1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 15 00:00:43,399 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:45,079 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 5: We're joined today by Caroline Fraser, author of Murderland Crime 17 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,759 and Bloodlust in the Time of serial Killers, here to 18 00:00:52,799 --> 00:00:56,399 talk to us about her new book and her amazing 19 00:00:56,479 --> 00:01:00,960 research into serial killers and the link with industrial Caroline, 20 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:02,200 thank you for joining us today. 21 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 3: We are so thrilled to have you. Thank you excited 22 00:01:05,719 --> 00:01:06,239 to be here. 23 00:01:06,799 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 5: Can you start by telling us a little bit about 24 00:01:08,599 --> 00:01:11,799 your life as a writer, and about your previous books, 25 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,000 especially about your amazing book Prairie Fires, which is another 26 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:16,200 one of my favorite. 27 00:01:16,359 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 6: Oh sure, yeah. My previous book was Prairie Fires, a 28 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,640 biography of Laura Ingles Wilder, which was pretty heavy and 29 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:30,079 the history and the ecological connections between her life and 30 00:01:30,239 --> 00:01:33,400 the settlement of the Great Plains. And I had a 31 00:01:33,439 --> 00:01:38,280 lot of fun working with that material. I had written 32 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:43,000 about ecology and the environment before in another previous book 33 00:01:43,079 --> 00:01:46,599 called Rewilding the World, and that's when I started to 34 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:50,599 learn about some of these connections. And you'll see that, 35 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,840 even though Murderland is obviously a very different book than 36 00:01:54,959 --> 00:01:58,439 Prairie Fires, I think you will see if you read it, 37 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:03,159 kind of through line of that ecological history between all 38 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:04,879 three of those books. 39 00:02:05,239 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 2: One of the things I'm really curious about is you've 40 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:11,400 been a successful writer for a number of years. The 41 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,599 environment a bit of a through line, certainly. I think 42 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:18,680 social consciousness is part of your writing as well. How 43 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,639 do we get from there to serial killers? It's not 44 00:02:21,719 --> 00:02:23,120 like you're a true crime author. 45 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,599 Speaker 6: Oh that's true. And I think all I can say 46 00:02:26,599 --> 00:02:29,039 about that is that this is something that I have 47 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,000 been interested in for a really long time because I'm 48 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:37,560 from the Pacific Northwest, and this question that has been 49 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,919 hanging out there for all these years, of why are 50 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,759 there so many serial killers in the Pacific Northwest has 51 00:02:44,879 --> 00:02:49,360 just been something that has always fascinated me, in part 52 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,080 because when I was growing up there, it was in 53 00:02:52,159 --> 00:02:56,960 the seventies and the whole Ted Bundy thing was happening, 54 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,360 and so that was before anybody knew who that was. 55 00:03:02,159 --> 00:03:09,120 I was reading about those disappearances and abductions and murders 56 00:03:09,159 --> 00:03:13,960 in the newspapers and just being both riveted and terrified 57 00:03:14,199 --> 00:03:17,439 by the whole phenomenon. I don't think anybody really knew 58 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,639 what to make of it then, and so this has 59 00:03:20,759 --> 00:03:24,400 been with me for a long time. And after I 60 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:29,400 wrote Prairie Fires, COVID happened a couple years later, and 61 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,000 I was stuck at home and had a lot of 62 00:03:33,039 --> 00:03:36,080 time to just play around on the internet and look 63 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,520 for stuff, and I started looking into this question in 64 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,560 part because I had already written a few little pieces 65 00:03:45,159 --> 00:03:48,319 of what became the book. I didn't really know what 66 00:03:48,479 --> 00:03:50,840 I was going to use them for, but I really 67 00:03:50,879 --> 00:03:52,759 had started at years earlier. 68 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 5: There are, of course, nobody in the True Crime space 69 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,439 who isn't familiar with they named Ted Bundy. There may 70 00:03:59,479 --> 00:04:03,120 be people who were unfamiliar with the glut of serial 71 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:05,680 killers in the area. And in fact, when you opened 72 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,199 the book and you started naming a bunch of names 73 00:04:08,199 --> 00:04:10,240 and serial killers, there were ones that I had to 74 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,319 look up because I wasn't familiar with them. So for 75 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,279 any of our listeners who may be unfamiliar with ones 76 00:04:16,319 --> 00:04:18,879 other than Bundy and the Green River Killer, can you 77 00:04:18,959 --> 00:04:21,600 just run down really quick some of the array of 78 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,600 killers that showed up in the Pacific Northwest during the 79 00:04:24,639 --> 00:04:25,680 seventies and eighties. 80 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 6: Yeah. 81 00:04:26,399 --> 00:04:26,639 Speaker 5: Sure. 82 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 6: On the first page of the book, I give this 83 00:04:29,399 --> 00:04:33,240 list that derived from big feature that ran on the 84 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:37,240 Seattle Post Intelligencer a while back. And those are just 85 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,839 the guys who came up with or the press assigned 86 00:04:40,879 --> 00:04:45,439 them colorful names like the Beast of British Columbia or whatever. 87 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,240 But yes, in the book, I do talk about at 88 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,519 least a dozen of these guys who are operating in 89 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,759 the Northwest during this period. Bundy, Gary Ridgeway, the Green 90 00:04:56,879 --> 00:05:01,560 River Killer, Warren Leslie Forest never got a name of 91 00:05:01,639 --> 00:05:04,920 his own, and most people wouldn't be able to tell 92 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,199 you what he did, but he was operating at the 93 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,920 same time as Bundy, and a lot of his murders 94 00:05:10,959 --> 00:05:14,800 were assigned to Bundy because people just didn't really know 95 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,680 about this guy. There was a man named William Costin 96 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:23,639 who killed several women south of Seattle. Robert Lee Yates, 97 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:29,399 who many people will remember from Spokane, Jack Owen Spilman, 98 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:35,160 the Third Randy Woodfield, the I five Killer, the Hillside Strangler, 99 00:05:35,319 --> 00:05:41,199 ended up in the Northwest after getting started in Los Angeles, Israel. 