1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,120 Speaker 1: Okay, I want you to try a little experiment with me. 2 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:05,799 It might feel a little a little uncomfortable, but just 3 00:00:05,799 --> 00:00:06,679 stay with it for a second. 4 00:00:06,839 --> 00:00:07,519 Speaker 2: M Okay. 5 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: Think about just the last twenty four hours of your life. 6 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:13,839 You probably I don't know, ordered a coffee, maybe you 7 00:00:13,839 --> 00:00:16,359 swiped a badge to get into your office, transferred some 8 00:00:16,399 --> 00:00:17,120 money on an app. 9 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:19,719 Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, daily stuff, daily stuff. 10 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: You probably walked under some construction scaffolding or you know, 11 00:00:23,879 --> 00:00:26,960 drove through a green light. Every single one of those 12 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:31,640 moments you were suspended in this kind of this invisible 13 00:00:31,719 --> 00:00:33,079 hammock of trust. 14 00:00:33,079 --> 00:00:35,719 Speaker 2: The trust suspension. That's a good way to put it right. 15 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 1: You were resting your safety, your money, your actual life 16 00:00:40,359 --> 00:00:43,119 on the assumption that strangers are who they say they are, 17 00:00:43,759 --> 00:00:47,119 that the brista didn't just skim your card details. 18 00:00:46,719 --> 00:00:49,759 Speaker 2: That the engineer actually checked the bolts on that scaffold, 19 00:00:49,799 --> 00:00:51,880 that the driver coming the other way isn't you know, 20 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:53,799 looking at their phone exactly. 21 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: And I mean civilization is basically that, isn't it. It's 22 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,280 this huge collaborative hallucination where we all just for you 23 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:02,840 to follow the rules even when no one is watching. 24 00:01:03,159 --> 00:01:05,079 Speaker 2: It has to be. It's the only way it works, 25 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:06,519 it's efficient, It lets us function. 26 00:01:07,879 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: What happens when someone looks at that hammock at that 27 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,599 trust and pulls out a pair of scissors. What happens 28 00:01:14,599 --> 00:01:19,719 when that trust isn't just broken, but it's weaponized. That 29 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:21,680 is what we are digging into today. 30 00:01:21,799 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 2: I am so ready for this. 31 00:01:23,519 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to thrilling threads. I am honestly, I am vibrating 32 00:01:28,519 --> 00:01:31,640 with this mix of excitement and just genuine horror for 33 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:32,040 this one. 34 00:01:32,079 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 2: Oh me too. It's a deep, dark rabbit hole. 35 00:01:34,599 --> 00:01:36,719 Speaker 1: It is. And we aren't just talking about, you know, 36 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,319 stolen wallets or phishing emails today. This is bigger. We 37 00:01:40,359 --> 00:01:43,680 are pulling on the loose threads of ten specific cases 38 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,439 sourced from some truly disturbing reporting on fraud, where the 39 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,640 perpetrators they didn't just steal cash, they stole. 40 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 2: Reality, stole reality. That is the perfect way to frame it, 41 00:01:53,079 --> 00:01:55,200 because when we look at the psychology of the con 42 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,560 and especially the let's call it the creepy con, we 43 00:01:58,599 --> 00:02:01,640 aren't looking at a simple trend. It's not just about money. 44 00:02:01,879 --> 00:02:04,879 It's an invasion. The victims in these cases they didn't 45 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,479 just lose their savings, they lost their ability to trust, 46 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,719 their own senses, they lost their own narrative of their life. 47 00:02:12,719 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: And the research stack we have in front of us 48 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:18,599 today it is heavy. I mean, we've got everything from 49 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,960 the Victorian era's most notorious serial killer all the way 50 00:02:22,039 --> 00:02:25,120 up to the Silicon Valley Darlings who burned through billions 51 00:02:25,159 --> 00:02:28,039 of dollars. It's a huge range, it is, so to 52 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,599 keep our own heads from spinning, we've organized this into 53 00:02:30,599 --> 00:02:33,719 four categories. Basically, we're looking at them based on the 54 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,280 human trigger that the con artists exploited, the hook. The hook, 55 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:42,280 so we've got hope, ambition, identity, and finally trust. 56 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: Which is I think a really smart way to do it, 57 00:02:44,439 --> 00:02:46,319 because if you want to understand the con you have 58 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,240 to look at the hook. You have to ask what 59 00:02:48,319 --> 00:02:51,159 was the victim hungry for? Was it health? Was it love? 60 00:02:51,439 --> 00:02:54,199 Was its status? The con artist is just a mirror. 61 00:02:54,199 --> 00:02:57,599 They reflect your deepest desire back at you. But there's 62 00:02:57,639 --> 00:02:58,400 a price tag. 63 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: Attached, very very steep price tag. So let's start with 64 00:03:01,599 --> 00:03:04,400 I think the most visceral one, the most basic desire 65 00:03:04,439 --> 00:03:08,879 of all, the desire for life itself. Section one, the 66 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:13,159 wellness trap. This is all about exploiting hope. I mean 67 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:14,680 we have to start with Bell Gibson. 68 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the whole pantry phenomenon exactly. 69 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: Now, context is so key here. I want you to 70 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,960 think back to what twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, Instagram was 71 00:03:25,039 --> 00:03:26,479 just exploding, right, It. 72 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,759 Speaker 2: Was becoming the dominant platform. 73 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: And the clean eating movement was at its absolute peak. 74 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,280 I mean you couldn't scroll for five seconds without seeing, 75 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:35,800 you know, avocado toast or a green smoothie. 76 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,479 Speaker 2: Oh, it was everywhere. It was this promise of purity 77 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:39,840 and control through food. 78 00:03:40,159 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: Right. So into this landscape walks Bell Gibson. She's young, 79 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,080 she's gorgeous, Australian, and she has a story that just 80 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,360 stops you in your tracks. She claims she has terminal brain. 81 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,599 Speaker 2: Cancer, the worst kind, inoperable. 82 00:03:52,199 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: Inoperable, she has four months to live. But and this 83 00:03:55,719 --> 00:03:58,879 is the key, she is rejecting conventional medicine. 84 00:03:58,439 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: And that that right now, there is the hook, the 85 00:04:01,479 --> 00:04:04,080 ultimate seduction for anyone who is terrified of death or 86 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,560 terrified of the brutality of chemotherapy, which, let's be honest, 87 00:04:07,599 --> 00:04:08,520 is a brutal process. 88 00:04:08,599 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: It's awful. 