to want to get it
Speaker 4: to work for the whole like indus. I guess then,
Speaker 4: is like what skill sets of LEN had to be
Speaker 4: like brought into drive line that like didn't exist anymore.
Speaker 4: You've now got this motion capture stuff which can tell
Speaker 4: you that energy flow can tell you things about the
Speaker 4: muscle or whatever. Like do you now need to hire
Speaker 4: out like biomedicine like PhD students to understand actually like
Speaker 4: how the muscles are working in this kind of like
Speaker 4: kinetic flow, which you wouldn't have been focusing on to
Speaker 4: maybe four years ago.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a college dropout, so you know I'm not
Speaker 1: you know, I gotta I've dropped out twice from undergrad yeah,
Speaker 1: that's not very good. But so yeah, we do need
Speaker 1: to bring in some expertise. But it's why I tweet
Speaker 1: a lot about AI. I just tweet about it today
Speaker 1: because deep Seak released an open source model. And the
Speaker 1: reason I tweeted about it a lot is because the
Speaker 1: type of employee we need I really don't know. Because
Speaker 1: I don't. It's hard to explain, like, we're so much
Speaker 1: more productive with the I tools that we have at
Speaker 1: drive Line. It's crazy to watch these midje The organization's
Speaker 1: not embrace it to get a lot better at these things.
Speaker 3: Because we're about to ship.
Speaker 1: I've tweeted about it recently, but there'll be a blog
Speaker 1: post coming out. So we're going to ship a battracking
Speaker 1: model from a single camera and from a single side
Speaker 1: view camera, we can accurately track bat speed and attack angle,
Speaker 1: which seems impossible from a two D camera, but we
Speaker 1: can because we fine tuned models and did a lot
Speaker 1: of experimentation. And so it'd be like, oh, they must
Speaker 1: be computer vision experts. Well, I've dropped out twice. I
Speaker 1: have no inform I have known specific knowledge of computer vision.
Speaker 3: But more importantly, I didn't work on that model. I
Speaker 3: basically just oversaw it.
Speaker 1: And the two people that worked on it, one of
Speaker 1: them plays for the Washington Nationals and is in a
Speaker 1: ball Adam Blowbomb, who'stud Now he's a college graduate.
Speaker 3: He's very smart. He studied biophysics in.
Speaker 1: College, so you know that is true that he has
Speaker 1: some knowledge but nothing in computer vision. And then the
Speaker 1: other person that works on it is a coach for
Speaker 1: the Dodgers, Clayton Thompson. And so both of those guys
Speaker 1: part time like develop a computer vision tracking model that's
Speaker 1: going to be exceptionally accurate and the best on the
Speaker 1: market that we use in our launch pad to help
Speaker 1: reduce the amount of technology and allow our hitting coaches
Speaker 1: to just coach rather than run these technology systems. And
Speaker 1: so I sail that because it doesn't necessarily answer your question.
Speaker 1: But it's like, who would have predicted that a guy
Speaker 1: with an MBA who is a strength coach and a
Speaker 1: player who pitches for the a ball team for the
Speaker 1: Nationals that don't They don't have any experienced computer science,
Speaker 1: neither of them.
Speaker 3: Neither of them.
Speaker 1: I don't think either of them really wrote any code
Speaker 1: before they started working at drive Line found this passion
Speaker 1: project and I've given them the resources and I've kind
Speaker 1: of guided them because I do have a lot of
Speaker 1: knowledge of computer science just broadly, so I helped kind
Speaker 1: of guide their learning. But I've I'm not responsible for
Speaker 1: any of that. Like they've they've shipped all that, and
Speaker 1: the blog they write is going to be they write it,
Speaker 1: I'll help edit it. And so I say that to
Speaker 1: be like, you know, that's who we're looking for a
Speaker 1: drive line. But what is that kind of person? I
Speaker 1: wish I could tell you.
Speaker 3: I don't know. It's hard to know.
Speaker 1: These tools that exist these days with Google and AI
Speaker 1: are so powerful that they let sufficiently motivated people create
Speaker 1: amazing things. And that was a big reason to launch
Speaker 1: the Open Biomechanics Initiative, is to be like, hey, we
Speaker 1: want to give all this open source information away.
Speaker 3: Kyle Wasserberger deserves all the credit for that. I just
Speaker 3: kind of helped facilitate it.
Speaker 1: You know, he obviously works for Boston now, but you know,
Speaker 1: seeing people use this data and transform it because there
Speaker 1: wasn't anything like that, right, there was no open data
Speaker 1: that you could use.
Speaker 3: All these papers were published and then they hold on
Speaker 3: to the data.