100 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:47,879 Keyes really horrible guy named Joseph Edward Duncan, cereal rapist 101 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,600 and murderer. And there was even a guy who was 102 00:05:50,639 --> 00:05:54,319 growing up down the street from me on Mercer Island 103 00:05:54,519 --> 00:06:00,439 named George Waterfield Russell Junior. When I started compiling the 104 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,800 evidence for this theory, I was shocked at how many 105 00:06:04,879 --> 00:06:05,279 there were. 106 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,959 Speaker 3: I don't understand, Siri, I was shocked. 107 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 6: Before. 108 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 3: She's always listening. 109 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,519 Speaker 5: One of the most common questions that arises in any 110 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,319 discussion about serial colors is whether it is nature or 111 00:06:23,399 --> 00:06:25,160 nurture that ultimately forms them. 112 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 3: I like the fact that you've taken that. 113 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,199 Speaker 5: Question one step further as your basis from murder Land 114 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,720 and have asked the question about whether environmental factors might have. 115 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 3: A hand in shaping serial colors. 116 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 5: Was it ges during COVID that idea came to you 117 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,319 or had it been percolating for a number of years. 118 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 6: No, it really was in the last during COVID, and 119 00:06:46,959 --> 00:06:49,079 maybe a couple of years earlier than that that. I 120 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:55,199 had discovered some links between the stuff that was going 121 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,759 on in terms of crime, especially in the city of Tacoma, 122 00:06:58,879 --> 00:07:03,879 and an infamous leads and copper smelter that was located 123 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,680 in Tacoma. And I had never anybody who's ever been 124 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,839 to Tacoma knew that it smelled really bad. But it 125 00:07:10,879 --> 00:07:14,720 was a place of incredibly heavy industry, and there was 126 00:07:14,759 --> 00:07:18,759 this thing called the Aroma of Tacoma, which everybody joked 127 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:23,240 about because there were so many factories and refineries and 128 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,240 Poulp mills and all this stuff. But a few years 129 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,839 ago I became aware that this smelter that was there 130 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:36,040 was known for emitting tons and tons of lead particulates 131 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:41,240 and arsenic and these things are not only poisons, but 132 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:47,759 lead is, as you may know, associated with increased violence 133 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,160 and aggression. And I began to wonder about that. Was 134 00:07:51,199 --> 00:07:55,600 there any link between the high crime rate in Tacoma, 135 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,680 which it's the city has also been famous for, and 136 00:08:00,399 --> 00:08:01,319 these emissions. 137 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:06,439 Speaker 2: I was in the skeptical category initially, and Kristen was 138 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,639 a few steps ahead of me, which happens a lot. 139 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,040 At first, I was like, couldn't you make a case 140 00:08:11,079 --> 00:08:14,399 that it's the rainy weather and too much coffee and 141 00:08:14,519 --> 00:08:18,480 other things that the Pacific Northwest is famous for. But 142 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,600 then once you start laying out how bad the industrial 143 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:27,839 pollution was, and there is some significant research into cause 144 00:08:27,839 --> 00:08:33,240 and effect between lead exposure and children, young people struggling 145 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,200 with behavioral issues and violence. So once you start to 146 00:08:37,279 --> 00:08:40,159 make your case, I realized maybe I shouldn't be writing 147 00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:41,120 this off so quickly. 148 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that I'm trying to walk the fine 149 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:49,759 line between assigning too much influence to lead but also 150 00:08:49,879 --> 00:08:55,039 pointing out the significant amount of research that already exists 151 00:08:55,320 --> 00:09:02,159 that does associate lead exposure in children with violence, instability, 152 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,240 aggression in young adults when there's a twenty year lag, 153 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:11,159 and it's been demonstrated in many studies that this is 154 00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:16,480 true that especially in males, it often expresses itself in 155 00:09:16,759 --> 00:09:19,519 and this is all related to the frontal cortex and 156 00:09:20,799 --> 00:09:25,000 certain deficits that people who have this exposure can show 157 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,919 in the development of their brain and also in their behavior. 158 00:09:29,279 --> 00:09:31,879 But that said, there's a lot of other things that 159 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:39,320 doubtless go into creating these incredibly violent individuals. They're often, 160 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:44,120 as the FBI has always said, there's a history of 161 00:09:44,399 --> 00:09:50,000 physical abuse, maybe sexual abuse, even head trauma, something we're 162 00:09:50,039 --> 00:09:55,279 seeing a lot now with the attention to football type injuries. 163 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,360 That people who have head trauma then can develop aggression 164 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,639 in their behavior. So, you know, any kind of individual 165 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:08,320 who's had a really tough childhood, maybe grew up in poverty, 166 00:10:08,399 --> 00:10:12,559 maybe was exposed to violence as a child. The lead 167 00:10:12,799 --> 00:10:17,159 exposure on top of it, I think can maybe hyper 168 00:10:17,799 --> 00:10:20,639 put this into kind of hyper drive or whatever. It 169 00:10:20,639 --> 00:10:25,240 can really increase the likelihood that there might be violence 170 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:26,919 in this individual's behavior. 