89 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,199 Speaker 2: And what she offered was this idea that you can 90 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:16,360 have control. Modern apology is terrifying. It's complex, it's painful, 91 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,680 and it offers absolutely no guarantees. Gibson came along and 92 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,279 offered a guarantee, the simple one. Eat this, drink this 93 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,879 lemon water, live longer. It's control in a situation where 94 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:27,759 people feel completely helpless. 95 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: And she built an empire on it, I mean a 96 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:34,040 legitimate empire. The whole Pantry app. It was on every iPhone. 97 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:38,160 It was beautiful, it was sleek apple. The company even 98 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:39,879 flew her out to Cupertino to feature it. 99 00:04:39,959 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. It was a best seller. 100 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: She had a best selling cookbook with Penguin, a major publisher. 101 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,800 She was the it girl of wellness. But here's the 102 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,560 part that gets me, the part that really turns the stomach. 103 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,879 It wasn't just about the diet. Yeah, she was monetizing 104 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:58,360 her survival. She pledged publicly that the proceeds from her 105 00:04:58,399 --> 00:05:00,720 app and her book would go to charities. 106 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: And not just any charities. 107 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: No, she specifically named the family of a young boy, 108 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,199 Joshua Schwartz, who had actual terminal brain cancer. 109 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 2: And that right there is where the pathology reveals itself. 110 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,639 I mean, it is one thing to lie about your 111 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,199 own health for Instagram likes that's you know, sad and strained. 112 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:18,759 Speaker 1: Pathetic. 113 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is another thing entirely to look into the 114 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,399 eyes of a family with a dying child, promise them 115 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,920 financial support from your imaginary cancer journey, and then just 116 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,920 ghost them. They never saw a scent. 117 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: Never. 118 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,759 Speaker 2: That moves it from pathetic into predatory. 119 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: And so when the whole house of cards inevitably fell 120 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,519 in twenty fifteen because journalists, real journalists, yeah, started asking, Hey, 121 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:46,879 where's that donation money you promised? Her defense was just staggering, unbelievable. 122 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,279 She admitted it. She didn't have cancer, she never had cancer. 123 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,920 But instead of just saying I am a fraud, I'm sorry, 124 00:05:52,319 --> 00:05:54,120 she spun this whole new narrative. 125 00:05:54,199 --> 00:05:55,199 Speaker 2: Oh, the victim narrative. 126 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: The victim narrative that she was the victim of a 127 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,639 rough childhood, or that she'd been misled by doctors who 128 00:06:00,639 --> 00:06:01,920 gave her a misdiagnosis. 129 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 2: It's a classic Darvo maneuver. We see this with narcissists 130 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,319 all the time, deny attack and reverse victim and offender. 131 00:06:08,399 --> 00:06:11,160 By claiming she was delusional or that she'd been victimized 132 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,519 by her past. She was trying to get sympathy from 133 00:06:13,519 --> 00:06:17,879 the very same people she just scammed. It's shameless, but psychologically, 134 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,879 I think Gibson represents a very modern kind of danger. 135 00:06:21,399 --> 00:06:25,600 She is the influencer who completely bypasses peer review. She 136 00:06:25,639 --> 00:06:28,399 had no medical degree, no data, and no evidence, just 137 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,079 a good ring light and a really compelling Instagram caption, and. 138 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: Because she looked healthy, because she was healthy, people took 139 00:06:35,959 --> 00:06:36,319 that as. 140 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 2: Proof her method work exactly. The survival was the proof, 141 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,240 but there was nothing to survive. It's a classic case 142 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,199 of survivorship bias, except the survivor as a ghost. 143 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,959 Speaker 1: It's a phantom, a total phantom. But okay, if Bill 144 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:52,800 Gibson was this global digital phenomenon, our next case is 145 00:06:52,879 --> 00:06:55,279 in some ways even more terrifying because it's so local. 146 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,480 Amanda Riley. This one hits different because it's not some 147 00:06:58,600 --> 00:06:59,839 distant appy download. 148 00:07:00,079 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 2: This is your neighbor right known online as Scamanda. 149 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: Precisely Amanda Riley, a mom from Santase and from twenty 150 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,439 twelve to twenty nineteen. Think about that. Seven years. That 151 00:07:13,519 --> 00:07:16,040 duration is just it's incredible. 152 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,959 Speaker 2: Seven years of active deception, active daily deception. 153 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: She claimed to have Hodgkins lymphoma, but she didn't just 154 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,959 mention it at a PTA meeting. She performed it. She 155 00:07:26,079 --> 00:07:28,519 put on a seven year long one woman show. 156 00:07:28,639 --> 00:07:29,839 Speaker 2: It was a full time job. 157 00:07:29,959 --> 00:07:32,319 Speaker 1: It was. She shaved her head, She staged photos in 158 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,439 hospitals or what looked like hospitals. She blogged in painstaking 159 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,959 detail about the poison of chemotherapy entering your veins. 160 00:07:40,079 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 2: This is a really specific subset of what used to 161 00:07:42,639 --> 00:07:46,079 be called fictitious disorder. Some people call it Munchausen by Internet, 162 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,920 but in Riley's case, it was really Munchausen for profit right. 163 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: Because there was a clear financial motive. 164 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: A huge one, and the Internet allows for the curation 165 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,560 of medical records that don't actually exist. You can google 166 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,680 what a chemo port looks like. You can buy ivy 167 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,480 stands and medical supplies on Amazon, and you can stage 168 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,800 a photoshoot in your living room that looks exactly like 169 00:08:03,839 --> 00:08:05,720 a sterile clinic if you crop it just right. 170 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: In her community, her real life community bought it. Hook 171 00:08:08,879 --> 00:08:11,839 Line and Sinker. Yeah, the church, the school her kids 172 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:13,759 went to. They rallied around her. 173 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,759 Speaker 2: Of course they did. That's what good communities do. 174 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: They raised over one hundred and five thousand dollars. People 175 00:08:19,279 --> 00:08:21,639 were emptying their four oh one k's taking out second 176 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,720 mortgages to help this woman stay alive for her kids. 177 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 2: M just devastating. 