Speaker 1: They don't keep it open a lot of it is
Speaker 1: due to ethics things that the universities aren't allowed to
Speaker 1: release the data I get that. You know, for us,
Speaker 1: we were able to anonymize it and send it out
Speaker 1: and so then your average college to our hope is
Speaker 1: that the average like you know, there's this nineteen year
Speaker 1: old kid who goes to a state school has to
Speaker 1: work full time job, just.
Speaker 3: Like I didn't.
Speaker 1: Didn't come up with a lot of money, and they
Speaker 1: in their spare time, you know, they don't have time
Speaker 1: to run a lab and collect data on twelve pitchers
Speaker 1: from the college team.
Speaker 3: You know that even want to do it.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, no, they can get this database
Speaker 1: that it's the same data that we look at and
Speaker 1: analyze it with AI tools or whatever, and they need
Speaker 1: not be American, right like anyone that loves baseball in
Speaker 1: any other country or any other you know, knowledge these
Speaker 1: tools are so cheap and so available to use our
Speaker 1: data to maybe come.
Speaker 3: Up with some really interesting models. And that has happened.
Speaker 1: And that's why we push it because one, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: good for baseball, but make no mistake, if there's a
Speaker 1: selfish angle here is like if we release this open
Speaker 1: source information and people transform it, like, you know, we
Speaker 1: have a much better idea who we might want to
Speaker 1: hire in the future as well.
Speaker 3: And bring on.
Speaker 2: I want to ask a couple of questions Kyle about
Speaker 2: your time working in and with major league clubs. So
Speaker 2: the first is sort of a general view of what's
Speaker 2: evolved from a sort of organization level in terms of
Speaker 2: their approach to pitching and the way it sort of
Speaker 2: encapsulate this is it sort of feels as though. And
Speaker 2: we talked a lot about player centric customization over the
Speaker 2: course of this conversation, but that does seem to be
Speaker 2: the load staff for Like I was listening to Justin
Speaker 2: Willard's great podcast with Socks Prospects earlier this week, and
Speaker 2: he was talking about that the time of sort of
Speaker 2: pitching philosophies. You know, we pitched back to front or
Speaker 2: we you know, first pitched fastballs. That that's kind of
Speaker 2: gone now, right, Everyone is now very much on board
Speaker 2: the same train from play eccentric customization or is it
Speaker 2: more of a blend of both.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Willard is the man, known him forever, you know,
Speaker 1: obviously really lucky to work with him.
Speaker 3: It's what I really pushed in Cincinnati.
Speaker 1: I can just say, when I was in charge, the
Speaker 1: biggest thing that mattered to me was not the analytical approach,
Speaker 1: was not you know, etra trying to contract man. The
Speaker 1: most important thing was the culture and the environment that
Speaker 1: we built. And I'm proud of it because when one
Speaker 1: of my players, Spencer Stockton, I would guess, almost no
Speaker 1: one knows who.
Speaker 3: You finished up in Triple A.
Speaker 1: He was an un drafted signe nineteen, I believe, and
Speaker 1: he was just filling in and he's never pitching the
Speaker 1: big leagues and he's retired and he works at Cressy
Speaker 1: Performance now. But I was in Tampa a couple of
Speaker 1: months ago building out our facility and I had Spencer
Speaker 1: stop by and he talked to our employees about like,
Speaker 1: you know, I said, you know, I want you to
Speaker 1: tell if you know Spencer, you make it to know
Speaker 1: him someday. He's very honest, Spencer, And that's some really
Speaker 1: ridiculous arguments in our past. But I wanted Spencer to
Speaker 1: just talk about the environment with Cincinnati and what he
Speaker 1: got out of it. And he was very open and
Speaker 1: he's like, you know, the thing that matter the most
Speaker 1: was not like was was that was we built an
Speaker 1: environment everyone was held accountable, and that I treated Spencer
Speaker 1: and Randy Winn and all these other non drafts are free.
Speaker 1: I treated them the exact same I traded Nicolodolo and
Speaker 1: Hunter Green and Graham Ashcraft and all these other players.
Speaker 1: And that's where you have to start. Because in baseball
Speaker 1: right now, I mean, the list is public what everyone
Speaker 1: signed for where they were drafted. But the players know, right,
Speaker 1: and it's ridiculous to assume that like a player that
Speaker 1: signs for a dollar is going to get the same
Speaker 1: opportunities as someone who signed for ten million.