171 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,159 Speaker 5: You would reference that there is some research out there 172 00:10:31,399 --> 00:10:36,320 about the link between violent behavior and environmental factors. What 173 00:10:36,519 --> 00:10:40,039 material did you find yourself relying most heavily on for 174 00:10:40,159 --> 00:10:42,440 your research as she wrote the book, And one of 175 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,639 my favorite things to do is look at end notes 176 00:10:45,039 --> 00:10:48,600 and bibliographies whenever I read a really interesting book. You 177 00:10:48,879 --> 00:10:52,279 had to have been working with an absolute density of 178 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,720 material here. How much did you rely on and how 179 00:10:55,799 --> 00:10:58,279 much time did you spend researching before you started writing. 180 00:10:58,799 --> 00:11:02,279 Speaker 6: Oh, there are a lot lot of scientific studies out 181 00:11:02,279 --> 00:11:08,600 there and papers. There are whole suites of studies affiliated 182 00:11:08,639 --> 00:11:12,799 with certain scientists. I talk about a couple of these guys, 183 00:11:13,279 --> 00:11:16,879 Claire Patterson, for example, who was at Caltech, who did 184 00:11:16,919 --> 00:11:20,799 a lot of the early LED research, and really pointed 185 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:26,039 out that everybody who's born in this modern era anywhere 186 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:30,159 from World War II to the nineteen eighties, was exposed 187 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,519 to a significant amount of lead just through leaded gasoline, 188 00:11:34,799 --> 00:11:38,679 which of course was for sale until started being withdrawn 189 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,279 in the mid eighties, but is still around in the 190 00:11:42,399 --> 00:11:46,960 US until the early to mid nineties. So everybody's exposed 191 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,080 to that. If you lived near a smelter, you were 192 00:11:50,159 --> 00:11:54,320 probably exposed to much more. There's a lot of research 193 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,559 that went into that that I looked at. There are 194 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,559 a couple of really great books about the street of 195 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:05,080 lead in the US. There's a great book about Flint, Michigan. 196 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,840 More recent things about lead in the water and so forth. 197 00:12:08,919 --> 00:12:11,720 So I spent a lot of time doing that. He said, 198 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,000 how much research do you do before you start writing? 199 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:19,480 And I did quite a bit before, because it was 200 00:12:19,519 --> 00:12:22,919 a pretty steep learning curve for me. I am not 201 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,440 a scientist, not an epidemiologist, and the kind of thing 202 00:12:27,519 --> 00:12:33,080 that I'm writing about is no epidemiologist would ever make 203 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,559 the connection between an individual killer and lead exposure the 204 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,720 way that I'm doing. I chose to try and tell 205 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,559 a story about this by focusing on certain individuals who 206 00:12:45,639 --> 00:12:50,360 lived into Cooma. For instance, Bundy grew up Intocoma, Gary 207 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,440 Ridgeway just a few miles north. So to me, that 208 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,840 was what was interesting, was to try to draw that connection. 209 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,879 But of course it's something that most scientists would not 210 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:01,879 be comfortable with. 211 00:13:02,399 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 2: It sounds like you're comfortable putting out what initially might 212 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,320 feel like a provocative premise and then you actually your 213 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,720 history chops are really showing here when you start to 214 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:18,840 analyze these individuals and the history of their heinous behavior. 215 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,279 But you were comfortable with putting this out there as 216 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:27,000 an interesting and as I said, provocative proposal. 217 00:13:27,519 --> 00:13:27,759 Speaker 5: Yeah. 218 00:13:28,039 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 6: To me, it was the foundation of that was this 219 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,600 map that had been developed in Washington State by the 220 00:13:37,759 --> 00:13:42,919 Department of Ecology, which enables you to look up individual 221 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:48,759 addresses everywhere in Tacoma and in the one thousand square 222 00:13:48,919 --> 00:13:54,279 mile plume of pollution that was produced by this smokestack 223 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,480 at the Esarko Smelter, and the fact that we could 224 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:03,720 pinpoint where, for example, Ted Bundy lived and how much 225 00:14:03,799 --> 00:14:07,639 lead was in his front yard and his backyard. That 226 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,200 made me feel like, Okay, we can take this leap, 227 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,240 even though it is a leap and it is provocative 228 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,080 and I can't prove it. I can't prove that, you know, 229 00:14:18,159 --> 00:14:22,480 what Ted Bundy did was related to lead, but I 230 00:14:22,519 --> 00:14:25,879 can certainly point to the fact that we can see 231 00:14:25,919 --> 00:14:28,799 how much he was exposed to I was even more 232 00:14:28,919 --> 00:14:32,279 struck by this with Gary Ridgway, who I think was 233 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:37,000 exposed in multiple ways. Both as a child, his brother 234 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,039 remembered him playing in a pile of copper tailings, which 235 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:47,279 are completely saturated with these poisons. He grew up just 236 00:14:47,519 --> 00:14:51,399 east of SeaTac Airport and all the jet fuel at 237 00:14:51,399 --> 00:14:54,720 that time was full of lead. He grew up next 238 00:14:54,759 --> 00:14:59,200 to two major highways, another risk factor for lead poisoning, 239 00:14:59,519 --> 00:15:02,679 and he worked as an adult for decades at the 240 00:15:02,759 --> 00:15:08,519 Kenworth Truck Plant, painting the cabs of trucks with paints 241 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,879 that involved with So there's a lot there we can't 242 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,960 necessarily make that leap, especially if we're a scientist. But 243 00:15:17,279 --> 00:15:21,080 I figured I'll tell the story, let people talk about it, 244 00:15:21,519 --> 00:15:26,159 debate it, and maybe this will create a kind of 245 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:32,360 better understanding of the kinds of environmental problems we're creating 246 00:15:32,399 --> 00:15:33,519 for ourselves. 247 00:15:33,799 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 5: I mean, you certainly got numbers on your side. I 248 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:38,440 was just I ended up marking all over the books 249 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,360 I was flipping through while you were talking and trying 250 00:15:40,399 --> 00:15:44,919 to find my highlighted passages. You're referencing the sheer numbers here, 251 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,519 he said, there are fifty five serial killers in nineteen 252 00:15:48,639 --> 00:15:53,200 forty seventy two and nineteen fifty two, seventeen in nineteen sixty, 253 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,480 and by nineteen seventy there are six hundred five by 254 00:15:56,559 --> 00:15:58,480 nineteen eighty seven hundred sixty eight. 