178 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,199 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, where is she? She's taking that money and going 179 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,519 on trips to New York, She's going to concerts, renovating 180 00:08:33,519 --> 00:08:36,919 her house. The cognitive dissonance required to sit in a 181 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,039 front row seat at a concert knowing that your neighbors 182 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,639 think you're in a hospital bed fighting for your life. 183 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,399 That is a specific and terrifying kind of coldness. 184 00:08:47,519 --> 00:08:51,399 Speaker 2: It's sociopathic compartmentalization. I mean, she likely justified it to 185 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,639 herself some kind of twisted logic, like I deserve this 186 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,480 trip because I'm under so much stress keeping up this lie. 187 00:08:57,639 --> 00:08:59,279 Speaker 1: Right, this is hard work, exactly. 188 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 2: The real damage here it isn't just one hundred and 189 00:09:02,039 --> 00:09:05,039 five thousand dollars, it's the compassion fatigue it creates in 190 00:09:05,039 --> 00:09:05,679 that community. 191 00:09:05,759 --> 00:09:06,759 Speaker 1: Well, that's such a good. 192 00:09:06,639 --> 00:09:08,799 Speaker 2: Point, because the next time a woman in that San 193 00:09:08,879 --> 00:09:12,519 Jose community actually gets cancer and genuinely needs help setting 194 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,000 up a GoFundMe, people are gonna hesitate, They're gonna wonder, 195 00:09:16,039 --> 00:09:18,759 they're gonna ask for proof. She poisoned the well of 196 00:09:18,799 --> 00:09:20,000 communal charity. 197 00:09:19,639 --> 00:09:22,799 Speaker 1: For everyone that's the real tragedy of it. Skepticism is healthy, 198 00:09:22,879 --> 00:09:26,320 we need it, but cynicism. Cynicism is a strategy. She 199 00:09:26,399 --> 00:09:29,759 created cynics absolutely. Okay. So if we take this model 200 00:09:29,799 --> 00:09:32,799 and we scale it up, way up, from a mom 201 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,600 in San Jose to a multi billion dollar valuation, we 202 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,720 land squarely on fair nose and Elizabeth Holmes. 203 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 2: The black turtleneck, the weirdly deep baritone voice, the unblinking 204 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:45,679 stare the whole package. 205 00:09:45,799 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: We all know the basis of the story, right, Stanford dropout, 206 00:09:48,879 --> 00:09:51,720 hailed is the next Steve Jobs, the female Steve Jobs. 207 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,120 But I want to drill down on the why. Why 208 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,000 do is so many smart, powerful people We're talking George Schultz, 209 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,360 Henry Kissinger, investors with billions on the line. Why did 210 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,440 they believe that a little machine the size of a printer, 211 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,519 the Edison, could run hundreds of blood tests on a 212 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:06,720 single drop of blood. 213 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:08,919 Speaker 2: It wasn't just her charisma, though that was a huge 214 00:10:08,919 --> 00:10:11,759 part of it. It was the deep desperate desire for 215 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,279 the technology to exist. We call this vaporware in the 216 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,639 tech world, but this was medical vaporware. 217 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:18,759 Speaker 1: Would that mean exactly? 218 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: It means the product was promised it was sold, but 219 00:10:21,279 --> 00:10:24,519 it never actually worked, and the science behind what she 220 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,240 was claiming is incredibly, incredibly difficult. When you prick a finger, 221 00:10:28,279 --> 00:10:31,440 you get capillary blood, right it's mixed with tissue fluid. 222 00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:35,559 The cells often break. It's called cell lycens Okay. To 223 00:10:35,639 --> 00:10:39,240 run accurate tests, especially for really sensitive things like cancer 224 00:10:39,279 --> 00:10:43,080 markers or potassium levels, you almost always need venus blood 225 00:10:43,159 --> 00:10:44,879 from a vein in your arm, and you need enough 226 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,720 volume to separate the serum. Holmes was basically promising to 227 00:10:48,759 --> 00:10:51,720 break the laws of physics and biology at the same time. 228 00:10:52,279 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: So how did she keep the lie going internally with 229 00:10:54,879 --> 00:10:56,679 her own scientists and engineers. 230 00:10:57,159 --> 00:11:01,519 Speaker 2: She siloed the teams. That was the crucial internal mechanism. 231 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,879 The engineering team wasn't allowed to talk to the chemistry team. 232 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,639 So the engineers are busy building a box and the 233 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,799 chemists are trying to make the assays work on a 234 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,879 bench top, and nobody realizes that the two things don't 235 00:11:12,879 --> 00:11:13,480 fit together. 236 00:11:13,879 --> 00:11:15,639 Speaker 1: It's the Emperor's new clothes. 237 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,919 Speaker 2: On a corporate level, that's exactly it. Everyone is afraid 238 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,679 to be the one to say, hey, wait a minute, 239 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,440 I don't think this is working, And unlike Bernie Madoff, 240 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,960 who will get to later. This fraud had immediate physical stakes. 241 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,399 Speaker 1: Right, This is the part that's truly horrifying. They roll 242 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,960 this out. They put these faulty machines in Walgreens pharmacies 243 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,879 in Arizona. Real people got tests from them. 244 00:11:36,759 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 2: Real people with real health problems. 245 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: I read about people getting false HIV positives. Can you 246 00:11:42,279 --> 00:11:46,399 imagine getting that phone call, the terror, the life altering devastation, 247 00:11:46,919 --> 00:11:49,639 all based on a complete lie, or what. 248 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: Might be even worse, a false negative for cancer. You 249 00:11:53,039 --> 00:11:54,879 think you're in the clear, you go on with your 250 00:11:54,919 --> 00:11:57,000 life while a tumor is growing unchecked. 251 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: That's where the whole fake it till you make it 252 00:11:59,279 --> 00:12:03,840 ethosis Silon Valley becomes straight up criminal. In software, if 253 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,799 you ship a buggy app, you know, people's phones might crash. 254 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,000 It's annoying, right, If you ship a buggy medical device, 255 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,720 people die. And Elizabeth Holmes just she blurred that line 256 00:12:14,799 --> 00:12:18,480 until it completely vanished. She viewed herself as a visionary, 257 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,960 and in her mind, the vision was more real than 258 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,559 the current technical limitations. She was living in the future, 259 00:12:26,039 --> 00:12:28,919 but her patients were living in a very dangerous present. 260 00:12:29,159 --> 00:12:32,519 Speaker 2: The ultimate hubris. She believed her own hype completely. 261 00:12:32,639 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: Okay, let's pivot. We've talked about faking the illness, faking 262 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,159 the cure, or faking the tech. Now let's talk about 263 00:12:38,159 --> 00:12:38,639 faking the. 264 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 2: Actual person, the impersonator. 