Speaker 3: Everyone understands this, and that's true. There's nothing you can
Speaker 3: really do about that. But then being said, like equality
Speaker 3: of how you coach these players and build the environment
Speaker 3: and hold them to standards, that's maybe not the case
Speaker 3: in most organizations. It definitely is not the case in
Speaker 3: the vast majority of organizations. And that's hard to transform
Speaker 3: that because people kind of think I just be for myself.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, okay, like I think that the non
Speaker 1: drafted free agents will be will like the fact that
Speaker 1: I treat them all the same, like that's better than
Speaker 1: where they've been. But it turns out that the prospects
Speaker 1: don't like being treated like special cases either, right. They
Speaker 1: want you know, equality, They want to know that everyone's
Speaker 1: being held account They want to be held accountable if they're
Speaker 1: a good player, they do, and Willard does.
Speaker 3: An extremely good job of that.
Speaker 1: But that was something I cared a lot about, which
Speaker 1: is always kind of surprising to people. The other they
Speaker 1: think it's like, oh, like spin rates and stuff plus
Speaker 1: and these models, and make no mistake, we use them
Speaker 1: quite a bit with the Reds. But none of that
Speaker 1: matters until you can truly, you know, level the playing
Speaker 1: field in terms of opportunity and hold people accountable. And
Speaker 1: what I found out with the Dodgers when I was
Speaker 1: there is like, when those non prospects start passing up
Speaker 1: the prospects, that that's.
Speaker 3: The best teaching moment that you can have.
Speaker 1: Is that like, okay, maybe I should be more of
Speaker 1: a minded or like, you know, they really do care about,
Speaker 1: you know, the fortieth rounder as much.
Speaker 3: As they care about the first rounder.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: And that's I learned.
Speaker 1: That's the big thing I learned from La Interistin is
Speaker 1: that the best organizations are built that way and not
Speaker 1: from oh yeah, the best organizations don't look at prospect lists,
Speaker 1: you know, fangraphs and baseball perspectives in Baseball America, like
Speaker 1: they don't don't.
Speaker 3: Care about like who appears on these lists. I can
Speaker 3: tell you that. You know, in Boston it's like.
Speaker 1: Oh, who do we like Marcella Mayor more than Christian Campbell,
Speaker 1: more than Romanante?
Speaker 3: Who don't care?
Speaker 1: Don't care like you know, it's it's it's just how
Speaker 1: do we get them better and how do we make
Speaker 1: them big league assets?
Speaker 3: And that that's it.
Speaker 1: That doesn't that where where someone is on a list
Speaker 1: is is very that matters to really bad organizations, and
Speaker 1: it did. It doesn't matter to the best ones.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, I wish I wish it mattered
Speaker 2: less to more fans.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand from the fans, but it's just like fans,
Speaker 1: how are they how are they supposed to enjoy that?
Speaker 1: You know? It's like, so I fans want a list,
Speaker 1: they want to see what's coming up. And I don't
Speaker 1: think it's bad. I don't think the lists are bad.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's bad at all. But it's like
Speaker 1: it has to be entertainment value, you know, so like
Speaker 1: that's that's what it's for, and it's good for entertainment value.
Speaker 1: It's good for a fansautic captain because they can't spend
Speaker 1: twenty hours a week learning about the best players.
Speaker 3: In Portland, you know or Greenville. Like it's just ridiculous.
Speaker 2: No, everyone is not everyone is me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, less expect that people care about that, you know,
Speaker 1: And so I don't get too mad about it, but internally,
Speaker 1: like it does, you know, and and fans do get
Speaker 1: a glimpse of it because like you're like, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: tune in and watch the NLCS or whatever.
Speaker 3: It's like, who is Ben Cospiraus? Who is that guy?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 3: And it's like he's starting a game for the Dodgers.
Speaker 1: You know, we spent five hundred million on pictures and
Speaker 1: Ben Conspirace has to pitch.
Speaker 3: It's like he's pretty good actually, you know.
Speaker 1: It's like, how do you transform these players that maybe
Speaker 1: no one's heard of, it never appeared on the top
Speaker 1: thirty list, and then they're pitching in meaningful games. And
Speaker 1: that's the sign of a healthy organization. That's the side
Speaker 1: of a dominant organization. And that's the Dodgers. You know,
Speaker 1: we talk and complain about how much they spend, but
Speaker 1: you know, it matters that Ben Consparis is good for them.
Speaker 1: It matters that these players are you know that see
Speaker 1: these guys can can contribute meaningful innings because you know,
Speaker 1: as you've seen signing, the players get hurt and progression happens.
Speaker 1: So being able to have really strong depth is very important.