255 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,039 Speaker 3: The numbers don't lie. That's incredible. 256 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 5: It was looking at the numbers that made me go, oh, 257 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,919 my god, there really is something here. 258 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,639 Speaker 6: It's very striking. And the other thing that's really eye 259 00:16:10,759 --> 00:16:16,159 popping about those numbers is that rising curve correlates almost 260 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,639 exactly to the rise in violent crime in the US 261 00:16:20,919 --> 00:16:25,320 in the seventies, eighties, and nineties, and then in the 262 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,159 mid nineties with the removal of leaded gas and the 263 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,840 closure of smelters, all of a sudden, the rate of 264 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,879 violent crime and the number of serial killers drops off 265 00:16:36,919 --> 00:16:38,279 sharply in the US. 266 00:16:38,759 --> 00:16:40,799 Speaker 5: And I really liked the fact too that you were 267 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:45,080 able to carry some of this over to Britain as well, 268 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:46,320 and talked about. 269 00:16:46,039 --> 00:16:48,639 Speaker 3: The fact that the areas that had. 270 00:16:48,679 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 5: Multiple serial killers, the Yorkshire Ripper and so on and 271 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,440 so forth, those also were in high industrial areas. I 272 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,519 started reading this and going, Holy cow, this has become 273 00:16:58,559 --> 00:17:01,279 a grand unified theory read for serial killers. 274 00:17:01,639 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 3: And I love it because it works. It suddenly made 275 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:06,119 so much sense. 276 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 5: I was just enthusion about this to my friend justin 277 00:17:08,799 --> 00:17:11,319 yesterday and he was like, I got to read this book. 278 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,400 This sounds fantastic because he can see it like he 279 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:16,759 understands it. Yeah. 280 00:17:16,799 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 3: I think it really was my blowing. 281 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:22,759 Speaker 6: Interested in the pull lead thing. I've within the past 282 00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:25,920 five years or something, I've seen people tweeting about it, 283 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,480 about the baby boomers and how they're prone to being 284 00:17:29,559 --> 00:17:32,480 angry and flying off the handle and all that sort 285 00:17:32,519 --> 00:17:35,039 of stuff because they were all exposed to lead. 286 00:17:35,599 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 5: You use the term crazy wall in your first chapter, 287 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,319 and I we're all familiar with this image of a 288 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,559 wall or a bulletin board or a whiteboard and the 289 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,640 red string and all the connected information, and I love 290 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,240 the image. Did you have a crazy wall while you 291 00:17:53,279 --> 00:17:53,880 were writing? 292 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 7: And so what did it look like? It must have 293 00:17:56,519 --> 00:18:03,119 been to see that I have the crazy room. It's 294 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,920 an entire space. Yeah, I didn't, As you can say, 295 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:08,920 I don't have a whole lot of wall space in here. 296 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,680 I did start working with maps, some of which were 297 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,839 online and some folding paper maps and looking at kind 298 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,680 of the connections. But it was hard to put all 299 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,359 this stuff together in one thing because, for example, that 300 00:18:23,599 --> 00:18:26,720 map that I was talking about, the GIS map that 301 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:32,240 Washington has developed, is so incredibly complex you can't really 302 00:18:32,279 --> 00:18:35,200 print that out. I did include in the book a 303 00:18:35,279 --> 00:18:40,519 little snapshot of map that shows the full extent of 304 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,680 the smelter plume, But it's really hard to work with 305 00:18:43,759 --> 00:18:47,880 those things in a physical printing it out or drawing 306 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,720 on it or something. You really have to use them online. 307 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 2: As you gathered all this material, then what was your 308 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:55,400 writing process? 309 00:18:55,640 --> 00:19:01,279 Speaker 6: Like I relied really heavily in this book on a timeline, 310 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,720 on timelines of different decades, which I also did for 311 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,599 prairie fires. Because when you're writing a biography, of course, 312 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,839 you're proceeding for the most part chronologically, and you really 313 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,400 have to keep track of what happened when and where 314 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,640 the person was. And so I had very elaborate timelines 315 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:25,200 by year, by decade, and those really helped in terms 316 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,400 of doing the kind of day to day writing. And also, 317 00:19:28,519 --> 00:19:31,960 I think one thing I've always found is that when 318 00:19:32,039 --> 00:19:35,400 you're writing, all of a sudden you realize, oh, I 319 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,720 don't know this I don't know this person looked like, 320 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,920 or I don't know how to describe this place, or 321 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,799 I'm missing some key piece of information. Then you have 322 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,680 to stop and find that so that you don't get 323 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,440 too far ahead of yourself. So yes, you do a 324 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,519 lot of research at the beginning to try and feed 325 00:19:56,599 --> 00:20:00,279 into what's going to be the narrative. But then as 326 00:20:00,319 --> 00:20:03,119 you go along you're having to do a lot of 327 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,279 additional research. And that was really true with this book 328 00:20:07,319 --> 00:20:07,759 as well. 329 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 2: So you don't skip In other words, you get to 330 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,599 that place where you realize, oh, I need more information 331 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,799 about this person or that situation, you don't just skip ahead. 