265 00:12:40,639 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: Section two, the masquerade. This is identity fraud, but on steroids. 266 00:12:46,279 --> 00:12:49,159 Speaker 2: This is where we really see the con artist as actor, 267 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:50,720 a full on performance, and. 268 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: No one, I mean no one acted harder than the 269 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,440 Hollywood con queen. The story is just so bizarre. I 270 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,240 remember reading the initial reporting on this and thinking it 271 00:12:59,279 --> 00:13:01,200 had to be a movie script. It couldn't be real. 272 00:13:01,279 --> 00:13:01,919 Speaker 2: It's not like fiction. 273 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: For years, you have these freelance workers in the film industry, 274 00:13:05,639 --> 00:13:09,879 makeup artists, stuntman, photographer, as trainers, and they're getting calls 275 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,360 and on the other end of the phone is a 276 00:13:12,399 --> 00:13:17,200 powerful woman, a voice they recognize, Ammy Pascal, the former 277 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,879 head of Sony, Kathleen Kennedy, head of Lucasfilm, Wendy Ding Murdoch. 278 00:13:21,639 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 2: The absolute titans of the industry, the people who can 279 00:13:24,279 --> 00:13:26,720 make or break your career with one phone. 280 00:13:26,399 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: Call exactly, and the offer is always the same. It's 281 00:13:29,639 --> 00:13:33,039 always this incredible opportunity. I have a huge project shooting 282 00:13:33,039 --> 00:13:35,519 in Indonesia, it's the next Marvel movie, or it's a 283 00:13:35,519 --> 00:13:38,240 big budget reboot. The catch is you need to fly 284 00:13:38,279 --> 00:13:41,440 out tomorrow. The urgency is key, total urgency will reimburse 285 00:13:41,519 --> 00:13:42,919 you for everything. Just get on the plane. 286 00:13:43,039 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 287 00:13:43,759 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 1: So these gig workers who were so hungry for that 288 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,200 big break, they put the flight on their credit card. 289 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,879 They land in Jakarta and then Jakarto Yes nothing. 290 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 2: Well not exactly nothing. That's the insidious part. They meet 291 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,799 a driver, they get driven around the city. They're asked 292 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,279 to pay permit fee or location scouting fees in cash 293 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:03,960 with the promise of reimbursement. 294 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: But the big movie, the powerful female executive, it never materializes. 295 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,120 And what's just fascinating here is the perpetrator, a man 296 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,600 named Hargo bind til Romani, a man, a man sitting 297 00:14:18,639 --> 00:14:21,440 in a room in England and later in Indonesia doing 298 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,600 these voices and not just doing a generic woman voice. 299 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:30,440 He was mimicking specific cadences, specific vocabulary, specific speech patterns 300 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,840 of these real women. It was terrifyingly accurate. 301 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 2: So he was a master mimic. But the part that 302 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,759 is truly disturbing as you dig into it, isn't the money. 303 00:14:38,759 --> 00:14:40,840 He didn't get rich off. This the amount of effort 304 00:14:40,879 --> 00:14:43,840 he put in versus the financial payout, it just doesn't 305 00:14:43,879 --> 00:14:46,120 make sense if it was all about cash. No, it 306 00:14:46,159 --> 00:14:48,000 wasn't about cash. It was about dominance. It was about 307 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,320 being a puppet master. He would keep these victims on 308 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,200 the phone for hours and hours. He would make them 309 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,840 do humiliating things. He would make them kiss the driver. 310 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,080 He would conduct phone auditions that would devolve into sexual 311 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,000 humiliation and verbal abuse of a power trip. He was 312 00:15:01,039 --> 00:15:04,080 feeding off their desperation and their willingness to debase themselves 313 00:15:04,159 --> 00:15:06,600 for a shot at fame that was never ever real. 314 00:15:06,919 --> 00:15:11,399 Speaker 1: It's psychological sadism. He clearly enjoyed the control. He got 315 00:15:11,399 --> 00:15:13,279 a thrill out of waking up in the morning and 316 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,240 deciding to be Amy Pascal for three hours and completely 317 00:15:16,279 --> 00:15:19,039 ruining a stuntman's week and his finances. 318 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 2: It's like playing a game of the Sims, but the 319 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,080 sims are real people with real bank accounts and real emotions. 320 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: Yes, that's exactly it. 321 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,799 Speaker 2: And because he specifically targeted freelancers, people who don't have 322 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,480 an HR department to go to, people who are used 323 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,559 to the gig economy's instability, he knew they were uniquely vulnerable. 324 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,759 They are professionally trained to say yes to every opportunity, 325 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,279 no matter how strange it sounds. He weaponized the professional 326 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:46,240 drive against them. 327 00:15:46,279 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: Just awful. Oh, from the psychological horror of the con 328 00:15:49,159 --> 00:15:51,600 queen to yeah, just the visceral horror of a case 329 00:15:51,639 --> 00:15:53,679 out of Mantua, Italy. This is the one that the 330 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,559 media nicknamed the Misdoubt fire case. But I hate that nickname. 331 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 2: Oh I did too. It sounds whimsical and this is anything. 332 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:00,679 Speaker 1: But this is a nightmare. 333 00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 2: It's Gothic horror come to lag. 334 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: So you have a fifty six year old man, his 335 00:16:04,799 --> 00:16:07,320 elderly mother dies. He doesn't report it to the authorities 336 00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:10,840 because he needs to keep collecting her pension. Okay, that 337 00:16:10,879 --> 00:16:13,360 part is standard fraud, right, we've heard of that before. 338 00:16:13,159 --> 00:16:15,919 Speaker 2: That Unfortunately, Yes, pension fraud is not uncommon. 339 00:16:16,039 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: But then he keeps the body in the house for years, 340 00:16:21,559 --> 00:16:24,600 to the point where she becomes essentially mummified. 341 00:16:25,039 --> 00:16:28,159 Speaker 2: Okay, that alone indicates a very severe break from reality. 342 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,360 I mean to live with the old factory reality of decomposition. 343 00:16:31,799 --> 00:16:35,000 To normalize the physical presence of a corpse in your home, 344 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,279 That is not a rational mind at work. 345 00:16:37,399 --> 00:16:40,759 Speaker 1: But then it escalates. Her government ID expires in Italy. 346 00:16:40,759 --> 00:16:43,440 You need to renew it in person. So he doesn't flee, 347 00:16:43,519 --> 00:16:45,799 he doesn't confess. He comes up with a plan. 348 00:16:45,759 --> 00:16:47,159 Speaker 2: A truly unbelievable plan. 349 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,919 Speaker 1: She has his legs. He puts on his dead mother's dress, 350 00:16:49,919 --> 00:16:52,120 her jewelry, her shoes. He applies makeup to his own 351 00:16:52,159 --> 00:16:54,720 face to look like her. He gets a cane, and 352 00:16:54,759 --> 00:16:57,879 he walks into the municipal office, intending to impersonate his 353 00:16:57,919 --> 00:16:59,879 own dead mother to get her ide renewed. 