Speaker 2: And I'm interested like just sort of bringing it right
Speaker 2: up today in your career with the Red Sox, what
Speaker 2: if anything is is different working in an environment that's
Speaker 2: that's led by a guy who has been an incredibly
Speaker 2: successful player in his own right. You know, we've talked
Speaker 2: about Andrew Friedman. You worked under neck krawl at the Reds.
Speaker 2: Definitely now incredibly intelligent, smart, brilliant baseball minds. But is
Speaker 2: there anything different between these guys in Craig Breslow because
Speaker 2: you have Craig wrestlers, Wilter is winning pitcher in he's.
Speaker 1: Own running Yeah, indie ballplayer too released, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of difference.
Speaker 1: There's a big reason I had many opportunities to sign,
Speaker 1: you know, as a special advisor assistant. You know, I
Speaker 1: took a year off and just wasn't right two years actually,
Speaker 1: and then when Brez reached out.
Speaker 3: I was really down the line with a team.
Speaker 1: I was probably like a week from signing with another
Speaker 1: team and with a player that was running the team,
Speaker 1: and you know, Brez kind of jumped in and really
Speaker 1: made the pitch and it was a big difference.
Speaker 3: You could tell that. I could tell that, like, Okay,
Speaker 3: this is going to be different. How how he wants
Speaker 3: to run a Red Sox and he had enough he
Speaker 3: went to Yale.
Speaker 1: He's very smart, you know, he has enough business acumen
Speaker 1: on how to run an organization, which is important to
Speaker 1: me because Dick Williams was one of the best people
Speaker 1: I ever worked for in Cincinnati.
Speaker 3: He was awesome. But I saying that didn't care about culture.
Speaker 3: He really cared. But it was like Craig's been in
Speaker 3: the clubhouse.
Speaker 1: He understands, like innately how to treat these players and
Speaker 1: what we're trying to build, and culture is really important
Speaker 1: to them, Like it's reflected in the free agent signings
Speaker 1: that we do make and don't make, and that we
Speaker 1: tried to really care about. Because two of our best
Speaker 1: pictures are Rule five pictures, and that's justin Slayton and
Speaker 1: that's Gara Whitlock, you know, and it's a lot of
Speaker 1: players where there was Cambooser. You know, we wish them
Speaker 1: the best. Obviously he's moved on, but like guys like
Speaker 1: that really mattered to the organization. You know that may
Speaker 1: have been not the biggest prospects or whatever, or we're
Speaker 1: forgotten or left off lists. That's a really good culture
Speaker 1: that you build and we can't screw it up, Like
Speaker 1: we need to make sure that we have a growth
Speaker 1: mindset and build you know what is hopefully going to be,
Speaker 1: you know, the Red Sox juggernaut and adding on those
Speaker 1: free agents and adding on and spending. But you really
Speaker 1: can't screw up that culture because no amount of money
Speaker 1: can fix that, no amount of you know, free agents.
Speaker 1: You have to be really mindful of the coaches bring in.
Speaker 1: And Andrew Bailey is incredible with that Alex Cora, what's
Speaker 1: there to say, you know, I mean he's the man, right,
Speaker 1: so those things are really important to them and we're
Speaker 1: what it's sometimes loss is in the front office.
Speaker 3: The culture or you know, the intangibles are like secondary
Speaker 3: things or maybe they don't care at all, right, but
Speaker 3: sometimes maybe it's just secondary thing. For Bres and these guys,
Speaker 3: it's a primary thing I really care about it. It's
Speaker 3: it's hard to quantify, maybe impossible to quantify, but it
Speaker 3: doesn't make it not important.
Speaker 1: It's not all about winds above replacement. It's not all
Speaker 1: about dollars for wins above replacement. It's about the culture
Speaker 1: that you said, and how do we build this and
Speaker 1: do something that's going to last a long time. And
Speaker 1: I think that that's what I'm really really excited about.
Speaker 1: So my renegotiations for twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: When I signed my contract, I was like, I want
Speaker 3: to come back. I want a very small percentage raise
Speaker 3: and let's just get this done. And Bres It's like
Speaker 3: all right.
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't really want to, like act
Speaker 1: like I'm going to go somewhere else, Like I just
Speaker 1: want to.
Speaker 3: I want to be here for the next couple of
Speaker 3: years and build it.
Speaker 1: And yeah, he's arened my loyalty for sure, and I
Speaker 1: hope hopefully I've done the same.
Speaker 4: No, that's that's amazing, Cale, And thank you so much
Speaker 4: for everything you've told us today.
Speaker 2: It's been fascinating.
Speaker 3: Just got one final question.