332 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,039 Your tendency is to apply the brakes stop and then 333 00:20:21,079 --> 00:20:22,759 go put your research or hat back on. 334 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:29,759 Speaker 6: Yeah, because I think I'm too obsessive, and you can 335 00:20:29,839 --> 00:20:34,599 really go wrong if you proceed without looking for the 336 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,000 additional information that you need. You can get off the 337 00:20:38,079 --> 00:20:40,799 track or make mistakes that you don't want to have 338 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,960 to go back and fix later, because that just makes 339 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,640 everything more complicated, is what I've found. 340 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 5: You've spent most of your time here chronicly, Bundy. Were 341 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,839 you able to speak to some of the detectives and 342 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:57,359 people related to the case. 343 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 3: Did you have access to case file information? 344 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,799 Speaker 5: How much down the path of true crime and into 345 00:21:02,839 --> 00:21:05,000 our neck of the woods did you have to go 346 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:06,839 to be able to write this really well? 347 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,599 Speaker 6: Yeah. The lead detective in Washington, a guy named Bob Keppel, 348 00:21:13,039 --> 00:21:16,920 had actually died a few around the time I was 349 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,759 starting to think about this, so I didn't have a 350 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:24,000 chance to talk to him. Fortunately, he had written a 351 00:21:24,039 --> 00:21:27,960 great deal about his experience of working on the case, 352 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:33,240 his lack of experience. He was actually refreshingly honest for 353 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,680 a detective and an investigator, I found, and he'd written 354 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:42,559 a whole book about interviewing Bundy, ostensibly for the Green 355 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,680 River killer case, but really hoping to find out more 356 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,480 about Bundy's own murders, and I think that he had 357 00:21:50,839 --> 00:21:55,079 probably as good a feel for Bundy as almost anybody. 358 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:59,200 There was another FBI guy who interviewed him as well. 359 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,000 But I didn't want to do a lot of sort 360 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,039 of investigative research in the sense that I didn't want 361 00:22:07,039 --> 00:22:11,400 the Bundy narrative to completely take over the whole book, because, 362 00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:14,839 for one thing, he's been written about so much, and 363 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,359 really wanted to write about him in a way that 364 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:23,319 worked against the glamorization of Bundy. You know that he's 365 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,559 somebody who has been There are so many movies and 366 00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:30,839 TV shows and so forth about him that emphasized that 367 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,640 he was a genius or people have put him on 368 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,200 a very strange pedestal, and so one of the things 369 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,880 I wanted to do was to cut against that and 370 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:44,799 really just factually stick to what he did and how 371 00:22:44,799 --> 00:22:49,119 he did it, and through that try to get at 372 00:22:49,319 --> 00:22:55,279 the personalities and the sort of strange neurological background of 373 00:22:55,319 --> 00:22:58,720 these guys, because so much of what they do is 374 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:03,720 almost robot It's not Yes, there is some planning that 375 00:23:03,799 --> 00:23:07,799 goes into it, but there's also just a lot of impulsivity. 376 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,359 They see an opportunity and they take it. So I 377 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,960 wanted to give it a different view of serial killers, 378 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,000 starting with Bundy. 379 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 380 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,920 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 381 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:26,880 Mind over Murder. 382 00:23:27,839 --> 00:23:31,279 Speaker 5: Were there ever times when, due to the enormity of 383 00:23:31,279 --> 00:23:33,559 the complexity or just the darkness of the case. Were 384 00:23:33,559 --> 00:23:35,480 there ever times that you needed to just step away 385 00:23:35,519 --> 00:23:37,279 and be like, I got to take a couple of days. 386 00:23:37,599 --> 00:23:39,839 Speaker 3: I can't do this anymore. Did you just plow through? 387 00:23:40,279 --> 00:23:45,039 Speaker 6: There were certain things that were really difficult to describe 388 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,839 or to write about. Especially they're all horrible, they're all 389 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,200 really dark, but the things that involve kids and the 390 00:23:54,279 --> 00:23:59,480 torture of children, those things were really difficult to write about. Fortunately, 391 00:23:59,519 --> 00:24:02,359 there war aren't a lot. There were more than I 392 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,960 would have wanted to write about. They were spaced out 393 00:24:05,079 --> 00:24:07,400 so I didn't have to do that all at once. 394 00:24:07,799 --> 00:24:10,200 But yeah, I mean, there are definitely moments when you 395 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:16,119 think I'm gonna go take a walk something, I mean 396 00:24:16,599 --> 00:24:19,799 something where you just really have to change your mindset 397 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,559 because it is very disturbing. 398 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 5: Material time to go pet a puppy or have a 399 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,359 cup of coffee or something like that. 400 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:33,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is along those lines. It's very striking that 401 00:24:33,279 --> 00:24:36,920 you're perhaps best known for this very successful book on 402 00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:41,319 Laura Ingles Wilder. Did it feel like a similar process 403 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,799 for you as a writer dealing with this very heavy material? 404 00:24:46,319 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 6: If you look at Prairie Fires, I think that you 405 00:24:49,759 --> 00:24:53,759 will see that there's some pretty disturbing material. 406 00:24:53,319 --> 00:24:55,599 Speaker 3: In there as well. It's different, but. 407 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it does begin with an introduction that 408 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:05,599 describes the Dakota War of eighteen sixty two. Am I 409 00:25:05,599 --> 00:25:08,039 write about that eighteen sixty two? I think so, which 410 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,799 was a horrific event that involved some people call it 411 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:17,720 a massacre, like six hundred white settlers were murdered, and 412 00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:21,640 during a short period. It was a huge event in 413 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,359 the life of Wilder, so that she ended up referring 414 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,559 to it a couple of times in the Little House 415 00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:28,319 in the Prairie. 