354 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,879 Speaker 2: It's the literal assumption of an identity. We often speak 355 00:17:03,919 --> 00:17:07,200 metaphorically about a con artist wearing a mask, but here 356 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,640 it is completely physical. He is wearing the identity of 357 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,079 the person whose death he is concealing. 358 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: And it almost worked. 359 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:15,839 Speaker 2: That's the craziest part. 360 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,079 Speaker 1: It took a sharp clerk noticing that his voice, despite 361 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,960 his best efforts to sound like an old woman, didn't 362 00:17:22,039 --> 00:17:25,519 quite match the frail person he was presenting as. But 363 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,559 can you imagine the level of dissociation required to look 364 00:17:28,599 --> 00:17:31,119 at yourself in the mirror, see your dead mother's face 365 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,920 painted onto your own, and think, yes, this is a 366 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:35,119 good plan, This will work. 367 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 2: It speaks to perhaps the sheer desperation of economic survival. 368 00:17:39,519 --> 00:17:42,599 But it also points to a deep, profound inability to 369 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,880 let go of the source of sustenance, both financial and 370 00:17:46,079 --> 00:17:49,079 you have to imagine emotional. He couldn't exist without her, 371 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:51,880 so in the most grotesque way possible, he became her. 372 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: It's tragic, it's grotesque, and it's deeply criminal, all at 373 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,359 the same time. Absolutely, all right, let's try to wash 374 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,000 that image out of our heads with something a bit 375 00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:05,119 more glamorous, though no less manipulative. Anna Delviy, or her 376 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:06,279 real name, Anna. 377 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,799 Speaker 2: Sarrokan, the Soho grifter, the fake heiress. 378 00:18:10,039 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: She has become this bizarre folk hero to some people. 379 00:18:13,559 --> 00:18:15,880 The whole other conversation is wild. Well, let's just look 380 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,319 at the mechanics of her con Here's a young Russian 381 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,839 woman with no money and no connections who convinces New 382 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,400 York's elite banks, law firms, five star hotels that she 383 00:18:25,559 --> 00:18:28,519 has a sixty million euro trust fund waiting for her 384 00:18:28,519 --> 00:18:29,240 back in Europe. 385 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,759 Speaker 2: How it's a great question. 386 00:18:32,039 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: She didn't have a fake bank statement taped to her forehead. 387 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:35,880 She did it through pure attitude. 388 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,519 Speaker 2: She hacked the social code of the ultra wealthy. She 389 00:18:38,599 --> 00:18:43,279 understood something fundamental about that world. If you are rude, demanding, 390 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,039 and dismissive, people assume you are important. If you are 391 00:18:47,079 --> 00:18:50,240 polite and accommodating, they assume you're the service staff. 392 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: So she was just incredibly difficult. 393 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,079 Speaker 2: Incredibly she tipped with crisp hundred dollars bills, cash that 394 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,839 she usually acquired through fraudulent check kiding schemes. She wore 395 00:18:59,839 --> 00:19:02,839 the right designer clothes, she name dropped the right artist. 396 00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:06,000 She understood that at that level, wealth is a performance, 397 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:07,640 and she was a brilliant actress. 398 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: The story involving her friend Rachel Deloche Williams is the 399 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,160 one that really anchors this for me. It makes it concrete. 400 00:19:14,279 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 2: The Marrakesh trip. 401 00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 1: The Marrakesh trip. Anna invites her to this insane luxury 402 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,240 resort in Morocco, promises to pay for everything. Then predictably, oh, 403 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,559 my credit card isn't working. Oh the bank is just 404 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,839 confirming the international wire. And suddenly Rachel, who was a 405 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,119 photo editor at Vanity Fair, not a millionaire, is forced 406 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,720 to put a sixty two thousand dollars charge on her 407 00:19:35,759 --> 00:19:37,799 corporate American Express card that's. 408 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 2: More than her annual salary at the time. 409 00:19:39,559 --> 00:19:43,519 Speaker 1: Exactly, and that's the coercion. Anna created a situation with 410 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,000 the immense social pressure to resolve the awkwardness of the 411 00:19:47,039 --> 00:19:50,680 declined card, forced Rachel to step in and save the day. 412 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,039 It's brilliant in its cruelty. 413 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:57,039 Speaker 2: And Anna's reaction later when she was confronted absolutely no remorse. 414 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,240 She famously said, I'm not trying to trick people. I 415 00:19:59,319 --> 00:20:01,960 just asked. In her mind, her friends were just walking 416 00:20:02,039 --> 00:20:03,920 talking lines of credit, and. 417 00:20:03,799 --> 00:20:06,759 Speaker 1: Now she was on Dancing with His Stars for a minute. 418 00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:09,039 She has an art show. She's still under house arrest 419 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,160 in her New York apartment, but she's famous. She kind 420 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,559 of proved her own twisted point perception really is reality. 421 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:17,920 If enough people are looking at you, you. 422 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 2: Matter, which is a terrifying lesson for the Instagram generation. 423 00:20:21,079 --> 00:20:25,680 But notice the transition here. Anna exploited ambition and social climbing. 424 00:20:26,319 --> 00:20:29,960 Our next category of cons exploits something even more fundamental, 425 00:20:30,079 --> 00:20:30,880 even more. 426 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:36,519 Speaker 1: Powerful, love love Section three romance and control schemes, and 427 00:20:36,559 --> 00:20:38,920 this is where it just gets absolutely heartbreaking. We have 428 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,599 to start with the tender swindler Simon Levive. 429 00:20:41,799 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 2: This is a Ponzi scheme of affection that is. 430 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,599 Speaker 1: A perfect description a Ponzi scheme of affection. So he 431 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,200 meets women on tender. He claims to be the son 432 00:20:50,319 --> 00:20:53,599 of Level of Ease, a real Israeli billionaire known as 433 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,319 the King of Diamonds. 434 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:59,279 Speaker 2: So he's borrowing a legitimate name to build his credibility exactly, and. 435 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: He doesn't take them for coffee on a first date. 436 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,480 He flies them on a private jet to Bulgaria. He 437 00:21:03,519 --> 00:21:06,200 stays at the Four Seasons. He drops thousands of dollars. 