Speaker 4: I was initially going to ask you, like what advice
Speaker 4: you would give to young coaches or players who were
Speaker 4: getting into like a data driven approach is what they
Speaker 4: were doing. But I feel from like what we've discussed today,
Speaker 4: and I don't want to preempt your answer to that,
Speaker 4: it's like, but is it actually still treat the game
Speaker 4: like it's fun. Still treat the game like you enjoy yourself.
Speaker 4: You don't have to get lost in the numbers when
Speaker 4: you're fourteen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's definitely a big part. But you also have
Speaker 3: to go coach.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people that want to work in
Speaker 1: pro ball that have never coached before, you know, and
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, I'll go work at a facility. I'll go,
Speaker 1: And that's fine, you can work a drive line, but
Speaker 1: you also got to go coach a team because for
Speaker 1: as much fun as people make, like, oh, I can't
Speaker 1: believe they're bunting and these people are so stupid and
Speaker 1: they're bunting and giving away out. I promise you the
Speaker 1: only way you can understand it is you can be
Speaker 1: the smartest guy most analytically that I read moneyball, believe
Speaker 1: in all of that. But until you go coach, you
Speaker 1: don't know what it's like to be a manager. You
Speaker 1: have runners on first in secon and you're down by
Speaker 1: one and you have a hitter that sucks up there
Speaker 1: and you don't know what it's like to because it's
Speaker 1: like the green Goblin.
Speaker 3: Mask is calling. It's like you should bun here.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's like you never you don't even believe it, but
Speaker 1: you can hear it, you can feel it. And so
Speaker 1: until you've gone and done experienced it, you know something
Speaker 1: is terrible, as like if you coach long enough, someone's
Speaker 1: gonna you know, someone's gonna need surgery, someone's gonna hurt
Speaker 1: their arm, and then how do you deal with that?
Speaker 1: You know, like I can still remember the first person
Speaker 1: was mad Mercer, you know, and then you know, crying
Speaker 1: in an office with them, and you know, because it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's an injury, like because for fans, and that's what
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say bothers me, but it's it's hard for
Speaker 1: them to understand. And you know it's like, oh, so
Speaker 1: and so I had Tommy John and he'll be back
Speaker 1: in sixteen months, but it's like, you know what it's
Speaker 1: like for sixteen months, Like what it's like for that guy,
Speaker 1: Like it's it's not just.
Speaker 3: This, oh I'm losing money or whatever it's in an island.
Speaker 3: You're banished to the complex. You show up at seven am,
Speaker 3: you do your rehab stuff. You're done by ten and
Speaker 3: that's it. There's no team, you don't play games, and
Speaker 3: every day is Groundhog Day. You show up, you do
Speaker 3: the same life intensity exercises. Your arm hurts sometimes a
Speaker 3: dozen other times you do do I want to retire?
Speaker 3: Do I still want to do this?
Speaker 1: And going through that with someone will give you such
Speaker 1: an appreciation for how important it is that we continue
Speaker 1: to make progress and human condition.
Speaker 3: Really, so, my biggest advice is, like, you have to
Speaker 3: go coach a team.
Speaker 1: Specifically, you can't just go coach individuals. You have to
Speaker 1: understand team dynamics. You have to go coach a team,
Speaker 1: and then all your great plans on how to use
Speaker 1: blast anensors in motion capture will immediately be put to
Speaker 1: the test and none of them are going to work.
Speaker 1: That's good because like you figure out, how does your plan?
Speaker 1: No plan survives contact with the enemy, as they say,
Speaker 1: you know, so go coach, Go coach.
Speaker 2: No amazing, kids love that. Kyle, Thanks so much for
Speaker 2: your time. If people aren't following you, they're probably living
Speaker 2: under a rock in baseball line. But where can people
Speaker 2: find the tweets, the blogs, all of the open source
Speaker 2: information that you guys are drive line is sharing just
Speaker 2: a few months.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for base for chess at drive line, Kyle, I
Speaker 1: tweet a lot about chess, that's great.
Speaker 3: But if you're less interested in chess, say ad drive
Speaker 3: line BB is.
Speaker 1: The corporate account, and I don't run that because you know,
Speaker 1: I have some twenty year olds that are way better
Speaker 1: at the Internet than me, so they do that. So
Speaker 1: and then driveline baseball dot com. And then for the
Speaker 1: open sort of stuff, you can just search open by
Speaker 1: Mechanics on GitHub or openbi mechanics dot org. And we're
Speaker 1: always releasing more and more stuff computer vision, I performance,
Speaker 1: pitching and hitting or all in there as well.
Speaker 2: Awesome, Thanks so much for your time call. It's an
Speaker 2: absolutely amazing conversation.
Speaker 3: All right, Thanks guys, and I appreciate it.