416 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 2: But I feel like that was largely forget that's largely 417 00:25:31,759 --> 00:25:33,519 been forgotten by history. 418 00:25:34,079 --> 00:25:37,759 Speaker 6: Yeah, in Minnesota, it's very well known, and certainly the 419 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,000 tribes that were involved. It ended in this horrific mass 420 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,359 hanging of a number of Dakota men who were involved 421 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,799 in it, and the hunting down and killing of Little Crow, 422 00:25:51,039 --> 00:25:54,319 the chief that was in charge of it, and was 423 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,960 really a kind of horrific chapter in American history, and 424 00:25:58,039 --> 00:26:01,880 people outside of Minnesota often aren't aware of it. It 425 00:26:02,039 --> 00:26:05,000 was so fascinated by that that I really felt it 426 00:26:05,039 --> 00:26:08,799 was important to include a description of that. And there's 427 00:26:08,839 --> 00:26:12,440 a lot of darker chapters of Wilder's life and her 428 00:26:12,559 --> 00:26:16,799 daughter's life as well. They went through a lot lost children. 429 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,720 So I don't think of Laura's life as a kind 430 00:26:21,759 --> 00:26:24,960 of narrative of sweetness and light. It really wasn't it. 431 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,799 And in fact, I think the Little House books are 432 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,400 somewhat darker when you read them as an adult and 433 00:26:31,559 --> 00:26:34,200 when you enjoy them when you're a kid, And I've 434 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,200 done both. I loved her books as a kid, but 435 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,400 was startled, I think when I re encountered them as 436 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,480 an adult, with how much kind of loss and suffering 437 00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:48,960 are in those books, it's maybe not as big a 438 00:26:49,039 --> 00:26:50,480 leap as people might think. 439 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:51,759 Speaker 3: I don't want to. 440 00:26:51,839 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 5: Spoil the book, because we do want people, of course 441 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,799 to read it and buy it. Can you give us 442 00:26:56,839 --> 00:27:00,359 maybe one or two of the most interesting conclusion that 443 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:05,559 you reached about the Pacific Northwest serial killer glut that 444 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,680 you found as you researched and wrote the book. If 445 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,200 you were going to highlight it for somebody who wanted 446 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,480 the cliff notes version, what would you say two or 447 00:27:12,519 --> 00:27:15,640 three of the best and most interesting things that you learned. 448 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:16,559 Speaker 7: Yeah. 449 00:27:16,599 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 6: One of the things that shocked me was in looking 450 00:27:20,559 --> 00:27:24,200 really closely at nineteen seventy four, which was the year 451 00:27:24,319 --> 00:27:28,880 when Bundy started to really ramp up his activities and 452 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,240 abduct all these women in the area, that there were 453 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,839 at least six serial killers operating in the state of Washington, 454 00:27:38,279 --> 00:27:42,279 mainly in that I five corridor, And that to me 455 00:27:42,799 --> 00:27:47,000 was really just a really startling kind of statistic that 456 00:27:47,079 --> 00:27:50,440 I think goes to the suggestion that there really was 457 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,920 something going on in the area at that time. And 458 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:59,119 then another thing that really I found owhelming was how 459 00:27:59,279 --> 00:28:04,160 weird a lot of these murders are, and murderers that 460 00:28:04,279 --> 00:28:09,079 we're not just talking about something where somebody's committing a 461 00:28:09,079 --> 00:28:12,279 lot of crimes that got out of hand, or that 462 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,599 it were where there was money involved. These were sexual 463 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:23,880 murders of a particularly grotesque and almost unimaginable kind, many 464 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,480 of them involving necrophilia, And that to me also says 465 00:28:28,559 --> 00:28:34,240 something about what was driving this phase of this is 466 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,799 referenced in the subtitle of the book Bloodlust. There does 467 00:28:38,839 --> 00:28:42,799 seem to be something really strange going on here. Not 468 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,160 that there haven't been murders of this kind before. Everybody 469 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,720 always talks about Jack the Ripper, and there are a 470 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,839 couple of other instances from history that involve this kind 471 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:59,559 of really brutal mayhem and sexual mayhem. But I think 472 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,599 we do you have to take another look at this 473 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:07,240 period and really recognize that these things are off the scale. 474 00:29:07,599 --> 00:29:12,319 Speaker 5: Here's the sixty four thousand dollars question. If we looked nationwide, 475 00:29:12,359 --> 00:29:15,519 not just the Pacific Northwest, would you expect to find 476 00:29:15,599 --> 00:29:20,480 similar trends in other highly industrialized areas of the country. 477 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,319 If we were to look at Chicago or Detroit ter 478 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,000 Saint Louis, for example, would we see that same uptick? 479 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,480 Is there a way to expand this research out to 480 00:29:28,599 --> 00:29:31,480 much bigger than it is? I really think you might 481 00:29:31,519 --> 00:29:32,640 be onto something here. 482 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 6: Yeah. I think that you could expand it, and I 483 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:41,160 think you might find more instances of this. About fifteen 484 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,759 years ago, Reuters did a whole series of reports on 485 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:51,960 lead smelters and lead exposure and pollution in major American cities, 486 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,000 and they did map GIS maps that are similar to 487 00:29:55,079 --> 00:29:58,680 the one I was using in Washington for places like 488 00:29:58,799 --> 00:30:05,640 Chicago and Cleveland and Cincinnati and Detroit and Philadelphia so forth. 