438 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,480 He invests heavily upfront in. 439 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:12,079 Speaker 2: Business terms, that's the loss leader. He spends, say, twenty 440 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,279 thousand dollars in pressing victim A, but that twenty thousand 441 00:21:15,279 --> 00:21:18,160 dollars came directly from victim B, who he is in 442 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:19,920 the middle of scamming at that very moment. 443 00:21:20,079 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: And once he has them hooked, once they truly believe 444 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,319 he is this wealthy, globe trotting prince who love them, 445 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,240 he drops the hammer, the security threat. 446 00:21:29,559 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 2: The crisis. 447 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,559 Speaker 1: He sends a photo of his bodyguard, a guy named Peter, 448 00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:35,079 who looks like he's been beaten up, bleeding in the 449 00:21:35,079 --> 00:21:37,960 back of an ambulance. He says, my enemies are after me. 450 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,519 They can track my credit cards, I need to go dark. 451 00:21:40,559 --> 00:21:42,759 You have to help me. I need cash. 452 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,519 Speaker 2: This is the absolute genius of the scam. He doesn't 453 00:21:46,519 --> 00:21:49,119 ask for money for a new car or a business investment. 454 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,839 He frames it as a life or death emergency. If 455 00:21:51,839 --> 00:21:54,920 you don't send this money, I might die. He weaponizes 456 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,200 their love and their fear for his safety. 457 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 1: And these women they took out as of loans. They 458 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,400 went to nine or ten different bangs. They maxed out 459 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,359 all their credit cards. We were talking hundreds of thousands 460 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,440 of dollars per victim. And the entire time he's using 461 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,440 that money to fly the next girl to Micaos or Paris. 462 00:22:13,799 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 2: It creates this horrible closed loop of trauma and debt. 463 00:22:18,519 --> 00:22:22,359 And because the women technically authorize the bank transfers, the 464 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,720 law is a very hard time classifying it as theft. 465 00:22:24,759 --> 00:22:27,319 He just claims it was a loan between friends, but 466 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,839 it's not. It's coercion. It's emotional blackmail of the highest order. 467 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,559 Speaker 1: And just like ANIDELDI, he's out. He served a very 468 00:22:34,599 --> 00:22:38,799 short sentence. He's free. He's making personalized videos on cameo. 469 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,440 He's charging twenty thousand dollars for club appearances. It is 470 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:43,480 absolutely infuriating. 471 00:22:43,519 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 2: The lack of consequences is stunning. 472 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,279 Speaker 1: But if Simon Levive was a one man show, our 473 00:22:47,319 --> 00:22:50,720 next case ain't even This was a full blown institution. 474 00:22:50,839 --> 00:22:53,000 This is I think the darkest hole in our entire 475 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:53,839 lineup today. 476 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 2: Invalum is a different beast entirely. It started out as 477 00:22:57,079 --> 00:23:00,440 Executive Success Programs or ESP. It was run by a 478 00:23:00,519 --> 00:23:03,400 man named Keith Rainier who called himself Vanguard, and it. 479 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,079 Speaker 1: Was marketed as this elite self help program, optimize your potential, 480 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,000 remove your limiting beliefs, pretty standard corporate coaching stuff on 481 00:23:11,039 --> 00:23:11,519 the surface. 482 00:23:11,759 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 2: A lot of wealthy, successful people got pulled in at 483 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,680 that stage. But as you peeled back the layers of 484 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,599 the onion, it got weirder and weirder, and then you 485 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,720 get to dass the secret society. Within the secret society 486 00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:29,160 ch it's a Latin acronym dominus obsequious sororium. It means 487 00:23:29,519 --> 00:23:32,799 master over slave women. And this is where the fraud 488 00:23:32,839 --> 00:23:34,079 becomes outright slavery. 489 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:35,279 Speaker 1: How did they control them? 490 00:23:35,559 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 2: To join this inner circle? Women had to provide collateral? 491 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:40,319 Speaker 1: Collateral what does that mean? 492 00:23:40,559 --> 00:23:45,079 Speaker 2: Nude photos, false confessions to crimes they didn't commit, damaging 493 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,599 secrets about their families. Ronier held this material over their 494 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,519 heads to ensure absolute obedience. 495 00:23:50,559 --> 00:23:53,759 Speaker 1: It was blackmail and the branding. I still cannot wrap 496 00:23:53,759 --> 00:23:56,759 my head around this part. Alison Mack, the actress from 497 00:23:56,759 --> 00:24:00,440 the show Smallville, a friendly, trustworthy face million if people 498 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,759 recognize she was one of his top recruiters. 499 00:24:02,799 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 2: She was instrumental. 500 00:24:03,759 --> 00:24:05,799 Speaker 1: She would tell women that to show their dedication, they 501 00:24:05,839 --> 00:24:07,319 needed to get a brand. They were held down on 502 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,880 a table, fully conscious while a hot cauterizing pen was 503 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,920 used to burn a symbol into their skin near their pelvis. 504 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 2: And the symbol it wasn't some generic logo for the 505 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,000 group when you looked at it closely, it was a 506 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,519 combination of the initials kr Am, Keith Ranier, and Alison Mack. 507 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,839 They were literally branding women as their property. 508 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: That is the ultimate commodification of a human being. You 509 00:24:31,039 --> 00:24:33,799 are no longer a person, You are an object. You 510 00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:34,480 are property. 511 00:24:34,599 --> 00:24:39,279 Speaker 2: And Rainier used this convoluted word salad, redefining common terms 512 00:24:39,319 --> 00:24:43,839 like ethical and parasite to systematically dismantle their critical thinking. 513 00:24:44,319 --> 00:24:47,559 If you question him, you were being intellectually dishonest. He 514 00:24:47,759 --> 00:24:50,279 trapped them in a logic puzzle where the only possible 515 00:24:50,279 --> 00:24:52,039 answer was complete and total submission. 516 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: It's a terrifying example of how a financial scam can 517 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,799 metastasize into a full blown cult. It starts by targeting 518 00:24:58,799 --> 00:25:02,720 your wallet, with it owning your soul and your body 519 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,319 and your body, which brings us to our final section, 520 00:25:05,839 --> 00:25:08,039 the Titans. These are the cons that were so big 521 00:25:08,079 --> 00:25:13,400 they changed history. Section four, the historical and institutional Titans. 522 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,920 And we can't possibly do this show without talking about 523 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:16,359 the big one. 524 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 2: Bernie made off sixty five billion dollars. The number is 525 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,559 so big it's almost abstract. It doesn't feel real. 526 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,799 Speaker 1: It doesn't. But the mechanism behind it wasn't actually that complex, 527 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,680 was it. It was a simple Ponzi scheme. New investors' 528 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,640 money is used to pay off the old investors. But 529 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,319 why did it last for decades? Why did the SEC 530 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,759 investigate and miss it repeatedly? 531 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,599 Speaker 2: Because Madoff didn't act like a con man. He didn't 532 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,559 promise wild, unbelievable returns. He acted like a bored, slightly 533 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:46,640 annoyed bureaucrat. 534 00:25:46,759 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: He was the chairman of Nazaqi. He wasn't some shady outsider. 535 00:25:50,279 --> 00:25:51,680 He was the system. 536 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 2: Exactly, And he didn't promise one hundred percent returns a year. 537 00:25:54,759 --> 00:25:58,200 He promised to steady ten to twelve percent every single year, 538 00:25:58,279 --> 00:26:01,799 like clockwork. The volatility was zero. In the world of finance, 539 00:26:01,839 --> 00:26:04,160 that's the holy grail. It's not supposed to exist. 540 00:26:04,519 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: The famous split strike conversion strategy. He claimed he was 541 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,279 buying stocks and hedging them with options. It sounded complicated 542 00:26:11,279 --> 00:26:13,400 and plausible, but he wasn't doing any of it. 543 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 2: None of it. The trading floor on the seventeenth floor 544 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,519 of the Lipstick Building in Manhattan, it was a prop, 545 00:26:18,599 --> 00:26:20,200 it was a stage. The computer down there was just 546 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,119 printing out fake statements using data from yesterday's newspaper. 547 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:29,319 Speaker 1: And he used affinity fraud so effectively. He targeted Jewish charities, 548 00:26:29,559 --> 00:26:32,599 the country clubs in Palm Beach. He made it hard 549 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:33,519 to invest. 550 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 2: With him, right. You couldn't just call up and give 551 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,720 him money. You had to be invited, You had to 552 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,559 know someone, You had to practically beg him to take 553 00:26:39,599 --> 00:26:41,079 your money, and by. 554 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: Playing hard to get he completely bypassed their due diligence. 555 00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:48,519 The thinking was, if Bernie is willing to take my money, 556 00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:50,279 I must be one of the lucky ones. 557 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 2: No one wanted to ask the tough questions that might 558 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:53,799 get them kicked out of the club. 559 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,839 Speaker 1: And then the collapse two thousand and eight, the global 560 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,960 financial crisis hits the market tanks and everyone needs cash. 561 00:27:01,319 --> 00:27:03,519 They all tried to withdraw their money at once. They 562 00:27:03,519 --> 00:27:06,039 requested about seven billion dollars. 563 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 2: And Bernie only had a few hundred million left in 564 00:27:07,759 --> 00:27:08,079 the bank. 565 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: The tide went out, as they say, and everyone saw 566 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:11,279 that he was swimming naked. 567 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 2: The fallout was biblical, I mean, Eli Weisel's Foundation for 568 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:20,359 Holocaust Remembrance wiped out, Steven Spielberg's charity. Thousands and thousands 569 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,599 of retirees lost their entire life savings. 570 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: And the human toll. His son, Mark Madoff committed suicide 571 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,119 on the two year anniversary of his father's arrest. This 572 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:34,160 financial crime had a physical body count. It destroyed families, 573 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,200 and it broke the unspoken trust of the entire financial system. 574 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,720 It really did made Off. Was this clean shaven guy 575 00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:44,400 in a fine suit. Yeah, but a final case. It 576 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,559 puts a very very different face on fraud. 577 00:27:48,079 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 2: Hmm, A much darker one. H. H. 578 00:27:50,079 --> 00:27:52,279 Speaker 1: Holmes The Devil in the White City. 579 00:27:52,079 --> 00:27:57,079 Speaker 2: Eighteen ninety three, Chicago, the World's Columbian Exposition, The World's Fair. 580 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: Holmes is the archetype. He's the original creepycon. He builds 581 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,759 it huge hotel near the Fairgrounds, the World's Fair Hotel, 582 00:28:02,839 --> 00:28:05,160 but he funds the entire construction with fraud. 583 00:28:05,319 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 2: He's a grifter first and foremost. 584 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,839 Speaker 1: Absolutely, He cycles through contractors, firing them just before payday, 585 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,920 claiming their work was shoddy. He buys furniture and building 586 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,960 materials on credit and then hides them in secret rooms 587 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,240 so they can't be repossessed. 588 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 2: But the griff was just a means to an end. 589 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,920 It was funding a purpose built slaughterhouse, the Murder Castle, 590 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:24,960 as it came to be known. 591 00:28:25,279 --> 00:28:28,759 Speaker 1: He designed it with murderous intent from the beginning, gas 592 00:28:28,839 --> 00:28:31,079 jets in the hotel rooms that he could control from 593 00:28:31,079 --> 00:28:35,359 his office to asphyxiate his guests. Staircases that led to nowhere, 594 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,759 shoots that led from the upper floors directly to the basement. 595 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,079 Speaker 2: Where he had a kiln, an acid vat, and a 596 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:42,200 dissection table. 597 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: He would seduce women, often his own employees. He'd convince 598 00:28:45,759 --> 00:28:47,960 them to take out life insurance policies with him as 599 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,119 the beneficiary. He'd marry them and then they would just 600 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:53,200 vanish and he. 601 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 2: Would monetize every single part of the victim. He'd strip 602 00:28:57,039 --> 00:29:00,000 the flesh from their bodies and sell the articulated skeleton 603 00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:02,960 tends to medical schools. There was a huge demand at 604 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:03,279 the time. 605 00:29:03,359 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: So he gets the money from the insurance policy, the 606 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,960 money from selling the skeleton, and he's already taken all 607 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,799 their money while they were staying in his hotel. It's 608 00:29:10,119 --> 00:29:11,559 total perverse efficiency. 