489 00:30:06,039 --> 00:30:10,400 All these cities saw a huge ramp up of production 490 00:30:10,759 --> 00:30:13,799 over the period of World War II, and you do 491 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,640 see a lot of serial killers being born in that era. 492 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,000 So yes, I think you might see that I was 493 00:30:21,119 --> 00:30:24,400 trying to do a little of that in looking at 494 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,200 the city of El Paso, for example, because El Paso 495 00:30:28,319 --> 00:30:32,519 is another city that had a huge lead smelter right 496 00:30:32,559 --> 00:30:34,799 in the middle of the city, and of course el 497 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,039 Paso is really two cities. It's El Paso on our 498 00:30:38,119 --> 00:30:42,319 side of the border and Ceodad Warrez on the Mexican side, 499 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,720 and so Warres got a huge amount of that lead pollution. 500 00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:50,640 You then see a lot of femicides as they were 501 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,039 called in Warres in the eighties and nineties, the sort 502 00:30:54,039 --> 00:30:59,160 of wholesale murder of women. Several hundred women are murdered 503 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,759 in that period. It's very difficult to do reporting on 504 00:31:02,799 --> 00:31:06,519 that on what trying to tease out what was cartel 505 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,160 violence versus what was serial killers. There may have been 506 00:31:10,359 --> 00:31:14,119 three or four serial killers at work in that area. 507 00:31:14,359 --> 00:31:18,960 But we certainly do know that Richard Ramirez, the nightstalker 508 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,000 who is famous for all these murders, he committed in 509 00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:25,680 Los Angeles. He grew up in El Paso, not very 510 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:26,680 far from the smelter. 511 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,839 Speaker 2: Taking Kristen's question, and now you've expanded it to at 512 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:35,079 least include Mexico, would we see these same patterns in 513 00:31:35,279 --> 00:31:40,039 heavily industrialized and polluted cities across the globe. 514 00:31:40,319 --> 00:31:44,279 Speaker 6: Yeah, there are people who have, I think, begun looking 515 00:31:44,559 --> 00:31:48,319 at this question. One of the people who I talk 516 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,720 about a little bit is research of the guy who 517 00:31:52,119 --> 00:31:54,960 contributed the graph that's at the back of the book. 518 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,640 He wrote a paper or a book called I'm Blinking 519 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:04,400 on the name of it Lucifer, that Lucifer curves, Lucifer curves. 520 00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:09,480 He has looked at the history of the UK, for example, 521 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,559 there are certain areas of the UK have many decades 522 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:19,400 and indeed centuries of association with lead poisoning that do 523 00:32:19,599 --> 00:32:23,519 seem to have a higher number of serial killers. So yes, 524 00:32:23,599 --> 00:32:26,599 I think you could do this research. It's hard to 525 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,759 do it for places like Russia, for example, which is 526 00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:34,000 said to have a city rostov on Dawn that has 527 00:32:34,079 --> 00:32:38,200 more serial killers than anywhere else and also has significant 528 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,759 pollution because it's hard to access those kinds of records 529 00:32:42,839 --> 00:32:46,599 unless you're fluent in the language. I think places like 530 00:32:46,799 --> 00:32:52,559 China probably have real problems with lead because they didn't 531 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,640 have the regulatory structure that we have the legislation. There 532 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,960 are reports that people became came really outraged areas where 533 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,440 the population was very angry about lead pollution and what 534 00:33:06,519 --> 00:33:09,000 it was doing to their kids. So I think they've 535 00:33:09,079 --> 00:33:13,920 tried to pull back and do some controls on their plants, 536 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,720 but I have to think that they have some history 537 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,960 of this as well. But we're probably never going to 538 00:33:19,039 --> 00:33:22,559 know about it because those places are not going to 539 00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:26,680 be there's no reporting coming out of their legal system 540 00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:29,640 is not like ours. Yeah, I think you probably could 541 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,400 do reporting on this in Europe and places where you 542 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,880 could access records, but maybe not in areas that are 543 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:38,960 really heavily controlled. 544 00:33:39,319 --> 00:33:42,759 Speaker 2: Do you feel like murder Land could actually be sounding 545 00:33:42,839 --> 00:33:46,880 a cautionary note because I have a concern that, if anything, 546 00:33:47,079 --> 00:33:50,240 we seem to be stepping back as a country now 547 00:33:50,359 --> 00:33:56,519 from environmental concerns and the significant strides we've made in 548 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,480 terms of cleaning up our environment. Now there seems to 549 00:33:59,559 --> 00:34:02,119 be a movie of foot too. Oh, let's scrap all 550 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,359 that stuff. We're not going to have these kind of restrictions. 551 00:34:05,559 --> 00:34:09,079 Do you feel like Murderland sounds a cautionary note there? 552 00:34:09,559 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 6: I certainly hope that it does. One of the things 553 00:34:12,559 --> 00:34:16,639 I just read about yesterday that I found deeply horrifying 554 00:34:17,079 --> 00:34:21,880 was the news that the Trump administration is hoping to 555 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,159 roll back regulations on asbestos. 556 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:25,519 Speaker 2: I read that as well. 557 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,679 Speaker 6: The company that I talk about that had the smokestacks 558 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,119 in Tacoma and al Paso, which is a Sarco, the 559 00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:36,760 American smelting and refining company. The reason that they went 560 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,360 bankrupt was because of asbestos. They were mining asbestos in 561 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,559 Canada for years and just set it loose on an 562 00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:49,920 unsuspecting populace in the same way that they were setting 563 00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:53,760 lead and arsenic pollution loose. And the idea that we're 564 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,920 going to be rolling back regulations on things that everybody 565 00:34:58,039 --> 00:35:03,360 knows are poisonous and cause all kinds of cancer is 566 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,280 just astonishing. The thing about I'm talking about lead in 567 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,760 terms of what it does neurologically to your brain, but 568 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,039 it has all kinds of other effects too. It is 569 00:35:14,199 --> 00:35:17,880 believed to be responsible for a lot of the rise 570 00:35:18,119 --> 00:35:22,800 in heart disease in this country. It's associated with als, 571 00:35:23,039 --> 00:35:26,760 it can cause all kinds of havoc with different parts 572 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,440 of your body. Man, the idea that we're going to 573 00:35:29,559 --> 00:35:33,440 let go of the controls that we have when we 574 00:35:33,519 --> 00:35:38,320 don't even have a fully operational system that is controlling 575 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,480 particular pollution which is now shown to be causing all 576 00:35:42,559 --> 00:35:47,320 kinds of asthma and other diseases, that's just unreal. I 577 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:48,719 just can't even believe that. 578 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 2: As someone whose older brother, who's a retired Navy doctor 579 00:35:53,119 --> 00:35:57,239 and an epidemiologist by trade. My older brother is now 580 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,880 undergoing treatment for stage four life dung cancer is never smoked. 581 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,960 They believe that Richard's condition, which is very serious, is 582 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,480 as a result of his service aboard US Navy ships 583 00:36:10,519 --> 00:36:13,840 which were riddled with asbestos. Back then. Part of his 584 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,480 job was to try to protect his Navy A Marine 585 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:21,599 Corps personnel from exposure to environmental hazards like asbestos. But 586 00:36:21,679 --> 00:36:26,199 as he explained, every time they moved bulkheads or cut 587 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:31,320 pie the ship was riddled with asbestos, and those personnel, 588 00:36:31,639 --> 00:36:35,159 including Richard, who was then a ship's doctor. They were 589 00:36:35,199 --> 00:36:38,920 exposed to asbestos, so the hazard is very real, and 590 00:36:39,159 --> 00:36:41,800 all these years later it catches up with people like 591 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,039 Richard and people he served with who were exposed to asbestos. 592 00:36:45,079 --> 00:36:47,719 The idea that we're going to have scrap regulations and 593 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,280 restrictions on something that's already been proven to have impacted 594 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,960 millions of people's lives, it's insane. 595 00:36:54,119 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 6: It is insane, and it's horrifying. I'm sorry to hear that. 596 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,159 And the idea that we have politicized all of these 597 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,880 facts that we know about things like asbestos and are 598 00:37:06,079 --> 00:37:09,280 just moving ahead as if it's a political issue, not 599 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,559 a medical issue, is horrifying. 600 00:37:12,159 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 3: Carolyn. 601 00:37:12,639 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 5: There are obviously going to be people who are skeptical 602 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,679 about your claims about the link between lead and the 603 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,800 development of serial killers. What is your response for the 604 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,519 people who are going to push back against your findings, 605 00:37:25,679 --> 00:37:26,400 Because there. 606 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 3: Will be people who will do that. 607 00:37:28,159 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 5: What would you say to them who say, I don't 608 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:31,199 see it. 609 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:36,519 Speaker 6: Obviously, everybody's entitled to their opinion and their reaction. It's 610 00:37:36,559 --> 00:37:39,880 always fascinating to write a book and to put it 611 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,360 out into the world and you get all kinds of 612 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,679 different takes, and so it's fine with me if people 613 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,960 don't want to adopt this theory. I wanted people to 614 00:37:50,079 --> 00:37:53,480 know about it because the leed crime hypothesis. I didn't 615 00:37:53,519 --> 00:37:58,079 make it up. It existed, right, And I hope people 616 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,400 talk about it. I hope they debate it. I hope 617 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,920 they think of things like the whole history of the 618 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:11,199 tobacco industry and how much money that industry spent to 619 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,639 try to control the narrative around We don't know if 620 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,079 smoking causes cancer. There's nothing that really proves that. I 621 00:38:20,119 --> 00:38:25,920 would encourage skepticism in both directions. Yes, we can't prove this, 622 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,400 and it's okay to talk about that. On the other hand, 623 00:38:29,639 --> 00:38:33,679 there's a lot of really interesting data that's out that 624 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,519 are out there, and I think that we can start 625 00:38:36,559 --> 00:38:39,280 looking at this as a potential problem. 626 00:38:39,639 --> 00:38:43,800 Speaker 5: The book is Murderland, Crime and Bloodlust in the Time 627 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,880 of Serial Killers? Carolin, Where can everybody find your book? 628 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,800 Speaker 6: All over the place? In bookstores, in Amazon and in 629 00:38:52,119 --> 00:38:56,840 independent bookstores. I always liked people to go chop at 630 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:03,400 their local bookstores as well. I'm online on Twitter, on Instagram, 631 00:39:03,519 --> 00:39:09,079 and blue Sky. My website is Caroline Fraser dot net 632 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,199 and There's a lot of links to interviews and so 633 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,760 forth on that site, so if you want to learn more, 634 00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:16,079 just check that out. 635 00:39:16,599 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 5: The book is fascinating. We can't thank you enough for 636 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,239 joining us today. We really appreciate it. Oh, I appreciate it. 637 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:23,480 It's a great discussion. 638 00:39:23,639 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 3: Thank you that is going to do it for this 639 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,559 episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. 640 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:29,920 We'll see you next time. 641 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 642 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:43,920 Another Dog Productions. 643 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,800 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 644 00:39:48,159 --> 00:39:50,599 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 645 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,320 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 646 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 647 00:39:58,519 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 648 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 649 00:40:04,519 --> 00:40:05,360 Murders on. 650 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 2: Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter 651 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:10,800 at Bill Thomas five six. 652 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.