609 00:29:11,759 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 2: Holmes represents the absolute intersection of capitalism and psychopathy. He 610 00:29:17,039 --> 00:29:20,640 treated human beings purely as raw material to be processed 611 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,759 for profit. There was no line he wouldn't cross. He 612 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,039 even convinced his business partner, a man named Benjamin Pietzel, 613 00:29:27,319 --> 00:29:30,079 to fake his own death for an insurance scam, and 614 00:29:30,119 --> 00:29:32,599 then what happened, And then Holmes just decided it was 615 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,960 easier to actually kill him and his children instead. Why 616 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,559 bother faking it when real death is more convenient and 617 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:39,839 leaves fewer witnesses. 618 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,319 Speaker 1: It is the darkest possible conclusion to our list. From 619 00:29:44,319 --> 00:29:49,880 Bell Gibson's fake cancer blog to HH holmes Very real skeletons. 620 00:29:49,279 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 2: In the basement, it's a whole spectrum of predation. 621 00:29:52,119 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: So we've pulled on these ten threads and the tapestry 622 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,160 they form is It's terrifying. But I want to try 623 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,519 and synthesize this. What is the common DNA here? Is 624 00:30:02,559 --> 00:30:03,599 it just simple greed? 625 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: Greed is too simple an answer. I think it's narcissism, 626 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,960 malignant narcissism. In every single one of these cases, from 627 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,000 Annadelvi to made Off to Holmes, the scammer believes they 628 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,839 are exceptional. They believe the rules are for little people, 629 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,359 not for them. They rewrite reality to suit their own ego. 630 00:30:19,839 --> 00:30:22,440 Madeoff couldn't admit he was failing as a legitimate trader, 631 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,039 so he invented a new reality where he never ever lost. 632 00:30:25,559 --> 00:30:28,000 Belle Gibson couldn't accept that she was just a normal person, 633 00:30:28,079 --> 00:30:31,559 so she invented a tragic, heroic backstory to make herself special. 634 00:30:31,799 --> 00:30:34,039 Speaker 1: And then there's the other side of it, the suspension 635 00:30:34,039 --> 00:30:36,720 of disbelief. We talked about the very beginning. We want 636 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,119 to believe. We want the easy twelve percent returns, We 637 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,599 want the natural cure for cancer. We want the handsome 638 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,160 billionaire boyfriend who whisks us away on a private jet. 639 00:30:47,319 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 2: The con artist doesn't force their way in. They invite you. 640 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,519 They hold the door open to a fantasy you already 641 00:30:53,559 --> 00:30:56,359 want to live inside, and once you take that first 642 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,480 step across the threshold, it becomes very, very hard to. 643 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,759 Speaker 1: Admit you are the sunk cost fallacy. 644 00:31:01,799 --> 00:31:04,559 Speaker 2: Exactly, once you've told all your friends and family that 645 00:31:04,559 --> 00:31:07,000 you're dating a diamond Air or that you've found this 646 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,079 miracle cure for your illness, your own pride prevents you 647 00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:14,119 from seeing the red flags that start popping up. To 648 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,880 admit you were scammed is to admit you were a fool. 649 00:31:17,039 --> 00:31:18,839 Speaker 1: I have to share something that's a little embarrassing. While 650 00:31:18,839 --> 00:31:20,599 I was researching all of this, I got a text 651 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,519 message on my phone. Oh no, it's a USPS. We 652 00:31:24,559 --> 00:31:28,519 cannot deliver your package due to an incomplete address. Click 653 00:31:28,599 --> 00:31:32,279 here to update. And I clicked the link. I literally 654 00:31:32,319 --> 00:31:34,839 clicked it. I was waiting for a package. I caught 655 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,160 myself before I entered my credit card info, but for 656 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,759 three seconds I was in that hammock. I was vulnerable. 657 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,720 I wanted the problem to be solved easily. 658 00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:45,359 Speaker 2: And that's the point. We are all vulnerable. Intelligence doesn't 659 00:31:45,359 --> 00:31:47,799 protect you. In fact, sometimes it makes you more susceptible 660 00:31:48,039 --> 00:31:50,799 because you think you're too smart to be conned. Empathy 661 00:31:50,839 --> 00:31:54,599 makes you vulnerable. Greed makes you vulnerable. Fear makes you vulnerable. 662 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,519 Unless you are a complete robot, you have buttons that 663 00:31:58,559 --> 00:31:59,279 can be pushed. 664 00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:02,359 Speaker 1: So a final question for you and for everyone listening, 665 00:32:02,599 --> 00:32:04,880 and this is a thread I really want to leave dangling. 666 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:05,519 Speaker 2: Go for it. 667 00:32:05,759 --> 00:32:08,119 Speaker 1: If Bernie Madoff had died in two thousand and seven 668 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,559 before the crash, he would be remembered as a Wall 669 00:32:11,559 --> 00:32:15,079 Street legend, a titan of finance. If Bill Gibson had 670 00:32:15,119 --> 00:32:17,720 just stopped before the app launch, she'd just be another 671 00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:20,839 quirky blogger. Is the truth just the version of the 672 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,200 story that doesn't collapse. 673 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 2: That's a heavy question. History is written by the victors, 674 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,519 and sometimes the victors are just the best liars who 675 00:32:28,559 --> 00:32:29,519 haven't been caught yet. 676 00:32:29,799 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: And here's the kicker for us right now. Annadelvi is 677 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,200 a celebrity. Simon Leviev is a celebrity. We are sitting 678 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,400 here talking about them giving them oxygen. Are we the 679 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:46,799 audience complicit in this by consuming their stories on Netflix, 680 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,200 by following them on Instagram? Are we incentivizing the next 681 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,640 generation of con artists? Are we sending the message, Hey, 682 00:32:53,839 --> 00:32:55,640 even if you get caught, you'll get a book deal 683 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:56,079 out of it. 684 00:32:56,079 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 2: It's the fame monster. We claim to hate the sin, 685 00:32:59,559 --> 00:33:01,960 but we are absolutely obsessed with the sinner. 686 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: So we want to know what you think. Are we 687 00:33:04,559 --> 00:33:07,559 part of the problem by giving them this platform or 688 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,559 is exposing them? Talking about them like this the only 689 00:33:11,599 --> 00:33:14,119 way to inoculate ourselves against the next big con. 690 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,079 Speaker 2: Where is the line exactly? 691 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: Drop a comment, send us a tweet, tell us where 692 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:18,480 you draw. 693 00:33:18,279 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 2: The line, and maybe you know, Just for today, check 694 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,079 your bank statement, and for. 695 00:33:22,039 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: God's sake, verify the address on that package delivery text. 696 00:33:27,599 --> 00:33:29,359 Thank you for listening to thrilling threads. 697 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 2: Stay curious and stay skeptical. 698 00:33:31,519 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: See you next time.